The Pope on the need for a new world order
Brid
Pope delivers New Year speech
Jan 02, 2004
The world needs a "new international order" to solve its conflicts and
ensure peace, Pope John Paul said in his New Year's Day address.
"More than ever we need a new international order which draws on the
experience and results of the United Nations," the 83-year-old pontiff
said at a mass in St Peter's Basilica.
"An order which is capable of finding adequate solutions to today's
problems, based on the dignity of human beings, on integrating all
society, on solidarity between rich and poor countries, on the sharing
of resources and the extraordinary results of scientific and
technological progress," he added.
The leader of the world's one billion Catholics, who suffers from
Parkinson's disease, seemed alert and read all of his homily in a
clear voice.
(c) Reuters
http://onenews.nzoom.com/onenews_detail/0,1227,246252-1-9,00.html
Randy Burns
the hearts of God-fearing souls everywhere, and is non-sectarian by nature.
The same World Order proclaimed by Baha'u'llah before his kinsfolk patented
his ideas and put a sectarian name stamp on it.
Cheers, Randy
--
"Brid" <bridci...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d5a5c190.04010...@posting.google.com...
Susan Maneck
>Is His Holiness now really a Baha'i but doesn't know it? :-)
>
>
Ask Robert. Maybe he's the anti-Christ. ;-}
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st
John R MacLeod
>
driven to the new truth. It doesn't matter our labels and whether our new
knowledge is a 'known known' or an 'unknown known'. God has changed reality
and everybody from the Pope downwards is slowly coming to terms with this.
Did we not all, including the Pope, answer 'Yes!' when God asked 'Am I not
your Lord?"? .
Susan Maneck
>his ideas and put a sectarian name stamp on it.
Dear Randy,
If you mean before Baha'u'llah established the Covenant giving certain of His
descendents authority, aren't you forgetting it was He Himself who did this?
Besides you are the one who is always arguing that Shoghi Effendi deliberately
expelled all of Baha'u'llah's kinsmen so that they *wouldn't* have any power.
Now you want to blame them for making the Baha'i Faith into a religion?
Perhaps you'd be happier following Ruth White?
Susan
QisQos
The bahaist religion does not hold a patent on world community, nor is
it the origin of many of the ideas which bahaists claim originated
with Baha Ullah in the late 19th century.
First and foremost, Catholicity is based upon the greek word for
"Universal", as such the Catholic Church is One, Holy, Universal and
Apostolic under the Kingship of Christ, the Logos Incarnate.
The Catholic Church does not recognize the claims of Baha Ullah or for
that matter Mahomet or any of the other pretenders to divinity, nor is
it likely ever to do so since the foundation of the Catholic Church is
based upon the faith in the bodily Incarnation, Crucifixion, Death ,
Resurrection and Ascension of Our Lord Jesus Christ in Body, not
merely figuratively as Abdu Baha states in some of his ill informed
statements about Christianity. He is God, and God is One in Three
Divine Persons, and Christ Jesus is the Son of God, True God and True
Man - this the bahaist writings deny - so when Jesus asks "Am I not
your Lord", the bahaist answer is evidently "No", the "non serviam" of
Lucifer Satan, who like bahaists and mahometans was to proud to bow to
the Logos Incarnate in the Flesh. The Incarnation of Divinity is
something of a stumbling block for mahamtans and bahaists -
consequently the whole mazhaullah concept, a Platonic idealism which
does not partake of the limitations of flesh. But truly, Jesus
Incarnated, died and resurrected and this very flesh ascended to
heaven and will return to judge the living and the dead and His
kingdom will have no end.
\
Now while you may not realize it, prior to the protestant revolutions
of the 16th century, universalism was common to the civilization known
as Christendom and a unity was present across much of Europe and was
destined to spread globally until Luther, Calvin and their heretical
creeds caused disunity and division by exalting the supremacy of the
individual over the Church.
What the Pope is calling forth is a renewal of the Apostolic mission
under which the diversity of humanity is sheltered under the motherly
arms of Rome - as it was for 1500 years in Europe and the Americas,
until the mischief caused by the protestants caused centuries of
discord in the homeland of Christendom and around the world.
There is nothing bahai about the Pope's statements, nor is the bahaist
vision anything but borrowed from the catholic vision of one humanity
united heirarchically in the Body of Christ, The Church.
If you study the magisterium of the Holy Roman Catholic Church you
will see just how erroneous the opinions of Baha Ullah and Mahomet
have been with regard to the nature of Christ and his Church.
Quis Qous
Rod
> Perhaps you'd be happier following Ruth White?
As happy as you following Neo Tech?
Dermod Ryder
"Susan Maneck " <sma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040102134855...@mb-m24.aol.com...
> Perhaps you'd be happier following Ruth White?
Great idea! Best one you've yet had! It would certainly send the Remeyites
flying!
Susan Maneck
>does not partake of the limitations of flesh.
The Logos doctrine of John's Gospel is a good example of Platonism as well.
John R MacLeod
"QisQos" <Qis...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:29a4262b.04010...@posting.google.com...
>
> The bahaist religion does not hold a patent on world community, nor is
> it the origin of many of the ideas which bahaists claim originated
> with Baha Ullah in the late 19th century.
I didn't say we held a patent, I don't say these ideas originated with
Baha'u'llah. What I do say is that sometime over the last two or three
hundred years the nature of human society changed utterly and totally. Draw
a graph of just about measure of human activity over the last say 10000
years and you'll get explosive, exponential growth at this end of the
scale. (or decrease if you pick something like the time to send a message
from Iceland to the Sudan),
I'm not much interested in the ideas -it was reality that changed.
>
> First and foremost, Catholicity is based upon the greek word for
> "Universal", as such the Catholic Church is One, Holy, Universal and
> Apostolic under the Kingship of Christ, the Logos Incarnate.
So what? I'm not saying its not but are you arguing that everything is as
we describe it?
>
> The Catholic Church does not recognize the claims of Baha Ullah or for
> that matter Mahomet or any of the other pretenders to divinity,
They don't care. Reality has moved on and you are barking even after the
caravan has gone.
.
> nor is
> it likely ever to do so since the foundation of the Catholic Church is
> based upon the faith in the bodily Incarnation, Crucifixion, Death ,
> Resurrection and Ascension of Our Lord Jesus Christ in Body, not
> merely figuratively as Abdu Baha states in some of his ill informed
> statements about Christianity. He is God, and God is One in Three
> Divine Persons, and Christ Jesus is the Son of God, True God and True
> Man -
Frankly, this is nonsense to me. Ascension in body? "Besides, of what
profit would it be to the world were such a thing to take place?"
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 112) (actually said about the wolf and
the lamb but applies to this)
> this the bahaist writings deny - so when Jesus asks "Am I not
> your Lord", the bahaist answer is evidently "No", the "non serviam" of
> Lucifer Satan, who like bahaists and mahometans was to proud to bow to
> the Logos Incarnate in the Flesh. The Incarnation of Divinity is
> something of a stumbling block for mahamtans and bahaists -
> consequently the whole mazhaullah concept, a Platonic idealism which
> does not partake of the limitations of flesh. But truly, Jesus
> Incarnated, died and resurrected and this very flesh ascended to
> heaven and will return to judge the living and the dead and His
Sorry, don't understand 'ascended to heaven' - no idea what you mean by
it.
> kingdom will have no end.
> \
> Now while you may not realize it, prior to the protestant revolutions
> of the 16th century, universalism was common to the civilization known
> as Christendom and a unity was present across much of Europe
And indeed similar vaguely unified civilisations (marred like Europe by
internal fighting) existed in other areas some of them much bigger and more
populated than Europe. But reality has changed - new technology calls for
global governance as the Pope has correctly called it.
> and was
> destined to spread globally until Luther, Calvin and their heretical
> creeds caused disunity and division by exalting the supremacy of the
> individual over the Church.
Its a strange destiny that doesn't happen.
>
> What the Pope is calling forth is a renewal of the Apostolic mission
> under which the diversity of humanity is sheltered under the motherly
> arms of Rome - as it was for 1500 years in Europe and the Americas,
1500 years in the Americas?
> until the mischief caused by the protestants caused centuries of
> discord in the homeland of Christendom and around the world.
M\aybe he calls for that but as Brid's posting made clear he was more
directly calling for a new political world order to bring peace to the
world. Good on him!
>
> There is nothing bahai about the Pope's statements, nor is the bahaist
> vision anything but borrowed from the catholic vision of one humanity
> united heirarchically in the Body of Christ, The Church.
I'm not really interested in who had the ideas first - I'm sure the vision
of one world united can be traced back a long way. But now its not an idea
any longer - its a practical task we should be getting on with.
