Mirza Aqa Jan rejected Abdul baha. Re: Johannine Prologue
Baldrick
d_gr...@hotmail.com wrote on 10/7/04 12:08 am:
> Dear Baldrick,
>
>>> Miller doesn't interest me. I am not used to having an adversarial
>>> relationship with Christians. I wísh neither to be viewed or view
others
> as
>>> adversaries. I would rather that people viewed my as a neighbor.
Would
> you
>>> not?
>>
>> I am sorry to say this Daniel but Baha'is will nearly always have
an
>> adversarial relationship with true Christians if you begin a
>> discussion over biblical and theological doctrinal matters once
>> Christians find out that Baha'i belief in Christ opposes christian
>> belief on a number of important issues. Namely the incarnation, the
>> trinity and the physical resurrection. Bahai opposition to these
three
>> (MOST IMPORTANT) christian doctrinal issues cherished by true
>> Christians have been refuted time & time again since the coming of
>> Islam and the Prophet Muhammad in 622.
>
> Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and heard them questioning
> together, and knowing that he had answered them well, asked him, What
> commandment is the first of all?
> 29 Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord
> is one:
> 30 and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all
> thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength.
> 31 The second is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is
> none other commandment greater than these.
> 32 And the scribe said unto him, Of a truth, Teacher, thou hast well said
> that he is one; and there is none other but he:
> 33 and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and
> with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is much more
> than all whole burnt-offerings and sacrifices.
> 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou
> art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any
> question.
>
> It seems to me that Jesus' command would have us look for other ways to
> relate to each others and not let a divergence of views on theological
> matters move us to take up adversarialism.
With respect Daniel
But when a Bahai starts reciting verses from the Holy Bible warning
alarm bells begin to ring in my head. Jesus said "false Christs and
false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, as so to
mislead, if possible, even the elect" (Matthew 24:24). Having resigned
my membership after 13 years I now believe Baha'u'llah is a false
Christ and a false prophet and Baha'u'llah's doctrines are false
doctrines. Bahai Love bombing through neighbourly false friendships
is one method Bahai's use to deceive newcomers into trusting Bahai's
as nice honest people. Unfortunately The bahai writings are not
honest.teachings or doctrines. Here is an example of Bahaism false
teaching in America. http://www.stonehaven-press.com/index.htm
Thanks to Dr Maneck for introducing me to this website on Bahai
studies.
Since resigning my membership in 2002 I have been accused by Bahais &
their friends on TRB of ignorance about the Bahai writings, and not
reading enough. Well If I was ignorant so was Mirza Aqa Jan, and he
wrote the writings, yet he became a covenant breaker. "Mirza Aqa Jan.
was the amanuensis (secretary or scribe) of Bahá'u'lláh, and served
him for 40 years. He met Bahá'u'lláh at the age of 16, and was among
the first to be aware of Bahá'u'lláh's station as Manifestation of
God. Mirza Aqa Jan was honored to be present during the Revelations,
and is described as writing so rapidly that the sound of the pen was
shrill, and the ink was not dry when the page was completed. He is
credited for recording and preserving many of the Writings, but after
Bahá'u'lláh's death, he did not support the Covenant and turned
against Abdul Baha; he died in 1901."
Historical Personages Related to Early Tablets
http://www.bahai-library.com/visuals/timeline.people.html
Baldrick
Daniel Grolin
"Baldrick" <baldri...@yahoo.co.uk> skrev i en meddelelse
news:9b91a665.04071...@posting.google.com...
So I have noticed. So in conclusion: If I quote the Bible you assume that I
am misrepresenting Scripture. If I quote Baha'i scripture it has neither
meaning nor authority. In other words, nothing I say is worthy of your
consideration.
> Jesus said "false Christs and
> false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, as so to
> mislead, if possible, even the elect" (Matthew 24:24).
I am neither proposing to be Christ or a prophet and my writings are hardly
miraculous.
> Having resigned
> my membership after 13 years I now believe Baha'u'llah is a false
> Christ and a false prophet and Baha'u'llah's doctrines are false
> doctrines.
