Talking about Covenant

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Nosrat

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Feb 5, 2007, 5:08:34 AM2/5/07
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It is very sad that the followers of the erroneous path taken by the former
Hands of the Cause, under the leadership of Ruhiyyih Khánum, are distancing
themselves more and more from the true Faith of God, and violating the
Covenant, while everyday they are talking about it.

Moojan Momen, in an article which was posted to t.r.b. on 04/02/2007, under
the name: Piedmont N...@Spam.net, put forth his own opinion, expressed his
particular convictions, interpreted and explained the religion of God
according to his own view and opinion. He wrote:

"Second, the lesser covenant, which obliges individual Bahá'ís to accept
the leadership of Bahá'u'lláh's appointed successors and the
administrative institutions of the Faith."

While the first part of the above sentence is correct, if referring to the
interpreters of the word of God, i.e. the Center of the Covenant and
Guardians, as the Center of Cause, the second part is an erroneous and
unauthorized interpretation, this is what Abdu'l Bahá says:

"Bahá'u'lláh made a covenant concerning a promised One who will become
manifest after one thousand or thousands of years. He likewise, with His
Supreme Pen, entered into a great Covenant and Testament with all the
Bahá'ís whereby they were all commanded to follow the Center of the Covenant
after His departure, and turn not away even to a hair's breadth from obeying
Him.

In the Book of Aqdas, He has given positive command in two clear instances
and has explicitly appointed the Interpreter of the Book."
(Bahá'í World Faith, p. 358)
Also:

"As to the most great characteristic of the revelation of Bahá'u'lláh -- a
specific teaching not given by any of the Prophets of the past -- it is the
ordination and appointment of the Center of the Covenant. By this
appointment and provision He has safeguarded and protected the religion of
God against differences and schisms, making it impossible for any one to
create a new sect or faction of belief. To insure unity and agreement He has
entered into a Covenant with all the people of the world including the
Interpreter and Explainer of His teachings so that no one may interpret or
explain the religion of God according to his own view or opinion and thus
create a sect founded upon his individual understanding of the divine words.
The Book of the Covenant or Testament of Bahá'u'lláh is the means of
preventing such a possibility, for whosoever shall speak from the authority
of himself alone shall be degraded. Be ye informed and cognizant of this.

(Baha'i World Faith, p. 248)

Moojan wrote:

Firmness in the Covenant is one of the chief Bahá'í religious virtues and
includes, not just the acceptance of the legitimacy of the Bahá'í
institution, but much more general attitudes of loyalty and a whole-hearted
commitment to the Bahá'í Faith and Bahá'í community."

Again, the above sentence is misleading; there is no quarrel about firmness
in the Covenant (Obedience to the Guardians who are the centers of the Cause
and Interpreters of the word of God), but, what does he mean by "Baha'i
Institution" which he puts as the foundation of his erroneous and
unauthorized interpretation on the acceptance of their legitimacy?

Moojan also wrote:

"Challenging the authority of the center of the Bahá'í Faith is the most
serious spiritual offence that a Bahá'í can commit."

This is a pretence, since the writer is following the organization who is
challenging the authority of the Center of the Cause, the third Guardian of
the Baha'i Faith; he ignores the fact that only the Guardians are the Center
of the Cause (Head of the Bahá'í Faith).

Abdu'l Bahá says:

"Were it not for the protecting power of the Covenant to guard the
impregnable fort of the Cause of God, there would arise among the Bahá'ís,
in one day, a thousand different sects as was the case in former ages. But
in this Blessed Dispensation, for the sake of the permanency of the Cause of
God and the avoidance of dissension amongst the people of God, the Blessed
Beauty (may my soul be a sacrifice unto Him), has through the Supreme Pen
written the Covenant and the Testament; He appointed a Center, the Exponent
of the Book and the annuller of disputes. Whatever is written or said by Him
is conformable to the truth and under the protection of the Blessed Beauty.
He is infallible. The express purpose of this last Will and Testament is to
set aside disputes from the world."

