France--- on the Brink of a Muslim Revolution?
Robert Arvay
A group of rap musicians faces an unusual showdown with the government
over lyrics that officials say threaten French police and sympathize
with Palestinian suicide bombers.
Interior Minister Nicholas Sarkozy, who last year introduced a law
that made insulting a police officer a crime punishable by two years
in jail, announced that he would bring charges against the Parisian
rap group Sniper for tunes that he says are anti-Semitic, racist and
insulting.
"Those who do not respect the rules of the Republic … will be
taken to court," Sarkozy told France's parliament last week.
Sniper, made up of three Parisians of North African origin and a
fourth from Reunion, a French island off the coast of Madagascar,
denied that their music had anything to do with anti-Semitism or
racism.
"Music in general, ours in particular, is composed of strong images
… (and) is not to be taken at face value," the group said in a
statement.
The crackdown on the lyrics comes at a time of growing concern about
France's failure to integrate its large North African immigrant
communities, and a rise in anti-Semitic incidents blamed on anger
among French Muslims over Israel's harsh treatment of Palestinians.
After an attack on a Jewish school annex on Saturday, French President
Jacques Chirac this week established a commission to investigate the
"new anti-Semitism" that analysts attribute to the growing alienation
of Europe's largest Muslim population. No one was hurt in the attack
and no suspects have been arrested.
Impoverished, unemployed and victimized by discrimination, many in
these immigrant communities feel deeply hostile to French society. The
young rappers, whose music catches the angry edge of their American
counterparts, say their lyrics merely reflect life in the banlieues -
the grim housing projects that ring France's urban centers - and the
reality of the Muslim political consciousness in Europe.
"What would do if they killed your father and destroyed your house?"
asks the lyric of the song entitled "Stone Thrower."
"Palestinians in streets/Israelis in the buses.
"Evil for evil/Avenge your own.
"To blow yourself up is resistance."
"The song is not inciting young people to violence," said Clovis
Carime, a rap enthusiast who works in a Paris music store. "The
musicians don't take sides in the song. They are reflecting what's
happening in Israel - at least that's the way young people here see
it."
"Stone Thrower" is from Sniper's second CD, which has sold more than
250,000 copies on Warner Music's East West label, a huge number by
French standards.
For weeks, Sniper's concerts have been dogged by protesters from
far-right nationalist groups. A number of performances have been
canceled. But in the tight world of rap music, where American artists
have long been the trend-setters, running afoul of the establishment
is considered a marketing asset.
Sarkozy, the interior minister, first came to national prominence last
year when he introduced a series of tough measures aimed at youths in
the housing projects.
In addition to the law that made it a crime to insult a police
officer, another law carried a two-month jail sentence for loitering
in the communal areas of the housing projects.
Civil rights activists accused Sarkozy of "criminalizing the poor" but
opinion polls showed that his crackdown enjoyed broad public support.
In addition to the commission on anti-Semitism, the government this
week also announced a five-year plan to rejuvenate 160 of France's
most impoverished housing projects.
Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin said the aim was to "smash the
ghettos" of social deprivation where most of France's immigrants live.
Susan Maneck
Last I heard Muslims don't approve of rap.
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st
Paul Hammond
>
> "What would do if they killed your father and destroyed your house?"
> asks the lyric of the song entitled "Stone Thrower."
>
This is a good question, Robert. What WOULD you do?
>
> "Stone Thrower" is from Sniper's second CD, which has sold more than
> 250,000 copies on Warner Music's East West label, a huge number by
> French standards.
>
> For weeks, Sniper's concerts have been dogged by protesters from
> far-right nationalist groups.
Le-Pen and his neo-nazis??
A number of performances have been
> canceled. But in the tight world of rap music, where American artists
> have long been the trend-setters, running afoul of the establishment
> is considered a marketing asset.
> Sarkozy, the interior minister, first came to national prominence last
> year when he introduced a series of tough measures aimed at youths in
> the housing projects.
>
Sounds just like David Blunkett.
> In addition to the law that made it a crime to insult a police
> officer, another law carried a two-month jail sentence for loitering
> in the communal areas of the housing projects.
>
> Civil rights activists accused Sarkozy of "criminalizing the poor" but
> opinion polls showed that his crackdown enjoyed broad public support.
>
Sounds just like Michael Howard.
> In addition to the commission on anti-Semitism, the government this
> week also announced a five-year plan to rejuvenate 160 of France's
> most impoverished housing projects.
>
> Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin said the aim was to "smash the
> ghettos" of social deprivation where most of France's immigrants live.
Blimey - I thought it was still Jospin. When did that happen?
Paul
Robert Arvay
> >
> > "What would do if they killed your father and destroyed your house?"
> > asks the lyric of the song entitled "Stone Thrower."
> >
>
> This is a good question, Robert. What WOULD you do?
>
> >
many innocent Israeli children as possible, even to the point of
sending forth my own children strapped with bombs. I would not ask
why they had killed my father or destroyed my house. I would not
care.
I would not seek to better myself or my family.
