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Kazemzadeh, Semple and al-Qaida

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Juan Cole

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Feb 8, 2002, 12:21:19 PM2/8/02
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The Baha'i faith stands for universal love, for tolerance, and for a
separation of religion and state. The need for religious leaders to
let politicians do the ruling is a key value stated over and over
again in Baha'i scripture.

Unfortunately, a weird Baha'i sub-cult has arisen. It structurally
resembles al-Qaida, and differs from al-Qaida only with regard to
methods, not ideals. It does not usually employ violence or terrorism
(though persons with this mindset have beaten up friends of mind).
And, most frighteningly of all, it has taken over and subverted the
main institutions of the Baha'i faith.

1)

Al-Qaida believes in the destruction of secular, civil governments and
replacing them with a fascist theocracy.

Baha'i theocrats believe in the destruction of secular, civil
governments and replacing them with a fascist theocracy. Ian Semple,
a member of the Baha'i Universal House of Justice, has for decades
cast scorn on civil governments and spoken of his dream of a future
when Baha'i Institutions will rule in their stead.

One pilgrim wrote,

"I recall being in Haifa in the '70s ('72 and '78) and hearing long
talks about this from Ian Semple, on how the world was destined to be
ruled by houses of justice and there will eventually be no distinction
between church and state, with rather snide and smug comments about
how at last the world will finally get it right and have God and
Government fused through the power of the Baha'i covenant."

Note that this is the opposite of what `Abdu'l-Baha says in the
Treatise on Leadership:

http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/~bahai/trans/vol2/absiyasi.htm

Semple also put out a letter from the Secretariat of the UHJ:

"As for the statement made by Shoghi Effendi in his letter of 21 March
1932, the well-established principles of the Faith concerning the
relationship of the Baha'i institutions to those of the country in
which the Baha'is reside make it unthinkable that they would ever
purpose to violate a country's constitution or so to meddle in its
political machinery as to attempt to take over the powers of
government. This is an integral element of the Baha'i principle of
abstention from involvement in politics. However, this does not by any
means imply that the country itself may not, by constitutional means,
decide to adopt Baha'i laws and practices and modify its constitution
or method of government accordingly."

In this passage he basically argues for a Nazi-like tactic of getting
elected democratically and then abolishing democracy. By the way, the
Islamists (with al-Qaida links) tried this in Algeria, and the
democrats and secularists fought back, embroiling the country in a
civil war that has cost 100,000 lives. This is the sort of conflict
between theocratic Baha'is and the rest of society that Semple is
urging on the world. At that point would the Baha'i theocrats refrain
from violence?


2) Al-Qaida wishes to reestablish the Islamic Caliphate as the One
World Government.

Baha'i theocrats substitute the House of Justice for the Caliphate and
envision it ruling the world.

3) Al-Qaida despises parliamentary democracy as corrupt, money-driven
and unrepresentative. It wishes to overthrow parliaments and
institute authoritarian religious rule instead.

Baha'i theocrats despise parliamentary democracy and wish to
substitute their religious institutions, which are not freely elected,
for civil government. Long-time Baha'i leader Firuz Kazemzadeh said
in 1988:

"If somebody is dissatisfied with a local assembly, he is not
prevented from appealing to the NSA . . . It is something else when
whispering campaigns or petitions are sent around for signatures
objecting to the activities of the institutions. That also may be
something which is countenanced by American democracy but has nothing
to do with the Baha’i Faith. We must always remember that our
institutions are an unusual and unique combination of theocracy in the
best sense of the term with democracy. The institutions of the
Baha’i Faith have not been created by us, the institutions have
been created by God.”

Actually, Kazemzadeh's version of the Baha'i institutions has been
created by Kazemzadeh.

4) Al-Qaida establishes cells throughout the world to work for
theocracy, and recruits innocent Muslims at mosques.

Baha'i theocrats have secret cells within the Baha'i community, and
recruit Baha'is at deepenings and other events into their twisted
world-view. Many "Auxiliary Board Members" and Assistants are secret
theocrats who play dirty tricks on ordinary Baha'is to force them out
of the Faith.

The Ian Semple/Kazemzadeh theocratic ideology aims at destroying
American democracy. It aims at gutting the Constitution and
abolishing Congress in favor of Kazemzadeh's weird, secretive,
authoritarian way of ruling.

5) Al-Qaida demands absolute obedience from its recruits, and no
dissent is permitted.

Baha'i theocrats demand absolute obedience to "the Institutions" and
tolerate no dissent. Kazemzadeh told a group of Baha'i intellectuals,

"the word dissent implies separating oneself from the activities of
the group and putting oneself outside the mainstream of the community,
and that is contrary to Baha'i practice.”

You can't disagree with the NSA.

The dangers to the pristine Baha'i faith, with its values of
tolerance, allowing the expression of diverse points of view, and firm
commitment to the separation of religion and state, of this theocratic
cult that has taken control of the community cannot be overstated.
Moreover, it is a threat to the whole world.

Now that we have seen where such authoritarian theocracy leads, on
September 11, I call upon all Baha'is to step back, reread the
scriptures, and adhere to the real values of our religion.

cheers Juan Cole

Rick Schaut

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Feb 8, 2002, 2:12:56 PM2/8/02
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"Juan Cole" <jri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:619f1452.02020...@posting.google.com...

> The Baha'i faith stands for universal love, for tolerance, and for a
> separation of religion and state.

Such is the Juan Cole official reinterpretation of Baha'u'llah. Shoghi
Effendi's statements on the matter, however, say otherwise.

> Ian Semple,
> a member of the Baha'i Universal House of Justice, has for decades
> cast scorn on civil governments and spoken of his dream of a future
> when Baha'i Institutions will rule in their stead.

Again, we get another outright lie from Dr. Cole, and the only thing that's
proferred to back this up is a pilgrim's note. I guess Dr. Cole is simply
too busy to actually take the time to address other forms of primary
evidence that would countradict a single pilgrim's note.

> In this passage he basically argues for a Nazi-like tactic of getting
> elected democratically and then abolishing democracy.

Yet another outright lie. The statement refers to standing Baha'i policies
regarding political non-involvement, which Dr. Cole knows forbits Baha'is
from running for office within a democratic system that's premised on
getting elected through membership in political parties. Dr. Cole knows
that no Baha'i would countenance the notion of "getting elected
democratically and then abolishing democracy." Thus, his statement cannot
be regarded as anything but an outright lie.

> Baha'i theocrats substitute the House of Justice for the Caliphate and
> envision it ruling the world.

Again, a distortion of the truth so gross as to constitute a lie. Do
Baha'is believe the Universal House of Justice will, some day, be the center
piece of what is referred to as the World Order of Baha'u'llah? Yes.
However, at that point, any similarity between what Baha'is envision and any
Al-Qaida dream for establishing a caliphate ends. Dr. Cole also knows this
to be true, but clearly seeks to brush aside any legitimate distinctions of
which many can be made, not the least of which is the complete absence of
any use of force or of any effort to undermine existing governments in
Baha'i activities.

> Baha'i theocrats despise parliamentary democracy and wish to
> substitute their religious institutions, which are not freely elected,
> for civil government.

Yet another lie. Baha'i institutions are, indeed, freely elected. Nor, for
that matter, do Baha'is seek to substitute Baha'i institutions for civil
institutions. Baha'is believe that, some day, when the majority of the
population had become Baha'i, Baha'i institutions will form the pattern by
which civil government is exercised. That, however, is very different from
simply seeking to supplant civil government with Baha'i institutions.

> Actually, Kazemzadeh's version of the Baha'i institutions has been
> created by Kazemzadeh.

Dr. Cole knows full well that Dr. Kazemzadeh's version of Baha'i
institutions has plenty of support in the writings of Shoghi Effendi,
particularly Shoghi Effendi's letter known as "The Dispensation of
Baha'u'llah." So, yet again, we get an outright lie from Dr. Cole.