I never said the Pope got his ideas from the Baha'i Faith - I think he got
them from God and looking at the world with practical eyes..
>
> If you study the magisterium of the Holy Roman Catholic Church you
> will see just how erroneous the opinions of Baha Ullah and Mahomet
> have been with regard to the nature of Christ and his Church.
Frankly, I don't think it matters much. That kind of doctrine driven
religion is the past.
>
> Quis Qous
Pat Kohli
John R MacLeod wrote:
> "QisQos" <Qis...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:29a4262b.04010...@posting.google.com...
> >
> (snip)
>
> >
> > The Catholic Church does not recognize the claims of Baha Ullah or for
> > that matter Mahomet or any of the other pretenders to divinity,
>
> They don't care. Reality has moved on and you are barking even after the
> caravan has gone.
> .
> > nor is
> > it likely ever to do so since the foundation of the Catholic Church is
> > based upon the faith in the bodily Incarnation, Crucifixion, Death ,
> > Resurrection and Ascension of Our Lord Jesus Christ in Body, not
> > merely figuratively as Abdu Baha states in some of his ill informed
> > statements about Christianity. He is God, and God is One in Three
> > Divine Persons, and Christ Jesus is the Son of God, True God and True
> > Man -
>
> Frankly, this is nonsense to me. Ascension in body? "Besides, of what
> profit would it be to the world were such a thing to take place?"
> (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 112) (actually said about the wolf and
> the lamb but applies to this)
>
It gets curiouser. Had you seen what Blessed Jesus Christ had said about
Resurrection from the dead?
"And he said, `No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead,
they will repent.' He said to him, `If they do not hear Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead."
Luke 16:30,31
Despite the clear teachings of Blessed Jesus Christ on the unity of God, some
rebel, and instead proclaim that God is three persons. Having done that, they
then turn to those who will not join them, and say,
>
> > this the bahaist writings deny - so when Jesus asks "Am I not
> > your Lord", the bahaist answer is evidently "No", the "non serviam" of
> > Lucifer Satan, who like bahaists and mahometans was to proud to bow to
> > the Logos Incarnate in the Flesh. The Incarnation of Divinity is
> > something of a stumbling block for mahamtans and bahaists -
> > consequently the whole mazhaullah concept, a Platonic idealism which
> > does not partake of the limitations of flesh. But truly, Jesus
> > Incarnated, died and resurrected and this very flesh ascended to
> > heaven and will return to judge the living and the dead and His
>
> Sorry, don't understand 'ascended to heaven' - no idea what you mean by
> it.
>
> > kingdom will have no end.
> > \
> > Now while you may not realize it, prior to the protestant revolutions
> > of the 16th century, universalism was common to the civilization known
> > as Christendom and a unity was present across much of Europe
>
> And indeed similar vaguely unified civilisations (marred like Europe by
> internal fighting) existed in other areas some of them much bigger and more
> populated than Europe. But reality has changed - new technology calls for
> global governance as the Pope has correctly called it.
>
Someone wants to pretend that centuries before the Protestant Reformation,
western Christendom had a crusade whose object was the invasion of eastern
Christendom.
> (snip)
>
> >
> > Quis Qous
(cringe) What happened to the traditional spelling, Qisqos?
QisQos
>
> I'm not much interested in the ideas -it was reality that changed.
>
> >
Hello:
Reality is pretty much the same as it always has been. Muddled "new
age" type "age of aquarius" 60's style personal ontologism is not
going to make a "new reality".
Changes in technology do not forge new reality - nor did Baha Allah,
nor is Baha Allah's so-called "manifestation" responsible for changes
in the state of human affairs, for weal or woe.
Reality is pretty standard, and your comment reminds me of 60's
acid-freak dialectic ala Timothy Leary and the host of other 60's
American hippie vegan civil rights crackpots, no small number of which
apparently entered the bahaist religion at that time believing as Mama
Cass sang "there's a new world comin'". Changes in one's
"perspective" do not alter reality. Clearly the reality of humanity
is the same as ever, imbued with the Fall and stain of Original Sin.
And the world, suffering under the burden of man's rebellion and
refusal to accept the saving sacrifice of Jesus Christ on Calvary,
chasing instead after the false promises of secular peace and security
offered by false prophets like Baha Allah, and man made idols like the
UN.
Of course mahometanism and bahaism spring from the remnants of the
Arian heresy in Arabia consequently, it is no hard thing for bahaists
to mock the truth of the Trinity. Oh well, as you can see, despite the
superficial resemblance of the Pope's statements to the bahaist
concept of world unity, the Pope, believing as he does in the Holy
Trinity is a far cry from being a bahaist.
QQ
John R MacLeod
news:<bt6c6j$3mb99$1@ID-SNIP
> >
> > I'm not much interested in the ideas -it was reality that changed.
> >
> > >
> SNIP
>
> Hello:
>
> Reality is pretty much the same as it always has been. Muddled "new
> age" type "age of aquarius" 60's style personal ontologism is not
> going to make a "new reality".
>
You're arguing against something I never said and actually I would agree
with you. New age thinking about age of aquarius and similar stuff is just
another dogma like yours - all ideas no facts. However the fact that I can
now without moving from my armchair get a message to almost anywhere in the
world in minutes at most is a change in reality. So is the fact that I can
in a matter of hours find out reasonably accurate information about the
population, beliefs, and customs of any country in the world.
In one week of my life I am liable to meet more people who were born say
more than a thousand miles from my birthplace than my great grandfather
would have met in his entire life. I am statistically far more likely to
marry a foreigner than any of my ancestors were (and in fact I have done
twice). Many, many, more people are living in countries they weren't born
in than at any period in earth's history. The number of financial
transactions involving different currencies done in a single day now
probably exceeds the sum total of all such transactions done up to say 1700.
Take any aspect of human life as it is actually lived and the changes are
self-evident. Family? measure the average distance between the places of
abode of all cousins and compare it with the past. Employment? compare the
percentage of people working at agricultural labour now compared with two
centuries ago. Life expectancy? I saw a statistic recently that showed that
even in the least favoured countries of the world life expectancy exceeds
that of Europe in the middle ages. I actually have some doubts about that
one but the trend is clear-cut.
Perhaps the most significant thing is that if you take any two current human
beings at random the chances that they have at least one common language is
far higher now (with English and Pu Tong Hua leading the way) than it has
ever been before and it is increasing significantly on a yearly basis. The
chances that they eat the same food, read the same books, watch the same
television programmes, listen to the same music, and use the same consumer
products is also unprecedented.
You're right - 'new age' thinking is rubbish. So is 'old age' thinking.
Why not wake up?
The rest of your post seems to be just you being rude about what you
completely incorrectly assume to be my understanding of Baha'ism.
QisQos
http://www.cathnews.com/news/401/5.php
Too many Islamic countries treat their Christian minorities as
second-class citizens, barring church building, while Western states
let their Muslims build mosques freely, the former foreign minister of
the Vatican, Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran says in a widely reported
article.
Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran, who recently retired as the Vatican's
foreign minister, told the French Catholic daily La Croix this week
that Christianity and Islam faced "an enormous task" of learning to
live together in mutual tolerance.
Cardinal Tauran was the latest and highest-ranking Catholic to worry
about Vatican relations with Muslims, an issue seen as central for
whoever succeeds Pope John Paul.
"There are too many majority Muslim countries where non-Muslims are
second-class citizens," said Cardinal Tauran, the church's top
diplomat for 13 years before he had to step aside when he was made a
cardinal.
Stressing the need to respect minorities, he singled out "the extreme
case of Saudi Arabia, where freedom of religion is violated absolutely
- no Christian churches and a ban on celebrating Mass, even in a
private home.
"Just like Muslims can build their houses of prayer anywhere in the
world, the faithful of other religions should be able to do so as
well," he said.
Cal E. Rollins
Now you're talking! Maybe His Holiness will be the last Pope so many
Baha'is used to talk about, and he'll do for the Faith what Constantine
did for the Church? What job do you think he'll have in the
Administration? Could he be appointed Honorary King of the World, or
what? --Cal
QisQos
> now without moving from my armchair get a message to almost anywhere in the
> world in minutes at most is a change in reality.
So you can send messages by the internet, big deal, in 40 years or so
you will be quite dead - of what use will it avail you then?
The reality that matters is this:
Jesus Christ, the Word of God, consubstantial with the Father,
conceived in the womb of Mary Immaculate, was born, was crucified for
our sins, died and was buried. He resurrected from the dead and
ascended into heaven, from which he will return to judge the living
and the dead. At the judgement, those who are dead will be resurrected
in the flesh to receive with those living the judgement as dispensed
by the second person of the Holy Trinity, the very same Jesus Christ
who was born in Bethlehem some 2000 years ago.
