Response to Robert Arvay (Mason Remey's gradual realization of his station)
Ross Campbell
"In contrast, the BF does spell out an institutional structure. That
structure included the vital post of Guardianship, along with rules of
succession. The succession did not indisputably happen, a crisis
ensued, and various Bahai factions have resulted, each with a partial
solution to the insoluble problem. Today, the UHJ faction is the
predominant faction, but that could change."
and also:
"The claimants to successorship have much weaker cases. Even Mason
Remey admitted that it took him some time to figure out that he was
the appointed successor, a most peculiar claim, since one would expect
the (newly appointed) Guardian himself to at least know he was the
Guardian. This defect cannot be covered up. The Remeyites prove that
the UHJ is a contrivance, but the UHJ can prove the same of Remey."
The fact that Mason Remey did not immediately recognize
the veiled manner by which he was appointed to be second
Guardian only demonstrates that Divine guidance in this Dispensation
"...flows on to us in this world...through...the guardians".
It is evident that Divine Guidance proceeds from a higher Source
than the Guardians. That Guidance does not originate with the
guardians. Furthermore, Mason Remey was immensely
respectful of the station of the other Hands of the Cause
and demonstrated great humility at all times. He defended the
continuing Guardianship at all times also, contiguously
attempting to persuade the other Hands of that Truth.
He never abandoned Baha'i principles and exhausted every
effort to correct the erroneous course of the other Hands,
always with honor and respect for the sacred Institutions
of the Faith,including the Institution of the Hands of the Cause.
After nothing more could be done in his attempts to correct
the situation, he journeyed to america, and I believe that
it was on the trip to America that the full realization of
his station became clear to him.
The first of our Guardians wrote:
"He feels that if ......ponders more deeply about the
fundamentals of Divine Revelation, she will also come to
understand the Guardianship. Once the mind and heart have
grasped the fact that God guides men through a Mouthpiece,
a human being, a Prophet, infallible and unerring, it is
only a logical projection of this acceptance to also accept
the station of 'Abdu'l-Baha' and the Guardians. The
Guardians are the evidence of the maturity of mankind in
the sense that at long last men have progressed to the point
of having one world, and of needing one world management for
human affairs. In the spiritual realm they have also reached
the point where God could leave in human hands (ie. the
Guardians') guided directly by the Bab and Baha'u'llah, as
the Master states in His Will, the affairs of His Faith for
this Dispensation. This is what is meant by "this is the day
which will not be followed by night." In this Dispensation,
divine guidance flows on to us in this world after the Prophet's
ascension through , first the Master, and then the Guardians.
If a person can accept Baha'u'llah's function, it should not
present any difficulty to them to also accept what He has
ordained in a divinely guided individual in matters pertaining
to the Faith."...
The third Guardian's website:
Robert Arvay
Ross, you make a statement of doctrine, which one must either accept
or reject on faith.
I find Baha'i doctrine to be incompatible with Biblical teaching. It
(Bahai) is a doctrine which I once did believe. But years later, when
my life had disintegrated to the point that only a miracle could
repair the damage I had done, I had a miraculous encounter with the
person of Jesus Christ, which I cannot adequately convey in words. He
restored my soul, and has walked with me ever since. I began reading
the Bible, and the more I read, the more I learned about Him, and the
more I understood His miraculous intervention in my life.
While I continue to sin, to stumble and fall, and to bring Him grief,
I do see His constant influence in my life, for the better. He will
never leave me.
It is to Jesus I cling, for I have (as the apostles confessed to Him)
no place else to go. Jesus is God incarnate, unique and incomparable,
not merely one in a line of successive (or even progressive)
revelations.
It is with shame that I confess to not being a better person, a better
example of His love and mercy. But at least I can implore all who
will listen to seek His face, to take Him up on His promise, that all
who call upon Him will be saved.
=========
rossca...@shaw.ca (Ross Campbell) wrote in message news:<67eada02.03123...@posting.google.com>...
Susan Maneck
>I find Baha'i doctrine to be incompatible with Biblical teaching. It
>(Bahai) is a doctrine which I once did believe. But years later, when
>my life had disintegrated to the point that only a miracle could
>repair the damage I had done,
Dear Robert,
You had already forsaken the Baha'i Teachings by this time, right?
warmest, Susan
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st
Dermod Ryder
"Susan Maneck " <sma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040102033927...@mb-m06.aol.com...
> >
> >I find Baha'i doctrine to be incompatible with Biblical teaching. It
> >(Bahai) is a doctrine which I once did believe. But years later, when
> >my life had disintegrated to the point that only a miracle could
> >repair the damage I had done,
>
> Dear Robert,
>
> You had already forsaken the Baha'i Teachings by this time, right?
Of course! But then, so have the Bahais! Not that that is any
justification or consolation for Robert ... or the Bahais for that matter.
I just look forward to meeting all these lost souls in the warmer climate
that apparently awaits us all. There are so many ways to be saved that I've
just given up trying to figure out which is the right one. No matter what
you do, somebody is running around telling you that you're a lost soul ....
unless you chip in to their particular fund which has a monopoly on
salvation. I'm bored with the whole sanguinary lot of them.
Indeed I'm thinking of starting a new religion - the religion for the lost
and damned. Spare yourself the problem of filtering through the claims of
the clowns and come to terms with damnation!
Eat, drink and be merry today, because, tomorrow ... you're damned!
Susan Maneck
>
>Indeed I'm thinking of starting a new religion - the religion for the lost
>and damned.
Nima already did that.
Robert Arvay
sma...@aol.com (Susan Maneck ) wrote in message news:<20040102033927...@mb-m06.aol.com>...
> >
> >I find Baha'i doctrine to be incompatible with Biblical teaching. It
> >(Bahai) is a doctrine which I once did believe. But years later, when
> >my life had disintegrated to the point that only a miracle could
> >repair the damage I had done,
>
> Dear Robert,
>
> You had already forsaken the Baha'i Teachings by this time, right?
>
Yes. Mostly. I had lost contact, and gradually drifted.
Perhaps you surmise that my drift from Bahai may have caused my
spiritual descent.
But it was my return to Christianity that marked the turnaround point
in my life. And it has sustained me in a way that Bahai never did.
I don't blame the BF for my troubles. Those, I inflicted upon myself,
and would have, no matter what.
I do credit Jesus the Messiah for all the many blessings I have
enjoyed, and for a peace which surpasses understanding.
Robert Arvay
"Dermod Ryder" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<bta3ma$4dkls$1...@ID-84503.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> ...There are so many ways to be saved that I've
> just given up trying to figure out which is the right one. No matter what
> you do, somebody is running around telling you that you're a lost soul ....
> unless you chip in to their particular fund which has a monopoly on
> salvation. I'm bored with the whole sanguinary lot of them.
>
I encountered a similar dilemma when I was in Army basic training---
so many people from so many religions, each assured that his was the
right one--- or that there was no right one.
Occam's razor is the principle of using the simplest solution to any
problem.
In spiritual terms, you do not have to find the truth (you can't).
Jesus will find you. He will seek you out. You're lost. He's the
finder.
If there is anything on your part to do, it is simply to NOT reject
Jesus when He finally breaks through all the clutter that we put in
His way.
Once you allow Him into your life, He will lead the way, to all truth.
Boring? I've found it to be quite the opposite!
Susan Maneck
>in my life. And it has sustained me in a way that Bahai never did.
Dear Robert,
And there are likewise those who drifted away from Christianity and eventually
found sustainance in the Baha'u'llah that they could not find in Christianity.
The only way I can judge between them and their experiences is to look at
someone like Robert or QisQos (at least in that persona) and say "Are these the
kind of people I would like to become?" And the answer comes back to me
immediately "Nah!"
warmest, Susan
Ross Campbell
to be the true path,
Robert wrote:
"In spiritual terms, you do not have to find the truth (you can't).
Jesus will find you. He will seek you out. You're lost. He's the
finder.
If there is anything on your part to do, it is simply to NOT reject
Jesus when He finally breaks through all the clutter that we put in
His way.
Once you allow Him into your life, He will lead the way, to all truth."