> Baha'i theocrats have secret cells within the Baha'i community, and
> recruit Baha'is at deepenings and other events into their twisted
> world-view.

A charge that's been repeated many times without substantive evidence to
back it up. Yet, given the track record so far in this post, one has little
faith in Dr. Cole's ability to produce any such evidence without twisting it
to mean what he wants it to mean.

> Baha'i theocrats demand absolute obedience to "the Institutions" and
> tolerate no dissent.

Actually, Baha'i institutions tolerate a great deal of "dissent" when it's
voiced through proper channels. It is a very different model of governance
than that which is prevalent in common western democracies, and, of this,
there can be little doubt. Whether or not it can be accurately
characterised as an outright "theocracy" would only depend on the extent to
which one would highlight similarities while ingoring important differences.

But one does have to wonder why Dr. Cole can't simply allow the Writings of
Shoghi Effendi to speak for themselves? Why does Dr. Cole have to resort to
either outright lies or distortions of the truth so gross as to be
indistinguishable from lies?


--
Regards,
Rick Schaut
The "Reply-To" line has a bogus e-mail account for SPAM blocking purposes.
If you wish to reply by e-mail, send to rsschaut at attbi dot com.

Michael McKenny

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Feb 8, 2002, 2:29:13 PM2/8/02
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Greetings, Juan.
Many thanks for posting this cogent and coherent analysis of the
similarities and dangers of Baha'i and of Islamic fundamentalism. The
world has suffered too much from too many generations of fundamentalists,
whichever prophet they claimed to be following, for us to welcome yet
another religion succumbing to the same evil.
I want to make it clear that I abhor the treatment which has been
inflicted by Baha'i fundamentalists upon you and other Baha'i liberals.
The first thing I noticed on joining Talisman One was the hounding of
liberals and the very existence of fundamentalism in what I had long
believed a quite tolerant and universal religion. I spoke up and the
consequences are history.
The enormous harm that has been inflicted on Baha'i by those in that
religion intolerant of the expression of the diversity of views, and the
tragic consequences of fundamentalism in Islam and other religions does
not invalidate completely the opinion that a theocratic rulership can
work. Personally, I am a liberal democrat, and I also acknowledge the
validity of views that the Tsar or the Chinese Emperor or the Caliph
or the Universal House of Justice be empowered to administer affairs,
on the condition that this can be accomplished with respect for basic
human rights and essential ethical (spiritual, to Baha'is) principles.
The most telling point against this vision of the UHJ meddling in
political administration is that it has shown so little respect for human
rights and behaved so as to make people grateful it lacked more capacity
to cause harm. This does not mean that one may not validly hold the
opinion that there can be a UHJ, a Caliph, a Tsar or an Emperor with
sufficient constitutional restraints to head a state, even a global
state.
I think it is important to distinguish the characteristics that are
unacceptable (intolerance of other opinions, unquestioning obedience of
any totalitarian command whatsoever, visualization of a duality of the
elect or chosen and the evil other, suspicion of reasoned thought, etc.)
from a laudable desire to return to the golden days of Islam or to reach
for a future golden age in Baha'i. In my opinion, one may validly aspire
to restore the Caliphate, the Tsar, the Emperor or to see the Universal
House of Justice triumphant, only not through violence, nor through the
despicable behaviour which is recent Baha'i history. There are many valid
political opinions, and some concepts of imperial and theocratic rule,
even if they are not mine, remain valid.
Thrice Three Blessings, Michael.


--
"My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard."
(Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2)

Michael McKenny

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Feb 8, 2002, 2:41:22 PM2/8/02
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Greetings, Rick.
Methinks thine argument and thine frequent denials would be much more
credible were Juan and other Baha'i liberals within Baha'i demonstrating
to a sceptical non-Baha'i world how the universalist vision of Baha'u'llah
and the actual respect in practise by Baha'is and their institutions for
the natural diversity of human understandings differed from the intolerance
of Islamic and other fundamentalism.
To Tolerance and Understanding, Michael.

Rick Schaut

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Feb 8, 2002, 3:18:53 PM2/8/02
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"Michael McKenny" <bn...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:a419l2$1k2$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...

> Methinks thine argument and thine frequent denials would be much more
> credible

Methinks the labelling of my comments as "denials" is little more than a
smokescreen designed to take attention away from the very obvious lies in
Juan's post. You know them to be lies just as much as I do.

Michael McKenny

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Feb 8, 2002, 5:11:43 PM2/8/02
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Greetings, Rick.
Sorry, I thought you were denying that there was a correspondence
between Baha'i fundamentalism and Islamic fundamentalism. So, you are
admitting the correspondence. Good. Overcoming denial is the first step
in resolving the problem.

To Tolerance and Understanding, Michael.

>> Methinks thine argument and thine frequent denials would be much more
>> credible

>Methinks the labelling of my comments as "denials" is little more than a
>smokescreen designed to take attention away from the very obvious lies in
>Juan's post. You know them to be lies just as much as I do.

--
Regards,
Rick Schaut

--

Rick Schaut

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Feb 8, 2002, 6:25:49 PM2/8/02
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"Michael McKenny" <bn...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:a41iev$e2b$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...

> Sorry, I thought you were denying that there was a correspondence
> between Baha'i fundamentalism and Islamic fundamentalism.

No, Michael, I've pointed out specifically where Dr. Cole's statements of
fact are simply not true. This isn't a matter of opinion. Juan is flat out
lieing, Michael.

Michael McKenny

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Feb 8, 2002, 7:13:27 PM2/8/02
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Greetings, Rick.
Sorry, I read too quickly. I didn't notice you providing the correct
information. Lying is deliberate falsehood. Maybe Juan has had a lapse of
memory or maybe he's wandered into an alternate universe or maybe a
thousand other things. I deny telepathic capacity, and they say telepaths
need line of sight and Ottawa sort of curves away several hundred miles
from Michigan, so I don't know that he's deliberately telling untruths.
I'll try to check again your presentation of the true and accurate
info. I didn't notice it the first time I hastily scanned your post. I'll
try again.
To focus on fact and avoidance of ad hominems such as deliberate
presentation of info known to be incorrect. Even if you do it, the issue
is the fact, nothing to do with you or you intent, which, gods be praised,
I'm not inside your head to determine.
To being able to express avariety of opinions, including opinions that
authorities have got things wrong, Michael.

Michael McKenny

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Feb 8, 2002, 7:42:17 PM2/8/02
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Greetings, Rick.
You assert the follwing is a deliberate untruth. I have your claim
to balance against Juan's claim. You even admit that Juan has witness
corroboration of his claim! I'm very busy, but not too busy to read your
other evidence. Present it. You also are insisting on your own view
of scripture, denying Juan his personal understanding. Although you
assert, to my utter astonsihment, (as the world I come from is one
where Baha'i authorities and their supporters hounded this soul until he
resigned from the Baha'i Faith and to this day they don't admit he belongs)
Juan is issuing an official reinterpretation, you're the guy insisting
he's not entitled to his opinion.
To Freedom of thought and expression, Michael.

"Juan Cole" <jri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:619f1452.02020...@posting.google.com...
> The Baha'i faith stands for universal love, for tolerance, and for a
> separation of religion and state.

Such is the Juan Cole official reinterpretation of Baha'u'llah. Shoghi
Effendi's statements on the matter, however, say otherwise.

> Ian Semple,
> a member of the Baha'i Universal House of Justice, has for decades
> cast scorn on civil governments and spoken of his dream of a future
> when Baha'i Institutions will rule in their stead.

Again, we get another outright lie from Dr. Cole, and the only thing that's
proferred to back this up is a pilgrim's note. I guess Dr. Cole is simply
too busy to actually take the time to address other forms of primary
evidence that would countradict a single pilgrim's note.

--
Regards,
Rick Schaut
The "Reply-To" line has a bogus e-mail account for SPAM blocking purposes.
If you wish to reply by e-mail, send to rsschaut at attbi dot com.