I would not question those of my leaders who took money intended by
donors to educate me, to help me start a business and to gain economic
prosperity and political power--- took that money and aggrandized
themselves--- used it to buy luxuries for their personal use and bombs
to strap to my child--- I would question nothing except how to kill
more Israelis.
Doing all that, Paul, I would desperately need someone like you,
someone educated, someone with a more rational perspective---- someone
who could devise a careful plan to free me from my self-destructive
hatred, and break the cycle of violence which condemns me to misery
and my children to death.
But would you meet that need, Paul? Or would you just argue in favor
of continuing the futile struggle by means which can never succeed?
What WOULD you do?
Dermod Ryder
"Robert Arvay" <Rober...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:e247d7b6.03120...@posting.google.com...
> I would probably act with unreasoning vengeance, and seek to kill as
> many innocent Israeli children as possible, even to the point of
> sending forth my own children strapped with bombs. I would not ask
> why they had killed my father or destroyed my house. I would not
> care.
> I would not seek to better myself or my family.
> I would not question those of my leaders who took money intended by
> donors to educate me, to help me start a business and to gain economic
> prosperity and political power--- took that money and aggrandized
> themselves--- used it to buy luxuries for their personal use and bombs
> to strap to my child--- I would question nothing except how to kill
> more Israelis.
> Doing all that, Paul, I would desperately need someone like you,
> someone educated, someone with a more rational perspective---- someone
> who could devise a careful plan to free me from my self-destructive
> hatred, and break the cycle of violence which condemns me to misery
> and my children to death.
> But would you meet that need, Paul? Or would you just argue in favor
> of continuing the futile struggle by means which can never succeed?
>
> What WOULD you do?
Well! You could re-elect George Dubya Shrub.
Paul Hammond
I see you have been thinking about as hard as you normally
do about these issues.
Still, you've already decided haven't you? Israel GOOD,
Palestine BAD. USA GOOD, Iraqi BAD.
Simple when you see things in black and white, isn't it??
Paul
Robert Arvay
>
> do about these issues.
>
> Still, you've already decided haven't you? Israel GOOD,
> Palestine BAD. USA GOOD, Iraqi BAD.
>
> Simple when you see things in black and white, isn't it??
>
> Paul
Paul, if you look at my statement and your reply--- thoughtfully---
you may come to the conclusion that your aversion to clarity may be
what is "simple."
The whole point of the thought process is to discern order from
disorder.
My comments were not simplistic. They recognize the injustices
committed against the Palestinians. They advocate not further
injustice, but rather, a strengthening of the Palestinian position
through economic and political justice. I also recognize that
Palestinian people are victimized not only by external forces, but
internal ones as well. And before they can ever hope to deal with the
external, they must first resolve their internal crises.
But you'd rather they just hurl stones?
Paul Hammond
I'd rather they didn't get shot by Israeli sub-machine
guns for hurling stones.
Irish teens hurl stones too, but the British Army don't
shoot them. Maybe that's why Norn Ireland is in a
much better state that Israel and the Occupied Territories
today.
Paul
Robert Arvay
sma...@aol.com (Susan Maneck ) wrote in message news:<20031207202436...@mb-m06.aol.com>...
> And this indicates movement towards an Islamic revolution how?
From the Jerusalem Post:
...an officially-commissioned study by the European Union (EU) which
became notorious in recent weeks when the EU itself quashed the
104-page draft version. ..."because the study concluded Muslims and
pro-Palestinian groups were behind many of the incidents [of
anti-Jewish violence] it examined." This focus on Muslim and
pro-Palestinian perpetrators, the Financial Times went on, "was judged
inflammatory."
..."The decision not to publish was a political decision." ... the
draft study – titled "Manifestations of anti-Semitism in the
European Union" and now released by the EU itself, though with a
disclaimer – confirms the historic change in the locus of
anti-Jewish sentiments and actions.
...the study hammers home the key role of Muslims in forwarding
anti-Semitism:
...
The problem includes violent attacks:
Physical attacks on Jews and the desecration and destruction of
synagogues were acts often committed by young Muslim perpetrators in
the monitoring period. Many of these attacks occurred either during or
after pro-Palestinian demonstrations, which were also used by radical
Islamists for hurling verbal abuse. In addition, radical Islamist
circles were responsible for placing anti-Semitic propaganda on the
Internet and in Arab-language media.
Observers point to an ‘increasingly blatant anti-Semitic Arab
and Muslim media ‘ including audiotapes and sermons, in which
the call is not only made to join the struggle against Israel but also
against Jews across the world.
In many instances, this aggression is connected to anti-Zionism:
...
Of the EU's then-15 member states, four stand out for their deeper
problems:
A group of countries was identified with rather severe anti-Semitic
incidents. Here, France, Belgium, the Netherlands and the UK have to
be mentioned. They witnessed numerous physical attacks and insults
directed against Jews and vandalism of Jewish institutions
(synagogues, shops, cemeteries). In these countries the violent
attacks on Jews and/or synagogues were reported to be committed often
by members of the Muslim-Arab minority, frequently youths.