Amongst the approximately 300 different Christian churches
which I have visited during the past 5+ years, I have visited
a considerable number of congregations with wall to wall white-
haired members. Five generations are missing--no pre-teens, no
teens, no 20's no 30's and no 40's. A sprinkling of 50's and the
remainer in their 60's 70's 80's and beyond.
Those old folks are not moving to other denominations. Some of
them have been in the same church for 50 years or more, and they
are dying right where they are, one after another after another.
And the same is essentially the case in all of the dozens of
conflicting Christian denominations. I do not perceive that those
ones are 'following' anyone's 'lead', not to mention following
the "lead" of Jesus "...to all truth".
I observe them gathering together for tea and cookies while they
wait to die. They display no consciousness of their spiritual need.
And the conflicting teachings of those different denominations remain
as they are, many even diametrically opposed to each other.
Ross
Dermod Ryder
> >lot of them.
> >
> >Indeed I'm thinking of starting a new religion - the religion for the
lost
> >and damned.
>
> Nima already did that.
Now that just shows your lack of understanding at what he did!
Robert Arvay
sma...@aol.com (Susan Maneck ) wrote in message news:<20040105111726...@mb-m28.aol.com>...
>
> And there are likewise those who drifted away from Christianity and eventually
> found sustainance in the Baha'u'llah that they could not find in Christianity.
>
> The only way I can judge between them and their experiences is to look at
> someone like Robert or QisQos (at least in that persona) and say "Are these the
> kind of people I would like to become?" And the answer comes back to me
> immediately "Nah!"
>
Well, I would not wish you to become like me, either.
As to people who have left Christianity and found sustenance in Bahai:
I make no attempt to deny another's personal testimony, even when it
conflicts with my own experience. I can only bear witness to what I
have seen and heard.
In his most recent post to this thread, Ross paints a dismal picture
of Christians: of stubborn, elderly doctrinaires drinking tea and
waiting to die.
His depiction contrasts sharply with mine. But if that is his
testimony, I cannot account for it, but only give my own.
Life is fleeting, and eternity is forever. Sooner than we think, we
shall all confront truth in its finality, and no one will be able to
boast.
Paul Hammond
> >lot of them.
> >
> >Indeed I'm thinking of starting a new religion - the religion for the lost
> >and damned.
>
> Nima already did that.
>
Dermod,
Do you have a list of enemies all fired up and ready to go?
Or will your religion differ from that of our Captain,
Master and Commander, by being open to all comers and
not a method of self-aggrandisement?
So long as you'll buy me a Bushmills, I'll sign up tomorrow!
Paul
Susan Maneck
>of Christians: of stubborn, elderly doctrinaires drinking tea and
>waiting to die.
Dear Robert,
I found that description rather amusing because I think it fits most of the
Remeyites I know of to a tee. ;-} And I've known a few Baha'i communities like
that as well. There was one in which all the members of the Assembly were of
retirement age. When I moved into the community I was treated as a baby Baha'i,
though I had been a believer for more than seven years and probably knew the
Writings better than them. Then I started to teach the Faith and brought in a
number of hippie-types, much to their dismay. I would get complaints about how
they would show up at Feast barefooted with their out-of-control toddlers in
tow. One of those hippies now is chairman of the Assembly. But he wears shoes
these days.
Ross, btw, was a Jehovah Witness before he became a Baha'i. And he is probably
surprised I know his life-story.
Susan Maneck
>
>Do you have a list of enemies all fired up and ready to go?
Yeah, do I get to be the first Letter of Negation again?
Dermod Ryder
"Paul Hammond" <paha...@onetel.net.uk> wrote in message
news:c977f97b.04010...@posting.google.com...
> Do you have a list of enemies all fired up and ready to go?
Just the followers of 124,000 different "Prophets" who doorstep day and
daily advising us that if we don't join their particular club, we are doomed
to eternal damnation. I'll just take damnation - it's by far the easier
option!
> Or will your religion differ from that of our Captain,
> Master and Commander, by being open to all comers and
> not a method of self-aggrandisement?
Yup!
> So long as you'll buy me a Bushmills, I'll sign up tomorrow!
Great! Just so long as you get the next round in!
Dermod Ryder
> >
> >
> >Do you have a list of enemies all fired up and ready to go?
>
> Yeah, do I get to be the first Letter of Negation again?
A self appointment? Why not? You want salvation? You got it!
Of course the followers of 123,999 other "Prophets" will disagree with that
.... but you can sort that one out among yourselves. I'll just stand on the
sideline and laugh.
Pat Kohli
Susan Maneck wrote:
> >
> >
> >Do you have a list of enemies all fired up and ready to go?
>
> Yeah, do I get to be the first Letter of Negation again?
DAGNABBIT!
Dermod Ryder
"Pat Kohli" <kohliCUT...@ameritel.net> wrote in message
news:3FFB60AE...@ameritel.net...
Age is getting to you! You've slowed down!
>
Dermod Ryder
> > Ross paints a dismal picture
> >of Christians: of stubborn, elderly doctrinaires drinking tea and
> >waiting to die.
>
> Dear Robert,
>
> I found that description rather amusing because I think it fits most of
the
> Remeyites I know of to a tee. ;-}
And BIGS are just sitting around waiting for Entry By Troops.
It all sounds so similarly boring.
Dermod Ryder
"Robert Arvay" <Rober...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:e247d7b6.04010...@posting.google.com...
> I encountered a similar dilemma when I was in Army basic training---
> so many people from so many religions, each assured that his was the
> right one--- or that there was no right one.
Yup! Common problem - that's why I've come up with a radical solution;
accept damnation with a smile on your face and understand that's an easier
way to go.
> Occam's razor is the principle of using the simplest solution to any
> problem.
I prefer Gillette!
> In spiritual terms, you do not have to find the truth (you can't).
> Jesus will find you. He will seek you out. You're lost. He's the
> finder.
He hasn't been seen around these parts.
> If there is anything on your part to do, it is simply to NOT reject
> Jesus when He finally breaks through all the clutter that we put in
> His way.
Trouble is that his many versions cause most of the clutter
> Once you allow Him into your life, He will lead the way, to all truth.
But which truth?
> Boring? I've found it to be quite the opposite!
Bully for you!
Susan Maneck
>> Once you allow Him into your life, He will lead the way, to all truth.
>
Seems to me like He has led lots of people in lots of different directions.
Ross Campbell
story, Susan. I also am interested in your life story, however
I have always been afraid to ask. I was very interested to read your
story about the "hippie-types " whom you introduced to the Faith.
Cordially,
Ross
Jeffrey
"Ross Campbell" <rossca...@shaw.ca> wrote in m
> > Ross, btw, was a Jehovah Witness before he became a Baha'i. And he is
probably
> > surprised I know his life-story.
> >
> > warmest, Susan
> >
> story, Susan. I also am interested in your life story, however
> I have always been afraid to ask. I was very interested to read your
> story about the "hippie-types " whom you introduced to the Faith.
> Cordially,
> Ross
Ross may be surprised that the Heterodox organization knows his life story,
but I am not. Since I was a member of that organization for a number of
years, I know how the Aux. Boards operate. It is a huge spying network that
keeps tabs on all of the members to make sure they keep in line. There are
few things they don't know about us.
The appalling thing is how loose-lipped they are about publicly disclosing
intimate details of people's lives that they glean from various sources.
Somebody really ought to sue them. In fact Dr Maneck should be careful
about what she posts here. There is such a thing as privacy rights.
By the way, if you are a member of that organization, and are getting a
divorce or other personal matter that involves your local assembly, be
careful what you reveal. The gossipers in the organization just might
broadcast your personal stories far and wide. It might even show up here.
I wonder if Susan knows the story of how my children were treated after the
bogus UHJ declared me a C-B and told my wife and children to leave me (they
did not). My kids were pretty young at the time and could not possibly
understand why the same people who used to show them so much love at the
children's classes and feasts, suddenly became hate-filled monsters. I
believe there is a special place in hell prepared for people who treat
children in that manner.
Jeffrey
Dermod Ryder
"Jeffrey" <con...@truebahai.com> wrote in message
news:QzALb.27$U27....@news.uswest.net...
> I wonder if Susan knows the story of how my children were treated after
the
> bogus UHJ declared me a C-B and told my wife and children to leave me
(they
> did not). My kids were pretty young at the time and could not possibly
> understand why the same people who used to show them so much love at the
> children's classes and feasts, suddenly became hate-filled monsters. I
> believe there is a special place in hell prepared for people who treat
> children in that manner.
