The Nineteen Years
bayani....@gmail.com
In my earlier post I discussed Ghiyath & Mustaghath and how Mirza
Husayn-Ali and his successors desperately tried to reduce it to a '19'
years based on a distorted and false interpretation of what appears in
the book of Haykal.
http://groups.google.com/group/talk.religion.bahai/browse_thread/thread/2c96788f7338b19d/4a78d8ed2dfb2f3d
I invite you this time to look deep into yet another attempt by Bahais
to reduce the Mustaghatah to 19 years by means of distortion.
In an epistle, penned in his own handwriting-Autograph Epistles of the
Primal Point and of his amanuensis Sayyid Hussayn of Yazd, printed, P.
20
http://www.bayanic.com/showPict.php?id=some&ref=31&err=0&curr=
and intended "to illuminate the Writing-School or primary school of
Him-Whom-God-Will-Make-Manifest" The Primal Point addresses himself to
Him-Whom-God-Will-Make-Manifest and states: The Bayan and all that is
in it is a present from me to you. If in the next resurrection, you
were to dismiss all the people of the Bayan with a gesture of hand as
you suck milk at the breast of your mother will be praiseworthy for
your gesture. But undoubtedly you will have patience for nineteen
years to reward those who embrace the Bayani fruit as a favour your
part.
The text sums as follows:
در مکتب خانة من یظهره الله منور فرمایند
" .. علی ان البیان و من فیه هدیه منی الیک .. و اقوال لو تعزلن فی لقیمه
الاخری من فی البیان حین الذی تشرب اللبن من ثدی امک باشارة من یدیک لکنت
محموداَ فی اشارتک ولو انه لاریب فیه لتصبرن تسعة عشر سنة لتجزی من دان
به فضلا من عندک"
Bahais ignore the title of this tablet for its obvious implication;
that is the illumination of the primary schools with this tablet would
be a dead letter if the claim made by Mirza Husayn-Ali who was at the
age of 50 were to be true.
In Aqdas, Mirza Husayn-Ali refers to the epistle and responds angrily
to it by saying:
"O People of Al-Bayan, we entered the school of God while you were
reclining, and we carefully observed the tablet while you were asleep,
By God, the true one, we read it before its descent, but you were
careless."
The only thing we get out of this response is that he is offended by
it.
We know that Mirza Husayn-Ali learned to read and write in his child-
hood just like any other child. Moreover we (Bayanis) expect that the
parents of HWGSMM would not recognise their child to have been blessed
with such station and hence he would be put into a primary school like
every other child as the Primal Point was.
Therefore Mirza Husayn-Ali’s response does help his case here at all.
There is of course the issue of whether he did study Bayanic writings
or not which is a different subject.
Abbas also comes to the help of his father and claims the school is
meant to be a spiritual one not a physical one. He doesn’t however
explain where People of Bayan would find this school to illuminate its
walls with this tablet!
And that was just the title.
Bahais have taken out the 19 years out of its context here and produce
it as a proof that WHGSMM would have to wait for no more than 19
years.
Firstly, the middle part of the tablet says: “if …… you were to
dismiss all the people of the Bayan with a gesture of hand as you suck
milk at the breast of your mother will be praiseworthy for your
gesture.”
This suggests that HWGSMM would spend the period of his infancy inside
of the Bayanic era. We know that at the time this tablet was revealed
Mirza Husayn-Ali had well passed the stage of an infant and was a
grown up man. And more importantly Mirza Husayn-Ali could not have
dismissed People of Bayan “whilst he was sucking milk from the breast
of her mother” because there was no such thing as a Bayani when this
was happening.
Now, let’s get to the latter part of the passage which is of interest
to Bahais: “But undoubtedly you will have patience for nineteen years
to reward those who embrace the Bayani fruit as a favour your part”.
You can’t fully understand this bit unless you read it as part of the
whole passage. The bit that is missing here and fully dissolves the
Bahai claim, comes at the beginning of the passage: “If in the next
resurrection”.
Now, let’s review what ‘resurrection means’:
The meaning of the day of resurrection: Chapter 7 of Unity 2 of
Persian Bayan:
“Concerning the explanation of the Day of Resurrection.
The substance of this chapter is that the meaning of 'the Day of
Resurrection' is the day of the appearance of the Tree of Reality.”
And, how long will the resurrection period last for: from the same
chapter:
“Similarly, from the time of the appearance of the Tree of the Bayan
until its disappearance in the Resurrection of the Messenger of God,
which
was promised by God in the Qur'an.”
Therefore the resurrection of Islam commenced in 1844 and ended in
1850 when the Sun of the Truth, the Primal Point was martyred.
However, the beginning of the Bayanic era was the beginning of the
sixth year, i.e. 1850 A.D which according to the book of ‘5 Modes’ by
the Primal Point was the commencement of ‘Olowhiyyat (divinity), as
opposed to the first 5 years which were the periods of Bab-hood and
Qaem-hood:
Book of 5 Modes Page 11:
"You named me after that which has a numerical value of five (i.e.
BAB) since you had set four Gates for me; Then, after these years, you
made me manifest over all things by the name Qaim and elevated the
mention of your self in the year five with glory. In the sixth year,
you mentioned the name of your self, your glorious and mighty name."
To summarise: In the resurrection of Islam which commenced in 1844 and
ended in 1850, the Primal Point took 5 years before He closed curtain
on Islam and proclaimed the commencement of the Bayanic era. The
Primal Point waited 5 years before He dismissed anyone who had yet
remained in Islam despite 5 years of preparation.
Having understood what resurrection means, when it begins, when it
ends and how it related to the next resurrection, we now go back to
the passage in question:
“If in the next resurrection, you were to dismiss all the people of
the Bayan with a gesture of hand as you suck milk at the breast of
your mother will be praiseworthy for your gesture. But undoubtedly you
will have patience for nineteen years to reward those who embrace the
Bayani fruit as a favour your part.”
It does not say “if from the resurrection of Islam …”. It says “If in
the next resurrection …”.
What this passage means is that after the appearance of HWGSMM, he
would wait for 19 years (as opposed to the 5 years which the Primal
Point waited) before he dismisses anyone who still remained in the
religion of Bayan despite what will be 19 years of preparing of people
of Bayan to recognise HWGSMM.
Steve Blomberg
wjhonson
Wahid Azal
> How many Bayanis are there in the world?
Quite a few. But numbers don't mean anything otherwise diamonds would
be worthless.
W
bayani....@gmail.com
> How many Bayanis are there in the world?
Irrelevant question to the topic here.
Suppose there is none.
Now is there one Bahai amongst the 6 million Bahais who can defend the
Bahai bogus claims such as those I have discussed here and earlier. We
only need one.
Asparagus
<bayani....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1174641845.0...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
we suppose you are too stupid to see that nobody can defend bogus claims
people only defend valid claims
as you have contempt upfront for any who disagree with you nobody is going
to discuss anything with you
Asparagus
"Wahid Azal" <wahid...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1174639770.9...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
that is the same argument that the baha'is would use to justify their small
numbers can you not come up with something specifically banyani to show why
there are even fewer of them than there are baha'is in the world
wjhonson
> "Wahid Azal" <wahidaza...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Numbers mean something to someone who would like to know the answer.
The Baha'i apparatus claims that the number of Bayanis is vanishingly
tiny. It would be interesting to know what the Bayanis themselves
think as well.
stevebl...@yahoo.com
> "Wahid Azal" <wahidaza...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Can you tell me why there are a lot more fools like you on earth than
those who are knowledgable, wise and can reason?
wjhonson
And so we see what happens when someone is cornered on an argument,
they resort to name-calling like a third-grade student. Ad hominem
attacks can be seen plainly for what they are, an attempt to redirect
the conversation away from the facts.
stevebl...@yahoo.com
> On Mar 23, 5:28 am, "Asparagus" <k...@spimspam.com> wrote:
>
> > "Wahid Azal" <wahidaza...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:1174639770.9...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > On Mar 23, 4:21 pm, "wjhonson" <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> > >> How many Bayanis are there in the world?
>
> > > Quite a few. But numbers don't mean anything otherwise diamonds would
> > > be worthless.
>
> > that is the same argument that the baha'is would use to justify their small
> > numbers can you not come up with something specifically banyani to show why
> > there are even fewer of them than there are baha'is in the world
>
> Numbers mean something to someone who would like to know the answer.
give you the answer which Ihave repeatedly given earlier in this
forum:
Bayanis mainly live in Iran. They do not have any administratve
organisation. They do not need to register themselves as such to be a
Bayani. They mainly register themselves in privacy with God.
As such there is no figure available. However, the figure is something
between 2000 and 5000.
> The Baha'i apparatus claims that the number of Bayanis is vanishingly
> tiny. It would be interesting to know what the Bayanis themselves
> think as well.
Well, even if it was 5000, it would be "tiny" compared to the
6,000,000 they claim to be Bahais.
But what is sand compared to diamond? I am not saying Bahais are worth
the sand grains, I am talking about what is behind Bahaism and Bayani
religion. I am talking about truth and untruth.
Problem: How can you convince someone that a universal religion that
was to last for 1500 to 2000 years lasted nothing?
Solution: Don't bring it up.
Problem: What if they find out?
Solution: Make up something. (The 19 years)
The number of Bahais has nothing to do with the validity or the
strength of the Bahai claim. Its 'success' is mainly due to:
Paint Mirza Husayn-Ali with different colors acceptable to other
faith,
Historical reason,
Bahai marketting,
Abscence of Bayanis to expose the Bahai claims during the last century
Popularisation of Bahaism by focusing on ancient idealsims such as
'world peace', 'unity', etc. appealing to the Westerners
Unavailability of Bayani resources to the Westerners
Alignment of the Bahai institutions with the West
Active acquisition of wealth
Missionaries
...
The result is that majority of Bahais are not even aware of the
religion of Bayan on which Mirza Husayn-Ali stood to make his claim.
There you have it. A Bahai claim confirmed by a Bayani. Can we now get
back to the Point!
Steve Blomberg
stevebl...@yahoo.com
> <bayani.belie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1174641845.0...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Mar 23, 5:21 pm, "wjhonson" <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> How many Bayanis are there in the world?
>
> > Irrelevant question to the topic here.
>
> > Suppose there is none.
> > Now is there one Bahai amongst the 6 million Bahais who can defend the
> > Bahai bogus claims such as those I have discussed here and earlier. We
> > only need one.
>
> we suppose you are too stupid to see that nobody can defend bogus claims
> people only defend valid claims
This is an example of a Bahai answer (despite his denial). His
intelligence does not allow him to understand what is said; he has no
clue; he is unable to get someone else to answer it; he is rude and
abusive and he sheds crocodile tears when his abuse is returned. His
argument is as much valued as Dead Weed.
>
> as you have contempt upfront for any who disagree with you nobody is going
> to discuss anything with you
The only ones who have my contempt are those ones like you who show
contempt. Do not be rude and abusive. Behave in a civilised manner.
Your lousy excuse is just that: laughable!
Now, go to your masters and get me some answer. Remember! If you come
back with abuse, you will have it returned in multitude! And then you
will have to cry more!
stevebl...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Which argument are we talking about?
wjhonson
>
> - Show quoted text -
Do Bayanis have missionaries? And do Bayanis have temples, churches,
mosques, meeting halls?
stevebl...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
No.
Wahid Azal
> Do Bayanis have missionaries?
Yes. We are appointed directly by the Primal Point, the Letters of the
Living and Subh-i-Azal.
>And do Bayanis have temples, churches,
> mosques, meeting halls?
Yes. We have the Temple (haykal) of Nature and the Temple of the Human
Being (insan) as our places of worship.
W
wjhonson
The same Subh-i-Azal who has been dead for quite some time?
Who is the current Primal Point?
stevebl...@yahoo.com
> Who is the current Primal Point?
Although you have fully diverted this thread to something completely
different, your questions will not be left unanswered, as no Bahai
appears to be forthcoming with anyhing that concerns the main topic of
this thread anyway.
Subh-i Azal was the Mirror of the Primal Point. The station of
Mirrorship replaced the concept of succession. The Primal Point saw
himself in Subh-i Azal, in other words the same light in the Primal
Point was reflected in full in Subh-i Azal. For this reason in his
tablets, He calls him "you are me and I am you".
http://www.bayanic.com/lib/fwd/some/Some-FWD.html
And for this reason he was seen to be writing the remaining 8 Wahids
of Bayan.
The command of the religion of Bayan after Subh-i Azal and according
to the Will of the Primal Point is delivered to witnesses of Bayan
(i..e Bayanis).
http://www.bayanic.com/lib/fwd/vesayat/Vesayat-FWD.html
The Primal Point will return in the next manifestation as the first
beliver, he will be His first letter of the Living as Prophet Muhammad
returned in the Bayanic cycle as the first believer in Bab-ul-Bab.
Your question as to who is the current Primal Point from a Bayani is
rather strange and making no sense.
Your question of "The same Subh-i-Azal who has been dead for quite
some time? " also makes no sense and I can't answer unless I know what
you clarify.
Steve Blomberg
wjhonson
> On Mar 25, 5:15 am, "wjhonson" <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 24, 12:14 am, "Wahid Azal" <wahidaza...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 24, 1:03 pm, "wjhonson" <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Do Bayanis have missionaries?
>
> > > Yes. We are appointed directly by the Primal Point, the Letters of the
> > > Living and Subh-i-Azal.
>
> > > >And do Bayanis have temples, churches,
> > > > mosques, meeting halls?
>
> > > Yes. We have the Temple (haykal) of Nature and the Temple of the Human
> > > Being (insan) as our places of worship.
>
> > > W
>
> > The same Subh-i-Azal who has been dead for quite some time?
>
> What do you exactly mean?> Who is the current Primal Point?
>
> And by this?
>
> Although you have fully diverted this thread to something completely
> different, your questions will not be left unanswered, as no Bahai
> appears to be forthcoming with anyhing that concerns the main topic of
> this thread anyway.
>
> Subh-i Azal was the Mirror of the Primal Point. The station of
> Mirrorship replaced the concept of succession. The Primal Point saw
> himself in Subh-i Azal, in other words the same light in the Primal
> Point was reflected in full in Subh-i Azal. For this reason in his
>
> And for this reason he was seen to be writing the remaining 8 Wahids
> of Bayan.
> The command of the religion of Bayan after Subh-i Azal and according
> to the Will of the Primal Point is delivered to witnesses of Bayan
>
> The Primal Point will return in the next manifestation as the first
> beliver, he will be His first letter of the Living as Prophet Muhammad
> returned in the Bayanic cycle as the first believer in Bab-ul-Bab.
> Your question as to who is the current Primal Point from a Bayani is
> rather strange and making no sense.
> Your question of "The same Subh-i-Azal who has been dead for quite
> some time? " also makes no sense and I can't answer unless I know what
> you clarify.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Steve if you read up this thread you will see that I asked "Do the
Bayani have missionaries?" The question is, do the Bayani TODAY have
missionaries. The question was answered as "Yes we ARE appointed by
Subh-i-Azal". That response is in the present tense, meaning, today
people can still be appointed by Subh-i-Azal.
Since Subh-i-Azal has been dead for many decades, should not the
response say "We WERE appointed by Subh-i-Azal". The other possible
interpretation would be that today there is someone named Subh-i-Azal
who is still today appointing missionaries.
Same reasoning with Primary Point, and Letters of the Living. If all
these people have been dead for a hundred years then how are
missionaries appointed today? All the missionaries appointed in the
past are dead.
So my question is, how are missionaries appointed today? Do the Bayani
have missionaries today? Not did they in the past.
Hope that's more clear.
Will Johnson
stevebl...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks for the clarification.
Please note that he said "by the Primal Point, the Letters of the
Living and Subh-i-Azal".
When Nima said "we ARE appointed ..", his statement is based on the
authority of the Will of the Primal Point which will remain living and
active until the next manifestation. TODAY, witnesses of Bayan are
appointed by the authority given to them by the Will of the Primal
Point when he WAS bodily alive.
The witnesses of Bayan are people who believe in the religion of Bayan
and fulfil its provisions.
Subh-i Azal left no Will. His Will was the Will of the Primal Point.
The Primal Point, Subh-i Azal and Letters of Living constitute the
Letters of the Unity (Wahid = 19).
Steve
Wahid Azal
> The same Subh-i-Azal who has been dead for quite some time?
The Beings of Light (ashkhas daw') do not experience death. They
merely drop the body like one would drop a garment.
> Who is the current Primal Point?
He of the Seven Letters.
W
PaulHammond
> The Nineteen Years
>
> In my earlier post I discussed Ghiyath & Mustaghath and how Mirza
> Husayn-Ali and his successors desperately tried to reduce it to a '19'
> years based on a distorted and false interpretation of what appears in
>
> I invite you this time to look deep into yet another attempt by Bahais
> to reduce the Mustaghatah to 19 years by means of distortion.
>
> In an epistle, penned in his own handwriting-Autograph Epistles of the
> Primal Point and of his amanuensis Sayyid Hussayn of Yazd, printed, P.
>
> and intended "to illuminate the Writing-School or primary school of
> Him-Whom-God-Will-Make-Manifest" The Primal Point addresses himself to
> Him-Whom-God-Will-Make-Manifest and states: The Bayan and all that is
> in it is a present from me to you. If in the next resurrection, you
> were to dismiss all the people of the Bayan with a gesture of hand as
> you suck milk at the breast of your mother will be praiseworthy for
> your gesture. But undoubtedly you will have patience for nineteen
> years to reward those who embrace the Bayani fruit as a favour your
> part.
>
> The text sums as follows:
> در مکتب خانة من یظهره الله منور فرمایند
> " .. علی ان البیان و من فیه هدیه منی الیک .. و اقوال لو تعزلن فی لقیمه
> الاخری من فی البیان حین الذی تشرب اللبن من ثدی امک باشارة من یدیک لکنت
> محموداَ فی اشارتک ولو انه لاریب فیه لتصبرن تسعة عشر سنة لتجزی من دان
> به فضلا من عندک"
>
> Bahais ignore the title of this tablet for its obvious implication;
> that is the illumination of the primary schools with this tablet would
> be a dead letter if the claim made by Mirza Husayn-Ali who was at the
> age of 50 were to be true.
