Was Shoghi Effendi gay?
Freethought110
based on letters of the Afnan family and other firsthand accounts) and
Mildred Mottehedeh who confided to Michael Zargarov and several
others, Shoghi was a homosexual who struggled with his condition for
his whole lifetime. There have also been suggestions that George
Townsend was perhaps the one true love of Shoghi's life, and not as
popularly believed Mary Maxwell (aka Amatu'l-Baha Ruhiyyih Khanum).
Apparently among Ruhi Afnan's papers, there are several letters which
explicitly suggest Shoghi's homosexuality as early as his days in
Beirut, well before Ruhi and Soheil's expulsion at Shoghi's hands.
Perhaps these cousins were in fact expelled because they knew Shoghi's
dark secret.
Mildred Mottehedeh, who was quite close to the Rabbanis, had also
known about this. Perhaps the time has come to psycho-analyze the
"Guardian," reasses his ministry and examine his authoritarian style
of governance in light of his repressed homosexuality and unrequitted
love for George Townsend. After all, according some recent historical
findings, Adolf Hitler was a bisexual who struggled with his
effeminate ponceness and compensated it with political power and the
Will to Power (* Ernst Roehm, leader of the Brown Shirt SA, was an out
and out ponce). Perhaps a Nietzchean-Freudian probe into Shoghi's life
and writings is not that too far off in the horizon, not to mention
suggestions by Wombat Joey that one of the Persian Hands who was a
lifelong Shoghi devotee was himself also a closet homosexual.
Randy Burns
news:83b59396.03100...@posting.google.com...
> According to research done by Jackson Armstrong-Ingram (primarily
> based on letters of the Afnan family and other firsthand accounts) and
> Mildred Mottehedeh who confided to Michael Zargarov and several
> others, Shoghi was a homosexual who struggled with his condition for
> his whole lifetime. There have also been suggestions that George
> Townsend was perhaps the one true love of Shoghi's life, and not as
> popularly believed Mary Maxwell (aka Amatu'l-Baha Ruhiyyih Khanum).
Well, based solely on comments made by Ruhiyyih Khanum herself, there is no
reason to assume that she and Shoghi Effendi had a romantic relationship.
She herself tells how she was not allowed into the Guardian's bed because
half of his bed was made into a desk so that he could work all night.
> Apparently among Ruhi Afnan's papers, there are several letters which
> explicitly suggest Shoghi's homosexuality as early as his days in
> Beirut, well before Ruhi and Soheil's expulsion at Shoghi's hands.
> Perhaps these cousins were in fact expelled because they knew Shoghi's
> dark secret.
We have seen no physical evidence of this, nothing has been published to my
knowledge.
> Mildred Mottehedeh, who was quite close to the Rabbanis, had also
> known about this. Perhaps the time has come to psycho-analyze the
> "Guardian," reasses his ministry and examine his authoritarian style
> of governance in light of his repressed homosexuality and unrequitted
> love for George Townsend.
I suggested this some time ago. I explored the idea that Shoghi Effendi
might have suffered from bi-polar disease as well.
> After all, according some recent historical
> findings, Adolf Hitler was a bisexual who struggled with his
> effeminate ponceness and compensated it with political power and the
> Will to Power (* Ernst Roehm, leader of the Brown Shirt SA, was an out
> and out ponce). Perhaps a Nietzchean-Freudian probe into Shoghi's life
> and writings is not that too far off in the horizon, not to mention
> suggestions by Wombat Joey that one of the Persian Hands who was a
> lifelong Shoghi devotee was himself also a closet homosexual.
A thankless task.
Cheers, Randy
Cal E. Rollins
You're both shameless. Randy, you've an excuse since you're an
American, but Nima has none. Americans are suppose to be inquisitive
and irreverent, but Persians are not supposed to be--according to what I
learned growing up as a Baha'i. Of course, as a result of this learning
I always felt out-of-synch with my bretheren and sisteren in the
Lord--both Christian and Baha'--because I wanted to be like the
Persians.
When I gave my first public fireside when I was 19 at Ruth Moffet's
house, it was crashed by two grumpy Persians (I later found out
disgruntled Afnan) saying some of the same things about the Guardian in
Oxford. She summarily threw them out, but not quick enough for my
delicate and innocent mind not to compute, though analysis would take
years.
Those years passed and Ruth came to stay in my house on the reservation
for two long and dusty weeks. I did dig around in her mind and her
pilgrim's notes and other works in all manner of disarray. And if you
look at those notes on Internet she did allude to some of these things
in her observations, although she wrote and rewrote becoming more
restrained, I'm glad to say.