That is the only reality that matters .
QQ
Pat Kohli
QisQos wrote:
> Islam not as tolerant as us:
> http://www.cathnews.com/news/401/5.php
>
> Too many Islamic countries treat their Christian minorities as
> second-class citizens, barring church building, while Western states
> let their Muslims build mosques freely, the former foreign minister of
> the Vatican, Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran says in a widely reported
> article.
"Western states" is not synonymous with "Roman Catholic states". I'd have
thought you knew that.
How many mosques has the Vatican let up?
(snip)
Best wishes!
- Pat
Pat Kohli
QisQos wrote:
I see. The question is not whether the objective reality of human existence has changed over the centuries. The
question is really, has QQ's reality changed over the centuries, and the answer to that is obvious - anything that
might be construed as change can be dismissed as an individual's maturation.
Thank you for playing!
- Pat
kohli at ameritel.net
Dermod Ryder
"Pat Kohli" <kohliCUT...@ameritel.net> wrote in message
news:3FF7742D...@ameritel.net...
> I see. The question is not whether the objective reality of human
existence has changed over the centuries. The
> question is really, has QQ's reality changed over the centuries, and the
answer to that is obvious - anything that
> might be construed as change can be dismissed as an individual's
maturation.
I had to re-read that - I'm glad you wrote "maturation." Although, come to
think of it, ny initial reading is probably much more in accord with QQ's
mindset.
Dermod Ryder
"Cal E. Rollins" <crol...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:17612-3F...@storefull-2331.public.lawson.webtv.net...
And why not? After all his predecessors harboured and for a time exercised
the current fantasies of Haifa - world domination, control of government,
heretics to the stake etc.
Sufi Babi
Claudia Starr Saffa once told me that you are Harry Ali Duran, aka
Coraxo. If so when did you go from being an Isma'ili to a Gnostic and
turn into a raving Catholic fundamentalist? If not, carry on.
Qis...@aol.com (QisQos) wrote in message news:<29a4262b.04010...@posting.google.com>...
John R MacLeod
> conceived in the womb of Mary Immaculate, was born, was crucified for
> our sins, died and was buried. He resurrected from the dead and
> ascended into heaven, from which he will return to judge the living
> and the dead. At the judgement, those who are dead will be resurrected
> in the flesh to receive with those living the judgement as dispensed
> by the second person of the Holy Trinity, the very same Jesus Christ
> who was born in Bethlehem some 2000 years ago.
>
> That is the only reality that matters .
If you want me to take these slogans seriously you'll have to explain what
you think they actually mean. You still haven't commented on my remark that
I don't know what 'acended into heaven' means. I know it only as a
euphemism for 'die' which in this context doesn't seem to make sense. by
'ascended' do you mean went upwards - i.e further from the centre of the
Earth? And do you think that there is a locality 'heaven' somewhere for Him
to ascend into? In an earlier post you said it was 'not merely
figuratively' and also 'and this very flesh ascended to heaven'. Do you
seriously believe that the fleshly body of Jesus went up into the Sky to a
place called Heaven? If not, what do you believe?
I've also never understood the phrase 'crucified for our sins'?
I'm also seriously interested in the phrase 'consubstantial with the
father'? Does this mean you think God has substance? If so what kind of
substance?
You say these phrases represent reality. At the moment I can't agree or
disagree with you because they don't seem to carry meaning.
Susan Maneck
It was during the period of time in which Catholicism dominated the West.
> Too many Islamic countries treat their Christian minorities as
>second-class citizens, barring church building, while Western states
>let their Muslims build mosques freely,
<snip>
> Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran, who recently retired as the Vatican's
>foreign minister, told the French Catholic daily La Croix this week
Gee, and he said nothing about the French policy of expelling Muslim girls from
school for wearing head scarves?
>he singled out "the extreme
>case of Saudi Arabia, where freedom of religion is violated absolutely
>- no Christian churches and a ban on celebrating Mass, even in a
>private home.
Yes, by virtue of being the Muslim Holy Land, the Hijaz is an exception. But
how many Mosques does one find in Vatican City?
Dermod Ryder
> Yes, by virtue of being the Muslim Holy Land, the Hijaz is an exception.
But
> how many Mosques does one find in Vatican City?
Actually it's a pretty small state with limited opportunities for new build
projects. I don't think it bans Muslim observances within its jurisdiction.
Of course, as an example of the great and abiding tolerance that permeates
Bahai, I understand that the Grumpies have made provision to build a mosque,
a synagogue, a cathedral and a genuine Irish pub alongside and as an
integral part of the ARC. Now I'll drink to that - all shades of worship
catered for in the new world order!
Dermod Ryder
"Sufi Babi" <sufi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:84cea5be.04010...@posting.google.com...
> QisQos,
>
> Claudia Starr Saffa once told me that you are Harry Ali Duran, aka
> Coraxo. If so when did you go from being an Isma'ili to a Gnostic and
> turn into a raving Catholic fundamentalist? If not, carry on.
Round about the same time it took for a certain former friend to turn from
being a most warm and entertaining atheist ex-BIGS into an embittered
Bayani. It must be something in the water.....!
Susan Maneck
>Round about the same time it took for a certain former friend to turn from
>being a most warm and entertaining atheist ex-BIGS into an embittered
>Bayani. It must be something in the water.....!
Qis Qos isn't Harry. Harry's Christian SN is Corax and he has posted at the
same time as Qis Qos. Harry is a gnostic, not a pre-Vatican II Catholic. He's
passionate but no mindless fanatic. In fact, I miss him. Has anyone seen him
lately?
Susan Maneck
>Bahai, I understand that the Grumpies have made provision to build a mosque,
>a synagogue, a cathedral and a genuine Irish pub alongside and as an
>integral part of the ARC.
You'll have to go to the International Theosophical Center in Madras for those
things. Didn't see the pub, though. On the other hand, you won't get Mad Cow
Disease either.
Randy Burns
BTW did you know that Robert Graves, the poet, rose from the dead after 24
hours? It happened at the front during WWI.
Cheers, Randy
--
"John R MacLeod" <jrma...@consultant.com> wrote in message
news:bt83m8$49mg7$1...@ID-73584.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "QisQos" <Qis...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >
>>
John R MacLeod
"Randy Burns" <randy....@gte.net> wrote in message
news:uIZJb.48114$E17....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> BTW did you know that Robert Graves, the poet, rose from the dead after 24
> hours? It happened at the front during WWI.
In my opinion a tragedy for poetry but I guess others might disagree.
Do you me mean he was judged dead, stuck wherever they put bodies, and after
24 hours he revived and recovered?
Cal E. Rollins
QQ's maturation? Stop it. You're starting to sound like Steve and his
speciality. Besides, isn't QQ a female? We all know that ladies don't
maturate. --Cal
QisQos
>
> You say these phrases represent reality. At the moment I can't agree or
> disagree with you because they don't seem to carry meaning.
Try this one from the New Testament - the epistle for today, the Feast
of the Holy Name of Jesus:
EPISTLE Acts 4. 8-12
Lesson from the Acts of the Apostles.
In those days, Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said to them: Ye
princes of
the people and ancients, hear: if we this day are examined concerning
the
good deed done to the infirm man by
what means he hath been made whole, be it known to you all, and to
all the
people of Israel: that by the Name
of our Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom your crucified, whom God
hath
raised from the dead, even by Him
this man standeth here before you whole. This is the stone which was
rejected by you the builders, which is
become the head of the corner: neither is there salvation in any
other.
For there is no other name under
heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved.
********************************************************
QisQos adds: this is pretty definitive, NO other name, be it Mahomet,
Baha Allah or Bab can save you from the perdition to which you are
condemned by virtue of the shared Fall of man through the disobedience
of Adam, and your own disobedience in actuality.
There is no "progressive revelation" , no "manifestations", no
mazharullahs, nothing which can save other than the sacrifice of Jesus
Christ and His atonement for the sin of the world.
The pseudoscience world of the bahaists after the fashion of Abdul
Baha, with its pretence to natural laws denies the reality of the
supernatural effects of the salvation of humanity wrought through the
very Incarnation of Christ Jesus - God made man, His death and
resurrection and ascension, all attested to in the Gospels, and all
denied by the authors of bahaism.
That is the core of Christian faith, the belief, absurd to the world,
that Christ was True God, Incarnate, Divine and Human, Crucified,
Died, Buried, Resurrected and Ascended. And these facts of the
Christian Gospel are in complete opposition to the quite dead and
buried false prophets, Bab, Baha Allah and Mahomet.