>
I don't understand this at all. The clause "would be a dead letter if
the claim made by Mirza Husayn-ALi who was at the age
of 50 were to be true" doesn't make sense.
> In Aqdas, Mirza Husayn-Ali refers to the epistle and responds angrily
> to it by saying:
> "O People of Al-Bayan, we entered the school of God while you were
> reclining, and we carefully observed the tablet while you were asleep,
> By God, the true one, we read it before its descent, but you were
> careless."
>
> The only thing we get out of this response is that he is offended by
> it.
I don't get that from it at all. He seems to be claiming innate
knowledge of the Bab's writings. Doesn't sound particularly
angry to me.
"we read it before its descent" = "I knew what was written
in it before it was written".
> We know that Mirza Husayn-Ali learned to read and write in his child-
> hood just like any other child. Moreover we (Bayanis) expect that the
> parents of HWGSMM would not recognise their child to have been blessed
> with such station and hence he would be put into a primary school like
> every other child as the Primal Point was.
>
I don't believe the Bab was referring to a real, actual and physical
primary school.
> Therefore Mirza Husayn-Ali’s response does help his case here at all.
> There is of course the issue of whether he did study Bayanic writings
> or not which is a different subject.
>
Of course he did! He was a Babi.
> Abbas also comes to the help of his father and claims the school is
> meant to be a spiritual one not a physical one. He doesn’t however
> explain where People of Bayan would find this school to illuminate its
> walls with this tablet!
>
> And that was just the title.
>
> Bahais have taken out the 19 years out of its context here and produce
> it as a proof that WHGSMM would have to wait for no more than 19
> years.
>
> Firstly, the middle part of the tablet says: “if …… you were to
> dismiss all the people of the Bayan with a gesture of hand as you suck
> milk at the breast of your mother will be praiseworthy for your
> gesture.”
> This suggests that HWGSMM would spend the period of his infancy inside
> of the Bayanic era.
No it doesn't. That's simply your self-serving interpretation.
What it appears to mean to me is the Bab's oft-expressed
notion that the WHOLE of his dispensation could be
considered a gift to that of "Him Whom God will etc. Etc."
"If you were to dismiss all the people with a wave of
your infant hand"
"If you were to regard the entirety of my life's work as
but a teardrop in the expanse of the ocean of your
revelation"
"May my life be his sacrfice".
> We know that at the time this tablet was revealed
> Mirza Husayn-Ali had well passed the stage of an infant and was a
> grown up man. And more importantly Mirza Husayn-Ali could not have
> dismissed People of Bayan “whilst he was sucking milk from the breast
> of her mother” because there was no such thing as a Bayani when this
> was happening.
>
Husayn Ali was, indeed, two years *older* than the Bab.
But I don't think this passage is a gross allusion to the actual
physical age of "Him Whom etc etc" at all. Why do you think so?
> Now, let’s get to the latter part of the passage which is of interest
> to Bahais: “But undoubtedly you will have patience for nineteen years
> to reward those who embrace the Bayani fruit as a favour your part”.
>
> You can’t fully understand this bit unless you read it as part of the
> whole passage. The bit that is missing here and fully dissolves the
> Bahai claim, comes at the beginning of the passage: “If in the next
> resurrection”.
>
That means "next manifestation" undoubtedly - but lets see what
you make of it:
Okay - mystical arguments as to why you think we should consider
the first five years of the Bab's "appearance" as being "prelude",
so that year one should be 1850.
Just as a point of information, therefore - which year is actually
counted as year one by Bayanis? Do you consider yourselves
5 years behind the year as counted by Baha'is?
> Having understood what resurrection means, when it begins, when it
> ends and how it related to the next resurrection, we now go back to
> the passage in question:
>
> “If in the next resurrection, you were to dismiss all the people of
> the Bayan with a gesture of hand as you suck milk at the breast of
> your mother will be praiseworthy for your gesture. But undoubtedly you
> will have patience for nineteen years to reward those who embrace the
> Bayani fruit as a favour your part.”
>
> It does not say “if from the resurrection of Islam …”. It says “If in
> the next resurrection …”.
> What this passage means is that after the appearance of HWGSMM, he
> would wait for 19 years (as opposed to the 5 years which the Primal
> Point waited) before he dismisses anyone who still remained in the
> religion of Bayan despite what will be 19 years of preparing of people
> of Bayan to recognise HWGSMM.
>
Well, Baha'is of course consider 1844 + 19 = 1863, which is
when Baha'u'llah was declaring himself to be "Him Whom etc. etc."
to his close company at the garden of Ridvan.
I don't see anything conclusive in your arguments to show that
the Baha'is are wrong to think that.
Paul
wjhonson
Wahid, do Bayanis have missionaries who are alive today?
I know that Subh could have appointed missionaries, but they would all
be dead.
Will Johnson
wjhonson
>
> - Show quoted text -
Are you saying that every Bayani is a missionary? I wish you could be
more clear. The way you've expressed it above it very confusing. Do
the Bayani actively recruit people to join the faith? That to me is
what a missionary does, not just a person who believes, but a person
who recruits.
Will Johnson
Baha'i Censorship - See Website
Please see my response to a number of your posts at
Re: 3-21-07 - Sohrab > an isolated, self-centered, self-satisfied community (431)
--
Frederick Glaysher
The Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/
Wahid Azal
> Wahid, do Bayanis have missionaries who are alive today?
The mind who only thinks in terms of numbers and missionaries, is an
exotericist at core a materialist totally entrapped and imprisoned
within the illusion of solidification, the world of quantity (matter)
i.e. the limit of the privation which stands as an isthmus between the
celestial worlds and hell (i.e. qlippoth). The Bayanis are initiates
and adepts and as such are pure esotericists. We occupy a completely
different plane of Reality, which is quantum levels higher than the
bahaim, and so missionaries and numbers mean nothing.
> I know that Subh could have appointed missionaries, but they would all
> be dead.
That which truly Lives never dies whereas that which is truly dead
never Lives, so let the dead (the bahaim) bury the dead (their
founders). If you truly wish to understand what this means, ponder and
meditate on the following Tale of the Occidental Exile by Suhrawardi
below.
W
I
1. Beginning of the Recital. Once upon a time, my brother 'Asim and I
undertook a journey to the land of the Occident, being from the land
across the river, to hunt certain shore birds from the Green Sea.
2. Suddenly we came upon "the city whose inhabitants are oppressors"
(4:77), I mean the city of Qayrawân.
3. The inhabitants noticed our sudden arrival and gathered that we
were
the children of a Shaykh known as al-Hâdi ibn al-Khayr (the Guide son
of the Good) the Yemenite.
4. They surrounded us, tied us up in chains and a yoke of iron, and
threw us as prisoners into an infinitely deep pit.
5. A high castle fortified with many towers stood over the empty pit
into which we had been thrown.
6. We were told: "You commit no offense if you climb up to the castle
when night falls and you have no clothes on. But at daybreak you
absolutely must return to the bottom of the pit."
7. In the bottom of the pit there certainly was "darkness upon
darkness" (24:40). When we extended our hands we could scarcely see
them.
8. But during the hours of night we climbed up to the castle that
stood
over the immensity of space and we looked in through one of its
windows. Often doves came to us from the forests of Yemen and told us
how things were in that forbidden region. Sometimes a bright light
from
Yemen visited us, whose bright flash from the "right side" (28:30),
from the "oriental" side, told us about the family living in the Najd.
A breeze filled with the aromatic scent of the arak awakened in us
ecstasy after ecstasy. Then we gasped from desire and nostalgia for
our
homeland.
9. Thus we climbed up at night and got back down during the day. Then,
one night when the moon was full, we saw a hoopoe (27:20), it came
through the window and greeted us. In its beak there was a message
that
came "from a blessed spot on the right side of the valley, from inside
a bush" (28:30).
10. It said to us: "I have seen (27:20) the means of your delivery and
bring both of you 'truthful news from the Kingdom of Sheba' (27:22).
All is explained in this message from your father."
11. We took cognizance of the message. This is what it said: "You are
being addressed by al-Hâdi your father. In the Name of God the
Compassionate, the Most Merciful. We long for you, but you feel no
nostalgia. We call you, but you don't start your journey. We give you
signs, but you don't understand them".
12. Then the writer gave me directions in the message, like this: "You
there, if you want to save yourself at the same time as your brother,
don't wait with resuming you journey. Grab a hold of our cable, that
is, of (the nodes of) the Dragon of the Heaven of the Moon over the
spiritual world that rules the ends of the ecliptic."
13. When you have arrived in the "valley of the ants" (27:18) shake
the
hem of your robe and say: "Glory be to God who has brought me back to
life after having cut my body to pieces." (2:244 and 261) "To Him we
shall return who is our Resurrection." (67:15) Then be finished with
your relatives.
14. Be no longer concerned with your wife, "because she is among those
who stay behind." (15:60 and 29:31) "Go where you are commanded,"
(15:62) "for these people will be utterly destroyed by tomorrow
morning." (15:66) Get into the boat and say: "In the Name of God, may
it sail and arrive at a port!" (11:43)
II
15. Everything that would happen en route was explained in the letter.
The hoopoe went ahead and the sun was just above our heads when we
arrived at the edge of darkness. We took our places in the vessel and
it carried us "to the wilderness in the mountains." (11:44) Our plan
was to climb mount Sinai and then to visit the oratory of our father.
16. Then "the floods rose" separating me from my brother and "he was
among those who were swallowed up." (11:45)
17. Then I understood that the time of the occurrence of the threat
that was the concern of my people was the morning. "Isn't morning
near?" (11:83)
18. I knew that "the city that surrenders itself to
wickedness" (21:74)
will be turned upside down "from top to bottom" (11:84) and that it
would rain "bricks of clay upon them." (11:84)
19. When we came to the place where the floods dashed against each
other and the waves rolled, I took the nurse who had nursed me and
threw her into the sea.
20. But we traveled on a ship "made of planks and nails." (54:13) Thus
we voluntarily damaged it (18:78) in the belief that there was a king
behind us who "took every ship by force." (18:78)
21. And the "laden ship" (the ark, 26:119) carried us past the island
of Gôg and Mâgôg (18:93 ff.) on the left side of mount al-Jûdî
(11:46).
22. However, there were artisans with me who worked for me and I had
at
my disposition the source of molten copper. I told the artisans: "Blow
on the iron until it becomes like fire" (that I may throw the molten
copper on it, 18:95). Next I erected a barricade so that I was
separated from Gôg and Mâgôg (18:94).
23. Then I truly realized that "the promise of your Lord is true"
(18:98).
24. During the journey I saw the pits of 'Ad and Thamûd; I crossed the
region and "it was desolate and in ruins" (2:261 and 22:44).
25. Then I took the two burdens and the spheres and put them and the
artisans in a bottle that I had made into a round shape, with lines
like circles on it.
26. I cut off the currents of living water from the realm of the
heavens.
27. When the flow of water was cut off to the mill, the building
collapsed and the air supply disappeared.
28. I flung the Sphere of Spheres against the heavens so that it
pulverized the sun, moon and stars.
29. Then I escaped from the fourteen coffins and the ten tombs where
the shadow of God comes to life again, the kind that is "drawn little
by little" (25:48) to the hieratic world after "the sun has been given
as a guide" (25:47).
30. I found God's way. Then I understood: "This is my Path and it is
straight." (6:154)
31. During the night my sister "was overtaken by the divine scourge."
(12:107) she remained wrapped in darkness for a small part of the
night
and from fever and nightmares fell into a state of complete collapse.
32. I saw a lamp with oil in it; a light shot out of it into the
different parts of the house. There even the lamp niche was set on
fire
and the inhabitants were illuminated from the effect of the light of
the sun rising above them.
33. I placed the lamp in the mouth of the Dragon that lived in the
castle of the water wheel; under it was a certain Red Sea; above it
were stars of whom no one knew the places of irradiation except their
Creator and "those who have a lot of experience of the Knowledge."
(3:5)
34. I noticed that both Leo and Taurus had disappeared; Sagittarius
and
Cancer were both [involués] involuted in the folding caused by the
rotation of the Sphere of Spheres. Libra stayed in equilibrium when
the
Star of Yemen (Suhail, Canopus) rose from behind some slender clouds,
composed by what the cobweb of the angles of the elementary World drew
in the world of generation and corruption.
35. There was still a sheep with us; we left it in the desert where it
perished from the trembling of the earth while lightening fell upon
it.
36. Then, when the entire distance had been traveled and the road had
come to an end, while the "water welled out from the furnace"
(al-tanner, " athanor", 11:42 and 23:27) in a conical shape (of the
heart), I saw the celestial bodies; I united myself with them and
heard
their music and their melodies. I was initiated into their recital;
their sounds struck my ears like that of a bell-like sound produced by
a chain drawn over hard rock. My muscles were at the point of tearing,
my joints felt like breaking, so vivid was the pleasure that I
experienced. This did not cease happening in me until the white cloud
went away by dissipating and the membrane was broken.
III
37. I left the caverns and the caves and was finished with the
vestibules: I went straight to the Spring of Life. Then I saw the
Great
Rock at the summit of a mountain that looked like the Sublime
Mountain.
I asked the fishes that were frolicking in the Spring of Life,
enjoying
the quiet and the gentleness of the shade of the Lofty Peak. "What is
that high mountain," I asked, "and what is that Great Rock?"
38. Then one of the fishes "chose a certain current for its way in the
sea." (18:60) It told me: "That is what you so ardently desire; that
mountain is Mount Sinai and that Rock is the oratory of your father".
"But who are these fishes?" I asked. "These are your equals. You are
sons of the same father. They have passed a test similar to yours.
They
are your brothers."
39. When I heard that answer and experienced the truth, I embraced
them. I rejoiced in seeing them like they rejoiced in seeing me.
Thereafter I ascended the mountain. Behold, I saw our father as a
Great
Sage, so great that Heaven and Earth were about to split asunder from
the epiphany of his Light. I stayed amazed, stupefied. I came close to
him and behold, like a leader he greeted me. I bowed to the ground
before him and was left speechless in the Light that radiated from
him.
40. I cried for a moment when I lamented to him about Qayrawân's
prison. He told me: "Have courage! You are saved now! It is still
absolutely necessary that you return to the occidental prison because
the fetters have not yet completely unclothed you". When I heard those
words my reason left me. I wept and cried like one who is at the verge
of dying and I called out to him.
41. He said to me: "It is unavoidable that you return there for the
moment. However, I have two good things to tell you. First, once
returned to your prison, it will be possible for you to return again
to
us here and easily climb up to our paradise, whenever you want to.
Secondly, you will be totally free; you will be joined to us and leave
the Occidental land behind you completely and forever."
42. His words filled me with joy again. He also said: "Know that this
mountain is Mount Sinai ( 23:30, Tûr Saynâ'); but above this mountain
there is another one: The Sinai ( 95:2, Tûr Sînîna), of the One who
is my Father and your Grandfather, to whom I am related just like you
are to me.
43. "We have still other ancestors and our ascendance finally ends at
a
King who is the Supreme Forebear, who Himself has no ancestors and no
father. We are His servants; we owe Him our Light and we borrow our
Fire from His Fire. He possesses a beauty more imposing than any other
beauty, the most sublime majesty and the most subjugating Light. He is
beyond all Beyond. He is the Light of Light, beyond Light and Eternity
for all eternity. He is the Epiphany for all things and "all things
perish except His Face." ( 28:88)
44. Postlude. This recital is about me, because I have lived through a
disaster. From the higher space I fell into the abyss of hell, among
people who are not believers; I am a prisoner in the land of the
Occident. Nevertheless I keep feeling a certain sweetness that is
impossible to describe. I am sobbing, I am imploring, I am gasping
with
regret about this separation. This passing stand-off was one of the
dreams that quickly faded.
45. From the prison of Nature and the impediment of Matter save me, oh
my God!. "And say: Praise be to God, who shall soon show you His Signs
so you shall know them, and your Lord is not unmindful of all that you
do." (27:93) "Say: Glory to God! But most of them do not understand."
(31:25)
Asparagus
<stevebl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1174692321.8...@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 24, 12:25 am, "Asparagus" <k...@spimspam.com> wrote:
>> <bayani.belie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1174641845.0...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > On Mar 23, 5:21 pm, "wjhonson" <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >> How many Bayanis are there in the world?
>>
>> > Irrelevant question to the topic here.
>>
>> > Suppose there is none.
>> > Now is there one Bahai amongst the 6 million Bahais who can defend the
>> > Bahai bogus claims such as those I have discussed here and earlier. We
>> > only need one.
>>
>> we suppose you are too stupid to see that nobody can defend bogus claims
>> people only defend valid claims
> Did I offend your religious feelings again?
difficult for you as you do not know what they are
you think we are baha'i although we have told you we are not your proble is
that unless we conform to your preconceptions you cannot understand us and
cannot deal with us that is your problem but onr that is seen by all except
you
> This is an example of a Bahai answer (despite his denial). His
> intelligence does not allow him to understand what is said; he has no
> clue; he is unable to get someone else to answer it; he is rude and
> abusive and he sheds crocodile tears when his abuse is returned. His
> argument is as much valued as Dead Weed.
poor old deadweed as he is not around anymore it is easy to insult him
we understand what you said your problem is that because you think baha'i
claims are bogus they must be bogus and that nobody can defend them but
baha's belive their claims to be true and therefore defensible i.e that they
are not bogus. you therefore emerge as a pompous pedant and bigot who
tolerates nobody who disagrees with him indeed you canot argue because you
lack respect for views other than your own
as for the insults we can only say that you are very thin skinned and not at
all good at returning them that plus the fact that you actually are not very
good at returning insults means you are a sad individual who needs to waken
up to the need to respect others.
>> as you have contempt upfront for any who disagree with you nobody is
>> going
>> to discuss anything with you
>
> The only ones who have my contempt are those ones like you who show
> contempt. Do not be rude and abusive. Behave in a civilised manner.
