Lepers with Healthy People
george.fleming2
" It is possible that some of the western friends, with remarkable naivete,
do not grasp the fact that there is absolutely nothing keeping those have
broken the Covenant, whether Baha'u'llah's or the master's, out of the Cause
of God except their own inner spirtually sick condition. If they were sound,
instead of diseased, and wanted to enter the service of our Faith , they
would apply directly to the Guardian (or today the Universal House) and he
would be able to adjudge of their sincerity and , if sincere would welcome
them into the ranks of the faithful as he didwith Sydney Sprague.
Unfortunately a man who is ill is not made well just by asserting there is
nothing wrong with him! Facts actual states, are what count. probably no
group of people in the world have softer tounges, or proclaim more loudly
their innocence, than those who in their heart of hearts, and by their very
act, are enemies of the Center of the Covenant. The master well knew this,
and that is why He said we must shun their company, but pray for them. If
you put a leper in a room with healthy people, he cannot catch their health:
on the contrary they are very likely to catch his horrible ailment.
(from a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to the national Spirtual
Assembly of the United States, April 11, 1949)
Freethought110
whole life demonizing his own as well as others to the point that when he
died, he had only one loved one at his side (and even that is questionable).
Shoghi Effendi was the greatest modern spiritual leper who ever drew breath
and history will judge him so.
--
Freethought110
"george.fleming2" <george....@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:B9867E99.6D92%george....@btinternet.com...
Dermod Ryder
"george.fleming2" <george....@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:B9867E99.6D92%george....@btinternet.com...
Great first post to TRB, George!
But do tell us, what has led you into this den of iniquity to
associate with the sundry thought criminals and lepers that are here
present?
It seems pretty obvious that you regard us in this way if this lengthy
quotation from the dreary Guardian is anything to go by. Damnit - the
man couldn't even follow the instructions of the W&T in appointing a
successor and in so doing, did the very thing his grandfather warned
of - he left difference and schism in his wake! Yet the BIGS quote ad
nauseam from words mostly written on his behalf.
Considering this, one wonders what he was doing with his time.
Yours Aye!
The Reaper
george.fleming2
Literature Written by Enemies of the Faith
"In reply to your letter of September 20 1975 the Universal House of Justice
instructs us to say that friends should be advised to ignore these books and
any similar ones which might be written by enimes of the Faith. There should
certainly be no attempt made to destroy or remove such books from libraries.
On the other hand ther is no need at all for the friends to aquire them and,
indeed, the best plan is to ignore them intirely.
in article ajqthu$1diuq4$1...@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de, Dermod Ryder at
Grim_Re...@btinternet.com wrote on 19/8/02 1:47 pm:
--
To get random signatures put text files into a folder called ³Random
Signatures² into your Preferences folder.
Michael McKenny
You shared with us the hilarious post which follows. You may be unaware
just how funny it reads. As the consultation took place leading up to the
formation of this newsgroup, I said then that fundamentalist fears of CBs
being able to post here were anachronistic and made the Faith look
idiotic, besides being anti-democratic and totalitarian, in the eyes of
any rational observer. Just as if the US president were to issue the
following announcement:
"My fellow Americans, it is my duty as your democratically elected
president, your constitutionally determined leader, to draw to your
attention the fact that there is at this moment in France a guy claiming
to be the legitimate Emperor of these United States, and, for the good of
the Union, I feel impelled to urge you not to read anything he says, or
to discuss the issue with those who support him, because, if you were to
do that, then, YOU'D BELIEVE HIM."
The newspapers, radio and TV would quite rightly have a jolly fun time
with any such statement. That Baha'i leaders are supposed to be better
than mere mundane ones, only renders such idiocy all the more laughable
when it emerges from their allegedly infallible lips.
To parking the horse and buggy where they belong.
To putting to permanent sleep the concept of heretic and unclean.
To the elevating, mature and rational spiritual principles of the age
of human harmony.
To tolerance and understanding.
To the Future, Michael.
--
"My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard."
(Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2)
george.fleming2
Subject: Proposed newsgroup
From: "Baha'i World Centre"
Transmitted by email
TO: xxxx
DATE: 14 October 1997
U.S.A.
Dear xxxx,
The Universal House of Justice has received your two email messages of 6
October 1997 regarding the proposed newsgroup "talk.religion.bahai", and we
have been asked to reply.
The House of Justice does not feel that it can comment on the validity or
appropriateness of various reasons for voting for or against the proposed
newsgroup. Individual Baha'is who are interested in the matter must come to
their own decision, based upon the dictates of their conscience and their
understanding of the principles of the Faith.
In general, the House of Justice has no objection to Baha'is' participating
in public, unmoderated discussions about the Faith, whether those
discussions take place in person or through some form of electronic
communication. The wisdom of participating in particular discussions, must,
of necessity, depend upon circumstances prevailing at the time. When,
through such discussions, the Faith is attacked or erroneous information
about it is disseminated, it may become necessary for individual Baha'is to
actively defend it. In some circumstances, however, to avoid participating
in argumentative exchanges, attracting attention to enemies of the Faith, or
engaging Covenant-breakers, it will be more appropriate to withdraw from the
discussion. While the institutions of the Faith may, on occasion, find it
necessary to offer the friends guidance related to their participation in
particular discussions, generally this, too, is a matter left to the
individual.
You are free to share this advice, electronically or otherwise, if you feel
it appropriate.
Department of the Secretariat
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Transmitted by email
TO: Mr. xxxx, DATE: 19 December 1997
MESSAGE:
The Universal House of Justice has asked us to reply as follows to your
email of 20 November 1997 concerning the proposed Internet newsgroup
"talk.religion.bahai."
To a previous inquiry about the proposal addressed by an individual to the
House of Justice, we conveyed the following reply on its behalf:
The House of Justice does not feel that it can comment on the validity or
appropriateness of various reasons for voting for or against the proposed
newsgroup. Individual Baha'is who are interested in the matter must come to
their own decision, based upon the dictates of their conscience and their
understanding of the principles of the Faith.
The clear purpose of this statement was to indicate that the House of
Justice did not wish to get involved in this matter, since it feels that the
friends should not need its guidance in this instance and are free to make
their own decision.
Department of the Secretariat
in article newscache$jnd31h$ztt1$1...@elise.onthenet.com.au, Freethought110 at Freetho...@bohemian.org wrote on 19/8/02 1:18 pm:
george.fleming2
>
Robin Peters
>whole life demonizing his own as well as others to the point that when he
>died, he had only one loved one at his side (and even that is questionable).
>
>Shoghi Effendi was the greatest modern spiritual leper who ever drew breath
>and history will judge him so.
Not to mention very power-hungry, IMHO (oh, dear, watch the fundie
flamethrowers come out on this one). Shoghi Effendi tossed out just about every
one of his male relatives that could have succeeded him as Guardian. And he did
indeed break his grandfather's unwritten law by failing to leave a Last Will
and Testament.
Happy fighting.
Robin Peters
http://www.epinions.com/content_2814812292/stf_~1
"Record casualties - my wits, as in 'frightened out of.'"
Leonard McCoy, MD, ship's surgeon, USS Enterprise
http://www.epinions.com/user-kidnykid
http://www.epinions.com/content_2796003460
Robin Peters
>Great first post to TRB, George!
>
>But do tell us, what has led you into this den of iniquity to
>associate with the sundry thought criminals and lepers that are here
>present?
>
>It seems pretty obvious that you regard us in this way if this lengthy
>quotation from the dreary Guardian is anything to go by. Damnit - the
>man couldn't even follow the instructions of the W&T in appointing a
>successor and in so doing, did the very thing his grandfather warned
>of - he left difference and schism in his wake! Yet the BIGS quote ad
>nauseam from words mostly written on his behalf.
>
>Considering this, one wonders what he was doing with his time
Good questions all, Dermod.
George, are you game for explaining yourself here? Or will you continue to post
the same rants and raves ad nauseam?
george.fleming2
do not grasp the fact that there is absolutely nothing keeping those have
broken the Covenant, whether Baha'u'llah's or the master's, out of the Cause
of God except their own inner spirtually sick condition. If they were sound,
instead of diseased, and wanted to enter the service of our Faith , they
would apply directly to the Guardian (or today the Universal House) and he
would be able to adjudge of their sincerity and , if sincere would welcome
them into the ranks of the faithful as he didwith Sydney Sprague.
Unfortunately a man who is ill is not made well just by asserting there is
nothing wrong with him! Facts actual states, are what count. probably no
group of people in the world have softer tounges, or proclaim more loudly
their innocence, than those who in their heart of hearts, and by their very
act, are enemies of the Center of the Covenant. The master well knew this,
and that is why He said we must shun their company, but pray for them. If
you put a leper in a room with healthy people, he cannot catch their health:
on the contrary they are very likely to catch his horrible ailment.
(from a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to the national Spirtual
Assembly of the United States, April 11, 1949)
in article 20020819150009...@mb-cd.aol.com, Robin Peters at
snoop...@aol.comspamness wrote on 19/8/02 7:00 pm:
--
Milissa
Please don't take this the wrong way, but I wish the Guardian hadn't
written such things.
> " It is possible that some of the western friends, with remarkable naivete,
> do not grasp the fact that there is absolutely nothing keeping those have
> broken the Covenant, whether Baha'u'llah's or the master's, out of the Cause
> of God except their own inner spirtually sick condition.