(Bahá'í World Faith, p. 357)

Also the Master in his Will and Testament says:

"The mighty stronghold shall remain impregnable and safe through obedience
to him who is the guardian of the Cause of God. It is incumbent upon the
members of the House of Justice, upon all the Aghsan, the Afnan, the Hands
of the Cause of God to show their obedience, submissiveness and
subordination unto the guardian of the Cause of God, to turn unto him and be
lowly before Him. He that opposeth him hath opposed the True One, will make
a breach in the Cause of God, will subvert His word and will become a
manifestation of the Center of Sedition"

Nosrat


rossca...@shaw.ca

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Feb 6, 2007, 4:03:31 PM2/6/07
to


Dear Nosrat,

Your response to Piedmont exposes the devious manner by which sans-
Guardian Baha'is continually attempt to support their teaching that
their headless UHJ is the Center of the Cause of God, while there is
no such teaching in Holy Baha'i' Writings that even a legitimate
Universal House of Justice is the Center of the Cause of God, not to
mention a headless body such as theirs.

'Abdu'l-Baha' wrote in His sacred Will and Testament: "All must seek
guidance and turn unto the Center of the Cause and the House of
Justice." He did NOT say: 'All must seek guidance and turn unto the
Center of the Cause of God which is the House of Justice'. He did not
say that, and yet that is exactly what the bogus UHJ on Mt. Carmel is
teaching to the world.

He wrote: "...and the House of Justice"

The living Guardian of the Baha'i' Faith is the Center of the Cause of
God.

Ross

Jeffrey

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Feb 6, 2007, 7:28:11 PM2/6/07
to
Ross,

Note that Abdu'l-Baha wrote Personage, and did not refer to a
corporate entity or body:

"Inasmuch as there was no appointed explainer of the Book of Christ,
everyone made the claim to authority, saying, "This is the true
pathway and others are not." To ward off such dissensions as these and
prevent any person from creating a division or sect the Blessed
Perfection, Bahá'u'lláh, appointed a central authoritative Personage,
declaring Him to be the expounder of the Book."

Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 382

Jeffrey

Abraxas

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Feb 7, 2007, 1:32:07 AM2/7/07
to

> Moojan Momen, in an article which was posted to t.r.b. on 04/02/2007, under
> the name: Piedmont N...@Spam.net, put forth his own opinion, expressed his
> particular convictions, interpreted and explained...


Wow, what dire straits must the Haifan bahaim organization be in that
it is endlessly having to churn out the same regular bunch of mozdur
losers to take on new internet personas to defend its indefensible
cause (or, rather, defend the family business and stock). This
character came here claiming it had recently converted to bahaism. Now
we learn it is none other than Hojjat'ul-Baha' wa Baha'in Mulla Moojan
Momen. Whereas the other personas are quite willing to "lie for the
faith" and pretend to be non-bahaim, at least Piedmont/Momen will go
only half way and pretend to be a recent convert. What comedy! All in
all, though, this shows yet again - as if it needed any more
demonstration - that Bahaism (esp. the Haifan variety) spins around
the axis of lies, deceit and sleights of hand as an article of faith.
That the biggest and more powerful bahaim faction has to survive on
the foundation of lies and deciet on a daily basis shows the the very
bases this cult was built upon from the precedents already established
by its demon-prince and founder (la'antu'Llah 'aleyhi).

Looks like your stock is tumbling, O ye mozduran!