So you keep saying, but you are unwilling to listen to anything I might have
to say, so why are you here? Is it just to proclaim your disbelief?
Regards,
Daniel
Matt Menge
>
> But when a Bahai starts reciting verses from the Holy Bible warning
> alarm bells begin to ring in my head. Jesus said "false Christs and
> false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, as so to
> mislead, if possible, even the elect" (Matthew 24:24).
What Christians forget is that there is a hidden message here.
Implicit in these statements is that there would be true Christs and
true Prophets. Otherwise Jesus would have simply said, "After Me,
don't follow anyone".
Having resigned
> my membership after 13 years I now believe Baha'u'llah is a false
> Christ and a false prophet and Baha'u'llah's doctrines are false
> doctrines. Bahai Love bombing through neighbourly false friendships
> is one method Bahai's use to deceive newcomers into trusting Bahai's
> as nice honest people.
Apparently being nice is just out of style these days...
Unfortunately The bahai writings are not
> honest.teachings or doctrines. Here is an example of Bahaism false
> teaching in America. http://www.stonehaven-press.com/index.htm
> Thanks to Dr Maneck for introducing me to this website on Bahai
> studies.
>
> Since resigning my membership in 2002 I have been accused by Bahais &
> their friends on TRB of ignorance about the Bahai writings, and not
> reading enough.
Its anybody's guess really. Personally, I think it has a lot more to
do with your heart than your head. You seem to have this almost
obsessive hatred of Islam. You also seem to be fascinated with the
sheer multitude of Christians, as if the fact that there are lots of
Christians somehow makes them right.
> Well If I was ignorant so was Mirza Aqa Jan, and he
> wrote the writings, yet he became a covenant breaker. "Mirza Aqa Jan.
> was the amanuensis (secretary or scribe) of Bahá'u'lláh, and served
> him for 40 years. He met Bahá'u'lláh at the age of 16, and was among
> the first to be aware of Bahá'u'lláh's station as Manifestation of
> God. Mirza Aqa Jan was honored to be present during the Revelations,
> and is described as writing so rapidly that the sound of the pen was
> shrill, and the ink was not dry when the page was completed. He is
> credited for recording and preserving many of the Writings, but after
> Bahá'u'lláh's death, he did not support the Covenant and turned
> against Abdul Baha; he died in 1901."
So did he renounce his belief in Baha'u'llah? Quite a few
Covenant-breakers never did, you know.
Best Regards,
Matt
Freethought110
Above is Khadim'ullah's personal account a short time before his
suspicious death.
The majority of Husayn Ali's so called "apostles" eventually rejected
Abbas Effendi. Khadimullah was the most important one among them
because he was Husayn Ali's so called first believer (awwal man amana)
and amanuensis (katib) from the Baghdad period all the way to the Acre
period. In fact Khadim'ullah was the real power behind the throne of
Husayn Ali and it was through his machinations whereby Husayn Ali
found the cahones to make his stake against the Eternal Fruit. As
suggested by Miller, Kirmani and others there is no doubt Khadim'ullah
was murdered by the partisans of Abbas Effendi. Nabil Zarandi was
another and contrary to the violin story baha'i hagiographies have
manufactured about Nabil's so called suicide, Nabil was actually
murdered on the direct orders of Abbas Effendi and his body dumped in
the Mediterranean because 1) he was making a claim of some sort for
himself right after Husayn Ali's death (see 8 Heavens where Mirza Aqa
Khan Kirmani explicitly states this as well as two unpublished
histories by one of ths sons of Muhammad Ali where he states this
also) and 2) the latter chapters of the manuscript of his narrative,
which the baha'is won't allow anyone to see. In these latter chapters
Nabil explicitly lauds Mirza Muhammad Ali and his station and states
that Muhammad Ali is the highest in station among Husayn Ali's two
sons, ergo one among the countless reasons why the 10,000 page
original manuscript of this work is kept under the tighest security on
Mt Demon in Zionistan. Once again this shows that the histories of
baha'ism are the biggest frauds perpetrated on history. Now if the
ao-holes wish to prove me wrong, they will immediately release to the
following two individuals the entire, unadulterated 10,000 pages in
folio manuscript of Nabil's history ASAP: Juan Cole and John
Walbridge, and any other bona fide historian of the Babi movement and
baha'i cult such as Ahang Rabbani.