You don't think Shoghi Effendi's sometimes "holier than thou" attitude
was part of it? I mean, some of his family were declared CBs for
merely wanting to be able to still visit Mom. Do Baha'is acknowledge
at all that Shoghi Effendi had anything to do with creating such a
hostile environment? For example, the Archives building at the World
Centre sits on land that Shoghi Effendi got the Israeli government to
seize from his aunt and she was never paid! (forget the fact that the
woman didn't want to sell in the first place)
>If they were sound,
> instead of diseased, and wanted to enter the service of our Faith , they
> would apply directly to the Guardian (or today the Universal House) and he
> would be able to adjudge of their sincerity and , if sincere would welcome
> them into the ranks of the faithful as he didwith Sydney Sprague.
From what I can gather, Sydney Sprague's only *violation* was that he
refused to leave his wife, as her family had been declared CBers. It
is hard for me to put him in the same category as someone who tried to
poison a manifestation.
Snippage
>probably no
> group of people in the world have softer tounges, or proclaim more loudly
> their innocence, than those who in their heart of hearts, and by their very
> act, are enemies of the Center of the Covenant.
Except for the group falsely accused!
> The master well knew this,
> and that is why He said we must shun their company, but pray for them. If
> you put a leper in a room with healthy people, he cannot catch their health:
> on the contrary they are very likely to catch his horrible ailment.
Oh I hate these kinds of metaphors. It seems so cold.
Peace,
Milissa
george.fleming2
612 Reference is made to your letter of April 8th in which you ask: Does a
displinary action for disobedience to the Guardian carry the same
implications as Covenant Breaking of an ideological order? There is no
distintion between the two concepts. All Covenant Breakers, regardless of
the nature of their disobedience to the Covenant should be treated exctly
the same" (TO US NSA FROM THE UNIVERSAL HOUSE JULY 19TH 1964).
in article e37a2ae4.0208...@posting.google.com, Milissa at
mili...@yahoo.com wrote on 19/8/02 7:08 pm:
--
Robin Peters
I've been emailing selected posts of yours to your ISP - there's an email addy
at the end of every post, and it starts with news-complaints@(the name of your
ISP).com.
This has got to stop. Your ISP is better equipped to deal with you than I am.
However, I will say one last thing here. Do you really think your technique is
winning converts to the Baha'i faith?
Freethought110
--
Freethought110
"george.fleming2" <george....@btinternet.com> wrote in message news:B986FC75.6E9C%george....@btinternet.com...
george.fleming2
> talk/alt religion bahai are Covenant breaking newsgroups
>
609: Bahai's Cannot associate with Those who have left the Faith and are
associating with Covenant breakers. (Page 185 Lights of Guidance).
There is no excuse for believers continuing to associate with...and those
who knowing everything, still insist on doing so, should be shunned by their
fellow Baha'is. The same applies to people who have left the Cause and
associate with. The point is that if the believers iknow and meet with
people who are aquainted with Covenant Breakers there is no harm in this ,
for such indivduals are not Baha'is and have nothing to do with the issues
concerned. But those who have left the Cause, knowingly all, about such
matters (AS ALL THE DISSIDENTS ON TALK/ALT RELIGION BAHAI) and deliberately
associate with Covenant breakers (like Joel J. Marangella below) are aware
of what they do, and we must not associate with them at all. It is for the
Local Assembly, guided by the NSA, to enforce such decisions and protect the
Cause in its area of Jurisdition".
"The friends should, without too much dwelling on these negative things, be
made to understand that some people are spirtually sick and that their
disease is alas contagious. Some recover from it , as did MR....whose heart
could not rest till he returned to the fold; others do not. (LIKE THE
HARDENED BUNCH OF DISSIDENTS ON TALK RELIGION BAHA'I)< The Master and
Baha'u'llah have taught us that associating with these souls is not likely
to heal any of them at all, but on the contrary exposes one to grave danger
of contagion. The history of the Faith has proved this over and over again.
The only way we can prove to such people that they are wrong is to cencure
their conduct.; if we sympathise with them we only fortify their perversity
and waywardness"(On behalf of the Guardian Lights of Guidance page 185)
>
> Joel J. Marangella calls himself the third Guardian and uses these groups to
> attack the Baha'i Faith.
>
>
> <jm...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> Re: INEXCUSABLE MULTIPLE FAILURES OF THE HANDS i
>
>
> in article 189ac3e8.02072...@posting.google.com, Sufi Baha'i at
> pe...@capebyron.com wrote on 29/7/02 9:46 PM:
>
>> If Shoghi Effendi would have
>> wanted to appoint someone 100 years old he could have, it would be
>> seen as a safety measure, incase something tragic (such as a flu
>> epedemic) happened, you make a big thing of age, when there is no
>> reason to. Shoghi Effendi never pretended to know when he was going
>> to die. King Hussein of Jordan hid his real successor until a short
>> time before he died, Shoghi Effendi would be seen as doing the same.
>>
>> Shoghi Effendi would have convened the 9 Hands to decide on his
>> choice. It would have been so simple. He would not have left the
>> loose end of approval, what if the 9 hands rejected his choice after
>> he was dead, he would not have taken the chance.
>>
>> Shoghi Effendi was waiting for one of the Aghsan to return to the
>> Faith. If he had lived now or had Viagra been invented 60 years
>> earlier maybe there wouldn't have been a problem with succession.
>>
>> This whole argument is stupid, you want us to believe that Shoghi
>> Effendi would have essentially destroyed the Faith because he didn't
>> want Ruhhiyah Khanum to know he was going to die soon? Does this
>> sound like the Shoghi Effendi we know? Does this sound like the
>> Ruhiyyah Khanum we got to know after his death? Nothing in your
>> argument passes the common sense meter.
>
>
> You may choose to give consideration to the following:
>
> 1. On the bottom of page 239 of "God Passes By" the term "Aghsán" clearly
> means (His sons) for, Shoghi Effendi has specifically identified the Aghsán
> only as Baháąuąlláhąs sons and not a term designating His other male
> relatives.
>
> *************** *************** *************** ***************
> Quoted from the Third Guardian's document entitled:
> Inexcusable Multiple Failures by the Hands
>
> http://Bahai-Guardian.com/failures.html
> *************** *************** *************** ***************
> "Failure to discover the unexpected, indirect, yet clear manner, in which
> Shoghi Effendi had faithfully appointed his successor "in his own life-time"
> as required under the terms of ŚAbduąl-Baháąs Will and Testament. They may
> have discovered this, had they taken the time to carefully review Shoghi
> Effendiąs pertinent acts, decisions, and messages, particularly during the
> last seven years of his ministry, and, in doing so, had not been blinded by
> their erroneous interpretation of the terms of the Will and Testament of
> ŚAbduąl-Bahá which resulted in their holding the fallacious belief that
> these terms restricted the Guardianąs choice of a successor to male
> relatives of the blood line of Baháąuąlláh, whom they had further
> incorrectly defined as Aghsán, a term which Shoghi Effendi had stated
> applied only to the "sons" of Baháąuąlláh who, as contemporaries of
> ŚAbduąl-Bahá, would have long since died prior to the passing of Shoghi
> Effendi and therefore obviously would never have been available for
> consideration, much less appointment, as his successor. "
>
> ***************
> end quote
> ***************
>
> You would also be aware that Mason Remey was appointed by Shoghi Effendi to
> be the President and thus the head of the International Baha'i Council which
> Shoghi Effendi called into being in his laudatory Proclamation of 9 January,
> 1951 ( the only time Shoghi Effendi utilised the word "Proclaim" to open any
> of his messages in cablegram form to the Baha'i World ) and which I would
> urge you to read. It can be found at:
>
> http://Bahai-Guardian.com/Proc9.Jan.html
>
>
> Your reference to the convening of the [elected nine] Hands (which body had
> never been brought into existence during the ministry of Shoghi Effendi )
> which you state should have given their assent to the choice of the
> Guardian's successor, is not applicable. Even if that body had been brought
> into existence, a "will" is not the manner to which the Successor/Guardian
> is to be named as he must be appointed in the incumbent Guardian's lifetime.
> The following quote from "Baha'i News", dated February, 1955 will affirm
> this. http://www.rt66.com/~obfusa/newspage/288-55.htm
>
> ****************
> Statement of Shoghi Effendi
> in Baha'i News
> ****************
>
> "The statement in the Will of 'Abdu'l-Bahá does not imply that the Hands of
> the Cause of God have been given the authority to overrule the Guardian.
> 'Abdu'l-Bahá could not have provided for a conflict of authority in the
> Faith. This is obvious, in view of His own words, which you will find on
> page 13 (p. 11 of 1944 U.S. edition) of the Will and Testament of
> 'Abdu'l-Bahá. "The mighty stronghold shall remain impregnable and safe
> through obedience to him who is the guardian of the Cause of God. It is
> incumbent upon...the Hands of the Cause of God to show their obedience,
> submissiveness and subordination unto the guardian of the Cause of God, to
> turn unto him and be lowly before him. He that opposeth him hath opposed the
> True One,"
> *************
> end quote
>
> *************
>
> It would also be important to review and consider one of the most
> significant statements which was made by Shoghi Effendi with regard to his
> descendants and found in the Pilgrim Notes of Gayle Woolsen:
>
> ******************
> Quote
> ******************
> "One of the Persian pilgrims present at Haifa when I was, told me that one
> of the Persian men in their group had asked the Guardian about his
> descendants, about a son, and the Guardian answered,
>
> "EVERYTHING THAT IS WRITTEN IN THE WILL AND TESTAMENT WILL BE FULFILLED. THE
> BAHA'IS MUST NOT BE ANXIOUS ABOUT THIS."