W

rossca...@shaw.ca

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Feb 7, 2007, 4:34:49 AM2/7/07
to

On Feb 6, 4:28 pm, "Jeffrey" <Jeffrey...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ross,
>
> Note that Abdu'l-Baha wrote Personage, and did not refer to a
> corporate entity or body:
>
> "Inasmuch as there was no appointed explainer of the Book of Christ,
> everyone made the claim to authority, saying, "This is the true
> pathway and others are not." To ward off such dissensions as these and
> prevent any person from creating a division or sect the Blessed
> Perfection, Bahá'u'lláh, appointed a central authoritative Personage,
> declaring Him to be the expounder of the Book."
>
> Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 382
>
> Jeffrey

Jeffrey,

That is a vital point of understanding that you have drawn to our
attention, that Bahá'u'lláh "appointed a central authoritative
Personage, declaring Him to be the expounder of the Book." In
paragraph 37 of His Will and Testament, 'Abdu'l-Baha' wrote: "...this
House of Justice hath power to enact laws that are not expressly
recorded in the Book." Its legitimate authority does not reach beyond
that which the Master wrote. And the Will and Testament, on page four
of WOB has been identified as "inseparable parts of one complete unit"
with the Most Holy Book. Thus the House of Justice has no authority
to enact laws related to Instructions of the Master expressly recorded
in His sacred and immutable Will and Testament.

Yet the sans-Guardian UHJ has done so. It has done just that. It has
appointed Counselors and has permitted the word to spread all around
the Baha'i community that their appointed Counselors are equivalent to
Hands of the Cause of God, which Hands of the Cause, "...must be
nominated and appointed by the guardian of the Cause of God." (W&T
paragraph 20) Appointing Hands of the Cause of God is a "prescribed
domain" of the Guardianship of the Bahá'í Faith, not the domain of a
Universal House of Justice, even a legitimate one. Shoghi Effendi
wrote authoritatively concerning the Guardianship and the Universal
House of Justice:

"Neither can, nor will ever, infringe upon the sacred and prescribed
domain of the other."

The Huququ'llah is another "prescribed domain" of the living Guardian
of the Bahá'í Faith upon which the bogus UHJ, yes it has, it has
infringed.

When the first of our Bahá'í Guardians, Shoghi Effendi, wrote that
"Neither can, nor will ever, infringe..." it is so very evident that
his words were speaking about a legitimate Universal House of Justice.

"Neither can, nor will ever,..."

The bogus UHJ has done and continues to "infringe" whereas a
legitimate Universal House of Justice, even as our first Guardian
stated, "nor will ever, infringe upon the sacred and prescribed domain
of the other."

Only a living Guardian of the Bahá'í Faith is empowered as the
expounder of the Words of God, Bahá'í Holy Writ and Holy Text. That
is the prescribed domain of the Guardianship of the Bahá'í Faith. The
bogus UHJ on Mt. Carmel has infringed upon that prescribed domain by
interpreting Holy Instructions related to the duty of a Guardian to
choose and appoint his successor. As a result of that infringement,
that bogus body has left its followers without a living Guardian,
without an interpreter of Bahá'í Holy Writ.

In fact, the final word on all matters/questions related to the
Guardianship of the Bahá'í Faith is "prescribed domain" of a living
Guardian of the Bahá'í Faith, because no other human has authority to
interpret questions related to the Guardianship, including
explanations written by the first of our Guardians, Shoghi Effendi.

And that includes the only Proclamation issued by the first Guardian,
Shoghi Effendi, during his 36-year ministry, his January 9th, 1951
Proclamation to "All National Assemblies of East and West" in which
Proclamation he established the embryonic Universal House of Justice,
and delineated its course of development which he fully intended it to
experience.

To diminish the importance of that Proclamation and to eliminate
stages of development of that embryonic Universal House of Justice,
which stages were proclaimed and delineated by the first of our Bahá'í
Guardians, was illegal interpretation of his intent as Guardian,
illegal interpretation of the Proclamation itself and its authority.

That illegal interpretation was an infringement upon the prescribed
domain of Guardians of the Bahá'í Faith, and the current sans-Guardian
Bahá'í administration on Mt. Carmel continues endorsement of that
infringement of the "prescribed domain" of the Guardian of the Bahá'í
Faith, thus identifying itself as a body which can and does "infringe"
upon the domain of "the other" while simultaneously facing the very
words of the first of our Guardians, Shoghi Effendi, who clearly wrote
that:

"Neither can, nor will ever, infringe upon the sacred and prescribed
domain of the other.",

thus identifying itself as totally illegitimate in the true Bahá'í
Faith.