Nima
baldri...@yahoo.co.uk (Baldrick) wrote in message news:<9b91a665.04071...@posting.google.com>...
Baldrick
at mspm...@msn.com wrote on 10/7/04 10:15 pm:
> baldri...@yahoo.co.uk (Baldrick) wrote in message
>> With respect Daniel
>>
>> But when a Bahai starts reciting verses from the Holy Bible warning
>> alarm bells begin to ring in my head. Jesus said "false Christs and
>> false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, as so
to
>> mislead, if possible, even the elect" (Matthew 24:24).
>
> What Christians forget is that there is a hidden message here.
> Implicit in these statements is that there would be true Christs and
> true Prophets. Otherwise Jesus would have simply said, "After Me,
> don't follow anyone".
Matt
There is no verse in the New Testament to say that any other prophet
is to come until the second coming of Christ . Baha'is and Muslims
misinterpret the word *COMFORTER* in the following four verses to
represent the coming of the Prophet Muhammad. This is nonsense
COMFORTER means the HOLY GHOST. Read 2nd verse enclosed.
John 14-16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another
Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.
John 14-26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father
will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all
things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15 26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto
you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from
the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 16-7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you
that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto
you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
The above four verses come from a Bible translation recommended by
Trueseeker http://www.ibiblio.org/Bahai/Texts/EN/bible.html
During my 13 years as a Bahai I could never get one bahai to show me
any verses in the Bible to prove the coming of the Bahai Twin
Manifestations. It tells us in the Book of Revelation that Christ
doesn't return untill the tribulation is completely over and the
seventh or last trumpet is sounded. It is when this final trumpet is
blown that the 7 year tribulation period is over and it is only then
that Jesus Christ comes back for his Saints and begins his rule over
this earthly kingdom. Look at the following verse and ask yourself
does this explanation refer to the Bahai twin manifestations the Bab &
Baha'u'llah?
Matthew 24:29-30 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days
the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and
the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will
be shaken, and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky,
and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the
Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great
glory".
Baldrick
Matt Menge
>
>There is no verse in the New Testament to say that any other prophet
>is to come until the second coming of Christ.
That shouldn't really be a problem because Baha'u'llah states quite
plainly that He is the Second (at least) Coming of Christ.
>>Baha'is and Muslims
misinterpret the word *COMFORTER* in the following four verses to
represent the coming of the Prophet Muhammad. This is nonsense
COMFORTER means the HOLY GHOST. Read 2nd verse enclosed.
Apparently you are not familiar with the concept of the Trinity.
>>John 14-16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another
Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.
Notice the word "another". Jesus is the first Comforter. Second,
Jesus cannot "send" the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has always
existed on earth, only the intensity with which it has manifested
itself has varied according to the age. The word "spirit" in Hebrew
is the same as the word for "wind". As such, the term even appears in
the first few verses of Genesis. What next, is Jesus going to send us
"the" oxygen? How about sending us some ground so we have something
to walk on?
>>John 14-26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the
Father
will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all
things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
>>John 15 26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto
you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from
the Father, he shall testify of me:
>>John 16-7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for
you
that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto
you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Presumably at Pentecost, I guess. The problem is again that at this
point the Holy Spirit has already been around for quite a long time.
There is no need for Jesus to "send" it.
There is also the problem that this suggests that Holy Spirit was
entirely absent from the Apostles before Pentecost. I would contest
that this is also not true. It was absent during the crucifixion
period up until the resurrection, but not before the crucifixion
period. Remember that before this the Disciples were walking on
water, curing the sick, doing all sorts of things. They had the Holy
Spirit.
>> Look at the following verse and ask yourself
>>does this explanation refer to the Bahai twin manifestations the Bab
&
>>Baha'u'llah?