--

Michael McKenny

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Feb 8, 2002, 7:43:55 PM2/8/02
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Greetings, Rick.
Hey, man, I recall on the original Talisman I think this guy arguing
with me on this very point, insisting there was no such thing as the
Baha'i Faith planning to administer the world in the future. After I
posted the appropriate quote he went away to meditate before refuting
me, and he never posted a refutation.
What are you objecting to here, that there is a Baha'i concept that
the UHJ will administer the entire planet in a theocratic system, or
that this will only come about in a democratic fashion. Are you insisting
that it will come about in a non-democratic fashion? Are you talking about
jihads and coups?

To Tolerance and Understanding, Michael.

> In this passage he basically argues for a Nazi-like tactic of getting


> elected democratically and then abolishing democracy.

Yet another outright lie. The statement refers to standing Baha'i policies
regarding political non-involvement, which Dr. Cole knows forbits Baha'is
from running for office within a democratic system that's premised on
getting elected through membership in political parties. Dr. Cole knows
that no Baha'i would countenance the notion of "getting elected
democratically and then abolishing democracy." Thus, his statement cannot
be regarded as anything but an outright lie.

--
Regards,
Rick Schaut
The "Reply-To" line has a bogus e-mail account for SPAM blocking purposes.
If you wish to reply by e-mail, send to rsschaut at attbi dot com.

--

Michael McKenny

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Feb 8, 2002, 8:48:21 PM2/8/02
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Greetings, Rick.
What's the distinction? Sorry, I don't see it. You mean, that it
won't be a question of seeking? You're not just going to try? You're
going to succeed? Or do you see a distinction between the US Congress
dissolving itself and "seek to substitute". My language skills aren't
up to this. Spell it out, bud. What's the difference?

To Tolerance and Understanding, Michael.

> Baha'i theocrats despise parliamentary democracy and wish to


> substitute their religious institutions, which are not freely elected,
> for civil government.

Yet another lie. Baha'i institutions are, indeed, freely elected. Nor, for
that matter, do Baha'is seek to substitute Baha'i institutions for civil
institutions. Baha'is believe that, some day, when the majority of the
population had become Baha'i, Baha'i institutions will form the pattern by
which civil government is exercised. That, however, is very different from
simply seeking to supplant civil government with Baha'i institutions.

--
Regards,
Rick Schaut
The "Reply-To" line has a bogus e-mail account for SPAM blocking purposes.
If you wish to reply by e-mail, send to rsschaut at attbi dot com.

--

Michael McKenny

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Feb 8, 2002, 8:44:28 PM2/8/02
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Greetings, Rick.
Great. Just how does the Baha'i fundamentalist vision really differ
from that of the Islamists and the Caliphate? Is it that the Caliph will
be a hereditary individual and the UHJ will be elected? Just how do you
hound people like Juan out of the religion, send around Counsellors and
ABMs to talk to people about the posting of appropriate understandings to
the Internet, boot people like Alison Marshall out of the Baha'i Faith and
say there's an enormous distortion, consisting a lie.
By the Morrigan, mate, I can fully understand how someone like Juan
could say that you've so distorted Baha'u'llah's vision of universal love,
harmony and world peace that you've basically constituted a lie, but I do
not at all see how wrong Juan is. Spell it out, bud. Just how do you
distinguish the future role of the UHJ from that of the Caliph in Islam
as envisioned by such as the Taliban (I reiterate that it is valid to
postulate the Caliphate or the triumph of the UHJ as long as human rights
etc are maintained) -- in the thoughtless obedience of any command soever,
in the trampling on human rights, including the rights of women, in the
opposition to reason, in the insistence on only one true reading of
scripture, etc.? Fill us in, mate. What's the difference?
Expectantly, Michael.

> Baha'i theocrats substitute the House of Justice for the Caliphate and
> envision it ruling the world.

Again, a distortion of the truth so gross as to constitute a lie. Do
Baha'is believe the Universal House of Justice will, some day, be the center
piece of what is referred to as the World Order of Baha'u'llah? Yes.
However, at that point, any similarity between what Baha'is envision and any
Al-Qaida dream for establishing a caliphate ends. Dr. Cole also knows this
to be true, but clearly seeks to brush aside any legitimate distinctions of

which many can be made...


--
Regards,
Rick Schaut
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If you wish to reply by e-mail, send to rsschaut at attbi dot com.

--

Michael McKenny

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Feb 8, 2002, 8:45:34 PM2/8/02
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Greetings, Rick.
What Sliders' World did you fly in from? No force? What the blazes
is in all those old archives I'm going through if not force? You have
people like Rick Shaut, like Brent Porier, like Counsellor Birkman, etc.
insisting on one true understanding on line, and, in the case of Birkland
paying people like Juan visits on account of what they post to e-mail
lists. You have people like Juan being hounded (forced) out of Baha'i. You
have the UHJ booting people out who can't be pressured (forced) to shut up,
as a warning that if one is articulate and wishes to be a Baha'i one must
toe the party line. Are we supposed to believe that you guys who so altered
the other stuff in Baha'i really are to be trusted, if you end up in
political power a la Taliban that you won't use identical force a la
Taliban? You may honestly believe that, but Juan or anyone else would sure
as Blazes not be lying to express a quite valid alternate opinion.


To Tolerance and Understanding, Michael.

>to be true, but clearly seeks to brush aside any legitimate distinctions of


>which many can be made, not the least of which is the complete absence of

>any use of force...

--
Regards,
Rick Schaut
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If you wish to reply by e-mail, send to rsschaut at attbi dot com.

--

Michael McKenny

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Feb 8, 2002, 8:46:48 PM2/8/02
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Greetings, Rick.
Juan's point is that Baha'i fundamentalists envisage the future day
when the democratically elected secular government will dissolve itself
and the administration of the affairs of the Baha'i world will be done
by the Baha'i institutions. Do you deny this? Are you in a meditative
mood? How fun it is to be blurry and say, "No way, we respect the elected
government", (until we can take control)."

> or of any effort to undermine existing governments in Baha'i activities.

--
Regards,
Rick Schaut
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If you wish to reply by e-mail, send to rsschaut at attbi dot com.

--

Dermod Ryder

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Feb 8, 2002, 8:59:05 PM2/8/02
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"Rick Schaut" <rssc...@email.msn.NOSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:3c642338$1...@news.microsoft.com...

>
> "Juan Cole" <jri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:619f1452.02020...@posting.google.com...
> > The Baha'i faith stands for universal love, for tolerance, and for
a
> > separation of religion and state.
>
> Such is the Juan Cole official reinterpretation of Baha'u'llah.
Shoghi
> Effendi's statements on the matter, however, say otherwise.

So there's NO universal love, NO tolerance and NO separation of church
and state. Thanks for that confirmation that the current re-modelled
version of the BF is as far from the vision of the founder as the Sun
is from Uranus! It's a religion of fear and hatred, spies and
enforcement of official viewpoints and you well represent the pinnacle
of the tired hacks trotted out periodically by the AO to reveal its
hypocrisy to the world.

The rest of your post is the usual obfuscatory garbage!


> > Ian Semple,
> > a member of the Baha'i Universal House of Justice, has for decades
> > cast scorn on civil governments and spoken of his dream of a
future
> > when Baha'i Institutions will rule in their stead.
>
> Again, we get another outright lie from Dr. Cole, and the only thing
that's
> proferred to back this up is a pilgrim's note. I guess Dr. Cole is
simply
> too busy to actually take the time to address other forms of primary
> evidence that would countradict a single pilgrim's note.

Produce the evidence!

Michael McKenny

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Feb 8, 2002, 8:58:15 PM2/8/02
to

Greetings, Rick.
Q.E.D., man. This Juan fellow stands vindicated as a truth speaker by
thine own words.
To a Better Future, Michael.