>
> (Extracted from Haifa Notes of Gayle Woolson, Feb.16-25, 1956)
> http://www.bahai-guardian.com/intro.html
>
>
>
> ********************** ********************** **********************
> Extract from the "Unaswered Letters to Rúhíyyih Khánum"
> written by Joel Bray Marangella, Third Guardian of
> the Bahá'í Faith
> http://www.bahai-guardian.com/third.html
> ********************** ********************** **********************
>
> "Certainly you [Rúhíyyih Khánum] and those who follow you must ask
> themselves why Shoghi Effendi would have given such definite assurances
> concerning the continuity of the Guardianship if, in fact, there was no one
> destined to succeed him. You would be the last one to accuse him of
> deceiving the Baháąís or giving them false assurances. He could make the
> statement he did to this pilgrim for the very reason that I have attempted
> to point out in my previous two letters to you and that is that he had, in
> fact, already provided for his successor in appointing him the Head or
> President-to-be of the active Universal House of Justice, then only in its
> inactive embryonic state of development prior to becoming the International
> Baháąí Court, whose Head or Chief Judge could be none other than the
> Guardian of the Faith according to the sacred provisions of the Will and
> Testament of the Master.
> **********************
> End quote
> **********************
>
>
>
> ********************** **********************
> Quotation from the
> document entitled:
> "Inexcusable Multiple Failures of the Hands"
> ********************** **********************
>
> During the last seven years of his thirty-six year ministry that had
> commenced in 1921 with the Ascension of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, Shoghi Effendi decided
> that the situation at the World Center of the Faith had become favorable and
> the development of the Faith had reached the stage where he could "at long
> last" erect the International Institutions of the Faith, taking into
> consideration the significant factor, among others, of "the present
> adequate maturity of nine vigoorously functioning national administrative
> institutions throughout the Bahá'í World." The first "embryonic
> International Institution" that he brought into existence was the Universal
> House of Justice, which he established by appointment in January 1951 and
> titled in this initial embryonic stage, the International Bahá'í Council. He
> appointed Mason Remey, an American Bahá'í, the President of this Council, a
> believer whose services to the Faith following his acceptance of the Faith
> as a young man at the turn of the Century remained unparalleled, having
> included his world-wide teaching efforts in many countries on behalf of the
> Faith, his authourship of several of the earliest books written on the Faith
> and his notable architectural achievements for the Faith, as the architect
> of three Bahá'í Temples already constructed, and two yet to be built (
> chosen architect by 'Abdu'l-Bahá for the one to be built on Mount Carmel and
> chosen by Shoghi Effendi for the one to be built in Tihran ) and the
> magnificent International Achives Building built on Mount Carmel. He had
> been repeatedly eulogized by 'Abdu'l-Bahá in His Tablets ( appearing in
> publication of the Star of the West) for the purity of his motives and
> exemplary fidelity to the Covenant of Bahá'u'lláh, and had been uniquely
> promised by Him in one of His Tablets that "Ere long thy Lord shall make
> thee a sign of guidance among mankind."
> http://Bahai-Guardian.com/eulogy.html
> ********************** **********************
> end Quotation from the
> document entitled:
> "Inexcusable Multiple Failures of the Hands"
> ********************** **********************
>
>
> I would suggest that you take the time to review the documents listed above
> in order to better understand the position of those Bahá'ís who follow and
> give support to the present designate/Guardian and perceive that,
> Guardians, then, as well as now, and into the future, will always appoint
> "in his [their] own lifetime" in clear and unambiguous language as was done,
> in the case of Shoghi Effendi, when he named Mason Remey to be the
> President and designated successor and "sacred head" of the UHJ, the
> embryonic form being the International Bahá'í Council. Thus, it was to be no
> one other than Mason Remey. It was not until November of 1957, at the
> moment of Shoghi Effendi's passing (caused by coronary thrombosis brought on
> by a severe case of Asiatic influenza) that Mason assumed the mantle of
> Guardian. You would find it most interesting, I can asssure you, to read his
> Proclamation: http://Bahai-Guardian.com/Mason.proc.html
>
> Those Bahá'ís who have understood this, now aspire and agree with the many
> statements of facts and many shared beliefs expressed in documents
> entreaties, appeals, and apologia, which have been written by Mason Remey's
> duly-appointed successor and the present and Third Guardian of the Bahá'í
> Faith and have continuously -- this, now for the past 40 years -- championed
> the continuity of the Guardianship and those sacred and immutable provisions
> of the Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Bahá which underpin the entire fabric
> of the World Order of Bahá'u'lláh, representing as it does the very
> foundation upon which the continuity of the Faith must needs continue to
> evolve and progress.
>
> WEB:
>
> http://Bahai-Guardian.com
>
>
>
>
>
in article 20020819150009...@mb-cd.aol.com, Robin Peters at
snoop...@aol.comspamness wrote on 19/8/02 7:00 pm:
>> Written on behalf of a man with deep, deep, deep issues. Shoghi spent his
--
To get random signatures put text files into a folder called łRandom
george.fleming2
in article 20020819150400...@mb-cd.aol.com, Robin Peters at
snoop...@aol.comspamness wrote on 19/8/02 7:04 pm:
--
george.fleming2
in article 20020819150009...@mb-cd.aol.com, Robin Peters at
snoop...@aol.comspamness wrote on 19/8/02 7:00 pm:
--
george.fleming2
in article 20020819150400...@mb-cd.aol.com, Robin Peters at
snoop...@aol.comspamness wrote on 19/8/02 7:04 pm:
--
george.fleming2
in article e37a2ae4.0208...@posting.google.com, Milissa at
mili...@yahoo.com wrote on 19/8/02 7:08 pm:
> Hi George--
--
george.fleming2
in article 20020819155947...@mb-cd.aol.com, Robin Peters at
snoop...@aol.comspamness wrote on 19/8/02 7:59 pm:
--
To get random signatures put text files into a folder called łRandom
george.fleming2
in article newscache$jnd31h$ztt1$1...@elise.onthenet.com.au, Freethought110 at
Freetho...@bohemian.org wrote on 19/8/02 1:18 pm:
> Written on behalf of a man with deep, deep, deep issues. Shoghi spent his
--
Susan Maneck
I must confess I may be responsible for George's presence here. You see he is
really mad at me because I told him he had to stop attacking Karen on my list
and because I sometimes post here. When he threatened to tell the NSA, I
showed him letters from the House of Justice leaving the decision to
participate here up to the individual. So I guess he decided to participate
himself by competing with Freddie for the spammer award.
Susan Maneck
Associate Professor of History
Jackson State University
"And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time
left to start again . . "
Don McLean's American Pie
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Freethought110
Let us be compassionate to those who either fail to take their medication or
their medication has simply failed them. Darn mental health industry.
Instead of helping people, they make them worse with their trigger happiness
in giving out prescriptions on a whim:) May I suggest that in George's case
a change in weather with abundant sunshine, beaches, a few blonde bombshells
here and there and a few delicious margarittas might well do the trick.
--
Freethought110
"Robin Peters" <snoop...@aol.comspamness> wrote in message
news:20020819155947...@mb-cd.aol.com...
Susan Maneck
>merely wanting to be able to still visit Mom.
Dear Milissa,
Who was declared CB for visiting their mother?
>For example, the Archives building at the World
>Centre sits on land that Shoghi Effendi got the Israeli government to
>seize from his aunt and she was never paid!
Are you sure it belonged to her? How did she get it? And if so, why did the
Israelis give it to him?
>
>Except for the group falsely accused!
George seems unaware of the fact that only the Universal House of Justice has
the right to declare anyone a Covenant breaker.
> If
>> you put a leper in a room with healthy people, he cannot catch their
>health:
>> on the contrary they are very likely to catch his horrible ailment.
Is that what you are here for George?
Freethought110
"Susan Maneck " <sma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020819201828...@mb-cu.aol.com...
> >I mean, some of his family were declared CBs for
> >merely wanting to be able to still visit Mom.
> Dear Milissa,
>
> Who was declared CB for visiting their mother?
Actually she's got it backwards, IIRC. Riaz Rabbani was declared CB, for
Beelzebub knows what REAL reason - Shoghi must've been having a bad hair
day - and the fact that he and his other siblings were visiting their
parents pushed Shoghi short of declaring his own parents one as well. But he
never did that - formally. Yet others were so declared for even more measely
reasons, such as failing to relocate their lives and livelihoods from
Palestine promptly and faster than the sound of Shoghi's cracking whip.
> >For example, the Archives building at the World
> >Centre sits on land that Shoghi Effendi got the Israeli government to
> >seize from his aunt and she was never paid!
>
> Are you sure it belonged to her? How did she get it? And if so, why did
the
> Israelis give it to him?
That's a new one and interesting anecdote. Milissa, please elaborate.
> >Except for the group falsely accused!
>
> George seems unaware of the fact that only the Universal House of Justice
has
> the right to declare anyone a Covenant breaker.
Please cite the specific and unequivocal mandate which grants the uhj such
prerogative. And I don't mean scriptural vagaries.
Btw, are you still convinced that American courts do not impliment Common
Law? It would be news to all of the 50 states Bar Associations that they
don't.
--
Freethought110
Matt Menge
> Shoghi spent his
> whole life demonizing his own as well as others to the point that when he
> died, he had only one loved one at his side (and even that is questionable).
I disagree on several points. Shoghi Effendi did very little
demonizing. In fact he only seems to discuss the Covenant-breakers
during the point time they were expelled, giving the reason for their
expulsion.
I actually feel sorry for Baha'u'llah's family. They spent decades
suffering because of Baha'u'llah and deserved more. But the fact is
that they wanted control of the Faith (presumably as a reward for this
suffering), and Shoghi Effendi had every reason to deprive them of it.
Finally, Shoghi Effendi had a great number of loved ones at his side.
From what I have read most, if not all, the Hands of the Cause felt a
very deep love for the man. His love was the Baha'i Faith, and his
family was the Baha'is.