>>
>>Matthew 24:29-30 "But immediately after the tribulation of those
days
>>the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and
>>the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will
>>be shaken, and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the
sky,
>>and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see
the
>>Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great
>>glory".
Probably because this passage really applies to the coming of any
Manifestation of God, not just Baha'u'llah or the Bab. It is really
about the coming of Muhammad too. The Muslims just didn't get it.
That was one of the major points of the Kitab-i-Iqan.
In fact as I already noted there is a prophecy of Joel about the
Messiah (Jesus) that is very similar to this as well.
We really no very little about what Jesus did and taught. I hardly
find it shocking that something is 'missing' from the Gospels.
Best Regards,
Matt
Matt Menge
> COMFORTER means the HOLY GHOST. Read 2nd verse enclosed.
>
Apparently I have insomnia so I will continue on this subject. I
believe Jesus identifies the Comforter with all three aspects of the
Trinity, the Father (God, in this case), the Son (the Manifestation),
and the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit. The first instance is already
demonstrated by your first quote.
> John 14-16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another
> Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.
By "another" is presumably meant similar to Jesus. The Comforter is
identified with the Son in the Trinity.
>
> John 14-26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father
> will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all
> things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
>
The Comforter is identified with the Holy Ghost in the Trinity.
John 16:13-15 ...for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he
shall hear that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
He shall glorify me for: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew
it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine; therefore said
I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
That is, the Comforter represents God.
I had already mentioned the logical implausibility of Jesus "sending"
the Holy Spirit when the Holy Spirit has existed in the world since
the beginning of time. There are two more problems:
1: Jesus charges the Comforter with a specific mission in John
16:8-13. This is not really something you would expect from some sort
of whispy, ephemeral spirit.
2: There is a problem with the interpretation of John 14:16-18. For
example Jesus says that His disciples already "know" the Spirit of
Truth "for he dwelleth with you and shall be in you", but He hasn't
sent the Spirit of Truth yet! The only good explanation for this is
Baha'u'llah's, namely that the Comforter and the Second Coming are one
and the same thing. The Disciples "know" the Spirit of Truth because
He is, in spirit, the same as Jesus. This same idea is reinforced by
14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you".
Obviously, this was not fulfilled at Pentecost, by the mere presence
of a spirit.
Regards,
Matt
Matt Menge
> During my 13 years as a Bahai I could never get one bahai to show me
> any verses in the Bible to prove the coming of the Bahai Twin
> Manifestations.
I would suggest that instead of looking for things in two's, maybe you
should look for things in three's. Jesus falls three times. He is
resurrected on the third day. Peter denies Jesus three times. There
are even three woes (not two) in the Book of Revelation.
It tells us in the Book of Revelation that Christ
> doesn't return untill the tribulation is completely over and the
> seventh or last trumpet is sounded. It is when this final trumpet is
> blown that the 7 year tribulation period is over and it is only then
> that Jesus Christ comes back for his Saints and begins his rule over
> this earthly kingdom.
The Book of Revelation is a complicated subject. For one thing, Dr.
Alan Clark asserts that it tends to revisit certain historical events
more than once. Clark has a running commentary on the Book of
Revelation from a Baha'i perspective. It is sitting right here beside
me. I'd rather not go into it, but if you really want to...
Regards,
Matt
Baldrick
You are correct, the comforter (THE HOLY GHOST) is the third part of
the Trinity. But you are incorrect that the comforter is a prophesy
to do with the coming of Muhammad, the Bab or Baha'u'llah.
"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost....... John 14.26
I will explain.
No1) In traditional Christianity When a Christian child is baptised
they are blessed in the name of the Father, the Son and the HOLY
GHOST. Salvation is by the grace. The comforter is the HOLY GHOST in
that Christian so long as they continue to believe in Christ, and
practice their religious duties throughout their lives.
No 2) In evangelical Christianity salvation is by faith in Christ,
called (Being reborn or Saved) Many churches practice adult full
immersion baptisim following in the footsteps of being baptised like
John the Bapist. carried out. The comforter (like as in No1) is the
HOLY GHOST so long the Christian continues to believe Christ is their
personal saviour and practice their religious duties through out their
lives.