> Your lousy excuse is just that: laughable!
those who do not agree with you by your definition are the ones who show you
contempt
> Now, go to your masters and get me some answer. Remember! If you come
> back with abuse, you will have it returned in multitude! And then you
> will have to cry more!
do not flatter yourself we laugh at your weak efforts to match us whether in
insult or in argument
you need lessons in abuse how to take it and how to give it for you are
quite pathetic at both
Asparagus
<stevebl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1174691479.0...@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> Bayanis mainly live in Iran. They do not have any administratve
> organisation. They do not need to register themselves as such to be a
> Bayani. They mainly register themselves in privacy with God.
> As such there is no figure available. However, the figure is something
> between 2000 and 5000.
if there is no figure available then there is no figure available and your
figures are therefore invalid
>> The Baha'i apparatus claims that the number of Bayanis is vanishingly
>> tiny. It would be interesting to know what the Bayanis themselves
>> think as well.
>
> Well, even if it was 5000, it would be "tiny" compared to the
> 6,000,000 they claim to be Bahais.
> But what is sand compared to diamond?
very useful sand is neede to make cement to make houses and buildings and
useful things like that
diamonds are for adornment of for cutting they are either worthless in real
terms or destructive
by your analagy banyanios are less than useless
>I am not saying Bahais are worth
> the sand grains, I am talking about what is behind Bahaism and Bayani
> religion. I am talking about truth and untruth.
so you are talking shite as usual
Asparagus
> On Mar 24, 1:03 pm, "wjhonson" <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Do Bayanis have missionaries?
>
> Yes. We are appointed directly by the Primal Point, the Letters of the
> Living and Subh-i-Azal.
self appointed therefore as all of these people are dead
>
>>And do Bayanis have temples, churches,
>> mosques, meeting halls?
>
> Yes. We have the Temple (haykal) of Nature and the Temple of the Human
> Being (insan) as our places of worship.
no bricks and mortar therefore so if two of you get together on a wet day
you both get wet
bayani....@gmail.com
It does make sense: Let me give you two major words in the title of
tablet. The first one is ‘Maktab Khaneh’. It literally means the place
for learning to write. This word is no longer used in the modern
Persian. At the time it was used it referred to what would be ‘Primary
School’ as we understand it. It is unambiguous and the only thing that
can be understood from it is just that. The second word that
complements it is the verb ‘Munavar’. This word means ‘illuminate’. In
order to understand the meaning of it one must know the Iranian
culture. When someone steps into a house, he is said to have
‘illuminated’ the house by his presence.
In the context of this tablet it is telling us that the school would
be illuminated if the tablet was mounted on its walls or somewhere in
the school for everyone to see.
This is a provision for Bayanis to undertake. What would the purpose
of such provision if the Promised one of Bayan had well passed the
stage where he would attend the primary school. A provision which
could have never been eventuated is a dead letter.
Now, you don’t ‘illuminate’ a ‘spiritual’ or ‘divine’ school with a
tablet as such. One would have thought such ‘school’ would be
‘radiant’ enough to be illuminated with one tablet.
>
> > In Aqdas, Mirza Husayn-Ali refers to the epistle and responds angrily
> > to it by saying:
> > "O People of Al-Bayan, we entered the school of God while you were
> > reclining, and we carefully observed the tablet while you were asleep,
> > By God, the true one, we read it before its descent, but you were
> > careless."
>
> > The only thing we get out of this response is that he is offended by
> > it.
>
> I don't get that from it at all. He seems to be claiming innate
> knowledge of the Bab's writings. Doesn't sound particularly
> angry to me.
Perhaps, not to your standard. He is taking a swipe at the Bayanis
who reminded him about the tablet and its implications. By using the
words “you were reclining” and “you were asleep” he is clearly in a
defensive mode. The equivalent of it is used in everyday conversation
by people who respond in that manner to defend themselves.
What you should know is that there is no school for the divine
knowledge. It is direct. In other words Bayanis believe God speaks
through its manifestation and therefore “to have entered a school”
simply does not arise. “To have entered at a time when people of Bayan
were “fast sleeping” or “reclining” is just meaningless.
>
> "we read it before its descent" = "I knew what was written
> in it before it was written".
These are not said here. Mirza Husayn-Ali uttered these when he was
told he had studied the writings of Bayan. Quote your reference.
>
> > We know that Mirza Husayn-Ali learned to read and write in his child-
> > hood just like any other child. Moreover we (Bayanis) expect that the
> > parents of HWGSMM would not recognise their child to have been blessed
> > with such station and hence he would be put into a primary school like
> > every other child as the Primal Point was.
>
> I don't believe the Bab was referring to a real, actual and physical
> primary school.
That is purely an expression of your personal belief which is not of
interest here. The reasons are what I am interested in. If I wanted to
do that, I wouldn’t have provided references and describe in detail
why. I would have just sufficed to say “Mirza Husayn-Ali is lying
about the 19 years”.
>
> > Therefore Mirza Husayn-Ali’s response does help his case here at all.
> > There is of course the issue of whether he did study Bayanic writings
> > or not which is a different subject.
>
> Of course he did! He was a Babi.
>
Ah! Tell it to your Bahai friends. Mirza Husayn-Ali denies he ever
studied the writings of the Primal Point.
>
>
>
>
> > Abbas also comes to the help of his father and claims the school is
> > meant to be a spiritual one not a physical one. He doesn’t however
> > explain where People of Bayan would find this school to illuminate its
> > walls with this tablet!
>
> > And that was just the title.
>
> > Bahais have taken out the 19 years out of its context here and produce
> > it as a proof that WHGSMM would have to wait for no more than 19
> > years.
>
> > Firstly, the middle part of the tablet says: “if …… you were to
> > dismiss all the people of the Bayan with a gesture of hand as you suck
> > milk at the breast of your mother will be praiseworthy for your
> > gesture.”
> > This suggests that HWGSMM would spend the period of his infancy inside
> > of the Bayanic era.
>
> No it doesn't. That's simply your self-serving interpretation.
Read what I said about 'Maktab Khaneh', 'Illumination' and its
implication.
Tell me why it doesn't. You have my reasons.
>
> What it appears to mean to me is the Bab's oft-expressed
> notion that the WHOLE of his dispensation could be
> considered a gift to that of "Him Whom God will etc. Etc."
Yes it is. But that is not the issue. The issue is the timing of the
appearance of HWGSMM.
>
> "If you were to dismiss all the people with a wave of
> your infant hand"
>
> "If you were to regard the entirety of my life's work as
> but a teardrop in the expanse of the ocean of your
> revelation"
>
> "May my life be his sacrfice".
Read above and quote your reference!
>
> > We know that at the time this tablet was revealed
> > Mirza Husayn-Ali had well passed the stage of an infant and was a
> > grown up man. And more importantly Mirza Husayn-Ali could not have
> > dismissed People of Bayan “whilst he was sucking milk from the breast
> > of her mother” because there was no such thing as a Bayani when this
> > was happening.
>
> Husayn Ali was, indeed, two years *older* than the Bab.
very good. The tablet could not have been for him.
>
> But I don't think this passage is a gross allusion to the actual
> physical age of "Him Whom etc etc" at all. Why do you think so?
>
You need to read what I said again. I am not talking about the age of
HWGSMM. What I said was that the provision to mount a tablet at
primary school would be a dead letter if Mirza Husayn-Ali’s claim who
was 50 years old at the time of he made his claim very public were to
be true. The implication of this provision on the appearance of
HWGSMM.
> > Now, let’s get to the latter part of the passage which is of interest
> > to Bahais: “But undoubtedly you will have patience for nineteen years
> > to reward those who embrace the Bayani fruit as a favour your part”.
>
> > You can’t fully understand this bit unless you read it as part of the
> > whole passage. The bit that is missing here and fully dissolves the
> > Bahai claim, comes at the beginning of the passage: “If in the next
> > resurrection”.
>
> That means "next manifestation" undoubtedly - but lets see what
> you make of it:
No! You are changing my words again. I wrote “next resurrection” not
“next manifestation”. These two are two different things. Let me
transpose what would be “the next resurrection” if Mirza Husayn-Ali’s
claim were to be true:
Let’s imagine Mirza Husayn-Ali made his claim 1863 (which is made up,
he made that in 1866 in Edirne). Based on the passages from Bayan
which I quoted, 1866 would be “the start of the resurrection of
Bayan”. The resurrection of Bayan would end when Mirza Husayn-Ali
died. According to the tablet from 1863, Mirza Husayn-Ali would have
had to wait for 19 years before he gets to “dismiss the People of
Bayan”. In other words, 1863 to 1882 would be spent in inviting the
people of Bayan. Any time after 1882, he would say the curtain is
closed on People of Bayan and any one who is still staying in Bayan
would be in ‘Nar’ (Hell-Fire). It is like announcing by the UK
government that Pound is not going to be valid any more and any one
who has this currency has one month to change it over, after that the
notes are worth-less.
In my few materials I posted on the Bayanic calendar, I said that
according to the book of ‘5 Modes’, the first Bayani year was 1850.
http://www.bayanic.com/cal/bay.html
>
> Just as a point of information, therefore - which year is actually
> counted as year one by Bayanis? Do you consider yourselves
> 5 years behind the year as counted by Baha'is?
The Bahai calendar begins from 21st of March 1844. Two months before
the proclamation of the Primal Point in May 1844.
>
>
>
>
>
> > Having understood what resurrection means, when it begins, when it
> > ends and how it related to the next resurrection, we now go back to
> > the passage in question:
>
> > “If in the next resurrection, you were to dismiss all the people of
> > the Bayan with a gesture of hand as you suck milk at the breast of
> > your mother will be praiseworthy for your gesture. But undoubtedly you
> > will have patience for nineteen years to reward those who embrace the
> > Bayani fruit as a favour your part.”
>
> > It does not say “if from the resurrection of Islam …”. It says “If in
> > the next resurrection …”.
> > What this passage means is that after the appearance of HWGSMM, he
> > would wait for 19 years (as opposed to the 5 years which the Primal
> > Point waited) before he dismisses anyone who still remained in the
> > religion of Bayan despite what will be 19 years of preparing of people
> > of Bayan to recognise HWGSMM.
>
> Well, Baha'is of course consider 1844 + 19 = 1863, which is
> when Baha'u'llah was declaring himself to be "Him Whom etc. etc."
> to his close company at the garden of Ridvan.
Well, Baha'is of course consider 1844 + 19 = 1863, which is
when Baha'u'llah was declaring himself to be "Him Whom etc. etc."
to his close company at the garden of Ridvan.
See above. The 1863 “proclamation” was produced years later in Acre.
No one including Abbas Effendi had anything to say about that event.
Nabil doesn’t remember much about what Mirza Husayn-Ali said on that
day. Mirza Husayn-Ali does not say who he made this “private claim”
to. The very public claim was in 1866.
http://www.bayanic.com/notes/rise-II/riseII02.html
>
> I don't see anything conclusive in your arguments to show that
> the Baha'is are wrong to think that.
Only if you had noticed one thing that is “if in the next
resurrection” and read what resurrection meant according to Bayan in
fairness then you would have seen the conclusive argument.
>
> Paul- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
bayani....@gmail.com
What Bayanis would do would be to provide facts concerning the
religion of Bayan, reproduce writings and spread them.
That is what I hope I am doing. Do you consider me a missionary?
The Primal Point asked His Letters of the Living to spread his word.
Were they missionary?
If missionary means: "move to a foreign land, help them in return for
their conversion" then no, there is no missionary in Bayan.
But if it means to spread the word then yes that is what we do, at our
own will and decision. There is no central body to tell us to go to X
and do that in there.
bayani....@gmail.com
Bayan.
> I wish you could be
> more clear. The way you've expressed it above it very confusing. Do
> the Bayani actively recruit people to join the faith?
> That to me is
> what a missionary does, not just a person who believes, but a person
> who recruits.
Excellent. If that is your understanding then there is no missionary
in Bayan.
>
bayani....@gmail.com
> <steveblombe...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1174692321.8...@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 24, 12:25 am, "Asparagus" <k...@spimspam.com> wrote:
> >> <bayani.belie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >>news:1174641845.0...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > On Mar 23, 5:21 pm, "wjhonson" <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> >> How many Bayanis are there in the world?
>
> >> > Irrelevant question to the topic here.
>
> >> > Suppose there is none.
> >> > Now is there one Bahai amongst the 6 million Bahais who can defend the
> >> > Bahai bogus claims such as those I have discussed here and earlier. We
> >> > only need one.
>
> >> we suppose you are too stupid to see that nobody can defend bogus claims
> >> people only defend valid claims
> > Did I offend your religious feelings again?
>
> difficult for you as you do not know what they are
>
> you think we are baha'i although we have told you we are not your proble is
> that unless we conform to your preconceptions you cannot understand us and
> cannot deal with us that is your problem but onr that is seen by all except
> you
Who you are or what you are is manifest in what you have so far said.
>
> > This is an example of a Bahai answer (despite his denial). His
> > intelligence does not allow him to understand what is said; he has no
> > clue; he is unable to get someone else to answer it; he is rude and
> > abusive and he sheds crocodile tears when his abuse is returned. His
> > argument is as much valued as Dead Weed.
>
> poor old deadweed as he is not around anymore it is easy to insult him
I thought I clarified that. This title is YOURS alone. YOU are meant
by it. At least when I say it.
>
> we understand what you said your problem is that because you think baha'i
> claims are bogus they must be bogus and that nobody can defend them
Einstein! What I have written here has been available to Bahais who do
want to 'do investigation of truth' for over a century. There has not
been a response. You or others might have seen it just now.
> but
> baha's belive their claims to be true and therefore defensible i.e that they
> are not bogus.
I said to Hammond and say it to you. My personal belief is that the 19
years thing by Bahais is crap. But I just didn't say that, I produced
evidence and argument. Let them do that and you if you have anything
to say.
> you therefore emerge as a pompous pedant and bigot who
> tolerates nobody who disagrees with him indeed you canot argue because you
> lack respect for views other than your own
You are a fool!
Your thinking that someone who brings evidence and argument to reject
a claim means they are 'bigots'.
Where have you been? You are clearly hurt. And this is all you can do.
Turn it into hate, race garbage. Shut up if you don't have anything to
say.
>
> as for the insults we can only say that you are very thin skinned and not at
> all good at returning them that plus the fact that you actually are not very
> good at returning insults means you are a sad individual who needs to waken
> up to the need to respect others.
I rfresh your non existing memory. When you first intruded into the
threads with irrelevant and smar ass comments which had nothing to do
with the threads, you were ignored.
You then got bolder and bolder and became abusive. That was when I
made you to taste a spoon of your own food.
I have said that many times. Behave civilized and only then you can
expect the same thing.
>
> >> as you have contempt upfront for any who disagree with you nobody is
> >> going
> >> to discuss anything with you
Garbage!
I have discussed many things with many people and I never abused any
one as long as they did not do that first. You are making up, you
liar.
>
> > The only ones who have my contempt are those ones like you who show
> > contempt. Do not be rude and abusive. Behave in a civilised manner.
> > Your lousy excuse is just that: laughable!
>
> those who do not agree with you by your definition are the ones who show you
> contempt
Garbage! I do not abuse people who disagree with me. I only return it
to you when you do that. As for you, you never had anything to say any
way, what are you complaining about?
>
> > Now, go to your masters and get me some answer. Remember! If you come
> > back with abuse, you will have it returned in multitude! And then you
> > will have to cry more!
>
> do not flatter yourself we laugh at your weak efforts to match us whether in
> insult or in argument
There is no flattering here. I have produced argument and reasons. I
am telling you to get help because you clearly are blank.
>
> you need lessons in abuse how to take it and how to give it for you are
> quite pathetic at both
Look who is talking.
My lesson to you is this: Do not be abusive so that it is not returned
to you.
bayani....@gmail.com
> <steveblombe...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1174691479.0...@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Bayanis mainly live in Iran. They do not have any administratve
> > organisation. They do not need to register themselves as such to be a
> > Bayani. They mainly register themselves in privacy with God.
> > As such there is no figure available. However, the figure is something
> > between 2000 and 5000.
You must have never heard of estimation. Where have you been? in a
cave?
>
> if there is no figure available then there is no figure available and your
> figures are therefore invalid
>
> >> The Baha'i apparatus claims that the number of Bayanis is vanishingly
> >> tiny. It would be interesting to know what the Bayanis themselves
> >> think as well.
>
> > Well, even if it was 5000, it would be "tiny" compared to the
> > 6,000,000 they claim to be Bahais.
> > But what is sand compared to diamond?
>
> very useful sand is neede to make cement to make houses and buildings and
If you had thought harder you would have noticed that the example was
in reference to numbers. Now, if you are prepared to swap sand with
diamond then that is what you are.
> useful things like that
>
> diamonds are for adornment of for cutting they are either worthless in real
> terms or destructive
>
> by your analagy banyanios are less than useless
See above.
>
> >I am not saying Bahais are worth
> > the sand grains, I am talking about what is behind Bahaism and Bayani
> > religion. I am talking about truth and untruth.
>
> so you are talking shite as usual
And this is what I am talking about.
When you run out you start being abusive. Shit is what you are made
of.
stevebl...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
"Therefore Mirza Husayn-Ali’s response does not help his case here at
all.
There is of course the issue of whether he did study Bayanic writings
or not which is a different subject."
Paul Hammond agrees Mirza Husayn-Ali lied when he said he had not
studied Bayan:
" Of course he did! He was a Babi."
Continuing on what I said earlier:
In his Epistle to the Son of the Wolf the last book written by Mirza
Husayn-Ali before his death in 1892 and subsequent to the Ishraqat
Mirza Husayn-Ali states that:
“God testifieth and beareth Me witness that this Wronged One hath not
perused the Bayán, nor been acquainted with its contents. This much,
however, is known and is clear and indubitable that He hath ordained
the Book of the Bayán to be the foundation of His works.”
Asparagus
<bayani....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1174879218.8...@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> so you are talking shite as usual
> And this is what I am talking about.
all the time and everybody with sense sees that
Asparagus
On Mar 26, 3:12 am, "wjhonson" <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> Wahid, do Bayanis have missionaries who are alive today?
exclude the drivel and the answer is no.
they have no missionaries they only have abraxasshole/stephanie who are
worthless and only good at slobbering.