...
This study and its attempted suppression point to two important facts:
the unpleasant reality that exists on the streets of Europe and the
EU's deep reluctance to face that reality.
Neither of these facts is new; this author wrote back in 1992 that for
world Jewry, "Muslim anti-Semitism is an increasing problem, and in
large part this has to do with the ever-growing population of Muslims
in the West;" and the EU's unwillingness to confront the pattern of
anti-Jewish hostility emerging from Muslim religious, media, and
educational institutions is also decades old.
Unless Europeans find the strength forthrightly to address this
problem – and all indicators suggest that is unlikely –
there is reason to expect a general Jewish exodus from Europe, perhaps
along the lines of the general Jewish exodus from Muslim countries a
half century ago.
Paul Hammond
>
> sma...@aol.com (Susan Maneck ) wrote in message news:<20031207202436...@mb-m06.aol.com>...
> > And this indicates movement towards an Islamic revolution how?
>
> From the Jerusalem Post:
>
You're still quoting that crap?
I'm sorry, but this has nothing to do with the thread you
started under another topic entirely.
Paul
Susan Maneck
>
>From the Jerusalem Post:
>"because the study concluded Muslims and
>pro-Palestinian groups were behind many of the incidents [of
>anti-Jewish violence] it examined."
Must I once again point out that pro-Palestinian groups and Muslims are
different things? The American Friends Service Committee is pro-Palestinian but
last I heard they were Quakers not Muslims.
But are you saying that this Rap group was part of the EU study?
>Physical attacks on Jews and the desecration and destruction of
>synagogues were acts often committed by young Muslim perpetrators in
>the monitoring period.
And this was tied into the rap group in question how?
Robert Arvay
paha...@onetel.net.uk (Paul Hammond) wrote in message news:<c977f97b.0312...@posting.google.com>...
>
> I'm sorry, but this has nothing to do with the thread you
> started under another topic entirely.
>
Don't be sorry. I was just providing documentation in response to Dr
Susan's comment.
Robert Arvay
paha...@onetel.net.uk (Paul Hammond) wrote in message news:<c977f97b.03121...@posting.google.com>...
> Rober...@msn.com (Robert Arvay) wrote in message news:<e247d7b6.03121...@posting.google.com>...
> >
> > But you'd rather they just hurl stones?
>
> I'd rather they didn't get shot by Israeli sub-machine
> guns for hurling stones.
> Irish teens hurl stones too, but the British Army don't
> shoot them. Maybe that's why Norn Ireland is in a
> much better state that Israel and the Occupied Territories
> today.
Okay, I should have known.
Very well, then. Substitute strapping on bombs for hurling stones,
and you get my drift.
And I get yours.
reli...@yahoo.com
> news:<c977f97b.03121...@posting.google.com>...
>> Rober...@msn.com (Robert Arvay) wrote in message
>> news:<e247d7b6.03121...@posting.google.com>...
>>>
>>> But you'd rather they just hurl stones?
>>
> I'd rather they didn't get shot by Israeli sub-machine
> guns for hurling stones. Irish teens hurl stones too, but the British Army
> don't shoot them.
The British army and the Police did shoot and killed 17 with plastic
and rubber bullets during the Northern Ireland troubles........Errol
http://www.cielen.net/hotf/free/free06.htm
Paul Hammond
> > paha...@onetel.net.uk (Paul Hammond) wrote in message
> > news:<c977f97b.03121...@posting.google.com>...
> >> Rober...@msn.com (Robert Arvay) wrote in message
> >> news:<e247d7b6.03121...@posting.google.com>...
> >>>
> >>> But you'd rather they just hurl stones?
> >>
> > I'd rather they didn't get shot by Israeli sub-machine
> > guns for hurling stones. Irish teens hurl stones too, but the British Army
> > don't shoot them.
>
> The British army and the Police did shoot and killed 17 with plastic
> and rubber bullets during the Northern Ireland troubles........Errol
> http://www.cielen.net/hotf/free/free06.htm
>
You use rubber bullets in sub-machineguns do you, gobshite?
Rubber bullets are the last resort of crowd control by
civil police forces. They are not a weapon of war.
By contrast, the Israelis send their army in against
teenage and younger stone-throwers and kill them with
actual *metal* bullets.
When you haven't got anything sensible to say, gobshite,
maybe you'd just better zip it, okay?
Paul
Paul Hammond
> Greetings;
>
> paha...@onetel.net.uk (Paul Hammond) wrote in message news:<c977f97b.03121...@posting.google.com>...
> > Rober...@msn.com (Robert Arvay) wrote in message news:<e247d7b6.03121...@posting.google.com>...
> > >
> > > But you'd rather they just hurl stones?
> >
> > I'd rather they didn't get shot by Israeli sub-machine
> > guns for hurling stones.
> > Irish teens hurl stones too, but the British Army don't
> > shoot them. Maybe that's why Norn Ireland is in a
> > much better state that Israel and the Occupied Territories
> > today.