We already know that the Haifans are a shower of scum-bags when it comes to
treating "apostates." It's one of their least endearing characteristics...
but only one, I hasten to add.
He who refuses discourse with another human being and labels him evil
displays only his own bigotry, prejudice and inadequacy. Those who lurk
here under the delusion that Bahai proffers solutions to divisions in the
world should take note - that which claims to have the solution for others'
problems cannot find, or is even willing to seek, solutions to its own. This
will doubtless be met by a chorus of "Abdul Baha said!" Frankly I don't
care what he said because if he stated that "apostates" were to be shunned
he was wrong.
I don't agree with you guys of the Guardianist persuasion but I wish you
well, largely because you're not full of the hatred that permeates Haifans
for those who criticise them. Keep up your good work here and I do hope
that you grow and counter that hatred.
And Hell's too good for shits who treat children like that! As one of the
legion of the damned, I shall protest strongly if any of these people show
up there. Kindly find some other place for them. AFAIC, hell is for folk
who refused to follow shitheads like that.
>
> Jeffrey
>
>
Susan Maneck
>We already know that the Haifans are a shower of scum-bags when it comes to
>treating "apostates." It's one of their least endearing characteristics...
>but only one, I hasten to add.
Come one, Dermod. You know full well the treatment of Covenant breakers and
their families is based on the Guardian's policy. It's not something the House
of Justice made up. The Remeyites only argument on this point is whether it
should be applied to them, though they moan and groan at how they are treated.
Dermod Ryder
> >
> >We already know that the Haifans are a shower of scum-bags when it comes
to
> >treating "apostates." It's one of their least endearing
characteristics...
> >but only one, I hasten to add.
>
> Come one, Dermod. You know full well the treatment of Covenant breakers
and
> their families is based on the Guardian's policy. It's not something the
House
> of Justice made up. The Remeyites only argument on this point is whether
it
> should be applied to them, though they moan and groan at how they are
treated.
I don't give a shit as to who devised it or why. The fact that it remains
in force is an absolute abomination and proof positive that yours, and any
other that resorts to the same device, is a bigoted, nasty, dirty sectarian
cult.
The Grumpies bear the guilt of maintaining and using it for their own
abhorrent aims. They want it as a disciplinary measure - they still inhabit
a mindset that thinks they can subdue opposition by acting like gobshites.
In as much as it was a legislative measure by Shoghi Rabbani, it is voidable
and ought to be dispensed with.
If there was any decency in Haifa the measure would be quietly dropped and
the BIGS instructed not to use the term for separated brethren. But there
isn't and that won't happen.
Susan Maneck
>I don't give a shit as to who devised it or why. The fact that it remains
>in force is an absolute abomination
So go get on Jeff's case. Just a bit ago he posted the following from
Abdu'l-Baha:
"As soon as they see a trace of violation of the Covenant, they must hold aloof
from the violator."
Don't you think he is being a little hypocritical to criticize us for obeying
those words?
> They want it as a disciplinary measure
No, it is not a disciplinary measure. Abdu'l-Baha made is clear it was to
protect the friends.
>In as much as it was a legislative measure by Shoghi Rabbani
It isn't a legislative matter. It comes from Baha'u'llah Himself has been shown
here earlier.
Dermod Ryder
>
>
> >I don't give a shit as to who devised it or why. The fact that it
remains
> >in force is an absolute abomination
>
> So go get on Jeff's case. Just a bit ago he posted the following from
> Abdu'l-Baha:
>
> "As soon as they see a trace of violation of the Covenant, they must hold
aloof
> from the violator."
>
> Don't you think he is being a little hypocritical to criticize us for
obeying
> those words?
>
> > They want it as a disciplinary measure
>
> No, it is not a disciplinary measure. Abdu'l-Baha made is clear it was to
> protect the friends.
>
> >In as much as it was a legislative measure by Shoghi Rabbani
>
> It isn't a legislative matter. It comes from Baha'u'llah Himself has been
shown
> here earlier.
Like I said - I don't give a shit who devised it! It's an abomination and
not at all to be justified.
Randy Burns
prevent the friends from thinking for themselves, from using their own
intelligence. Many things that were briefly necessary at a time when the
true teachings of the Faith were little known in the Western World are now
no longer necessary but are held onto solely to buttress the egos of the AO
and to close off the rank and file Baha'is from every type of influence save
that of the cult style thinking of the inner group.
Randy
--
"Susan Maneck " <sma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040109205640...@mb-m04.aol.com...
Susan Maneck
>true teachings of the Faith were little known in the Western World are now
>no longer necessary but are held onto solely to buttress the egos of the AO
>and to close off the rank and file Baha'is from every type of influence save
>that of the cult style thinking of the inner group.
Dear Randy,
This is nonsense. First off your theory presumes that shunning Covenant
breakers was somehow peculiarly necessary to the West. In fact, it was much
more widespread in Asian countries. It practice goes back to Baha'u'llah and
beyond that to the early church. Unlike the practice of review there is nothing
in our Teachings to suggest it is temporary. Finally, it cannot possibly close
us off to 'every type of influence' since there are exceeding few people who
are Baha'is are supposed to shun. I've only met one such person in real life in
the 33 years I've been a Baha'i and that was Nancy Carre.
If you want to hold this against someone better to do what Dermod does, admit
that it is an instrinsic part of the Teachings and reject the whole ball of
wax. But don't blame the AO for following the Teachings they are supposed to
uphold.
Susan
Ross Campbell
Dear Jeffrey, although I have not doubt that all you
have said in the above post is true, I suspect that
in Susan's case, in all likelihood, her knowledge of my
pesonal life-story was acquired in total innocence
through her friendly discussions with my dear friend
Marc, who lamentably has thus far failed to perceive the
authority and genuineness of the Proclamations of the
second and third Guardians, (recently posted in this
newsgroup)and thus remains adhered to the sans-Guardian
organization.
Ross
Brid
That's truly despicable, Jeffrey and the sufferings of your children
put all the bleat about hating the sin but loving the sinner into
context. As an ex-baha'i I have no hesitation in acknowledging the
truth of all the points you have made here in relation to gossip and
the way those who have left the fold are treated, but the hate meted
out to your children is in a league of its own.
Brid
Randy Burns
Sure in Asian countries that were largely illiterate and with almost no
communications system of any kind save that of people carrying
correspondence with them as they traveled about the countryside, these
strictures might have been necessary. Big deal! Are you saying that most
Baha'is in Iran are today illiterate and that today Baha'i correspondence is
carried about by people traveling around the country because they have no
phone system, or mail system? This is a modern world and not the 19th
century any longer!
There is no excuse of these practices today, practices which in fact rely on
secrecy and inquisition. I seriously doubt that what the AO is doing is
necessary to carrying out the instructions of Baha'u'llah in this matter.
Randy
--
"Susan Maneck " <sma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040110000825...@mb-m13.aol.com...
Jeffrey
"Ross Campbell" <rossca...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:67eada02.04011...@posting.google.com...
>
> Dear Jeffrey, although I have not doubt that all you
> have said in the above post is true, I suspect that
> in Susan's case, in all likelihood, her knowledge of my
> pesonal life-story was acquired in total innocence
> through her friendly discussions with my dear friend
> Marc, who lamentably has thus far failed to perceive the
> authority and genuineness of the Proclamations of the
> second and third Guardians, (recently posted in this
> newsgroup)and thus remains adhered to the sans-Guardian
> organization.
>
> Ross
Ross, you may be right that they were just friendly discussions. My point
was that what the Heterodox Baha'is might believe are merely friendly
discussions, are often calculated and intentionally initiated for the
purpose of information gathering and reporting to the Aux. Boards. They
really are constantly reporting on each other. This is why Dr Maneck seems
to know so much about us.
The reason I know this was that I was an Assistant to Aux Bd. Member for
Protection for a time, many years ago. At the time I did not understand
what they were doing-- they kept asking for reports on people. I could not
figure out why they wanted information on everyone especially since the
people they asked about were fine upstanding believers and there was nothing
to report! I later realized that it is part of their methods to "protect"
the Cause. I guess I never reported well enough since I did not move up in
the ranks of the learned!