The mind who only thinks in terms of numbers and missionaries, is an
exotericist at core a materialist totally entrapped and imprisoned
within the illusion of solidification, the world of quantity (matter)
i.e. the limit of the privation which stands as an isthmus between the
celestial worlds and hell (i.e. qlippoth). The Bayanis are initiates
and adepts and as such are pure esotericists. We occupy a completely
different plane of Reality, which is quantum levels higher than the
bahaim, and so missionaries and numbers mean nothing.
> I know that Subh could have appointed missionaries, but they would all
> be dead.
That which truly Lives never dies whereas that which is truly dead
never Lives, so let the dead (the bahaim) bury the dead (their
founders). If you truly wish to understand what this means, ponder and
meditate on the following Tale of the Occidental Exile by Suhrawardi
below.
W
I
1. Beginning of the Recital. Once upon a time, my brother 'Asim and I
undertook a journey to the land of the Occident, being from the land
across the river, to hunt certain shore birds from the Green Sea.
2. Suddenly we came upon "the city whose inhabitants are oppressors"
(4:77), I mean the city of Qayrawān.
3. The inhabitants noticed our sudden arrival and gathered that we
were
the children of a Shaykh known as al-Hādi ibn al-Khayr (the Guide son
being addressed by al-Hādi your father. In the Name of God the
II
of Gōg and Māgōg (18:93 ff.) on the left side of mount al-Jūdī
(11:46).
22. However, there were artisans with me who worked for me and I had
at
my disposition the source of molten copper. I told the artisans: "Blow
on the iron until it becomes like fire" (that I may throw the molten
copper on it, 18:95). Next I erected a barricade so that I was
separated from Gōg and Māgōg (18:94).
23. Then I truly realized that "the promise of your Lord is true"
(18:98).
24. During the journey I saw the pits of 'Ad and Thamūd; I crossed the
40. I cried for a moment when I lamented to him about Qayrawān's
prison. He told me: "Have courage! You are saved now! It is still
absolutely necessary that you return to the occidental prison because
the fetters have not yet completely unclothed you". When I heard those
words my reason left me. I wept and cried like one who is at the verge
of dying and I called out to him.
41. He said to me: "It is unavoidable that you return there for the
moment. However, I have two good things to tell you. First, once
returned to your prison, it will be possible for you to return again
to
us here and easily climb up to our paradise, whenever you want to.
Secondly, you will be totally free; you will be joined to us and leave
the Occidental land behind you completely and forever."
42. His words filled me with joy again. He also said: "Know that this
mountain is Mount Sinai ( 23:30, Tūr Saynā'); but above this mountain
there is another one: The Sinai ( 95:2, Tūr Sīnīna), of the One who
bayani....@gmail.com
> <bayani.belie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
You could be something (possibly) only if you actually spoke through
your mouth and not your arse.
bayani....@gmail.com
> "Wahid Azal" <wahidaza...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1174859178....@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 26, 3:12 am, "wjhonson" <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Wahid, do Bayanis have missionaries who are alive today?
>
> exclude the drivel and the answer is no.
> they have no missionaries they only have abraxasshole/stephanie who are
> worthless and only good at slobbering.
Wipe your tears dickhead. I know it hurts, get used to it. It will no
longer hurt as much once after while.
Only blanks can't see you are blank.
>
> The mind who only thinks in terms of numbers and missionaries, is an
> exotericist at core a materialist totally entrapped and imprisoned
> within the illusion of solidification, the world of quantity (matter)
> i.e. the limit of the privation which stands as an isthmus between the
> celestial worlds and hell (i.e. qlippoth). The Bayanis are initiates
> and adepts and as such are pure esotericists. We occupy a completely
> different plane of Reality, which is quantum levels higher than the
> bahaim, and so missionaries and numbers mean nothing.
>
> > I know that Subh could have appointed missionaries, but they would all
> > be dead.
>
> That which truly Lives never dies whereas that which is truly dead
> never Lives, so let the dead (the bahaim) bury the dead (their
> founders). If you truly wish to understand what this means, ponder and
> meditate on the following Tale of the Occidental Exile by Suhrawardi
> below.
>
> W
>
> I
>
> 1. Beginning of the Recital. Once upon a time, my brother 'Asim and I
> undertook a journey to the land of the Occident, being from the land
> across the river, to hunt certain shore birds from the Green Sea.
> 2. Suddenly we came upon "the city whose inhabitants are oppressors"
> (4:77), I mean the city of Qayrawân.
> 3. The inhabitants noticed our sudden arrival and gathered that we
> were
> the children of a Shaykh known as al-Hâdi ibn al-Khayr (the Guide son
> being addressed by al-Hâdi your father. In the Name of God the
> of Gôg and Mâgôg (18:93 ff.) on the left side of mount al-Jûdî
> (11:46).
> 22. However, there were artisans with me who worked for me and I had
> at
> my disposition the source of molten copper. I told the artisans: "Blow
> on the iron until it becomes like fire" (that I may throw the molten
> copper on it, 18:95). Next I erected a barricade so that I was
> separated from Gôg and Mâgôg (18:94).
> 23. Then I truly realized that "the promise of your Lord is true"
> (18:98).
> 24. During the journey I saw the pits of 'Ad and Thamûd; I crossed the
> them. I ...
>
> read more »
Asparagus
<bayani....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1174961450.8...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Wipe your tears dickhead. I know it hurts, get used to it.
oh indeed we hurt from laughing at your stupidity
> It will no
> longer hurt as much once after while.
are you going to stop being stupid
> Only blanks can't see you are blank.
can you repeat that in english by any chance
Asparagus
<bayani....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1174961205.7...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
on the evidence of your words here you cannot tell the difference between
the two orifices
bayani....@gmail.com
> <bayani.belie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1174961450.8...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Wipe your tears dickhead. I know it hurts, get used to it.
>
> oh indeed we hurt from laughing at your stupidity
>
> > It will no
> > longer hurt as much once after while.
>
> are you going to stop being stupid
>
> > Only blanks can't see you are blank.
>
> can you repeat that in english by any chance
Have you heard of a blank page?
Similar words: Void, Empty
bayani....@gmail.com
> <bayani.belie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1174961205.7...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Mar 26, 11:07 pm, "Asparagus" <k...@spimspam.com> wrote:
> >> <bayani.belie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >>news:1174879218.8...@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> >> so you are talking shite as usual
> >> > And this is what I am talking about.
>
> >> all the time and everybody with sense sees that
>
> > You could be something (possibly) only if you actually spoke through
> > your mouth and not your arse.
>
> on the evidence of your words here you cannot tell the difference between
> the two orifices
My Words? Ha ha ha ha ha ha Ha ha ha ha ha ha!
You dumb can't begin to comprehend my words, let alone judge them!
See your masters for help.
By the way, i know the difference enough to see that you are using the
wrong device! Your input and output devices have been swapped around!
Asparagus
<bayani....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1175134014.1...@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 28, 10:43 pm, "Asparagus" <k...@spimspam.com> wrote:
>> <bayani.belie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1174961450.8...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > Wipe your tears dickhead. I know it hurts, get used to it.
>>
>> oh indeed we hurt from laughing at your stupidity
>>
>> > It will no
>> > longer hurt as much once after while.
>>
>> are you going to stop being stupid
> It did hurt! Good!
all that laughing at you oes hurt but please do not stop being stupid on our
account
>>
>> > Only blanks can't see you are blank.
>>
>> can you repeat that in english by any chance
> Are you asking for an English lesson, Scoty!
> Have you heard of a blank page?
> Similar words: Void, Empty
like your brain
Asparagus
<bayani....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1175134287....@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> > You could be something (possibly) only if you actually spoke through
>> > your mouth and not your arse.
>>
>> on the evidence of your words here you cannot tell the difference between
>> the two orifices
>
> My Words? Ha ha ha ha ha ha Ha ha ha ha ha ha!
strange we laugh at your words as well now is that funny or not
> You dumb can't begin to comprehend my words, let alone judge them!
you cannot comprehend your words either so we are not alone
> See your masters for help.
we would oif we had any but we have none
> By the way, i know the difference enough to see that you are using the
> wrong device! Your input and output devices have been swapped around!
so if we swap them back will you disappear
>
Wahid Azal
Don't feed the demon-troll. No one takes this idiot seriously here.
W
Asparagus
> Dear Steve,
>
> Don't feed the demon-troll. No one takes this idiot seriously here.
is old asparagus annoying you still what a desperate tragedy it is that you
have not been able to overcome our superior talents and are left with only
this pathetic response stephanie will not listen for she has the mental
ability of a soused herring trying to copulate with a pickled porcupine the
poor fool thinks she is funny and can overcome asparagus her responses are
nearly as incompetent as yours
it is true that few take us seriously but nearly all enjoy the way we have
waxed your tail real good and reduced you to a glob of slobbering
incoherence
it just shows how good we are that you are reduced to backtracking on your
death to bahaism rant by smooching up to the non haifan sections just to try
to get a friend nobody likes you and nobody listens to you for you are
complete moron nobody trusts you nobody would even give you the skin of a
fart
abraxasshole unable to respond to asparagus
abraxasshole perplexed irritated annoyed and driven to distraction by
asparagus
abraxasshole cannot defeat asparagus
abraxasshole exposed by asparagus for worthless piece of shit that he is
ps any sign of proof yet that mr reeper actually got telephone call from
you and is in land of living we wonder why he does not come here to support
you what with you being all buddy buddy with him assuming that he is still
upright of course which is not safe to do how is your alter ego john mclead
this day
stevebl...@yahoo.com
> <bayani.belie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1175134014.1...@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Mar 28, 10:43 pm, "Asparagus" <k...@spimspam.com> wrote:
> >> <bayani.belie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >>news:1174961450.8...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > Wipe your tears dickhead. I know it hurts, get used to it.
>
> >> oh indeed we hurt from laughing at your stupidity
>
> >> > It will no
> >> > longer hurt as much once after while.
>
> >> are you going to stop being stupid
> > It did hurt! Good!
>
> all that laughing at you oes hurt but please do not stop being stupid on our
> account
You say you are not a Bahai, and most obviously you are completely and
utterly ignorant of the Bayani and Bahai history and teaching; so tell
this forum what a shmuck like you is doing here?
All you have managed to do is to be drowned in my compliments which I
must admit I have never expressed so transparently to you fool.
Like a wild donkey at every post be me or Nima you just fling yourself
into the thread no matter what no matter what. Whether it is a topic
that goes over your head or just about anything that comes from us. So
in effect you are just a hate monger lunatic who can't see his masters
unhappy about their "faith" being exposed as a fake.
You intruded first when I exposed your friend Claudia who like your
masters also claimed to be 'special'. Your excuse was that I was
beating up a defenseless woman! Am I doing the same thing here? You
seem to have a liking for sharlatans claiming to be 'divine'!
>
>
>
> >> > Only blanks can't see you are blank.
>
> >> can you repeat that in english by any chance
> > Are you asking for an English lesson, Scoty!
> > Have you heard of a blank page?
> > Similar words: Void, Empty
>
> like your brain
Now, that is not good manner dickhead, you just learned a new word and
use it against your teacher! You unappreciative garbage container.
stevebl...@yahoo.com
> <bayani.belie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1175134287....@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > You could be something (possibly) only if you actually spoke through
> >> > your mouth and not your arse.
>
> >> on the evidence of your words here you cannot tell the difference between
> >> the two orifices
>
> > My Words? Ha ha ha ha ha ha Ha ha ha ha ha ha!
>
> strange we laugh at your words as well now is that funny or not
>
> > You dumb can't begin to comprehend my words, let alone judge them!
>
> you cannot comprehend your words either so we are not alone
>
> > See your masters for help.
>
> we would oif we had any but we have none
>
> > By the way, i know the difference enough to see that you are using the
> > wrong device! Your input and output devices have been swapped around!
>
> so if we swap them back will you disappear
what you have missed and will beg me to teach you more.
stevebl...@yahoo.com
You are right, I should be ignoring this idiot, but I hate to make
this confession, sometimes I enjoy doing it to him.
stevebl...@yahoo.com
> "Wahid Azal" <wahidaza...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1175147847.4...@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Dear Steve,
>
> > Don't feed the demon-troll. No one takes this idiot seriously here.
>
> is old asparagus
> annoying you still what a desperate tragedy it is that you
> have not been able to overcome our superior talents
talent in what? Containing and releasing garbage?
> and are left with only
> this pathetic response
response to what? Are you implying you said something worthy of
responding. You are here to abuse and be abused, that is it.
> stephanie will not listen for she has the mental
> ability of a soused herring trying to copulate with a pickled porcupine the
> poor fool thinks she is funny and can overcome asparagus her responses are
> nearly as incompetent as yours
I have been over you before you knew it. And that is not funny,
serious.
Again, response to what? to your garbage? The case between you and
anybody else is a case of who can come up with a unique abusive word
that can make you run around and screem.
>
> it is true that few take us seriously but nearly all enjoy the way we have
> waxed your tail real good and reduced you to a glob of slobbering
> incoherence
You did what? You prick are incapable wiping your bottom let alone
starting to make any sense. Do not flatter yourselves! yous may
believe yourselves!
>
> it just shows how good we are
in what? making a fool out of yourself.
> that you are reduced to backtracking on your
> death to bahaism
So, what have you had to say, you garbage container!
> rant by smooching up to the non haifan sections just to try
> to get a friend nobody likes you
Hey dickhead! you think Nima cares about public relation! Your masters
suck up to any mentally retarded dictator if the hep them collect
revenue to make a few more architectural master pieces for Abbas and
Husayn-Ali, so that they can give free tour and collect converts.
> and nobody listens to you for you are
But everybody listens to you! You prick!
> complete moron nobody trusts you nobody
And everyone trusts you idiot?
> would even give you the skin of a
> fart
That perfectly describes your losy existence.
>
> abraxasshole unable to respond to asparagus
Get stuffed! You are already with garbage! I try again, get f..ed.
>
> abraxasshole perplexed irritated annoyed and driven to distraction by
> asparagus
What did you do for that to happen? Such as your performace in this
thread? You are complete disaster.
>
> abraxasshole cannot defeat asparagus
There never was such thing. It was Dead Weed and it NEVER had anything
to fahrt about.
>
> abraxasshole exposed by asparagus for worthless piece of shit that he is
You idiot are the embodyment of pure shit who consumes shit and
releases hit.
>
> ps any sign of proof yet that mr reeper actually got telephone call from
Ah! Get lost, you monkey!
You are dead weed so why don't you contact him yoursef. Who gives a
shit.
> you and is in land of living we wonder why he does not come here to support
> you what with you being all buddy buddy with him assuming that he is still
> upright of course which is not safe to do how is your alter ego john mclead
> this day
None of your business. He is not obliged to answer a prick like you
donkey. Get lost.
Asparagus
<stevebl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1175160460.0...@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> You say you are not a Bahai, and most obviously you are completely and
> utterly ignorant of the Bayani and Bahai history and teaching; so tell
> this forum what a shmuck like you is doing here?
we choose to hide our light under a bushel
it is not safe for you to make assumption like this
> All you have managed to do is to be drowned in my compliments which I
> must admit I have never expressed so transparently to you fool.
that is complete understatement your comments are the product of an opaque
bigot
> Like a wild donkey at every post be me or Nima you just fling yourself
> into the thread no matter what no matter what. Whether it is a topic
> that goes over your head or just about anything that comes from us. So
> in effect you are just a hate monger lunatic who can't see his masters
> unhappy about their "faith" being exposed as a fake.
we regard both your faiths as hoaxes and those who preach them as deluded
fools the louder they preach the greater their foolishness
> You intruded first when I exposed your friend Claudia who like your
> masters also claimed to be 'special'. Your excuse was that I was
> beating up a defenseless woman! Am I doing the same thing here? You
> seem to have a liking for sharlatans claiming to be 'divine'!
not at all we despise abraxasshole and he claims to be divine in origin
>> > Have you heard of a blank page?
>> > Similar words: Void, Empty
>>
>> like your brain
> Now, that is not good manner dickhead, you just learned a new word and
> use it against your teacher!
she is a very poor incompetent teacher
> You unappreciative garbage container.
try trash can for a change
now asaparagus has become your teacher but we are good where you are bad
Asparagus
<stevebl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1175161963....@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 29, 6:42 pm, "Asparagus" <k...@spimspam.com> wrote:
>> "Wahid Azal" <wahidaza...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1175147847.4...@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > Dear Steve,
>>
>> > Don't feed the demon-troll. No one takes this idiot seriously here.
>>
>> is old asparagus
> No its is Dead Weed
we see you are already confused
>
>> annoying you still what a desperate tragedy it is that you
>> have not been able to overcome our superior talents
> talent in what? Containing and releasing garbage?
>
>> and are left with only
>> this pathetic response
> response to what? Are you implying you said something worthy of
> responding. You are here to abuse and be abused, that is it.
do send somebody who can abuse us now that would be good fun
>> stephanie will not listen for she has the mental
>> ability of a soused herring trying to copulate with a pickled porcupine
>> the
>> poor fool thinks she is funny and can overcome asparagus her responses
>> are
>> nearly as incompetent as yours
> I have been over you before you knew it. And that is not funny,
> serious.
don't make us laugh again
> Again, response to what? to your garbage? The case between you and
> anybody else is a case of who can come up with a unique abusive word
> that can make you run around and screem.
so far you have not done it
>> it is true that few take us seriously but nearly all enjoy the way we
>> have
>> waxed your tail real good and reduced you to a glob of slobbering
>> incoherence
> You did what? You prick are incapable wiping your bottom let alone
> starting to make any sense. Do not flatter yourselves! yous may
> believe yourselves!
if we cannot believe ourselves who can we believe certainly not you
stephanie nor your alter ego abraxasshole
>> it just shows how good we are
> in what? making a fool out of yourself.