Cal E. Rollins
I can see all those other houses of worship modified into the classic
style to meet the design and building requirements for the ARC. But a
genuine Irish pub escapes me. I frequently hurry past the one a few
blocks from me. However, since your concept, I keep having these
visions of Vestal Irish Virgins flitting in and out of the pub,
drunkenly tumbling down the steps in gossamer variously arranged and
revealing, while Irish slave boys (black, of course) and their masters
fist fighting and making mayhem in the gardens and knocking over the
fountains and throwing warm pints over pilgrims and seekers of justice.
I may be mixing images and stereotypes as I love to do, but I like your
idea of a little levity on the Mountain. Sounds like a lot more fun and
less unnerving than the Greatest Name broadcast 48 hours a day non-stop.
--Cal
QisQos
best thing for you to do would be to refer to a reliable source of
information about Catholic doctrine and dogma.
Could be done at this link:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/
type in the words you are curious about in the search field and see
what you are referred to.
Regarding substance: the Catholic Church uses the Thomistic
definitions as derived via Aristotelian method - you can look these up
in the Summa:
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/
Here is a little example about The Ascension you may refer to:
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/405700.htm
My prayers for your soul and good luck hunting for the explanations to
your questions.
"John R MacLeod" <jrma...@consultant.com> wrote in message news:<bt83m8$49mg7$1@ID-
Dermod Ryder
> >Of course, as an example of the great and abiding tolerance that
permeates
> >Bahai, I understand that the Grumpies have made provision to build a
mosque,
> >a synagogue, a cathedral and a genuine Irish pub alongside and as an
> >integral part of the ARC.
>
> You'll have to go to the International Theosophical Center in Madras for
those
> things. Didn't see the pub, though. On the other hand, you won't get Mad
Cow
> Disease either.
I won't get Mad Cow Disease at all. As the name suggests, it only affects
women cows.
Dermod Ryder
Are we referring to Robert Graves the author of "I Claudius"?
What a philistine you are, John! Tut tut!
>
>
Dermod Ryder
> >
> >Round about the same time it took for a certain former friend to turn
from
> >being a most warm and entertaining atheist ex-BIGS into an embittered
> >Bayani. It must be something in the water.....!
>
> Qis Qos isn't Harry. Harry's Christian SN is Corax and he has posted at
the
> same time as Qis Qos. Harry is a gnostic, not a pre-Vatican II Catholic.
He's
> passionate but no mindless fanatic. In fact, I miss him. Has anyone seen
him
> lately?
There really are times that you don't get the plot.
John R MacLeod
on about.
I'm afraid we'll have to differ for the time being - my mind/soul won't
talke seriously this version of world history.
"QisQos" <Qis...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:29a4262b.04010...@posting.google.com...
> "John R MacLeod" <jrma...@consultant.com> wrote in message
news:<bt83m8$49mg7$1@ID-
<snip>
John R MacLeod
to differ. I've been over this stuff with Catholics before and, for me
the end product is that you guys don't know what it means either:
For example, from the web-site you recommended:
"To say that He was taken up or that He ascended, does not necessarily imply
that they locate heaven directly above the earth; no more than the words
"sitteth on the right hand of God" mean that this is His actual posture. In
disappearing from their view "He was raised up and a cloud received Him out
of their sight" (Acts 1:9), and entering into glory He dwells with the
Father in the honour and power denoted by the scripture phrase. "
Telling me what something does not mean is not the same as telling me what
it does mean. As far as I can see what it boils down to is a belief that at
some historical moment a man, known as Jesus, whom many (including me)
believe was something more than a man, mysteriously rose in the air and
vanished into the clouds. I'm not going to dispute it but I'm not going to
trust the account either, My overall reaction is really "So what?"
Still, I understand that some people find it best to deal with the eternal
mysteries in other ways from me and in all seriousness I wish you well with
this style of religion. To me it just sounds like the 'new age' stuff of an
earlier age, but I can well believe that for different eyes the glory of God
shines from it.
"QisQos" <Qis...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:29a4262b.04010...@posting.google.com...
> If you are really interested in the answers to your questions, the
> best thing for you to do would be to refer to a reliable source of
> information about Catholic doctrine and dogma.
>
> Could be done at this link:
>
> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/
>
> type in the words you are curious about in the search field and see
> what you are referred to.
>
> Regarding substance: the Catholic Church uses the Thomistic
> definitions as derived via Aristotelian method - you can look these up
> in the Summa:
>
> http://www.newadvent.org/summa/
>
> Here is a little example about The Ascension you may refer to:
>
> http://www.newadvent.org/summa/405700.htm
>
> My prayers for your soul and good luck hunting for the explanations to
> your questions.
>
> QQ
>
> "John R MacLeod" <jrma...@consultant.com> wrote in message
news:<bt83m8$49mg7$1@ID-
> > If you want me to take these slogans seriously you'll have to explain
what
> > you think they actually mean. You still haven't commented on my remark
that
> > I don't know what 'ascended into heaven' means. I know it only as a
John R MacLeod
"Dermod Ryder" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:bta2sp$4vumn$1...@ID-84503.news.uni-berlin.de...
>>
> Are we referring to Robert Graves the author of "I Claudius"?
>
> What a philistine you are, John! Tut tut!
Same fellow I believe. though that's a novel of course. Dig out some of his
poetry on the net and see if you don't agree with me.
Or, if you are interested in a stunning demonstration of just how bad a
published book can be, try his 'Greek Myths" which the Folio Society try to
give away as an incentive to join.
Sufi Babi
> "Sufi Babi" <sufi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:84cea5be.04010...@posting.google.com...
> > QisQos,
> >
> > Claudia Starr Saffa once told me that you are Harry Ali Duran, aka
> > Coraxo. If so when did you go from being an Isma'ili to a Gnostic and
> > turn into a raving Catholic fundamentalist? If not, carry on.
>
> Round about the same time it took for a certain former friend to turn from
> being a most warm and entertaining atheist ex-BIGS into an embittered
> Bayani.
Shows how much you listen. I never claimed to be an atheist but an
agnostic. But was that around the same time when you lost your own
nerve and went crying to the Belfast LSA because big bad George
Flemming called you a welfare cheat?
>It must be something in the water.....!
Better embitteredness than the kind of fickle spinelss woosiness
you've shown in the past 18 months. Hell you've even begun kissing
Susan Maniac's ring right here in public. What happened, did Mrs
Reaper finally lay down the law and tell you to fall in line or else?
Talk about spineless!
Sufi Babi
> >
> >Round about the same time it took for a certain former friend to turn from
> >being a most warm and entertaining atheist ex-BIGS into an embittered
> >Bayani. It must be something in the water.....!
>
> Qis Qos isn't Harry. Harry's Christian SN is Corax and he has posted at the
> same time as Qis Qos. Harry is a gnostic, not a pre-Vatican II Catholic. He's
> passionate but no mindless fanatic.
You would be surprised.
>In fact, I miss him.
You would miss him. You two are like peas and carrots made for each
other. Harry is Tolkien's golem character Smeegle running after his
"preshusss" while you are his she-male consort.
>Has anyone seen him
> lately?
I heard he had another psychotic episode and had to be institionalized
yet again - seriously. That's what happens when he thinks he can match
psychic wits with a Master such as I. I put a Hex on his sorry butt.
Susan Maneck
>If you are really interested in the answers to your questions, the
>best thing for you to do would be to refer to a reliable source of
>information about Catholic doctrine and dogma.
>
>Could be done at this link:
>
>http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/
An Encyclopedia dated 1908 with loads of mistakes.
Susan Maneck
>I won't get Mad Cow Disease at all. As the name suggests, it only affects
>women cows.
Sorry, my mistake. Your brain is already mush. ;-}
QisQos
> Still, I understand that some people find it best to deal with the eternal
> mysteries in other ways from me and in all seriousness I wish you well with
> this style of religion.
And all the best to you as well - my prayers for you and yours.
QQ
Randy Burns
Cheers, Randy
--
"Susan Maneck " <sma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040104203138...@mb-m12.aol.com...
Pat Kohli
Sufi Babi wrote:
> sma...@aol.com (Susan Maneck ) wrote in message news:<20040104121540...@mb-m07.aol.com>...
> > >
> > >Round about the same time it took for a certain former friend to turn from
> > >being a most warm and entertaining atheist ex-BIGS into an embittered
> > >Bayani. It must be something in the water.....!
> >
> > Qis Qos isn't Harry. Harry's Christian SN is Corax and he has posted at the
> > same time as Qis Qos. Harry is a gnostic, not a pre-Vatican II Catholic. He's
> > passionate but no mindless fanatic.