She loved the Guardian dearly and helped me to appreciate what a
sacrifice he made for the Faith and the tremendous work he did until the
very end of his life. --Cal
Freethought110
> We have seen no physical evidence of this, nothing has been published to my
> knowledge.
I have. See Jackson. He's in possession of some of these letters. They
will make you salivate.
Ned Byrne
"Freethought110" <freetho...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:83b59396.03100...@posting.google.com...
Unlikely! I'm not gay.
Regards
Ned
Susan Maneck
>reason to assume that she and Shoghi Effendi had a romantic relationship.
Randy,
On the contrary. One person I knew who was close to Ruhiyyih Khanum said she
once mentioned that Shoghi Effendi was 'all man' and then wiggled her hips in
such a way as to leave no doubt what she was talking about. Frankly, I'm much
more inclined to believe my own source that what some Covenant breaker says
Mildred Mottahedeh said.
As for their sleeping in seperate beds this is not at all unusual for married
couples in the Middle East. Usually the man goes to the woman's bed.
>I suggested this some time ago. I explored the idea that Shoghi Effendi
>might have suffered from bi-polar disease as well.
Yeah, you'll go way out of your way to prove that there was something wrong
with the Guardian wouldn't you? And if you can't find it, you just make it up!
Susan
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st
Randy Burns
Cheers, Randy
--
"Susan Maneck " <sma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031008014525...@mb-m16.aol.com...
Darrick Evenson
Jackson Armstrong-Ingram, who is gay and has a "gay agenda" for the
Baha'i Faith. Some gay scholars believe Paul was "gay"; because he did
not marry and said he had an "thorn" in his side. But Paul strongly
condemned homosexuality, as did Shoghi Effendi.
Darrick Evenson
freetho...@yahoo.com (Freethought110) wrote in message news:<83b59396.03100...@posting.google.com>...
Susan Maneck
>Wasn't that story also from Mildred?
No, I heard from a man who lived in Haifa for about fifteen years. He now lives
in your neck of the woods. I also know that Ruhiyyih Khanum once told a youth
gathering of about 30 people that lest anyone believe the lack of an heir was
due to any sexual problem, "Shoghi Effendi knew exactly what to do in bed."
Freethought110
darrick...@yahoo.com (Darrick Evenson) wrote in message news:<4ac0bf57.03100...@posting.google.com>...
Freethought110
> >
> >Wasn't that story also from Mildred?
>
> No, I heard from a man who lived in Haifa for about fifteen years.
Richard Hollinger. Jackson and Richard had a back and forth on this
issue and Jackson's evidence was clearly far stronger than Richard's
story about Ruhiyyih wiggling her hips.
> He now lives
> in your neck of the woods. I also know that Ruhiyyih Khanum once told a youth
> gathering of about 30 people that lest anyone believe the lack of an heir was
> due to any sexual problem, "Shoghi Effendi knew exactly what to do in bed."
Of course she would say that. What? She was going to come right out
and spill the beans about Shoghi really being gay. Ruhi Afnan
suggested Shoghi was gay long before Mildred Mottehedeh said anything
to Michael Zargarov. Ruhi would know since he was Shoghi's cousin.
Cal E. Rollins
That's a dumb story or support for anything. All men know what to do in
bed, although lots of women don't. So doing whatever in bed is no proof
of sexual preference. --Cal
Darrick Evenson
Darrick Evenson
Darrick Evenson
Darrick Evenson
Darrick Evenson
Susan Maneck
>Call it a lucky guess.
>
Wow. Five lucky guesses in a row!
Sufi Baha'i
accusations start to hit to close to home. My aunt did almost the
same thing when her husband was accused of being gay. This rather
stately older woman made several rather crude references to my uncle's
sexual prowess. She made jestures, said that he rooted like a horse,
etc.
This was just about a month before he ran off with a fellow named
Bruce....
sma...@aol.com (Susan Maneck ) wrote in message news:<20031008234028...@mb-m02.aol.com>...
> >
Randy Burns
red herring, as most gay men have no problem fathering children. The
question thus may has some importance in relation to some of the Guardian's
interpretations but probably none relating to the succession of the
Guardianship.
Cheers, Randy
--
"Sufi Baha'i" <pe...@capebyron.com> wrote in message
news:189ac3e8.03102...@posting.google.com...
Cal E. Rollins
What do you mean "in relationship to interpretations" of the Guardian
but not to successorship? --Cal
Susan Maneck
>Actually I have to consider the question of Shoghi Effendi being gay as a
>red herring, as most gay men have no problem fathering children.
It's a red herring period, and a malcious slander as well.
Cal E. Rollins
Please explain why do you think it's a red-herring? --Cal
Sufi Baha'i
and Ruhiyyah Khanum had sex exactly once, on their wedding night, to
make the marriage "official."