>
Actually, Baha'i institutions tolerate a great deal of "dissent" when it's
voiced through proper channels. It is a very different model of governance
than that which is prevalent in common western democracies, and, of this,
there can be little doubt. Whether or not it can be accurately
characterised as an outright "theocracy" would only depend on the extent to
which one would highlight similarities while ingoring important differences.
>
--
Regards,
Rick Schaut

Michael McKenny

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Feb 8, 2002, 8:50:10 PM2/8/02
to
>
> --

Greetings, Rick.
I believe, sir, that Juan is suggesting that other understandings
of the ocean of Baha'u'llah's Revelation are possible besides the one
corresponding to the Taliban understanding of Islam.
To the Validity of More than a Single Understanding, Michael.

> Actually, Kazemzadeh's version of the Baha'i institutions has been
> created by Kazemzadeh.

Dr. Cole knows full well that Dr. Kazemzadeh's version of Baha'i
institutions has plenty of support in the writings of Shoghi Effendi,
particularly Shoghi Effendi's letter known as "The Dispensation of
Baha'u'llah." So, yet again, we get an outright lie from Dr. Cole.

Michael McKenny

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Feb 8, 2002, 8:52:00 PM2/8/02
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Greetings, Rick.
Basically, you've simply been saying "Aint so," That doesn't
constitute proof. Post what proof you like. This one is a dilly. I
figure it matches the grand liberal conspiracy being hatched on Majnoon.
How many people were involved in that one, and what constituted the grand
conspiracy: "Hey, man, don't rouse things up by passing around petitions;
go back to studying Arabic verbs." Gods, I bet the FBI would love to deal
with that kind of conspiracy.
Anyway, again I'm not telepathic and even were I telepathic these
cells are not, Oghma be praised, within my line of sight.
Sorry, calling Juan wrong don't make him wrong, and calling him
deliberately wrong don't make that true either.


To Tolerance and Understanding, Michael.

> Baha'i theocrats have secret cells within the Baha'i community, and


> recruit Baha'is at deepenings and other events into their twisted
> world-view.

A charge that's been repeated many times without substantive evidence to
back it up. Yet, given the track record so far in this post, one has little
faith in Dr. Cole's ability to produce any such evidence without twisting it
to mean what he wants it to mean.

--
Regards,
Rick Schaut
The "Reply-To" line has a bogus e-mail account for SPAM blocking purposes.
If you wish to reply by e-mail, send to rsschaut at attbi dot com.

--

Juan Cole

unread,
Feb 8, 2002, 9:42:51 PM2/8/02
to
I wrote,

> "Juan Cole" <jri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:619f1452.02020...@posting.google.com...
> > The Baha'i faith stands for universal love, for tolerance, and for a
> > separation of religion and state.

Our own version of Jihad Johnny Walker Lindh, Jihad Ricky Schaut,
replies:



> Such is the Juan Cole official reinterpretation of Baha'u'llah. Shoghi
> Effendi's statements on the matter, however, say otherwise.

Uh, Jihad Ricky, Shoghi Effendi does not deny that the Baha'i Faith
stands for universal love, tolerance, and for a separation of religion
and state.

Shoghi Effendi wrote, "Theirs is not the purpose, while endeavoring to
conduct and perfect the administrative affairs of their Faith, to
violate, under any circumstances, the provisions of their country's
constitution, much less to allow the machinery of their administration
to supersede the government of their respective countries."

But Jihad Ricky wants to supersede the U.S. Constitution and to throw
down the U.S. government, implementing rule by his buddies in the
Baha'i "administrative order" in direct contravention of Shoghi
Effendi's clear instructions.

Baha'u'llah wrote in His own Will and Testament,

"Kings are the manifestations of the power, and the daysprings of the
might and riches, of God. Pray ye on their behalf. He hath invested
them with the rulership of the earth and hath singled out the hearts
of men as His Own domain. Conflict and contention are categorically
forbidden in His Book. This is a decree of God in this Most Great
Revelation. It is divinely preserved from annulment and is invested by
Him with the splendour of His confirmation."

He not only gave political power to civil rulers ("kings" and
"presidents,"), but he forbade Baha'is from making any turmoil the way
the Babis had in demanding that religious institutions take over. And
he even emphasized that this principle of non-intervention in politics
by God, who wants only the hearts of men for his Institutions, is
"divinely preserved from annulment."

And yet Jihad Ricky (along with those other Jihadis, Ian Semple,
Farzam Arbab, Doug Martin, and Firuz Kazemzadeh) has mounted the
minbar of hubris and delivered himself of a Fatwa seeking to annul
what is divinely preserved from annulment, and to grab civil political
power for the Baha'i religious institutions.

`Abdu'l-Baha writes of the dire need to keep religious leaders and
institutions from trying to run the country:

"The function of the religious leaders and the duties of the clerical
jurisprudents are to attend to spiritual affairs and to promulgate
divine attributes. Whenever the leaders of the manifest religion and
the pillars of the mighty divine law have intervened in the world of
political leadership, put forward their rulings and attempted to
manage affairs, it has ever caused the unity of the believers in the
one true God to be destroyed, and resulted in the dispersal of the
faithful into factions. The flames of turmoil flared up, and the blaze
of rebelliousness scorched the world. The country was plundered and
pillaged, and the people became the prisoners and hostages of
oppressors."

Not only has religious rule and theocracy ruined Iran, Afghanistan and
now the World Trade Center, it has ravaged the Baha'i faith itself,
putting it under the thumb of a small, secretive group of cultists who
deliberately keep it tiny and exploited.

As for Ian Semple, he has long crowed about the future Baha'i
theocracy in his caves, just as Bin Ladin does in his. The proof is
overwhelming.

"I recall being in Haifa in the '70s ('72 and '78) and hearing long
talks about this from Ian Semple, on how the world was destined to be
ruled by houses of justice and there will eventually be no distinction
between church and state, with rather snide and smug comments about
how at last the world will finally get it right and have God and
Government fused through the power of the Baha'i covenant."

Thousands of pilgrims, not just one, have heard him say these things.
And not just him. David Hoffman has an audiocassette filled with such
ideas that you can order from the Baha'i publishing trust. It is all
al-Qaida ideals, from beginning to end.

Semple also had the Bahai World Centre secretariat write,

"As for the statement made by Shoghi Effendi in his letter of 21 March
1932, the well-established principles of the Faith concerning the
relationship of the Baha'i institutions to those of the country in
which the Baha'is reside make it unthinkable that they would ever
purpose to violate a country's constitution or so to meddle in its
political machinery as to attempt to take over the powers of
government. This is an integral element of the Baha'i principle of
abstention from involvement in politics. However, this does not by any
means imply that the country itself may not, by constitutional means,
decide to adopt Baha'i laws and practices and modify its

constitution."


I commented,

> > In this passage he basically argues for a Nazi-like tactic of getting
> > elected democratically and then abolishing democracy.

Jihad Ricky, who admits he wants to repeal the first amendment to the
U.S. Constitution and overthrow the US government in the long run,
writes:

>The statement refers to standing Baha'i policies
> regarding political non-involvement, which Dr. Cole knows forbits Baha'is
> from running for office within a democratic system that's premised on
> getting elected through membership in political parties.

What the statement says is that when Baha'is get to be the majority,
so that they in a democratic framework represent "the country," then
they ("the country itself") may "decide to adopt" [i.e. impose on the
whole society] "Baha'i laws" [i.e. a far rightwing literalist
interpretation of the Baha'i shariah, similar to Islamic law] and
"modify" [i.e. repeal] "its constitution" [i.e. the U.S.
Constitution]. The whole passage is doublespeak for Khrushschev's "We
will bury you!" The only difference is that Semple thinks he can
accomplish the overthrow of the U.S. constitution and the institution
of a Baha'i theocracy by simply roping enough John Walker Lindhs into
his cult-like perversion of the Baha'i faith, so that ultimately they
can pull a Nazi-like maneuver and use their majority itself to destroy
democracy.

>Do
> Baha'is believe the Universal House of Justice will, some day, be the center
> piece of what is referred to as the World Order of Baha'u'llah? Yes.