These two simple examples could be elaborated on more, but I am only
defining the meaning of word COMFORTER to Christians They believe the
*COMFORTER * Holy Ghost is within them. "But if the Spirit of Him
that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up
Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His
Spirit that dwelleth in you." (Romans 8:11 KJV)
This has nothing to do with the Bahai/Islamic belief that the second
coming was Muhammad 622, Bab 1844 or Baha'u'llah 1853-63.
Matt, There is ample evidence in the Gospels that Jesus did indeed
come ) in the first century. He came in His kingdom (Matt. 16:28)
with power (Mk. 9:1) on the day of Pentecost (Acts 1:4-5, 8; 2:1-4,
33). Now, look how Jesus described the sending of the promised
Comforter (the Holy Ghost) in John 14:18: "I come unto you." Surely no
one will conclude that this must mean a bodily coming of Jesus! How
would He come? Not bodily, but representatively, through the Holy
Spirit whom He would send (Jno. 15:26). Again, in Matthew 24:29-30,
Jesus taught that during that generation (24:34) "they shall see the
Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
The context of Matthew 24 tells us how they would see Him. The context
of the chapter is the destruction of Jerusalem. Unquestionably, Jesus
did not appear bodily in 70 A.D. when Jerusalem fell. Instead, Matthew
24:30 speaks of His presence in Jerusalem's judgment. He authorized
it, and brought it to pass (cf. Isa. 19:1). They would see or discern
His presence when this destructive judgment occurred. Jesus Christ
came in judgment in 70 A.D., but it was not His bodily return. Similar
language is used to describe His coming in judgment against the powers
persecuting the saints in Revelation 1:7 (cf. Rev. 19:11-21). None of
these "comings" of the Lord prevent a future SECOND COMING of Christ
in bodily form at the end of time.
Matt, when Christ returns (THE SECOND COMING) he is not coming as a
COMFORTER this time but as a JUDGE "I charge thee therefore before
God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, Who shall judge the quick and the dead
at His appearing and His Kingdom" (2 Timothy 4:1 KJV)
Baldrick
in article 9b91a665.04071...@posting.google.com, Baldrick
at baldri...@yahoo.co.uk wrote on 11/7/04 12:30 am:
> in article dc19cfc5.04071...@posting.google.com, Matt Menge
> at mspm...@msn.com wrote on 10/7/04 10:15 pm:
>
>> baldri...@yahoo.co.uk (Baldrick) wrote in message
>>> With respect Daniel
>>>
>>> But when a Bahai starts reciting verses from the Holy Bible
warning
>>> alarm bells begin to ring in my head. Jesus said "false Christs
and
>>> false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, as so
> to
>>> mislead, if possible, even the elect" (Matthew 24:24).
>>
>> What Christians forget is that there is a hidden message here.
>> Implicit in these statements is that there would be true Christs
and
>> true Prophets. Otherwise Jesus would have simply said, "After Me,
>> don't follow anyone".
>
> Matt
>
> There is no verse in the New Testament to say that any other prophet
> is to come until the second coming of Christ . Baha'is and Muslims
> misinterpret the word *COMFORTER* in the following four verses to
> represent the coming of the Prophet Muhammad. This is nonsense
> COMFORTER means the HOLY GHOST. Read 2nd verse enclosed.
>
> John 14-16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another
> Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.
>
> John 14-26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father
> will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all
> things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
>
> John 15 26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto
> you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from
> the Father, he shall testify of me:
>
> John 16-7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you
> that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto
> you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
>
> The above four verses come from a Bible translation recommended by
> Trueseeker http://www.ibiblio.org/Bahai/Texts/EN/bible.html
>
> During my 13 years as a Bahai I could never get one bahai to show me
> any verses in the Bible to prove the coming of the Bahai Twin
> Manifestations. It tells us in the Book of Revelation that Christ
> doesn't return untill the tribulation is completely over and the
> seventh or last trumpet is sounded. It is when this final trumpet is
> blown that the 7 year tribulation period is over and it is only then
> that Jesus Christ comes back for his Saints and begins his rule over
> this earthly kingdom. Look at the following verse and ask yourself
> does this explanation refer to the Bahai twin manifestations the Bab &
> Baha'u'llah?