Shoghi Effendi slept in his own room afterwards. He suffered from
stress, the stress made him, like Pele, suffer from impotentency.
They really weren't interested in sex, but rather in translation and
planning and organising. Ruhiyyah Khanum had many pets to take the
place of children.
Their is an interesting quotation by SHoghi Effendi, where he states,
basically, if a couple try to have sex and fail, they have satisfied
the requirement in spirit and thus in fact, it feels personal, it feel
like it comes from experience.
You didn't finish the quote, it actually goes, "Shoghi Effendi knew
exactly what to do in bed, work!"
"Randy Burns" <randy....@gte.net> wrote in message news:<03jlb.49723$mp1....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>...
Susan Maneck
>The story, from the mouth of Mrs. Nakjavani, is that Shoghi Effendi
>and Ruhiyyah Khanum had sex exactly once, on their wedding night, to
>make the marriage "official."
Dear Sufi,
You heard Mrs. Nakhjavani say this? Or do you have an isnad? Fortunately, she
is still alive and I can ask her.
>Their is an interesting quotation by SHoghi Effendi, where he states,
>basically, if a couple try to have sex and fail, they have satisfied
>the requirement in spirit and thus in fact, it feels personal, it feel
>like it comes from experience.
Please post that quote here, along with the source.
warmest, Susan
Cal E. Rollins
Speaking of pets. Does anybody have that old copy of a book by Marcus
Bach where he interviews Ruhiyyih Khanum? I long ago lost it. Was there
something in there about her coming into the interview room in a fur
coat and being led by an Afghan hound and smoking a cigarette in a long
holder? Don't laugh. I know I've got a vivid imagination and may even
hallucinate at times, but that image keeps coming back to me as
something I read by Bach. Can somebody check it out? --Cal
Randy Burns
confusing our Ruhiyyih with the Duchess of Windsor?
Cheers, Randy
--
"Cal E. Rollins" <crol...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:13922-3F...@storefull-2338.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Susan Maneck
>> Bach where he interviews Ruhiyyih Khanum?
Cal,
He interviewed the Guardian, not Ruhiyyih Khanum. I have the book somewhere. I
think he did meet her, and I do remember something about a fur coat. I odn't
remember anything about a cigarette or a dog. And the cigarette would have
stuck out in my mind.
I'll check the book when I get a chance.
Cal E. Rollins
I remember the story from somewhere about the Afghan hound, because I
had one named Farouk after one of the daughters of one of our
illustrious Baha'is. She was very sleek and incredibly elegant and
haughty. I just couldn't image the Ruhiyyih Khanum I knew with one in
tow. And certainly not wearing a fur and toting a long cigarette holder
and people calling her Madame Rabbani. I do vaguely remember being
pissed at Bach or somebody. Sufi's mention of pets brought that dim
memory back. If you do find anything, let me know. --Cal
Cal E. Rollins
Yes. Now that I think on it, Bach was supposed to have talked with the
Guardian but he talked with Ruhiyyih Khanum instead so that was how he
came to describe her--fur coat, cigarette, dog, etc. Was it in Circle
of Faith? As I recall Father Divine was in the book, too. I remember
him because my Grandmother was an erstwhile member of Divine's Kingdom
in Philadelphia, and he had a white wife from Canada named Mary also.
He claimed she was the Spotless Virgin which gave my sceptical family a
real kick.
I'd love to re-visit whatever book that was. Let me know Randy if you
can get it for me in your stock. --Cal
Steve Marshall
>Speaking of pets. Does anybody have that old copy of a book by Marcus
>Bach where he interviews Ruhiyyih Khanum? I long ago lost it. Was there
>something in there about her coming into the interview room in a fur
>coat and being led by an Afghan hound and smoking a cigarette in a long
>holder?
Here's an extract from the book - it mentions a shaggy lovable dog, a
fur stole, but no cigarette:
While I was visualizing these things and while Miss Revell was telling
me how marvelously the Bahá'í faith recommended itself for our time,
the door opened and a trim, attractive woman entered, suddenly and
unannounced. She had a dog on a leash, a fur stole around her neck,
and she walked like a Persian queen. Only she was American, at least
I thought she was, and the piquancy with which she came in must have
pleased or shocked the spirits of the old prophets who haunted the
mansion room.
She made herself comfortable in a chair and said, "So. Tell me about
yourself. You are interested in religions. What have you found in
all this searching?
This was a surprise approach. Most Baha'is started out by telling me
what they had found. Generally their aim was to convince me at once of
the worth of the Cause. What kind of a zealot was this who invited me
to present my case?
I reviewed the list of groups that had come under my study and when I
explained that there always seemed to be to be a greater common ground
for understanding than for differences, she voiced her agreement.