In other words, Jihad Ricky is among the small group of Baha'i
cultists that wants to establish a global Baha'i theocracy, just as
Jihad Johnny Walker Lindh wants to establish an Islamic caliphate.

> However, at that point, any similarity between what Baha'is envision and any
> Al-Qaida dream for establishing a caliphate ends.

The more cult-like members of Baha'i institutions brook no dissent,
act in an authoritarian manner, impose censorship on all Baha'is,
routinely investigate people for thought crimes, summarily toss them
out of the community, spread nasty rumors about them, demonize them,
and deprive them of the most basic human rights. Sounds an awful lot
like al-Qaida's Caliph to me.

> Dr. Cole . . . clearly seeks to brush aside any legitimate distinctions of


> which many can be made, not the least of which is the complete absence of
> any use of force or of any effort to undermine existing governments in
> Baha'i activities.

The Nazis came to power peacefully, too. That the means are
nonviolent makes the Baha'i fundamentalists less dangerous in the
short run than the al-Qaida and Taliban, which they resemble so much.
But in the long run maybe it makes them more insidious. Anyway, I
don't much care how my Constitutional rights are destroyed, whether by
violence or peacefully. I care about the *outcome*. I don't intend
to allow them to be destroyed at all.

> > Baha'i theocrats despise parliamentary democracy and wish to
> > substitute their religious institutions, which are not freely elected,
> > for civil government.
>

> Baha'i institutions are, indeed, freely elected.

No nominations, no campaigning are allowed. Speaking negatively of an
incumbent is considered "negative campaigning," for which Baha'is have
been punished. Even criticizing policies is disallowed. A small
group of like-minded people is reelected every year at the national
level, especially to offices like Secretary & Treasurer.

Well, you can run your religious elections however you like. But you
are not taking away the democracy we have and which the Master so
forcefully praised and replacing it by this weird cult-like
manipulation of community politics.

>Nor, for
> that matter, do Baha'is seek to substitute Baha'i institutions for civil
> institutions. Baha'is believe that, some day, when the majority of the
> population had become Baha'i, Baha'i institutions will form the pattern by
> which civil government is exercised. That, however, is very different from
> simply seeking to supplant civil government with Baha'i institutions.

Well, if the current more cult-like Baha'i governance procedures are
imposed by a tyranny of the majority on civil institutions as their
"pattern", then that would mean abolishing Congress, forbidding
political parties (=de facto a one-party state), imposing censorship
on the press, repealing the Constitution and the First Amendment. In
other words, Jihad Ricky is welcoming us to al-Qaida-Ville.

> > Baha'i theocrats have secret cells within the Baha'i community, and
> > recruit Baha'is at deepenings and other events into their twisted
> > world-view.
>
> A charge that's been repeated many times without substantive evidence to
> back it up. Yet, given the track record so far in this post, one has little
> faith in Dr. Cole's ability to produce any such evidence without twisting it
> to mean what he wants it to mean.

Jihad Ricky, of course, is one of the Cell Leaders. Somehow the Cell
Leaders are most vociferous in denying there are any Cells.


> > Baha'i theocrats demand absolute obedience to "the Institutions" and
> > tolerate no dissent.
>
> Actually, Baha'i institutions tolerate a great deal of "dissent" when it's
> voiced through proper channels.

No, they don't. But when the dissent is voiced, and punished
privately, then nobody on the outside can know about the repression.
Cultist Baha'i officials monitor community members, attempt to
intimidate them into silence, interfere behind the scenes in LSA
elections, and generally act in an authoritarian and corrupt way.
Then they smile and put on a 'nice' face for the public. Actually,
just listen carefully to Jihad Ricky and you'll see the real face of
Baha'i cultism and fundamentalism.

>It is a very different model of governance
> than that which is prevalent in common western democracies, and, of this,
> there can be little doubt.

In other words, what Jihad Ricky advocates is not democratic at all.
It is a form of fascist theocracy that deprives us of our God-given
democratic rights.

>Whether or not it can be accurately
> characterised as an outright "theocracy" would only depend on the extent to
> which one would highlight similarities while ingoring important differences.

That's easy for you to say. It isn't your ox that is being ingored.
Theocracy is the government of a society by the religious
institutions. That's what Jihad Ricky wants for our beautiful,
tolerant America, to make it like Iran and Taliban Afghanistan. Hint:
It is a Theocracy.

See above for what Shoghi Effendi really said.


cheers Juan

Dermod Ryder

unread,
Feb 8, 2002, 10:00:31 PM2/8/02
to
Spoken like a man who is painfully self destructing before our very
eyes according to Doc Hasbeen.

Geez I wouldn't want to meet Juan Cole when he ain't self destructing!
That could be a nuuuuclear exxxxxplosion!

Doctor Electron

unread,
Feb 8, 2002, 11:17:22 PM2/8/02
to
Long, long ago in far off talk.religion.bahai, jri...@my-deja.com
(Juan Cole) transmitted:

>The Baha'i faith stands for universal love, for tolerance, and for a

<etc, snip>

Sir, if you think a disciplinary committee at the U of M or a civil
court judge would give a rat's ass about what persons named Kazemzadeh
or Semple have done, said or theorized, or not, I suspect you are
sadly mistaken. Those entities will focus on what you did.

It is a almost beyond belief how anyone among your supporters could
have thought you had any defense. Now we see there is none.

I am saddened to see what can only be your pathetic last acts of
desperation. No one can enjoy the spectacle of your staggering and
collapsing in the trash on the sometimes filthy streets of
talk,religion.bahai. My heart-felt sorrow. I was hoping no one would
have to watch that here. There is no joy in talk.religion.bahai
tonight.

globalservices1_at_yahoo.com using @ instead of _at_.

===PEP [Pretty Excellent Privacy] encrypted message===
The bytes above contain both the key and the message.

Mark Elderkin

unread,
Feb 9, 2002, 1:22:30 AM2/9/02
to

> Geez I wouldn't want to meet Juan Cole when he ain't self destructing!
> That could be a nuuuuclear exxxxxplosion!

I would rather think that it is more a case of letting the hot air out
without the fortitude of having to be correct........ an then...... just
well followed up by loyal sniffers who will do their best to juggle the
noxious air until the smell goes away.......
M


Dr. Herbert West

unread,
Feb 9, 2002, 1:53:05 AM2/9/02
to
Could you please, in clear and concise language, explain to me what the heck
you're going on about? As I understand it, Dr. Cole made a post to the
talisman list that criticized the US NSA's reaction to the Sept. 11 murders.
Nima(Freethought) forwarded a copy of that post to TRB. Several people on
TRB asked to see a directive that Dr. Cole referenced in his post. Time went
by without this directive being produced. Nima was put on the spot and was
being cajoled to produce the directive, and he responded by saying that they
would have to ask Dr. Cole themselves. Dr. Cole himself did not respond. He
is not a regular contributor to this group, so this is understandable. Pat
Kohli persisted by making semi-regular posts addressed directly to Dr. Cole.
Pat is a regular. He knows that Dr. Cole rarely participates on this
newsgroup. I assume he expected that either Dr. Cole kept up with this group
(by lurking) or that one of the doctor's acquaintances would apprise him of
the situation. Pat's posts were inflammatory, accusing Dr. Cole of lying and
calling into question his reputation as a scholar. Now, Dr. Cole has
responded to Pat's tirade against him and to my mind has answered any
questions about the original talisman post satisfactorily. Somewhere toward
the end of this, your voice joined the fray. Your first memorable post was a
framework for a TRB FAQ. When you were told that the group had a formal
charter you were surprised. You were completely unaware of the process to
create a newsgroup on the Talk heiriarchy (and yet you claim to be a net
expert). Several people worked quite hard on making this newsgroup a reality
and several of your posts made a mockery of that hard work. Yes, we really
did vote. It's probably just as well that you weren't around back then. You
might have succumbed to the draw of the dark side and circumvented the
process by using your net genius in service of the evil AOers that opposed
this group's creation. Then you started carrying on about forgeries and
whatnot and now this. Really sir, you confuse me. Is it your nature to jump
into things headfirst without being the least bit informed?