Ross

Nosrat

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Feb 8, 2007, 8:49:03 AM2/8/07
to
Dear Ross,

You wrote:

"... sans-Guardian Baha'is continually attempt to support their teaching


that
their headless UHJ is the Center of the Cause of God, while there is
no such teaching in Holy Baha'i' Writings that even a legitimate
Universal House of Justice is the Center of the Cause of God, not to
mention a headless body such as theirs.

'Abdu'l-Baha' wrote in His sacred Will and Testament: "All must seek
guidance and turn unto the Center of the Cause and the House of
Justice." He did NOT say: 'All must seek guidance and turn unto the
Center of the Cause of God which is the House of Justice'. He did not
say that, and yet that is exactly what the bogus UHJ on Mt. Carmel is
teaching to the world.

He wrote: "...and the House of Justice"

The living Guardian of the Baha'i' Faith is the Center of the Cause of God."

You are right, according to the Holly Baha'i Writings only the Guardian of
the Cause of God is the Center of the Cause of God and even a real and
legitimate Universal House of Justice Which: "Guardian of the Cause of God
is its sacred head and the distinguished member for life of that body." is
not referred as the Center of the Cause.

It is remarkable that Master in his sacred Will and Testament in the same
paragraph which you quoted from, strongly warns about erroneous and
unauthorized interpretations.

"Beware lest anyone falsely interpret these words, and like unto them that
have broken the Covenant after the Day of Ascension (of Bahá'u'lláh) advance
a pretext, raise the standard of revolt, wax stubborn and open wide the door
of false interpretation. To none is given the right to put forth his own
opinion or express his particular conviction. All must seek guidance and


turn unto the Center of the Cause and the House of Justice."

Regards,

Nosrat


<rossca...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:1170795810....@a34g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...


On Feb 5, 2:08 am, "Nosrat" <Nos...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> It is very sad that the followers of the erroneous path taken by the
former

> Hands of the Cause, under the leadership of Ruhiyyih Khnum, are distancing


> themselves more and more from the true Faith of God, and violating the
> Covenant, while everyday they are talking about it.
>
> Moojan Momen, in an article which was posted to t.r.b. on 04/02/2007,
under
> the name: Piedmont N...@Spam.net, put forth his own opinion, expressed his
> particular convictions, interpreted and explained the religion of God
> according to his own view and opinion. He wrote:
>

> "Second, the lesser covenant, which obliges individual Bah 's to accept
> the leadership of Bah 'u'llh's appointed successors and the


> administrative institutions of the Faith."
>
> While the first part of the above sentence is correct, if referring to the
> interpreters of the word of God, i.e. the Center of the Covenant and
> Guardians, as the Center of Cause, the second part is an erroneous and

> unauthorized interpretation, this is what Abdu'l Bah says:
>
> "Bah'u'll h made a covenant concerning a promised One who will become


> manifest after one thousand or thousands of years. He likewise, with His
> Supreme Pen, entered into a great Covenant and Testament with all the

> Bah' s whereby they were all commanded to follow the Center of the


Covenant
> after His departure, and turn not away even to a hair's breadth from
obeying
> Him.
>
> In the Book of Aqdas, He has given positive command in two clear instances
> and has explicitly appointed the Interpreter of the Book."

> (Bah' World Faith, p. 358)
> Also:
>
> "As to the most great characteristic of the revelation of Bah'u'll h -- a


> specific teaching not given by any of the Prophets of the past -- it is
the
> ordination and appointment of the Center of the Covenant. By this
> appointment and provision He has safeguarded and protected the religion of
> God against differences and schisms, making it impossible for any one to
> create a new sect or faction of belief. To insure unity and agreement He
has
> entered into a Covenant with all the people of the world including the
> Interpreter and Explainer of His teachings so that no one may interpret or
> explain the religion of God according to his own view or opinion and thus
> create a sect founded upon his individual understanding of the divine
words.