Best Regards,
Matt
Matt Menge
start out with. You seem to be leaving a lot of people wondering.
Best Regards,
Matt
Susan Maneck
>Please cite the specific and unequivocal mandate which grants the uhj such
>prerogative.
It is the House of Justice which has said this, and it is in their rights just
as it was the right of Shoghi Effendi to relegate to himself the right to
declare people Covenant breakers even though the Will and Testament gave the
Hands this job.
>
>Btw, are you still convinced that American courts do not impliment Common
>Law?
Do you want to talk about real issues, Nima, or just silliness?
Dermod Ryder
> I must confess I may be responsible for George's presence here.
There is no "may" about it. You fucked his mind up good and proper!
>You see he is
> really mad at me because I told him he had to stop attacking Karen
on my list
> and because I sometimes post here.
Is it not that you are a two faced hypocritical DST who patronised him
by telling him NOT to go to TRB lest he be injured, that you didn't go
there but then had to, once the beans were spilled about the NSA
banning "consultation"? George was most annoyed you were discussing
this "internal" matter where the "enemies" were.
>When he threatened to tell the NSA, I
> showed him letters from the House of Justice leaving the decision to
> participate here up to the individual. So I guess he decided to
participate
> himself by competing with Freddie for the spammer award.
Don't pinch my ideas! Try to be original ... for once!
Maybe you wound him up so much about TRB that he decided to take
direct action. Unfortunately it has backfired badly and you really
have shown your true colours by now disowning him, endeavouring to
cast him off onto us (having first told him not to come to TRB as you
didn't, then disegarding your own advice and glibly quoting what you
but he didn't know about whose decision it was).
You try to warp every mind you come into contact with to serve an AO
that will spit on and discard you, the way you have just discarded
George, when you are no longer useful to it. You're a pathetic human
being! Maybe I should kill-file you and place you along with the only
other scum in my kill-file - Dreadful Evensong!
Dermod Ryder
> >
> >Please cite the specific and unequivocal mandate which grants the
uhj such
> >prerogative.
>
> It is the House of Justice which has said this, and it is in their
rights just
> as it was the right of Shoghi Effendi to relegate to himself the
right to
> declare people Covenant breakers even though the Will and Testament
gave the
> Hands this job.
The so-called House of Justice is improperly constituted and has
therefore no right to assume the powers, privileges and
responsibilities of the Guardian (Office now vacant) and the UHJ
(incapable of being properly constituted).
Anything the House says in support of its claims to exercise authority
are to be taken cum grano salis.
> >
> >Btw, are you still convinced that American courts do not impliment
Common
> >Law?
>
> Do you want to talk about real issues, Nima, or just silliness?
Yeah! Don't piss her off, Nima and exhibit her ignorance to the
world!
Dermod Ryder
> >
> >Please cite the specific and unequivocal mandate which grants the
uhj such
> >prerogative.
>
> It is the House of Justice which has said this, and it is in their
rights just
> as it was the right of Shoghi Effendi to relegate to himself the
right to
> declare people Covenant breakers even though the Will and Testament
gave the
> Hands this job.
BTW has the House granted any specific authority for you, your clones
and pupils to spy on private lists yet?
One of your pupils "Meadow Muffin Man" has been active in recent days!
like all brave Bahais he hides behind an alias!
Courage ain't one of your attributes anyway!
Sekhmet
telling the truth.
--Sekhmet
Karen Bacquet
--
"The essence of all that We have revealed for thee is Justice . . ." --
Baha'u'llah
Sekhmet <sekhm...@aol.com.nz> wrote in message
news:20020820002911...@mb-mi.aol.com...
> Nice try, Dermod, but I was there (as was Karen), and can attest that
Susan is
> telling the truth.
I honestly have no idea what sent George round the bend like that. It must
have been some time coming I think. Because, really, all I did was talk
about the consultation issue and use the pronoun "we" when referring to
Baha'is -- and he's off ranting about enemies, my article, and Susan's
participation on trb. It wasn't like I was fighting with him or anything;
he was the aggressor, and everybody knew it. But, who knows what other
pressures are going on in his life that might have led up to this? Just
because someone flips out on the Internet doesn't mean that it was entirely
caused by Internet events. I once ragged on somebody because I'd taken too
much antihistimine for my allergies, and it left me jumpy and irritable, so
I over-reacted.
Love, Karen
http://www.bacquet.tk
george.fleming2
in article newscache$9ez31h$hnu1$1...@elise.onthenet.com.au, Freethought110 at
Freetho...@bohemian.org wrote on 19/8/02 9:08 pm:
> Lovely quote by Shoghidelic, George. Do keep them coming :)
>
> --
> Freethought110
>
> "george.fleming2" <george....@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:B986B396.6DC5%george....@btinternet.com...
>>
>> " It is possible that some of the western friends, with remarkable
> naivete,
>> do not grasp the fact that there is absolutely nothing keeping those have
>> broken the Covenant, whether Baha'u'llah's or the master's, out of the
> Cause
>> of God except their own inner spirtually sick condition. If they were
> sound,
>> instead of diseased, and wanted to enter the service of our Faith , they
>> would apply directly to the Guardian (or today the Universal House) and he
>> would be able to adjudge of their sincerity and , if sincere would welcome
>> them into the ranks of the faithful as he didwith Sydney Sprague.
>> Unfortunately a man who is ill is not made well just by asserting there is
>> nothing wrong with him! Facts actual states, are what count. probably no
>> group of people in the world have softer tounges, or proclaim more loudly
>> their innocence, than those who in their heart of hearts, and by their
> very
>> act, are enemies of the Center of the Covenant. The master well knew this,
>> and that is why He said we must shun their company, but pray for them. If
>> you put a leper in a room with healthy people, he cannot catch their
> health:
>> on the contrary they are very likely to catch his horrible ailment.
>>
>> (from a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to the national Spirtual
>> Assembly of the United States, April 11, 1949)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
in article B978C824.12C6B%jm...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au, Joel J. Marangella at
jm...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au wrote on 8/8/02 5:15 pm:
>
> TO: THOSE DIRECTING AFFAIRS AT THE BAHÁ'Í WORLD CENTER
>
>
> WHAT POSSIBLE ANSWER CAN YOU GIVE
>
> TO FUTURE BAHÁ'Í GENERATIONS?
>
>
>
> How can any faithful and devoted believer professing fidelity to the mighty,
> indestructible and resistless Covenant of Baháąuąlláh maintain the belief
> that the most important provisions of the Will and Testament of ŚAbduąl-Bahá
> have now become null and void? For has not Shoghi Effendi equated this
> Document in its sacredness withBaháąuąlláhąs Most Holy Book the
> Kitáb-i-Aqdas in stating that these two Documents "are inseparable parts
> of one complete unit" the Explicit Holy Text whose laws and provisions
> have been promised to endure and remain inviolate for no less than a full
> thousand years? Does not such a belief, therefore, constitute a flagrant
> repudiation, in effect, of ŚAbduąl-Baháąs divinely-conceived Testament which
> has been extolled by Shoghi Effendi as the very "Child of the Covenant the
> Heir of both the Originator and the Interpreter of the Law of God" and thus,
> "TheirWill"and, moreover the " Charter of the New World Order which is at
> once the glory and promise of this most great Dispensation" ?
>
>
> How then can any faithful believer continue to hold the untenable,
> incredulous, and fallacious belief that Shoghi Effendi would have permitted
> this divinely conceived and glorious "new born child" so glowingly eulogized
> by him to die, as it were, prematurely in its infancy and the God-given
> "Charter of the New World Order" to become a dead letter?
>
>
> Moreover, how can any faithful believer shamelessly ignore and discount all
> that flowed from the matchless pen of Shoghi Effendi in such monumental
> works as "The Dispensation of Baháąuąlláh" in which he has repeatedly
> stressed the continuing essentiality of the Guardianship to the World Order
> of Bahá'uąlláh and the indispensable and irreplaceable role of the "Guardian
> of the Administrative Order" in an " Order which the master-hand of its
> perfect Architect has fashioned" ?
>
>
> How can you be convinced that future Baháąi generations will accept your
> deluded belief that a man-made, corrupted and imperfect, sans-Guardian
> organization erected by you as a disfigured substitute for the
> divinely-conceived Order bequeathed to us by ŚAbduąl-Bahá is able to replace
> an Order alluded to by Baháąuąlláh as "this unique, this wondrous System
> the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed" and an Order that he
> stated has been founded on the bedrock of " Godąs immutable Purpose for
> mankind in this day" ?
>
>
>
>
>
> Joel Bray Marangella
> Third Guardian of the Bahá'í Faith
> http://Bahai-Guardian.com
>
>
>
george.fleming2
george.fleming2
george.fleming2
Freethought110
"Karen Bacquet" <karenb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:um3obsi...@corp.supernews.com...
> I honestly have no idea what sent George round the bend like that.
Low serotonin levels flowing inside the grey matter :-)
--
Freethought110
Freethought110
"Matt Menge" <mspm...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:dc19cfc5.02081...@posting.google.com...
> "Freethought110" <Freetho...@bohemian.org> wrote in message
news:<newscache$jnd31h$ztt1$1...@elise.onthenet.com.au>...
> Finally, Shoghi Effendi had a great number of loved ones at his side.
These weren't loved ones. They were the royal jesters and sycophants around
Shoghi's court. Loved ones are your family and when he bit the bullet, he
had a family of just one. Tells you a lot about a person.
--
Freethought110
Freethought110
"Susan Maneck " <sma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020819212102...@mb-cu.aol.com...