>
> You would be surprised.
>
Perhaps she will be surprised. I don't know if the QQ is a sincere picture of the person's current
beliefs, or the projection of what an ultra-Montanist, Ibero-American might seem like. I think Harry was
always very good at discussing with adovcating for his personal beliefs.
>
> >In fact, I miss him.
>
> You would miss him. You two are like peas and carrots made for each
> other. Harry is Tolkien's golem character Smeegle running after his
> "preshusss" while you are his she-male consort.
>
> >Has anyone seen him
> > lately?
>
> I heard he had another psychotic episode and had to be institionalized
> yet again - seriously. That's what happens when he thinks he can match
> psychic wits with a Master such as I. I put a Hex on his sorry butt.
I suppose this is proof there is a God. My prior attempts to killfile you were miraculously foiled just so
I could read the funniest boast of the year.
BTW, here is what raised my suspicion about QQ.
From: Qis...@aol.com (QisQos)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai
Subject: Re: On Culhane from the Friend
Date: 30 Nov 2002 19:04:56 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com/
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <29a4262b.02113...@posting.google.com>
References: <newscache$xhid6h$e3f$1...@elise.onthenet.com.au>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.162.204.168
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=29a4262b.0211301904.3f424837%40posting.google.com&output=gplain
User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022
Subject: Re: Tablet to Cal Rollins
From: Corax <cor...@elp.rr.com>
Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai
Message-ID: <BA0CE606.11FAF%cor...@elp.rr.com>
References: <newscache$b1r76h$b18$1...@elise.onthenet.com.au>
<c977f97b.02112...@posting.google.com> <newscache$pw696h$0j9$1...@elise.onthenet.com.au>
<c977f97b.02112...@posting.google.com> <3DE623D2...@ameritel.net>
<uucank2...@corp.supernews.com> <BA0B97C1.11E20%cor...@elp.rr.com> <uucj3ua...@corp.supernews.com>
<c977f97b.021...@posting.google.com> <uuf396r...@corp.supernews.com>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary"MS Mac OE 3121407495 3407075 MIME Part"
Lines: 81
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 16:38:16 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.162.204.168
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=BA0CE606.11FAF%25coraxo%40elp.rr.com&output=gplain
Note the matching IP addresses: 24.162.204.168
Has Starr been peeking at headers, too? Oh my!
- Pat
kohli at ameritel.net
Randy Burns
time tracking down the two volume sets published by Penguin because they
like the book so much.
He is probably best known for writing The White Goddess.
Randy
--
"John R MacLeod" <jrma...@consultant.com> wrote in message
news:bta6u6$4tm4k$1...@ID-73584.news.uni-berlin.de...
Randy Burns
pronounced him dead. He was then left on a stretcher in an area filled with
other dead soldiers. His death was announced in the papers in London the
next day and his family was notified. But sometime about 12-24 hours later
an orderly walking past heard him cough and a physician was called.
Randy
--
"John R MacLeod" <jrma...@consultant.com> wrote in message
news:bt9q14$4tg7l$1...@ID-73584.news.uni-berlin.de...
Pat Kohli
Dermod Ryder wrote:
That's not the point. Q wants to quote some cleric waving his finger that the
Muslims are not as tolerant as the Catholics because the Muslim countries don't
find room for new Catholic churches. How much room is in Djibouti, anyway?
Susan Maneck
On 2001-03-29 Nima wrote:
"I am no Baha'i, thank God, just a God-fearing atheist"
Susan Maneck
>It's perfect if your question is : "How can I return to the Middle Ages?"
That much may be true.
Corax, I'm going to be *very* dissappointed if you really are QisQos.
Pat Kohli
Susan Maneck wrote:
> > I never claimed to be an atheist
>
> On 2001-03-29 Nima wrote:
>
> "I am no Baha'i, thank God, just a God-fearing atheist"
>
It's a joke. That he fears God implies that he is not an atheist. The
statement really doesn't say whether he does or does not believe in God,
since it seems to say both.
Best wishes!
Freethought110
> > I never claimed to be an atheist
>
> On 2001-03-29 Nima wrote:
>
> "I am no Baha'i, thank God, just a God-fearing atheist"
Eh, I know you lack imagination in pretty much every department, but
God-fearing-atheist is the quintessential definition of an agnostic.
Brid
> Brid,
>
> Now you're talking! Maybe His Holiness will be the last Pope so many
> Baha'is used to talk about, and he'll do for the Faith what Constantine
> did for the Church? What job do you think he'll have in the
> Administration? Could he be appointed Honorary King of the World, or
> what? --Cal
Cal,
It could be just a ploy by the Pope to get the Baha'is to remove the
Anti-Christ rogues gallery of his predecessors you heard about on
pilgrimage. Mind you, if His Holiness did visit Haifa he would
probably feel quite at home - the marble buildings, the bureaucracy,
the infallible leadership (with no women!)-all that sort of thing
would be quite congenial. Tell me more about the last Pope that
Baha'is used to talk about, I haven't come across that one.
Brid
QisQos
> An Encyclopedia dated 1908 with loads of mistakes.
>
> http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
> Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
> http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st
Mistakes regarding...?
Either way, the simple point is this:
Baha Allah is NOT the fulfillment of Christian prophecy, nor are his
claims to a messianic station validated by any Christian scripture.
The distortions he and his apologists have applied to make it appear
that Baha Allah is in some way the promised return of Christ are
falsifications designed to deceive those whose knowledge of scripture
and Christian doctrine are weak and which have been weakened by the
centuries of distortions coming from the millenarist doctrines of
evangelical protestantism.
One whose knowledge of Catholic dogma and doctrine is sound cannot be
deceived by the specious argumentations and symbolical distortions put
forth by Baha Allah in the Kitab i Iqan and other texts, nor can they
be deceived by the errors put forth by his son, Abdul Baha, and
subsequent apologists for bahaism.
Those however who are looking here and there for the "end times" are
fair game for the scriptural distortions and claims used by bahai
propagandists to make their case seem plausible regarding the return
of Jesus Christ. As appears to be the case, dispensationalists
especially are prone to being deceived, as are Mormons, and Jehovah's
Witnesses.
At the center of the difference between bahaism and the Catholic faith
is the basic stumbling block of The Incarnation.
God, three persons in one, incarnated as the second person of the
Trinity in the person of Jesus Christ.
Baha Allah and mahomet both deny this possibility and claim that God
can in no way enter creation, because to do do would limit His own
might: yet Jesus Christ did just that, as we Catholics say in the
Credo "true God from true God...." and in His humiliations as a man
exercised the fullest power of His might to deliver us from the
bondage of sin and death.
It is not for Mahomet or Baha Allah to limit God in His doings.
Tomorrow is the Feast of the Epiphany which is celebrated in honor of
the homage paid by the pagan Magi to the Infant King. These 'wise
men", philosophers and scientists they may have been, were not too
proud in their knowledge to despise the Incarnation of God as the
promised Messiah born to a humble Virgin in a manger in Bethlehem.
They brought gifts knowing that this Infant, God Incarnate, defied all
the sciences of which they were so erudite. May we likewise humble
ourselves in the realization of the Humility of God who took on the
person of an Infant, helpless and weak and in the care of His Mother,
that we too may place ourselves under Her maternal protection.
This concludes my series of messages for Christmastide. Until Ash
Wednesday..........
Susan Maneck
>Tomorrow is the Feast of the Epiphany which is celebrated in honor of
>the homage paid by the pagan Magi to the Infant King. These 'wise
>men", philosophers and scientists they may have been,
Try Zoroastrian priests.
>were not too
>proud in their knowledge to despise the Incarnation of God as the
>promised Messiah born to a humble Virgin in a manger in Bethlehem.
Sayoshants were supposed to be born of virgins, but the seed they were
miraculously implanted with was of Zoroaster not God.
Susan Maneck
>It could be just a ploy by the Pope to get the Baha'is to remove the
>Anti-Christ rogues gallery of his predecessors you heard about on
>pilgrimage.
You mean the gallery that is heard but not seen?
>Tell me more about the last Pope that
>Baha'is used to talk about, I haven't come across that one.
I'd be satisfied if the next one were a Pope John XXIV myself. If its Pope John
Paul III expect more of the same. If it's a Pope Pious turn back the clock, its
midnight savings time.
warmest, Susan
Randy Burns
Fatima visions discussion which we have already had.
Cheers, Randy
--
"Brid" <bridci...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d5a5c190.0401...@posting.google.com...
Dermod Ryder
> >
> >I won't get Mad Cow Disease at all. As the name suggests, it only
affects
> >women cows.