John


Juan Cole

unread,
Feb 9, 2002, 1:56:22 AM2/9/02
to
Dear Dr. Electron, i.e. Peter Khan:

Pretty Good Privacy is just that--it is only pretty good. We can
easily trace your IP back to Haifa and see that you are actually Peter
Khan himself.

Peter, really, you have to get an excercise machine and work on that
enormous gut. It is hanging down over your belt now, and maybe you're
too old to hear the snickering but it is most embarrassing for the
Faith. Plus it is deadly for your heart.

Since you are an engineer, we're all expecting you to publish the
paper on how exactly you get your pants to stay up. You'd be
surprised how many bets are waged on whether they will stay up
throughout your long-winded harangues (yes, it is against the law of
the Aqdas to wager, but it is also against the law of the Aqdas to
read and quote the writings so much that you bore yourself and other
people).

I know the Iranians hate seeing pear-shaped (really, really
pear-shaped) middle aged men in shorts jogging around the shrines
there in Haifa. Well, I guess really any of us would rather be spared
that sight. But you could get yourself an excercise machine and some
Jennifer Lopez tapes for your walkman. Well, maybe not J-Lo. That
might be bad for your heart, too, and there was that unfortunate
business with the dance club and Puffy. Anyway some music with a good
fast beat to jog to. Given your ideology, which seems to tend toward
Fascism, maybe a Dance Remix of Wagner's Ring Cycle.

Of course, you could just lay off the Persian rice a bit, too.

Naw-Ruz is just around the corner, and it is time to make those New
Year's Resolutions.

By the way, a hint for you. Any man whose wife lets him let himself
go to that extent is probably looking for the insurance money. If she
keeps offering you huge pieces of cake and extra creamy ice cream, it
can't be good.


cheers Juan

Brian Walker

unread,
Feb 9, 2002, 2:17:43 AM2/9/02
to
Another example of duplicitous behaviour.

Juan Cole <jri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:619f1452.02020...@posting.google.com...

> Dear Dr. Electron, i.e. Peter Khan:
>
> Pretty Good Privacy is just that--it is only pretty good. We can
> easily trace your IP back to Haifa and see that you are actually Peter
> Khan himself.

That is the not the information I have seen on the headers. Also, you will
have compared the rhetorical style, language content and thought processes
in Docs writings. As flattered as he may be with the comparison, there is no
comparison. Or, put another way, Juan - your jump of logic does you no
credit. (But I would be interested to see the means whereby you came to the
conclusion. As in a maths test, seeing the workings can bring as much marks
as the correct answer)

> Peter, really, you have to get an excercise machine and work on that
> enormous gut. It is hanging down over your belt now, and maybe you're
> too old to hear the snickering but it is most embarrassing for the
> Faith. Plus it is deadly for your heart.

If we compare your writings with the call from Baha'u'llah, you will perhaps
note that the style of your address falls far below that required of a
spiritual person. Direct insults to the person. (Ad hominem? Michael, please
arise now)

Carry on Juan. The world needs to see just what kind of person you are.

Brian

Robert Little

unread,
Feb 9, 2002, 4:18:46 AM2/9/02
to
It is noticeable that there is not one single quotation offered by Professor
Cole to substantiate his incredible claims of Baha'i plots and plans for the
overthrow of democratically elected (or otherwise) governments. He claims,
for example, that "Jihad Ricky (along with those other Jihadis, Ian Semple,

Farzam Arbab, Doug Martin, and Firuz Kazemzadeh) has mounted the minbar of
hubris and delivered himself of a Fatwa seeking to annul what is divinely
preserved from annulment, and to grab civil political power for the Baha'i
religious institutions." This claim, like all the others, is backed up with
nothing more than more claims. Not one quotation from these individuals,
certainly not one single shred of evidence that would substantiate this sick
calumny.

Should anyone reading these words of Professor Cole wish to know the truth,
or wish to verify for him or herself whether or not Ian Semple or any of the
other named or unnamed individuals seeks to plot the overthrow of any
government or institution, I would suggest that they attempt to investigate
for themselves, through a perusal of the published letters and recorded
speeches given by them. Indeed, you may write directly to the Universal
House of Justice if you wish. Look hard, read and listen. There are numerous
Baha'i websites, some maintained by individuals, others by the Baha'i
institutions. Visit any one of them, ask the Baha'is in your community about
this. They'll be astonished, and they may laugh at you in disbelief, but
once you get past that, ask pointed questions of Baha'is, read the words of
Baha'ullah for yourself, and compare those words to the published letters
that have come out of the Baha'i world center in Haifa. You'll learn that
the model of Baha'i life is service to mankind, not ruler of mankind. 180
degrees.

This may well prove to be a defining moment for Professor Cole. It would be
appropriate to pray for him, for us all, that the truth be made known.

Robert A. Little

Robert Little

unread,
Feb 9, 2002, 4:31:15 AM2/9/02
to
Professor Cole

Do you remember this?

"It should also be borne in mind that the very extension of the activities
in which we are engaged, and the variety of the communities which labor
under divers forms of government, so essentially different in their
standards, policies, and methods, make it absolutely essential for all those
who are the declared members of any one of these communities to avoid any
action that might, by arousing the suspicion or exciting the antagonism of
any one government, involve their brethren in fresh persecutions or
complicate the nature of their task. How else, might I ask, could such a
far-flung Faith, which transcends political and social boundaries, which
includes within its pale so great a variety of races and nations, which will
have to rely increasingly, as it forges ahead, on the good-will and support
of the diversified and contending governments of the earth -- how else could
such a Faith succeed in preserving its unity, in safeguarding its interests,
and in ensuring the steady and peaceful development of its institutions?

Such an attitude, however, is not dictated by considerations of selfish
expediency, but is actuated, first and foremost, by the broad principle that
the followers of Baha'u'llah will, under no circumstances, suffer themselves
to be involved, whether as individuals or in their collective capacities, in
matters that would entail the slightest departure from the fundamental
verities and ideals of their Faith. Neither the charges which the uninformed
and the malicious may be led to bring against them, nor the allurements of
honors and rewards, will ever induce them to surrender their trust or to
deviate from their path. Let their words proclaim, and their conduct
testify, that they who follow Baha'u'llah, in whatever land they reside, are
actuated by no selfish ambition, that they neither thirst for power, nor
mind any wave of unpopularity, of distrust or criticism, which a strict
adherence to their standards might provoke. (21 March 1932 to the National
Spiritual Assembly of the United States and Canada, published in "The World
Order of Baha'u'llah: Selected Letters, pp. 6467)

[Bahá'í Library CD-ROM: Compilations: Crisis and Victory, Page: 86]

Robert A. Little

"Juan Cole" <jri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:619f1452.02020...@posting.google.com...

Juan Cole

unread,
Feb 9, 2002, 11:50:14 AM2/9/02
to
Dear Vitality Brian:

I understand that there is a little shop there in Hong Kong right near
the port where you can buy a mysterious sauce that will give you A
SENSE OF HUMOR, since obviously you are suffering from some sort of
serious genetic deficit in that department. We are all praying it can
be repaired without surgery, and, indeed, that the condition is not
fatal.

cheers Juan

"Brian Walker" <hea...@vitalitycenter.com.hk> wrote in message news:<a42iep$qib$1...@hfc.pacific.net.hk>...

Paul Hammond

unread,
Feb 9, 2002, 11:22:03 AM2/9/02
to

Robert Little <rlit...@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
news:WP598.10057$dx6.1...@twister.socal.rr.com...

