George "Splasher" Fleming aka Error
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
and
assistance to rehabilitate himself here on TRB and in Bahai-related
Cyberspace as a whole. My mail pulled no punches but, nonetheless, offered
a helping hand to him. He refused, countering with the usual threats and
instructions in a mail he copied to Paul, threatening that he will be
spamming my local council because of my membership of a committee, which
operates under its aegis, if both Paul and I do not cease from posting
comments that he does not like.
So the game is set. If I or Paul continue to speak freely, then
Error will carry out his threat to spam my local Council and others. If I'm
a good boy and Paul is too and do what we are told he'll even praise my
posts.
Error can spam my local Council all that he wants. He will simply get a
message that Mr. Ryder is no longer a member of the Committee to which he
refers. Until today I was a member of a Committee which operated under the
auspices of my local Council. It is a Committee representative of all
sections of the community established to help improve the safety of that
community
and oppose all forms of violence (including domestic violence) and sectarian
intimidation. There is no remuneration of any kind paid to the members
thereof.. They give of their time voluntarily to serve the community and
help build a better future. Its work is important and has borne fruit in a
number of ways.
Not to have resigned would have meant that precious Committee time would
have been wasted on investigation of a spurious complaint lodged by an
individual who cannot debate or discuss any subject in a rational manner and
who, at the end of the day, resorts to the use of threats and intimidation
to have posters adhere to his dictates.
Its work is too important to be interrupted in such a manner. My duty to it
was therefore clear and I have tendered my resignation. I recognise that in
so doing I am actually yielding to the threat but whilst it would have been
in my interest and my natural inclination not to resign, it is in the best
interests of the Committee that I do resign, that its work is not
interrupted. Unfortunately for me, this means that I have to withdraw from
participation in a promising innovative programme aimed at improving
community relations, which has achieved significant measurable positive
results to date.
Error has also indicated that he might be minded to spam other persons.
Specifically he has mentioned the teachers at my daughter's school. I have
not named that school here; to acquire its name Error would doubtless be
back to gossiping with his old biddies again, if he hasn't already done so .
I have advised my neighbours that he may be in contact with them; they are
looking forward to it with eager anticipation. They like to get the
low-down
on me. I have not shown them advance copies but having a shrewd idea what he
is likely to communicate to them, I've selected a few of his gems to add to
the jollity. Our Friday night club will never be the same again! He also,
he has told us, might be in contact with my wife, her relations and my
brother. What a foolish man to consider contacting my wife! If she, as she
does, frightens me, what would she do to Error? As for her relations, I'm
sure they'd have a good laugh, and if he can find my brother perhaps he can
tell me where he is, because I don't know!
In light of this I am therefore not yielding to his threats. I shall
continue to challenge and expose his dirty double dealing here and the
blatant sectarianism which underpins it. In one sense I can continue the
work that I previously did with the Committee by opposing that
sectarianism and standing firm against the threats and intimidation
that he makes to me and my family, whilst it can continue unhindered and
uninterrupted in its work.
So let's all settle down and await Error's latest spamfest - I reckon we
could be in for a lot of fun. I know that I will be and I hope that
everybody can join in and enjoy the party.
So - it's over to you, Splasher!
Seegar
MO...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>Not to have resigned would have meant that precious Committee time would
>have been wasted on investigation of a spurious complaint lodged by an
>individual who cannot debate or discuss any subject in a rational manner and
>who, at the end of the day, resorts to the use of threats and intimidation
>to have posters adhere to his dictates.
>Its work is too important to be interrupted in such a manner. My duty to it
>was therefore clear and I have tendered my resignation. I recognise that in
>so doing I am actually yielding to the threat but whilst it would have been
>in my interest and my natural inclination not to resign, it is in the best
>interests of the Committee that I do resign, that its work is not
>interrupted. Unfortunately for me, this means that I have to withdraw from
>participation in a promising innovative programme aimed at improving
>community relations, which has achieved significant measurable positive
>results to date.
Dermod,
The man has no shame. I seem to remember that George attends some sort
of naval reunion with old shipmates and officers. What would they
think of his worm like behavior of having to stoop to spam harassment
of people not involved in an argument? What would all his chums think
of Errol if someone who agreed with Errol's tactics were to spam these
good people nonstop and inform them of his behavior? Imagine the
choice tidbits that could be gleaned from Google. Imagine this done in
the manner and form of his infamous spam harassment of innocents who
don't want to be dragged into something that they have no part of?
All of this, because he cannot abide getting bested in reasoned debate
and when all else fails, in a hissy fit he initiates a campaign of
burning down the house with all inhabitants instead of engaging in
rational argument with those who have the temerity of pointing out
weakness in his argument.
This type of behavior is quite beyond the pale.
Peace,
Chris
errol9
> "errol9" <err...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:BB82484E.374F4%err...@ntlworld.com...
>> I am not asking to be judged as an abused innocent. On the contrary like
>> youhave stated about **equal** judgment, would you not agree I would be
>> equally within my right to send a selection of Dermods (insulting posts) to
>> his local Town Council were he happens to be a member of a certain committee
>> as he has already *POSTED* a selection my (insulting posts) to the Northern
>> Ireland Interfaith Forum last year?
>>
>> Dermod's object was to embarass me among members of Interfaith. Am I not
>> intitled to do likewise to him among his Town Council Members?
>
>
> Dermod's objective was to embarrass the BIGS of which you were, at that
> time, if you recollect, the loudest and most loyal member.
Dear subscribers to TRB'& ARB here is one line from Dermod's private post.
He admits here he sent copies of my TRB posts to the Northern Ireland
Interfaith and his only intention was to embarrass the BIGS, which included
me as I was still a Bahai at the time. The Forum has two Bahai AO members
Beman Kostravi (assistant to ABM) and Edwin Graham (secretary to NI Bahai
Council) I myself was never on this committee and therefore was never the
"loudest and most loyal member" as Dermod has stated I was.
I wonder did Dermod's friends Paul Hammond, his BIGS wife and his BIGS
friends Pat KOHLI and Brian Walker approve of Dermod's actions here?
Like wise, posters to TRB would agree now that I am an ex-Bahai I should
likewise be allowed to follow in Dermods footsteps, and send a number of
*his* offensive sectarian and rude posts to the following committee on the
Antrim District Policing Partnership to embarass the BIGs on this council.
http://www.antrim.gov.uk/index.cfm?website_Key=27&Category_key=123&Page_Key=
364
Antrim DPP consists of nineteen members.
Nine independent members of the public;
Mairead Burke, (Randalstown)
a volunteer working with children with learning difficulties
Andy Little, (Antrim) a company director and general manager
*Amal MaÄ…ani-Hessari*, (Antrim) a designer and managing director
Daniel Doherty, (Randalstown) a sub-postmaster
Oliver Frawley, (Crumlin) a teacher
Christine Keenan, (Randalstown) a Behaviour Nurse Therapist with Eastern
Health and Social Services Board
Heather Watson, (Antrim) a personal assistant at a Community Trust
Christine Ferrin, (Crumlin) a mentor and forum facilitator for the disabled
Pamela Surphlis, (Antrim) a housewife
*Amal MaÄ…ani-Hessari*, (Antrim) a designer and managing director is a top
Persian Bahai AO member well known among Bahai and business circles.
Surely Paul Hammond, BIGS Pat Kohli, Brian Walker Susan Maneck Sekmet Alma
Karen who it seems approved of Dermod's actions in reporting me all over
the place will not object If I do likewise to Dermod, all in the good name
of embarrassing the Bahais of Narthern Ireland
Interesting Dermod is not on the Antrim District Policing Partnership. But
then neither was I on the committee of the NI Interfaith Forum. But that
never stopped Dermod from sending a barragge of my TRB posts to the
Interfaith Forum supported by his friends and numerous BIGS on TRB.
So why should I be castigated for following in Dermod's footsteps?
Errol
in article bjoetj$cq0$4...@sparta.btinternet.com, Dermod Ryder at grim_reaper
MO...@btinternet.com wrote on 11/9/03 12:16 am:
errol9
sendither...@hotmail.com wrote on 11/9/03 5:14 am:
This is nothing to do about reasoned debate and you know rightly you sly
BIGS who is trying to throw more poison into the well......Errol
> Peace,
>
> Chris
>
>
>
errol9
sendither...@hotmail.com wrote on 11/9/03 5:14 am:
> On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:16:52 +0000 (UTC), "Dermod Ryder" <grim_reaper
> MO...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Not to have resigned would have meant that precious Committee time would
>> have been wasted on investigation of a spurious complaint lodged by an
>> individual who cannot debate or discuss any subject in a rational manner and
>> who, at the end of the day, resorts to the use of threats and intimidation
>> to have posters adhere to his dictates.
>> Its work is too important to be interrupted in such a manner. My duty to it
>> was therefore clear and I have tendered my resignation. I recognise that in
>> so doing I am actually yielding to the threat but whilst it would have been
>> in my interest and my natural inclination not to resign, it is in the best
>> interests of the Committee that I do resign, that its work is not
>> interrupted. Unfortunately for me, this means that I have to withdraw from
>> participation in a promising innovative programme aimed at improving
>> community relations, which has achieved significant measurable positive
>> results to date.
>
> Dermod,
>
> The man has no shame. I seem to remember that George attends some sort
> of naval reunion with old shipmates and officers. What would they
> think of his worm like behavior of having to stoop to spam harassment
> of people not involved in an argument?
How come you never said the same thing about Dermod, when he spammed my
posts to the Northern ireland Interfaith forum?
Am I not intitled to do likewise?..............Errol
on 8/9/03 8:43 pm, Dermod Ryder at grim_re...@btinternet.com wrote:
> "errol9" <err...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:BB82484E.374F4%err...@ntlworld.com...
>> I am not asking to be judged as an abused innocent. On the contrary like
>> youhave stated about **equal** judgment, would you not agree I would be
>> equally within my right to send a selection of Dermods (insulting posts) to
>> his local Town Council were he happens to be a member of a certain committee
>> as he has already *POSTED* a selection my (insulting posts) to the Northern
>> Ireland Interfaith Forum last year?
>>
>> Dermod's object was to embarass me among members of Interfaith. Am I not
>> intitled to do likewise to him among his Town Council Members?
>
>
> Dermod's objective was to embarrass the BIGS of which you were, at that
> time, if you recollect, the loudest and most loyal member.
What would all his chums think
errol9
sendither...@hotmail.com wrote on 11/9/03 5:14 am:
> Dermod,
>
> The man has no shame. I seem to remember that George attends some sort
> of naval reunion with old shipmates and officers. What would they
> think of his worm like behavior of having to stoop to spam harassment
> of people not involved in an argument? What would all his chums think
> of Errol if someone who agreed with Errol's tactics were to spam these
> good people nonstop and inform them of his behavior? Imagine the
> choice tidbits that could be gleaned from Google. Imagine this done in
> the manner and form of his infamous spam harassment of innocents who
> don't want to be dragged into something that they have no part of?
>
> All of this, because he cannot abide getting bested in reasoned debate
> and when all else fails, in a hissy fit he initiates a campaign of
> burning down the house with all inhabitants instead of engaging in
> rational argument with those who have the temerity of pointing out
> weakness in his argument.
>
> This type of behavior is quite beyond the pale.
>
> Peace,
>
> Chris
Chris your like the Baha'i who says, its only our Navy that is allowed to
have submarines blessed by Bahau'llah All those other Navies who use
submarines for undercover dirty work are evil men.......Errol
Paul Hammond
> On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:16:52 +0000 (UTC), "Dermod Ryder" <grim_reaper
> MO...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Not to have resigned would have meant that precious Committee time would
> >have been wasted on investigation of a spurious complaint lodged by an
> >individual who cannot debate or discuss any subject in a rational manner and
> >who, at the end of the day, resorts to the use of threats and intimidation
> >to have posters adhere to his dictates.
> >Its work is too important to be interrupted in such a manner. My duty to it
> >was therefore clear and I have tendered my resignation. I recognise that in
> >so doing I am actually yielding to the threat but whilst it would have been
> >in my interest and my natural inclination not to resign, it is in the best
> >interests of the Committee that I do resign, that its work is not
> >interrupted. Unfortunately for me, this means that I have to withdraw from
> >participation in a promising innovative programme aimed at improving
> >community relations, which has achieved significant measurable positive
> >results to date.
>
> Dermod,
>
> The man has no shame. I seem to remember that George attends some sort
> of naval reunion with old shipmates and officers. What would they
> think of his worm like behavior of having to stoop to spam harassment
> of people not involved in an argument? What would all his chums think
> of Errol if someone who agreed with Errol's tactics were to spam these
> good people nonstop and inform them of his behavior?
That sounds like a good idea, Chris!
I'm sure Paula is fully capable of looking after herself - but
what *would* former naval officers think of a "man" who, because
he can't win a fair argument on trb, attempts to threaten
a man's wife and daughter?
Imagine the
> choice tidbits that could be gleaned from Google. Imagine this done in
> the manner and form of his infamous spam harassment of innocents who
> don't want to be dragged into something that they have no part of?
>
> All of this, because he cannot abide getting bested in reasoned debate
> and when all else fails, in a hissy fit he initiates a campaign of
> burning down the house with all inhabitants instead of engaging in
> rational argument with those who have the temerity of pointing out
> weakness in his argument.
>
How dare we ask him to justify anything he says? What were we
thinking? How can we have *been* so unfair?
> This type of behavior is quite beyond the pale.
>
But, unfortunately, totally normal for ole whiner.
Indeed, he *even* thinks that he is only doing something
that we started!
He complains about hate mail - but the hate mail is only
coming in one direction - fizzing and sparking from the
keyboard of Splasher George.
I find that I can't hate him, only pity him. Because,
surely, being a little worm like him must be a terrible
thing to be.
Paul
Paul Hammond
Posting one letter to the Northern Ireland Interfaith forum,
to alert them to the presence of a Protestant bigot amongst
them, does not constite spam.
THere is no "likewise" about what you are doing.
Oh, and stay the fuck out of my inbox. You are not welcome
there.
Paul
errol9
errol9
paha...@onetel.net.uk wrote on 11/9/03 12:56 pm:
>
> Posting one letter to the Northern Ireland Interfaith forum,
> to alert them to the presence of a Protestant bigot amongst
> them, does not constite spam.
Prior to me resigning last year Dermod Ryder posted two letters along with
selection of my posts from TRB to the Chairman of the Inter Faith Forum in
Stranmillis college and the second letter ( plus posts) to Edwin Graham (
secretary of the Interfaith Forum and secretary of the Bahai Council for
Northern Ireland)
I should know because both of those memtioned contacted me about Dermods
letters and Posts.
If Dermod told you a different story he is a liar. Undoubtly he was
supported 100% by Pat Kohli to do me as much harm as possible.
Dermod also sent his wife out an to old Bahai lady (in her 70's) and kept
the poor woman up to three in the morning showing the woman evey post he had
taken from TRB. It took his wife 4-5 hrs to go through all the posts, most
of the posts were not to her husband Dermod at all.
The reason I know this is true because the woman wrote a five page account
of it all and sent a copy to the Belfast LSA, the Northern Ireland Bahai
Council and the UK NSA and two ABM's plus a copy to myself.........Errol
Paul Hammond
> in article c977f97b.03091...@posting.google.com, Paul Hammond at
> paha...@onetel.net.uk wrote on 11/9/03 12:56 pm:
>
> >
> > Posting one letter to the Northern Ireland Interfaith forum,
> > to alert them to the presence of a Protestant bigot amongst
> > them, does not constite spam.
>
> Prior to me resigning last year Dermod Ryder posted two letters along with
> selection of my posts from TRB to the Chairman of the Inter Faith Forum in
> Stranmillis college and the second letter ( plus posts) to Edwin Graham (
> secretary of the Interfaith Forum and secretary of the Bahai Council for
> Northern Ireland)
>
> I should know because both of those memtioned contacted me about Dermods
> letters and Posts.
>
I think it is hilarious that you don't know the difference
between spam and ordinary conduct.
One letter, two letters - that doesn't constitute spam.
Lecture us about spam when you've decided to stop
spamming my inbox, and stamping your little foot and
threatening to spam anyone who disagrees with you.
I fully support Dermod's efforts to expose you for
the bigotted, whining bastard that you are.
Paul
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
> Prior to me resigning last year Dermod Ryder posted two letters along with
> selection of my posts from TRB to the Chairman of the Inter Faith Forum in
> Stranmillis college and the second letter ( plus posts) to Edwin Graham (
> secretary of the Interfaith Forum and secretary of the Bahai Council for
> Northern Ireland)
At that time Mr Graham was not listed as the Secretary of the InterFaith
Forum and my letter was not sent to him.
> I should know because both of those mentioned contacted me about Dermods
> letters and Posts.
>
> If Dermod told you a different story he is a liar. Undoubtly he was
> supported 100% by Pat Kohli to do me as much harm as possible.
Mr Kohli was not involved at all in this.
> Dermod also sent his wife out an to old Bahai lady (in her 70's) and kept
> the poor woman up to three in the morning showing the woman evey post he
had
> taken from TRB. It took his wife 4-5 hrs to go through all the posts,
most
> of the posts were not to her husband Dermod at all.
I sent my wife nowhere to see anybody and I certainly sent her to no Feast,
which I believe was the occasion of the meeting to which you refer.. She is
an independent thinking
person quite capable of acting on her own initiative in any way that she
thinks is right. Furthermore, as a BIGS, she was concerned at your bringing
yourself and the religion to which you were then subscribed, in common with
her, into extreme disrepute.
> The reason I know this is true because the woman wrote a five page account
> of it all and sent a copy to the Belfast LSA, the Northern Ireland Bahai
> Council and the UK NSA and two ABM's plus a copy to myself.........Errol
Post it that my wife can see if it is truthful!
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
> > Dermod's objective was to embarrass the BIGS of which you were, at that
> > time, if you recollect, the loudest and most loyal member.
>
> Dear subscribers to TRB'& ARB here is one line from Dermod's private post.