> The Book of the Covenant or Testament of Bah'u'll h is the means of


> preventing such a possibility, for whosoever shall speak from the
authority
> of himself alone shall be degraded. Be ye informed and cognizant of this.
>
> (Baha'i World Faith, p. 248)
>
> Moojan wrote:
>

> Firmness in the Covenant is one of the chief Bah' religious virtues and
> includes, not just the acceptance of the legitimacy of the Bah'


> institution, but much more general attitudes of loyalty and a
whole-hearted

> commitment to the Bah' Faith and Bah' community."


>
> Again, the above sentence is misleading; there is no quarrel about
firmness
> in the Covenant (Obedience to the Guardians who are the centers of the
Cause
> and Interpreters of the word of God), but, what does he mean by "Baha'i
> Institution" which he puts as the foundation of his erroneous and
> unauthorized interpretation on the acceptance of their legitimacy?
>
> Moojan also wrote:
>

> "Challenging the authority of the center of the Bah' Faith is the most
> serious spiritual offence that a Bah' can commit."


>
> This is a pretence, since the writer is following the organization who is
> challenging the authority of the Center of the Cause, the third Guardian
of
> the Baha'i Faith; he ignores the fact that only the Guardians are the
Center

> of the Cause (Head of the Bah' Faith).


>
> Abdu'l Bah says:
>
> "Were it not for the protecting power of the Covenant to guard the

> impregnable fort of the Cause of God, there would arise among the Bah' s,


> in one day, a thousand different sects as was the case in former ages. But
> in this Blessed Dispensation, for the sake of the permanency of the Cause
of
> God and the avoidance of dissension amongst the people of God, the Blessed
> Beauty (may my soul be a sacrifice unto Him), has through the Supreme Pen
> written the Covenant and the Testament; He appointed a Center, the
Exponent
> of the Book and the annuller of disputes. Whatever is written or said by
Him
> is conformable to the truth and under the protection of the Blessed
Beauty.
> He is infallible. The express purpose of this last Will and Testament is
to
> set aside disputes from the world."
>

> (Bah' World Faith, p. 357)

Kent Johnson

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Feb 8, 2007, 12:38:04 PM2/8/07
to
testing my newsgroup settings.


hong...@gmail.com

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Feb 10, 2007, 6:17:56 PM2/10/07
to
Hi, Nosrat.

Please forgive me. You wrote and quoted material whose English
confuses me. The main problem I have is that your quote seems to begin
with the word, "Second" and then you say the first part of the above
sentence is correct. The quote does not seem to be a complete
sentence. Do you mean all of what you are quoting is incorrect, in
your opinion? It might help if you provided also the first part of the
quote. Perhaps you can explain what you mean. Sorry again for not
understanding.

Peace,

Hong

Nosrat

unread,
Feb 11, 2007, 8:29:03 AM2/11/07
to
Dear Hong,

Thanks for your question,

What I quoted is a complete sentence, which starts with capital S for
"Second" and ends with full stop. Please look at it again:

"Second, the lesser covenant, which obliges individual Bahá'ís to accept
the leadership of Bahá'u'lláh's appointed successors and the
administrative institutions of the Faith."

In the above sentence you may distinct (Bahá'u'lláh's appointed successors)
and (administrative institutions of the Faith).

This is the URL of the message:

http://groups.google.com.au/group/talk.religion.bahai/browse_thread/thread/4
f2ae9ef589e93b7/3ffcc8cdd3add3c6?hl=en#3ffcc8cdd3add3c6

Please read and compare it with what Shoghi Effendi said in this regard:

"As regards the meaning of the Bahá'í Covenant: The Guardian considers the
existence of two forms of Covenant both of which are explicitly mentioned in
the literature of the Cause. First is the covenant that every Prophet makes
with humanity or, more definitely, with His people that they will accept and
follow the coming Manifestation Who will be the reappearance of His reality.
The second form of covenant is such as the one Bahá'u'lláh made with His
people that they should accept the Master. This is merely to establish and
strengthen the succession of the series of Lights that appear after every
Manifestation. Under the same category falls the covenant the Master made
with the Bahá'ís that they should accept His administration after Him..."