"Religions," she said, "are not parallel lines. They are bound to
meet. Each is the expression of something vital that people have found
in their search.
As she went on in this vein, she still made no mention of the Bahá'í
or of Bahá'u'lláh or of the Guardian. Who was this woman and why did
not Miss Revell introduce me? Perhaps she didn't have a chance, for
the stranger was weaving a mood that did not admit of any rude
intrusion.
"Each faith draws upon the inner well of experience," she mused. "In
each there is something beautiful and disciplined and prophetic. The
great religions are leaves of the same tree. The thinking person can
and must find harmony among all true prophets and unity in all true
scriptures."
She talked as though time and conversation were intended for the
deepening of knowledge and faith. And I noticed another thing: she
spoke in the lyrical, poetic style of Bahá'u'lláh himself, and it was
diffcult to tell which thoughts were hers and which were his. It was
Bahá'í philosophy to be sure, but it was presented as though it were
her own.
"You know," she was saying, "a believer in the Unity of God must
recognize in every created thing the evidence of the revelation of
God. The creature is not indistinguishable from the Creator. Those
who recognize the Unity of God are the primary revealers of God."
How we got so swiftly from my research into her discovery, I never
quite knew. I think it must have been the fault of the dog. He was a
shaggy, loveable fellow and somewhere along the way I commented on
him. I think it was then she said something about feeling and
sensitivity being the hallmarks of living matter and how much higher
these qualities should be in human beings than in dogs. The greater
the person, the more he should realize that he does not stand alone;
that he draws upon the hidden resources of the spirit.
At some length she expounded the benefits to be derived by people who
face the burdens and blows of life, for these can change weaklings
into persons of strength. She believed, also, that this principle of
rigorous discipline applies in the animal world. Her dog, now, she
was sure, would be much better behaved had she been less lenient in
her training of him.
Then she spoke of life's joy and triumphs, and of what happens to the
individual when God becomes real to him, and he enters the orb of
spiritual experience. The quest kindles the fire; faith lights it.
She touched on many other things of a similar nature, such as sorrow
and suffering, which seemed to her to be part of the spiritual
process. Of suffering she said, "I do not know the why of it, but I
know that every time I have suffered I have grown in spirit and felt
refined."
It was during one of these rapidly paced impressions, when I felt the
spirits of the prophets had turned the tables on me and were using her
as their mouthpiece, that I said, "I hope I'm not being too
inquisitive, but with whom do I have the honor of visiting?"
"Oh," she said with a slight laugh, while her hand gently stroked the
dog's head, "my history is brief. I was born in Canada. My people
were Bahá'ís and a few years ago it was my great privilege to become
the wife of the Guardian."
I was frankly surprised and felt moved to exclaim, I didn't know the
Guardian was married. How does all his reputed greatness seem to you,
his wife? Why is it that in Bahá'í circles we do not hear more about
you? Instead, I merely said, "I am very happy to meet you."
"Thank you," was the gracious reply. "We shall be together at dinner
in a little while."
Then she went out, taking the dog with her for a walk.
Cal E. Rollins
Fabulous! You, like Errol9, can be counted upon to find the good stuff.
Nothing about an Afghan hound or a cigarette in a 30s holder? Drat.
Maybe that shows how rumors get started? A core of truth but little
bits of augmentation or decoration to spruce up the truth. Does it say
in there what kind of a dog it was? Thank Allah I didn't say she was
lead in by a team of Huskies or a leopard. Did Ruhiyyih Khanum smoke?
Could I have been mixing her up with my mother who did? What kind of
fur was she wearing, do you think? I'm reminded of my poem, "Those
Dames" below. Is it conceivable that Bach made some of that stuff up?
What does he say about the Guardian? Balyuzi in his bibliography of
stuff on the Faith says Bach didn't say much about the Guardian, but he
didn't say he said anything about the Khanum that I could see. That's
why I was beginning to think I was having senior moment in total.
Is the book on Internet? --Cal
Those Dames
Paris
Av. Foch
At one time in cruel
Haiti they wore paper hats
and mink and chincilla
for their obscene,
refrigerated parties.
No sweat under elegant
gowns or armpits; not an
ounce of fat fried in temps
110 degrees (Fahrenheit).
Off in the kitchen, maids
and butlers huddled in blankets.
Their nails were blue handling
crystal goblets and peddling
Beluga caviar to golden odalisques.
Somewhere in another world
the aging exotic chanteuse
of a silken demi-monde
stores shoes grand enough
to make French Marie
sigh for in vain had she the head
for it. But her shoes do nothing for me.
Dusky girls of Paris, I gaze
at your windows of exile; you pass
high above me and trail your coats
on the parquet of my heart.
Cal E. Rollins
EXILES IN BLACK