> He admits here he sent copies of my TRB posts to the Northern Ireland
> Interfaith and his only intention was to embarrass the BIGS, which
included
> me as I was still a Bahai at the time. The Forum has two Bahai AO members
> Beman Kostravi (assistant to ABM) and Edwin Graham (secretary to NI Bahai
> Council) I myself was never on this committee and therefore was never the
> "loudest and most loyal member" as Dermod has stated I was.
Just where exactly did I say that you were the "loudest and most loyal
member" of the Forum? Were you to read exactly what I wrote - it actually
states that you were the "loudest and most loyal member" of the BIGS.
> I wonder did Dermod's friends Paul Hammond, his BIGS wife and his BIGS
> friends Pat KOHLI and Brian Walker approve of Dermod's actions here?
I wonder too as I never asked for their approval or co-operation or
assistance. Indeed if you remember I did not advertise the fact that I had
written to the IFF - you did that. My objective was indeed to embarrass the
BIGS ... into taking action to force you to cease and desist from your
expression of rabid sectarianism which soiled this forum.
Though I have little respect and even less time for the AO, I loathe and
detest sectarianism. When you passed yourself off as a member of the IFF,
you brought it into disrepute. It was entitled to know of that and to take
such measures as it thought appropriate. I never asked and was not told
what it did in this respect. But no organisation which is established to
foster better community relations can tolerate a member whose utterances run
contrary to its aims and ethos. I left the IFF to sort this matter out in
its own time and space.
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
"Paul Hammond" <paha...@onetel.net.uk> wrote in message
news:c977f97b.03091...@posting.google.com...
> Posting one letter to the Northern Ireland Interfaith forum,
> to alert them to the presence of a Protestant bigot amongst
> them, does not constite spam.
Mr. Fleming claimed membership of the InterFaith Forum as proof that he was
not a sectarian bigot. In as much as he had clearly demonstrated that he
was in fact one, I believe it was right that he not be allowed to bring the
InterFaith Forum into disrepute, by its being informed what a member was
actually saying.
The Northern Ireland InterFaith Forum
http://www.community-relations.org.uk/progs/church/directory/dir2.htm
N.I. Interfaith Forum
When established:
May 1993
Main aims:
To promote friendship and mutual understanding across the spectrum of
religious and ethnic life in Northern Ireland.
Main activities:
Regular quarterly meetings for public discussion; seminars and
conferences.
NIIF is currently working on resources for educational needs, school
visits, etc. NIIF is the principle sponsor of the prayer and mediation
area in Belfast International Airport.
Churches involved:
Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, Church of Ireland, Hinduism, Buddhism,
Methodist, Non-Subscribing Presbyterian, Bah'ai, Islam, Judaism.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Forum received a grant of £3000 from the Community Relations
Council towards the provision of the facility at the International
Airport.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
30 September 2002
To the Chairman and Secretary of the Northern Ireland InterFaith Forum.
Gentlemen,
I have attached to this letter, a selection of posts made to USENET -
Talk.Religion.Bahai by George Fleming who has described himself as a
Bahai and member of the Inter Faith Forum since its foundation.
Mr Fleming appears to think that it is legitimate to attack, with
grossly insulting language, the core beliefs of certain individuals
who criticise the praxis, but not the underlying beliefs or
philosophy, of the Faith to which he belongs. It should also be
emphasised that he has attributed membership of the Catholic Church to
one who does not describe himself as such, who was "born" a Catholic
but has long since left it. He also appears to believe that none
could perceive him as bigoted in respect of these remarks: -
"One final note Millisa before I go, in reply to your recent posts on
the
Catholic issue as a member of the Northern Ireland Inter faith forum
since
the forum began eight years ago I have numerous friends both
Protestant and
Catholic and none of them would see me as a bigot. I have never been a
member of the Orange Order which Nima seems to think everyone who is
not a
Catholic in this country belong to this institution, even if they are
a
member of the Baha'I faith."
USENET is a public access website; the messages are archived and
available to anybody with a web browser.
I do not believe that membership of the Interfaith Forum is compatible
with the making of the remarks in the attached posts, particularly as
the Forum has received public funding in respect of projects and is
supported by the Community Relations Council.
It would be appropriate to note that I (and others) are considering or
commencing legal proceedings against Mr Fleming for alleged libels in
the exchanges of which these posts are a part. None of the posts
containing the alleged libels are attached, although a quotation from
one is noted above.
I should be glad to render any further help or explanations as you
might wish to have in examining this affair or give any assistance I
can. Bearing in mind that this is an international forum and that Mr
Fleming is perceived to come from a Protestant background, he has ill
served that community by giving or reinforcing an impression that it
is composed of anti-Catholic bigots.
I believe that Mr Fleming should be forthwith removed from membership
of the InterFaith Forum.
Yours Sincerely,
Dermod Ryder.
Attachments included such as:-
"Oh! bring on Father Jack Hacket the priest with his own lingo. I bet he was
not an ex Baha'i. What are "Arsebiscuits" the biscuits they dish out at
mass? Interesting all you need to do is sctatch the surface by sending a
newspaper article on priests who commited sex abuse on a large scale
throughout the US to TRB and up go the defense barriers and accusations of
bigotry. Next these two will be bringing in bishops, cardinals and the
Jesuits with their counter reformation PR to defend the old polish pope's
infallability."
"Remembering you have not included the canon man made law of
(hands on "hocus pocus" miracle preformed by the Priests to trick the
parishioners into believing the Priest is a magician) also Orangeism only
started in 1795 and the Protestant reformation by Luther and other reformers
happened nearly 3 centuries earlier in 1517. Transubstatiation, Indulgences
(buying ones soul out of hell) the confession of sins and receiving
absolution from a priest for money, were and still are considered
corruptions by all other Christian sects not only Protestant."
"And what are many Catholic priests and Bishops doing today in the US and
all
over western Europe. Forby having sex with underage Children and at the same
time being allowed to practice "Transubstantion" in the Mass, what a sick
religion you and filthy mouth Dermod belong to then you have a cheek to
attack the Baha'i Faith."
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
> and when all else fails, in a hissy fit he initiates a campaign of
> burning down the house with all inhabitants instead of engaging in
> rational argument with those who have the temerity of pointing out
> weakness in his argument.
>
> This type of behavior is quite beyond the pale.
Thanks, Chris, I appreciate this, especially as, to the best of my
recollection, we have never agreed on anything up until now.
I would not, for one moment suggest that anybody engage in a spamming
contest. It would be totally counter productive. The spammer is the one
who emerges worst from the activity. He is universally execrated. I do
appreciate what you're saying, of course; he who spams the most will howl
the harder when spammed against. But it would not help at all if he had a
genuine case of being spammed against to howl about. I leave the spammer to
his own devices for within them lie his own downfall at his own hands.
The best thing always has been and will be to engage in dialogue and
argument, however heated, however intense the fury of the flame. It is the
mark of the civilised being that he engages in debate and discussion seeking
not so much to convert an opponent but to have him understand and comprehend
another's POV. To descend to the vile tactics of the uninformed is to
undermine the value of that verbal engagement with those with whom one does
not agree.
I like unmoderated fora on the NET - I will not be driven from them or
forced to change my views or practice other than by the power of the
intellectual argument presented. I especially value the way in which the
vast majority of posters here abide by the unwritten code of Netiquette and
engage in honourable combat
errol9
It is obvious you still wish to send hate mail to me on TRB. So you have
left me with no alternative but to carry out the following. Within the next
week I will be downloading a selection of MR Ryders obscene and sectarian
posts he sent me on TRB, and will be forwarding them on along with MR
Ryder's telephone No and address to the Antrim District Policing Partnership
http://www.antrim.gov.uk/index.cfm?website_Key=27&Category_key=123&Page_Key=
364 jim.mc...@antrim.gov.uk or mairea...@antrim.gov.uk
Likewise every councillor will receive a copy...............Errol
The Councillors represent the following Political Parties:
Â
Thomas Burns   SDLP      Â
Wilson Clyde  DUP
Adrian Cochrane Watson   UUP
Samuel Dunlop  DUP
Brian Graham  DUP
William Harkness  DUP
Oran Keenan  SDLP
Bobby Loughran  SDLP
Donovan McClelland  SDLP
Martin McManus  SF
Paddy Marks  UUP
Martin Meehan  SF
Paul Michael   UUP
Stephen Nicholl   UUP
Mervyn Rea   UUP
Drew Ritchie  UUP
John Smyth  DUP
Roy Thompson  UUP
Edgar Wallace   UUP
jim.mc...@antrim.gov.uk or mairea...@antrim.gov.uk
on 8/9/03 8:43 pm, Dermod Ryder at grim_re...@btinternet.com wrote:
> "errol9" <err...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:BB82484E.374F4%err...@ntlworld.com...
>> I am not asking to be judged as an abused innocent. On the contrary like
>> youhave stated about **equal** judgment, would you not agree I would be
>> equally within my right to send a selection of Dermods (insulting posts) to
>> his local Town Council were he happens to be a member of a certain committee
>> as he has already *POSTED* a selection my (insulting posts) to the Northern
>> Ireland Interfaith Forum last year?
>>
>> Dermod's object was to embarass me among members of Interfaith. Am I not
>> intitled to do likewise to him among his Town Council Members?
>
>
> Dermod's objective was to embarrass the BIGS of which you were, at that
> time, if you recollect, the loudest and most loyal member.
Dear subscribers to TRB'& ARB here is one line from Dermod's private post.
He admits here he sent copies of my TRB posts to the Northern Ireland
Interfaith and his only intention was to embarrass the BIGS, which included
me as I was still a Bahai at the time. The Forum has two Bahai AO members
Beman Kostravi (assistant to ABM) and Edwin Graham (secretary to NI Bahai
Council) I myself was never on this committee and therefore was never the
"loudest and most loyal member" as Dermod has stated I was.
I wonder did Dermod's friends Paul Hammond, his BIGS wife and his BIGS
friends Pat KOHLI and Brian Walker approve of Dermod's actions here?
Like wise, posters to TRB would agree now that I am an ex-Bahai I should
likewise be allowed to follow in Dermods footsteps, and send a number of
*his* offensive sectarian and rude posts to the following committee on the
Antrim District Policing Partnership to embarass the BIGs on this council.
http://www.antrim.gov.uk/index.cfm?website_Key=27&Category_key=123&Page_Key=
364
Antrim DPP consists of nineteen members.
Nine independent members of the public;
Mairead Burke, (Randalstown)
a volunteer working with children with learning difficulties
Andy Little, (Antrim) a company director and general manager
*Amal Ma¹ani-Hessari*, (Antrim) a designer and managing director
Daniel Doherty, (Randalstown) a sub-postmaster
Oliver Frawley, (Crumlin) a teacher
Christine Keenan, (Randalstown) a Behaviour Nurse Therapist with Eastern
Health and Social Services Board
Heather Watson, (Antrim) a personal assistant at a Community Trust
Christine Ferrin, (Crumlin) a mentor and forum facilitator for the disabled
Pamela Surphlis, (Antrim) a housewife
*Amal Ma¹ani-Hessari*, (Antrim) a designer and managing director is a top
Persian Bahai AO member well known among Bahai and business circles.
Surely Paul Hammond, BIGS Pat Kohli, Brian Walker Susan Maneck Sekmet Alma
Karen who it seems approved of Dermod's actions in reporting me all over
the place will not object If I do likewise to Dermod, all in the good name
of embarrassing the Bahais of Narthern Ireland
Interesting Dermod is not on the Antrim District Policing Partnership. But
then neither was I on the committee of the NI Interfaith Forum. But that
never stopped Dermod from sending a barragge of my TRB posts to the
Interfaith Forum supported by his friends and numerous BIGS on TRB.
So why should I be castigated for following in Dermod's footsteps?
Errol
in article bjoetj$cq0$4...@sparta.btinternet.com, Dermod Ryder at grim_reaper
MO...@btinternet.com wrote on 11/9/03 12:16 am:
> Some forty eight hours ago I wrote off-list to Error offering him a chance
> and
> assistance to rehabilitate himself here on TRB and in Bahai-related
> Cyberspace as a whole. My mail pulled no punches but, nonetheless, offered
> a helping hand to him. He refused, countering with the usual threats and
> instructions in a mail he copied to Paul, threatening that he will be
> spamming my local council because of my membership of a committee, which
> operates under its aegis, if both Paul and I do not cease from posting
> comments that he does not like.
>
> So the game is set. If I or Paul continue to speak freely, then
> Error will carry out his threat to spam my local Council and others. If I'm
> a good boy and Paul is too and do what we are told he'll even praise my
> posts.
>
> Error can spam my local Council all that he wants. He will simply get a
> message that Mr. Ryder is no longer a member of the Committee to which he
> refers. Until today I was a member of a Committee which operated under the
> auspices of my local Council. It is a Committee representative of all
> sections of the community established to help improve the safety of that
> community
> and oppose all forms of violence (including domestic violence) and sectarian
> intimidation. There is no remuneration of any kind paid to the members
> thereof.. They give of their time voluntarily to serve the community and
> help build a better future. Its work is important and has borne fruit in a
> number of ways.
>
> Not to have resigned would have meant that precious Committee time would
> have been wasted on investigation of a spurious complaint lodged by an
> individual who cannot debate or discuss any subject in a rational manner and
> who, at the end of the day, resorts to the use of threats and intimidation
> to have posters adhere to his dictates.
> Its work is too important to be interrupted in such a manner. My duty to it
> was therefore clear and I have tendered my resignation. I recognise that in
> so doing I am actually yielding to the threat but whilst it would have been
> in my interest and my natural inclination not to resign, it is in the best
> interests of the Committee that I do resign, that its work is not
> interrupted. Unfortunately for me, this means that I have to withdraw from
> participation in a promising innovative programme aimed at improving
> community relations, which has achieved significant measurable positive
> results to date.
>
errol9
MO...@btinternet.com wrote on 11/9/03 11:30 pm:
You downloaded all my posts for your wife to take to an old 70 year old
Bahai. You dont go to see a single woman for a feast, when its not a feast
day. It is obvious you and Paul still wish to send hate mail to me on TRB.
jim.mc...@antrim.gov.uk or mairea...@antrim.gov.uk
on 8/9/03 8:43 pm, Dermod Ryder at grim_re...@btinternet.com wrote:
> "errol9" <err...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:BB82484E.374F4%err...@ntlworld.com...
>> I am not asking to be judged as an abused innocent. On the contrary like
>> youhave stated about **equal** judgment, would you not agree I would be
>> equally within my right to send a selection of Dermods (insulting posts) to
>> his local Town Council were he happens to be a member of a certain committee
>> as he has already *POSTED* a selection my (insulting posts) to the Northern
>> Ireland Interfaith Forum last year?
>>
>> Dermod's object was to embarass me among members of Interfaith. Am I not
>> intitled to do likewise to him among his Town Council Members?
>
>
> Dermod's objective was to embarrass the BIGS of which you were, at that
> time, if you recollect, the loudest and most loyal member.
Dear subscribers to TRB'& ARB here is one line from Dermod's private post.
Errol
> Some forty eight hours ago I wrote off-list to Error offering him a chance
> and
> assistance to rehabilitate himself here on TRB and in Bahai-related
> Cyberspace as a whole. My mail pulled no punches but, nonetheless, offered
> a helping hand to him. He refused, countering with the usual threats and
> instructions in a mail he copied to Paul, threatening that he will be
> spamming my local council because of my membership of a committee, which
> operates under its aegis, if both Paul and I do not cease from posting
> comments that he does not like.
>
> So the game is set. If I or Paul continue to speak freely, then
> Error will carry out his threat to spam my local Council and others. If I'm
> a good boy and Paul is too and do what we are told he'll even praise my
> posts.
>
> Error can spam my local Council all that he wants. He will simply get a
> message that Mr. Ryder is no longer a member of the Committee to which he
> refers. Until today I was a member of a Committee which operated under the
> auspices of my local Council. It is a Committee representative of all
> sections of the community established to help improve the safety of that
> community
> and oppose all forms of violence (including domestic violence) and sectarian
> intimidation. There is no remuneration of any kind paid to the members
> thereof.. They give of their time voluntarily to serve the community and
> help build a better future. Its work is important and has borne fruit in a
> number of ways.
>
> Not to have resigned would have meant that precious Committee time would
> have been wasted on investigation of a spurious complaint lodged by an
> individual who cannot debate or discuss any subject in a rational manner and
> who, at the end of the day, resorts to the use of threats and intimidation
> to have posters adhere to his dictates.
> Its work is too important to be interrupted in such a manner. My duty to it
> was therefore clear and I have tendered my resignation. I recognise that in
> so doing I am actually yielding to the threat but whilst it would have been
> in my interest and my natural inclination not to resign, it is in the best
> interests of the Committee that I do resign, that its work is not
> interrupted. Unfortunately for me, this means that I have to withdraw from
> participation in a promising innovative programme aimed at improving
> community relations, which has achieved significant measurable positive
> results to date.
>
errol9
from Interfaith membership as well as embarrass the BIGS. Tell me did your
wife approve of you sending this letter to embarrass her loyal Bahai friends
Beman Kostravi and Edwin Graham? Like wise here is proof child sex abuse
happened within the Catholic church. And the people who are up in arms are
the catholic themselves. You and your wife live in denial over this.
Errol
From today's New York Times:
January 31, 2002
Catholic Church in Ireland to Pay $110 Million to Abuse Victims
By BRIAN LAVERY
DUBLIN, Jan. 31 ‹ The Roman Catholic Church has agreed to pay $110 million
in compensation to people who suffered sexual or physical abuse as children
while committed to reform schools run by religious orders.
The agreement between 18 orders and the Irish government indemnifies the
orders from any future legal claims from any child-abuse victims who accept
the compensation.
Some 150,000 Irish children passed through the institutions, a mix of work
camps and boarding schools, from the early 20th century through the 1990's,
and 20,000 are alive today. More than 3,500 adults have applied for hearings
at a court-run inquiry that was set up two years ago to investigate claims
of abuse, and also simply to provide a sympathetic forum for people to tell
their stories.
More than 20 priests, brothers and nuns have already been convicted of
molesting children, with much of the abuse taking place in state-financed,
church-run schools.
People who went through the residential schooling system have criticized the
deal as insufficient.