>
> Sorry, my mistake. Your brain is already mush. ;-}
All too true! But it's still better than yours!
Dermod Ryder
>
> "Dermod Ryder" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:bta2sp$4vumn$1...@ID-84503.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >>
> > Are we referring to Robert Graves the author of "I Claudius"?
> >
> > What a philistine you are, John! Tut tut!
>
> Same fellow I believe. though that's a novel of course. Dig out some of
his
> poetry on the net and see if you don't agree with me.
No fear! I detest poetry - enforced appreciation of Wordsworth for two
years at school achieved that laudable end.
> Or, if you are interested in a stunning demonstration of just how bad a
> published book can be, try his 'Greek Myths" which the Folio Society try
to
> give away as an incentive to join.
That particular book, though not that edition, given to me many moons ago,
remained as an unread filler on the bookshelves for a few years but
disappeared eventually to make room for more appealing works.
"I Claudius" is a different case (the sequel "Claudius the God" is not as
good) - it has an honoured space amidst my extremely small "fiction"
section.
Dermod Ryder
> agnostic. But was that around the same time when you lost your own
> nerve and went crying to the Belfast LSA because big bad George
> Flemming called you a welfare cheat?
Now what was it he called you at that time ........?????
> >It must be something in the water.....!
>
> Better embitteredness than the kind of fickle spinelss woosiness
> you've shown in the past 18 months. Hell you've even begun kissing
> Susan Maniac's ring right here in public.
I haven't changed ......
> What happened, did Mrs
> Reaper finally lay down the law and tell you to fall in line or else?
The law that Splashie thought she should have laid down years ago to avoid
my troubling all those wee BIGS in Norn Iren?
> Talk about spineless!
Talk about stupid! Splasher ... that is ... of course!
Dermod Ryder
"Freethought110" <freetho...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:83b59396.04010...@posting.google.com...
And another of my lines that you've nicked!
Adelard
At least the coming of Baha'u'llah coincides with the advancement of
science. We have made some progress of conquering space, and we know
there is not such a physical heaven. When Baha'u'llah said that he
came from heaven, we understood that it's a spiritual heaven. But two
thousands ago, it was not the case. I believe Jesus Christ had a hard
time convincing people with Quiscos's mindset. For sure, Quiscos could
not have passed the test if he could have been living in Jesus's time
and being confronted to believe that Elijah is John Baptist to come.
In the Old Testament, Elijah ascended to heaven, and Israelis people
were waiting from him to come from heaven, but that didn't happen.
So, Quiscos is like the return of the Pharisees and currently, we are
witnessing alive how Jesus had to deal with those people of his time
and we can get a good perspective of how strong the first disciples of
Jesus' spiritual insight and spirit of discernment were. For sure,
they had a kind of Baha'i Thinking because they could understand all
those parables of return of Elijah easily.
In this time, if Robert and Quiscos don't recognize Baha'u'llah in
this day, they would have to know that they are applying the same
nonsense beliefs on judging Baha'u'llah, that the Pharisees used to
deny Jesus.
But what I know is that there is not more excuse in this day as
Baha'u'llah said. It's not like 2000 years ago, as we have all kind of
knowledge in our fingertips.
Here below, the beloved Hand of the Cause, William Sears talks little
bit about the Pope and the return of Baha'u'llah
http://bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/pk14.htm
Peace,
Adelard
Cal E. Rollins
I used to feel like you seem to about the burgeoning of science in this
New Age of Enlightenment. When I heard almost 50 years ago that if
religion did not agree with science it was wrong, I soared for living in
the Day which would not be followed by night. Now we are saying that if
science doesn't agree with our religion science is wrong. And we need
to examine the science, determine if it is real or imaginery, if
supported by unimpeachable documentation and the highest of social
motives. In regard to science and the Faith, I'm whistling in the
twilight. From wince comes your optimism? --Cal
Cal E. Rollins
Father Divine told my grandmother that if she wanted to believe he was
God that was okay. Don't we sort of believe that, too? If Zoroaster
planted his seed or whatever, would it be the same as God doing it?
"Created by the Light of Zoroaster...," for example? --Cal
Cal E. Rollins
I don't know the Nostradamus "Last Pope" story. But it was going around
at Geyserville and LouHelen when I was a kid that the last Pope would
declare for Baha'u'llah. So far we haven't had a last Pope. If we do
and he doesn't declare I guess we could consider the story
Kitabi-Hearsay sans any sites in the Writings. I'm inclined to say we
should hold our collective breaths until it happens. --Cal
Cal E. Rollins
I wish I knew who the last Pope was to, but, alas... That's why I
wished I had been able to snoop around the other rooms in Bahji just to
see the alleged portraits of the Popes. But now that I think on it,
unless the Guardian had the kind of prescience that could hang portraits
of the Popes until the last one, my nose for news would have led to
useless reportage. Right?
Hearsay from ones youth dies hard, however. When the present Pope had an
attempt on his life, my heart fluttered from memory of what I'd heard as
a kid. But he, thank Allah, seems to be belying any Kitabi-Hearsay.
--Cal
Cal E. Rollins
I don't think Paul was a joke at all. How many Baha'is do you know who
really believe in Allah? --Cal
Cal E. Rollins
Folks along the American West Coast are just glad that Mad Cow disease
only affects cows of whatever gender. Once it mutates to pigs, TRB is
going to be decimated. Well, let's not give any of the conservative
Baha'i microbiologists any ideas... --Cal
Dermod Ryder
"Cal E. Rollins" <crol...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:14582-3FF...@storefull-2333.public.lawson.webtv.net...
I understand that a similar or derivative condition has been found in sheep.
Expect that to hit hard amongst the community of faithful followers bleating
obedience to Grumpie shepherds.
Dermod Ryder
"Pat Kohli" <kohliCUT...@ameritel.net> wrote in message
news:3FF8DC87...@ameritel.net...
Surely enough for a church or two?
>
Dermod Ryder
> Dermod,
>
> I can see all those other houses of worship modified into the classic
> style to meet the design and building requirements for the ARC. But a
> genuine Irish pub escapes me. I frequently hurry past the one a few
> blocks from me.
Atr there pigs in the parlour? If not,'tis not a genuine Irish pub.
>However, since your concept, I keep having these
> visions of Vestal Irish Virgins flitting in and out of the pub,
> drunkenly tumbling down the steps in gossamer variously arranged and
> revealing,
Don't we all but, at your age, would you remember what to do with them to
change their unhappy condition?
> while Irish slave boys (black, of course)
No, no, no! All green - various shades but all essentially green!
> and their masters
> fist fighting and making mayhem in the gardens and knocking over the
> fountains and throwing warm pints over pilgrims and seekers of justice.
Was that what Michael Son of Kenny was doing when he got the heave -ho from
the bouncers?
> I may be mixing images and stereotypes as I love to do,
Not just love to but actually do.
> but I like your
> idea of a little levity on the Mountain.
The Grumpies don't!
> Sounds like a lot more fun and
> less unnerving than the Greatest Name broadcast 48 hours a day non-stop.
> --Cal
It sure is!
>
Dermod Ryder
"Adelard" <themostg...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dfdf12c8.04010...@posting.google.com...
> Hi All,
>
> At least the coming of Baha'u'llah coincides with the advancement of
> science.
Which went hand in hand with the decline of religion. I wonder if there's
any connection.
>We have made some progress of conquering space, and we know
> there is not such a physical heaven. When Baha'u'llah said that he
> came from heaven, we understood that it's a spiritual heaven. But two
> thousands ago, it was not the case.
Yup! It took engineering to show that heaven wasn't sited on the rear end
of the Moon.
Gimme dat old time religion!
I wonder what science the Grumpies will attempt to destroy in the future
.... apart from independent investigation, which went overboard long ago.
Paul Hammond
Pat Kohli
Dermod Ryder
> > Surely enough for a church or two?
> > >
>
> I found one.
> http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/diocese/ddjib.html
Splendid news. There's hope for Saudi Arabia yet!
Freethought110
YOUR line! God-fearing-atheist I gave to you!!
Dermod Ryder
"Freethought110" <freetho...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:83b59396.04010...@posting.google.com...
> "Dermod Ryder" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:<bte5op$6afli$1...@ID-84503.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> > "Freethought110" <freetho...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:83b59396.04010...@posting.google.com...
> > > sma...@aol.com (Susan Maneck ) wrote in message
> > news:<20040104223516...@mb-m12.aol.com>...