Jeffrey
Susan Maneck
>communications system of any kind save that of people carrying
>correspondence with them as they traveled about the countryside, these
>strictures might have been necessary.
Gee, Randy, first it was temporarily necessary because we were ignorant
Westerners. Now it was necessary because the Baha'is living in Asia were
illiterate. Which is it? And where did Baha'u'llah or Abdu'l-Baha connect
shunning with illiteracy? Or did Shoghi Effendi do this?
>Are you saying that most
>Baha'is in Iran are today illiterate and that today Baha'i correspondence is
>carried about by people traveling around the country because they have no
>phone system, or mail system?
I can't remember arguing along these lines at all. As I recall I said we did
this because the Manifestation and the Centre of the Covenant told us to. I
also indicated that this practice was not at all peculiar to the Baha'i Faith.
The connection with Asian literacy, like your connection with Western
ignorance, is only in your own imagination.
Susan Maneck
>out to your children is in a league of its own.
>
Brid,
You don't know hate was meted out to his children. All you know is that Baha'is
couldn't associate with them per the instructions of Shoghi Effendi who the
Remeyites themselves claim to follow.
> (From a letter dated 24 October 1947 to a National Spiritual
> Assembly)
> No intelligent and loyal Baha'i would associate with a descendant of
>Azal, if he traced the slightest breath of criticism of our Faith, in any
>aspect, from that person. In fact these people should be strenuously avoided
>as having an inherited spiritual disease -- the disease of Covenant-breaking!
>Certainly such matters should be brought to the attention of the Assembly or
>National Spiritual Assembly within whose jurisdiction they occur.
>
> (From letter dated 9 December 1948 to an individual believer)
>
>The friends are sometimes surprisingly naive and superficial in their approach
>to the subject of Covenant-breakers. They do not seem to understand that the
>descendants of Azal, with their mother's milk, drank hatred of
>Baha'u'llah, just as the descendants of Muhammad- Ali and his relatives
>have imbibed from
>babyhood a false concept of the Master. It takes practically a miracle
>to overcome this lifelong habit of wrong thought. Now, however, he has
>told the
>German believers to shun her.
>
> (From a letter dated 18 August 1949 written on behlaf of
> the Guardian to a National Spiritual Assembly)
Obviously no Baha'i is authorized to 'hate' anyone. To describe someone's
behavior as hateful is rather subjective.
Susan
Michael McKenny
You shared with us:
Susan Maneck (sma...@aol.com) writes:
>>Sure in Asian countries that were largely illiterate and with almost no
>>communications system of any kind save that of people carrying
>>correspondence with them as they traveled about the countryside, these
>>strictures might have been necessary.
>
> Gee, Randy, first it was temporarily necessary because we were ignorant
> Westerners. Now it was necessary because the Baha'is living in Asia were
> illiterate. Which is it? And where did Baha'u'llah or Abdu'l-Baha connect
> shunning with illiteracy? Or did Shoghi Effendi do this?
Could it be possible that it was the infancy of your religion that had
its spiritual leaders concerned, in a time of poor communications in both
the East and the West, that there could be very great misinformation by a
few people deliberately seeking to cause confusion?
There are many splendid passages in the ocean of the Baha'i writings
such as the direction by the Centre of the Covenant that Baha'is are to
associate with the followers of all religions (and this, of course, would
be perceived as including all Baha'is) in a spirit of amity and friendship.
It is a significant teaching of Baha'u'llah and of the spiritually
minded leaders who came after him within his religion, that not only is
there growth of human spirituality from age to age, but also within each
age, each new day of the spirit, there is an elevation of the sun of
understanding, a brightening of the illumination of realization, a
warming of the divine rays giving life to the people of that age.
It is a very reasonable, a very faith fulfilling, a very hopeful view
of this great manifestation of world peace that this age of the coming
together of humanity, of the achievement of human maturity, of the
recognition of the harmony of the vast variety of the creatures of a
beneficient creator is one during which the initial measures of not
associating with a few declared leadership contenders, may be set aside
and a Twenty First Century living the life demonstrated as an example to
all humanity that medieval prejudices and cult practises are no longer
enacted.
>>Are you saying that most
>>Baha'is in Iran are today illiterate and that today Baha'i correspondence is
>>carried about by people traveling around the country because they have no
>>phone system, or mail system?
>
> I can't remember arguing along these lines at all. As I recall I said we did
> this because the Manifestation and the Centre of the Covenant told us to. I
> also indicated that this practice was not at all peculiar to the Baha'i Faith.
> The connection with Asian literacy, like your connection with Western
> ignorance, is only in your own imagination.
>
In my opinion, the notion that in this age any shunning need be
perpetuated is only in the imagination of those shunning, and, I feel, the
hearts of those noble ones you cite for the practise are saddened by the
selection of this deed over the more enduring benefits they advised.
To you and yours, brightness, happiness and joy.
Thrive, Michael
--
"My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard."
(Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2)
Brid
> > but the hate meted
> >out to your children is in a league of its own.
> >
>
> Brid,
>
> You don't know hate was meted out to his children. All you know is that Baha'is
> couldn't associate with them per the instructions of Shoghi Effendi who the
> Remeyites themselves claim to follow.
Susan,
Jeffrey told us that his children were left hurt and bewildered by
people who had once shown them love and kindness turning into
'hate-filled monsters'. My experience of Baha'is as both a member and
an ex-member leaves me with no reason to doubt the veracity of that.
Jeffrey's kids were not descendants of Azal in any case.
>
> > (From a letter dated 24 October 1947 to a National Spiritual
> > Assembly)
> > No intelligent and loyal Baha'i would associate with a descendant of
> >Azal, if he traced the slightest breath of criticism of our Faith, in any
> >aspect, from that person. In fact these people should be strenuously avoided
> >as having an inherited spiritual disease -- the disease of Covenant-breaking!
> >Certainly such matters should be brought to the attention of the Assembly or
> >National Spiritual Assembly within whose jurisdiction they occur.
> >
> > (From letter dated 9 December 1948 to an individual believer)
So Jeffrey's youngsters had inherited his spiritual disease overnight?
What an absurd notion! So much for the reconciliation of science and
religion. I think adults who drag kids into disputes they are having
with those kids' parents are the pits.
> >
> >The friends are sometimes surprisingly naive and superficial in their approach
> >to the subject of Covenant-breakers. They do not seem to understand that the
> >descendants of Azal, with their mother's milk, drank hatred of
> >Baha'u'llah, just as the descendants of Muhammad- Ali and his relatives
> >have imbibed from
> >babyhood a false concept of the Master. It takes practically a miracle
> >to overcome this lifelong habit of wrong thought. Now, however, he has
> >told the
> >German believers to shun her.
> >
> > (From a letter dated 18 August 1949 written on behlaf of
> > the Guardian to a National Spiritual Assembly)
So a baby at the breast is drinking in heresy now too? Another
absurdity.
>
> Obviously no Baha'i is authorized to 'hate' anyone.
Pull the other one, it's got bells on!
> To describe someone's
> behavior as hateful is rather subjective.
Your own interpretation of the injunction to associate with ex-baha'is
in joy and fragrance was pretty subjective too, wasn't it? How did it
go again? It's like finding out that somebody has cancer....
Brid
Adelard
>
> You don't know hate was meted out to his children. All you know is that Baha'is
> couldn't associate with them per the instructions of Shoghi Effendi who the
> Remeyites themselves claim to follow.
Here is the proof of what Jeffrey's Guardian did to Brent.
Maybe Brid may ask him if he really believes in His Guardian's actions
toward Brent. If yes, he should clean up his own house first. if not,
maybe he may not care much of Joel, and he is just here of creating
disunity of the Faith as usual.
Peace,
Adelard
Adelard
>
> You don't know hate was meted out to his children. All you know is that Baha'is
> couldn't associate with them per the instructions of Shoghi Effendi who the
> Remeyites themselves claim to follow.
Susan Maneck
>Jeffrey told us that his children were left hurt and bewildered by
>people who had once shown them love and kindness turning into
>'hate-filled monsters'.
Dear Brid,
I'm sure that is his perception. I doubt very much if that is what the Baha'is
involved thought they were doing.