Of the $110 million, religious orders will contribute $33 million in cash,
$69 million in property assets and $8.6 million toward counseling services.
But the deal, reached late Wednesday, includes $43 million in property
already transferred from the orders to the government, so very little in new
money is being added. And the Irish taxpayer will end up paying for the
remainder.
Depending on how many people seek redress through the new plan, the total
cost of compensation could run as high as $430 million.
"We accept that some children in residential institutions managed by our
members suffered deprivation, physical and sexual abuse," said Sister
Elizabeth Maxwell, secretary general of the Conference of Religious in
Ireland.
"We regret that. We apologize for it. We can never take away the pain
experienced at the time by those children, nor the shadow left over their
adult
lives."
The current wave of controversy over the residential schools started in
1999, when the Irish state broadcasting service R.T.E. ran a series of
television documentaries about the systemic physical and sexual abuse of
children in the church-run institutions.
The programs put a human face on the victims of the schools' legendary
brutality, and revealed the extent to which many institutions were
essentially profitable farms or manufacturing operations based on unpaid
child labor.
Instead of learning to read, children made shoes, sewed pillow cases and
tilled fields; for misbehavior or trying to return to their families, they
risked beatings by priests or nuns.
Many children were committed to the institutions not because they were
bereft of adult care, but because destitute parents or single mothers were
deemed "unsuitable guardians" by state authorities; the church even sent
priests to look for single mothers with suitable children.
Once there, they faced routine humiliation and violence, and malnutrition so
dire that they stole communion wafers, or ate grass while working outdoors,
to keep from starving.
Religious orders described the compensation package as a generous and
significant offer.
"My one reservation would be that the good work that is being done by the
religious could in any way be damaged by the great burden that this will
place on their resources," Auxiliary Bishop Eamonn Walsh said.
The orders' supporters point out that the harmful actions of relatively few
child abusers have irreparably damaged the reputations of many honorable
nuns and priests. But victims' organizations counter that even the innocent
members are complicit in the abuse, because they failed to speak out against
their colleagues.
in article bjr0i1$8nn$5...@sparta.btinternet.com, Dermod Ryder at grim_reaper
MO...@btinternet.com wrote on 11/9/03 11:30 pm:
>
errol9
MO...@btinternet.com wrote on 11/9/03 11:30 pm:
>
> "Paul Hammond" <paha...@onetel.net.uk> wrote in message
> news:c977f97b.03091...@posting.google.com...
>> Posting one letter to the Northern Ireland Interfaith forum,
>> to alert them to the presence of a Protestant bigot amongst
>> them, does not constite spam.
>
>
> Mr. Fleming claimed membership of the InterFaith Forum as proof that he was
> not a sectarian bigot. In as much as he had clearly demonstrated that he
> was in fact one, I believe it was right that he not be allowed to bring the
> InterFaith Forum into disrepute, by its being informed what a member was
> actually saying.
So Dermod thinks calling someone a "PROD BASTARD" has nothing to do with
sectarianism from his side of the fence?.
I ask Dermod to produce evidence were I called him a *Taig bastard*
Here evidence for the Antriim Council that Dermod is a sectarian Bigot who
called me a *PROD BASTARD* at a time when I was still a member of the Bahai
Faith......................................Errol
Groups search result 5 for Dermod Ryder **Prod bastard**
group:talk.religion.bahai group:talk.religion.bahaiÂ
Search Result 5From: Dermod Ryder (grim_rea...@btinternet.com)
Date: 2003-05-30 08:30:02 PST
Now there's bigotry for you! I keep telling this **Prod bastard** that I
am not a Taig bastard and he keeps on calling me one. Is it any
wonder agnostic bastards like me get annoyed with religiously bigoted
bastards like him?
No shit, Georgie! Is somebody around here calling the Grumpies at the
House of Pancakes, "disgraceful filthy names". You tell me who it is
and I'll knock his pan in for you. But here you'd better be careful
going off and attacking the Vatican - it's full of Fenians who might
not take too kindly to that. The Swiss Guard might give you a good
diggin'.
But you go straight ahead like the Rev'd Ian and call old "Red Socks"
anything you want to. I doubt he'll listen to you.
Dermod.
errol9
MO...@btinternet.com wrote on 11/9/03 11:30 pm:
> not a sectarian bigot. In as much as he had clearly demonstrated that he
> was in fact one, I believe it was right that he not be allowed to bring the
> InterFaith Forum into disrepute, by its being informed what a member was
> actually saying.
Search Result 4From: Dermod Ryder (Grim_Re...@btinternet.com)
Subject: Re: NESARA GIFTING View: Complete Thread (287 articles)
Original FormatNewsgroups: talk.religion.bahai
Date: 2003-05-16 04:17:50 PST
Dermod said: "I would view the expression "Prod bigot" as a description of a
professed or perceived Protestant who is bigoted against professed or
perceived Catholics. The expressions "Orange Bastard" or "Prod
Bastard" are totally different - they are hate-filled expressions of
bigotry made by a professed or perceived Catholic and are as
despicable and offensive in their own way as "Fenian".
Here evidence for the Antriim Council that Dermod is a **hate-filled**
sectarian Bigot who called me a *PROD BASTARD* at a time when I was still a
member of the Bahai Faith.
Evidence inclosed of Dermod's hate filled sectarianism:
Groups search result 5 for Dermod Ryder **Prod bastard**
group:talk.religion.bahai group:talk.religion.bahaiÂ
Search Result 5From: Dermod Ryder (grim_rea...@btinternet.com)
Date: 2003-05-30 08:30:02 PST
Now there's bigotry for you! I keep telling this **Prod bastard** that I
am not a Taig bastard and he keeps on calling me one. Is it any
wonder agnostic bastards like me get annoyed with religiously bigoted
bastards like him?
Dermod.
In his above post Dermod admits by his own pen "The expressions "Orange
Bastard" or "Prod Bastard" are totally different - they are hate-filled
expressions of bigotry made by a professed or perceived Catholic and are as
despicable and offensive in their own way as "Fenian".
I ask Dermod to produce evidence were I called him a *Taig bastard*
Those on TRB are not from Northern Ireland but I can assure them once the
Antrim Council receive Dermods posts from me, they will know how to judge
Dermod as a hate filed sectarian bigot from their local Council area
Errol
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
> Thank you Dermod for the real truth, so your object was to get me removed
> from Interfaith membership as well as embarrass the BIGS.
Had you not stated that you were a member of the IFF I would never have
written to it. But you claimed that you were a member and that this was
proof that you were not a bigot.
You made a number of scurrilous sectarian posts here. In so doing you
denied the aims of the IFF of which you claimed to be a member and brought
it into disrepute. The IFF receives public funds to carry out its work. It
cannot therefore harbour within its membership one whose words negate its
principles.
> Tell me did your
> wife approve of you sending this letter to embarrass her loyal Bahai
friends
> Beman Kostravi and Edwin Graham?
Does it matter? I don't my wife's approval for what I do and she doesn't
need mine. I don't order the "little woman" around - she's an adult, old
enough , bold enough and ugly enough to make up her own mind and do her own
thing without having to have my approval .... and vice versa. I'm also old
enough, bold enough and even uglier enough to do my own thing without ......
> Like wise here is proof child sex abuse
> happened within the Catholic church. And the people who are up in arms are
> the catholic themselves. You and your wife live in denial over this.
Why should it concern us? Neither of us is Catholic.
errol9
MO...@btinternet.com wrote on 12/9/03 9:54 am:
> You made a number of scurrilous sectarian posts here.
And so did you........Errol
errol9
MO...@btinternet.com wrote on 12/9/03 9:54 am:
> You made a number of scurrilous sectarian posts here. In so doing you
> denied the aims of the IFF of which you claimed to be a member and brought
> it into disrepute. The IFF receives public funds to carry out its work. It
> cannot therefore harbour within its membership one whose words negate its
> principles.
The Antrim Borough Council is paid for by the rate payers and they certainly
dont want any local citizen whos words also negate any of its non-sectarian
principles.
Paul Hammond
> Thank you Dermod for the real truth, so your object was to get me removed
> from Interfaith membership as well as embarrass the BIGS. Tell me did your
> wife approve of you sending this letter to embarrass her loyal Bahai friends
> Beman Kostravi and Edwin Graham? Like wise here is proof child sex abuse
> happened within the Catholic church. And the people who are up in arms are
> the catholic themselves. You and your wife live in denial over this.
>
> Errol
>
Oh look! More arsebiscuits from our prod bigot friend!
Paul
errol9
Hello AO Mole
You have proved without a shadow of a doubt now Paul Hammond you have
another agenda, and are certainly no friend of Dermod Ryder. You have been
playing Dermod Ryder and a lot of ex-bahais like puppets on a string to
create as much shit on TRB.
You fell right into my trap you little Bahai AO shite.
Paul Hammond was never your name, and the story about getting pissed was a
ringer to put the ex-bahai's of your tail.
All these * Hikmat *lies you have set up like working in a Pub dont work
anymore. You are no more an atheist than Nima is the Prime Minister of
Australia.
Your games up mole
Errol
> Paul
errol9
MO...@btinternet.com wrote on 12/9/03 9:54 am:
>> Like wise here is proof child sex abuse
>> happened within the Catholic church. And the people who are up in arms are
>> the catholic themselves. You and your wife live in denial over this.
>
> Why should it concern us? Neither of us is Catholic.
Is that right Lazy Ryder
Yeah will I am not a Protestant either, so why did promp the AO Paul Hammond
to keep calling me a Prod Bigot. Why did you call me a *Prod Bastard* when
you know I was a member of the Bahai Faith? (Evidence inclosed)
errol9
paha...@onetel.net.uk wrote on 12/9/03 12:50 pm:
> errol9 <err...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
When is your buddy Dermod lazy Ryder going to accept he is a sectarian bigot
for calling me a "Prod bastard?
Tell me AO Mole what is it with this Arsebiscuits you keep repeating. Is
that one of your pastimes of sticking biscuits up your arse. Whats your
favourite Custard Creams or Ginger snaps?...........Errol
>
> Paul
Paul Hammond
> in article c977f97b.03091...@posting.google.com, Paul Hammond at
> paha...@onetel.net.uk wrote on 12/9/03 12:50 pm:
>
> > errol9 <err...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> > news:<BB871992.379FA%err...@ntlworld.com>...
> >> Thank you Dermod for the real truth, so your object was to get me removed
> >> from Interfaith membership as well as embarrass the BIGS. Tell me did your
> >> wife approve of you sending this letter to embarrass her loyal Bahai friends
> >> Beman Kostravi and Edwin Graham? Like wise here is proof child sex abuse
> >> happened within the Catholic church. And the people who are up in arms are
> >> the catholic themselves. You and your wife live in denial over this.
> >>
> >> Errol
> >>
> >
> > Oh look! More arsebiscuits from our prod bigot friend!
>
> Hello AO Mole
>
> You have proved without a shadow of a doubt now Paul Hammond you have
> another agenda, and are certainly no friend of Dermod Ryder. You have been
> playing Dermod Ryder and a lot of ex-bahais like puppets on a string to
> create as much shit on TRB.
>
> You fell right into my trap you little Bahai AO shite.
>
What the fuck are you talking about, you stupid little
windbag?
errol9
> errol9 <err...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:<BB878A34.37ADA%err...@ntlworld.com>...
>> in article c977f97b.03091...@posting.google.com, Paul Hammond at
>> paha...@onetel.net.uk wrote on 12/9/03 12:50 pm:
>>
>>> errol9 <err...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>>> news:<BB871992.379FA%err...@ntlworld.com>...
>>>> Thank you Dermod for the real truth, so your object was to get me removed
>>>> from Interfaith membership as well as embarrass the BIGS. Tell me did your
>>>> wife approve of you sending this letter to embarrass her loyal Bahai
>>>> friends
>>>> Beman Kostravi and Edwin Graham? Like wise here is proof child sex abuse
>>>> happened within the Catholic church. And the people who are up in arms are
>>>> the catholic themselves. You and your wife live in denial over this.
>>>>
>>>> Errol
>>>>
>>>
>>> Oh look! More arsebiscuits from our prod bigot friend!
>>
>> Hello AO Mole
>>
>> You have proved without a shadow of a doubt now Paul Hammond you have
>> another agenda, and are certainly no friend of Dermod Ryder. You have been
>> playing Dermod Ryder and a lot of ex-bahais like puppets on a string to
>> create as much shit on TRB.
>>
>> You fell right into my trap you little Bahai AO shite.
>>
>
> What the fuck are you talking about, you stupid little
> windbag?
You know rightly what I am talking about you Bahai Spook....Errol
Freethought110
Ooh, he touched a sensitive nerve didn't he, AO mole!
Paul Hammond
> in article bjs53o$run$4...@titan.btinternet.com, Dermod Ryder at grim_reaper
> MO...@btinternet.com wrote on 12/9/03 9:54 am:
>
> >> Like wise here is proof child sex abuse
> >> happened within the Catholic church. And the people who are up in arms are
> >> the catholic themselves. You and your wife live in denial over this.
> >
> > Why should it concern us? Neither of us is Catholic.
>
> Is that right Lazy Ryder
>
> Yeah will I am not a Protestant either,
Yeah, right! Mr ORANGE.
Arsebiscuits!
Paul
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
> in article bjs53o$run$4...@titan.btinternet.com, Dermod Ryder at grim_reaper
> MO...@btinternet.com wrote on 12/9/03 9:54 am:
>
> >> Like wise here is proof child sex abuse
> >> happened within the Catholic church. And the people who are up in arms
are
> >> the catholic themselves. You and your wife live in denial over this.
> >
> > Why should it concern us? Neither of us is Catholic.
>
> Is that right Lazy Ryder
>
> Yeah will I am not a Protestant either, so why did promp the AO Paul
Hammond
> to keep calling me a Prod Bigot. Why did you call me a *Prod Bastard* when
> you know I was a member of the Bahai Faith? (Evidence inclosed)
I prompted nobody to call you anything.
Recollect that you were describing me as a Catholic and uttering
anti-Catholic sentiments.
Now look at this post and perceive that the use of "Prod bastard" is
cancelled as a sectarian insult by the use of "Taig bastard." Both are
equally derogatory - I offended you and I offended myself. Geddit! And BTW
I have shown that post around and only you regard it as evidence suggesting
that I am sectarian.
Recollect also that at the time I wrote to the IFF you proclaimed yourself
as a BIGS. Hence I struck a double blow - hitting out at a BIGS mouthing
sectarian nonsence and claiming he was not a bigot because he belonged to
the InterFaith Forum. There was a time you thought it was a shrewd and
canny blow. And did it embarrass the BIGS? You betcher sweet/sour ass it
did!
errol9
Sure Mr AO Mole.
>
> Arsebiscuits!
Still sticking ginger snaps up you arse Mr Bahai spook. Tell me do you do it
one at a time or do you stick the whole packet up..........Errol
>
> Paul
errol9
MO...@btinternet.com wrote on 13/9/03 3:09 am:
> Now look at this post and perceive that the use of "Prod bastard" is
> cancelled as a sectarian insult by the use of "Taig bastard." Both are
> equally derogatory - I offended you and I offended myself. Geddit! And BTW
> I have shown that post around and only you regard it as evidence suggesting
> that I am sectarian.
Show me proof on TRB were I called you a "Taig bastard." if you cant you are
a liar.......................................Errol
errol9
MO...@btinternet.com wrote on 13/9/03 3:09 am:
> Recollect that you were describing me as a Catholic and uttering
> anti-Catholic sentiments
You describing me as a "Prod Bastard" when at the time I was still a Bahai.
My post was with another American poster to TRB in relation to child
molesting within the Catholic Church, and was not a sectarian remark related
to you personally. The word *ARSEBISCUITS* used in the comedy TV series has
yet to be defined. I was asking a question in the post which was taken out
of context, used and manipulated by you to cause as much trouble to me as
possible by stirring up sectarian hatred in the IFF here in Northern
Ireland.
This was nothing to do with embarrassing the Bahais on the IFF it was all to
do with you getting your hateful revenge on me for calling you a waster.
Unlike the IFF whose committee never even answered your letter, there will
be a number of councillors and other who I intend sending information to on
the Antrim Council who will be very interested in finding what a hateful
sectarian anti Protesrtant bigot Dermod Ryder really is..........Errol
errol9
MO...@btinternet.com wrote on 13/9/03 3:09 am:
> Recollect that you were describing me as a Catholic
Sure I described you as a Catholic, I presumed you returned to that branch
of christianity when you resigned from the Bahai Faith after about 9 months
membership some 20 or more years ago. That was no reason to call me a "Prod
Bastard" as I never to this day called you a "Taig Bastard" on TRB or any
other nersgroup.
This nonsense about you wrote the letters and sent a selection of my posts
TRB posts wanting to embarrass the BIGS on the IFF is utter lies. Its you
who is the sectarian (anti Protestant bigot) by your own pen, here on TRB,
and more so your intentions requesting the IFF to remove my membership was
one of "HATE FILLED" revenge all because I called you a waster?
Errol
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
> in article bju1ob$3t6$1...@titan.btinternet.com, Dermod Ryder at grim_reaper
> MO...@btinternet.com wrote on 13/9/03 3:09 am:
>
> > Recollect that you were describing me as a Catholic
>
> Sure I described you as a Catholic, I presumed you returned to that branch
> of christianity
Don't presume! Ask!
Rest of long boring aside snipped
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
> Unlike the IFF whose committee never even answered your letter,
Yeah I noticed that. Funnily enough the BIGS react in exactly the same way.
Is the IFF now run by them?
Should I turn up at a meeting and ask some questions?
errol9
MO...@btinternet.com wrote on 13/9/03 8:50 am:
>
> "errol9" <err...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:BB888BCA.37CC7%err...@ntlworld.com...
>> Unlike the IFF whose committee never even answered your letter,
>
> Yeah I noticed that. Funnily enough the BIGS react in exactly the same way.
>
> Is the IFF now run by them?
No, the Bahai's are only one of many non christian sects and religions
involved. The Christian element still has it largely in their control.
>
> Should I turn up at a meeting and ask some questions?