> > > > > I never claimed to be an atheist
> > > >
> > > > On 2001-03-29 Nima wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "I am no Baha'i, thank God, just a God-fearing atheist"
> > >
> > > Eh, I know you lack imagination in pretty much every department, but
> > > God-fearing-atheist is the quintessential definition of an agnostic.
> >
> > And another of my lines that you've nicked!
>
> YOUR line! God-fearing-atheist I gave to you!!
Me arse! You nicked it off me when I founded the Church of the Self-same!
Paul Hammond
Unlikely.
Face it, Nima. You're just not very funny.
Cal E. Rollins
Is this the Son of Kenny Susan was talking about a while back when she
reported that some Baha'i was over raping folk on the Mountain? She
didn't say they were knocking over the fountains and trashing out the
terraces, too. No wonder the Irish don't get to go on pilgrimage in any
appreciable numbers! Too much cultural act-out. And no small wonder we
Americans are praised for our solemnity and respect for things sacred!
--Cal
Cal E. Rollins
Well the sheep can all get it, because we know sex outside of
heterosexual human marriage is forbidden anyway. So Mad Cow visited
upon a sheep-consorting Baha'i would be Allah's justice. Allah works
mysteriously, wonderously, and slowly. Then PLOP! Over they'll go with
Mad Sheep. But that's wishful thinking, since you're not suppose to get
that particular disease from romanticizing a sheep. --Cal
Cal E. Rollins
Ooops! I meant "Paul's was a joke." I won't apologize for a Freudian
slip, since the cat was already out of the bag. Plus, I couldn't speak
for Pat's inner thoughts, anyway. Especially since he seldom speaks such
for himself. Although, I was surprised when he created a stir a while
back on how he felt about some of the Guardian's concepts. --Cal
Brid
> Brid,
>
> I wish I knew who the last Pope was to, but, alas... That's why I
> wished I had been able to snoop around the other rooms in Bahji just to
> see the alleged portraits of the Popes. But now that I think on it,
> unless the Guardian had the kind of prescience that could hang portraits
> of the Popes until the last one, my nose for news would have led to
> useless reportage. Right?
Cal,
This idea of the last Pope going to declare for Baha'u'llah sounds
very much in keeping with the whole Baha'i mythological construct. But
the idea of the Papacy's line of succession being a finite thing is
reflected in the Irish medieval prophecies of St Malachy. They've been
dusted off for a whole new audience too in recent years, part of the
Holy Blood/Holy Grail/Templars/Turin Shroud/Nostradamus phenomenon.
>
> Hearsay from ones youth dies hard, however. When the present Pope had an
> attempt on his life, my heart fluttered from memory of what I'd heard as
> a kid. But he, thank Allah, seems to be belying any Kitabi-Hearsay.
> --Cal
I am interested in why this Baha'i lore centred on the Papacy was so
current in your youth, was it connected with the election of a new
Pope? Well, according to those who 'interpret' St Malachy, there are
only two more Popes to follow the present one and after that all bets
are off. The assassination attempt on Pope John Paul was tied up with
the third secret of Fatima as it contained a vision of a 'Bishop
dressed in white' being shot down. The vision, however, spoke of this
Bishop being gunned down by a 'group of soldiers' rather than by a
lone Turkish gunman, but that's always been my trouble, I just can't
resist spoiling a good story.
Brid
Dermod Ryder
> Dermod,
>
> Is this the Son of Kenny Susan was talking about a while back when she
> reported that some Baha'i was over raping folk on the Mountain?
Would that be literal or metaphorical "raping?" Although the answer isn't
important as I doubt Michael McKenny would be interested in either (Mc or
Mac = "Son of")
> She
> didn't say they were knocking over the fountains and trashing out the
> terraces, too.
She wouldn't know - we always manage to blame somebody else ... especially
the English.
> No wonder the Irish don't get to go on pilgrimage in any
> appreciable numbers! Too much cultural act-out.
That's not the reason. When you divorced the blest Guinness and Bushmills
from the religion, you lost any chance of awakening Irish interest in it.
That's why most of the Bahai community here is composed of foreign blow-ins.
> And no small wonder we
> Americans are praised for our solemnity and respect for things sacred!
Is that what you call it? We know it as American obsequiousness and
gullibility. Now who, in their right mind, apart from Americans, would
believe that kissing the Blarney stone would give them the gift of the gab?
And who, apart from the Irish, could sell them that lie? Just about
everybody?
> --Cal
>
Adelard
Sorry for the delay, I was away from my computer.
"Adelard" <themostg...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dfdf12c8.04010...@posting.google.com...
> Hi All,
>
> At least the coming of Baha'u'llah coincides with the advancement of
> science.
<<
Which went hand in hand with the decline of religion. I wonder if
there's
any connection.
>>
Yep, there is a connection, in my opinion. Once, people become
disatisfied with the old established religions like Christianity or
Islam, that will be a way of them becoming curious of learning new
spiritual paths like the Baha'i Faith, they have never heard before.
>We have made some progress of conquering space, and we know
> there is not such a physical heaven. When Baha'u'llah said that he
> came from heaven, we understood that it's a spiritual heaven. But two
> thousands ago, it was not the case.
<
Yup! It took engineering to show that heaven wasn't sited on the rear
end
of the Moon.
>
Who is behind of that enginnering, Dermod. Is it not God? Is it not
said that when the Promised one comes, there will be a lot of
knowledge, according to Scriptures of the Past. Baha'u'llah affirms
and acknowledges about it too in his Revelation and even the history
of progress of science for the past two century testifies of the Age
of the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.
<snip>
Peace,
Adelard
Dermod Ryder
> Dear Dermod,
>
> Sorry for the delay, I was away from my computer.
>
> "Adelard" <themostg...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:dfdf12c8.04010...@posting.google.com...
> > Hi All,
> >
> > At least the coming of Baha'u'llah coincides with the advancement of
> > science.
>
> <<
> Which went hand in hand with the decline of religion. I wonder if
> there's
> any connection.
> >>
>
> Yep, there is a connection, in my opinion. Once, people become
> disatisfied with the old established religions like Christianity or
> Islam, that will be a way of them becoming curious of learning new
> spiritual paths like the Baha'i Faith, they have never heard before.
The connection I referred to was the decline in religion linked to the
growth in science. I see no sign that people, though disinterested in the
old religions, are turning to Bahai.
> >We have made some progress of conquering space, and we know
> > there is not such a physical heaven. When Baha'u'llah said that he
> > came from heaven, we understood that it's a spiritual heaven. But two
> > thousands ago, it was not the case.
> <
> Yup! It took engineering to show that heaven wasn't sited on the rear
> end
> of the Moon.
> >
>
> Who is behind of that enginnering, Dermod. Is it not God?
I thought it was guys with sliderules and spanners.
> Is it not
> said that when the Promised one comes, there will be a lot of
> knowledge, according to Scriptures of the Past.
I don't know - you tell me where all this is.
> Baha'u'llah affirms
> and acknowledges about it too in his Revelation and even the history
> of progress of science for the past two century testifies of the Age
> of the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.
No it doesn't!
>
>
> <snip>
>
> Peace,
> Adelard
Brid
> "Adelard" <themostg...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:dfdf12c8.04011...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > disatisfied with the old established religions like Christianity or
> > Islam, that will be a way of them becoming curious of learning new
> > spiritual paths like the Baha'i Faith, they have never heard before.
>
> The connection I referred to was the decline in religion linked to the
> growth in science. I see no sign that people, though disinterested in the
> old religions, are turning to Bahai.
>
Certainly not here in Ireland! I was at an all-Ireland Baha'i
gathering a few years ago which coincided with the visit of the relics
of St Therese of Liseux to this benighted isle. A very middle-class
Baha'i of Northern Protestant extraction could not hide her distaste
for the outpouring of traditional piety which St Therese's relics had
provoked among the Catholic natives. This Baha'i was very sniffy about
the hoardes packing out churches to see 'those mouldering old bones'.
I thought to myself that if Baha'is could attract even the merest
fraction of those crowds they would be doing very well indeed.
Brid
Freethought110
> Yep, there is a connection, in my opinion. Once, people become
> disatisfied with the old established religions like Christianity or
> Islam, that will be a way of them becoming curious of learning new
> spiritual paths like the Baha'i Faith,
WRONG! Those who leave turn to a whole market-place of Eastern
religions and New Age groups, not to mention alternative paths within
those very traditions themselves you mention such as Eastern Orthodox
or Gnostic Christianity or Sufism or Kabbalah. Why the f&%# should
they turn to a sick Amway cult like Baha'ism that has nothing to offer
those people whatsoever. Besides many people out there have already
heard of you and they are not impressed. But go on living in your
delusions if it makes you feel better.