> It is noticeable that there is not one single quotation offered by
Professor
> Cole to substantiate his incredible claims of Baha'i plots and plans for
the
> overthrow of democratically elected (or otherwise) governments. He claims,
> for example, that "Jihad Ricky (along with those other Jihadis, Ian
Semple,
> Farzam Arbab, Doug Martin, and Firuz Kazemzadeh) has mounted the minbar of
> hubris and delivered himself of a Fatwa seeking to annul what is divinely
> preserved from annulment, and to grab civil political power for the Baha'i
> religious institutions." This claim, like all the others, is backed up
with
> nothing more than more claims. Not one quotation from these individuals,
> certainly not one single shred of evidence that would substantiate this
sick
> calumny.

It's a bit of hyperbole, like what Baha'u'llah occassionally used to
used, when writing, say, to the "Son of the wolf".

The proof is in the rest of the post, not in this piece of poetic
imagery "mounting the minbar of hubris"? I don't think that
means we'll see Firuz Kazemzadeh actually climbing anything.

>
> Should anyone reading these words of Professor Cole wish to know the
truth,
> or wish to verify for him or herself whether or not Ian Semple or any of
the
> other named or unnamed individuals seeks to plot the overthrow of any
> government or institution, I would suggest that they attempt to
investigate
> for themselves, through a perusal of the published letters and recorded
> speeches given by them. Indeed, you may write directly to the Universal
> House of Justice if you wish. Look hard, read and listen. There are
numerous
> Baha'i websites, some maintained by individuals, others by the Baha'i
> institutions. Visit any one of them, ask the Baha'is in your community
about
> this. They'll be astonished, and they may laugh at you in disbelief, but
> once you get past that, ask pointed questions of Baha'is, read the words
of
> Baha'ullah for yourself, and compare those words to the published letters
> that have come out of the Baha'i world center in Haifa. You'll learn that
> the model of Baha'i life is service to mankind, not ruler of mankind. 180
> degrees.
>

All of these sound like good ideas - it would be very interesting for
a seeker to compare the actual words of Baha'u'llah with the
ideas around in contemporary Baha'i Society. Anyone who hangs
around in Baha'i circles for even a short while will soon hear the
populist Baha'i idea that the Baha'i Faith itself is eventually
destined to become the government of the world - Rick actually
just confirmed that this is true. It's not the *only* idea around
among Baha'is of what the Baha'i future holds, but it's certainly
one of the ideas.

Strip the hyperbole away, and that is what Juan says.

> This may well prove to be a defining moment for Professor Cole. It would
be
> appropriate to pray for him, for us all, that the truth be made known.

The truth of what? Juan seems to have a good, though hostile
handle on what the truth of the current Baha'i Faith is.

Paul

Paul Hammond

unread,
Feb 9, 2002, 11:28:05 AM2/9/02
to

Brian Walker <hea...@vitalitycenter.com.hk> wrote in message
news:a42iep$qib$1...@hfc.pacific.net.hk...


You're quite correct, Brian - but it gave me a damn good laugh.

So - are we talking about the ad homs against Peter Khan here?
(I have no idea what he looks like, but I'm guessing from Juan's
comments that he might want to go on a diet), or the ad homs
against Dr Electron?

Personally, since Dr Electron seems to be running a campaign
to get Juan suspended from his job, what with all this stuff about
reporting him to the Faculty, and the ad-homs directed by
*Electron* against him, I reckon Electron's getting off lightly.

So, Dr Electron, is someone instructing you to attack Juan, or
are you just trolling from a private vendetta? What gives?

Paul


Juan Cole

unread,
Feb 9, 2002, 1:59:04 PM2/9/02
to
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shoghi Effendi didn't want Baha'is fomenting coups
in other countries or something.

It doesn't mean the Baha'is can't condemn the idiot Taliban, Ostrich
Robert. The Taliban would kill you if they could.

cheers Juan

"Robert Little" <rlit...@socal.rr.com> wrote in message news:<D%598.10076$dx6.1...@twister.socal.rr.com>...

Michael McKenny

unread,
Feb 9, 2002, 3:16:02 PM2/9/02
to
Greetings, Juan.
Really? You could have fooled me. I thought this guy spoke in the
accents of Mark Foster. Of course, that's all ad hominem, and, uhm,
whatever Doc has been saying can logically be assessed on its own merit
independent of personality. I thought he wrote as one with a mission to
increase the noise ratio on the newsgroup, in the firm conviction that
such would be in the best interests of those who feel the heat of any
serious discussion here.
Inasmuch as it's a no-brainer when there's a focus on issues such as
the freedom of thought and expression, the independent investigation of
truth, justice being so important and looking with one's own eyes and
balancing faith with reason and the balanced wing of the equality of
women, etc. and no matter who they send out to argue the indefensible,
of course, fails miserably. It's not that they're aren't good players
on the fundamentalist team; it's that fundamentalism per se is a poor
thing to try to advance. The best quarterback there is can't throw a
successful long pass when it's molasses instead of a football in her/his
fingers.
To the Baha'i Faith operating with the principles Baha'u'llah provided.
To the Future,
Peace, Michael.

Dermod Ryder

unread,
Feb 9, 2002, 4:50:16 PM2/9/02
to
"Mark Elderkin" <el...@intercoast.com.au> wrote in message news:<3c64...@news.rivernet.com.au>...

Elderberry,

It's not often we have the pleasure(?) of your company.

> > Geez I wouldn't want to meet Juan Cole when he ain't self destructing!
> > That could be a nuuuuclear exxxxxplosion!
>
> I would rather think that it is more a case of letting the hot air out
> without the fortitude of having to be correct

Are you not thinking about the old grumpies here?

........ an then...... just
> well followed up by loyal sniffers who will do their best to juggle the
> noxious air until the smell goes away.......

Yes! I should have read on - you ARE talking about the grumpies.
After all they're the leaders of the only group around here that has
brown-nosed followers in total loyalty, obedience, unity, conformity
and .... all that jazz!

> M

mult...@aros.net

unread,
Feb 9, 2002, 4:59:52 PM2/9/02
to
Ever consider that Susan never answered you, the DST was slain, but up
pops an electron out of nowhere? What if he isn't a he, but a she,
how much current does it take to run a DST?

Doctor Electron

unread,
Feb 9, 2002, 8:39:02 PM2/9/02
to
Long, long ago in far off talk.religion.bahai, "Dr. Herbert West"
<hoopt...@hotmail.com> transmitted:

>Could you please, in clear and concise language, explain to me what the heck
>you're going on about?

Start with the date of Pat Kohli's most recent repost of Dr. Cole's
treason letter, on or prior to Feb. 3. Select all posts from Doctor
Electron from there to the present. Read each one. There's plenty
"going on," but I trust you will see what's "going on" (Marvin Gaye
-sp?).

Overall characterization: a developing investigation. From here, in
the sad aftermath of the public self-mutilation we have just seen from
Dr. Cole, once we get our breathe back after such a pathetic show of
nastiness, many things are to come. E.g.,

1. Those interested in the controversial issues of the day and
concerning the Baha'i community, can get back to their debates and
studies free of any association with religious hate peddlers. There
are many reputable, honorable people who can now pursue their
investigation of truth without fear of being associated with malicious
religious fanatics.

2. Numerous questions remain on the Juan Cole case itself, since it
seems the preliminary investigation is about done. How did he and a
self-proclaimed "team" so apparently nefarious and disreputable that
the members names are reportedly secret, finance their activities?
Was there money from outside? etc. What makes this particular
element tick? The public surely has an continuing curiosity about
such bizarre and dark variations of human behavior. What hate bombs
are to come from Dr. Cole et al. and on and on? Is Dr. Cole like the
protagonist in some sort of freak Greek tragedy or a front for hate
groups rooted in other religions? You are right, sir, it is "going
on."

> As I understand it, Dr. Cole made a post to the....
>....
>.... Really sir, you confuse me. Is it your nature to jump


>into things headfirst without being the least bit informed?

Being confused may give rise to questions. You are then less likely
to say, "That's the end of it." The confusion (= lingering questions)
will motivate investigation. You can ask the questions. Go ahead and
research them. Email the data and join the effort to explore a truly
fascinating story in contemporary history!