You would achieve your objective into embarassing the BIGS much more by
doing just that, rather than writing letters and sending TRB posts about
me, but you could only do that on the night the Bahais are in the chair
speaking, otherwise you might be seen as an anti all religious bigot. Why
dont you ask your BIGS wife to inquire through the bahai grapevine when the
next bahai speaker is due. You also have the website addressso you can check
yourself.
I am of no importance to them at all now, and even more so I have resigned
from the Bahai Faith as I am not attached to any organised sect or religion.
Errol
Paul Hammond
> in article bju1ob$3t6$1...@titan.btinternet.com, Dermod Ryder at grim_reaper
> MO...@btinternet.com wrote on 13/9/03 3:09 am:
>
> > Recollect that you were describing me as a Catholic and uttering
> > anti-Catholic sentiments
>
> You describing me as a "Prod Bastard" when at the time I was still a Bahai.
>
> My post was with another American poster to TRB in relation to child
> molesting within the Catholic Church, and was not a sectarian remark related
> to you personally. The word *ARSEBISCUITS* used in the comedy TV series has
> yet to be defined. I was asking a question in the post which was taken out
> of context, used and manipulated by you to cause as much trouble to me as
> possible by stirring up sectarian hatred in the IFF here in Northern
> Ireland.
>
Errol, you suggested that "Arsebiscuits" were catholic communion
wafers.
Your *attempt* to apologise was like all your apologies have
been around here - insincere.
You actually believe that spamming people who get on your
nerves is a legitimate procedure. That just shows you up
for the worm that you are.
As I have said, numerous times, you are not welcome in
my inbox.
If I had 40 spams in my folder to send back to you, ask
yourself how I got them in the first place.
At least Father Hackett's "apology" to Len Brennon had
the advantage of being *funny*.
There's nothing funny about you attempts to wriggle, worm.
Paul
> This was nothing to do with embarrassing the Bahais on the IFF it was all to
> do with you getting your hateful revenge on me for calling you a waster.
>
Dermod isn't into "hateful revenge". That's more your line.
Except that you can't even do that right.
Paul Hammond
Yeah, he does that about me too.
First, he presumed I was Baha'i.
Then, he presumed I was Tory.
He presumed that I'd never been to a Baha'i Feast.
He presumes that since I've never joined the faith,
I can't know what I'm talking about.
He presumes that everyone who gets drunk even
just once has a drink problem.
Now, he's presuming that I'm a Baha'i again, and
that I'm lying about my drinking tastes.
Maybe, soon, he'll be presuming that I really
do drink, but that my special agent status in
the faith allows me a hikmat dispensation to
drink good whiskey and real ales (or even
Caffreys at a pinch!)
The common theme in all these presumptions is
that George is wrong.
That's why we must continue to call him "Error".
Paul
errol9
>
> Dermod isn't into "hateful revenge". That's more your line.
Dermod lazy Ryder and his wife Paula are ashamed of the child abuse cases in
the Catholic Church I happened to mention in a debate with another poster to
TRB so he reported me to the IFF to offshoot his own vindictive hatred and
sectarian bigotry against Protestantism by calling me a "Prod Bastard".Errol
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Irish+Catholic+Church
+pays+claims+for+child+abuse&btnG=Google+Search
BBC News | EUROPE | Irish cardinal 'regrets' abuse
... 12 Mar 02 | Americas Church agrees sex abuse payout. 08 Jan 02 ...
Internet links: Irish
Bishops Conference. The Vatican. US Conference of Catholic Bishops. ...
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1929761.stm - 33k - Cached - Similar pages
BBC News | EUROPE | Irish cardinal 'regrets' abuse
... Irish cardinal 'regrets' abuse. ... of the sex scandal that has rocked
the Roman Catholic
Church in America. ... evil' sex priests (21 Mar 02 | Europe) Church pays
$31m ...
news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/world/europe/1929761.stm - 13k - Cached - Similar pages
[ More results from news.bbc.co.uk ]
All news about apostatize
... Ex-Catholic says pedophile priests should be defrockedt News Herald ...
California Church
Cover-up ... CBS News - April 23, 2002. Irish cardinal 'regrets' abuse BBC
News ...
www.apostasie.org/english/pedo.html - 36k - Cached - Similar pages
Nopedo - News
... JSOnline - April 30, 2002 • Ex-Catholic says pedophile ... News - April
23, 2002 •
California Church Cover-up? ... News - April 23, 2002 • Irish cardinal
'regrets ...
www.nopedo.org/english/pages/actualite.html - 28k - Cached - Similar pages
One In Four - Run For and By People Who Have Experienced Sexual ...
... issue is regarded as regrettable and nobody pays any price ... Well,well
the Roman Catholic
Church ran this state by a ... The Irish Government had no say in any area.
...
www.oneinfour.org/archives/000294.html - 12k - Cached - Similar pages
Clergy Abuse
... Charges Against Prominent Rabbi Diocese pays $815,000 to ... Pay
$323,000 and Apologize
in Irish Sex Abuse ... Pastor Sentenced to Prison Catholic Church in
Australia ...
www.rickross.com/groups/clergy.html - 40k - Cached - Similar pages
Irish Newspapers - Irish Independent Online - Sunday Independent ...
... Publican pays out €5,000 to Travellers A LANDLORD who ... 100m move to
freeze funds
THE Irish Survivors of ... Kincora file A MEMBER of the Catholic Church sex
abuse ...
www.unison.ie/irish_independent/ index.php3?issue_id=8217 - 49k - Cached -
Similar pages
Dublin rages over church scandal, nuns get it in the face
... removing abusive priests from office, the church often transferred ... A
day after 150
members of Irish Survivors of ... hands of priests at a Catholic training
school ...
www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=978 - 40k - Cached - Similar
pages
Catholic World News (CWN)
... Laws To Blame For Rise In Irish Abortions (CWNews ... com) · Italian
Defends Cloning,
Attacks Church (CWNews.com) · Anglicans "Hurt" By Catholic Teaching On ...
www.cwnews.com/browse/ daybrowser.cfm?year=2001&month=3 - 69k - Cached -
Similar pages
RCC and SEX
... html Is the Media Overdoing the Scandal in the Catholic Church? ...
story/0,2933,51961,00.html
Church May Mortgage ... 00.html Ex-Boston Priest Arrested for Child Rape;
...
www.remnantofgod.org/rccsex.htm - 59k - Cached - Similar pages
Pat Kohli
Dermod Ryder wrote:
That is exactly the sort of presumption that would leave George to be a
Protestant today, rather than an agnostic.
George, are you a Protestant, an agnostic, or something else? If you find the
question to be too personal, though, please just don't answer it. I really just
wanted you to try the question on for size. This is how it fits when you ask
others about their religious beliefs. So, George, maybe sticking your nose into
other people's religion is just not all its cracked up to be.
Best wishes!
- Pat
kohli at ameritel.net
Paul Hammond
> in article c977f97b.03091...@posting.google.com, Paul Hammond at
> paha...@onetel.net.uk wrote on 13/9/03 2:19 pm:
>
> >
> > Dermod isn't into "hateful revenge". That's more your line.
>
> Dermod lazy Ryder and his wife Paula are ashamed of the child abuse cases in
> the Catholic Church I happened to mention in a debate with another poster to
> TRB so he reported me to the IFF to offshoot his own vindictive hatred and
> sectarian bigotry against Protestantism by calling me a "Prod Bastard".Errol
>
Arsebiscuits, Error!
You know well why you ever mentioned child abuse in the first
place, and that is because you couldn't win a fair argument
against Robin Peters, a catholic who was besting you in debate.
Therefore, you quoted a news story about Catholic priests
abusing children, and said "you can't talk to me, your
faith supports child abusing priests"
Using the scarring of children by sexual abuse as a
debating point is the action of a worm.
YOU are the one who should feel embarrassed by the whole
thing.
But, unfortunately, you sense of shame has atrophied entirely.
Paul
errol9
kohliCUT...@ameritel.net wrote on 13/9/03 11:12 pm:
>
>
> Dermod Ryder wrote:
>
>> "errol9" <err...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>> news:BB889130.37CC9%err...@ntlworld.com...
>>> in article bju1ob$3t6$1...@titan.btinternet.com, Dermod Ryder at grim_reaper
>>> MO...@btinternet.com wrote on 13/9/03 3:09 am:
>>>
>>>> Recollect that you were describing me as a Catholic
>>>
>>> Sure I described you as a Catholic, I presumed you returned to that branch
>>> of christianity
>>
>> Don't presume! Ask!
>>
>
> That is exactly the sort of presumption that would leave George to be a
> Protestant today, rather than an agnostic.
>
> George, are you a Protestant, an agnostic, or something else? If you find the
> question to be too personal, though, please just don't answer it. I really
> just wanted you to try the question on for size. This is how it fits when you
> ask others about their religious beliefs.
Not in the least do I find the question to personal.
I believe in a supreme power, a universal supernatural God of my own
understanding. This was my belief before I became a Bahai and it is what I
have returned to. I had no need to attach myself to any organised religion,
sect or cult to believe in a God of my own understanding then, and I have no
need now. My experiences in a cultish sect Bahaism put paid to that.
> So, George, maybe sticking your nose into other people's religion is just not
all its cracked up to be.
What you call sticking my nose in is uncovering, unveiling or unmasking an
Bahai AO mole spook, hiding behind a "Dissapointed Atheist" title who is a
member of the Bahai Faith hiding behind disimulation and Hikmat.
Paul Hammond's refusal to tell us why he is a dissappointed atheist plus his
pro Bahai stance enought evidence he is an AO mole. What non Bahai would
spend so much time defending the fundalmentalist Susan Maneck (below) when
he knows most ex bahais on TRB know her to be the biggest liar ever?
Errol
fglaysher
9/11/03 11:38 AM 1Â out of 5
Dear non-bahai observer,
Please understand and reflect on how desperate the fundamentalists are among
my fellow bahais to prevent your investigation into what role the bahai
administration played in the death/suicide of Dr. David Kelly.
For background on Susan Maneck, see
Susan Maneck, Baha'i scholar:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck8.htm
"In short, she has lied and made misleading statements about me in the past
and this recent statement of hers is just another example of her lack of
honesty." - Steven Scholl
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Scholl4.htm
"...she has behaved toward me in an academic setting with dishonesty and
deceit in such a way as deprives her of the right to debate me publicly. She
spied on me and lied about it. She betrayed confidences in
such a way as to cause her academic colleagues to demand and get her
resignation from a position she had held." Professor Juan Cole
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Cole20.htm
"Isn't it sort of suspicious that she shows up at AOL
backbiting me so assiduously on a forum where I am not
even present? ... Is the only way to stay a Baha'i
to capitulate morally in this way?" Professor Juan Cole
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Cole19.htm
"As for Maneck's relationship to the Baha'i authorities, she has herself
boasted to common friends of ours of corresponding with House members about
how to 'deal with Cole', and she served as a spy on an academic editorial
committee for counselor Ghadirian, passing over to him detailed reports on
confidential discussions, one of which she accidentally sharedwith an
editor. And now she wishes to make my revelation of this role itself a
reason for which *I* should be thought delusional?"
Professor Juan Cole
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Cole74.htm
Further details on Baha'i scholar Susan Maneck at
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm
See her slandering other views as garbage:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm
See her slandering other views as litter:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm
See also messages related to her abuse of AOL :
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/AOL.htm
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship.htm
HIKMAT
Outside observers should be especially careful and alert to Hikmat & Taqiya,
"wisdom" and dissimulation, key Baha'i concepts
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/hikmatMENU.htm
Wisdom and Dissimulation: The Use and Meaning of Hikmat in the Baha'i
Writings and History
http://bahai-library.org/articles/hikmat.html
The Practice of Taqiyyah (Dissimulation) in the Babi and Bahai Religions
http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/notes/vol3/taqiya.htm
An outside view of hikmat and taqiya
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/hikmat2.htm
Baha'i scholar Susan Maneck has a particularly notorious reputation for
practicing hikmat
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm
Steven Scholl regarding Susan Maneck, Baha'i scholar:
"But this is laughable when one looks at Dr. Maneck's publishing career. She
has penned a few Baha'i articles of marginal value published by internal
Baha'i agencies. In short, she has one of the weakest publishing histories I
have ever seen in academics
and her academic profile is nearly nonexistent. Maneck has attempted
(unsuccessfuly) to discredit the work of Juan Cole and now Karen with her
Baha'i blather. Yet it is Juan and Karen who are publishing in refereed
academic journals, and Karen has done this as a freelance writer rather than
as a trained academic."
"Susan, if you think you really have something to say, write it up and
submit it to a non-Baha'i publisher and see if they will accept YOUR
methodology and YOUR use of sources."
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Scholl4.htm
PaulHammond
9/11/03 3:59 PM 2Â out of 5
Susan Maneck doesn't post around here, so what are you talking about Fred.
Please understand and reflect on how desperate the fundamentalists are among
my fellow bahais to prevent your investigation into what role the bahai
administration played in the death/suicide of Dr. David Kelly.
Which fundamentalists do you accuse of trying to prevent investigation into
Kelly's suicide on Beliefnet?
Paul
fglaysher
9/12/03 8:03 AM 4Â out of 5
Dear non-bahai observer:
Susan Maneck, Bahai scholar, typifies the concealed anti-Western hatred
behind the veneer of brotherly love and peace routinely publicized by the
fundamentalists among my fellow bahais. Her allegation that the US bombed a
mosque during Friday Muslim prayers reveals a great deal about both her and
the Baha'i Faith, as it is ruled and controlled by the "universal" house of
(in)justice in Haifa, Israel:
Maneck writes in a current thread on talk.religion.bahai:
> Actually, it was the US who carried out the act of terrorism
>on a mosque during Friday service.
--
EVIDENCE grows... Dr. David Kelly & the Baha'i Faith
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Kelly.htm
Mai Pederson (Al-Sadat) Arab Kuwaiti American Baha'i
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/KellyMai.htm
Frederick Glaysher
The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/
I suggest the objective non-bahai observer consider the testimony of others
regarding Susan Maneck, Baha'i scholar:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck8.htm
"In short, she has lied and made misleading statements about me in the past
and this recent statement of hers is just another example of her lack of
honesty." Steven Scholl
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Scholl4.htm
"...she has behaved toward me in an academic setting
with dishonesty and deceit in such a way as deprives her of the right to
debate me publicly. She spied on me andlied about it. She betrayed
confidences in such a way as to cause her academic colleagues to demand and
get her resignation from a position she had held." Prof. Juan Cole
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Cole20.htm
"Isn't it sort of suspicious that she shows up at AOL
backbiting me so assiduously on a forum where I am not
even present? ... Is the only way to stay a Baha'i
to capitulate morally in this way?" Prof. Juan Cole
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Cole19.htm
"As for Maneck's relationship to the Baha'i authorities,she has herself
boasted to common friends of ours of corresponding with House members about
how to 'deal with Cole', and she served as a spy on an academic editorial
committee for counselor Ghadirian, passing over to him detailed reports on
confidential discussions, one of which she accidentally sharedwith an
editor. And now she wishes to make my revelation of this role itself a
reason for which *I* should be thought delusional?"
Prof. Juan Cole
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Cole74.htm
Further details on Baha'i scholar Susan Maneck at
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm
PaulHammond
9/12/03 10:26 AM 5Â out of 5
Fred, quotes Susan Maneck thusly:
Actually, it was the US who carried out the act of terrorism on a mosque
during Friday service.
Yeah, and then she provided the links to back up her claim, which is more
than you can manage.
Here is the appropriate Usenet post from this morning.
So, when we've quite finished talking about someone who isn't here - perhaps
you'd care to mention which fundamentalist it is you say is trying to
prevent discussion of Dr Kelly's suicide around here?
Then, after that, maybe you can provide your evidence for your claim that
the Baha'i Faith is trying to disown Dr Kelly?
Paul
I
errol9
> YOU are the one who should feel embarrassed by the whole
> thing.
>
> But, unfortunately, you sense of shame has atrophied entirely.
Why should I be ashamed over Catholic Priests molesting children. I was
never a Catholic. Dermod lazy Ryder and his wife were the ones who were
ashamed even though they are not practicing Cathoilics now. This issue has
only damaged the Catholic Church temporarily but it is big enough to
survive. I attended a Catholic service in west Belfast recently with
Catholic friends of mine and the Cathedral at St Clonards was packed solid.
So it has not stopped Catholics from attending Mass, especially here in
Ireland. I think they held nine masses that day, The Catholic Church In the
end it will bounce back. Unlike the small cultish sect of Bahaism it wont
survive this Kelly/Pederson spy scandal. There are 235,000 websites world
wide interested in this Bahai Kelly/Pederson suicide/spy scandal. There was
never media interest over the Catholic one as there is over the Bahai one.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=who+killed+David+Kelly+&b
tnG=Google+Search
Anyway back to the real issue, that of the kelly/Pederson scandal....Errol
EVIDENCE grows... Dr. David Kelly & the Baha'i Faith
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Kelly.htm
Or perhaps he did find out about the Baha'i Technique near the end,
and it exerbated his despair.... to be used and exploited by a religion
supposedly devoted to peace and world brotherhood.... such a
realization might very well have factored into his suicide.
The Bahai Technique - Ad Hominem, Libel, Slander, Demonize, Scapegoat,
Ostracize, Shun, Banish, Backbite, Defame, Vilify, Discredit, Smear,
Revile, Suppress, Attack, Bully, Intimidate, Threaten, Malign, Blackball,
Coerce, Silence, Harass... etc., etc.... CAUTION NON-BAHAIS
------------------------------------------------------------------
During the last decade or two a number of observers have noted
common methods many fundamentalists among my fellow bahais
use to avoid various issues or discredit people who hold opinions
other than their own:
------------------------------------------------------------------
OXFORD ENGLISH DICTIONARY. "Scapegoat (Lev. xvi) 1. Invented
by Tindale 1530.... One of the two goats that was chosen by Lot to be sent
away into the wilderness, the sins of the people having been symbolically
laid upon it, while the other was appointed to be sacrificed. 2. One who is
blamed or punished for the sins of others. 1867 Freeman, He has been
made the scapegoat for many of the sins both of other individuals and of
the whole nation."