Dermod Ryder
"Brid" <bridci...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d5a5c190.0401...@posting.google.com...
> Certainly not here in Ireland! I was at an all-Ireland Baha'i
> gathering a few years ago which coincided with the visit of the relics
> of St Therese of Liseux to this benighted isle. A very middle-class
> Baha'i of Northern Protestant extraction could not hide her distaste
> for the outpouring of traditional piety which St Therese's relics had
> provoked among the Catholic natives.
Now who could that have been - that description fits quite a few candidates.
Mail me privately with the name!
> This Baha'i was very sniffy about
> the hoardes packing out churches to see 'those mouldering old bones'.
Jealousy and naught else largely due to the lack of imagination innate in
that sad community as to how to come up with some idea that could excite
interest sufficient to attract an audience to a meeting. They used to hold
public meetings ... but nobody ever came.
> I thought to myself that if Baha'is could attract even the merest
> fraction of those crowds they would be doing very well indeed.
Filling a telephone booth with seekers is a current goal of the current
plan. Hopes are high but expectations aren't!
>
> Brid
Dermod Ryder
> themostg...@yahoo.com (Adelard) wrote in message
>
> > Yep, there is a connection, in my opinion. Once, people become
> > disatisfied with the old established religions like Christianity or
> > Islam, that will be a way of them becoming curious of learning new
> > spiritual paths like the Baha'i Faith,
>
> WRONG! Those who leave turn to a whole market-place of Eastern
> religions and New Age groups, not to mention alternative paths within
> those very traditions themselves you mention such as Eastern Orthodox
> or Gnostic Christianity or Sufism or Kabbalah.
A suitable spot for a plug for the Church of the Eternally Damned and
Pleased to be so - especially designed and intended for those pissed off by
the wailings of the multitude of salvation salespeople.
> Why the f&%# should
> they turn to a sick Amway cult like Baha'ism that has nothing to offer
> those people whatsoever.
Not even cleaner laundry?
> Besides many people out there have already
> heard of you and they are not impressed. But go on living in your
> delusions if it makes you feel better.
It does!
Susan Maneck
>A suitable spot for a plug for the Church of the Eternally Damned and
>Pleased to be so
Now Dermod, Nima offered you membership in that church last year and he would
have probably made you a Letter even. But you turned him down.
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st
Dermod Ryder
> >
> >A suitable spot for a plug for the Church of the Eternally Damned and
> >Pleased to be so
>
> Now Dermod, Nima offered you membership in that church last year and he
would
> have probably made you a Letter even. But you turned him down.
Oh no - he didn't! Nima has no connection with the said Church - indeed I
only founded it recently. You may be confusing it with my earlier Church -
that of the God-Fearing Atheist. But I have moved on from there. Still
that's progressive revelation!
Susan Maneck
>only founded it recently. You may be confusing it with my earlier Church -
>that of the God-Fearing Atheist. But I have moved on from there.
Man, you change religions faster than Nima does!
>Still
>that's progressive revelation!
>
>
Sounds pretty degressive to me.
Dermod Ryder
> >Oh no - he didn't! Nima has no connection with the said Church - indeed
I
> >only founded it recently. You may be confusing it with my earlier
Church -
> >that of the God-Fearing Atheist. But I have moved on from there.
>
> Man, you change religions faster than Nima does!
But not as fast or, hopefully, as often as one changes one's underwear.
> >Still
> >that's progressive revelation!
> >
> >
>
> Sounds pretty degressive to me.
No - it's a urine grab!
Paul Hammond
Neither of which have any connection with Nima's foundation,
the Church of the Holy Nima Worshippers and Paul haters (I
got on his list twice!) which had only one god, the prophet-
founder Nima F***face Sayoshit himself.
Paul
Adelard
WRONG! Those who leave turn to a whole market-place of Eastern
religions and New Age groups, not to mention alternative paths within
those very traditions themselves you mention such as Eastern Orthodox
or Gnostic Christianity or Sufism or Kabbalah.
>>
Nima, yes, when they investigate Sufism or Buddhism and so on and
became fascinated about them, it's their turning point of beginning to
be open-minded, and later on, they can be receptive to new other
Faiths, like the Baha'i Faith.
<<
Why the f&%# should they turn to a sick Amway cult like Baha'ism that
has nothing to offer
those people whatsoever. Besides many people out there have already
heard of you and they are not impressed.
>>
Once, you understand that in this Age when the world is becoming
smaller and smaller and only a Faith which is based on teachings which
provide
a spiritual transformation to a Human-Being or humanity as whole by
changing or improving the rules or laws which govern Society, you will
understand what
the Baha'i Faith is all about.
All the Faith, you mention above, like Sufism or Kabbalah, they focus
on changing Society by mainly providing a spiritual transformation to
an individual, and that is not enough for this day.
For example, take a look on Rwanda Genocide, how could those Devoted
and very Spiritual Christians kill each other, if they are transformed
spiritually?
The response is simple: Because the rules which govern the Country of
Rwanda were corrupted, not based on Justice.
So, there is not any current philosophy or ideology or any other
religions or Babism you belong to, which can succeed to provide a
complete spiritual
transformation to Humanity if not the one brought by the Manifestation
of the Age, Baha'u'llah. He was really a true Divine Physician.
Before long, insha'allah, once his name and his healing message are
recognized, the world will become that God's Kingdom foretold in the
Holy Books of the Past.
Peace,
Adelard
Cal E. Rollins
Don't you seriously think that the Pope may be working closely with
Baha'i leadership to prepare Catholics for his announcement of
Baha'u'llah as the Return of Christ, sort of like what Constantine did
for early Christianity? Didn't the Letters of Fatima allegedly say this?
The last Pope and all... --Cal
Susan Maneck
>got on his list twice!)
Hey, you're way down on his list. I'm No. 1!
Freethought110
> <<
> WRONG! Those who leave turn to a whole market-place of Eastern
> religions and New Age groups, not to mention alternative paths within
> those very traditions themselves you mention such as Eastern Orthodox
> or Gnostic Christianity or Sufism or Kabbalah.
> >>
>
> Nima, yes, when they investigate Sufism or Buddhism and so on and
> became fascinated about them, it's their turning point of beginning to
> be open-minded, and later on, they can be receptive to new other
> Faiths, like the Baha'i Faith.
Why?
>
> <<
> Why the f&%# should they turn to a sick Amway cult like Baha'ism that
> has nothing to offer
> those people whatsoever. Besides many people out there have already
> heard of you and they are not impressed.
> >>
>
>
> Once, you understand that in this Age when the world is becoming
> smaller and smaller and only a Faith which is based on teachings which
> provide
> a spiritual transformation to a Human-Being or humanity as whole by
> changing or improving the rules or laws which govern Society, you will
> understand what
> the Baha'i Faith is all about.
Islam makes the same claim. There is nothing in Baha'ism that hasn't
already been articulated elsewhere, and if people wish social
transformation they fight for it under secular umbrellas of various
interests. Baha'ism has no monopoly on doctrines of social justice.
>
> All the Faith, you mention above, like Sufism or Kabbalah, they focus
> on changing Society by mainly providing a spiritual transformation to
> an individual, and that is not enough for this day.
Why?
>
> For example, take a look on Rwanda Genocide, how could those Devoted
> and very Spiritual Christians kill each other, if they are transformed
> spiritually?
And exactly how did you Baha'ists stop the genocide in Rwanda with
your...cough...'healing message'?
> The response is simple: Because the rules which govern the Country of
> Rwanda were corrupted, not based on Justice.
The idea you Baha'ists have of justice is laughable and pathetic.
Rwanda does not (nor did it ever) require a group of deluded middle
class cultists of an Amway religion to show them the way out of their
problems.
> So, there is not any current philosophy or ideology or any other
> religions or Babism you belong to, which can succeed to provide a
> complete spiritual
> transformation to Humanity if not the one brought by the Manifestation
> of the Age, Baha'u'llah.
Yes, indeed there is, it is called the philosophy of Green politics.
Your Baha'ism cannot even begin to address all the problems of the
world.
>He was really a true Divine Physician.
Husayn Ali Nuri was a fraud and a charlatan, much like your
"infallible" rulers in Zionistan today.
> Before long, insha'allah, once his name and his healing message are
> recognized, the world will become that God's Kingdom foretold in the
> Holy Books of the Past.
L O L :)) There is a saying in Persian, bokhor ash be hamin khiyal
bash!
Randy Burns
Cheers, Randy
--
"Freethought110" <freetho...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:83b59396.04011...@posting.google.com...
> Yes, indeed there is, it is called the philosophy of Green politics.
> Your Baha'ism cannot even begin to address all the problems of the
> world.
>
!