(Lights of Guidance, p. 180)

It is regrettable that Moojan had ignored this complete and clear
explanation of the first Guardian of the Cause of God and put forth his own
unauthorized and erroneous interpretation.

To know more about the "succession of the series of Lights" you may read the
interpretation of the first Guardian about "this is the day which will not
be followed by the night":

"The Guardians are the evidence of the maturity of mankind in the sense that
at long last men have progressed to the point of having one world, and of
needing one world management for human affairs. In the spiritual realm they
have also reached the point where God could leave, in human hands (i.e. the
Guardians'), guided directly by the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh, as the Master
states in His Will, the affairs of His Faith for this Dispensation. This is
what is meant by 'this is the day which will not be followed by the night'.
In this Dispensation, Divine guidance flows on to us in this world after the
Prophet's ascension, through first the Master, and then the Guardians. If a
person can accept Bahá'u'lláh's function, it should not present any
difficulty to them to also accept what He has ordained a divinely guided
individual in matters pertaining to His Faith." (Lights of Guidance, p.
310)

And to know about the Master's administration you may read his sacrad Will
and Testament to see that how his administration revolves around the
Guardian of the Cause of God, who is the Center of the Cause, the
Interpreter of the words of God, Sign of God, Expounder of the words of God
and Head of Universal House of Justice.


Regards,

Nosrat


<hong...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1171149476.5...@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
Hi, Nosrat.

Please forgive me. You wrote and quoted material whose English
confuses me. The main problem I have is that your quote seems to begin
with the word, "Second" and then you say the first part of the above
sentence is correct. The quote does not seem to be a complete
sentence. Do you mean all of what you are quoting is incorrect, in
your opinion? It might help if you provided also the first part of the
quote. Perhaps you can explain what you mean. Sorry again for not
understanding.

Peace,

Hong

On Feb 5, 5:08 am, "Nosrat" <Nos...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> It is very sad that the followers of the erroneous path taken by the
former

> Hands of the Cause, under the leadership of Ruhiyyih Khnum, are distancing


> themselves more and more from the true Faith of God, and violating the
> Covenant, while everyday they are talking about it.
>
> Moojan Momen, in an article which was posted to t.r.b. on 04/02/2007,
under
> the name: Piedmont N...@Spam.net, put forth his own opinion, expressed his
> particular convictions, interpreted and explained the religion of God
> according to his own view and opinion. He wrote:
>

> "Second, the lesser covenant, which obliges individual Bah 's to accept
> the leadership of Bah 'u'llh's appointed successors and the


> administrative institutions of the Faith."
>
> While the first part of the above sentence is correct, if referring to the
> interpreters of the word of God, i.e. the Center of the Covenant and
> Guardians, as the Center of Cause, the second part is an erroneous and

> unauthorized interpretation, this is what Abdu'l Bah says:


diamondsouled

unread,
Feb 11, 2007, 1:36:43 PM2/11/07
to

Hello Nosrat,

Although I agree that the Hands did not have the authority to declare
the Guardianship Bada; Ruhiyyih openly admitted this:

How to assume the reins of authority, with no document to support us,
other than the general theological statements about the Hands?

(Custodians, Ministry of the Custodians, p. 9)

... Neither have any of the pretenders to a continuing Guardianship
had any legitimate authority either.

The on-going Guardianship was very clearly to be a hereditary one, it
doesn't take rocket science or brain surgery to see that Mason Remey
did not meet this hereditary requirement by any stretch of the
imagination.

Both Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi made it very clear that any on-going
Guardianship was to be a hereditary one:

Divorced from the institution of the Guardianship the World Order of
Bahá'u'lláh would be mutilated and permanently deprived of that
hereditary principle which, as 'Abdu'l-Bahá has written, has been
invariably upheld by the Law of God.