>
> Okay, I should have known.
> Very well, then. Substitute strapping on bombs for hurling stones,
> and you get my drift.
> And I get yours.
The rap song we were talking about was called "Stone
Thrower", or have I missed something here?
Bombs need a different approach to stones, or are you
unable to tell the difference?
Paul
reli...@yahoo.com
Hammond at paha...@onetel.net.uk wrote on 13/12/03 4:58 am:
> reli...@yahoo.com wrote in message
> news:<a38fb763.03121...@posting.google.com>...
>>> paha...@onetel.net.uk (Paul Hammond) wrote in message
>>> news:<c977f97b.03121...@posting.google.com>...
>>>> Rober...@msn.com (Robert Arvay) wrote in message
>>>> news:<e247d7b6.03121...@posting.google.com>...
>>>>>
>>>>> But you'd rather they just hurl stones?
>>>>
>>> I'd rather they didn't get shot by Israeli sub-machine
>>> guns for hurling stones. Irish teens hurl stones too, but the
British Army
>>> don't shoot them.
>>
>> The British army and the Police did shoot and killed 17 with
plastic
>> and rubber bullets during the Northern Ireland
troubles........Errol
>> http://www.cielen.net/hotf/free/free06.htm
>>
>
> You use rubber bullets in sub-machineguns do you, gobshite?
>
> Rubber bullets are the last resort of crowd control by
> civil police forces. They are not a weapon of war.
>
> By contrast, the Israelis send their army in against
> teenage and younger stone-throwers and kill them with
> actual *metal* bullets.
>
> When you haven't got anything sensible to say, gobshite,
> maybe you'd just better zip it, okay?
You said "Irish teens hurl stones too, but the British Army
don't shoot them." The evidence I provided is proof "THE BRITISH ARMY
DID SHOOT" Irish Teens. Inclosed are the 17 victims ( the youngest was
10) who died having been *SHOT* by the British Army and the police.
Are you so stupid to not understand the word
"SHOOT"?...................Errol
17 VICTIMS OF PLASTIC AND RUBBER BULLETS
* Frank Rowntree, 11, of west Belfast, died four days after being
struck by an allegedly doctored rubber bullet in April 1972 fired by a
member of the British army. His inquest heard a British army
representative admit he did not know at what distance it was
permissable to fire a rubber bullet gun or at which part of the body
it should be aimed.
* Tobias Molloy, 18-year-old Strabane Republican, killed by a
rubber bullet fired by a soldier at the Camels Hump border crossing in
July 1972. Rubber bullets were fired at youths attending his funeral.
* Thomas Friel, 21, of Derry city, died in May 1973, five days
after being struck on the head by a rubber bullet as he returned home
after a night out.
* Stephan Geddis, 10, of west Belfast, died in August 1975, two
days after being struck on the head by a rubber bullet.
* Brian Stewart, 13, of Turf Lodge, Belfast, died in hospital six
days after he was struck by a British army plastic bullet yards from
his home. His inquest heard that the soldier did not know the rules
governing use of baton rounds.
* Michael Donnelly, 21, of Falls Road, Belfast, a dedicated social
worker killed in Leeson Street in August 1980. No riot was in
progress. The high court in Belfast heard the plastic bullet was fired
"at a time when it was uncalled for and unjustified".
* Paul Whitters, 15, Derry city, died in April 1981, 10 days after
being struck on the head by a plastic bullet fired by the RUC.
* Julie Livingstone, 14, of Lenadoon estate, west Belfast, struck
by a plastic bullet as she returned from a shop near her home in may
1981 and died the next day. Witnesses said rioting in the area began
AFTER she was shot.
* Carol Ann Kelly, 12, of Twinbrook, west Belfast, was struck by a
plastic bullet near her home in May 1981 and died two days later. She,
too, was returning from a store and was carrying a carton of milk when
she was shot.
* Henry Duffy, 45, from Creggan, Derry city, was hit on the head
and chest in the early morning of May 22, 1981, and died the same day.
* Nora McCabe, 30, struck by a plastic bullet fired from an RUC
Land Rover at 7.45 one morning in July 1981 and died next day. An RUC
superintendent, a front seat passenger in the vehicle, told an inquest
no shot was fired. A Canadian television crew provided footage to
prove he had committed perjury. He was later promoted.
* Peter Doherty, 33, of Divis Flats, west Belfast, was standing in
his kitchen in July 1981 when British Marine Commandos fired a plastic
bullet through the window, striking him on the head. He died seven
days later.
* Peter McGuiness, 41, of Shore Road, north Belfast, died minutes
after being hit by a plastic bullet in his front garden in August
1981.
* Stephen McConomy, 11, Derry cuty, died three days after being hit
by a plastic bullet in April 1982. Witnesses said Stephen was standing
with his hands in his pockets when he was struck from a distance of 17
feet.
* John Downes, 23, from Andersonstown, west Belfast, killed in the
most public fashion when he was struck on the chest at point blank
range by an RUC plastic bullet in front of television cameras at a
Republican rally.