> It is the House of Justice which has said this, and it is in their rights
just
> as it was the right of Shoghi Effendi to relegate to himself the right to
> declare people Covenant breakers even though the Will and Testament gave
the
> Hands this job.
In other words, they have illegitimately delegated such authority to
themselves without any constitutional mandate to do so. Elsewhere this would
be called a power grab and a coup d'etat, hence making the uhj a junta.
> >
> >Btw, are you still convinced that American courts do not impliment Common
> >Law?
>
> Do you want to talk about real issues, Nima, or just silliness?
Hey, you're the one who said it! That statement of yours back in
February/March is the richest and greatest single blooper in the entire
history of TRB thus far. And, sister, I ain't never gonna let you forget
that one ;-P
--
Freethought110
george.fleming2
Literature Written by Enemies of the Faith.
"In reply to your letter of September 20, 1975 the Universal House of Justice instructs us to say that tyhe friends should be advised to ignore these books and any similar ones which might be written by enemies of the Faith. There shoul certainly be no attempt made to destroy or remove books from libraries. On the other hand there is no need at all for the friends to aquire them and, indeed, the best plan is to ignore them. (referring to books by hermann Zimmer and William Millar.
(letter from the Universal House to the US NSA of Panama, October 2,1975)
WARNING TO ALL BAHA'I IN GOOD STANDING WHO ENTER NEWSGROUPS (TALK/ALT RELIGION BAHAI) THESE THREE 21 CENTURY PAPERS AND WEBSITE ADDRESSES (BELOW) BY DISSIDENT EX BAHA'IS, JUAN COLE, KAREN BACQUET, AND FRED GLAYSHER, WILL ONLY DESTROY YOUR LOVE FOR BAHA'U'LLAH AND THE TRUE TEACHINGS OF THE BAHA'I FAITH).
THE ONLY INTENTION OF THESE THREE AUTHORS IS TO TEMPT BAHA'IS TO LEAVE THE FAITH AS THEY DID.
Professor Juan R. I. Cole, University of Michigan,
"Fundamentalism in the Contemporary U.S. Baha'i Community,"
Religious Studies Review, Vol. 43, no. 3 (March, 2002):195-217:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/2002/fundbhfn.htm
See also Karen Bacquet, "Enemies Within: Conflict and Control
in the Baha'i Community," American Family Foundation,
Cultic Studies Journal, 2001:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/bigquestions/enemies.html
--
Frederick Glaysher
The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/
in article um3obsi...@corp.supernews.com, Karen Bacquet at karenb...@hotmail.com wrote on 20/8/02 6:30 am:
To get random signatures put text files into a folder called ³Random Signatures² into your Preferences folder.
paul saunders-priem
>
>
>
> "Matt Menge" <mspm...@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:dc19cfc5.02081...@posting.google.com...
> > "Freethought110" <Freetho...@bohemian.org> wrote in message
> news:<newscache$jnd31h$ztt1$1...@elise.onthenet.com.au>...
>
> > Finally, Shoghi Effendi had a great number of loved ones at his side.
>
> These weren't loved ones. They were the royal jesters and sycophants
around
> Shoghi's court. Loved ones are your family and when he bit the bullet, he
> had a family of just one.
Shoghi Effendi has a spiritual family , of nearly 6 million , the best sort
.
> Tells you a lot about a person.
When 6 million Bahai's accept and love Shoghi Effendi it does :-)
Just out of interest over 98% of folk who call themselves " Bahai " are
members of the Bahai Faith :
"At least 98% of the adherents of the Babi & Baha'i faiths belong to the
same church/denomination/religious body, the Baha'i World Faith (or simply
"Baha'i Faith") with headquarters in Haifa, Israel."
(http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html#Baha'I)
Tangible evidence of the support and love of Shoghi Effendi :-)
Tangible evidence that you are wrong :-)
As Shoghi Effendi said :
"Facts , actual states are what counts " (Shoghi Effendi )
Step away from your fantasies my friend and start looking at the reality of
the Bahai Faith :-)
Warmest regards,
Paul Saunders Priem
www.bahai.org
Dermod Ryder
> Nice try, Dermod, but I was there (as was Karen), and can attest
that Susan is
> telling the truth.
I didn't say she wasn't but she is being very careful in her
presentation of it so as to herself emerge in the best possible light.
At one time George was extremely curious about Bahai Cyberspace and I
advised him to go to Talisman. I also told him about TRB/ARB and that
it was a rough house where he'd have to be prepared to hold his own
end up. Whether he looked or not I don't know. When he was spotted
on BS conversing with the DST, I admit to being surprised but George
is free to do what he wants.
But I am aware that over a period of time somebody started to play
with his mind - the man who was curious started to become very
imitative of the "TRB is a spiritually diseased hole" opinion, which
doctrine is actively purveyed by the DST herself.
Let's put it like this - he certainly wasn't trained for this kind of
fanaticism on liberal lists; he's not generally accounted among the
usual liberal suspects. His chief abode to date has been BS - the DST
is among his known associates. She was most anxious last evening to
dispose of him after this behaviour started.
I leave the jury to draw the apropriate conclusions - leaving aside,
of course, all precepts of common law.
Dermod.
Freethought110
through him/her without doing anything yourself, sitting back while flames
fly, then publically disassociating yourself from said protege and thus
hanging them out to dry. This is a common Machiavellian ruse in politics,
but only one the most gullible ever fall for. Note Bush and Cheney are
currently doing it with Enron and Worldcom CEOs. Of course Baha'i loyalists
and their assorted fada'iyyin think they're really smart by engaging in such
sleaze level tactics, but anyone with enough experience of their ways and
manners can see right throught it. Poor George!
--
Freethought110
"Dermod Ryder" <Grim_Re...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:ajt2fr$1e1k0u$2...@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de...
Freethought110
pretty sad person said:
> Hello My friend.
I ain't your friend, pilgrim.
> > These weren't loved ones. They were the royal jesters and sycophants
> around
> > Shoghi's court. Loved ones are your family and when he bit the bullet,
he
> > had a family of just one.
>
> Shoghi Effendi has a spiritual family , of nearly 6 million , the best
sort
F'r shoor! LOL :))
>
> > Tells you a lot about a person.
>
> When 6 million Bahai's accept and love Shoghi Effendi it does :-)
Jesus loves you, too ;-P
> Just out of interest over 98% of folk who call themselves " Bahai " are
> members of the Bahai Faith :
>
> "At least 98% of the adherents of the Babi & Baha'i faiths belong to the
> same church/denomination/religious body, the Baha'i World Faith (or simply
> "Baha'i Faith") with headquarters in Haifa, Israel."
> (http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html#Baha'I)
Since when have the Bayanis (i.e. what you call Babis) been members of your
creed? The Bayanis whom I know do not even recognise your prophet as Him
Whom God shall manifest let alone belong to your church. You have lost the
argument there BIG TIME ;-P
> Tangible evidence of the support and love of Shoghi Effendi :-)
> Tangible evidence that you are wrong :-)
Tangible evidence that the deluded will love and believe in anything and
everything, just as over 100 million Soviet citizens once believed the light
shone out of Comrade Joseph Stalin's behind.
> Step away from your fantasies my friend and start looking at the reality
of
> the Bahai Faith :-)
I have, that's why I stepped away ;-P
--
Freethought110
Susan Maneck
>It's called leading a protege down a garden path,
George, my protege? Oh, that's funny! Speaking of medications, have you taken
any for your paranoia lately?
Robin Peters
>creed? The Bayanis whom I know do not even recognise your prophet as Him
>Whom God shall manifest let alone belong to your church.
Hmmm - where are there Bayanis? Thought this group went out when Baha'u'llah
declared. Or have I been deceived by TPTB in Haifa again?
Robin Peters
>the right to declare anyone a Covenant breaker.
There I'll agree - I've hear rumors to the effect that he has unilaterally
declared both TRB and ARB to be CB groups and is advising people to shun those
of us who post here.
Wonder where he gets *his* authority to make such statements, given that the
UHJ is the one with the authority here.
Robin Peters
Now, THAT sounds good - make mine a strawberri Daiquiri.
Dermod Ryder
> >
> >It's called leading a protege down a garden path,
>
> George, my protege? Oh, that's funny! Speaking of medications, have
you taken
> any for your paranoia lately?
Can't get any of the stuff any more - apparently the BIGS have
cornered the market.
Robin Peters
>any for your paranoia lately?
Can't speak for the rest of the list, but I have.
Robin Peters
>with his mind - the man who was curious started to become very
>imitative of the "TRB is a spiritually diseased hole" opinion, which
>doctrine is actively purveyed by the DST herself.
I don't know - the way he's playing with the lists, I think it goes beyond
someone "playing with his mind," Dermod. When someone starts taking it upon
him- or herself to act unilaterally and declare all and sundry CBers - as he
has done implicitly by calling ARB and TRB CB groups - I wonder if someone in
the AO has been playing with his mind or something.
Robin Peters
Gee, Nima, I know a great psychiatrist to send George to in order to be
medicated for this problem.
Susan Maneck
>declared.
No, and "Haifa" never indicated they had. There are a few Azalis and even some
other Babis around. Even Nima here tried it for awhile.
Milissa
> > >For example, the Archives building at the World
> > >Centre sits on land that Shoghi Effendi got the Israeli government to
> > >seize from his aunt and she was never paid!
> >
> > Are you sure it belonged to her? How did she get it? And if so, why did
> the
> > Israelis give it to him?
>
> That's a new one and interesting anecdote. Milissa, please elaborate.