Doctor Electron

unread,
Feb 9, 2002, 8:45:24 PM2/9/02
to
Long, long ago in far off talk.religion.bahai, jri...@my-deja.com
(Juan Cole) transmitted:

>Dear Dr. Electron, i.e. Peter Khan:

<insults, bad taste, conduct unbecoming of a faculty member snipped
here>

>cheers Juan

Hmmmm, insults, false information, then "cheers."

Notebook entry: What is the mental health history of Dr. Cole? How
is his family, if any, holding up? Will he offer up a "poor mental
health" defense at prospective U of M fact-finding committees, as he
seems to have done in previous forays into slander as reported
(correctly?) in the Fred G archives posted in TRB? Stay tuned!

Paul Hammond

unread,
Feb 9, 2002, 8:30:55 PM2/9/02
to

Please substantiate your repeated assertions of "religious hate
crimes"

Doctor Electron <globals...@remove.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:o4ib6u83ujtgu84fc...@4ax.com...

Mark Elderkin

unread,
Feb 9, 2002, 10:27:04 PM2/9/02
to
> I understand that there is a little shop there in Hong Kong right near
> the port where you can buy a mysterious sauce that will give you A
> SENSE OF HUMOR, since obviously you are suffering from some sort of
> serious genetic deficit in that department. We are all praying it can
> be repaired without surgery, and, indeed, that the condition is not
> fatal.

Juan baby.......... keep up the good work............ the hole is deepening
and the light is shrinking. Now...... let's see...... what were you a doctor
of ????? Oh yea........ I remember now............ great thinking.........
no that's not it................ Cleverness....................... no-no-no,
that's not it. Oh yea I remember now............... foot surgery. When you
finally get yours out make sure you don't step in some the piles you've left
behind. Wait........ don't I hear Tal 9 calling you...........Juannnnnnnn
Juannnnnn. Bye.


Doctor Electron

unread,
Feb 10, 2002, 12:45:16 AM2/10/02
to
Long, long ago in far off talk.religion.bahai, jri...@my-deja.com
(Juan Cole) transmitted:

>Dear Dr. Electron, i.e. Peter Khan:


>
>Pretty Good Privacy is just that--it is only pretty good.

Telecommunications lesson:
1. Person A is at any arbitrary location on earth.
2. News groups server is at any arbitrary location on earth.

Ergo,
1. Cannot conclude: news group server IP = person A IP.
2. You have re-discovered another waste of time.

Pat Kohli

unread,
Feb 10, 2002, 4:19:15 AM2/10/02
to
Allahu Abha!

Doctor Electron wrote:

> Long, long ago in far off talk.religion.bahai, jri...@my-deja.com
> (Juan Cole) transmitted:
>
> >Dear Dr. Electron, i.e. Peter Khan:
> >
> >Pretty Good Privacy is just that--it is only pretty good.

Looking at your headers I can see you are not in Haifa!

>
>
> Telecommunications lesson:
> 1. Person A is at any arbitrary location on earth.
> 2. News groups server is at any arbitrary location on earth.

This is true, but usually the News Group Message includes the originator
IP address. For example, person me posts through a news server in
Germany. Person me also connects at an ISP outside Germany. This
message might show an IP address of 208.10.126.87 which corresponds to
ameritel.net, in Southern Maryland, where I live. Someone else's IP
address might be 206.48.61.106 for Oak Hill Virginia. Peter Khan does
_not_ live in or near Oak Hill VA, but someone else does and that is why
someone who suggested that Peter Khan was contributing to this thread,
looks to be a bit off on this thread.


>
> Ergo,
> 1. Cannot conclude: news group server IP = person A IP.
> 2. You have re-discovered another waste of time.

So much more than that. Someone had alleged (before you got here) that
they can identify the author of various writings. It now appears to be
a(nother) bit of hoootery. Though maybe others can do this, they
apparently can not.

Blessings!
- Pat
ko...@ameritel.net

Dermod Ryder

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Feb 10, 2002, 5:46:57 AM2/10/02
to

"Doctor Electron" <globals...@remove.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:tr1c6uo9agctpahq3...@4ax.com...

> Long, long ago in far off talk.religion.bahai, jri...@my-deja.com
> (Juan Cole) transmitted:
>
> >Dear Dr. Electron, i.e. Peter Khan:
> >
> >Pretty Good Privacy is just that--it is only pretty good.
>
> Telecommunications lesson:
> 1. Person A is at any arbitrary location on earth.
> 2. News groups server is at any arbitrary location on earth.
>
> Ergo,
> 1. Cannot conclude: news group server IP = person A IP.
> 2. You have re-discovered another waste of time.

I'm not feeling the best this morning - heavy night .. I lie ...
veeerrry heavy night. You know what lodge night is like (Well No! You
wouldn't but take my word for it!) - big sampling session - Scotch
versus Irish malt whiskies. It cost me a quid or two but it was worth
it (the Irish were definitely the best!) - sort of payment for favours
done ... if you know what I mean. You know the US is only now
wakening up to the terrorist threat whereas we have lived with it for
many years past; so now the US comes here looking for techniques of
dealing with the terrorists. And of course, favours done need favours
returned - things like access to computer files and time. Now, not
the kind of computer that sits on your desk - do the words "kray
(sp?)" or "spy one (?)" or "aegis(?)" mean anything or "two
generations beyond that" - I'm not a techie like you - indeed I'm less
interested in the technology than the results. But what they said to
me, to cut a long story short, (incidentally, not for this but for
something else you owe me a bottle of Bushmills Malt - not the white
label, not the black label (which is pretty good) but the green - I'm
telling you this because I know you don't indulge as a good BIGS) was,
if I remember, strip out the server IP, access his files (?), break
any encryption and you're back to the machine the message came from.
Apparently all it needs is the right software and enough time. Since
you're not in the military/security services it was dead easy - after
all the encryption methods released for public use are obsolete as far
as the military is concerned otherwise they would not have been
cleared for public use and, of course, they know how to break them ...
otherwise they wouldn't release them.

So given the means exist of running you down ... the only question
is - "can I access them?"

Well what can I say? If I'm bluffing you're safe but if I'm not .....
but did you seriously think that I wouldn't check you out after you
came to me with that deal a while back? Let's face it, you came to me
because I'm the best around here and the one you needed to achieve
your life's wish. Now I've kept my side of the bargain but you have
grossly underperformed which, quite frankly, pisses me off ... you
haven't done what you said you would. In fact you've made a total
mess of it and I warned what would happen if you did that!

Now if you look through the archives you'll find loads of stuff
between me and Ramblin' Mick about the length of time it took for the
NSA to respond to Deborah Buchorn's complaint against an assembly in
New Mexico. Poor old Ramblin' Rick (you know there's an Irish tune
dedicated to him - "Rick's Rambles"; it's not very good but, sure,
neither is he) got quite upset at the way I revealed it took two
years - really upset and even more upset that I had this
"confidential" information but absolutely upset that I suckered him
into making very silly statements about it. My problem with you is
that I have to find a way of divulging your real identity without
compromising the source of that information. Add to that, Doc, the
fact that I 'm quite sadistic in my own way - I really enjoy watching
piss artists like you and the rest of your ilk, squirm. That's why I
sent you that little Okha and a "floating chrysanthemum" - you'll have
to check your history books for that reference but, sorry, I don't
spoon feed anybody, not even you. You have to complete this deal on
your own otherwise .... !

Dermod Ryder

unread,
Feb 10, 2002, 10:00:14 AM2/10/02
to

<mult...@aros.net> wrote in message
news:3c659b95....@news.aros.net...

None at all! It performs no service of any kind whatsoever to
mankind! It's a practical joke devised by some of the shrewdest guys
on earth and at that point any similarity between the original DST and
the poor imitation that used to appear on this place disappears
completely.

Now if you don't reply to this post the poor old DST won't get to see
it as I'm on her kill-file - snigger! snigger!

As ever,

Dermod.


Paul Hammond

unread,
Feb 10, 2002, 8:42:06 AM2/10/02