* Keith White, 20, from Mourneview estate, Lurgan, died two weeks
after being struck on the head by a plastic bullet at an Apprentice
Boys parade in Portadown in March 1986.
* Seamus Duffy, 15, of Oldpark, north Belfast, was struck in the
rib cage as he ran from RUC vehicles in the New Lodge area in August
1989. He died shortly afterwards.
http://www.cielen.net/hotf/free/free06.htm
>
> Paul
reli...@yahoo.com
Hammond at paha...@onetel.net.uk wrote on 13/12/03 4:58 am:
> Rubber bullets are the last resort of crowd control by
> civil police forces. They are not a weapon of war.
Try and tell that to the families of some of these 17 victims who were
SHOT by the British Army during their war in Northern Ireland
recently....Errol
Paul Hammond
> Hammond at paha...@onetel.net.uk wrote on 13/12/03 4:58 am:
>
> > Rubber bullets are the last resort of crowd control by
> > civil police forces. They are not a weapon of war.
>
> Try and tell that to the families of some of these 17 victims who were
> SHOT by the British Army during their war in Northern Ireland
> recently....Errol
>
Like I said, gobshite, if you ever have nothing of value to
add to a conversation, butt out of it.
Rubber bullets are the last resort of crowd control, as I've
said, and when someone dies because they were fired from
too close (and they shouldn't be fired *at* people
anyway) it is an accident.
Not something one can say of sub-machine gun fire in Palestine.
Look again at what you have posted. This is 17 people dying
over the course of about 17 years. That's about 1 per year.
I expect you don't even need to go to the province to find
such stats - do you know how many demonstrators have died
on the mainland in a comparable time period?
Even a dumb ganch like you ought to be able to spot the
difference between crowd control mistakes and firing
sub-machine guns at Palestinian stone throwers.
Paul
Pat Kohli
Paul Hammond wrote:
I thought he might be intentionally corroborating your story. If, over the years of this globally
infamous conflict, 17 people had been killed by rubber bullets, though it is regretable and
tragic, it contrasts very favorably with the number of Palestinians killed by the IDF and their
proxies over the past 35 years, a number to range in the thousands, likely the high thousands,
possibly tens of thousands.
Then, contextualizing, it occurred to me that his statement, considered in his own perspective,
might be a misguided attempt to contradict, rather than corroborate.
Best wishes!
- Pat
kohli at ameritel.net
Pat Kohli
reli...@yahoo.com wrote:
It looks like the Army and police haven't killed anyone in NI with rubber
bullets in over a decade. This is quite a contrast with the IDF and the
Palestinian nationalists.
Pat Kohli
reli...@yahoo.com wrote:
> in article c977f97b.03121...@posting.google.com, Paul
> Hammond at paha...@onetel.net.uk wrote on 13/12/03 4:58 am:
>
> > Rubber bullets are the last resort of crowd control by
> > civil police forces. They are not a weapon of war.
>
> Try and tell that to the families of some of these 17 victims who were
> SHOT by the British Army during their war in Northern Ireland
> recently....Errol
>
None of these appear to be recent. Most of them date back to the 1970s,
1980 and 1981. The last two were in 1986 and then 1989. This is a
signficant contrast with the use of force by the IDF in the occupied
territories in the past three years. Even if we do suppose these killings
were all in the past three years, one is still comparing the dozen to the
thousand, a whole different scale.
Best wishes!
- Pat
kohli at ameritel.net
>
Paul Hammond
I don't recall the exact figures, but I remember hearing that
thousands of people did get killed over the course of 30 years
in the "troubles", as the Irish violence is euphemistically
termed over here.
I imagine that these 17 people who have been shot by rubber
bullets by the British Army doing police duty in the province
make up a small percentage of the victims of the Troubles.
IIRC, most people were killed by one or other set of
paramilitaries - I *think* that most people were killed
by the IRA (and that of course includes them murdering
people on their own side who they consider to have
transgressed), closely followed by victims of the UDA,
a protestant paramilitary.
Civilians have, of course, been killed by British soldiers
at checkpoints with *real* bullets - I recall a case from
a few years back where a couple of young people were shot
at a checkpoint, because the soldier thought someone in
the car was reaching for a gun - when the bodies were
examined later, they turned out to be unarmed, and not
members of any sectarian group - a tragedy. Also, my
friend from Ballymena, who I shared an office with in
Liverpool, had a friend from school shot when she was
a teenager under similar circumstances.
But, the contrast with the Palestinian situation is that
the British never sent their army in to flatten Belfast,
or Derry/Londonderry, or any percieved stronghold of
the IRA, and the British never presumed to dictate to
the IRA which of their leaders they would and wouldn't
deal with, although for a time Mrs Thatcher's government
did pass a law which prevented Gerry Adam's voice from
being heard on TV.