I can tell you about two instances where Shoghi Effendi got the
Israeli government to basically steal land for the World Centre. ONe
concerned a home near the Shrine of the Bab (don't know who owned it)
and the other concerns the sister of Fareed (guess she didn't have her
own name) whose land the Archive sits on now. Please see the two
cablegrams attached for details. What bothers me is that, well, the
land was stolen. Also, note that Shoghi Effendi uses the fact that
the CBs were going to court to protect themselves and their legal
rights as evidence of their *spiritual* corruption. Phooey. MOst
people don't like having their land stolen. Also, notice all the
powerful political friends Shoghi Effendi apparently had. To the CBs,
it appeared that Shoghi Effendi could do *anything* he wanted to them
and the government would abet him. Shoghi Effendi could vilify them to
the Baha'i world where they couldn't defend themselves and could steal
their land and on top of that thought he had a right to tell them whom
to marry. I honestly can see what they didn't like him.
Peace,
Milissa
***************************
"Old Covenant-breakers, untaught by the lessons of the past sixty
years, the reverses suffered in connection with the restitution of
keys to the Shrine, the evacuation and restoration of the Mansion, the
devastating loss in rapid succession of outstanding leaders and
spokesmen, backed by the support of the perfidious Sohrab, engaging
the services of a clever, hostile lawyer, unitedly challenged the
authority conferred by `Abdu'l-Bahá's Testament, and instituted legal
proceedings against the Guardian of the Faith, questioned his right to
demolish dilapidated house situated within the precincts and
constituting an affront to the Most Holy Shrine of the Bahá'í World,
were rebuffed through the intervention of the Israel government
denying the competence of the civil court to adjudicate the matter,
subsequently threatened to appeal the government decision to the
Supreme Court, provoked the authorities who, in consequence of my
representations to both the Prime Minister and the Minister of Foreign
Affairs, issued authorization to demolish the ruins.
Cablegram, June 11, 1952]
****************************
I hail, with feelings of thankfulness and relief, the signature, on
the eve of `Abdu'l-Bahá's ascension, of a contract for the immediate
expropriation, by the Israeli Finance Minister, on the recommendation
of the Mayor of the City of Haifa, of a thirteen-hundred meter plot,
owned by the sister of Fareed, notorious enemy of the Center of
Bahá'u'lláh's Covenant. This historic act paves the way for the early
transfer of the title deed of this plot by the State of Israel to the
Bahá'í Community, now engaged in establishing and consolidating its
World Administrative Center in the Holy Land.
The truculence, greed and obstinacy, of this breaker of the Covenant
of Bahá'u'lláh, demonstrated by her persistent refusal to sell and by
the exorbitant price subsequently demanded, raised, during more than
thirty years, an almost insurmountable obstacle to the acquisition of
an area which, however circumscribed, occupies a central position
amidst the extensive Bahá'í domains in the heart of God's Holy
Mountain, is situated in the vicinity of the Báb's Sepulcher,
overlooks the Tomb of the Greatest Holy Leaf, and adjoins the
resting-places of the Brother and the Mother of `Abdu'l-Bahá, and
which, through deliberate neglect, has been allowed to become an
eyesore to all those who throng the embellished precincts of a
Mausoleum rightly regarded as the second holiest Shrine in the Bahá'í
world.
The ownership of this plot will now enable us to locate the site,
excavate the foundations, and erect the structure, of the
International Bahá'í Archives, designed by the Hand of the Cause,
Mason Remey, President of the International Bahá'í Council, which will
serve as the permanent and befitting repository for the priceless and
numerous relics associated with the Twin Founders of the Faith, with
the Perfect Exemplar of its teachings and with its heroes, saints and
martyrs, and the building of which constitutes one of the foremost
objectives of the Ten-Year Plan.
The raising of this Edifice will in turn herald the construction, in
the course of successive epochs of the Formative Age of the Faith, of
several other structures, which will serve as the administrative seats
of such divinely appointed institutions as the Guardianship, the Hands
of the Cause, and the Universal House of Justice. These Edifices will,
in the shape of a far-flung arc, and following a harmonizing style of
architecture, surround the resting-places of the Greatest Holy Leaf,
ranking as foremost among the members of her sex in the Bahá'í
Dispensation, of her Brother, offered up as a ransom by Bahá'u'lláh
for the quickening of the world and its unification, and of their
Mother, proclaimed by Him to be His chosen "consort in all the worlds
of God." The ultimate completion of this stupendous undertaking will
mark the culmination of the development of a world-wide
divinely-appointed Administrative Order whose beginnings may be traced
as far back as the concluding years of the Heroic Age of the Faith.
This vast and irresistible process, unexampled in the spiritual
history of mankind, and which will synchronize with two no less
significant developments--the establishment of the Lesser Peace and
the evolution of Bahá'í national and local institutions--the one
outside and the other within the Bahá'í world--will attain its final
consummation, in the Golden Age of the Faith, through the raising of
the standard of the Most Great Peace, and the emergence, in the
plenitude of its power and glory, of the focal Center of the agencies
constituting the World Order of Bahá'u'lláh. The final establishment
of this seat of the future Bahá'í World Commonwealth will signalize at
once the proclamation of the sovereignty of the Founder of our Faith
and the advent of the Kingdom of the Father repeatedly lauded and
promised by Jesus Christ.
This World Order will, in turn, in the course of successive
Dispensations of the Bahá'í Cycle, yield its fairest fruit through the
birth and flowering of a civilization, divinely inspired, unique in
its features, world-embracing in its scope, and fundamentally
spiritual in its character--a civilization destined as it unfolds to
derive its initial impulse from the spirit animating the very
institutions which, in their embryonic state, are now stirring in the
womb of the present Formative Age of the Faith.
Advise share this message with the Hands of the Cause and the members
of the National Spiritual Assemblies throughout the Bahá'í world.
--Shoghi
[November 27, 1954]
paul saunders-priem
> pretty sad person said:
> > Shoghi Effendi has a spiritual family , of nearly 6 million , the best
> sort
>
> F'r shoor! LOL :))
Glad you agree :-)
> >
> > > Tells you a lot about a person.
> >
> > When 6 million Bahai's accept and love Shoghi Effendi it does :-)
>
> Jesus loves you, too ;-P
A Baha'i can safely say that Muhammad, Buddha and Jesus does indeed love
them because Baha'u'llah is the fulfilment of all of the Prophets of God.
For a Baha'i though you have to love the Prophets of God in the way they
expected to be loved according to their Laws and Ordinances. What did the
Buddha have to say about this :-) You seem to be reluctant to talk about
your own religious beliefs :-)
> > Just out of interest over 98% of folk who call themselves " Bahai " are
> > members of the Bahai Faith :
> >
> > "At least 98% of the adherents of the Babi & Baha'i faiths belong to the
> > same church/denomination/religious body, the Baha'i World Faith (or
simply
> > "Baha'i Faith") with headquarters in Haifa, Israel."
> > (http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html#Baha'I)
>
>
> Since when have the Bayanis (i.e. what you call Babis) been members of
your
> creed?The Bayanis whom I know do not even recognise your prophet as Him
> Whom God shall manifest let alone belong to your church. You have lost the
> argument there BIG TIME ;-P
I am afraid you have gone down again they are part of the 2% :-) But then
again they are Babi's.
> > Tangible evidence of the support and love of Shoghi Effendi :-)
> > Tangible evidence that you are wrong :-)
>
> Tangible evidence that the deluded will love and believe in anything and
> everything,
To love the harmony between races, sexes, to be the only world religion that
has never killed members of other world religions, I really do hope you pick
me up on that one :-) , let's see if you can spot it :-), I don't think
you can :-), but we shall see :-) , that really is the best thing of all.
No doubt you regard all of those beliefs as deluded. That specifically goes
against your own religious beliefs :-)
> > Step away from your fantasies my friend and start looking at the reality
> of
> > the Bahai Faith :-)
>
> I have, that's why I stepped away ;-P
But you stepped towards Baha'u'llah in the first place :-) Your life still
seems orientated around Baha'u'llah's Glorious Faith or else you would not
spend so much time criticising it :-) Remember: The oxygen of publicity.
Dermod Ryder
"Robin Peters" <snoop...@aol.comspamness> wrote in message
news:20020820115236...@mb-cd.aol.com...
> There I'll agree - I've hear rumors to the effect that he has
unilaterally
> declared both TRB and ARB to be CB groups and is advising people to
shun those
> of us who post here.
>
> Wonder where he gets *his* authority to make such statements, given
that the
> UHJ is the one with the authority here.
Perhaps he has become the *GUARDIAN* of TRB/ARB, in which case the
House of Grumpies doesn't even get a look-in.
Dermod.
Freethought110
"Susan Maneck " <sma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020820094138...@mb-dh.aol.com...
> >
> >It's called leading a protege down a garden path,
>
> George, my protege? Oh, that's funny! Speaking of medications, have you
taken
> any for your paranoia lately?
Oh, yeah. A single dosage of reality check a day since 1996 keeps me going
all day long ;-)
--
Freethought110
Freethought110
"Robin Peters" <snoop...@aol.comspamness> wrote in message
news:20020820114549...@mb-cd.aol.com...
> >Since when have the Bayanis (i.e. what you call Babis) been members of
your
> >creed? The Bayanis whom I know do not even recognise your prophet as Him
> >Whom God shall manifest let alone belong to your church.
>
> Hmmm - where are there Bayanis?
In Iran and a few scattered communities of Iranian exiles in the West.
>Thought this group went out when Baha'u'llah
> declared.
Nope. Not only that, the Azalis (or Bayanis) produced some great political
and literary figures in the 20th century Iran.
>Or have I been deceived by TPTB in Haifa again?
They're pretty good at doing that when one is not on ones guard.