>
>> that you are reduced to backtracking on your
>> death to bahaism
> So, what have you had to say, you garbage container!
do you want us to repeat it for your benefit
>
>> rant by smooching up to the non haifan sections just to try
>> to get a friend nobody likes you
> Hey dickhead! you think Nima cares about public relation!
not at all that is probably why nobody believes him he despises them and
they do not give a shit about him and do not believe him either makes us
wonder why he bothers his arse coming here unless like you he likes to give
us a good laugh
>Your masters
> suck up to any mentally retarded dictator if the hep them collect
> revenue to make a few more architectural master pieces for Abbas and
> Husayn-Ali, so that they can give free tour and collect converts.
that is their problem and not ours we have not been on any of the free tours
and certainly have never paid hard cash to them or got any either
>> and nobody listens to you for you are
> But everybody listens to you! You prick!
everybody enjoys watching us putting you in your place we have hundreds of
emails proving that
>> complete moron nobody trusts you nobody
> And everyone trusts you idiot?
does it matter we are selling no religion here or anywhere else
>> would even give you the skin of a
>> fart
> That perfectly describes your losy existence.
think of something original
>> abraxasshole unable to respond to asparagus
> Get stuffed! You are already with garbage! I try again, get f..ed.
tried it doesn't work
>> abraxasshole perplexed irritated annoyed and driven to distraction by
>> asparagus
> What did you do for that to happen? Such as your performace in this
> thread? You are complete disaster.
for abraxasshole and stephanie
>> abraxasshole cannot defeat asparagus
> There never was such thing. It was Dead Weed and it NEVER had anything
> to fahrt about.
what are you drivelling about here we are asparagus deadweed was somebody
else no longer here as he is defunct
>> abraxasshole exposed by asparagus for worthless piece of shit that he is
> You idiot are the embodyment of pure shit who consumes shit and
> releases hit.
by this stage it is perfectly obvious that we have really gotten right up
your tits your incoherence has reached mammoth proportions
>> ps any sign of proof yet that mr reeper actually got telephone call from
>
> Ah! Get lost, you monkey!
> You are dead weed so why don't you contact him yoursef. Who gives a
> shit.
at long last stephanie has a good idea
we will contact mr reepers last residence can anybody send us a telephone
number
do not forget deer stephanie that in a long gone time some of us had a
passing acquaintence with mr reeper so it will not be difficult for us to do
the necessary fact finding for this group seeing as how abraxasshole has not
managed to do it only one question needs to be put did abraxasshole phone at
3 in the morning
Asparagus
<stevebl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1175160795.7...@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
be honest you are a masochist
>
Asparagus
<stevebl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1175160725.2...@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>> > My Words? Ha ha ha ha ha ha Ha ha ha ha ha ha!
>>
>> strange we laugh at your words as well now is that funny or not
> You are the staue of a sad clown!
the what
>> > You dumb can't begin to comprehend my words, let alone judge them!
>>
>> you cannot comprehend your words either so we are not alone
> Did you scratch your head or elsewhere to come up with that?
totally spontaineous
>> > See your masters for help.
>>
>> we would oif we had any but we have none
> Sure you do, you stupid liar.
we know better than you if we have masters or not
>>
>> > By the way, i know the difference enough to see that you are using the
>> > wrong device! Your input and output devices have been swapped around!
>>
>> so if we swap them back will you disappear
> Fat chance! Once you actually restore your devices then you will know
> what you have missed and will beg me to teach you more.
we have restored our devices and no we are not begging you for anything as
you have nothing worthwhile to teach us sad but true but what can be do but
boot your trews as we do often.
PaulHammond
Say! Netcop Steve is also impersonating Humpty Dumpty!
that figures...
>
> > but
> > baha's belive their claims to be true and therefore defensible i.e that they
> > are not bogus.
>
> I said to Hammond and say it to you. My personal belief is that the 19
> years thing by Bahais is crap.
Indeed you do believe that. But that doesn't make it true.
Nima used to believe that he had been personally inspired by God to
be an asshole, when he wasn't saying that the whole "New
Manifestation"
thing was a big joke. But no-one else believed him, then or now.
> > you therefore emerge as a pompous pedant and bigot who
> > tolerates nobody who disagrees with him indeed you canot argue because you
> > lack respect for views other than your own
>
> You are a fool!
You really do need lessons in that "insults" technique, don't you?
> Your thinking that someone who brings evidence and argument to reject
> a claim means they are 'bigots'.
Nope. That's not what Asparagus said. They said that assuming
*Baha'is* don't have equal belief in what they believe as you have
in what you believe is what makes you appear bigoted - that
you don't extend to beliefs of others the same courtesy
you *demand* for your own beliefs.
> Where have you been? You are clearly hurt. And this is all you can do.
> Turn it into hate, race garbage. Shut up if you don't have anything to
> say.
>
>
>
> > as for the insults we can only say that you are very thin skinned and not at
> > all good at returning them that plus the fact that you actually are not very
> > good at returning insults means you are a sad individual who needs to waken
> > up to the need to respect others.
>
> I rfresh your non existing memory. When you first intruded into the
> threads with irrelevant and smar ass comments which had nothing to do
> with the threads, you were ignored.
> You then got bolder and bolder and became abusive. That was when I
> made you to taste a spoon of your own food.
Mwahahahahaha! You ARE funny, Netcop Steve.
Have you seen Dirty Harry?
Remember when Clint Eastwood has the bad guy cornered? The
conversation about how many bullets he has left?
"Do you feel lucky, Punk?"
THAT is how to do menacing and threatening. THAT made the guy
give himself up and accept he was beaten.
But:
"I made you to taste a spoon of your own food"?
Just hilarious and amusing. Have you considered a career in
Pantomime?
> I have said that many times. Behave civilized and only then you can
> expect the same thing.
>
What if we want to call a fuckwit a fuckwit?
Tara chuck!
Paul
PaulHammond
Nope, I don't agree with you that Baha'u'llah was a liar, and I didn't
say such a thing.
However, Baha'u'llah *did* claim to have innate knowledge of
Holy Writings, and this is what I have expanded on at some length in
my serious response to your first post.
I'm sure I remember reading Baha'i stuff about Baha'u'llah reading
the Bab's works during his imprisonment in various places - and
he surely must have studied the Babi writings during his time
as a respected Babi figure.
But I don't see as how the claim that he "knew what was
written before it was revealed" means that he couldn't
also have read it with his actual, physical eyes.
Paul
PaulHammond
> On Mar 25, 10:49 pm, "PaulHammond" <pahamm...@onetel.net.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> tablet. The first one is ‘Maktab Khaneh’. It literally means the place
> for learning to write. This word is no longer used in the modern
> Persian. At the time it was used it referred to what would be ‘Primary
> School’ as we understand it. It is unambiguous and the only thing that
> can be understood from it is just that. The second word that
> complements it is the verb ‘Munavar’. This word means ‘illuminate’. In
> order to understand the meaning of it one must know the Iranian
> culture. When someone steps into a house, he is said to have
> ‘illuminated’ the house by his presence.
> In the context of this tablet it is telling us that the school would
> be illuminated if the tablet was mounted on its walls or somewhere in
> the school for everyone to see.
>
Okay. I still don't believe you that this was the Bab saying "put
these actual
physical words on the actual physical walls of the primary school
that you are going to build" It seems a bit too long for that, to me.
And there are lots of Baha'i analogies to manifestations being
like school teachers, and humanity progressing from class to
class.
i just assume the "illumanation" to be of this metaphorical,
spritual primary school.
> This is a provision for Bayanis to undertake. What would the purpose
> of such provision if the Promised one of Bayan had well passed the
> stage where he would attend the primary school. A provision which
> could have never been eventuated is a dead letter.
> Now, you don’t ‘illuminate’ a ‘spiritual’ or ‘divine’ school with a
> tablet as such. One would have thought such ‘school’ would be
> ‘radiant’ enough to be illuminated with one tablet.
>
I know what a "dead letter" is. I didn't understand the particular
phrase "would be a dead letter if
the claim made by Mirza Husayn-ALi who was at the age
of 50 were to be true"
meant and what Husayn Ali's age has to do with.
If you insist that the Bayanis ought to be putting this
letter in bronze on the walls of all their schools, I still
don't see what Baha'u'llah's age has to do with it.
Bayanis are still free to build as many primary schools
as they want to and inscribe these words on their walls,
surely?
>
>
> > > In Aqdas, Mirza Husayn-Ali refers to the epistle and responds angrily
> > > to it by saying:
> > > "O People of Al-Bayan, we entered the school of God while you were
> > > reclining, and we carefully observed the tablet while you were asleep,
> > > By God, the true one, we read it before its descent, but you were
> > > careless."
>
> > > The only thing we get out of this response is that he is offended by
> > > it.
>
> > I don't get that from it at all. He seems to be claiming innate
> > knowledge of the Bab's writings. Doesn't sound particularly
> > angry to me.
>
> Perhaps, not to your standard. He is taking a swipe at the Bayanis
> who reminded him about the tablet and its implications.
Only in your interpretation.
> By using the
> words “you were reclining” and “you were asleep” he is clearly in a
> defensive mode.
I disagree. To me, the words about "I knew this while you were
sleeping",
and the stuff about having knowledge before something descended"
is a clear reference to a Manfestation's claim of innate, direct
knowledge (and possibly the superiority of such knowledge
over the ordinary sort).
This seems pretty straightforward to me.
> The equivalent of it is used in everyday conversation
> by people who respond in that manner to defend themselves.
> What you should know is that there is no school for the divine
> knowledge. It is direct. In other words Bayanis believe God speaks
> through its manifestation and therefore “to have entered a school”
> simply does not arise. “To have entered at a time when people of Bayan
> were “fast sleeping” or “reclining” is just meaningless.
>
This is something of an argument from lack of understanding here,
isn't it?
You have fairly arrogantly asserted that because the only
thing YOU get from this passage is an impression that
Baha'u'llah is angry with the people who asked him the
question, that MUST be the only correct interpretation.
He doesn't sound angry to me, and I get a different understanding
of what's being expressed here.
Considering you are not exactly an unbiased interpreter of
Baha'u'llah, I don't see why we should take your interpretations
as gospel, or "the only possible".
>
>
> > "we read it before its descent" = "I knew what was written
> > in it before it was written".
>
> These are not said here. Mirza Husayn-Ali uttered these when he was
> told he had studied the writings of Bayan. Quote your reference.
>
"By God, the true one, we read it before its descent, but you were
>> careless."
This is from your translation of the passage which you quote above.
"descent" means "descent from heaven", right?
So, "we read it before its descent" (which is what you say the
tablet says) means I knew what was in it before it was
written.
>
>
> > > We know that Mirza Husayn-Ali learned to read and write in his child-
> > > hood just like any other child. Moreover we (Bayanis) expect that the
> > > parents of HWGSMM would not recognise their child to have been blessed
> > > with such station and hence he would be put into a primary school like
> > > every other child as the Primal Point was.
>
> > I don't believe the Bab was referring to a real, actual and physical
> > primary school.
>
> That is purely an expression of your personal belief which is not of
> interest here. The reasons are what I am interested in. If I wanted to
> do that, I wouldn’t have provided references and describe in detail
> why. I would have just sufficed to say “Mirza Husayn-Ali is lying
> about the 19 years”.
>
Sorry, but WHY should we believe that the Bab's epistle
for the illumination of the Primary School HAS to mean
a physical primary school.
THAT is purely an expression of YOUR personal belief.
And I think that you are wrong, and that is why your
argument that we can ignore the 19 years reference
is wrong.
However many references you provide, it's not hiding the
fact that your argument depends on us actually INTERPRETING
the texts you quote the same we that you do.
I do NOT interpret these texts the same way you do - that's
why I don't agree with your argument.
>
>
> > > Therefore Mirza Husayn-Ali’s response does help his case here at all.
> > > There is of course the issue of whether he did study Bayanic writings
> > > or not which is a different subject.
>
> > Of course he did! He was a Babi.
>
> Ah! Tell it to your Bahai friends. Mirza Husayn-Ali denies he ever
> studied the writings of the Primal Point.
>
I'm not sure that he always does - but I guess we can discuss this in
the actual thread where you've trumpted this as "Paul Hammond
agrees with me that Baha'u'llah was a dirty liar", which I don't
by the way.
>
>
>
> > > Abbas also comes to the help of his father and claims the school is
> > > meant to be a spiritual one not a physical one. He doesn’t however
> > > explain where People of Bayan would find this school to illuminate its
> > > walls with this tablet!
>
> > > And that was just the title.
>
> > > Bahais have taken out the 19 years out of its context here and produce
> > > it as a proof that WHGSMM would have to wait for no more than 19
> > > years.
>
> > > Firstly, the middle part of the tablet says: “if …… you were to
> > > dismiss all the people of the Bayan with a gesture of hand as you suck
> > > milk at the breast of your mother will be praiseworthy for your
> > > gesture.”
> > > This suggests that HWGSMM would spend the period of his infancy inside
> > > of the Bayanic era.
>
> > No it doesn't. That's simply your self-serving interpretation.
>
> Read what I said about 'Maktab Khaneh', 'Illumination' and its
> implication.
Yes. I disagree with that interpretation also.
> Tell me why it doesn't. You have my reasons.
>
I have told you, below. This is the Bab saying that HWetc is
worth all of his being.
It's NOT the Bab saying "HWetc is physically a baby now, or is
unborn now".
It's a parable about power (the little wave of your baby
finger is more powerful than my entire being), not
a statement about physical age.
>
>
> > What it appears to mean to me is the Bab's oft-expressed
> > notion that the WHOLE of his dispensation could be
> > considered a gift to that of "Him Whom God will etc. Etc."
>
> Yes it is. But that is not the issue. The issue is the timing of the
> appearance of HWGSMM.
>
But, this paragraph about infancy isn't ABOUT that. It's a parable
about relative power. Not a prophecy about relative
timing.
>
>
> > "If you were to dismiss all the people with a wave of
> > your infant hand"
>
> > "If you were to regard the entirety of my life's work as
> > but a teardrop in the expanse of the ocean of your
> > revelation"
>
> > "May my life be his sacrfice".
>
> Read above and quote your reference!
>
"May my life be his sacrifce" is a formula oft used by
for instance, Abdu'l Baha - I imagine it was a common
saying amongst Baha'is and Babis, and the sentiment,
of sacrifice of yourself for a greater cause, or for
the holy cause is extremely well known.
I'm not talking about any particular, exact reference (I don't
have any Baha'i books here, don't search ocean, )
but that's not the point - I'm saying that THIS is LIKE
that.
Fact is, this reference to "dismissing" with an infants
finger is JUST and ONLY to get over the idea of
the much greater power of HWetc (in the Bab's
eyes) - and the fact that he could change the
laws, would bring a whole new revelation, etc.,etc.
etc.
And NOT a prophecy regarding the physical age
of HWetc at the current or some future time.
>
>
> > > We know that at the time this tablet was revealed
> > > Mirza Husayn-Ali had well passed the stage of an infant and was a
> > > grown up man. And more importantly Mirza Husayn-Ali could not have
> > > dismissed People of Bayan “whilst he was sucking milk from the breast
> > > of her mother” because there was no such thing as a Bayani when this
> > > was happening.
>
> > Husayn Ali was, indeed, two years *older* than the Bab.
>
> very good. The tablet could not have been for him.
>
Bullshit! You haven't been trying to understand my argument at
all, have you?
This tablet is a PARABLE about power and responsiblity.
The Primary school was a PARABLE about spiritual progress.
Neither was the reference to a "Primary School" a reference
to any actual, physical building made of bricks and mortar,
nor is the reference to an "infants fingers" a reference to
any actual, physical infant.
The whole of your attempt to dismiss the reference
to 19 years depends on us sharing your belief that
these references must and can only be
to such actual physical entities.
I simply don't believe this to be the only possible
interpretation as you assert.
>
>
> > But I don't think this passage is a gross allusion to the actual
> > physical age of "Him Whom etc etc" at all. Why do you think so?
>
> You need to read what I said again. I am not talking about the age of
> HWGSMM. What I said was that the provision to mount a tablet at
> primary school would be a dead letter if Mirza Husayn-Ali’s claim who
> was 50 years old at the time of he made his claim very public were to
> be true.
Nope. I'm still not understanding this.
Let me try, and you tell me if this is right.
1) The Bab is talking about a physical primary school.
2) The Bab's actual words must at some time be actually
physically mounted on the walls of some Primary school
at some future time.
3) If Baha'u'llah really is HWGWMM, then the Bab's revelation
is superseded immediately.
4) In that case, there cannot be a Babi primary school, and
the Babi's cannot mount the Bab's words on its walls.
5) Since there hasn't been a Babi school built with the
words of this particular letter of the Bab written on its
walls, Baha'u'llah, or anyone else cannot be HWGWMM
until after this has happened.
Is THIS what you are meaning by all that "dead letter" guff?
Seems to be putting an inordinate amount of emphasis
on some chain of Babi-inspired primary schools
coming into being somehow if that is the case.
The implication of this provision on the appearance of
> HWGSMM.
>
> > > Now, let’s get to the latter part of the passage which is of interest
> > > to Bahais: “But undoubtedly you will have patience for nineteen years
> > > to reward those who embrace the Bayani fruit as a favour your part”.
>
> > > You can’t fully understand this bit unless you read it as part of the
> > > whole passage. The bit that is missing here and fully dissolves the
> > > Bahai claim, comes at the beginning of the passage: “If in the next
> > > resurrection”.
>
> > That means "next manifestation" undoubtedly - but lets see what
> > you make of it:
>
> No! You are changing my words again. I wrote “next resurrection” not
> “next manifestation”. These two are two different things.
Doesn't seem so to me. The time of the resurrection is the
time of the next manifestation - that's something to do with the
doctrine of "return" isn't it?
And look, while I'm trying to follow difficult concepts and make a
serious response to your argukment, I don't appreciate being
told not to paraphrase to try to understand better.
I don't agree with you, but I'm making an effort to follow your
arguments here.
Let me
> transpose what would be “the next resurrection” if Mirza Husayn-Ali’s
> claim were to be true:
> Let’s imagine Mirza Husayn-Ali made his claim 1863 (which is made up,
> he made that in 1866 in Edirne). Based on the passages from Bayan
> which I quoted, 1866 would be “the start of the resurrection of
> Bayan”. The resurrection of Bayan would end when Mirza Husayn-Ali
> died. According to the tablet from 1863, Mirza Husayn-Ali would have
> had to wait for 19 years before he gets to “dismiss the People of
> Bayan”. In other words, 1863 to 1882 would be spent ...
>
Yeah - it seemed convoluted and confusing the first time I read it.
What I understood was that it was a way to chage the counting to
make 1863 NOT fit the 19 years reference.