>So Jeffrey's youngsters had inherited his spiritual disease overnight?
>What an absurd notion!
You are missing the point, Brid. Jeffrey would have tried to teach his personal
beliefs to his children who would have in turn attempted to teach them to other
Baha'is. That is what couldn't be allowed.
As far as the posts from Shoghi Effendi, my point in posting those is to show
the hypocrisy of someone who claims to accept his authority complaining about
this and blaming it on the House of Justice. If you want to complain you have
every right to. You don't accept the authority of either Shoghi Effendi or the
House of Justice.
warmest, Susan
Dermod Ryder
"Adelard" <themostg...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dfdf12c8.04011...@posting.google.com...
> > Brid,
> >
> > You don't know hate was meted out to his children. All you know is that
Baha'is
> > couldn't associate with them per the instructions of Shoghi Effendi who
the
> > Remeyites themselves claim to follow.
>
>
> Here is the proof of what Jeffrey's Guardian did to Brent.
> Maybe Brid may ask him if he really believes in His Guardian's actions
> toward Brent. If yes, he should clean up his own house first. if not,
> maybe he may not care much of Joel, and he is just here of creating
> disunity of the Faith as usual.
I've already castigated Mr Melonyellow for his adherence to this scumbag
practice. But because he does is no excuse for your lot doing it as well
and I think you started it and really relish it.
So fuck that for an argument!
Susan Maneck
>and I think you started it and really relish it.
No one relishes it, and if Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi and the
House of Justice had not all insisted on it, I don't think anyone would do it.
Dermod Ryder
>> I can't remember arguing along these lines at all. As I recall I said we
did
> this because the Manifestation and the Centre of the Covenant told us to.
I
> also indicated that this practice was not at all peculiar to the Baha'i
Faith.
> The connection with Asian literacy, like your connection with Western
> ignorance, is only in your own imagination.
These people who advocate shunning have nothing to do with the spirit of
this age and offer no advancement over the superstitions of other and older
religions. They are therefore not what they claimed to be.
Dermod Ryder
> >
> >Jeffrey told us that his children were left hurt and bewildered by
> >people who had once shown them love and kindness turning into
> >'hate-filled monsters'.
>
> Dear Brid,
>
> I'm sure that is his perception. I doubt very much if that is what the
Baha'is
> involved thought they were doing.
Screw that for a fantasy! I've been on the receiving end of loving Bahai
shunning.
> >So Jeffrey's youngsters had inherited his spiritual disease overnight?
> >What an absurd notion!
>
> You are missing the point, Brid. Jeffrey would have tried to teach his
personal
> beliefs to his children who would have in turn attempted to teach them to
other
> Baha'is. That is what couldn't be allowed.
Once upon a time I told the NSA of the UK to keep its nasty dirty hands off
my daughter and not try to include her in its membership stats or try to
enlist her until she was 18. The beggars had the temerity to tell me that I
had no right to prevent her learning the religion her mother professed. But
obviously that's the rule for the AO - it can teach what and whom it wants
but if anybody wants to say different .. why, they have abslutely no right.
I've often wondered if it was bare faced effrontery or blatant ignorance
that had the AO adopt arrogance and hypocrisy as its core praxis - actually
it's both.
> As far as the posts from Shoghi Effendi, my point in posting those is to
show
> the hypocrisy of someone who claims to accept his authority complaining
about
> this and blaming it on the House of Justice. If you want to complain you
have
> every right to. You don't accept the authority of either Shoghi Effendi or
the
> House of Justice.
What you quoted just demonstrated that Shoghi was a little shit and so are
his shunning soulmates, whether Orthodox, Haifan or any other variety of the
obnoxious breed.
Dermod Ryder
> > But because he does is no excuse for your lot doing it as well
> >and I think you started it and really relish it.
>
> No one relishes it,
Well then they don't have to do it!
> and if Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi and the
> House of Justice had not all insisted on it, I don't think anyone would do
it.
And you hope people will accept your noxious faith ... I don't think so!
Unless mebbe the National Front or the Nazis - they like to shun ... blacks,
Jews etc etc.
If your faith is so right why can't you dismiss the arguments and
pretensions of your opponents by debate and discourse?
Pat Kohli
Michael McKenny wrote:
> Greeting, Susan.
> You shared with us:
>
> Susan Maneck (sma...@aol.com) writes:
> >>Sure in Asian countries that were largely illiterate and with almost no
> >>communications system of any kind save that of people carrying
> >>correspondence with them as they traveled about the countryside, these
> >>strictures might have been necessary.
> >
> > Gee, Randy, first it was temporarily necessary because we were ignorant
> > Westerners. Now it was necessary because the Baha'is living in Asia were
> > illiterate. Which is it? And where did Baha'u'llah or Abdu'l-Baha connect
> > shunning with illiteracy? Or did Shoghi Effendi do this?
>
> Could it be possible that it was the infancy of your religion that had
> its spiritual leaders concerned, in a time of poor communications in both
> the East and the West, that there could be very great misinformation by a
> few people deliberately seeking to cause confusion?
That is a good question. Thanks for asking.
Shunning of Covenant Breakers was described by 'Abdu'l Baha as an important part of
the faith.
"And now, one of the greatest and most fundamental principles
of the Cause of God is to shun and avoid entirely the
Covenant-breakers, for they will utterly destroy the Cause of
God, exterminate His Law and render of no account all efforts
exerted in the past."
http://www.bahai-library.org/writings/abdulbaha/wt/2.html
(snip)
Best wishes!
- Pat
kohli at ameritel.net
Susan Maneck
>Screw that for a fantasy! I've been on the receiving end of loving Bahai
>shunning.
No offense Dermod, but sometimes you are more than a little provocative and I
expect Baha'is sometimes react accordingly.
>Once upon a time I told the NSA of the UK to keep its nasty dirty hands off
>my daughter and not try to include her in its membership stats or try to
>enlist her until she was 18.
Gee, I can't imagine why anyone would want to avoid your charming self. ;-}
>The beggars had the temerity to tell me that I
>had no right to prevent her learning the religion her mother professed.
Sounds appropriate to me. If it was what you and your wife *both* agreed to,
that would be another matter.
Ross Campbell
> >
> >Jeffrey told us that his children were left hurt and bewildered by
> >people who had once shown them love and kindness turning into
> >'hate-filled monsters'.
>
> Dear Brid,
>
> I'm sure that is his perception. I doubt very much if that is what the Baha'is
> involved thought they were doing.
>
> >So Jeffrey's youngsters had inherited his spiritual disease overnight?
> >What an absurd notion!
>
> You are missing the point, Brid. Jeffrey would have tried to teach his personal
> beliefs to his children who would have in turn attempted to teach them to other
> Baha'is. That is what couldn't be allowed.
>
> As far as the posts from Shoghi Effendi, my point in posting those is to show
> the hypocrisy of someone who claims to accept his authority complaining about
> this and blaming it on the House of Justice. If you want to complain you have
> every right to. You don't accept the authority of either Shoghi Effendi or the
> House of Justice.
>
> warmest, Susan
"Brid,
You don't know hate was meted out to his children. All you know is that Baha'is
couldn't associate with them per the instructions of Shoghi Effendi who the
Remeyites themselves claim to follow."
The "instructions" of Shoghi Effendi written to the National
Spiritual Assembly of Canada in 1957 reserve the right to
declare a person to be a Covenant-breaker exclusively for
the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith.
I have associated with Jeffrey at eight Conferences of the
Orthodox Baha'i Faith, and I have been a guest of Jeffrey
and his beautiful family, in his home.
On his part, I have observed nothing except sincere devotion
towards our Lord Baha'u'llah and the other Founders of our Faith,
both by his words and his deeds. And even if someone thought or
thinks that they perceive something amiss in his attitude or
that of another Baha'i, such a person has no authority to
abrogate the decision of the first of our Guardians that
only a Guardian is authorized to declare a man or woman to
be a Covenant-breaker, and it is unfaithfulless for a Baha'i
to endorse such an illegal declaration made by person/s other
than a Guardian of the Baha'i Faith.
THAT is the 'instruction' of Shoghi Effendi, not the illegitimate
issuing of/supporting decrees which result in individuals comparing a
faithful Baha'i brother to Azal, an enemy of the Faith and an
enemy of the Founder of the Baha'i Faith.