Freethought110
pretty sad person ranted:
> > F'r shoor! LOL :))
>
> Glad you agree :-)
I don't. Can you spell *facetious*? You have lost the argument ;-P
<big snip>
--
Freethought110
paul saunders-priem
>
> pretty sad person ranted:
>
>
> > > F'r shoor! LOL :))
> >
> > Glad you agree :-)
>
> I don't. Can you spell *facetious*? You have lost the argument ;-P
> <big snip>
I use voice recognition and sometimes it gets the words wrong :-)
It is pretty obvious to everybody that you are refusing to talk about
religion or your religious beliefs. This is because you are afraid to,
particularly if I raise issues about Buddhist history and contemporary
problems in Buddhism.
Unfortunately, I think there is a common problem these days, that many
people including you, prefer to keep to safe self referencing religious
interpretations rather than engaging with people about them. Every Baha'i I
have ever come across will always engage with people about religion no
matter how little or how much they know. That is a good thing about Bahai's
:-) The ultimate winning is the victory over self and that is found through
security in belief which leads into an ease with engaging with people about
any aspect of Baha'i belief. I can do that you can't :-)
In your religious beliefs, the way you implement and interpret them you seem
very frightened of engaging. I suppose that is one way to approach the
world to avoid winning or losing by simply not engaging at all.
Good luck to you my friend and I will pray for you.
I have just done that :-)
When you can engage because you are no longer so frightened I will indeed
discuss the assertions you make :-)
Warmest regards,
Paul Saunders Priem
www.bahai.org
> --
> Freethought110
>
>
Freethought110
pretty sad person:
> > > Glad you agree :-)
> >
> > I don't. Can you spell *facetious*? You have lost the argument ;-P
> > <big snip>
>
> I use voice recognition and sometimes it gets the words wrong :-)
>
> It is pretty obvious to everybody that you are refusing to talk about
> religion or your religious beliefs.
Genius, I am an agnostic and secular humanist. You figure out what my
*religious beliefs* are ;-P
>This is because you are afraid to,
> particularly if I raise issues about Buddhist history and contemporary
> problems in Buddhism.
Knock yourself out. You have lost the argument there BIG TIME already once.
Have at it again, if you wish ;-P I am always game to give you Baha'i
cultists a good thrashing on your imbecilities.
<snip>
--
Freethought110
Susan Maneck
I'm very much wondering where you got your interpretations for these events.
While it might be possible to view what happened in 1954 according to your
interpretation, since we don't know the governments rationale for condemning
the land in question. I expect it was because of the neglectful state into
which it had fallen as this had been a big problem with the CBs. The first case
you mentioned was in no way a case of 'stealing.'
You wrote:
ONe
>concerned a home near the Shrine of the Bab (don't know who owned it)
The land in question belonged to Baha'u'llah originally, it was part of what
the Aqdas called the waqf lands, the endowments for the Faith. So the question
here was who had legal rights to it? The Covenant breakers wanted to follow
Muslim inheritance laws which would have divided the estate between various
heirs. Shoghi Effendi was insisting that this was not the land belonging to
individuals over which the courts might decide who were the rightful heirs of
how much, but rather these lands were held in trust for the entire Baha'i
community of which he was the head.
warmest, Susan
Freethought110
--
Freethought110
"Susan Maneck " <sma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020821003745...@mb-fo.aol.com...
> Dear Milissa,
>
> I'm very much wondering where you got your interpretations for these
events.
I, however, would be even more suspicious of your interpretation of events.
> While it might be possible to view what happened in 1954 according to
your
> interpretation, since we don't know the governments rationale for
condemning
> the land in question.
It probably had Arab tenants (or once had had Arab tenants) as most of the
houses either condemned or expropriated by the Israeli government in the
50s. It would seem that Shoghi found a golden opening in this
hussle'n'bussle and made his move. I'd like to see the legal documents, an
inventory and history of purchasers, tenants, lessors, etc and all deeds
relating to the land in question before buying your official line. No,
Milissa has a valid point, but she needs to support it with some bona fide
"legal" documentation of the sort I have asked above. It shouldn't be too
hard to obtain those, as those would be held by the Haifa city public
records department.
> I expect it was because of the neglectful state into
> which it had fallen as this had been a big problem with the CBs.
Simple neglect would not be and was not a rationale for Israeli
expropriation of properties in Haifa and vicinities, especially of either
absentee Arab tenants or landlords.
<snip>
--
Freethought110
george.fleming2
Joel J. Marangella calls himself the third Guardian and uses these groups
to attack the Baha'i Faith.
> 609: Bahai's Cannot associate with Those who have left the Faith and are
> associating with Covenant breakers. (Page 185 Lights of Guidance).
>
> There is no excuse for believers continuing to associate with...and those
> who knowing everything, still insist on doing so, should be shunned by their
> fellow Baha'is. The same applies to people who have left the Cause and
> associate with. The point is that if the believers iknow and meet with
> people who are aquainted with Covenant Breakers there is no harm in this ,
> for such indivduals are not Baha'is and have nothing to do with the issues
> concerned. But those who have left the Cause, knowingly all, about such
> matters (AS ALL THE DISSIDENTS ON TALK/ALT RELIGION BAHAI) and deliberately
> associate with Covenant breakers (like Joel J. Marangella below) are aware
> of what they do, and we must not associate with them at all. It is for the
> Local Assembly, guided by the NSA, to enforce such decisions and protect the
> Cause in its area of Jurisdition".
>
> "The friends should, without too much dwelling on these negative things, be
> made to understand that some people are spirtually sick and that their
> disease is alas contagious. Some recover from it , as did MR....whose heart
> could not rest till he returned to the fold; others do not. (LIKE THE
> HARDENED BUNCH OF DISSIDENTS ON TALK RELIGION BAHA'I)< The Master and
> Baha'u'llah have taught us that associating with these souls is not likely
> to heal any of them at all, but on the contrary exposes one to grave danger
> of contagion. The history of the Faith has proved this over and over again.
> The only way we can prove to such people that they are wrong is to cencure
> their conduct.; if we sympathise with them we only fortify their perversity
> and waywardness"(On behalf of the Guardian Lights of Guidance page 185)
>
>
george.fleming2
george.fleming2
george.fleming2
george.fleming2
george.fleming2
BEWARE THOSE WHO DEBATE ON TALK/ALT RELIGION BAHAI ARE NOT TRUE BAHA'IS
george.fleming2
NON BAHAI'S BEWARE OF THOSE WHO DEBATE ON TALK/ALT RELIGION BAHAI ARE NOT
REAL BAHA'IS. THEY ARE EX-BAHA'IS WHO HAVE EITHER LEFT THE BAHAI FAITH OR
HAVE BEEN KICKED OUT FOR BAD BEHAVIOUR. ONE HAS ONLY TO LISTEN TO THEIR FOUL
LANGUAGE AND DEROGOTARY REMARKS EVEN AMONGST THEMSELVES TO REALISE HOW FAR
THEIR SOULS WILL BE FOREVER IN THE DARKNESS.
george.fleming2
BEWARE THOSE WHO DEBATE ON TALK/ALT RELIGION BAHAI ARE NOT REAL BAHA'IS
george.fleming2
NON BAHAI'S BEWARE THOSE WHO DEBATE ON TALK/ALT RELIGION BAHAI ARE NOT
george.fleming2
george.fleming2
NON BAHAI'S BEWARE OF THOSE WHO DEBATE ON TALK/ALT RELIGION BAHAI ARE NOT
REAL BAHA'IS. THEY ARE EX-BAHA'IS WHO HAVE EITHER LEFT THE BAHAI FAITH OR
HAVE BEEN KICKED OUT FOR BAD BEHAVIOUR. ONE HAS ONLY TO LISTEN TO THEIR FOUL
LANGUAGE AND DEROGOTARY REMARKS EVEN AMONGST THEMSELVES TO REALISE HOW FAR
THEIR SOULS WILL BE FOREVER IN THE DARKNESS.
george.fleming2
george.fleming2
Robin Peters
>House of Grumpies doesn't even get a look-in.
In which case, I see a "CBer alert" in his future.
Robin Peters
>
>>Thought this group went out when Baha'u'llah
>> declared.
>
>Nope. Not only that, the Azalis (or Bayanis) produced some great political
>and literary figures in the 20th century Iran.
Wow! I really *have* been deceived by the Universal House of Pancakes with
Bacon in Haifa. (Bacon, pork - get it?) I had no idea.
Thanks for the enlightenment, Nima.
Susan Maneck
>Simple neglect would not be and was not a rationale for Israeli
>expropriation of properties in Haifa and vicinities
then maybe they just failed to pay their taxes. ;-}
Robin Peters
Or the mortgage on the property.
Milissa
snippage
> It probably had Arab tenants (or once had had Arab tenants) as most of the
> houses either condemned or expropriated by the Israeli government in the
> 50s. It would seem that Shoghi found a golden opening in this
> hussle'n'bussle and made his move.
This is how I am basically understanding the first situation. The
second is harder to understand outside of a basic power struggle.
I'd like to see the legal documents, an
> inventory and history of purchasers, tenants, lessors, etc and all deeds
> relating to the land in question before buying your official line. No,
> Milissa has a valid point, but she needs to support it with some bona fide
> "legal" documentation of the sort I have asked above. It shouldn't be too
> hard to obtain those, as those would be held by the Haifa city public
> records department.
This would be an absolutely fascinating project. For the vast
majority of these conflicts, I have only Shoghi Effendi's (or the
Baha'is) side of things. But this is a very good idea.......maybe
there was a point in becoming an archivist after all! I think I'll
send their archivist an email.
Of course, from a legal standpoint, I suppose its all ancient history.