You made some argument that the difference between "resurrection"
and "manifestation" meant that, strictly speaking, the Babi era ought
to date from 1850, rather than 1844.
I believe I asked you a direct question regarding usual Bayani
understandings on this point.
According to the usual Bayani calendar, what year are we in now?
Paul
stevebl...@yahoo.com
I explained in detail:
- The use of 'primary school' here and not just any school. Primary
school (pysical or spiritual) do not apply to manifestations of God.
The term 'primary school' is in line with the body of the text where
it envisages a time when HWGSMM is a milk suckling baby.
- The 'illumination' does not apply to a 'spiritual school'. As I said
earlier the 'Spiritual school' would be radiant enought not needing a
single tablet to illuminate it.
- The provision is in an instructive tone to the People of Bayan.
- The body of the text refers to the next resurrection which was (is)
yet to eventuate and hence is in line with the ttle of the tablet as a
provision to be undertaken in the future.
I have put out reasons and what do I get from you as reason: "a bit
too strong for that", which is meaningless.
>, to me.
>
> And there are lots of Baha'i analogies to manifestations being
> like school teachers, and humanity progressing from class to
> class.
You are jumping to a wrong tree here. Bayan compares progressive
revelations with different grades of schooling to describe the need of
the mankind for more comprehensive teachings as time passes. It has
nothing to do with the manifestation of God.
>
> i just assume the "illumanation" to be of this metaphorical,
> spritual primary school.
It is not the "illumination" which is interpreted as 'pgysical' or
'metaphysical' meaning of a school. It is the 'primary school' that is
debated to be interpreted as a 'primary school' or 'spiritual
school'.
The 'illumination' means to honor a place with something valuable.
Apiritual school which in itself is a blasphemy does not need to be
honored. To illuminate means that the place was an ordinary place
before it is 'illuminated'.
>
> > This is a provision for Bayanis to undertake. What would the purpose
> > of such provision if the Promised one of Bayan had well passed the
> > stage where he would attend the primary school. A provision which
> > could have never been eventuated is a dead letter.
> > Now, you don’t ‘illuminate’ a ‘spiritual’ or ‘divine’ school with a
> > tablet as such. One would have thought such ‘school’ would be
> > ‘radiant’ enough to be illuminated with one tablet.
>
> I know what a "dead letter" is. I didn't understand the particular
> phrase "would be a dead letter if
> the claim made by Mirza Husayn-ALi who was at the age
> of 50 were to be true"
>
> meant and what Husayn Ali's age has to do with.
Well! What is it you are waiting for then. As I aid before the title
and body refer to a time in a future post Huayn-Ali. Is that clear?
>
> If you insist that the Bayanis ought to be putting this
> letter in bronze on the walls of all their schools, I still
> don't see what Baha'u'llah's age has to do with it.
>
> Bayanis are still free to build as many primary schools
> as they want to and inscribe these words on their walls,
> surely?
>
What is discussed here is teh fact that the provision in the tablet
implicates that HWGSMM is yet to be born (from Bayani parents), become
a milk suckling baby, and go to the primary school.
That Bayanis can stillperform the provision and nothing stops them
doing it is not the issue.
>
> > > > In Aqdas, Mirza Husayn-Ali refers to the epistle and responds angrily
> > > > to it by saying:
> > > > "O People of Al-Bayan, we entered the school of God while you were
> > > > reclining, and we carefully observed the tablet while you were asleep,
> > > > By God, the true one, we read it before its descent, but you were
> > > > careless."
>
> > > > The only thing we get out of this response is that he is offended by
> > > > it.
>
> > > I don't get that from it at all. He seems to be claiming innate
> > > knowledge of the Bab's writings. Doesn't sound particularly
> > > angry to me.
>
> > Perhaps, not to your standard. He is taking a swipe at the Bayanis
> > who reminded him about the tablet and its implications.
>
> Only in your interpretation.
Husayn-Ali's defence is a very classic Persian line of bragging about
something when they are challenged. Needs no interpretation.
>
> > By using the
> > words “you were reclining” and “you were asleep” he is clearly in a
> > defensive mode.
>
> I disagree. To me, the words about "I knew this while you were
> sleeping",
> and the stuff about having knowledge before something descended"
> is a clear reference to a Manfestation's claim of innate, direct
> knowledge (and possibly the superiority of such knowledge
> over the ordinary sort).
>
> This seems pretty straightforward to me.
Does it?
- Who is the title of the tablet addressed to?
- What do we do about the 'milk suclking stage of infancy of HWGSMM'
is that also a metaphysical stage?
- What is the 'next resurrection' applying to?
Mirza Husayn-Ali backfires, doesn't answer these issues and says
according to Bahais "I went to a spiritual school"..
>
> > The equivalent of it is used in everyday conversation
> > by people who respond in that manner to defend themselves.
> > What you should know is that there is no school for the divine
> > knowledge. It is direct. In other words Bayanis believe God speaks
> > through its manifestation and therefore “to have entered a school”
> > simply does not arise. “To have entered at a time when people of Bayan
> > were “fast sleeping” or “reclining” is just meaningless.
>
> This is something of an argument from lack of understanding here,
> isn't it?
You are assuming that it does have a meaning. See above where I said
it Husayn-Ali's response has nothing to do with the implication of the
title of the tablet. Entering a school of whatever sort does not arise
for manifestations of God because God speaks through them.
>
> You have fairly arrogantly asserted that because the only
> thing YOU get from this passage is an impression that
> Baha'u'llah is angry with the people who asked him the
> question, that MUST be the only correct interpretation.
>
> He doesn't sound angry to me, and I get a different understanding
> of what's being expressed here.
>
> Considering you are not exactly an unbiased interpreter of
> Baha'u'llah, I don't see why we should take your interpretations
> as gospel, or "the only possible".
Once again, I am not interested in the expressions of your beliefs.
All I get from you is "I disagree", "I believe". I bring reasons and
arguments and expect the same thing. I already know what your beliefs
are.
>
>
>
> > > "we read it before its descent" = "I knew what was written
> > > in it before it was written".
>
> > These are not said here. Mirza Husayn-Ali uttered these when he was
> > told he had studied the writings of Bayan. Quote your reference.
>
> "By God, the true one, we read it before its descent, but you were
>
> >> careless."
>
> This is from your translation of the passage which you quote above.
>
> "descent" means "descent from heaven", right?
>
> So, "we read it before its descent" (which is what you say the
> tablet says) means I knew what was in it before it was
> written.
>
You only read what is written and "read" is not "knowing".
The point you keep missing here is that the title and the body refer
to events in a time in future and Husayn-Ali is not answering the
implications raised in the tablet. Again:
- Who is the title of the tablet addressed to?
- What do we do about the 'milk suclking stage of infancy of HWGSMM'
is that also a metaphysical stage?
- What is the 'next resurrection' applying to?
>
>
>
> > > > We know that Mirza Husayn-Ali learned to read and write in his child-
> > > > hood just like any other child. Moreover we (Bayanis) expect that the
> > > > parents of HWGSMM would not recognise their child to have been blessed
> > > > with such station and hence he would be put into a primary school like
> > > > every other child as the Primal Point was.
>
> > > I don't believe the Bab was referring to a real, actual and physical
> > > primary school.
>
> > That is purely an expression of your personal belief which is not of
> > interest here. The reasons are what I am interested in. If I wanted to
> > do that, I wouldn’t have provided references and describe in detail
> > why. I would have just sufficed to say “Mirza Husayn-Ali is lying
> > about the 19 years”.
>
> Sorry, but WHY should we believe that the Bab's epistle
> for the illumination of the Primary School HAS to mean
> a physical primary school.
I described in detail before and repeat here what I said above:
- The use of 'primary school' here and not just any school. Primary
school (pysical or spiritual) do not apply to manifestations of God.
The term 'primary school' is in line with the body of the text where
it envisages a time when HWGSMM is a milk suckling baby.
- The 'illumination' does not apply to a 'spiritual school'. As I said
earlier the 'Spiritual school' would be radiant enought not needing a
single tablet to illuminate it.
- The provision is in an instructive tone to the People of Bayan.
- The body of the text refers to the next resurrection which was (is)
yet to eventuate and hence is in line with the ttle of the tablet as a
provision to be undertaken in the future.
>
> THAT is purely an expression of YOUR personal belief.
No it is not. I have given my reasons. Let's hear yours.
>
> And I think that you are wrong, and that is why your
> argument that we can ignore the 19 years reference
> is wrong.
Ho ho ho!
Don't do long jumping; hold your horses.
Here is another one of your "I think". Up until this point here we
were talking about the title only and its implications to Mirza Husayn-
Ali's claim.
IT is the BODY of the tablet which is distorted by the Bahais to mean
that that it would take no more than 19 years for the next
manifestation to occur. I explained based on the meaning of the
'resurrection' from Bayan, the implication of 'next resurrection' and
that the Bahai claim was a clear distortion of the body of the tablet.
>
> However many references you provide, it's not hiding the
> fact that your argument depends on us actually INTERPRETING
> the texts you quote the same we that you do.
My references are to support my reasons. You don't bring any reason or
reference and keep insisiting on the Bahai position, the in-defense-
ability of which is established by my reasons and the abscence of
yours.
>
> I do NOT interpret these texts the same way you do - that's
> why I don't agree with your argument.
Reasons? Reasons?
>
>
>
> > > > Therefore Mirza Husayn-Ali’s response does help his case here at all.
> > > > There is of course the issue of whether he did study Bayanic writings
> > > > or not which is a different subject.
>
> > > Of course he did! He was a Babi.
>
> > Ah! Tell it to your Bahai friends. Mirza Husayn-Ali denies he ever
> > studied the writings of the Primal Point.
>
> I'm not sure that he always does -
What is it you are unsure about? That Husayn-Ali sometimes says he has
read and studied Bayan and sometimes he swears that that has not. It
is obvious that you danced before the song begins and now you are not
sure anymore. You said the obvious thing that Husayn-Ali as a Babi DID
read Bayan and now you are not sure any more. In any case you
confirmed the Bayani position that Mirza Husayn-Ali as a Babi read and
studied Bayan and he lied when he said he didn't.
> but I guess we can discuss this in
> the actual thread where you've trumpted this as "Paul Hammond
> agrees with me that Baha'u'llah was a dirty liar", which I don't
> by the way.
That is in this same thread:
http://groups.google.com.au/group/talk.religion.bahai/msg/882997e6ecec60fe?hl=en&
where I said:
Paul Hammond agrees Mirza Husayn-Ali lied when he said he had not
studied Bayan:
" Of course he did! He was a Babi."
Which is true and you HAVE conformed.
To summarise:
The title and the body of the text refer to a time in future post
Mirza Husayn-Ali.
The 'next resurrection' and the meaning of resurrection based on Bayan
clearly proves that Bahais have presented a distorted interpretation
of the tablet to cut down Mustaghath to 19 years.
A version of Mustaghtah which was later re-interpreted again by Husayn-
Ali
http://groups.google.com.au/group/talk.religion.bahai/browse_frm/thread/298abc6926e9cbb9/dd52844d2f0b9f9d?hl=en#dd52844d2f0b9f9d
>
> > > > Abbas also comes to the help of his father and claims the school is
> > > > meant to be a spiritual one not a physical one. He doesn’t however
> > > > explain where People of Bayan would find this school to illuminate its
> > > > walls with this tablet!
>
> > > > And that was just the title.
>
> > > > Bahais have taken out the 19 years out of its context here and produce
> > > > it as a proof that WHGSMM would have to wait for no more than 19
> > > > years.
>
> > > > Firstly, the middle part
>
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
stevebl...@yahoo.com
body to take away his title.
As for you, you are dumb enough not to understand that if you think
you can distort other people's views and is OK then you are a pathetic
ignorant.
>
>
>
> > > but
> > > baha's belive their claims to be true and therefore defensible i.e that they
> > > are not bogus.
>
> > I said to Hammond and say it to you. My personal belief is that the 19
> > years thing by Bahais is crap.
>
> Indeed you do believe that. But that doesn't make it true.
It does. Because I brought argument from Bayan itself. That the 19
years was in the resurrection of Bayan not since the appearance of the
Point. But these things are just too strong for you to comprehend.
>
> Nima used to believe that he had been personally inspired by God to
> be an asshole, when he wasn't saying that the whole "New
> Manifestation"
> thing was a big joke. But no-one else believed him, then or now.
What that has got to do with the Bahai claim of 19 years and Dead
Weed. Stay on one branch of the tree you monkey.
>
> > > you therefore emerge as a pompous pedant and bigot who
> > > tolerates nobody who disagrees with him indeed you canot argue because you
> > > lack respect for views other than your own
>
> > You are a fool!
>
> You really do need lessons in that "insults" technique, don't you?
>
> > Your thinking that someone who brings evidence and argument to reject
> > a claim means they are 'bigots'.
>
> Nope. That's not what Asparagus said. They said that assuming
> *Baha'is* don't have equal belief in what they believe as you have
> in what you believe is what makes you appear bigoted - that
> you don't extend to beliefs of others the same courtesy
> you *demand* for your own beliefs.
You and Dead Weed are mentally twisted. I am not here to show courtesy
to false and distorted accounts.
Calling something false is one thing, being disrespectful is another.
Bahais claim Subh-i Azal "lied" do they admit they are disrespectful
to him because of this.
>
>
>
>
>
> > Where have you been? You are clearly hurt. And this is all you can do.
> > Turn it into hate, race garbage. Shut up if you don't have anything to
> > say.
>
> > > as for the insults we can only say that you are very thin skinned and not at
> > > all good at returning them that plus the fact that you actually are not very
> > > good at returning insults means you are a sad individual who needs to waken
> > > up to the need to respect others.
>
> > I rfresh your non existing memory. When you first intruded into the
> > threads with irrelevant and smar ass comments which had nothing to do
> > with the threads, you were ignored.
> > You then got bolder and bolder and became abusive. That was when I
> > made you to taste a spoon of your own food.
>
> Mwahahahahaha! You ARE funny, Netcop Steve.
Don't mumble! What I said is true and that describes Daed Weed.
>
> Have you seen Dirty Harry?
Get lost.
>
> Remember when Clint Eastwood has the bad guy cornered? The
> conversation about how many bullets he has left?
>
> "Do you feel lucky, Punk?"
>
> THAT is how to do menacing and threatening. THAT made the guy
> give himself up and accept he was beaten.
>
> But:
> "I made you to taste a spoon of your own food"?
>
> Just hilarious and amusing. Have you considered a career in
> Pantomime?
Get lost! I returned Dead Weed's abuse and he doesn't like it, so I
continue to feed him with he coocks for others.
Fair!
Now, stop watching Dirty Harry, you have wateched too much DIRT.
>
> > I have said that many times. Behave civilized and only then you can
> > expect the same thing.
>
> What if we want to call a fuckwit a fuckwit?
Get fucked you monkey!
>
> Tara chuck!
Talk to me when you are sober.
>
> Paul- Hide quoted text -
stevebl...@yahoo.com
> On Mar 26, 10:06 am, steveblombe...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 25, 10:49 pm, "PaulHammond" <pahamm...@onetel.net.uk> wrote:
>
> > "Therefore Mirza Husayn-Ali's response does not help his case here at
> > all.
> > There is of course the issue of whether he did study Bayanic writings
> > or not which is a different subject."
>
> > Paul Hammond agrees Mirza Husayn-Ali lied when he said he had not
> > studied Bayan:
> > " Of course he did! He was a Babi."
>
> > Continuing on what I said earlier:
> > In his Epistle to the Son of the Wolf the last book written by Mirza
> > Husayn-Ali before his death in 1892 and subsequent to the Ishraqat
> > Mirza Husayn-Ali states that:
> > "God testifieth and beareth Me witness that this Wronged One hath not
> > perused the Bayán, nor been acquainted with its contents. This much,
> > however, is known and is clear and indubitable that He hath ordained
> > the Book of the Bayán to be the foundation of His works."
>
> Nope, I don't agree with you that Baha'u'llah was a liar, and I didn't
> say such a thing.
Let me refresh your ity bity memory:
" Of course he did! He was a Babi."
This makes Husayn-Ali a liar when he said he did not read Bayan and I
quoted it from ESW.
>
> However, Baha'u'llah *did* claim to have innate knowledge of
> Holy Writings, and this is what I have expanded on at some length in
> my serious response to your first post.
Your serious response! You are flattering yourself. You keep repeating
you don't agree without challenging my reasons.
This is again what the man says:
"god testifith and beareth Me witness that this wronged one hath not
perused the Bayan nor been acquainted with its contents. This much,
however, is known and is clear and indubitable that he hath ordained
the Book of the Bayan to be the foundation of His words (p.165)."
Contrast it what your "Of course he did! He was a Babi"
>
> I'm sure I remember reading Baha'i stuff about Baha'u'llah reading
> the Bab's works during his imprisonment in various places - and
> he surely must have studied the Babi writings during his time
> as a respected Babi figure.
Very good! I want the reference of that.
>
> But I don't see as how the claim that he "knew what was
> written before it was revealed" means that he couldn't
> also have read it with his actual, physical eyes.
You are mising up.
1) Mirza Husayn-Ali lied when he said he did not read Bayan
2) The title and body of the table refers to events in future post
Husayn-Ali's time which makes his a liar again.
PaulHammond
Try again.
I said "too LONG", which is not meaningless.
You say the Bab is referring here to an actual, physical school.
I still see no evidence for that except "you think so".
So, you think the Bab is instructing the Babis to actually
build this school. And you HAVE bolstered your
argument by quoting a load of spurious details.
But they still ARE spurious details.
I still think that the Bab was talking METAPHORICALLY - ie there
is no bricks and mortar school involved here.
So, TOO LONG.
You reckon the Babis are supposed to build a whole load of
actual primary schools, and INSCRIBE THE TEXT OF THIS
WHOLE TABLET on the walls.
Who is going to read the tablet there - the five year old
primary kids?
This tablet is TOO LONG to inscribe on the walls.
It isn't a simple inspiring motto like "In God we trust"
or "The Cat sat on the Mat".
It is too long to inscribe on the walls, and too complex
for the PRIMARY school pupils to understand.
Now, before I get to the rest of your reply, can you
kindly address the point I ACTUALLY made, instead of
deliberately misreading it and pronouncing it nonsense
because you can't tell the difference between
"long" and "strong"!