The Lord wrote:
"The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice;"
The first of our Guardians wrote:
"
44 COVENANT BREAKERS (Expulsion and Reinstatement of)
"The Guardian, like the Master before him, has not
considered it advisable to as yet permit any person or Assembly
to put another person out of the Cause of God. There is a sharp
distinction between depriving a believer of his voting rights,
which is a severe disciplinary measure and not a spiritual
sanction, and pronouncing a former believer to be a truly
spiritually diseased soul, a soul in the condition the Master
referred to when, in His last cable to America before His
ascension, He said: `He who sitteth with a leper catcheth
leprosy.' The Guardian has, within the last few years,
considered the National Assemblies strong enough to wield
the instrument of sanction in the sense of depriving a Baha'i
of his voting rights. But no one but himself can pronounce
a person to be in that diseased condition we call `Covenant
Breaking' and no one but he can reinstate a Covenant Breaker.
No National Assembly has been given this right and cannot
therefore review the question or reinstate anyone..."
601. Covenant-Breakers, Defined
"People who have withdrawn from the Cause because
they no longer feel that they can support its Teachings
and Institutions sincerely, are not Covenant-breakers - they
are non-Baha'is and should just be treated as such. Only those
who ally themselves actively with known enemies of the
Faith who are Covenant-breakers, and who attack the Faith
in the samespirit as these people, can be considered, themselves,
to be Covenant-breakers. As you know, up to the present time,
no one has been permitted to pronounce anybody a Covenant-breaker
but the Guardian himself."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian
to the National Spiritual Assembly of Canada, March 30, 1957) log
Ross
The living Guardian's website:
Ross Campbell
> >
> >Jeffrey told us that his children were left hurt and bewildered by
> >people who had once shown them love and kindness turning into
> >'hate-filled monsters'.
>
> Dear Brid,
>
> I'm sure that is his perception. I doubt very much if that is what the Baha'is
> involved thought they were doing.
>
> >So Jeffrey's youngsters had inherited his spiritual disease overnight?
> >What an absurd notion!
>
> You are missing the point, Brid. Jeffrey would have tried to teach his personal
> beliefs to his children who would have in turn attempted to teach them to other
> Baha'is. That is what couldn't be allowed.
>
> As far as the posts from Shoghi Effendi, my point in posting those is to show
> the hypocrisy of someone who claims to accept his authority complaining about
> this and blaming it on the House of Justice. If you want to complain you have
> every right to. You don't accept the authority of either Shoghi Effendi or the
> House of Justice.
>
> warmest, Susan
"Brid,
You don't know hate was meted out to his children. All you know is that Baha'is
couldn't associate with them per the instructions of Shoghi Effendi who the
Remeyites themselves claim to follow."
The "instructions" of Shoghi Effendi written to the National
The Lord wrote:
Ross
>
Ross Campbell
> > Brid,
> >
> > You don't know hate was meted out to his children. All you know is that Baha'is
> > couldn't associate with them per the instructions of Shoghi Effendi who the
> > Remeyites themselves claim to follow.
>
> >
> >Jeffrey told us that his children were left hurt and bewildered by
> >people who had once shown them love and kindness turning into
> >'hate-filled monsters'.
>
> Dear Brid,
>
> I'm sure that is his perception. I doubt very much if that is what the Baha'is
> involved thought they were doing.
>
> >So Jeffrey's youngsters had inherited his spiritual disease overnight?
> >What an absurd notion!
>
> You are missing the point, Brid. Jeffrey would have tried to teach his personal
> beliefs to his children who would have in turn attempted to teach them to other
> Baha'is. That is what couldn't be allowed.
>
> As far as the posts from Shoghi Effendi, my point in posting those is to show
> the hypocrisy of someone who claims to accept his authority complaining about
> this and blaming it on the House of Justice. If you want to complain you have
> every right to. You don't accept the authority of either Shoghi Effendi or the
> House of Justice.
>
> warmest, Susan
Susan wrote:
You don't know hate was meted out to his children. All you know is that Baha'is
couldn't associate with them per the instructions of Shoghi Effendi who the
Remeyites themselves claim to follow."
The "instructions" of Shoghi Effendi written to the National
Spiritual Assembly of Canada in 1957 reserve the right to
declare a person to be a Covenant-breaker exclusively for
the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith.
I have associated with Jeffrey at many Conferences of the
Orthodox Baha'i Faith, and I have been a guest in his home.
The Lord wrote:
Ross
>
Dermod Ryder
"Pat Kohli" <kohliCUT...@ameritel.net> wrote in message
news:4000CDA8...@ameritel.net...
> Shunning of Covenant Breakers was described by 'Abdu'l Baha as an
important part of
> the faith.
>
> "And now, one of the greatest and most fundamental principles
> of the Cause of God is to shun and avoid entirely the
> Covenant-breakers, for they will utterly destroy the Cause of
> God, exterminate His Law and render of no account all efforts
> exerted in the past."
> http://www.bahai-library.org/writings/abdulbaha/wt/2.html
The dreaded W&T again? Is there no other literature from which to draw
inspiration especially as this bit stands somewhat akin to the Shroud of
Turin - partially scientifically examined and found wanting?
It has occurred to the AO, I have no doubt, that the definition of CBs might
only refer to the participants in the Family Feud that is such a feature of
the early days but acceptance of that would deprive them of a most
efficacious defensive weapon.
Sadly it is no longer an efficacious weapon. When evil, malign gits like me
can talk and write, as we do, without the Grumpies being able to do anything
to stop us, including bestowal of the honour of CBhood, don'tcha think it's
about time you all dropped the crud and just quietly left this despicable
practice where it belongs - on the dung heap of history?
Dermod Ryder
> Obviously no Baha'i is authorized to 'hate' anyone. To describe someone's
> behavior as hateful is rather subjective.
Nima would agree with you.
Dermod Ryder
> >
> >Screw that for a fantasy! I've been on the receiving end of loving Bahai
> >shunning.
>
> No offense Dermod, but sometimes you are more than a little provocative
and I
> expect Baha'is sometimes react accordingly.
I hate recourse to the playground but I delight in telling you that they
started it and kept it going by stern and absolute refusal to ever deal
fairly or adequately with any problem that arose between us.
> >Once upon a time I told the NSA of the UK to keep its nasty dirty hands
off
> >my daughter and not try to include her in its membership stats or try to
> >enlist her until she was 18.
>
> Gee, I can't imagine why anyone would want to avoid your charming self.
;-}
Fear? Hatred? Inability to acknowledge having made a mistake in the first
place?
When they claimed my infant daughter was one of theirs I, reluctantly,
assented to the Lady Reaper handling it in her nice quiet Bahai way and when
the beggars refused to properly withdraw the claim and apologise for it (as
I told her they would), I took over. It was in those days that the Reaper
was born.
> >The beggars had the temerity to tell me that I
> >had no right to prevent her learning the religion her mother professed.
>
> Sounds appropriate to me. If it was what you and your wife *both* agreed
to,
> that would be another matter.
It would but ... then ... I never stated that she couldn't learn about her
mother's religion only that the beggars not include her in their membership
stats or try to enlist her until she was 18. She indeed attended a few
Bahai Sunday Schools and is familiar with the basic precepts etc. and has,
of her own volition, decided not to join. Indeed she has a very low opinion
of BIGS in general and of one former one (Clue - it's not the old Reaper) in
particular.
Susan Maneck
>assented to the Lady Reaper handling it in her nice quiet Bahai way and when
>the beggars refused to properly withdraw the claim and apologise for it (as
>I told her they would), I took over.
Ahhh, then they should have removed her. In the US infants and children are
only placed on the rolls when parents submit their names for that purpose. If
it is the practice in N. Ireland to put them on automatically, that's okay if
the parents don't object. But then they should have taken her off without
squawking.On the other hand, I'm not sure they owed you an apology for adding
her in the first place.
warmest, Susan
Pat Kohli
Dermod Ryder wrote:
> "Pat Kohli" <kohliCUT...@ameritel.net> wrote in message
> news:4000CDA8...@ameritel.net...
> > Shunning of Covenant Breakers was described by 'Abdu'l Baha as an
> important part of
> > the faith.