>
> Matthew 24:29-30 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days
> the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and
> the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will
> be shaken, and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky,
> and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the
> Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great
> glory".
>
>
> Baldrick
--
To get random signatures put text files into a folder called "Random
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Baldrick
> There are even three woes (not two) in the Book of Revelation.
Sure and here we have another bahai in APOCALYPSE UNSEALED by ROBERT
F. RIGGS http://bahai-library.com/books/apocalypse/index.html let his
imagination run wild in believing the three woes are Muhammad, the
bab & Baha'u'llah.
"The three woes to come are the dawnings of the Lord's Days of
Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah. That a "woe" signals a Day
of the Lord is made clear by Ezekiel._/11 'Abdu'l-Baha says,
"Therefore it is certain that the day of woe is the Day of the
Lord; for in that day woe is for the neglectful, woe is for the
sinners, woe is for the ignorant."_/12
In astrological symbolism, the three woes correspond to what
astrologers call the "fiery triplicity," that is, Sagittarius,
Aries and Leo. Sagittarius the Archer, to be introduced in
Chapter 9, represents the fiery wrath of god that will attend the
Manifestation of Muhammad. The wrath of Aries the Lamb,
corresponding to that of the Bab's Manifestation, was previewed
in [Revelations] 6:16. The wrath of Leo the Lion corresponds to
that of the Manifestation of Baha'u'llah. This will be the
subject of the last 9 chapters.
In each new age, "wrath" attends the judgement of the
mischiefmakers of the dying civilization. Following His role as
a "bringer of the wrath of God," the Manifestation assumes His
role as one of the Pillars of the Age. This is why the signs of
Jesus are both a Lamb and a Fish, and the signs of the Bab are
both a Lamb and a Man."
http://bahai-library.com/books/apocalypse/apocalypse08.html
What I found interesting during my 13 years bahai membership was how
the AO give certain American Bahai authors like Robert Riggs, William
Sears, Micheal Sours, & Gary Matthews the red light to promote Bahaism
in any whako way they wish, by using all sorts of imagionary
interpretation of the Bahai writings and the Bible run wild. Yet
Baha'is are informed that members of the Universal House have no
authority to interpret the bahai writings. The Central figures and the
Guardian had only that authority. Funny how the AO approves of any
Bahai Tom Dick or Harry to write apocalyptic books, as long as they
are propagating Muhammad the Bab & Baha'u'llah as three returns of
Christ.
Baldrick
Baldrick
Matt Menge
> John 16:13-15 ...for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he
> shall hear that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
> He shall glorify me for: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew
> it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine; therefore said
> I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
>
> That is, the Comforter represents God.
>
Actually, I think the Comforter may be identified here with 'the
Father', that is, Baha'u'llah. But let's stick to basics.
Best Regards,
Matt
Susan Maneck
>the AO give certain American Bahai authors like Robert Riggs, William
>Sears, Micheal Sours, & Gary Matthews the red light to promote Bahaism
Gave them the red light, huh?
> Yet
>Baha'is are informed that members of the Universal House have no
>authority to interpret the bahai writings.
>The Central figures and the
>Guardian had only that authority.
Gee, and no one ever explained to you the difference between individual and
authoritative interpretation?
>Funny how the AO approves of any
>Bahai Tom Dick or Harry to write apocalyptic books,
Michael Sours and Gary Mathews don't write apocalyptic books. I can't speak for
Robert since I haven't read his. But the only Baha'i author I know of who wrote
along those lines was Ruth Moffet and she had to get her work published in
India because our Publishing Trust wouldn't approve it.
But don't worry. They probably would have given you the red light.
Susan
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/
To subscribe: use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.net
Baldrick
Yeah, lets stick to basics. Baha'u'llah couldn't even think for
himself he copied all his ideas from ISLAM ISLAM ISLAM regarding the
word comforter meaning MUHAMMAD MUHAMMAD MUHAMMAD.