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Scapegoat.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------
Alison Marshall, 2002:
"I think the documentation illustrates how the Baha'i administration
secretly watches, reports on and records the activities and views
of members it sees as a threat. This spying can go on for years
without the member knowing and despite general assurances to
the contrary. When it suits the administration to act, it can
summarily disenrol the person at any time and without any notice.
In such circumstances, 'counselling' will comprise any communication
that member has had with the institutions, whatever its nature, purpose
and timing. This action will be accompanied by a backbiting campaign
designed to destroy the member's reputation in the community. I think
members of the Baha'i community, and those contemplating joining it,
have a right to know how the Baha'i administration behaves." [2002]
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/AlisonMarshall.htm
Professor Juan Cole, University of Michigan, June 12, 1998:
"Let me ask you why in the world you think that I would risk my
professional reputation by publicly stating falsehoods? ...The very
technique of the more glaze-eyed among these people is to
unbearably bully a Baha'i whom they don't like, use unjustified
threats of declaring him or her a CB [Covenant Breaker (heretic)]
to silence the individual, and if the person will not be silenced,
then to depend upon the gullibility of the Baha'is in refusing to
listen to any victim's story because, of course, the Baha'i institutions
are infallible and divinely guided and could never do anything wrong.
It is a perfect racket. Of course, this technique of making liberals go
away has been enormously successful, and ex-Baha'i liberals have
no credibility with the remaining Baha'is nor do most of them have
any energy to continue to make a case, either to the Baha'is or the
outside world, for the incredible abuses that go on inside this
organization ostensibly committed to tolerance!"
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Cole10.htm
Professor Juan Cole, February 23, 1999:
"There is nothing to be puzzled by. Right wing Baha'is only like to hear the
sound of their own voices (which are the only voices they will admit to
being "Baha'i" at all). Obviously, the world is so constructed that they
cannot in fact only hear their own voices. They are forced to hear other
voices that differ from theirs. This most disturbs them when the voices
come from enrolled Baha'isor when the voices speak of the Baha'i faith.
The way they sometimes deal with the enrolled Baha'is is to summon them
to a heresy inquiry and threaten them with being shunned if they do not
fallsilent. With non-Baha'is or with ex-Baha'is, they deal with their speech
about the faith by backbiting, slandering and libelling the speaker. You
will note that since I've been on this list I have been accused of
long-term heresy, of "claiming authority," of out and out lying
(though that was retracted, twice), of misrepresentation, of 'playing
fast and loose with the facts,' and even of being 'delusional.' I have
been accused of all these falsehoods by *Baha'is*, by prominent Baha'is.
I have been backbitten by them. This shows that all the talk about the
danger a sharp tongue can do, all the talk about the need for harmony,
for returning poison with honey, for a sin-covering eye, is just *talk*
among right wing Baha'is. No one fights dirtier than they when they discover
a voice they cannot silence and cannot refute. Paul Johnson
has seen all these things, as well, for the past five years.
He can explain it to you."
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Cole71.htm
Professor Juan Cole, 12/5/2002:
"The purpose of having this system where it is so easy to turn insiders into
outsiders is to maintain very strict control over the community by its
leaders. The idea is that everyone still on the inside will fear being
made a non-person or being ostracized or being shunned, and so will keep
quiet and let the leadership do as it pleases with them. Silent suffering
of tyranny and injustice from one's leaders is the actual definition of a
Baha'i in good standing. Of course, this requirement is cult-like...."
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Cole80.htm
Frederick Glaysher, May 12, 1992:
"The Baha'i Faith has become very oppressive and manipulative of the
individual. That to me is merely a statement of fact, as I have experienced
it, for nearly sixteen years now [since 1976]. The usual stratagem in
dealing with anyone who would express his conscience in good faith is to
pretend the Cause is above any kind of criticism whatsoever while intimating
that anyone who would speak honestly must have something wrong with him,
i.e., his spiritual life isn't what it should be, he doesn't understand the
nature of unity, or he's accused of trying to obtain power for himself,
which at times seems merely a calculated way of discrediting the person, and
so on. Another common strategy used to acquire control over the individual
is to humor the person by letting him pour himself out, etc., and then
self-righteously giving him the Truth."
http://www.fglaysher.com/LettersAmD1989-1994.htm
Frederick Glaysher, June 1998:
"Some of the most striking methods demonstrated repeatedly by many Bahais
during the last year and a half of discussion about an unmoderated newsgroup
is their refusal to listen and respond to the criticisms of those who are in
favor of talk.religion.bahai, ignoring their concerns, never responding
analytically to their messages and reasoning and logic and evidence,
attacking them through character assassination and ad hominem, ganging
up on individuals, and "circling the wagons" around every action of the
soc.religion.bahai moderators or others who are opposed to
talk.religion.bahai."
Ron House, November 14, 1997:
"I know what you mean. I've found over the years that there is a technique
used by traditional Baha'is and others to squash dissension: harry the
dissenter so much he says something intemperate, then point out how 'loving'
and 'compassionate' they are and how nasty the dissenter is. The trouble
isthat this technique works, so I've been making a conscious effort not to
fall for it. Also, when they get the dissenter discouraged and miserable
enough, he invariably makes a slip-up sooner or later that they can REALLY
let loose the venom over. IMHO, they did this to you when you misread
Sharon's intentions. At any other time, they would overlook faults, as
Baha'u'llah says, but when they're in this mode they go for the jugular.Very
sad."
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/House2.htm
Ron House <ho...@usq.edu.au> wrote in message
news:3DAE2CE7...@usq.edu.au... October 2002,
WROTE REGARDING SUSAN MANECK's Technique:
If this were the the first, or a rare, occasion on which this specimen
had got up to this shenanigan, we might let it pass. But it is, in my
experience, her typical pattern of "debate": take something from another
poster, think out some uncharitable 'consequence' that she thinks
follows from it, and then assert as factual that the original posters
were in favour of her uncharitable interpretation. It is, imho, a
fundamentally malicious and dishonest way to conduct debate.
Fran Baker, May 1998:
"Just have to say that in my experience this is a common technique of
manipulative people in general; it is especially effective with thoughtful
people who are willing to see both sides of things, i.e., their own fault. I
consider this brow-beating technique to be a form of abuse. The only way to
deal with it is to call them on it every time and to refuse to let yourself
be beat up, i.e., not to do your part of the "tango." This can be very hard
to do, but it works.You can break this pattern in a personal relationship. I
don't know whether it's possible when a groupacts this way. Very scary."
Dermod Ryder, September 19, 2001:
"And then Eureka! I realised why Fred gets the treatment he does . . .
for Fred has painstakingly not only assembled the evidence of the canker
within but he constantly publicises it to the extent that he really gets up
noses and AO noses at that! . . . I basically agree with him that the AO
terrorises people - terror is more than bombs or kamikaze aircraft. A
whispered aside in the right circumstances can instil terror (like a threat
to be made a CB) - most ethnic cleansing is carried out by a piece of
"good" advice to the effect that one would be better off NOT living in this
neighbourhood, from a gentleman who is known or assumed to have the
"right connections" to ensure the advice is heeded. Twenty years ago the
AO tried that particular threatening tactic on with me and were told where
they could stick it! Others can also testify to that including Dennis Rogers
whose experiences were posted on TRB recently. And you guys hate
Fred for this, for his continued exposing of the sewer that the AO has
become. Of course you all hate Juan, Alison, Michael, Nima etc as well
and for the same reason and give them the same treatment but somewhat
reduced for they don't post as much as Fred who is just a real pain in the
butt for doing what he does so well! Fred is an avid counter terrorist and
he's good at it as the whimpering from the BIGS proves!"
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Ryder2001.htm
Dermod Ryder, February 28, 2002:
"This is what is known as the "love bomb" technique. Disregard and entirely
ignore the substance of any complaint or criticism and throw out this carpet
of "bahai love" which will overwhelm the reason and appeal to the emotion.
I've been vaccinated! What I also glean from recourse to this technique
isthat there is no answer to the points I raised. In effect you guys who
support the AO do so through thick and thin to the point where you cannot
and will not admit that it has any faults of any substantive value. Because
guys like me cannot agree with you - the fault is obviously ours."
K. Paul Johnson, September 15, 1998:
"If that principle [people are innocent until proven guilty] were followed
by Baha'i administration and individuals in their condemnations of their
fellow believers, I would have very little to complain about regarding
Baha'i affairs. But character assassination by innuendo is the preferred way
of dealing with anything remotely resembling dissidence. Seems like that's
exactly what you're doing to Juan Cole in your message. Saying I don't want
to know what you've "got" on him, thus attacking me but insinuating you have
some awful proof of unspecified guilt on his part. If that's not character
assassination by innuendo, what is?"
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Johnson18.htm
Steven Scholl, March 12, 2002:
"The problem in her [Susan Maneck] cult view of the world is the
"dissident act" of shining a light on internal Baha'i affairs so that
outsiders (and insiders) can learn about what really takes place in
the Baha'i world. The great sin is ignoring the Baha'i taboo against
speaking out against internalinjustices because to do so is to tarnish
the reputation of the Baha'i institutions. Good Baha'is are expected
to take their abuse in silence. If they speak out against abuse,
they are regarded as internal opposition and come under investigation
from the Baha'i Inquisition. They are villified and threatened, even
told that their status in the afterlife is threatened if they don't
change their ways. And, yes, this was a key element [in] the little
drama that played out between the Baha'i leadership and myself."
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Scholl4.htm
David Langness, 31 Mar 1997:
"I would advise you to be careful about any meetings, calls or
correspondence with Hoda Mahmoudi, who used to be an ABM
here in Southern California. She is quite conservative, and sees
herself -- as do many of the appointed branch, sadly -- as a staunch
defender of the Faith and the faithful, able and more than willing to
marginalize people like you and I to discredit our ideas. This cultlike
practice of shunning and casting out any dissidents has unfortunately
become the chief tactic of those fundamentalist Baha'is bent on
maintaining the current leadership. My worry is that the more
progressive Baha'is like Juan Cole and Steve Scholl and yourself
will all leave the Faith and thereby increase the power of the
conservatives."
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Langness.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------
This document is available on the web at
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/technique.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------
For two excellent introductions to the Bahai Wars:
Professor Juan R. I. Cole, University of Michigan,
"Fundamentalism in the Contemporary U.S. Baha'i Community,"
Religious Studies Review, Vol. 43, no. 3 (March, 2002):195-217:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/2002/fundbhfn.htm
Karen Bacquet, "Enemies Within: Conflict and Control in the
Baha'i Community." Published in American Family Foundation's
Cultic Studies Journal, Volume 18, pp.109-140:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/bigquestions/enemies.html
--
Frederick Glaysher
The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/
COMPARE
Geoffrey Chaucer, AD 1340-1400.
Prologue to the Pardoner's Tale:
For in truth, many a sermon
Comes often out of evil intention;
Some for the pleasing and flattery of people,
To have advancement by hypocrisy,
And some for worldly fame, and some for hate.
For, when I dare not oppose a man otherwise,
Then I sting him with my sharp tongue
In preaching, so that he cannot escape
Being falsely slandered, if he
Has wronged my brothers or myself.
For, although I do not tell his exact name,
Men can readily guess whom I mean
By hints and by other devices.
Thus I pay back people who do us bad turns;
Thus I spit out my venom under color
Of holiness, while seeming holy and sincere....
(Translator, Vincent F. Hopper. 1948)
Brid
>
> Why should I be ashamed over Catholic Priests molesting children.
You should be ashamed over a man who threatens to spam the teachers of
a school an autistic child attends just because he doesn't like her
daddy!
I was
> never a Catholic.
Indeed, but that has never stopped you talking a lot of nonsense about
Catholicism on this and other forums.
>I attended a Catholic service in west Belfast recently with
> Catholic friends of mine and the Cathedral at St Clonards was packed solid.
> So it has not stopped Catholics from attending Mass, especially here in
> Ireland.
Did you share with those Catholic friends about "the canon man made
law of(hands on "hocus pocus" miracle preformed by the Priests to
trick the parishioners into believing the Priest is a magician)" ? I'm
sure they would be as hurt and bewildered by it as this Catholic
friend is.
BTW, there is no such person as St Clonard, AFAIK the Catholic
Pro-Cathedral in Belfast is dedicated to St Peter and is located in a
district of Belfast called Clonard.
>I think they held nine masses that day,
Then you were probably part of the famous Clonard Novena whose
reputation is well-known even here in the south. The Pro-Cathedral
here in Dublin only hosts 5 masses on Sundays as a rule.
The Catholic Church In the
> end it will bounce back. Unlike the small cultish sect of Bahaism it wont
> survive this Kelly/Pederson spy scandal. There are 235,000 websites world
> wide interested in this Bahai Kelly/Pederson suicide/spy scandal. There was
> never media interest over the Catholic one as there is over the Bahai one.
Your last statement is absolute bunkum. The sexual scandals in the
Catholic Church have generated enormous media interest worldwide.
>
> Anyway back to the real issue, that of the kelly/Pederson scandal....Errol
That is not the real issue for you George. The real issue for you is
why you have not been able to recover the run of yourself after
leaving that small cultish sect.
Brid
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
"Brid" <bridci...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d5a5c190.03091...@posting.google.com...
> Did you share with those Catholic friends about "the canon man made
> law of(hands on "hocus pocus" miracle preformed by the Priests to
> trick the parishioners into believing the Priest is a magician)" ? I'm
> sure they would be as hurt and bewildered by it as this Catholic
> friend is.
>
> BTW, there is no such person as St Clonard, AFAIK the Catholic
> Pro-Cathedral in Belfast is dedicated to St Peter and is located in a
> district of Belfast called Clonard.
St Peter's Pro-Cathdral is just off the left side of the Falls Road in
Belfast. Clonard Monastery is situated at the top of Clonard Street on the
opposite side of the Falls Road and, indeed, further up it. It overlooks
the Peace-Line between the Catholic community of the Falls and the
Protestant community of the Shankill and is indeed well known throughout
Ireland. One of the priests at Clonard, Fr. Alec Reid was instrumental in
bringing about the IRA ceasefire back in 1994. This was a miracle in its
own right in many ways and something he has never talked about to the Press.
And many Protestant clerics from Church Of Ireland Archbishop Robin Eames,
downwards or upwards as you choose, have also been heavily involved in
bringing about an end to violence.
Bahais were notable by their absence, surfacing as the saviours of a divided
society once the shooting had stopped and it was safe to get involved in
something. And as I noted earlier they are unremarkably absent from
troubled areas due in no small measure to the fact that Bahaism in Ireland
generally, I think, but especially in the North is the preserve of the
middle classes.
>
> Your last statement is absolute bunkum. The sexual scandals in the
> Catholic Church have generated enormous media interest worldwide.
Certainly among my friends and family in the South there is an awareness
that these scandals have done massive damage to the Catholic Church and are
possibly the biggest singlr factor in a marked decline in church attendances
over the past few years. Of course it took time for things like the Brendan
Smith affair to emerge and its full impact be felt and reported. In that
sense the Kelly business is nothing .. at this time but it may develop.
When one remembers that the child sex abuse scandal involving Brendan Smith
caused the fall of a Government in Dublin, Pederson fades into total
insignificance.
But there is so much discontent evident in Bahai circles now that it's
surely only a matter of time before a worthwhile scandal surfaces to really
do damage.
errol9
bridci...@yahoo.com wrote on 14/9/03 3:44 pm:
> errol9 <err...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:<BB89E5B2.37D6E%err...@ntlworld.com>...
>>
>> Why should I be ashamed over Catholic Priests molesting children.
>
> You should be ashamed over a man who threatens to spam the teachers of
> a school an autistic child attends just because he doesn't like her
> daddy!
Your dammed right I dont like her daddy. He is an anti Protestant sectarian
bigot. Dermot Ryder should have thought about that before he sent letters
to the IFF on me to stir up sectarian hatred. I will only be sending his
obscene and sectarian posts to the Antrim Council now anyway. As I have not
got the address of the school. And for the record I am not ashamed. Dermod
Ryder believed it was his right to send letters to the IFF. It is also
within my right to send his posts to the Antrim Council.
>> I was never a Catholic.
>
> Indeed, but that has never stopped you talking a lot of nonsense about
> Catholicism on this and other forums.
Well that is your opinion.
>> I attended a Catholic service in west Belfast recently with
>> Catholic friends of mine and the Cathedral at St Clonards was packed solid.
>> So it has not stopped Catholics from attending Mass, especially here in
>> Ireland.
>
> Did you share with those Catholic friends about "the canon man made
> law of(hands on "hocus pocus" miracle preformed by the Priests to
> trick the parishioners into believing the Priest is a magician)" ? I'm
> sure they would be as hurt and bewildered by it as this Catholic
> friend is.
Well then seeing I talk nonsense kindly explain transubstantiation
I have never met a Catholic yet who is able to explain this properly. So if
they dont understand it haw do you expect me to understand it?
>
> BTW, there is no such person as St Clonard, AFAIK the Catholic
> Pro-Cathedral in Belfast is dedicated to St Peter and is located in a
> district of Belfast called Clonard.
Ok I got the names mixed up. Big deal.
>
>
>> I think they held nine masses that day,
>
> Then you were probably part of the famous Clonard Novena whose
> reputation is well-known even here in the south. The Pro-Cathedral
> here in Dublin only hosts 5 masses on Sundays as a rule.
Well I was only going by what one of my friends told me. He said there had
been 9 masses that day. There could have been 5 or 25 for all I know.
>
> The Catholic Church In the
>> end it will bounce back. Unlike the small cultish sect of Bahaism it wont
>> survive this Kelly/Pederson spy scandal. There are 235,000 websites world
>> wide interested in this Bahai Kelly/Pederson suicide/spy scandal. There was
>> never media interest over the Catholic one as there is over the Bahai one.
>
> Your last statement is absolute bunkum. The sexual scandals in the
> Catholic Church have generated enormous media interest worldwide.