> >
> > "And now, one of the greatest and most fundamental principles
> > of the Cause of God is to shun and avoid entirely the
> > Covenant-breakers, for they will utterly destroy the Cause of
> > God, exterminate His Law and render of no account all efforts
> > exerted in the past."
> > http://www.bahai-library.org/writings/abdulbaha/wt/2.html
>
> The dreaded W&T again?
It would answer the question.
> Is there no other literature from which to draw
> inspiration especially as this bit stands somewhat akin to the Shroud of
> Turin - partially scientifically examined and found wanting?
>
Have any of the texts attributed to 'Abdu'l Baha been forensically linked to him
or one of his secretaries, by an outside expert? Has the Kitabi Ahd, or any of
the texts attributed to Baha'u'llah been likewise subjected to external expert
testing? What about your comprehensive examinations at the Uni?
I'd had the impression that the Baha'is in general are satisfied that the "Will
and Testament" is what it appears to be, likewise the other texts attributed to
'Abdu'l Baha, likewise Baha'u'llah's will, and other texts, likewise your
comprehensives at the Uni.
Such testing would be appropriate if there were some basis for doubt, to
bolster, or discredit the authenticity of the documents. Having a fellow who is
unfamilar with a given script, much less the auther's hand, look over a
facsimile, was a meaningless exercise crafted to create doubt where none had
existed before. Given the circumstances, there was no basis for doubt in the
first place.
Best wishes!
>
> It has occurred to the AO, I have no doubt, that the definition of CBs might
> only refer to the participants in the Family Feud that is such a feature of
> the early days but acceptance of that would deprive them of a most
> efficacious defensive weapon.
>
To argue that the W&T is a forgery would deprive mainstream Baha'is of their
argument against the unitarians, who are now almost extinct, since it was the
"W&T" which explicitly shifted the succession away from Muhammad Ali.
>
> Sadly it is no longer an efficacious weapon.
It works for me.
> When evil, malign gits like me
> can talk and write, as we do, without the Grumpies being able to do anything
> to stop us, including bestowal of the honour of CBhood, don'tcha think it's
> about time you all dropped the crud and just quietly left this despicable
> practice where it belongs - on the dung heap of history?
I don't know what you are talking about. You're not evil; you're just a guy who
has his entertainment preferences, maybe he doesn't like what's on BBC. You say
what you say, and much of it is either your own opinion, or issues with
organized religion, expressed in criticising some particulars of the BF. Big
deal; the BF has to survive and thrive with folks having their entertainment at
our expense. The Prods have been amusing themselves with tales of
transubstantiation and maryology, for centuries.
Best wishes!
- Pat
Brid
> >
> >Jeffrey told us that his children were left hurt and bewildered by
> >people who had once shown them love and kindness turning into
> >'hate-filled monsters'.
>
> Dear Brid,
>
> I'm sure that is his perception. I doubt very much if that is what the Baha'is
> involved thought they were doing.
I've no problem in accepting his perception as perfectly valid. The
Baha'is who caused the temperature to drop 10 degrees when they met me
a month after my resignation thought that was associating with me in
joy and fragrance.
>
> >So Jeffrey's youngsters had inherited his spiritual disease overnight?
> >What an absurd notion!
>
> You are missing the point, Brid. Jeffrey would have tried to teach his personal
> beliefs to his children who would have in turn attempted to teach them to other
> Baha'is. That is what couldn't be allowed.
Dangerous child evangelists? I thought the right of a parent to pass
on their beliefs to the children was recognized as a basic human right
in the modern world. Don't Baha'is make a big song and dance about
human rights in their championship of the UN?
>
> As far as the posts from Shoghi Effendi, my point in posting those is to show
> the hypocrisy of someone who claims to accept his authority complaining about
> this and blaming it on the House of Justice. If you want to complain you have
> every right to. You don't accept the authority of either Shoghi Effendi or the
> House of Justice.
>
> warmest, Susan
>
I still do not understand how texts which appeared to relate
specifically to the families of Azal and Muhammad Ali can be applied
to Jeffrey's kids.
Brid
Pat Kohli
Brid wrote:
> sma...@aol.com (Susan Maneck ) wrote in message news:<20040110202815...@mb-m05.aol.com>...
> > >
> > >Jeffrey told us that his children were left hurt and bewildered by
> > >people who had once shown them love and kindness turning into
> > >'hate-filled monsters'.
> >
> > Dear Brid,
> >
> > I'm sure that is his perception. I doubt very much if that is what the Baha'is
> > involved thought they were doing.
>
> I've no problem in accepting his perception as perfectly valid. The
> Baha'is who caused the temperature to drop 10 degrees when they met me
> a month after my resignation thought that was associating with me in
> joy and fragrance.
>
> >
> > >So Jeffrey's youngsters had inherited his spiritual disease overnight?
> > >What an absurd notion!
> >
> > You are missing the point, Brid. Jeffrey would have tried to teach his personal
> > beliefs to his children who would have in turn attempted to teach them to other
> > Baha'is. That is what couldn't be allowed.
>
> Dangerous child evangelists? I thought the right of a parent to pass
> on their beliefs to the children was recognized as a basic human right
> in the modern world. Don't Baha'is make a big song and dance about
> human rights in their championship of the UN?
>
I wouldn't want to expel kids from a religious school simply because the parents had been declared Covenant
Breakers, but let's extend this principle for a moment, of parents being entitled to attempt to pass on
their beliefs to their children, a principle that I support. Suppose the parents exercise their right, and
teach their kids that the fundamental principle of the BF is the continuity of a living Guardian, that the
Hands and the House are CBs, who have duped the rest of the Baha'i world. That this mass of Baha'is is
"heterodox" and simply needs to be informed of the truth that Sewand So is the nth Guardian, and all will
be right with the BF.
Sunday comes round, and the kids are dropped off at the Baha'i school. Kids go to class. Teachers,
exercising the Socratic approach, ask the kids to each name one of the ten principles of the BF. Cathy,
the child of our schismatic Baha'i parents, raises her hand, confident she has the most important
principle, which her parents have been passing along Monday through Saturday, per the human parent
principle. Teacher calls on Cathy, and Cathy answers about the continuity of the living Guardian, that the
Hands and the House are CBs who've duped the global Baha'i community, that the mass of heterodox believers
need to be informed of this truth and accept Sewand So is the nth Guardian of the BF, and Cathy sits back
down. Teacher asks for other students to name the ten principles. The kids go home and tell their parents
about the new principle of the BF, the one they'd never heard before, that Sewand So is the nth Guardian of
the BF, etc.
So, Brid, is this principle still in effect, that parents have a chance to pass on their beliefs to their
children? Can this principle apply to parents who are mainstream Baha'is, also, and if not, why not? May
these Baha'is have a school to pass their beliefs on to their children?
Best wishes!
- Pat
kohli at ameritel.net
>
> >
Susan Maneck
>on their beliefs to the children was recognized as a basic human right
>in the modern world.
It is. So is the right to decide who your kid plays with.
>I still do not understand how texts which appeared to relate
>specifically to the families of Azal and Muhammad Ali can be applied
>to Jeffrey's kids.
Those texts lay out the principle that you don't associate with the children of
Covenant breakers if they at all share their parents attitude towards the Faith
and its leadership.
Susan Maneck
>I don't know what you are talking about. You're not evil
He's not evil, he's just baad.
Dermod Ryder
> So, Brid, is this principle still in effect, that parents have a chance to
pass on their beliefs to their
> children? Can this principle apply to parents who are mainstream Baha'is,
also, and if not, why not? May
> these Baha'is have a school to pass their beliefs on to their children?
What a splendid opportunity for kids to find out and why other people
believe in a different faith system, although one closely linked to the one
they are brought up in. You never learn something as well as when you are
directly exposed to it. So in a circumstance like this, as in
Protestant/Catholic differences, here is the chance to allow kids to explore
the situation for themselves. Of course you can teach them the old "Bahai
is united" crud and then, one day, they drop in here and find it just ain't
so! Now that's worse than finding out the truth about Santy Claus!
Just imagine if we kept the Doodlebug locked up and out of sight, her
cousins wouldn't learn, at first hand, to be kind to autistic kids. Their
parents don't teach them to shun!