Baha'u'llah just stuck his own name on the end of the list, and now
you are another puppet for Islam and Bahaism Matt.
List of Islamic books were Muhammad is called the COMFORTER in JOHN
14.16
BIBLIOGRAPHY
BOOKS AND PAMPHLETS:
Badawi, Dr J - Muhammad in the Bible. (Islamic Information Foundation,
Halifax, Canada, 1982).
Dawud, Prof A - Muhammad in the Bible. (Angkatan Nahdhatul- Islam
Bersatu, Singapore, 1978).
Deedat, A H - Muhammad in the Old and the New Testaments. (Uthmania
Islamic Service Centre, Johannesburg, South Africa. n.d.)
Deedat, A H - Muhammad Successor to Jesus Christ as portrayed in the
Old and New Testaments. (Muslim Brotherhood Aid Services, Johannesburg
South Africa n.d.)
Deedat, A H - What the Bible says about Muhammad. (Islamic Propagation
Centre, Durban, South Africa, 1976)
Durrani, Dr M H - Muhammad - The Biblical Prophet. (International
Islamic Publishers, Karachi, Pakistan, 1980).
Gilchrist, J D - The Prophet after Moses. (Jesus to the Muslims,
Benoni, South Africa, 1976).
Gilchrist, J D - The Successor to Christ. (Jesus to the Muslims,
Benoni, South Africa, 1975).
Hamid, S M A - Evidence of the Bible about Mohammad. (Karachi,
Pakistan, 1973).
Jamiat, U N - The Prophet Muhammad in the Bible. (Jamiat Ulema Natal,
Wasbank, South Africa, n.d.)
Kaldani D B - Mohammad in the Bible. (Abbas Manzil Library, Allahabad,
Pakistan, 1952).
Lee, F N - Muhammad in the Bible? (Unpublished M.Th. thesis,
Stellenbosch, South Africa, 1964).
S G Mission - The Prophet like unto Moses. (Scripture Gift Mission,
London, England, 1951).
Shafaat, Dr A - Islam and its Prophet: A Fulfilment of Biblical
Prophecies. (Nur Al Islam Foundation, Ville St Laurent, Canada, 1984).
Vidyarthy, A H - Muhammad in World Scriptures. (Volume 2, Ahmadiyya
Anjuman Ishaat-l-lslam, Lahore, Pakistan, 1968).
Y.M.M.A. - Do you know? The Prophet Muhammad is prophesied in the Holy
Bible! (Young Men's Muslim Association. Johannesburg, South Africa,
1960).
ARTICLES IN OTHER BOOKS:
Niazi, K - The Bible and the last Prophet. (The Mirror of Trinity, S M
Ashrai', Lahorc, Pakistan, 1975).
Pfander, C G - Is the Mission of Mohammad foretold in the Old or New
Testaments? Mizanul Haqq - the Balance of Truth, Church Missionary
House, London, England, 1867).
Robson, J - Does the Bible speak of Muhammad? (The Muslim World, Vol.
25, p. 17).
Smith, P - Did Jesus Foretell Ahmed? (The Muslim World, Vol. 12, p.
71).
Baldrick
Mr. Bad Judgement
Baldrick wrote:
> in article dc19cfc5.04071...@posting.google.com, Matt Menge
> at mspm...@msn.com wrote on 10/7/04 10:15 pm:
>
>
>>baldri...@yahoo.co.uk (Baldrick) wrote in message
>>
>>>With respect Daniel
>>>
>>>But when a Bahai starts reciting verses from the Holy Bible warning
>>>alarm bells begin to ring in my head. Jesus said "false Christs and
>>>false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, as so
>
> to
>
>>>mislead, if possible, even the elect" (Matthew 24:24).
>>
>>What Christians forget is that there is a hidden message here.
>>Implicit in these statements is that there would be true Christs and
>>true Prophets. Otherwise Jesus would have simply said, "After Me,
>>don't follow anyone".
>
>
> Matt
>
> There is no verse in the New Testament to say that any other prophet
> is to come until the second coming of Christ .