Thankfully, painstaking negotiations *did* lead us to
the present point, where the IRA have been on ceasefire
for nearly a decade, and the recent controversies were
about the IRA destroying a whole bunch of weapons, but
the leader of the UUP, David Trimble, not being satisfied
because apparently he could not be given exact details
of which weapons the IRA were willing to have destroyed
(a bad miscalcuation it seems, since in the November
elections his party became the minority unionist party,
ceding priority to Ian Paisley's DUP, a party which
opposes the whole Good Friday agreement on which
the power sharing arrangements are based) - but the
difference with Israel is that the bombings have
stopped, and there is at least a framework in which
progress can be made, whatever local difficulties
the process is currently experiencing because of
the electors choosing to put the extremists in
command right now.
Paul
Dermod Ryder
> None of these appear to be recent. Most of them date back to the 1970s,
> 1980 and 1981. The last two were in 1986 and then 1989. This is a
> signficant contrast with the use of force by the IDF in the occupied
> territories in the past three years. Even if we do suppose these killings
> were all in the past three years, one is still comparing the dozen to the
> thousand, a whole different scale.
These were the early "rubber bullets"- 150 mm long with a diameter of 40 mm
and have been superseded by a newer plastic variant which is less lethal at
any range. I have one of the original rubber bullets - it is quite hard and
inflexible. The newer ones are I believe smaller and possibly less dense -
they certainly have not proved as lethal although large numbers have been
fired since being introduced.
Anybody wanting an objective website on the Troubles in Northern Ireland
should test this link: -
rather than rely on anything posted by Error. His suggested sites all have
an agenda.
This is an interesting area for those especially interested in crowd control
through the use of baton rounds: -
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/police/docs/niobatonreport2-1201.pdf
.
Robert Arvay
paha...@onetel.net.uk (Paul Hammond) wrote in message news:<c977f97b.03121...@posting.google.com>...
> > > I'd rather they didn't get shot by Israeli sub-machine
> > > guns for hurling stones.
>
> The rap song we were talking about was called "Stone
> Thrower", or have I missed something here?
>
> Bombs need a different approach to stones, or are you
> unable to tell the difference?
>
Different from machine-guns, too.
The point is, I advocate for the Palestinians a government free of
corruption, economic prosperity--- all of this is achievable if we
take the emphasis away from support of the radicals.
You focus only on Israel (and not the Syrians who persecute even more
Palestinians), and on excusing violence against them.
My approach is pro-Palestinian.
Yours is anti-Israel.
There's an inportant difference.
QisQos
> (KRT) PARIS
> Civil rights activists accused Sarkozy of "criminalizing the poor" but
> opinion polls showed that his crackdown enjoyed broad public support.
>
> In addition to the commission on anti-Semitism, the government this
> week also announced a five-year plan to rejuvenate 160 of France's
> most impoverished housing projects.
>
> Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin said the aim was to "smash the
> ghettos" of social deprivation where most of France's immigrants live.
Try as they (the Parisians) may, the mahometan immigrant has no
interest in adapting to European work ethics. One sees these fellows
everywhere living in squalid apartments in Hamburg, Rotterdam, paris
and Madrid, plotting against their host countries as they pretend to
refugee status.
Sadly enough, with the refusal of the recent EU constitution to
acknowledge Christianity as the singular formative impulse of Europe's
greatness, the forgers of this constitution have imperilled Europe's
future and have thrown the gates of its cities to the Moor as did the
Jews of Visigothic Spain.
800 years of warfare were necessary to drive the Moor from Spain, only
to have the children of Europe embracing the crescent with open arms
under the illusion of Liberty, Equality and Fraternity a few short
centuries later.
The mahometan cares nothing of such sentiments and will in a
generation have drowned all memory of the mottos and rally cries of
the freemasons and revolutionaries by the shrill of the muezzin.
Birth rates alone are enough to cause one to reflect; the mahometan
immigrant having the majority of live births, while the host Germans
and French are not even replacing their own. Three generations and
Europe will awaken to find itself Arab.
It is a matter of time before the west wakes up to the real threat of
mahometanism - indeed after September 11, 2001 many in America have,
although there is resistance due to freemasonic constitutionalism and
the belief that the rights of those who would destroy our freedoms
need to be protected. And in order to protect western cultural values,
we will have to find that blanket freedoms lead to license - as in the
case of the Arab rap singers of the parent article, and that clearly,
not all freedom of speech or of the press is necessary to
civilization, neither is it good nor desirable.
Bahaism is a nice surrogate to mahometanism, a means of desensitizing
one to the real threat of the minaret and crescent - look they are
just like us, bright shiny former hippies and civil rights workers,
the velvet glove which covers the iron fist. Eventually all of these
theoretical speculations about the Bab being the Quaim and Aaha Allah
being the Second Coming will have found their distracting utility
served, and discarded.
The time is coming when it will be realized that those who are of
Arabian or Persian descent will be more easily repatiated to their
fatherlands than monitored at great expense for potential terrorist
activity. How quickly the west has forgotten the long hardships it
fought to save its very existence from the Turk, this memory swept
away in the tide that has convulsed her since the French Revolution
and its idolatry of "human reason" and "equal rights".