Susan Maneck
>What a splendid opportunity for kids to find out and why other people
>believe in a different faith system,
If we wanted to present the Covenant breakers are merely an alternative
religious belief we might do that. But we don't.
Dermod Ryder
> >When they claimed my infant daughter was one of theirs I, reluctantly,
> >assented to the Lady Reaper handling it in her nice quiet Bahai way and
when
> >the beggars refused to properly withdraw the claim and apologise for it
(as
> >I told her they would), I took over.
>
> Ahhh, then they should have removed her. In the US infants and children
are
> only placed on the rolls when parents submit their names for that purpose.
If
> it is the practice in N. Ireland to put them on automatically, that's okay
if
> the parents don't object. But then they should have taken her off without
> squawking.On the other hand, I'm not sure they owed you an apology for
adding
> her in the first place.
They claimed her publicly in their "newssheet" - this "locality had 'x' BIGS
brats of which one was my daughter, who was not and never had been
registered. They were asked to correct their mistake and apologise for
making it. In the next edition but one the following was printed: -
"Our statistics which are forwarded to the National Office regularly, can
only be accurate if you send us the information and we apologise for any
mistakes that may have occured (sic). In particular would you please note
that there is only 1 Bahai child registered in Antrim."
This, of course, did not acknowledge that a mistake had been made - how
could that be as they're all bloody infallible. For historical interest
that was in 1983 - the Norn Iren community then consisted of 147 adults, 9
youth and 46 children for a total of 202. As of the 2001 Census there were
254 in the community - there have been very few declarations and more than a
few withdrawals since. So much for the dynamic growing religion of the 20th
Century!
At the time and since, the rule was that children were not registered unless
both parents consented. So neither of my daughters was registered - the
Doodlebug couldn't give a damn about them, not that she has actually ever
taken one of them under her notice (neither have they taken her under
notice) and the big one thinks that the BIGS are mainstream plonkers. Truly
she is a chip of the old block!
There was a more interesting aspect however. I asked for an undertaking, as
noted, and got the response that it could not be given as the NSA could not
bind its successors. The apology was eventually made in private, though not
until some of their blood was spilt and I didn't pursue the matter of the
undertaking - not my job to educate people who are *that* embryonic. It
would be easier to teach a tiger to eat grass.
Dermod Ryder
> >
> >What a splendid opportunity for kids to find out and why other people
> >believe in a different faith system,
>
> If we wanted to present the Covenant breakers are merely an alternative
> religious belief we might do that. But we don't.
Right on! You prefer to be nazi towards them. (Was that a typo? I don't
think so!)
>
Randy Burns
"Pat Kohli" <kohliCUT...@ameritel.net> wrote in message
news:4000CDA8...@ameritel.net...
>
> Shunning of Covenant Breakers was described by 'Abdu'l Baha as an
important part of
> the faith.
>
> "And now, one of the greatest and most fundamental principles
> of the Cause of God is to shun and avoid entirely the
> Covenant-breakers, for they will utterly destroy the Cause of
> God, exterminate His Law and render of no account all efforts
> exerted in the past."
> http://www.bahai-library.org/writings/abdulbaha/wt/2.html
>
Maybe so Pat, but if that is the case then why do we insist that we can have
cordial relations with them if they happen to be our neighbors, that we have
to wait on them if they walk into our store, that our children can go to
school politely with their children? I submit that this is not shunning and
that what Baha'is are called upon to do is not shunning either.
What Abdu'l-Baha wanted the Baha'is to do is to preserve the unity of the
Faith. Preserving the unity of the Faith is an important part of the Faith,
not shunning.
Yet when you see the way Baha'is actually act in real life, it appears that
someone is teaching them to hate these people and indeed to shun them in the
usual way of the term. Why is that? Hate is not an important part of the
Faith.
Cheers, Randy
Dermod Ryder
"Randy Burns" <randy....@gte.net> wrote in message
news:eOpMb.5812$et1....@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> Yet when you see the way Baha'is actually act in real life, it appears
that
> someone is teaching them to hate these people and indeed to shun them in
the
> usual way of the term. Why is that? Hate is not an important part of the
> Faith.
Hatred is a most important part of maintaining group identity and doctrinal
orthodoxy.
>
> Cheers, Randy
>
>
Dermod Ryder
> > > "And now, one of the greatest and most fundamental principles
> > > of the Cause of God is to shun and avoid entirely the
> > > Covenant-breakers, for they will utterly destroy the Cause of
> > > God, exterminate His Law and render of no account all efforts
> > > exerted in the past."
> > > http://www.bahai-library.org/writings/abdulbaha/wt/2.html
> >
> > The dreaded W&T again?
>
> It would answer the question.
Only for more impressionable minds.
> > Is there no other literature from which to draw
> > inspiration especially as this bit stands somewhat akin to the Shroud of
> > Turin - partially scientifically examined and found wanting?
> >
>
> Have any of the texts attributed to 'Abdu'l Baha been forensically linked
to him
> or one of his secretaries, by an outside expert?
I wouldn't knoe and neither would you.
> Has the Kitabi Ahd, or any of
> the texts attributed to Baha'u'llah been likewise subjected to external
expert
> testing?
Ditto.
> What about your comprehensive examinations at the Uni?
Indeed but of no relevance to the Mountains of Mourne as they sweep down to
the sea.
> I'd had the impression that the Baha'is in general are satisfied that the
"Will
> and Testament" is what it appears to be, likewise the other texts
attributed to
> 'Abdu'l Baha, likewise Baha'u'llah's will, and other texts,
I had the same impression but that has no bearing as to whether or not some
or all are the full shilling.
> likewise your
> comprehensives at the Uni.
Comprehensives come before and sometimes in lieu of Uni.
> Such testing would be appropriate if there were some basis for doubt, to
> bolster, or discredit the authenticity of the documents.
But there is in the case of the W&T. It has been queried by an expert in
the field of document analysis.
> Having a fellow who is
> unfamilar with a given script, much less the auther's hand, look over a
> facsimile, was a meaningless exercise crafted to create doubt where none
had
> existed before. Given the circumstances, there was no basis for doubt in
the
> first place.
You do not merely defame the dead but display ignorance of the principles
upon which such analysis is conducted. The trype of script little
matters -it's the technique which the expert looks at. All script is but
various shapes inscribed by a writing implement on paper. Each writer has
his own peculiarities as to the way he inscribes his shape and it is those
that the expert compares. The expert qualified his report that he could not
give a conclusive opinion without seeing the original to look at the paper
and the inks so, of course, Shoghi bluffed and blustered (as was his wont)
to make sure that the originals never saw the light of an analytical
laboratory. He pronounced amateur opinion with which to assert the
genuineness of the W&T.
Naturally the religion that maintains that religion and science should not
differ, accepted amateur uninformed opinion over that of the expert ... and
it has been doing that ever since. Well done!
Dermod Ryder
> >
> >I don't know what you are talking about. You're not evil
>
> He's not evil, he's just baad.
A typo? Methinks you are either trying to butter me up or inspire me to
reach fresh heights.
Susan Maneck
>A typo?
No, deliberate. I was trying to spell it the way it is pronounced in the
African-American community where it has a special meaning.
Dermod Ryder
> I don't know what you are talking about. You're not evil; you're just a
guy who
> has his entertainment preferences, maybe he doesn't like what's on BBC.
True! There's not a lot on the bos these days to bring even a wry smile to
the face - whereas here on TRB among the ever changing faces of Bahaidom,
which drop by for their daily punishment are all the comedic characters one
could hope to meet -
Father Dougal, Father Jack, Mr MacKay, Private Pike, Baldrick and even the
Vicar of Dibley.
> You say
> what you say, and much of it is either your own opinion,
It's mine ownopinion.
> or issues with
> organized religion, expressed in criticising some particulars of the BF.
The BF has little in common with common or garden everyday organised
religion - it's in a class of pretentious pomp and arrogance, all of its own
doing.
>Big
> deal; the BF has to survive and thrive with folks having their
entertainment at
> our expense.
So long as folks are getting their comedic entertainment from the BF and the
AO, you might survive but you won't thrive.
> The Prods have been amusing themselves with tales of
> transubstantiation and maryology, for centuries.
Well! You guys have got lots of similar nonsense to wrap your minds around.