Paul
PaulHammond
>
> What is discussed here is teh fact that the provision in the tablet
> implicates that HWGSMM is yet to be born (from Bayani parents), become
> a milk suckling baby, and go to the primary school.
> That Bayanis can stillperform the provision and nothing stops them
> doing it is not the issue.
>
Okay - all you are doing is repeating these arguments over and over.
You say that this tablet implies that the next manifestation must
go through the physical stage of being an infant after the Bab
dies.
But I don't see where it says that.
You interpret it differently from me, but you are priviliging your
interpretation as being "obvious" and "factual" and my interpretation
as being just my opinion.
But, actually, my opinion is equally as good as yours.
This tablet from the Bab does NOT refer to a physical school,
it refers to the stages of evolution - a metaphor for human
progress, and for the coming of manifestations as
humankinds teachers.
You see an implication of Baha'u'llah having to be a milk-sucking
infant, in physcial terms, at some time after the Bab said this.
But I see only a metaphorical instance of the Bab extolling
the spiritual power of his successor, which contains no
information at all about that successor's current age.
You keep going on about these "implications" which the
Baha'i interpretation doesn't answer.
But I don't see these implications at all - however much
you go on about them.
You've got your interpretation of this verse.
But your interpretation of this verse is simply wrong.
That's all there is to say.
Paul
PaulHammond
>
> That's all there is to say.
>
> Paul
There's one other thing to say - I've asked you a direct question
which I
haven't seen the answer to yet.
Tell me, what is the current year according to the Bayani calendar?
Paul
Wahid Azal
> Tell me, what is the current year according to the Bayani calendar?
159 according to the lunar reckoning (which is right on the very first
page of the bayanic.com website for those ignoramus twits who can't be
bothered punching in a simple web address) and 157 according to my
solar reckoning:
Note on the so-called Ayyam-i-Ha of bahaim: A normal year consists of
365 days. Only a leap year has 366 days. Obviously Husayn 'Ali Nari
could not count properly because any solar intercalary calculation
would make those days Ayyam-i-Dal (i.e. the days to the calulation of
the letter dal, 'd', letter dal = 4) not Ha (letter ha = 5). Ayyam-i-
Ha would technically only occur for the leap years not the normal
years.
So much for the 'supreme manifestation of the day' who could not even
count properly! Amazing that this hasn't even occured to you bahaim!!
W
stevebl...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
After all this you still do not understand what 'illumination is for'.
It is not for kids to read it. It is to honor the school with.
stevebl...@yahoo.com
I have told you why the school meant here is the physical primary
school.
Give me yours to say that it is a spiritual one.
Your ramble anout progress is just irrelevant. It is talking about the
authority of HWGSMM which is established for him even as an infant.
stevebl...@yahoo.com
I did give you all references.
If you look at www.bayani.com, it gives you today's date:
second day of the 18th month of 159 of the Bayani calendar.
stevebl...@yahoo.com
You did not answer this however:
How do you explain the Bahai claim 19 years since the appearance of
the Primal Point in 1844, when the tablet refers to the period in the
next resurrection.
Also, when did the the resurrection of Bayan commence and when did it
end?
PaulHammond
> On Apr 8, 12:54 am, "PaulHammond" <pahamm...@onetel.net.uk> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 7, 3:50 pm, "PaulHammond" <pahamm...@onetel.net.uk> wrote:
>
> > > That's all there is to say.
>
> > > Paul
>
> > There's one other thing to say - I've asked you a direct question
> > which I
> > haven't seen the answer to yet.
>
> > Tell me, what is the current year according to the Bayani calendar?
>
> > Paul
>
> I did give you all references.
> second day of the 18th month of 159 of the Bayani calendar.
I've just looked up bayani.com
Two problems:
a) it seems to be written entirely in Tagalog
b) the only dates I could see on that site were today's date in CE
format -
22 April 2007.
But, I take it that, ignoring the snidyness, you *are* saying that
by Bayani reckoning this year is 159.
Paul
PaulHammond
Yes. And I've told you why I think it's referring to a spiritual
school.
> Your ramble anout progress is just irrelevant. It is talking about the
No it isn't. It is absolutely relevant, central to my contention that
the Bab's talk about "Primary School" is very, very strongly
related to the idea of Progressive revelation - which I think
is the context of the Bab mentioning the Primary School.
> authority of HWGSMM which is established for him even as an infant.-
Quite - that's the other thing I said - the mention of the flicking
of an infant's fingers in relation to the power of the Bab's
manifestation is an allegory of the power of HWGWMM,
not a reference to the actual physical age of HWGWMM
at the time the Bab wrote this.
I'm pleased you have understood the point I was making there.
Paul
PaulHammond
>
Oh, I understand fine.
I just don't agree with you.
And thanks for not bothering to apologise for your
misreading of my last post, and ridiculing me for
something I haven't said.
I STILL think this text is TOO LONG. To be put on the
walls of your imaginary physical school - a point
which you don't comment on.
I'm glad you agree with me that it's TOO COMPLICATED
for Primary Ages kids to understand..
Paul
Wahid Azal
> Two problems:
>
> a) it seems to be written entirely in Tagalog
Get new glasses and change your prescription anti-psychotic.
W
PaulHammond
Just checked it.
The reference Steve gave me
(www.bayani.com)
is clearly a Phillipina website, none of which is written in English.
Berate your fellow Bayani for missing out the "c" from bayanic. Stop
bothering me about it.
Paul
Wahid Azal
> The reference Steve gave me
> (www.bayani.com)
>
> is clearly a Phillipina website, none of which is written in English.
Change your glasses and get a better pair of prescriptions as well as
binoculars to go with with, limey ponce, because Steve gave you
www.bayanic.com (with a "c" at the end) not www.bayani.com. My, how
the bahaim will stumble over themselves when in absolute and total
desperation!
W
PaulHammond
> On Apr 30, 3:34 am, PaulHammond <pahamm...@onetel.net.uk> wrote:
>
> > The reference Steve gave me
> > (www.bayani.com)
>
> > is clearly a Phillipina website, none of which is written in English.
>
> Change your glasses and get a better pair of prescriptions as well as
> the bahaim will stumble over themselves when in absolute and total
> desperation!
>
> W
Now, now, Nima. Your nose is growing long.
But if you'd rather bang on about Steve's typo than continue the
serious
discussion I've attempted with Steve elsewhere in this thread, who
am I to stop you?
http://groups.google.com/group/talk.religion.bahai/msg/94ecba9ada9d7ba2
"I did give you all references.
If you look at www.bayani.com, it gives you today's date:
second day of the 18th month of 159 of the Bayani calendar."
(message 67, April 8, in date order on this thread)
I clicked thru from his message direct.
I'm sure you and Steve are aware of this typo problem, since "Bayanic"
is your own site. You must have taken that name because "bayani"
was already taken.
But I don't think referencing your own site to back up your arguments
is a particularly strong move - especially when you get the url wrong!
Wahid Azal
> On Apr 30, 12:56 am, Wahid Azal <wahidaza...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 30, 3:34 am, PaulHammond <pahamm...@onetel.net.uk> wrote:
>
> > > The reference Steve gave me
> > > (www.bayani.com)
>
> > > is clearly a Phillipina website, none of which is written in English.
>
> > Change your glasses and get a better pair of prescriptions as well as
> > the bahaim will stumble over themselves when in absolute and total
> > desperation!
>
> > W
>
> Now, now, Nima. Your nose is growing long.
LOL! You stumble over yourself trying to figure out the difference
between bayanic.com and bayani.com - deliberately - grasping at
straws, as usual, and my nose is growing long, O Finnochio (Italian
for 'ponce').
W
PaulHammond
I'm sorry?
We just had a three week bluster from you over the fact that YOUR
MATE made a typo which sent me to the wrong site - and YOU
decided that your mate's type meant that *I* was stupid.
Actually, Nima, I did find "bayanic" about 5 minutes after I posted
the first time saying that I couldn't see any Baha'i dates and the
whole site was written in Tagalog.
But rather than just talk about the substance of the argument,
you prefered to make a stupid argument about an irrelevancy.
But that's just the kind of crap we have all come to expect from
a yellow no-show holy chicken like yourself!
Ta ta!
Paul
stevebl...@yahoo.com
You still don't get it.
You obviously have not seen or obviously can't comprehend why mosques
or other places are adorned with long verses from Quran. It is not
necessarily meant to be read in full.
The actual quote from Quran or in this case from Bayanic texts by
itself illuminates the place in other words it honors the place.
The tablet illuminating the primary school is meant to be a reminder.
You read it once.
It is also a reminder to the teachers not to be disrespectful to the
children because HWGSMM may well be amongst them.
This is clearly described in Bayan where it prohibits punishing
children because the teacher does know his teacher.
Now, tell me do we have physical punishment in a spiritual school?
The point is that Husayn-Ali got offended by the implication of the
verse and came up with an irrelevant excuse.
The point was not whether HWGSMM had inner knowledge or not. The point
was that HWGSMM would have a childhood in the Bayanic era and that His
parents not knowing Him would put him to a Primary School like every
other parent. This was also the case with the Primal Point. His uncle
put Him to Primary School.
But Husayn-Ali picked the wrong end of the stick, did not answer the
implication of the verse and answered the wrong question.
The other main point you missed was that the whole thing about
dismissing the people of Bayan was to make the point that HWGMM would
wait for 19 years from the time of the next resurrection.
Are you now clear on the origin of the Bayanic calendar?
stevebl...@yahoo.com
Long for what purpose? To frame it and put it on the wall?
As I said before, take a tour of the Islamic architecture to see how
they have adorned the entire walls with Quranic verses.
>
> I STILL think this text is TOO LONG. To be put on the
> walls of your imaginary physical school - a point
> which you don't comment on.
You are just bent on disputing no matter what. See above and let me
know if you want more of my comments.
>
> I'm glad you agree with me that it's TOO COMPLICATED
> for Primary Ages kids to understand..
Do not over gloat.
School children would be taught as to what the verse says.
It is meant to be for children as well as teachers.
It is meant to be a reminder.
It is meant to illuminate the school with a verse of God
The notion of HWGSMM going to school is well described in Bayan.
PaulHammond
Err - show me where the Bab talks about physical punishment in
THIS letter.
Show me where the Bab explains that he is talking about "the
teacher doesn't know his teacher" in THIS letter.
I STILL think the Bab is doing that "spiritual school of
which HWGWMM" is the illumination metaphor.
> The point is that Husayn-Ali got offended by the implication of the
> verse and came up with an irrelevant excuse.
Well - *I* don't think that this is a correct interpretation of what
Husayn Ali said about this tablet.
*I* think that you have gotten Husayn Ali all wrong here, and that
you cannot speak for him, and do not understand the
point that he was making.
You said "This is the only way to interpret what Baha'u'llah
said".
And I showed you another possible way that you could understand
it.
The point is that you don't like my understanding, and I think that
you got it wrong too.
> The point was not whether HWGSMM had inner knowledge or not. The point
> was that HWGSMM would have a childhood in the Bayanic era and that His
> parents not knowing Him would put him to a Primary School like every
> other parent.
No. I don't believe that the Bab was saying "HWGWMM is presently
unborn
or an infant".
I believe that he absolutely WAS making the point about HWGWMM
total spiritual authority here.
This was also the case with the Primal Point. His uncle
> put Him to Primary School.
>
> But Husayn-Ali picked the wrong end of the stick, did not answer the
> implication of the verse and answered the wrong question.
> The other main point you missed was that the whole thing about
> dismissing the people of Bayan was to make the point that HWGMM would
> wait for 19 years from the time of the next resurrection.
>
> Are you now clear on the origin of the Bayanic calendar?-
I'm clear that the website you run backs up your interpretation.
I'll have to take your word for it that other Bayani's agree with you
that it's currently the Babi year 155 or whatever.
Personally, I think counting from 1844 makes a whole lot more
sense - but then what do I care?
Neither system is ever going to become the world standard like
the Christian year zero...
Paul
Wahid Azal
thoroughly weakened, cut to minute size and is therefore hemorrhaging
to an assured and well-deserved (and long overdue) death, I am hereby
making the following offer to you haifan bahaim to unconditionally
surrender, walk away, and save whatever you have left of your personal
lives. I urge you to seriously consider this offer because if you
don't, whatever else shall unfold will be on your own heads
personally. Now that this demand has been spelled out, here are the 19
terms for your unconditional surrender:
1) The immediate dissolution of the ITC (international teaching
center), the written and unequivocal dismissal of all haifan bahaim
continental board of councillor members and their underlings
(auxilliary board members, etc), to be followed by the immediate
resignation without equivocation of all 9 members of the bogus and
illegal universal house of justice based in Haifa, Israel;
2) The immediate and unequivocal dissolution of the entire
infrastructure of the haifan bahaim administration and bureaucracy
globally - in every capacity and function - and the dismissal/
dissolution of every national spiritual assembly, regional council and
local assembly tied to your specific organization on the planet; as
well as the immediate and unequivocal suspension of all activities
under the name and rubric of the haifan bahaim organization;
3) The immediate and unequivocal dissolution and suspension of
all
Ruhi Institutes globally;
4) The immediate and unequivocal relinquishment and full
disclosure in
writing of all assets, chattels, investments, funds, stocks, bonds,
monies and otherwise belonging to the haifan bahaim organization in
Israel, North America, the United Arab Emirates, Europe and throughout
the rest of the world; whether immediately tied or tangentially;
5) The immediate and unequivocal disclosure in writing of all
subsidies and all monies and perquisities received by your
organization since 1910 - in any capacity whatsoever - by any
individual(s), entities or groups, governments or otherwise, not
immediately tied to your organization, and specifically from the state
of Israel since 1948;
6) The immediate financial and documentary auditing of your
entire
organization on all continents, beginning with the bahaim world centre
in Haifa, Palestine;
7) The immediate and unequivocal surrender of all legal and
official
documentation as well as letters and correspondences of your
organization from the dates of 1871 to present;
8) The immediate and unequivocal surrender of all files and
archives
kept in any policing or surveillance capacities by the haifan bahaim
organization whatsoever upon individuals, whether these be files
regarding rank-and-file members of the haifan bahaim cult or those put
out by it as well as those not;
9) The immediate and unequivocal surrender in writing of the full
names, addresses, duties and capacities of all those serving under
your Internet Committee based in the United States and spread out
throughout the globe as well as the full unequivocal disclosure of the
date of its establishment and any/all outside aid obtained;
10) The immediate and unequivocal surrender of the entirety of the
archives of all texts and source documents (as well as artefacts) of a
specifically scriptural and historical nature to a panel consisting of
members of the Bayani community, the Reform Baha'i movement, the
Orthodox Baha'i Communities - 1) Marangella and 2) Shoghomonian -, the
Baha'is Under the Provisions of the Covenant, ex-Baha'i academics of a
reputable nature such as Denis Maceoin as well as those such as
Margrit Warburg etc, and any others determined in consensus by the
Panel;
11) The immediate and unequivocal disclosure of the facts
regarding
the fate of the National Spiritual Assembly of Iran circa 1979 and a
complete explanation with documentation as to the reasons for the
conspicuous silence of the so-called universal house of justice in
world fora afterwards regarding the fate of this body;
12) The immediate and unequivocal release and publication of the
Will
and Testament of Shoghi Effendi to the worldwide Baha'i community;
13) The immediate and unequivocal and unhindered and unimpeded
return
of all documents, texts, scriptures, histories, papers and effects in
your possession belonging to one Mirza Yahya Nuri Subh-i-Azal, which
were illegally and fraudulently obtained by one Mirza Husayn 'Ali Nuri
Baha'u'llah in Baghdad and Edirne in the 1860s, to the Bayani
community;
14) The immediate and unequivocal return of all the properties of
Bahji to its rightful owners, namely, the descendents of Mirza
Muhammad 'Ali ibn al-Baha' and Mirza Badi'ullah ibn al-Baha';
15) The immediate arrest and extradition of one Hozhabr Yazdani to
Iran (or the World Court in the Hague) to stand trial for state
sanctioned and protected criminal activities on behalf of your
organization in Iran from the years 1953-1979;
16) The immediate and unequivocal disclosure in full regarding the
criminal hawala networks operated by members of the haifan bahaim
organization throughout Asia, the Middle East, South America, Europe,
North America and elsewhere, and an explanation with documentation
regarding the nature of such activities and especially the names,
addresses and capacities of those persons involved with these criminal
hawala networks;
17) The immediate and unequivocal disclosure of all documents and
papers regarding the unexplained murder of one Dan Jordan in New York
City in 1982 as well as the immediate and unequivocal disclosure of
all documents and papers regarding the suspicious murder of one Hedi
Ma'ani in New Zealand;
18) The immediate arrest and criminal prosecution of misters Peter
Khan, Alan Waters, Stephan Hall, Manijeh Rayhani, Robert C Henderson,
et al., including their various staff, helpers and agents;
19) The immediate opening of the fake and disputed shrine on Mt
Carmel
to an independent team of international scientific examiners expert in
forensic scientific analysis in a completely uninhibited scientific
determination involving the exhumation of the body claimed to be that
of Siyyid 'Ali Muhammad Shirazi, the Bab, and its free and unfettered
scientific determination as to whether this body in fact be that of
the person claimed;
a) No individuals either haifan bahaim or peripherally tied to
the
Baha'i religion (from any denomination) may serve on this team of
scientific forensic experts;
b) An independent and impartial team shall serve as an oversight
committee to the work of the scientific team in question which shall
report on a daily basis to the aforementioned panel above on the
status of the work;
c) This oversight committee itself shall be selected by a another
independent committee (which itself shall be elected by the Panel)
consisting of 13 individuals who shall vouch for the independence and
unassailability in the moral rectitude of the second committee;
These are the terms for your unconditional surrender, the terms of
which are absolutely non-negotiable. If you should meet them, well and
good. If not, we will force them on you either way. Note that if any
documents, papers, effects, texts or whatever either go missing or are
found damaged, you will be held personally liable and as such
prosecuted for criminal negligence.
These are the terms of your unconditional surrender. Meet them for
your own sakes. You have lost the war. We have won.
Wahid Azal
mash_ghasem
Wahid Azal wrote:
From SCI readers:
Y A W N.