Call to mind the decisive battle of Vienna:
September 11, 1683
QisQos
Robert Arvay
Qis...@aol.com (QisQos) wrote in message news:<29a4262b.03121...@posting.google.com>...
>
> Try as they (the Parisians) may, the mahometan immigrant has no
> interest in adapting to European work ethics. One sees these fellows
> everywhere living in squalid apartments in Hamburg, Rotterdam, paris
> and Madrid, plotting against their host countries as they pretend to
> refugee status.
>
Fortunately, in the USA, I have not seen this lack of work ethic among
immigrant Muslims. Indeed, it is somewhat of a joke that all the
taxicab drivers and convenience store owners are Palestinians.
However, I have read reports that some American Muslims send their
children to sectarian schools which indoctrinate the children into
radical ideas, such as the madrassas of Wahhabi Islam do in Pakistan.
If true, this is the basis of a dangerous future insurgency, such as
the one which resulted in the first attempt to destroy the World Trade
Center towers in New York.
The Revelation speaks of a time when ten kings will hand over their
authority to the anti-Christ. As Europe becomes increasingly
anti-Christian and anti-Jewish, while at the same time the erosion of
national sovereignty becomes somewhat of an internationalist credo, we
may be seeing the beginnings of that prophecy in action.
Paul Hammond
Your approach is about as pro-Palestian as Hitler's
was pro-Jewish.
Don't spew your lies at me any more.
Paul
Adelard
> Rober...@msn.com (Robert Arvay) wrote in message news:<e247d7b6.03121...@posting.google.com>...
> > Greetings;
> >
> > paha...@onetel.net.uk (Paul Hammond) wrote in message news:<c977f97b.03121...@posting.google.com>...
> >
> > > > > I'd rather they didn't get shot by Israeli sub-machine
> > > > > guns for hurling stones.
> > >
> > > The rap song we were talking about was called "Stone
> > > Thrower", or have I missed something here?
> > >
> > > Bombs need a different approach to stones, or are you
> > > unable to tell the difference?
> > >
> > Different from machine-guns, too.
> > The point is, I advocate for the Palestinians a government free of
> > corruption, economic prosperity--- all of this is achievable if we
> > take the emphasis away from support of the radicals.
> > You focus only on Israel (and not the Syrians who persecute even more
> > Palestinians), and on excusing violence against them.
> > My approach is pro-Palestinian.
> > Yours is anti-Israel.
> > There's an inportant difference.
Robert, how can your nonsense prophecies of the end of the world be
accomplished if you are a pro-Palestinian?
http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north222.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north222.html
Robert Arvay
themostg...@yahoo.com (Adelard) wrote in message news:<dfdf12c8.03121...@posting.google.com>...
>
> Robert, how can your nonsense prophecies of the end of the world be
> accomplished if you are a pro-Palestinian?
>
(1) I think that if one both reads The Revelation, and follows
current events, the word "nonsense" might be replaced with
"plausible." But if one has already made up his mind, then facts are
likely to have little impact.
(2) I am both pro-Palestinian and pro-Jew, both pro-USA and
pro-World. There is no conflict between those. The best chance for
peace occurs when individual people have control over their own lives,
and a voice in their community. Palestinians in the USA are peaceful
and prosperous because they take legitimate advantage of the
opportunities which our society offers. Palestinians in the Middle
East live under the oppressive, corrupt rule of kleptocratic killers
such as Yasser Arafat, and under the brutal regime of Syria (which
oppresses Lebanon), in a region where the model of governance is
dictatorship.
(3) The prophecies of God always come to pass exactly as foretold. I
find that they are oftentimes foreshadowed by preceding events. For
example, I see in figures such as Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot,
prototypes of the anti-Christ who is to come.
(4) Even in Baha'i prophecy there is a vague premonition of dark days
to come. So we may not be so far apart as you imagine, if you are a
Bahai.
(5) The prophecies will neither be accomplished by man, nor hastened
by him, nor retarded by man. Our main role is to prepare ourselves
for the tribulation to come, and to preach the gospel to all who will
hear it, lest they be deceived by the ultimate master of deception,
the anti-Christ. My fear for Bahais is that their infatuation with
world unity will lead them to believe that the anti-Christ (which will
unify the world before the return of Jesus) will be the fulfillment of
Bahai prophecy (Lesser/Greater peace, etc). My hope for them is that
they will seek refuge in the one and only sufficient (and
all-sufficient!) defense against that deception, by turning to Lord
Jesus.
Adelard
(1) I think that if one both reads The Revelation, and follows
current events, the word "nonsense" might be replaced with
"plausible." But if one has already made up his mind, then facts are
likely to have little impact.
>>
Are you trying to say current events are foretold in the Bible?
Robert, all these kind of events have been happening since a century
now. At that time, a century ago, people were saying the same thing
you are saying now.
<<
(2)I am both pro-Palestinian
>>
No, you are not.
<<
and pro-Jew,
>>
No, you are not really either. You are just driven by all your
biblical nonsense prophecies based on the wrong interpretation to be
fulfilled.