I bet there was never 235,000 websites talking about sex scandals in the RC
Church. Here is the evidence on Kelly. More than the mystery over Marilyn
Monroe's death.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Who+killed+David+kelly&bt
nG=Google+Search
>> Anyway back to the real issue, that of the kelly/Pederson scandal....Errol
>
> That is not the real issue for you George. The real issue for you is
> why you have not been able to recover the run of yourself after
> leaving that small cultish sect.
That issue is my problem and my business to sort out, after I have settled
one other score first............Errol
>
> Brid
Pat Kohli
I appreciate your courage.
Slan!
errol9
bridci...@yahoo.com wrote on 14/9/03 3:44 pm:
> law of(hands on "hocus pocus" miracle preformed by the Priests to
> trick the parishioners into believing the Priest is a magician)" ? I'm
> sure they would be as hurt and bewildered by it as this Catholic
> friend is.
Brid
They knew me as a bahai and now as an ex- bahai. Had they invited a
Protestant do you think they would have told him what the Pope had to say
recently this year about the sacrament of holy communion in Protestant
churches?
Friday 2nd May, 2003
------------------------------------------------------------------------
A FALSE 'TRUTH'
It was most disappointing that on Maundy Thursday, Pope John Paul II issued
an encyclical, Ecclesia de Eucharistia, once again denigrating the sacrament
of Holy Communion in Protestant churches.
http://gazette.ireland.anglican.org/020503/editorial020503.htm
Is it possible to ask, do you approve of the Pope's official statement here
to his millions of world Catholics? Would you not also agree the Pope has
hurt and bewildered the feelings of millions of Protestant Christians here
world wide whereas little ole ex bahai George Fleming only offended
non-catholics Dermod & Paul who were looking for to be offended anyway?
Errol
Paul Hammond
> in article d5a5c190.03091...@posting.google.com, Brid at
> bridci...@yahoo.com wrote on 14/9/03 3:44 pm:
>
> > errol9 <err...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> > news:<BB89E5B2.37D6E%err...@ntlworld.com>...
> >>
> >> Why should I be ashamed over Catholic Priests molesting children.
> >
> > You should be ashamed over a man who threatens to spam the teachers of
> > a school an autistic child attends just because he doesn't like her
> > daddy!
>
> Your dammed right I dont like her daddy. He is an anti Protestant sectarian
> bigot. Dermot Ryder should have thought about that before he sent letters
> to the IFF on me to stir up sectarian hatred. I will only be sending his
> obscene and sectarian posts to the Antrim Council now anyway. As I have not
> got the address of the school. And for the record I am not ashamed.
Now, why doesn't that surprise me? Didn't I just say that
meself?
And, Brid, the adjective "autistic" is redundant in the
above sentence. No kind of man threatens to bring another's
daughter into the fight, just because he's having a hard
time arguing with daddy on the internet.
I was going to post something stupid about those
"235,000 websites", and whether Error had counted them
himself - but I think that is unnessecary right now, too.
Dermod
> Ryder believed it was his right to send letters to the IFF. It is also
> within my right to send his posts to the Antrim Council.
>
> >> I was never a Catholic.
> >
> > Indeed, but that has never stopped you talking a lot of nonsense about
> > Catholicism on this and other forums.
>
> Well that is your opinion.
>
Child abuse is a problem that everyone should be worried about,
and do whatever they can to prevent.
It doesn't make any difference whether the abusers are
Catholic priests, care-home teachers, or the man who
lives down the road. It is the business of us all to
prevent it.
But, using a scandal within the catholic church as a
debating move to try to shut someone up when you find
out that they are a catholic is the action of a worm.
Saying "I am not a catholic, so I have nothing to
do with it" is bollocks, quite frankly.
> >
> > Did you share with those Catholic friends about "the canon man made
> > law of(hands on "hocus pocus" miracle preformed by the Priests to
> > trick the parishioners into believing the Priest is a magician)" ? I'm
> > sure they would be as hurt and bewildered by it as this Catholic
> > friend is.
>
> Well then seeing I talk nonsense kindly explain transubstantiation
> I have never met a Catholic yet who is able to explain this properly. So if
> they dont understand it haw do you expect me to understand it?
>
I don't expect a prod bigot like you to understand it.
Even when one of your friends is a Catholic, you can't help
getting your digs in, can you?
Grow up, Error. You're old enough to know better by now,
surely?
> >
> > That is not the real issue for you George. The real issue for you is
> > why you have not been able to recover the run of yourself after
> > leaving that small cultish sect.
>
> That issue is my problem and my business to sort out, after I have settled
> one other score first............Errol
>
While your problem causes you to spam people and newsgroups,
you make it everyone else's business.
As to this "other score", is that a threat to Dermod? Or is
it another reference to me, like the one below:
"I will hound you out like you three PIGS did me. Paul Hammond is a special
piece of shit who has it coming also."
Message-ID: <BAF9035D.26411%err...@ntlworld.com>
Paul
Paul Hammond
ROTFLMAO - You couldn't unmask a snail!
> Paul Hammond's refusal to tell us why he is a dissappointed atheist plus his
> pro Bahai stance enought evidence he is an AO mole. What non Bahai would
> spend so much time defending the fundalmentalist Susan Maneck (below) when
> he knows most ex bahais on TRB know her to be the biggest liar ever?
>
> Errol
>
I don't refuse to tell "us", I refuse to tell you, because you
are a twat who doesn't have any real interest in my personal
issues, except to bash me over the head with them, like you
did Robin Peter when she was posting here (see other posts
on this thread)
I have, in fact, talking about what I believe and why in
many different places - and I don't feel like repeating
myself for your benefit, when you'll only be baiting me
again the next week.
If anyone else was at all interested in exploring my personal
beliefs with them, then I might be persuaded.
But, I will talk to *you* about my private, personal
beliefs when hell freezes over, and not before, savvy?
Paul
errol9
like you accused me before? Remember Pat Kohli said he was only carrying
out my request to report me to the UK NSA. Tell me do you still want me to
carry out your request, and post Dermod's address?...............Errol
"Paul Hammond" <paha...@onetel.net.uk> wrote in message
news:c977f97b.03090...@posting.google.com...
Why don't you post his address again, worm?
> Paul tell me, do you get secret kicks out of Dermod and I fighting
Yeah! I love to see Dermod wipe the floor with your arse
- and that is no secret!
Error why don't you shut the fuck up? You're tumbled! But before you shut
the fuck up, why not tell us what it's like to be a disappointed saboteur?
in article c977f97b.03091...@posting.google.com, Paul Hammond at
paha...@onetel.net.uk wrote on 15/9/03 1:03 am:
Pat Kohli
Paul Hammond wrote:
> errol9 <err...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<BB8A9349.37F5D%err...@ntlworld.com>...
> (snip)
> > Well then seeing I talk nonsense kindly explain transubstantiation
> > I have never met a Catholic yet who is able to explain this properly. So if
> > they dont understand it haw do you expect me to understand it?
> >
Not only did Jesus say the bread and wine were His Body and Blood, at the Last Supper, which
would make them so, but He also directed the Apostles to celebrate the Last Supper in memory
of Him. So, transubstantion is as easy as a) trusting Jesus that the bread and wine were His
Body and Blood, and b) following His wishes in repeating the event. It is not magic, it is
Luke 22:19-20.
Best wishes,
Pat Kohli
Paul Hammond wrote:
> errol9 <err...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<BB89DC83.37D6D%err...@ntlworld.com>...
> > in article 3F63A445...@ameritel.net, Pat Kohli at
> > kohliCUT...@ameritel.net wrote on 13/9/03 11:12 pm:
> >
> > >
> (snip)
> > >
> > > That is exactly the sort of presumption that would leave George to be a
> > > Protestant today, rather than an agnostic.
> > >
> > > George, are you a Protestant, an agnostic, or something else? If you find the
> > > question to be too personal, though, please just don't answer it. I really
> > > just wanted you to try the question on for size. This is how it fits when you
> > > ask others about their religious beliefs.
> >
> > Not in the least do I find the question to personal.
> >
> > I believe in a supreme power, a universal supernatural God of my own
> > understanding. This was my belief before I became a Bahai and it is what I
> > have returned to. I had no need to attach myself to any organised religion,
> > sect or cult to believe in a God of my own understanding then, and I have no
> > need now. My experiences in a cultish sect Bahaism put paid to that.
> >
So, are you categorizing your beliefs as idolatry? I am looking for you to categorize your
beliefs. I think it is refreshing that in your culture, two strangers like us two, can ask
these questions directly. In the US, this is considered personal, and those who ask these
questions often find that they will not get a straight answer.
>
> > > So, George, maybe sticking your nose into other people's religion is just not
> > all its cracked up to be.
> >
> > What you call sticking my nose in is uncovering, unveiling or unmasking an
> > Bahai AO mole spook, hiding behind a "Dissapointed Atheist" title who is a
> > member of the Bahai Faith hiding behind disimulation and Hikmat.
> >
No, I was really trying to get you to admit to being an idolator, or, at least get a sense of
what it is like for someone to make up a religions categorization for you, which, though it
might look good to them, does not sound right to you, as a practicing idolator.
>
>
> ROTFLMAO - You couldn't unmask a snail!
>
He is our George, a happy idolator, and proud to say so! Right, George?
(snip)
Best wishes, George, and thanks for being a good sport and playing along, I've always liked
that about you Idolators, you know.
errol9
kohliCUT...@ameritel.net wrote on 15/9/03 3:00 am:
Every time the sacrament of the eucharist takes place in the Catholic
Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church a miracle happens.
Main Entry: tran新ub新tan暗i戢暗ion
Pronunciation: -"stan(t)-shE-'A-sh&n
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 : an act or instance of transubstantiating or being transubstantiated
2 : the ***miraculous*** change by which according to Roman Catholic and
Eastern Orthodox dogma the eucharistic elements at their consecration become
the body and blood of Christ while keeping only the appearances of bread and
wine
But recently according to the Pope the sacrament of Holy Communion in
Protestant churches is a false truth, whatever that means..........Errol
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Friday 2nd May, 2003
A FALSE 'TRUTH'
It was most disappointing that on Maundy Thursday, Pope John Paul II issued
an encyclical, Ecclesia de Eucharistia, once again denigrating the sacrament
of Holy Communion in Protestant churches.
http://gazette.ireland.anglican.org/020503/editorial020503.htm
Finally do the Bahai not believe all Christian sacraments are man made, So
therfore they could not agree Transubstantiaton is miraculous, could they?
Errol
errol9
kohliCUT...@ameritel.net wrote on 15/9/03 3:07 am:
>
> So, are you categorizing your beliefs as idolatry? I am looking for you to
> categorize your
> beliefs. I think it is refreshing that in your culture, two strangers like us
> two, can ask
> these questions directly. In the US, this is considered personal, and those
> who ask these
> questions often find that they will not get a straight answer.
To all newcomers to TRB.
I was a member of a cult called Bahaism for 13 years which practised
idolatry . They prayed to two dead Persians sufi's called the Bab and
Bahau'llah, who when alive had five wives between them. In the US I believe
the bahais worship a a memorial stone to Abdul baha. This is idolatry.
Which one of the three do you worship Pat? I have now joined ex-cult-support
· This mailing list is for anyone who has been in a cult like Bahaism a
high-demand or spiritually abusive group. Former members can share. There
are some Bahais on the group to help them ovecome the effects of Bahaism
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ex-cult-support/?yguid=146111860
All ex bahais are welcome to join................Errol
>
Eric Stetson
The fact is, if you put the consecrated bread and wine under a
microscope or subject it to chemical analysis, you discover that it is
not flesh and blood, but remains bread and wine. Therefore, it is
obvious to all thinking human beings that Jesus's statement must be
understood spiritually, not physically. Yes, the bread and wine have
been transformed into the body and blood of Christ, but in terms of
their spiritual significance for the person receiving them (i.e. the
power of the Holy Spirit), not in their physical nature. Therefore,
in my view the Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation is
erroneous.
Pat, I must say I find it absolutely astounding that you would promote
a literalist view of the bread and wine issue based upon one statement
of Jesus that was clearly laden with metaphor, an interpretation of
which modern science is actually able to prove incorrect through
experimentation; yet you refuse to accept that the Gospels and the
Pauline Epistles explicitly testify to a literal, physical
resurrection of Jesus Christ from the grave, even though there is far
more textual evidence to support this idea and thousands of the
earliest Christians died for it and no body of Jesus has ever been
found and His reported tomb remains empty to this very day.
Best,
Eric
Eric Stetson
Ex-Baha'i Christian Testimony
http://www.bahai-faith.com
Ex-Baha'i Discussion & Debate
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ex-bahai/
errol9
erics...@yahoo.com wrote on 15/9/03 5:04 am:
Eric,
This doctrine has always been a controversial hot potato among Christain
theologians. Although the concept was and still is believed by the Eastern
Orthodox Church, the actual term or word Transubstantiation was not defined
dogmatically by the Catholic Church until 1215. Included below is an Anglian
view for your perusal..................Errol
"1215 The Fourth Lateran Council was held in Rome, under Innocent III. Â
Transubstantiation was defined and the later doctrine of Unum Sanctum was
foreshadowed. On the sacraments:
³One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at
all is saved, in which the priest himself is the sacrifice, Jesus Christ,
whose body and blood are truly contained in the sacrament of the altar under
the species of bread and wine; the bread (changed) into His body by the
divine power of transubstantiation, and the wine into the blood, so that to
accomplish the mystery of unity we ourselves receive from His (nature) what
He Himself received from ours. And surely no one can accomplish this
sacrament except a priest who has been rightly ordained according to the
keys of the Church which Jesus Christ Himself conceded to the Apostles and
to their successors. But the sacrament of baptism (which at the invocation
of God and the indivisible Trinity, namely, of the Father and of the Son and
of the Holy Spirit, is solemnized in water) rightly conferred by anyone in
the form of the Church is useful unto salvation for little ones and for
adults. And if, after the reception of baptism anyone shall have lapsed
into sin, through true penance he can always be restored. Moreover, not
only virgins and the continent but also married persons pleasing to God
through right faith and good work merit to arrive at a blessed eternity.²
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/7224/Rick/chrono13.htm
>
> Pat, I must say I find it absolutely astounding that you would promote
> a literalist view of the bread and wine issue based upon one statement
> of Jesus that was clearly laden with metaphor, an interpretation of
> which modern science is actually able to prove incorrect through
> experimentation; yet you refuse to accept that the Gospels and the
> Pauline Epistles explicitly testify to a literal, physical
> resurrection of Jesus Christ from the grave, even though there is far
> more textual evidence to support this idea and thousands of the
> earliest Christians died for it and no body of Jesus has ever been
> found and His reported tomb remains empty to this very day.
>
> Best,
> Eric
>
> Eric Stetson
> Ex-Baha'i Christian Testimony
> http://www.bahai-faith.com
> Ex-Baha'i Discussion & Debate
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ex-bahai/
 "Turning now to matters requiring explanation, one probably is in the
non-use by us of the term Œtransubstantiation.¹ Let us state what our
doctrine is and why we do not use this term.
    "The Anglican Church has had a double contest, one in the deliverance of
herself from Latinism and the other from Protestantism. At the time of the
Reformation in the sixteenth century there was a popular belief, known then
as the Romish doctrine of transubstantiation, which held that the elements
at the time of consecration were so physically changed that they ceased to
exist and remained in appearance only. This the Reformers rejected on the
ground that it overthrew the nature of a sacrament, which must consist of
two parts. When, on the other hand, Protestantism denied the reality of the
Presence of our Lord's Body and Blood, then, in the seventeenth century, the
Anglican Church made further and more explicit statement of her doctrine and
embodied it in her official Catechism. She then declared that the outward
part or Sign was bread and wine, but that the inward part or Thing was the
Body and Blood of the Lord. She moreover stated that the grace or benefit
the faithful received was the strengthening and refreshing of their souls.
By making these distinctions between the Sign, the Thing, and the Grace, the
Church condemned the subjective theory of Protestantism. For we are not
taught by our Catechism that the outward sign or form is the eating or
drinking of the elements, but that the outward part or sign is the bread and
wine; and we do not say that the inward part is the reception of the Body
and Blood of Christ, but that the inward part or Thing is the Body and Blood
of the Lord.
Brid
> Eric,
>
> This doctrine has always been a controversial hot potato among Christain
> theologians. Although the concept was and still is believed by the Eastern
> Orthodox Church, the actual term or word Transubstantiation was not defined
> dogmatically by the Catholic Church until 1215. Included below is an Anglian
> view for your perusal..................Errol
You know absolutely nothing about what is or is not believed by the
eastern Orthodox churches in relation to transubstantiation or indeed
to anything else. Transubstantiation is, of course, an old obsession
of yours, you pontificated about it on baha'i studies where you
erroneously linked it to infallibility.
I will not be attempting to explain it to you since if you cannot
grasp what a "Bahooey" is you will hardly be able to take on board
concepts of medieval scholastic thought. Nima explained it to you last
year and if you didn't get it then you won't get it now.
There have always been different schools of thought in Christianity
just as there have been in all of the world's major religions. Many
Christians in Ireland have tried very hard to overcome the problems of
the past, indeed, here in Dublin we have recently taken over a
redundant Church of Ireland building at Harold's Cross with the C of
I's blessing. The consecration of the new Russian Orthodox Church of
SS Peter and Paul in February of this year was attended by a variety
of ecclesiastical dignitaries including the Anglican Rector of
Rathmines and Harold's Cross, the Papal Nuncio, and representatives
from the Greek and Coptic churches. To further underscore just how far
Ireland has moved on from the past there were a number of state
dignitaries as well including the Lord Mayor of Dublin, European
affairs minister Dick Roche, Michael Mulcahy TD and members of the
Diplomatic Corps. It was a scene that would have been unimaginable in
the Ireland of De Valera. Funny, but there were no complaints that day
about hocus-pocus magic going on behind the Royal Doors from the
'Anglians' or anyone else. It was a wonderful occasion and one which
made me proud to be an Irishwoman. I will always remember it.
So, actual Christians have moved on Errol, you are not a Christian and
know nothing about the agenda that Irish churches are following. It
is, thank God, very different to yours. Please stop making a fool of
yourself talking about things you know nothing about, it is painful
for me to witness.