Wahid Azal
mash_ghasem
Wahid Azal wrote:
To Dr. Choon Tank;
It seems your medication works for a wee the most. This sicko is back
again. Please try frontal lobotomy.
.
Death to Haifan Bahaism
dead man walking!
--
PaulHammond
wrote:
> Mash-Kundeh, take this to the bank and to whoever you want. You are a
> dead man walking!
>
WHAT! Are you threatening SOMEONE ELSE to a fight that you won't
bother showing up to?
And you spamming your cowardly terms of surrender all over the Iranian
newsgroup too!
Cluck, cluck, cluck Holy Chicken!
Paul
Viv
> On May 8, 7:35 am, Death to Haifan Bahaism <deathtobah...@gmail.com>
>
> And you spamming your cowardly terms of surrender all over the Iranian
> newsgroup too!
>
And getting the usual response from his beloved "own people" too!
The thing about Nima is he's such an equal-opportunity hater that he
puts real effort into making sure that _everyone_ thinks he's pathetic.
stevebl...@yahoo.com
> Err - show me where the Bab talks about physical punishment in
> THIS letter.
There is little point in me explaining to you where you go wrong when
you don't read what I write.
I quote from my earlier post: "This is clearly described in Bayan
where it prohibits punishing
children because the teacher does know his teacher."
Let me know if you need pointers.
I was hopping you would grasp the relationship here.
Your "reasons" for dismissing the fact that the school in the verse is
meant a physical school, were these:
- It is too long.
- It is difficult for children to understand.
The wall you erected based on the 'verse being too long to be hung'
has crumbled on you. Let me know if you need to see pictures of
Mosques, schools, homes, palaces, etc whose walls and ceilings are
covered with very long verses from Quran. These verses have
illuminated these sites. From plain bricks to sites with sanctity.
That is what illumination does.
Most people go into these building without attempting to read them,
because they have already read them elsewhere and/or they enjoy
passing through building blessed by those verses.
As for being too difficult, your argument is more of a "what else I
can come up with".
The children would be taught on the subject and meaning of the verse.
It makes children ask their teachers what is this all about? Therefore
the children as well as teachers remember every day that Bayanic
period will come to an end in its time and that they must be prepared
for it.
Now, I pointed you to the passage in Bayan hopping you understand that
it is a well understood case that HWGSMM would also attend the school
because His parents would not recognise him in His youth.
Now, for Husayn-Ali to come out and say: "we entered the school of God
while you were reclining .." is just irrelevant. Firstly we do know
that Husayn-Ali has made no claim to have been illiterate (like
prophet Muhammad) when he made his claim (whenever that was),
therefore he must have had schooling in one way or another.
And, by the way, thanks for admitting the simple point that 'of
course' Husayn-Ali as a Babai would have read Bayanic sources. You
were going to tell me where you saw it. Get that for me.
Second, I repeat, we do know from Bayan that it is well understood
that HWGSMM would attend school in His youth.
Therefore, by Mirza Husayn-Ali taking a swipe at Bayanis that "I was
in school when you were reclining .." does not in any way disprove the
fact that HWGSMM would attend the primary school in His youth and this
in no way would be degrading to His station.
>
> Show me where the Bab explains that he is talking about "the
> teacher doesn't know his teacher" in THIS letter.
Firstly, don't ask an invalid question. You WERE told where that
passage was, so there is no point in asking me such silly question.
Second, the author of the verse in question and the passage I quoted
you from Bayan are the same. It proves that there would be schooling
period for HWGSMM and that the verse in question to refer to a
physical primary school is in line with that.
>
> I STILL think the Bab is doing that "spiritual school of which HWGWMM" is the illumination metaphor.
You don't need to repeat to me your conviction in a Bahai apology
which I outlined in my first post in this thread. Bahais and yourself
refuse to see that:
1- The title is in a polite instructive mode. That is, it is
instructing for the tablet to illuminate the Primary School OF HWGSMM.
If the school is a spiritual one, which by the way has absolutely no
precedence in the Bayanic literature, then the commander is God and
the executor is God. It also has nothing to with progressive
revelations, you have confused yourself to the hell. The progressive
revelations is initiated by God for its creatures. It is not that God
has a special progressive training program for its prophets in
Heaven.
2- What illuminates this school is the tablet and it is an address to
HWGSMM. Now, to take the Bahai supposition which is also yours, would
mean that the tablet would illuminate a spiritual school, whatever
that is, in heaven. This is in fact blasphemy because it assumes that
this spiritual school in heave, whatever that is would illuminate it,
that is, its spiritual station was ordinary before that. Now, we can
say that about a primary school on earth but to apply it to a
'spiritual school' in heaven is in fact contradictory. The claim
defeats itself. It is like a theorem that when attempting to prove it,
it would actually prove to be false.
>
> > The point is that Husayn-Ali got offended by the implication of the
> > verse and came up with an irrelevant excuse.
>
> Well - *I* don't think that this is a correct interpretation of what
> Husayn Ali said about this tablet.
Yes it is. That Husayn-Ali "entered the school of God" has nothing to
do with the title of the tablet. It in no way disproves that HWGSMM
would attend the school in his youth as estimated in Bayan. Husayn-
Ali's defence that this must have been a 'divine school' because
otherwise he would not have needed to enter does not stand because we
know from Bayan that HWGSMM is estimated to spend time at school in
His youth.
>
> *I* think that you have gotten Husayn Ali all wrong here, and that
> you cannot speak for him, and do not understand the
> point that he was making.
Sure, I do. I could understand that even when I was reclining!
Here, we have a tablet that beginning from its title is damning to his
claim. What else he could come up with? He is saying, I didn't need to
be todler to have seen the tablet because I had seen it before it was
written. So, what was the point of the tablet? It was by God to
"God".
You need to understand that everything written is for the creatures
not for God Itself.
It is a bit like: "I knew it before it was written; and when I was
wrtiting it, I knew I had read it before, and I know it because I was
writing it myself only to read it later ....."
I think people in computer science have a good word for it: A nested
loop and usually results in a crash.
>
> You said "This is the only way to interpret what Baha'u'llah
> said".
>
> And I showed you another possible way that you ...
Nop!
Right at the very beginning. I outlined what Bahais claim (which is
also your claim) and you have added nothing to what I said, Bahais
claim.
> The point is that you don't like my understanding, and I think that
> you got it wrong too.
As I said, I said it at the front what Bahais say, and you have added
nothing to that.
You came up with "arguments" to defend those positions which are now
crubmbled on you.
And, that is the point. That you don't like mine was established a
year and half ago in my first encounter with you.
>
> > The point was not whether HWGSMM had inner knowledge or not. The point
> > was that HWGSMM would have a childhood in the Bayanic era and that His
> > parents not knowing Him would put him to a Primary School like every
> > other parent.
>
> No. I don't believe that the Bab was saying "HWGWMM is presently
> unborn
> or an infant".
That is the implication what is said in Bayan and in the title of that
tablet.
>
> I believe that he absolutely WAS making the point about HWGWMM
> total spiritual authority here.
Bravo!
How does that help the case for the school to be a spiritual one?
>
> This was also the case with the Primal Point. His uncle
>
> > put Him to Primary School.
>
> > But Husayn-Ali picked the wrong end of the stick, did not answer the
> > implication of the verse and answered the wrong question.
> > The other main point you missed was that the whole thing about
> > dismissing the people of Bayan was to make the point that HWGMM would
> > wait for 19 years from the time of the next resurrection.
>
> > Are you now clear on the origin of the Bayanic calendar?-
>
> I'm clear that the website you run backs up your interpretation.
>
> I'll have to take your word for it that other Bayani's agree with you
> that it's currently the Babi year 155 or whatever.
You don't need to. Look up the source in 5 Shan or get someone to
verify it for you.
If that conformed the origin of the Bayanic calendar, then you are
done.
>
> Personally, I think counting from 1844 makes a whole lot more
> sense - but then what do I care?
Yes, and a bit of a fact that you are not the one with say, unless you
are having some claim here!
But it does appear to make sense to you that the origin of the Bahai
calendar commences from two dispensations before it. It is like the
Christian calendar to have originated from even before the time of
Moses. Makes a whole lot of sense, doesn't it?
>
> Neither system is ever going to become the world standard like
> the Christian year zero...
I'm overwhelmed!
All this was just the title.
As I said, Bahais use this tablet to convince themselves that
Mustaghath was reduced to 19 years when the tablet clearly tells us
that HWGSMM would wait for 19 years in the next resurrection, that is
the resurrection of Bayan. And, I have given passages from Bayan what
resurrection means.
Steve
stevebl...@yahoo.com
Whether Nima's invitation eventuates or not is one thing.
But to ask the leaders of this fake prophet to dissolve their setup
whilst they have time to make up for it is a legitimate advice.
Asparagus
<stevebl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1178620384....@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
he is not asking for a dissolution
he is asking for surrender
there is a difference they are not defeated so surrender seems a little bit
unrealistic we are being kind here in case you did not realise it just for
your ears only we actually think he has lost contact with reality in asking
for a surrender you and he are too few to have surrounded the baha'is and
battered them into submission now if you had done that terms of surrender
might just look realistic but you have not and they do not
back to the drawing board
stevebl...@yahoo.com
> <steveblomber...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1178620384....@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 8, 7:02 pm, Viv <viv_jacob...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> >> On 8 May, 09:57, PaulHammond <pahamm...@onetel.net.uk> wrote:
>
> >> > On May 8, 7:35 am, Death to Haifan Bahaism <deathtobah...@gmail.com>
> >> > wrote: (the usual nonsense).
>
> >> > And you spamming your cowardly terms of surrender all over the Iranian
> >> > newsgroup too!
>
> >> And getting the usual response from his beloved "own people" too!
>
> >> The thing about Nima is he's such an equal-opportunity hater that he
> >> puts real effort into making sure that _everyone_ thinks he's pathetic.
>
> > Whether Nima's invitation eventuates or not is one thing.
> > But to ask the leaders of this fake prophet to dissolve their setup
> > whilst they have time to make up for it is a legitimate advice.
>
> he is not asking for a dissolution
Yes he did:
"The immediate and unequivocal dissolution of the entire
infrastructure of the haifan bahaim administration and bureaucracy
globally - "
>
> he is asking for surrender
Ok, let them have a face.
Nima would be also happy with 'dissolution'.
>
> there is a difference they are not defeated so surrender seems a little bit
> unrealistic
What are you on about?
Nima believes Bahaism was a failure at its inception.
You were one of their fighters and we saw how your white flag
everywhere without putting up any fight at all. You did a lot of
irrelevant noise however hiding behind other "fighters".
> we are being kind here
So, what the f..k were you on about when you denied you were a Bahai.
If not, why are you taking this on yourlf(ves).
> in case you did not realise
I did realize it as soon as you presented yourself.
> it just for
> your ears only we actually think he has lost contact with reality
That is a lot of thinking. He would say the same thing about you.
> in asking
> for a surrender you and he are too few to have surrounded the baha'is and
> battered them into submission
You are wrong! Nima and I did nothing to force Bahaism to surrender.
Bahaism was ruled as a fake religion as soon as Husayn-Ali revolted
against the commander of the faith of Bayan.
> now if you had done that terms of surrender
> might just look realistic but you have not and they do not
The terms of surrender have always been there. Nima reminded you of
it.
Abraxas
thoroughly weakened, cut to minute size and is therefore hemorrhaging
to an assured and well-deserved (and long overdue) death, I am hereby
making the following offer to you haifan bahaim to unconditionally
surrender, walk away, and save whatever you have left of your personal
lives. I urge you to seriously consider this offer because if you
don't, whatever else shall unfold will be on your own heads
personally. Now that this demand has been spelled out, here are the 19
terms for your unconditional surrender:
1) The immediate dissolution of the ITC (international teaching
center), the written and unequivocal dismissal of all haifan bahaim
continental board of councillor members and their underlings
(auxilliary board members, etc), to be followed by the immediate
resignation without equivocation of all 9 members of the bogus and
illegal universal house of justice based in Haifa, Israel;
2) The immediate and unequivocal dissolution of the entire
infrastructure of the haifan bahaim administration and bureaucracy
Asparagus
<stevebl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1178678125.8...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>> > Whether Nima's invitation eventuates or not is one thing.
>> > But to ask the leaders of this fake prophet to dissolve their setup
>> > whilst they have time to make up for it is a legitimate advice.
>>
>> he is not asking for a dissolution
>
> Yes he did:
> "The immediate and unequivocal dissolution of the entire
> infrastructure of the haifan bahaim administration and bureaucracy
> globally - "
>
>>
>> he is asking for surrender
stephanie dearest do learn to read before opening your mouth and putting
your foot right into it
the demand was as the heading states for surrender not dissolution.
>> there is a difference they are not defeated so surrender seems a little
>> bit
>> unrealistic
> What are you on about?
indeed you do have difficulty in understanding fairly basic concepts
> Nima believes Bahaism was a failure at its inception.
he is quite entitled to believe that others do not agree with him
baha'is do not agree with him and there are more of them than there are of
you and him
nobody else cares
> You were one of their fighters and we saw how your white flag
> everywhere without putting up any fight at all. You did a lot of
> irrelevant noise however hiding behind other "fighters".
once again you display this problem of being unable to distinguish between
fact and your own little foibles
we are not baha'is and nothing you say can alter that fact
>> we are being kind here
> So, what the f..k were you on about when you denied you were a Bahai.
telling the truth not that you can recognise it
we detest loathesome little assholes like you and abraxasshole for the fact
that you are nasty liars and extremely prejudiced people who ignorantly
insist upon your own distorted presentations of what you wrongly perceive as
verity
> If not, why are you taking this on yourlf(ves).
for fun for enjoyment and for human dignity the right to argue without being
threatened or insulted by vacuous morons
>> in asking
>> for a surrender you and he are too few to have surrounded the baha'is and
>> battered them into submission
> You are wrong! Nima and I did nothing to force Bahaism to surrender.
right for one and at long last hence the demand for surrender looks a tad
optimistic
> Bahaism was ruled as a fake religion as soon as Husayn-Ali revolted
> against the commander of the faith of Bayan.
that is your version of events and not one that is universally accepted
>> now if you had done that terms of surrender
>> might just look realistic but you have not and they do not
>
> The terms of surrender have always been there. Nima reminded you of
> it.
this is the first we have seen of them
we must admit they caused an almighty fit of giggles but that soon subsided
as we realised with sadness that abraxasshole has finally flipped his lid
putting it crudely though effectively abraxasshole will have an enjoyable
oral sex encounter with a shark before he will impose surrender terms on the
baha'is
Wahid Azal
thoroughly weakened, cut to minute size and is therefore hemorrhaging
to an assured and well-deserved (and long overdue) death, I am hereby
making the following offer to you haifan bahaim to unconditionally
surrender, walk away, and save whatever you have left of your personal
lives. I urge you to seriously consider this offer because if you
don't, whatever else shall unfold will be on your own heads
personally. Now that this demand has been spelled out, here are the 19
terms for your unconditional surrender:
1) The immediate dissolution of the ITC (international teaching
center), the written and unequivocal dismissal of all haifan bahaim
continental board of councillor members and their underlings
(auxilliary board members, etc), to be followed by the immediate
resignation without equivocation of all 9 members of the bogus and
illegal universal house of justice based in Haifa, Israel;
2) The immediate and unequivocal dissolution of the entire
infrastructure of the haifan bahaim administration and bureaucracy
Wahid Azal
> putting it crudely though effectively abraxasshole will have an enjoyable
> oral sex encounter with a shark before he will impose surrender terms on the
> baha'is
LOL! You cultists are doing a splendid job beginning the process of
facilitation for the implimentation yourselves. Don't worry, I'll be
feeding you all to the sharks - like I have been - and the oral sex
encounter with sharks is what you yourselves have been experiencing,
ergo Henderson, Chiaccherri, Payam Shoghi and soon Fariborz Sahba as
well. BTW I hear Indian prison cells can accomodate Cobras. Fariborz
Sahba needs to start practicing with Coke bottles because very soon
Reptiles will be all over his anal cavity in the Indian prison cell
he'll be going to.
W
Now that the Whore of Babylon (the haifan bahaim cult) has been
thoroughly weakened, cut to minute size and is therefore hemorrhaging
to an assured and well-deserved (and long overdue) death, I am hereby
making the following offer to you haifan bahaim to unconditionally
surrender, walk away, and save whatever you have left of your personal
lives. I urge you to seriously consider this offer because if you
don't, whatever else shall unfold will be on your own heads
personally. Now that this demand has been spelled out, here are the 19
terms for your unconditional surrender:
1) The immediate dissolution of the ITC (international teaching
center), the written and unequivocal dismissal of all haifan bahaim
continental board of councillor members and their underlings
(auxilliary board members, etc), to be followed by the immediate
resignation without equivocation of all 9 members of the bogus and
illegal universal house of justice based in Haifa, Israel;
2) The immediate and unequivocal dissolution of the entire
infrastructure of the haifan bahaim administration and bureaucracy
Asparagus
"Wahid Azal" <wahid...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1178842746.0...@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> On May 11, 9:42 am, "Asparagus" <k...@spimspam.com> wrote:
>
>> putting it crudely though effectively abraxasshole will have an enjoyable
>> oral sex encounter with a shark before he will impose surrender terms on
>> the
>> baha'is
>
> LOL! You cultists are doing a splendid job beginning the process of
> facilitation for the implimentation yourselves.
we were wondering when ruhi would move in to modify your claims that baha'i
was on its kness and in need of surrendering to you
are all iranians as stupid as you
we sincerely hope not
Death to Haifan Bahaism
other right now __over ruhi__. Duh!
W
p.s. When they made stupid as stupid does, dumb as doorknob fools like
this assintheguts, they broke the mold.
--
Deev
blessed with extra ordinary talents and intelligence.
Nima is not Iranian, he is not of this planet
"Asparagus" <ki...@spimspam.com> wrote in message
news:wPCdnRBNV_90Jt7b...@bt.com...
Death to Haifan Bahaism
> The prohet of the Bahai faith was Iranian, his son indicates Iranians are
> blessed with extra ordinary talents and intelligence.
What do you care about Iranians, Arab?
--