<<
There is no conflict between those. The best chance for
peace occurs when individual people have control over their own lives,
and a voice in their community.
>>
Tell me which countries uphold what you say above? There is no one,
Robert. The world is being led by a handful of few Elites, if you
would know.
<<
Palestinians in the USA are peaceful
and prosperous because they take legitimate advantage of the
opportunities which our society offers.
>>
They are doing much better, because the USA has a least 10% of
unemployment while Palestine has 60%. Do you see the difference?
<<
Palestinians in the Middle
East live under the oppressive, corrupt rule of kleptocratic killers
such as Yasser Arafat
>>
You equate the few palestians people who have Osama Bin ladin's
mindset and applied it to Arafat or Palestian Autority. What if I can
say that the USA Government's mindset is like that of Pat Robertson or
Jerry Farawell. Do you think that I would be Right, in that case?
<<
(5) The prophecies will neither be accomplished by man, nor hastened
by him, nor retarded by man. Our main role is to prepare ourselves
for the tribulation to come, and to preach the gospel to all who will
hear it, lest they be deceived by the ultimate master of deception,
the anti-Christ.
My fear for Bahais is that their infatuation with
world unity will lead them to believe that the anti-Christ (which will
unify the world before the return of Jesus) will be the fulfillment of
Bahai prophecy (Lesser/Greater peace, etc).
>>
You draw from a wrong premise, there is not where in the Bible which
says that The Anti-Christ will bring about world unity.
Robert, don't forget that I was one of those Preachers who preached
those lies before becoming a Baha'I. It's all a big lie.
Back in Africa, the Christian colonialist missionaries with their
political agenda, always taught that African Unity is a satanic
agenda. Their agenda was to "divide and conquer".
And this kind of teaching based on wrong interpretation of the Bible
was more taught in Europe when E.U was not yet established.
I suspect in the USA, the South might have been teaching that the
establishment of the "United States" was a satanic agenda.
Hope you understand how the few elites manipulate the masses through
their right-wing leaders like Pat Robertson to spread all those wrong
teachings.
<<
My hope for them is that
they will seek refuge in the one and only sufficient (and
all-sufficient!) defense against that deception, by turning to Lord
Jesus.
>>
Do you see how you mindset is like that of Osama Bin Ladin. Just
replace the name "Jesus" with "Muhammad".
Peace,
Adelard
Susan Maneck
>Robert, all these kind of events have been happening since a century
>now. At that time, a century ago, people were saying the same thing
>you are saying now.
In fact they were saying the same thing prior to St. Augustine. He put them on
hold until 1000 A.D. and they have been saying the same thing ever since.
Susan Maneck
>
>Try as they (the Parisians) may, the mahometan immigrant has no
>interest in adapting to European work ethics.
Nonsense. They came here to get work.
> the forgers of this constitution have imperilled Europe's
>future and have thrown the gates of its cities to the Moor as did the
>Jews of Visigothic Spain.
Gee, I wonder why they did that? Couldn't have had anything to do with the
severe persecuation of Jews which followed the Visigoth's conversion to
Catholicism?
>800 years of warfare were necessary to drive the Moor from Spain
What it took was invasions on the part of outsiders who had nothing to do with
Spain.
>
>The time is coming when it will be realized that those who are of
>Arabian or Persian descent will be more easily repatiated to their
>fatherlands than monitored at great expense for potential terrorist
>activity.
Hey, why bother? Genocide will take care of the problem.
Susan Maneck
>However, I have read reports that some American Muslims send their
>children to sectarian schools which indoctrinate the children into
>radical ideas
Hey, you know I've heard some Christians advocate the same thing! Do you think
it is a plot?
Susan Maneck
>and prosperous because they take legitimate advantage of the
>opportunities which our society offers.
Dear Robert,
Palestinians take advantage of whatever opportunities are afforded them
wherever they go. Despite the poverty of their community they are the best
educated Arabs in the world. And they learned long ago that you have to work
for a living.
>The prophecies of God always come to pass exactly as foretold.
The prophecies of Isaiah didn't. Cyrus did not destroy the temples of Babylon
as the prophet fortold he would.
warmest, Susan
Robert Arvay
sma...@aol.com (Susan Maneck ) wrote in message news:<20031220202818...@mb-m23.aol.com>...
> >Palestinians in the USA are peaceful
> >and prosperous because they take legitimate advantage of the
> >opportunities which our society offers.
>
> Dear Robert,
>
> Palestinians take advantage of whatever opportunities are afforded them
> wherever they go. Despite the poverty of their community they are the best
> educated Arabs in the world. And they learned long ago that you have to work
> for a living.
I have the highest regard for them.
>
> >The prophecies of God always come to pass exactly as foretold.
>
> The prophecies of Isaiah didn't. Cyrus did not destroy the temples of Babylon
> as the prophet fortold he would.
>
I don't know the specific case. But in the past, when the argument
has been made for Biblical errancy (and I used to believe them),
further investigation has always undermined those arguments. I'll try
to look into this one.
Merry Christmas to all!