From his own cablegrams we know Shoghi Effendi played some real hard
ball, and it would be so very interesting to know *how* he was able to
convince the Mayor of Haifa.
Peace,
Milissa
Milissa
sma...@aol.com (Susan Maneck ) wrote in message news:<20020821003745...@mb-fo.aol.com>...
> Dear Milissa,
>
> I'm very much wondering where you got your interpretations for these events.
Well, from myself, of course. ;) I am believing Shoghi Effendi when
he wrote that he got the Israeli government to intervene in his favor.
> While it might be possible to view what happened in 1954 according to your
> interpretation, since we don't know the governments rationale for condemning
> the land in question.
No we don't. But for what bothers me about this, their rationale
doesn't really matter as I am only concerned with Shoghi Effendi's
behavior. I mean, he uses the fact that someone won't sell him land
at the price he wants as proof of their spiritual corruption. When he
tries to confiscate their land, he uses the fact that they fight for
their rights in court as further proof of their spiritual corruption.
I just don't get this!
> I expect it was because of the neglectful state into
> which it had fallen as this had been a big problem with the CBs.
According to them, it was because they simply didn't have the money.
Shoghi Effendi not only had access to the money of the Baha'i
community but he also apparently had good personal relations with the
Mayor. I honestly think Shoghi Effendi would have gone after it even
if it had been a palace...it was the location he wanted.
Now a visit to the archive would certainly clear up some questions,
such as whether neglected buildings entered into it.
> The first case
> you mentioned was in no way a case of 'stealing.'
Its definitely not in the same category as the second one, to be sure.
> The land in question belonged to Baha'u'llah originally, it was part of what
> the Aqdas called the waqf lands, the endowments for the Faith. So the question
> here was who had legal rights to it? The Covenant breakers wanted to follow
> Muslim inheritance laws which would have divided the estate between various
> heirs. Shoghi Effendi was insisting that this was not the land belonging to
> individuals over which the courts might decide who were the rightful heirs of
> how much, but rather these lands were held in trust for the entire Baha'i
> community of which he was the head.
Yes, I understand that this was how Shoghi Effendi saw it.
But the problem with this view, imho, is that for the previous 30
thirtys, according to his own admission in the cablegram, he and the
rest of the community recognized her as the owner of the very small
plot. As Baha'ullah died in 1892 and this was in the early 50s, I am
also assuming that it had already been inherited once, since she was
probably not even born when He died. (This is something to verify!)
Now, if this is true, and it had already been inherited once, I would
think that the CBs legal claim would be particularly strong. (from the
dates involved, I am assuming she inherited it at the time of
'Abdu'l-Baha's death.) Even if not true, the fact that Shoghi Effendi
offered to purchase it and continued to try over 30 years shows
recognition of her ownership.
It also makes me wonder what Baha'i Law would say about it. If the
Centre of the Faith wants your land (ok, hold in trust) for the
Community, do you have to give it up? I know this must sound like a
crazy question, but when people are declared CB for not giving up
family relationships, why should I think property any different?
Granted, there are lots of unknowns here. Want to go to the Haifa
archives with me? But the facts that aren't disputed bother me
enough. I hope that Fareed's sister 1) had her own name and 2) got
some type of compensation from the Israeli gov't. Don't know the
answer to either of these, yet.
Peace,
Milissa
Freethought110
"Susan Maneck " <sma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020821135226...@mb-mu.aol.com...
> >
> >Simple neglect would not be and was not a rationale for Israeli
> >expropriation of properties in Haifa and vicinities
>
> then maybe they just failed to pay their taxes. ;-}
Meaning? ;-P
--
Freethought110
Freethought110
"Robin Peters" <snoop...@aol.comspamness> wrote in message
news:20020821115330...@mb-mt.aol.com...
> Wow! I really *have* been deceived by the Universal House of Pancakes with
> Bacon in Haifa. (Bacon, pork - get it?) I had no idea.
>
> Thanks for the enlightenment, Nima.
Welcome :) Believe it or not, I went to a Bayani 19 Day Feast right here in
OZ over a year and a half ago. It was no different than most Persian Baha'i
Feasts I was once used to. The only significant differences are that instead
of Baha'u'llah, `Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi's writings being read, the
writings of the Bab, Quddus and Azal are read, and occasionally the poetry
of Tahirih. And there is no administrative portion! They move from devotions
straight to the social portion. The Persian Bayanis I know here are a very
nice, hospitable bunch of people, they just suffer from the same skewed
us/them exclusivistic malady as all other religionists, and they are just as
fanatically one-dimensional as any Muslim or Baha'i. What turned me off
about them especially is their hyper-secretiveness and that they are
obsessed with the question of Azal's legitimacy and Baha'u'llah's
illegitimacy on the same order as the Remeyites are with their guardian vs
uhj. Oh, and they don't believe the Bab is buried on Mt Carmel!
--
Freethought110
Sekhmet
>
>Meaning? ;-P
Meaning the place may have been seized by the government for nonpayment of
taxes. Happens all the time...
--Sekhmet
Freethought110
"Sekhmet" <sekhm...@aol.com.nz> wrote in message
news:20020821193557...@mb-fd.aol.com...
That is why I am saying official documentation and deeds are required to
find exactly what was going on. But, that aside, I am not aware that the
Israeli government was taxing properties of Arab tenants and landlords until
much later. 1954 is only 6 years after Israel was founded and there was a
string of legal issues surrounding taxing Arabs on Israeli territory until
they were resolved in the affirmative in the 1960s.
--
Freethought110
Sekhmet
>That is why I am saying official documentation and deeds are
>required to find exactly what was going on.
Agreed.
>But, that aside, I am not aware that the
>Israeli government was taxing properties of Arab tenants and
>landlords until much later. 1954 is only 6 years after Israel was
>founded and there was a string of legal issues surrounding
>taxing Arabs on Israeli territory until they were resolved in the
>affirmative in the 1960s.
Hmmm. It would be interesting to know what actually happened; hopefully if
somebody finds out they will post it here.
--Sekhmet
Susan Maneck
>convince the Mayor of Haifa.
>
Maybe because he was both legally and morally right.
Susan Maneck
>Well, from myself, of course. ;) I am believing Shoghi Effendi when
>he wrote that he got the Israeli government to intervene in his favor.
Dear Milissa,
You weren't just saying that the government ruled in his favor, you are saying
he stole the land. I want to know where you got *that* interpretation of
events.
> I mean, he uses the fact that someone won't sell him land
>at the price he wants as proof of their spiritual corruption.
Look, if someone claims to be a Baha'i would let a house right next to the
Bab's Shrine go to the dogs all the while trying to charge an extortionist rate
for someone who is just trying to make those shrines as beautiful as possible?
>> I expect it was because of the neglectful state into
>> which it had fallen as this had been a big problem with the CBs.
>
>According to them, it was because they simply didn't have the money.
So why can't they get a job? You don't live in a house you can't afford to keep
up.
>
>Now a visit to the archive would certainly clear up some questions,
>such as whether neglected buildings entered into it.
Which archives? Why not check the Israeli government records?
>If the
>Centre of the Faith wants your land (ok, hold in trust) for the
>Community, do you have to give it up?
Big difference between a 'trust' and your own land, Milissa. But let's say that
only applies to the one case and not this old lady. At first Shoghi Effendi
wanted to buy it fairly. She wanted an extortionist price which he refused to
pay. Eventually she lost the land anyhow to the government for reasons you
don't know and they gave it to the Guardian. What is the problem here unless
you know for sure that the government had no right to take her land?
> I know this must sound like a
>crazy question, but when people are declared CB for not giving up
>family relationships, why should I think property any different?
Doesn't follow Milissa. Look how Shoghi Effendi describes the rectitude of
conduct required of a believer even in relationship to an enemy of the Faith or
a Covenant breaker:
"It must be demonstrated in the impartiality of every defender of the Faith
against its enemies, in his fair-mindedness in recognizing any merits that
enemy may possess, and in his honesty in discharging any obligations he may
have towards him."
>Want to go to the Haifa
>archives with me?
If you mean the Baha'i archives, I doubt if it is there. Check the government
archives.
Freethought110
Shoghi's morality. If this is what happened, Shoghi's morality is of the
same order as Nazis claiming Jewish property in the Reich or the Khomeinists
expropriating the properties of Baha'is.
--
Freethought110
"Susan Maneck " <sma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020822003216...@mb-cg.aol.com...
Freethought110
"Susan Maneck " <sma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020822004756...@mb-cg.aol.com...
>You weren't just saying that the government ruled in his favor, you are
saying
>he stole the land.
Which he probably was.
>I want to know where you got *that* interpretation of
>events.
It's a logical inference from the circumstantial facts given.
> I mean, he uses the fact that someone won't sell him land
>at the price he wants as proof of their spiritual corruption.
Ditto! LOL :))
>Look, if someone claims to be a Baha'i would let a house right next to the
>Bab's Shrine go to the dogs all the while trying to charge an extortionist
rate
>for someone who is just trying to make those shrines as beautiful as
possible?
Whoopy doo-da! If someone has a legitimate title to a property, then that
the the land is in proximity to the Shrine of the Bab is irrelevant, let
alone its condition (that is the owners business not Comrade Effendi's).
Shoghi Effendi being the sleazy opportunist, power-mad meglomaniac that he
was, of course didn't care. He found an opportunity and milked it for
everything it was worth. I guess you people are quite happy to put people
out of their own property and homes because of your 'Shrines'. Ends justify
means and all, and Shoghi was a master at that tactic. So much for Shoghi's
morality.
<snip>
--
Freethought110
Michael McKenny
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"My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard."
(Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2)