(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 148)

"HEREDITARY PRINCIPLE", plain and simple. That this hereditary
principle clearly no longer exists and the fact that the world order
of Baha'u'llah is in deed and in fact mutilated is denied by all those
who claim to be Baha'i regardless of which of the nine sects of
Baha'ism they belong to.

Thems the facts.

Denying the facts only deludes oneself, better to put such self
delusion behind oneself once and for all. Such Abrahamic, patriarchal
religion is quickly becoming more of a liability to continued life on
this planet than it is a benefit. Better to leave such antiquated
religiousity in the past where such obsolescent, life and earth
denying, anachronisms belong.

Yours

Larry Rowe

Baha'i Censorship - See Website

unread,
Feb 12, 2007, 8:31:31 AM2/12/07
to
Larry,

You say below "the fact that the world order of Baha'u'llah is in


deed and in fact mutilated is denied by all those who claim to be
Baha'i regardless of which of the nine sects of Baha'ism they
belong to."

Actually, there are at least two Bahai denominations that do not
look to the fraudulent will and testament of Abdu'l-Baha, written
by Shoghi Effendi or someone else in his family, seeking worldly
power and wealth. The results of that fraudulent will have been
witnessed and experienced now by generations of Bahais. I am
sorry that you too have been personally impacted by it.

I believe, however, that the Faith of Baha'u'llah is beyond any
one interpretation of it, especially one that has demonstrated
so thoroughly, over so many decades, how far astray it has gone
from the Teachings.

--
Frederick Glaysher
The Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/

See 2007 - Lawsuit by Wilmette NSA Against Other Denominations
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/


"diamondsouled" <ro...@northwestel.net> wrote in message
news:1171219003.8...@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...

hong...@gmail.com

unread,
Feb 12, 2007, 2:52:03 PM2/12/07
to
Hi, Nosrat.

I looked at it again and it still looks to me like a clause and not a
sentence. There is no main verb, only a secondary verb coming after
the word which. What is quoted from Lights of Guidance page 180 has
complete sentences and helps me to understand. I'll study the original
and I hope I'll get it. I'll try to respond in the next few days to
let you know I understood you and to share my opinion.

Peace,

Hong

On Feb 11, 8:29 am, "Nosrat" <Nos...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> Dear Hong,
>
> Thanks for your question,
>
> What I quoted is a complete sentence, which starts with capital S for
> "Second" and ends with full stop. Please look at it again:
>
> "Second, the lesser covenant, which obliges individual Bahá'ís to accept
> the leadership of Bahá'u'lláh's appointed successors and the
> administrative institutions of the Faith."
>
> In the above sentence you may distinct (Bahá'u'lláh's appointed successors)
> and (administrative institutions of the Faith).
>
> This is the URL of the message:
>

> http://groups.google.com.au/group/talk.religion.bahai/browse_thread/t...

Nosrat

unread,
Feb 13, 2007, 7:09:03 AM2/13/07
to
Hello Larry,

You wrote:

".the Hands did not have the authority to declare


the Guardianship Bada; Ruhiyyih openly admitted this"

This is completely right, but lest forget that NOBODY has the authority to
declare the Guardianship Bada i.e. the Guardianship has come to end (of
course this includes yourself as well); I think other than the next
manifestation of God only the last Guardian of the Baha'i Faith will be able
to pronounce the end of Guardianship, but this will not happen sooner than
the lapse of one thousand years.

It is necessary to remind you that after passing of the first Guardian of
the Cause of God only Mason Remey by the virtue of his legitimate
appointment as the Head of the embryo of the Universal House of Justice
rightfully proclaimed his Guardianship and there were no other claimants to
the Guardianship.


From what you wrote it is evident that your perceptive regarding the
meanings of the word hereditary is limited to biological, genetic meaning or
received or passing by reason of birth while this word has wider range of
meanings, according to Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

"1 a : genetically transmitted or transmittable from parent to offspring
b : characteristic of or fostered by one's predecessors
2 a : received or passing by inheritance or required to pass by inheritance
or by reason of birth b : having title or possession through inheritance or
by reason of birth
3 : of a kind established by tradition <hereditary enemies>
4 : of or relating to inheritance or heredity"

In law, inheritance means: succession to the real and personal property of a
decedent. Inheritance may be by will or, in absence of a will, by operation
of the statutes governing intestacy.