Brid
errol9
> errol9 <err...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:<BB8B1E92.37FC3%err...@ntlworld.com>...
>> Eric,
>>
>> This doctrine has always been a controversial hot potato among Christain
>> theologians. Although the concept was and still is believed by the Eastern
>> Orthodox Church, the actual term or word Transubstantiation was not defined
>> dogmatically by the Catholic Church until 1215. Included below is an Anglian
>> view for your perusal..................Errol
>
>
> You know absolutely nothing about what is or is not believed by the
> eastern Orthodox churches in relation to transubstantiation or indeed
> to anything else. Transubstantiation is, of course, an old obsession
> of yours, you pontificated about it on baha'i studies where you
> erroneously linked it to infallibility.
How can something I dont believe in be an obsession?
>
> I will not be attempting to explain it to you since if you cannot
> grasp what a "Bahooey" is you will hardly be able to take on board
> concepts of medieval scholastic thought. Nima explained it to you last
> year and if you didn't get it then you won't get it now.
Bahooey Invalid input. No entries found:
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary .
>
> There have always been different schools of thought in Christianity
> just as there have been in all of the world's major religions. Many
> Christians in Ireland have tried very hard to overcome the problems of
> the past, indeed, here in Dublin we have recently taken over a
> redundant Church of Ireland building at Harold's Cross with the C of
> I's blessing. The consecration of the new Russian Orthodox Church of
> SS Peter and Paul in February of this year was attended by a variety
> of ecclesiastical dignitaries including the Anglican Rector of
> Rathmines and Harold's Cross, the Papal Nuncio, and representatives
> from the Greek and Coptic churches. To further underscore just how far
> Ireland has moved on from the past there were a number of state
> dignitaries as well including the Lord Mayor of Dublin, European
> affairs minister Dick Roche, Michael Mulcahy TD and members of the
> Diplomatic Corps. It was a scene that would have been unimaginable in
> the Ireland of De Valera. Funny, but there were no complaints that day
> about hocus-pocus magic going on behind the Royal Doors from the
> 'Anglians' or anyone else. It was a wonderful occasion and one which
> made me proud to be an Irishwoman. I will always remember it.
You might have been proud but I doubt if the Pope would have agreed with
you. He has moved backward according to this article........Errol
Friday 2nd May, 2003
------------------------------------------------------------------------
A FALSE 'TRUTH'
It was most disappointing that on Maundy Thursday, Pope John Paul II issued
an encyclical, Ecclesia de Eucharistia, once again denigrating the sacrament
of Holy Communion in Protestant churches.
http://gazette.ireland.anglican.org/020503/editorial020503.htm
> So, actual Christians have moved on Errol, you are not a Christian and
> know nothing about the agenda that Irish churches are following. It
> is, thank God, very different to yours. Please stop making a fool of
> yourself talking about things you know nothing about, it is painful
> for me to witness.
Since when has one to declare oneself a Christian to be interested in Irish
Christianity, you dont own it you know?..........Errol
>
> Brid
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
"Eric Stetson" <erics...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f581312e.03091...@posting.google.com...
I don't think that Pat was promoting a literalist view, or in any way
himself accepting it as an article of personal faith - rather he was
endeavouring to explain a belief that many Christians have. As they regard
Transubstantiation as a miracle there will therefore be no apparent change
in the nature of the bread and wine.
The tomb would, of course, be empty. I believe the normal practice in those
days and in that place was to re-enter tombs after a year or so and gather
up the bones for them to be placed in an ossuary. An empty tomb is simply
evidence that a body has gone not that there has been a Resurrection. It
might have been stolen or the body might have been living when placed
therein. Before accepting that a Resurrection took place it is necessary to
prove a prior death. There is much circumstantial evidence in the Gospels
and elsewhere that suggests a death did not in fact occur. I am, of course,
merely making observations here and not promoting any doctrine or particular
point of view. Personally I am agnostic on the whole subject.
Seegar
MO...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>Thanks, Chris, I appreciate this, especially as, to the best of my
>recollection, we have never agreed on anything up until now.
No thanks needed and you're recollection is faulty:)
>
>I would not, for one moment suggest that anybody engage in a spamming
>contest. It would be totally counter productive. The spammer is the one
>who emerges worst from the activity. He is universally execrated. I do
>appreciate what you're saying, of course; he who spams the most will howl
>the harder when spammed against. But it would not help at all if he had a
>genuine case of being spammed against to howl about. I leave the spammer to
>his own devices for within them lie his own downfall at his own hands.
I wouldn't suggest that you take on Errol's method. I simply stated a
hypothetical course of action that perhaps might be instructive to
Errol. If I recollect correctly, he is fond of the saying, "What’s
sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander." It's a nasty business
that he is about.
>
>The best thing always has been and will be to engage in dialogue and
>argument, however heated, however intense the fury of the flame. It is the
>mark of the civilised being that he engages in debate and discussion seeking
>not so much to convert an opponent but to have him understand and comprehend
>another's POV. To descend to the vile tactics of the uninformed is to
>undermine the value of that verbal engagement with those with whom one does
>not agree.
>
>I like unmoderated fora on the NET - I will not be driven from them or
>forced to change my views or practice other than by the power of the
>intellectual argument presented. I especially value the way in which the
>vast majority of posters here abide by the unwritten code of Netiquette and
>engage in honourable combat
Character and destiny is built on everday choices. What we do today
will echo through eternity.
Peace,
Chris
Seegar
<sendither...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>No thanks needed and you're recollection is faulty:)
....and your... etc.
>
>Character and destiny is built on everday choices. What we do today
>will echo through eternity.
>
....destiny are...etc.
gads, I have to start proof reading my posts.
>Peace,
>
>Chris
Paul Hammond
> Hey St Paul of Hammond, you cant say I am hiding under Brid's skirts now
> like you accused me before? Remember Pat Kohli said he was only carrying
> out my request to report me to the UK NSA. Tell me do you still want me to
> carry out your request, and post Dermod's address?...............Errol
>
> "Paul Hammond" <paha...@onetel.net.uk> wrote in message
> news:c977f97b.03090...@posting.google.com...
>
> Why don't you post his address again, worm?
>
> > Paul tell me, do you get secret kicks out of Dermod and I fighting
>
> Yeah! I love to see Dermod wipe the floor with your arse
> - and that is no secret!
>
> Error why don't you shut the fuck up? You're tumbled! But before you shut
> the fuck up, why not tell us what it's like to be a disappointed saboteur?
>
I do not recognise these last two lines as part of my
post.
I believe Error has altered them, or written them
himself.
The reference to my message does not point to the
quoted message, but to a different post of mine
entirely.
There is something odd going on here.
Paul
errol9
sendither...@hotmail.com wrote on 15/9/03 5:13 pm:
> It's a nasty business that he is about.
It was also a nasty business Dermod was about.........Errol
Paul Hammond
> in article d5a5c190.03091...@posting.google.com, Brid at
> bridci...@yahoo.com wrote on 15/9/03 9:56 am:
>
> > errol9 <err...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> > news:<BB8B1E92.37FC3%err...@ntlworld.com>...
> >> Eric,
> >>
> >> This doctrine has always been a controversial hot potato among Christain
> >> theologians. Although the concept was and still is believed by the Eastern
> >> Orthodox Church, the actual term or word Transubstantiation was not defined
> >> dogmatically by the Catholic Church until 1215. Included below is an Anglian
> >> view for your perusal..................Errol
> >
> >
> > You know absolutely nothing about what is or is not believed by the
> > eastern Orthodox churches in relation to transubstantiation or indeed
> > to anything else. Transubstantiation is, of course, an old obsession
> > of yours, you pontificated about it on baha'i studies where you
> > erroneously linked it to infallibility.
>
> How can something I dont believe in be an obsession?
Because you are obssessed with ridiculing Catholics for
believing it - even though you don't understand what you
are ridiculing.
> >
> > I will not be attempting to explain it to you since if you cannot
> > grasp what a "Bahooey" is you will hardly be able to take on board
> > concepts of medieval scholastic thought. Nima explained it to you last
> > year and if you didn't get it then you won't get it now.
>
> Bahooey Invalid input. No entries found:
> http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary .
>
Yeah - how likely is it that the dictionary contains a
word Pat Kholi made up?
ARe you *really* so dense, or are you playing?
>
> Since when has one to declare oneself a Christian to be interested in Irish
> Christianity, you dont own it you know?..........Errol
>
I don't know Error, but you try to tell me that I can't
know anything about the Baha'i Faith because I've never
been a Baha'i, and that I can't know anything about
the AA because I've never had a drink problem.
Hypocrite!
Paul
QisQos
> would make them so, but He also directed the Apostles to celebrate the Last Supper in memory
> of Him. So, transubstantion is as easy as a) trusting Jesus that the bread and wine were His
> Body and Blood, and b) following His wishes in repeating the event. It is not magic, it is
> Luke 22:19-20.
>
> Best wishes,
> - Pat
> kohli at ameritel.net
Hello:
Just a brief comment, then I will leave again.
The Gospel of John Chapter 6 clearly defines the eucharistic bread as
the real and true body of Christ.
"Amen amen I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of Man
and drink his blood you will have no life in you"
This flesh and blood are then defined in Matthew 26:26 "Take ye and
eat this is my body" referring to the consecrated bread in his hands.
How and why is not for the Christian to question, but only to accept.
Furthermore the apostolic command to "Do this for a commemoration of
me" Luke 22:19
The commemoration is not a mere memorial service of honor - a
re-enactment of the Lord's Supper as some think, but the act of
transforming the species of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of
Christ in the holy sacrifice of the Mass.
that the dogma of transubstantiation was not defined until the IVth
Lateran council does mean that this was not the commonly held
tradition of the Church - in fact this was the common tradition of the
Church held by both the eastern rites and the Latin Rite: there was as
yet no protestant rebellion to call this into question.
(Which brings another fine question: do Luther, Cranmer, Knox, Calvin
and their doctrinal descendents mean to say that Christendom had it
all wrong for 1500 years until they came along with their ideas on
these matters?)
Now to understand transubstantiation requires certain insight which is
not present in modern materialist world views. Indeed to understand
the nature of the mystery one must have some grounding in Aristotelian
metaphysics - which is the basis of Thomism. Matter and substance are
not the same thing in this metaphysic and as such the appearance and
material properties of bread and wine are incidental and do not impose
upon the substantive reality of the form: by way of example the dark
skin of a Black does not make him unhuman - or a separate species, the
dark skin being a property of matter not essence.
The transubstantiation thus does not act upon the incidentals of
atomic structure or molecules, but acts on the substantive reality of
the matter at the level of its form. So one could look at eucharistic
bread using any manner of scientific instrumentation and perhaps see
only the properties of bread.
This does not subtract from the actual change which has occurred.
What was defined at the IV Lateran Council was the philosophical
manner in which the transubstantiation would be regarded in
speculation, since Jesus Christ himself instituted the
transubstantiation by decree "This is my Body" and did not delve into
how or why this is so.
So please forgive any errors which arise from this response due to my
own limitations and here is a reference which may help you (or may
not) have further insight.
Susan Maneck
>(Which brings another fine question: do Luther, Cranmer, Knox, Calvin
>and their doctrinal descendents mean to say that Christendom had it
>all wrong for 1500 years until they came along with their ideas on
>these matters?)
Dear Qis Qos,
Luther did not deny the real presence of the body and blood in the Eucharist.
He did not exactly believe in the doctrine of transsubstantiation as defined in
the Fourth Latern Council because it depended upon an Aristotilean metaphysics
of distinguishing between substance and accidents which Luther did not accept.
I'm not sure the Eastern Church accepts that either. But both accept the very
real presence in the eucharist, they simply don't deny that the elements cease
to be bread and wine at the same time as the Catholic doctrine of
transsubstantiation states. Now Zwingli did reject the Real Presence insisting
that the Eucharist was merely symbolic. For that reason Luther refused to
accept Zwingli as a Christian brother. Calvin took a somewhat intermediate
position. He held that the elements were physically bread and wine, but
spiritually the body and blood.
>What was defined at the IV Lateran Council was the philosophical
>manner in which the transubstantiation would be regarded in
>speculation,
Exactly. But that is the formula that Luther and likely the Greek church would
take issue with. And it wasn't 1500 years old.
warmest, Susan
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st
QisQos
>
> It was most disappointing that on Maundy Thursday, Pope John Paul II issued
> an encyclical, Ecclesia de Eucharistia, once again denigrating the sacrament
> of Holy Communion in Protestant churches.
>
> http://gazette.ireland.anglican.org/020503/editorial020503.htm
>
Errol:
this is an editorial with a rather biased interpretation of the Papal
encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistica.
Frankly I do not see how the editors of the material you cite come to
their conclusions.
"The fact that the power of consecrating the Eucharist has been
entrusted only to Bishops and priests does not represent any kind of
belittlement of the rest of the People of God, for in the communion of
the one body of Christ which is the Church this gift redounds to the
benefit of all."
-Ecclesia de Eucharistica
Read the English text of the encyclical here and come to an
independent conclusion not formed for you by angry editorialists:
Susan Maneck
>> an encyclical, Ecclesia de Eucharistia, once again denigrating the
>sacrament
>> of Holy Communion in Protestant churches.
Actually, the Catholic Church accepts the efficacy of the Eucharist when
performed by churches with have an apostolic succession such as the Anglican
Church.
Freethought110
> > Error why don't you shut the fuck up? You're tumbled! But before you shut
> > the fuck up, why not tell us what it's like to be a disappointed saboteur?
> >
>
> I do not recognise these last two lines as part of my
> post.
> I believe Error has altered them, or written them
> himself.
Obviously your anti-psychotic medication is failing you again. This is
the second time you've made such an accusation today when you yourself
have written something.
> The reference to my message does not point to the
> quoted message, but to a different post of mine
> entirely.
>
> There is something odd going on here.
Yup, it's called Paul Hammond the so called disappointed atheist and
his transparently bullshit story about being a non-baha'i.
errol9
Errol
in article c977f97b.03091...@posting.google.com, Paul Hammond at
paha...@onetel.net.uk wrote on 15/9/03 11:25 pm:
errol9
paha...@onetel.net.uk wrote on 15/9/03 11:25 pm:
> Because you are obssessed with ridiculing Catholics for
> believing it - even though you don't understand what you
> are ridiculing.
If I ridiculed anyone its St Paul of Hammond, who has attached another TRB
poster's scalp to his dirty little Hikmat belt. The trick of a Bahai AO mole
who hides behind the cloak of atheistism, yet zealously defends idolatry
within the cultish sect called Bahaism, while attacking imaginary Ulster
Prods who dont exist on TRB..................Errol
errol9
Qis...@aol.com wrote on 16/9/03 12:05 am:
> errol9 <err...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>> A FALSE 'TRUTH'
>>
>> It was most disappointing that on Maundy Thursday, Pope John Paul II issued
>> an encyclical, Ecclesia de Eucharistia, once again denigrating the sacrament
>> of Holy Communion in Protestant churches.
>>
>> http://gazette.ireland.anglican.org/020503/editorial020503.htm
>>
>
> Errol:
>
> this is an editorial with a rather biased interpretation of the Papal
> encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistica.
QisQos
The article's source may or may not be from a layperson. But It does come
from a Church of Ireland ( Anglican) gazettte (weekly newsmagazine)
> Frankly I do not see how the editors of the material you cite come to
> their conclusions.
Well the answer to that QisQos is simple. Would you as a practising
Catholic believe you fulfilled your religious duties by attending a
sacramental Eucuristic Holy communion service in a Protestant Church?
Because in 1997 the president of Ireland Mary McAleese attended such a
service in the Anglican Christ Church cathedral in Dublin and set in motion
one unholy inter church war of words amongst the Protestant & catholic
Clergy. The media had a field day which went on for months
>
> "The fact that the power of consecrating the Eucharist has been
> entrusted only to Bishops and priests does not represent any kind of
> belittlement of the rest of the People of God, for in the communion of
> the one body of Christ which is the Church this gift redounds to the
> benefit of all."
> -Ecclesia de Eucharistica
>
> Read the English text of the encyclical here and come to an
> independent conclusion not formed for you by angry editorialists:
Thank you, it is long I will read it later however I doubt if I will find
words in it saying. Catholics beware of attending a Protestant Communion
services like Mary McAleese the President of Ireland did back in 1997 or you
are from the high jump.
The belief in Transubstantiaton or the infallibility of the Pope is as
necessary to being a CIGS, as it is necessary for the belief of a BIGS that
all nine members of the UHJ have (collective) conferred infallibility.
Errol
errol9
sma...@aol.com wrote on 16/9/03 12:50 am:
>>> It was most disappointing that on Maundy Thursday, Pope John Paul II issued
>>> an encyclical, Ecclesia de Eucharistia, once again denigrating the
>> sacrament
>>> of Holy Communion in Protestant churches.
>
> Actually, the Catholic Church accepts the efficacy of the Eucharist when
> performed by churches with have an apostolic succession such as the Anglican
> Church.
Yeah, well Susan better come over here an tell that to the Hierarchy of the
Catholic Church in Ireland. They did not approve of the President of ireland
(A Catholic) attending communion in the Anglian Cathedral in Dublin in 1997.
The newspapers were full of their disapproval for months.
Errol
Paul Hammond
> So the Protestant hater AO Mole has become Brid's spokesperson now?
>
> Errol
>
I am not Brid's spokesman. I just can READ what she has WRITTEN.
Apparently, you don't understand your own obsession.
> >
> >>
> >> Since when has one to declare oneself a Christian to be interested in Irish
> >> Christianity, you dont own it you know?..........Errol
> >>
> >
> > I don't know Error, but you try to tell me that I can't
> > know anything about the Baha'i Faith because I've never
> > been a Baha'i, and that I can't know anything about
> > the AA because I've never had a drink problem.
> >
> > Hypocrite!
> >
> > Paul
Do you deny that you have previously strongly expressed
the opinion that no-one who is not an AA member is
entitled to express an opinion about the AA, and that
no-one who is not a Baha'i is entitled to express
an opinion about the Baha'i Faith?
If you are going to change the argument when it
might apply to you, then you are a hypocrite.