Focusing on government, ruling systems and administration, hereditary
principle stands in opposite of electoral systems. In a hereditary system
each successor is chosen and appointed by the predecessor, this is the
principle that master in his sacrad Will and Testament commands:

"O ye beloved of the Lord! It is incumbent upon the Guardian of the Cause of
God to appoint in his own life-time him that shall become his successor,
that differences may not arise after his passing."

Regards,

Nosrat

"diamondsouled" <ro...@northwestel.net> wrote in message
news:1171219003.8...@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...

Hello Nosrat,

Although I agree that the Hands did not have the authority to declare
the Guardianship Bada; Ruhiyyih openly admitted this:

How to assume the reins of authority, with no document to support us,
other than the general theological statements about the Hands?

(Custodians, Ministry of the Custodians, p. 9)

... Neither have any of the pretenders to a continuing Guardianship
had any legitimate authority either.

The on-going Guardianship was very clearly to be a hereditary one, it
doesn't take rocket science or brain surgery to see that Mason Remey
did not meet this hereditary requirement by any stretch of the
imagination.

Both Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi made it very clear that any on-going
Guardianship was to be a hereditary one:

Divorced from the institution of the Guardianship the World Order of

Bah'u'll h would be mutilated and permanently deprived of that
hereditary principle which, as 'Abdu'l-Bah has written, has been

rosen...@yahoo.com

unread,
Feb 13, 2007, 7:42:56 AM2/13/07
to

Nima...Please...please,

Make up your mind! In another posting you address the man as" Dear
Moojan Momen" and invite him for a public debate and here you call hin
Mulla Moojan. You either respect the man or you don't.Period

Maral

Abraxas

unread,
Feb 13, 2007, 10:05:21 PM2/13/07
to
Minor MOZDUR ranted:

> Make up your mind! In another posting you address the man as" Dear
> Moojan Momen" and invite him for a public debate and here you call hin
> Mulla Moojan. You either respect the man or you don't.Period
>
> Maral

Piss off back to your fjord, idio, or answer the question as to why
when at a time you bahaim are claiming persecution and cultural
genocide in Iran, Kavian Sadeghzade-Milani, Dr Meshkin and assorted
Persian ao-holes are presently *in* Iran!

W

Abraxas

unread,
Feb 13, 2007, 10:06:52 PM2/13/07
to
Minor MOZDUR ranted:

> Make up your mind! In another posting you address the man as" Dear
> Moojan Momen" and invite him for a public debate and here you call hin
> Mulla Moojan. You either respect the man or you don't.Period
>
> Maral

Piss off back to your fjord, idiot, or answer the question as to why


when at a time you bahaim are claiming persecution and cultural
genocide in Iran, Kavian Sadeghzade-Milani, Dr Meshkin and assorted
Persian ao-holes are presently *in* Iran!

As for Momen, as far as I am concerned, he can go fuck himself! But I
am gracious enough to allow him to do it publically with me
facilitating the opportunity for his self-fucking ;-)

W

Nosrat

unread,
Feb 16, 2007, 3:18:24 AM2/16/07
to

Abdu'l Baha in all his writings concerning the Head of the Faith, referring
to: Interpreter of the words of God, Sign of God, Expounder of the words of
God, Head of the Universal House of Justice, Guardian of the Cause of God
and his successor; clearly specifies a singular living person. We can see
the same approach in the writings of the first Guardian of the Cause of God.

Shoghi Effendi wrote:

"Moreover, he who symbolizes the hereditary principle in this Dispensation
has been made the interpreter of the words of its Author, and ceases
consequently, by virtue of the actual authority vested in him, to be the
figurehead invariably associated with the prevailing systems of
constitutional monarchies."

(The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 153)


Nosrat


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