Paul
errol9
Errol
in article c977f97b.03091...@posting.google.com, Paul Hammond at
paha...@onetel.net.uk wrote on 16/9/03 9:49 am:
errol9
> errol9 <err...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:<BB8C70BA.3817C%err...@ntlworld.com>...
>> So the Protestant hater AO Mole has become Brid's spokesperson now?
>>
>> Errol
>>
>
> I am not Brid's spokesman. I just can READ what she has WRITTEN.
>
So you are not her spokeperson then tell me since when are you and Dermod
Ryder ( Two athiests) and Brid ( An orthodox christian) representatives for
the Roman Catholic Church in The United States of America?
Errol
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
"Freethought110" <freetho...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:83b59396.03091...@posting.google.com...
> paha...@onetel.net.uk (Paul Hammond) wrote in message
>
> > > Error why don't you shut the fuck up? You're tumbled! But before you
shut
> > > the fuck up, why not tell us what it's like to be a disappointed
saboteur?
> > >
> >
> > I do not recognise these last two lines as part of my
> > post.
>
> > I believe Error has altered them, or written them
> > himself.
>
> Obviously your anti-psychotic medication is failing you again. This is
> the second time you've made such an accusation today when you yourself
> have written something.
Actually those are my lines.
Paul Hammond
> St Paul of Hammond you are a Bahai AO Spook. Why dont you admit it.
>
> Errol
>
Do you deny that you have previously strongly expressed
Paul Hammond
You are a prod bigot, worm. You obsession with ridiculing
the Catholic belief in transubstantiation is just about
piece of evidence of your real views.
I don't see how Brid can stand you.
Paul
Paul Hammond
> in article 20030915205006...@mb-m28.aol.com, Susan Maneck at
> sma...@aol.com wrote on 16/9/03 12:50 am:
>
> >>> It was most disappointing that on Maundy Thursday, Pope John Paul II issued
> >>> an encyclical, Ecclesia de Eucharistia, once again denigrating the
> sacrament
> >>> of Holy Communion in Protestant churches.
> >
> > Actually, the Catholic Church accepts the efficacy of the Eucharist when
> > performed by churches with have an apostolic succession such as the Anglican
> > Church.
>
> Yeah, well Susan better come over here an tell that to the Hierarchy of the
> Catholic Church in Ireland. They did not approve of the President of ireland
> (A Catholic) attending communion in the Anglian Cathedral in Dublin in 1997.
> The newspapers were full of their disapproval for months.
>
> Errol
>
Hmm. The further yappings of a prod bigot.
It all just looks like more arsebiscuits to me!
Paul
Sekhmet
>George wrote:
>> (A Catholic) attending communion in the Anglian Cathedral in
>>Dublin in 1997.
>> The newspapers were full of their disapproval for months.
>>
>> Errol
>>
>
>Hmm. The further yappings of a prod bigot.
>
>It all just looks like more arsebiscuits to me!
And he's slandering the Anglians again too!
--Sekhmet
Paul Hammond
So, why is Error trying to pass them off as mine?
And why has he pasted the link to a totally different
message of mine above my words before replying to them?
Is this part of the "incompetent sabateur"'s job training,
to badly doctor posts before replying to them?
Paul
Paul Hammond
> Hey St Paul of Hammond, you cant say I am hiding under Brid's skirts now
> like you accused me before? Remember Pat Kohli said he was only carrying
> out my request to report me to the UK NSA. Tell me do you still want me to
> carry out your request, and post Dermod's address?...............Errol
>
I have noticed that Error has avoided making any comment
at all on the most important point of my last post - preferring
to doctor an earlier post of mine, and indulge in further
childish name-calling.
While we were talking about Error's posting of news stories
about child abuse within the Catholic Church, we come to the
following exchange:
>>>> I was never a Catholic.
>>>
>>> Indeed, but that has never stopped you talking a lot of nonsense about
>>> Catholicism on this and other forums.
>>
>> Well that is your opinion.
>>
>
> Child abuse is a problem that everyone should be worried about,
> and do whatever they can to prevent.
>
> It doesn't make any difference whether the abusers are
> Catholic priests, care-home teachers, or the man who
> lives down the road. It is the business of us all to
> prevent it.
>
> But, using a scandal within the catholic church as a
> debating move to try to shut someone up when you find
> out that they are a catholic is the action of a worm.
>
> Saying "I am not a catholic, so I have nothing to
> do with it" is bollocks, quite frankly.
I note that Errol has no comment on my thoughts about
child abuse here.
Child abuse was a subject that Errol chose to raise.
I think that child abuse is everyone's problem, whoever
is doing it - and that dividing your responses to it
along sectarian lines - saying "I am not a catholic,
so the child abuse carried out by Catholic priest
is nothing to do with me" is a very feeble cop out,
and no kind of reaction at all to what is a serious
and life-scarring problem, for abused kids and their
families.
Errol, one of the reasons why I think you are a
worm is because you would raise the serious subject
of child abuse as nothing more than a ploy to shut
up an internet poster you don't want to argue
seriously with.
Child abuse is too important a subject to be treated
in this way.
I think the fact that you have nothing to say,
seriously, about the subject when someone does say
something about it shows exactly what kind of a
game you are playing here.
It is another piece of evidence that your sense of
shame is abnormally atrophied.
Paul
errol9
request, and post Dermod's address?...............Errol
in article c977f97b.03091...@posting.google.com, Paul Hammond at
paha...@onetel.net.uk wrote on 17/9/03 2:54 am:
QisQos
> necessary to being a CIGS, as it is necessary for the belief of a BIGS that
> all nine members of the UHJ have (collective) conferred infallibility.
>
>
> Errol
George you really could just drop the issue. You are not a Christian
from what I can tell - correct me if I am wrong - and as such the
matter is of no import to you.
The infallibility of the Pope only pertains to when he speaks ex
cathedra and on matters of dogma. Vatican II for that matter was not a
dogmatic council and its constitutions and the commentaries of the
current Pope are not considered part of the infallible magisterium.
Transubstantiation was formalized in the Ecumenical Councils, most
thoroughly at Trent, but has been accepted as a matter of belief by
Christians from the Crucifixion until the Protestant Reformation.
The act of consecration of the species of bread and wine is only an
office of those who hold a valid apostolic ordination to the
priesthood, this means Catholics, Orthodox, Syrian and Coptic Rite and
a few others. Anglican ordinations are somewhat in question, and as
such the validity of their sacraments are likewise dubious.
If you are interested, the question of the validity of Anglican orders
may be found at the Catholic Encyclopedia on-line:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01491a.htm
But the refusal of intercommunion for Catholics is not based upon mere
political animus as you would suggest, but upon clear and
theologically determined principles.
A valid sacrament must have three things: matter, form and intent. The
question of Anglican validity pertains to the "form" of the sacrament
of Holy Orders as you will read in the above reference. Similarly, the
"intent" and the "form" of Lutheran and other protestant "communion"
are not in keeping with the strict definition which was instituted by
Jesus Christ: "This IS my Body" "This IS my blood": to say they are
mere symbols or metaphors as many protestants hold is contrary to the
"intent" which is "Do THIS as a commemoration of me", "This" being the
consecration of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ . And
this consecration can only be done by a priest who has received valid
Holy Orders. Clearly someone who holds Holy Communion as a mere
ceremony of symbolic import has not kept the intent of the sacramental
act and as such invalidity obtains. Likewise the "matter" must be
bread and wine: things such as sugar, salt, flavoring, etc. make the
sacrament invalid as well and recently some innovators in the Catholic
Church have come under criticism for making "cookies" instead of
offering the sacrifice of the Mass. The form, the words of
consecration, must also be strictly adhered to.
Thus for a Catholic to intentionally take an invalidly consecrated
host is sacreligious, and your government official was incorrect in
her actions.
In sum, your condemnations of Catholic practise have nothing to do
with the discussions of this list, and while there may be a superfical
resemblance of Catholic religious dogma to the authoritarian practices
of the bahai hierarchy, this resemblance is just that, superficial.
Apart from appearing dogmatic and inflexible to modern liberals, the
appearance is only a resemblance in outward appearance, the underlying
rationales are quite different. - one is an apostolic office
originating with Jesus Christ Himself, the other being an
interpretation of a secondary document by the son of Bahaullah.
The latter, being the Will and Testament of Abdul Baha, speaks to a
Universal House of Justice headed by a Guardian. If you are a Bahai,
then you can and must adhere to the principles of your Faith, which
means obeying the UHJ whether this is divinely instituted is a matter
of faith (I don't believe they are, but then I am not a Bahai, nor do
I pretend to be). If you cannot do this then you must find a religion
that you can practice in its fulness, just as I must adhere to the
laws and obligations of the Catholic Faith . Without this you are
only picking and choosing to believe whatever suits your fancy and
someone like this has no faith at all - something like the New Age
movement which is all about feeling good and being one's own god, but
has no basis in faith whatsoever.
Thus all of the complaints about censorship are simply hot air. last I
checked, the BF was not authored by Thomas Jefferson. If you are going
to write about your religion as a Bahai, then you are subject to peer
review and correction: something which Juan Cole and Fred Glaysher
seem to have misunderstood. Peer review is practiced in every academic
circle, just as Cole cannot write what he pleases to his academic
journals without being subject to peer review (although in the soft
fields of the humanities, peer review appears to be less rigorous, and
content more speculative), why should he be allowed to write on
matters of the Bahai faith without review from Bahai institutions?
Likewise all of this cry about independent investigation of truth
being violated is silly: nobody appears to be prevented from doing so,
however, one cannot simply publish one's uninformed and erroneous
opinions as if they are the truth - which is something that academic
publication gives color to.
But this message is too long already.
In conclusion George, your comparison of the Catholic Church with the
Bahai situation is based only on a superficial resemblance to
something you consider authoritarianism. But authority is good as we
are discovering in our disordered world. Of course you can waste your
whole life following the premise of the 60's "do your own thing" and
wind up begging on a street corner or in gaol, but if you want to get
anywhere in life, you have to understand that there are rules and
always someone is the boss.
errol9
> George you really could just drop the issue. You are not a Christian
> from what I can tell - correct me if I am wrong - and as such the
> matter is of no import to you.
I am not a member of any *ORGANISED* religion since resigning my membership
from the cult Bahaism one year ago. I had terrible problems accepting
Bahau'llah as the Second coming of Christ during my 13 years as a Bahai.
But I believe in the first coming of Christ, and since when does one have
to believe in (The catholic view) of Transubstantiaton to become a
Christian? Otherwise Eric Stetson and numerous others along with myself
(who wishes to keep the Christian door open) would be cast as heritic non
Christians by certain extreme right wing Catholics if they had their way.
in article f581312e.03091...@posting.google.com, Eric Stetson at
erics...@yahoo.com wrote on 15/9/03 5:04 am:
> Therefore, in my view the Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation is
> erroneous.
I have every right in a western world of free sheech to believe like Eric
does that transubstantiation is erroneous............Errol
Susan Maneck
>dogmatic council
Dear QisQos,
Was Vatican I a dogmatic council?
>Anglican ordinations are somewhat in question, and as
>such the validity of their sacraments are likewise dubious.
My understanding is that Anglican ordinations *are* accepted, such that if an
Anglican priest becomes a Catholic he can function as a priest within the
Catholic church even if he is married.
>If you are interested, the question of the validity of Anglican orders
>may be found at the Catholic Encyclopedia on-line:
>
>http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01491a.htm
That encyclopedia was written at the beginning of the twentieth century. I
don't think it is a good reflection of current church policy.
> Similarly, the
>"intent" and the "form" of Lutheran and other protestant "communion"
>are not in keeping with the strict definition which was instituted by
>Jesus Christ: "This IS my Body"
But Lutherans *do* believe this, as do Anglicans. They simply reject the
Aristotilean metaphysics which was used to explain this in the Fourth Lateran
Council. That was not an element of Christian belief until the High Middle
Ages.
>Likewise the "matter" must be
>bread and wine: things such as sugar, salt, flavoring, etc. make the
>sacrament invalid as well
What's your source for this?
> the underlying
>rationales are quite different. - one is an apostolic office
>originating with Jesus Christ Himself, the other being an
>interpretation of a secondary document by the son of Bahaullah.
Uh, 'Abdu'l-Baha's authority comes from an office given Him directly by
Baha'u'llah. If anything that authority is much better established than the
apostolic authority of the church.
>If you cannot do this then you must find a religion
>that you can practice in its fulness, just as I must adhere to the
>laws and obligations of the Catholic Faith . Without this you are
>only picking and choosing to believe whatever suits your fancy
I think that was the whole idea of George's leaving the Faith, so he could have
things his own way.
Eric Stetson
> in article 29a4262b.03091...@posting.google.com, QisQos at
> Qis...@aol.com wrote on 17/9/03 1:48 pm:
>
> > George you really could just drop the issue. You are not a Christian
> > from what I can tell - correct me if I am wrong - and as such the
> > matter is of no import to you.
>
> I am not a member of any *ORGANISED* religion since resigning my membership
> from the cult Bahaism one year ago. I had terrible problems accepting
> Bahau'llah as the Second coming of Christ during my 13 years as a Bahai.
> But I believe in the first coming of Christ, and since when does one have
> to believe in (The catholic view) of Transubstantiaton to become a
> Christian? Otherwise Eric Stetson and numerous others along with myself
> (who wishes to keep the Christian door open) would be cast as heritic non
> Christians by certain extreme right wing Catholics if they had their way.
I agree, George can certainly be a Christian without belonging to any
church or believing in transubstantiation or many other doctrines of
Catholic Christianity. According to Saint Paul, "if you confess with
your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised
him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9). In other words,
the door is open to a lot of people to be Christians who don't agree
with much of traditional Christianity; whereas salvation is uncertain
for a lot of people who call themselves "Christian" but who don't
believe Jesus rose from the dead as the Bible adamantly proclaims --
for the resurrection is the backbone of Christianity.
I have a friend who believes strongly that Jesus is Lord and that He
rose from the dead, and he testifies to this belief quite frequently,
but he hardly ever goes to church. As far as I'm concerned, this man
is more Christian than a lot of people who go to church every Sunday.
Best,
Eric
QisQos
> does that transubstantiation is erroneous............Errol
Well freely *sheech* all you want in the western world or the east,
George, it is after all your claimed right to free sheech and I doubt
anyone is going to care to stop you from *sheeching*.
Take care now.
QisQos
Susan, the answers to your questions can be found on-line in the
library section at ewtn.com.
Thanks for your interest in this discussion, but it is really over for
me.
QisQos
QisQos
> church or believing in transubstantiation or many other doctrines of
> Catholic Christianity. According to Saint Paul, "if you confess with
> your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised
> him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9). In other words,
> the door is open to a lot of people to be Christians who don't agree
> with much of traditional Christianity; whereas salvation is uncertain
> for a lot of people who call themselves "Christian" but who don't
> believe Jesus rose from the dead as the Bible adamantly proclaims --
> for the resurrection is the backbone of Christianity.
>
> I have a friend who believes strongly that Jesus is Lord and that He
> rose from the dead, and he testifies to this belief quite frequently,
> but he hardly ever goes to church. As far as I'm concerned, this man
> is more Christian than a lot of people who go to church every Sunday.
>
> Best,
> Eric
You can claim to be whatever you wish, however, using one Bible verse
taken out of context may not be the answer.
Here are some others to give pause for thought:
"Revelation 2:5
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the
first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove
thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. "
Repentance, and works are necessary for salvation, contrary to your
assertion that faith alone is needed.
revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the
commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
PATIENCE and KEEPING the COMMANDMENTS off GOD is needed in addition to
FAITH, how much more obvious can this be? This includes the 10 of
Moses, the 2 of Jesus, and those of Paul and Peter and the other
apostles which may be found in the NT if you wish to read it for other
than those few verses which you are obviously familiar with.
Revelation 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the
dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit,
that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Labours and WORKS, works which last beyond the grave. You may claim to
be saved with faith alone, but what works will follow you from
presuming upon the mercy of God?
Justiication by Faith alone is a slacker's gospel and not the gospel
which Paul preached:
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto
you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As
we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel
unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." Galatians
1:8-9
Paul argued againt the preaching of the works of the Law as
sufficient, this does not mean that faith alone justifies. And what
are the fruits of faith...WORKS!
So simply going around boasting of one's salvation through faith and
having nothing else to show for it like CHARITY (AGAPE) is vain:
I Cor 13:
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give
my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4. Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity
vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5. Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily
provoked, thinketh no evil;
6. Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7. Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things,
endureth all things.
8. Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall
fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be
knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part
shall be done away.
11. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I
thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish
things.
12. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now
I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the
greatest of these is charity.
Charity, which is not "faith" per se is also required, and judging
from this passage, Charity is other than giving riches to the poor.
One must live by the fruits of the spirit, for against such there is
no law.
Now, the spirituality of the Catholic Church, misunderstood completely
by many catholics and non-catholics as well is the surest way to
develop the comprehensive range of spiritual gifts, and the surest way
to salvation - IF the path is followed seriously, and not simply as a
set of rules and ritual, the reason and will must be engaged: "must be
present to win".
For those who think that by casting a shadow on the Church steps on
Sunday or that getting baptized in someone's swimming pool is enough,
who can say if that is enough, but I would not presume upon the mercy
of God.
Me, I am only a repentant sinner, what do I know?
QisQos
QisQos
> church or believing in transubstantiation or many other doctrines of
> Catholic Christianity. According to Saint Paul, "if you confess with
> your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised
> him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9). In other words,
> the door is open to a lot of people to be Christians who don't agree
> with much of traditional Christianity; whereas salvation is uncertain
> for a lot of people who call themselves "Christian" but who don't
> believe Jesus rose from the dead as the Bible adamantly proclaims --
> for the resurrection is the backbone of Christianity.
>
> I have a friend who believes strongly that Jesus is Lord and that He
> rose from the dead, and he testifies to this belief quite frequently,
> but he hardly ever goes to church. As far as I'm concerned, this man
> is more Christian than a lot of people who go to church every Sunday.
>
> Best,
> Eric
You can claim to be whatever you wish, however, using one Bible verse