Are you trying to split hairs, here, or, are you simply ingoring the
text of the New Testament? though you might not see the words "a
prophet will come before the second coming", Revelations _does_ say that
two _witnesses_ "will prophesy ..."
"And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy
a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."
Revelation 11:3
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev011.html
> Baha'is and Muslims
> misinterpret the word *COMFORTER* in the following four verses to
> represent the coming of the Prophet Muhammad. This is nonsense
> COMFORTER means the HOLY GHOST. Read 2nd verse enclosed.
>
Even were you to provide examples of Baha'is using these verses, you
still need to strain how their interpretation is wrong. It would seem
to me, that by reading the _Holy_Spirit_ consistent with the continuity
of Manifestations of God, there is a bit more Comfort, than some as yet
unseen, unheard, Holy Ghost - Holy Ghost of Whom? Casper would be a
more comforting ghost.
>
> John 14-16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another
> Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.
>
> John 14-26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father
> will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all
> things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
>
> John 15 26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto
> you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from
> the Father, he shall testify of me:
>
> John 16-7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you
> that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto
> you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
>
> The above four verses come from a Bible translation recommended by
> Trueseeker http://www.ibiblio.org/Bahai/Texts/EN/bible.html
>
> During my 13 years as a Bahai I could never get one bahai to show me
> any verses in the Bible to prove the coming of the Bahai Twin
> Manifestations.
If you'd wanted Bible prophecies, read "Thief in the Night". Did you
even _ask_ any Baha'is during, or _prior_ to your thirteen years as a
Baha'i? Did you really want them to read "Thief in the Night" to you,
so you wouldn't have to read the book yourself?
> It tells us in the Book of Revelation that Christ
> doesn't return untill the tribulation is completely over and the
> seventh or last trumpet is sounded.
Wrong again. Revelation 12:5 has a woman giving birth to Him, and yet
there is a war in heaven in verse 7, and in verse 9,
_Satan_is_cast_to_the_earth! It would seem the troubles really get
going down here _after_ He is born. The war against the faithful
continues through the end of chapter 12. You really ought to read the
bible yourself, some day, and maybe stop making references to it until
such time as you've read it.
> It is when this final trumpet is
> blown that the 7 year tribulation period is over and it is only then
> that Jesus Christ comes back for his Saints and begins his rule over
> this earthly kingdom. Look at the following verse and ask yourself
> does this explanation refer to the Bahai twin manifestations the Bab &
> Baha'u'llah?
>
The Bible is the best source of hermeneutics, the rules for interpreting
the Bible. 2 Peter 1:20-21 reads, "Knowing this first, that no prophecy
of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came
not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they
were] moved by the Holy Ghost."
Peter points out that the prophecy is in Biblical inspiration, so,
Biblical inspiration should be used to interpret this. For example,
Peter uses inspiration to interpret the Book of Joel. Quoting from Acts
2:16-20, Joel reads,
"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out
of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall
prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall
dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out
in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew
wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and
fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and
the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:"
Amazing! The prophet Joel had prophesied that the sun would turn dark
and the moon would turn to blood before the day of the Lord coming. Not
only that, but Peter interpreted the passages as fullfilled on
Pentecost, fifty days after the Last Supper, w/o even checking if the
moon had literally been turned to blood.
> Matthew 24:29-30 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days
> the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and
> the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will
> be shaken, and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky,
> and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the
> Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great
> glory".
>
Using the rule of using the Bible interpretations that the Bible has
already given, prophesies of the sun going dark and the moon turning to
blood, clearly do not imply that the sun will go dark, or the moon turn
to blood, instead, they imply something else altogether. More likely
the prophesies imply religious leadership that does not know the times
nor the ages.
- Mr. Bad
Baldrick
prophesy the Bahai Twin Manifestations"?
Remenmber I answered your two questions Dodging my question Susan.
is the sure sign of proof that Baha'u'llah is a charlatan & imposter
false prophet warned about in the Bible.
Baldrick
in article 20040711112845...@mb-m15.aol.com, Susan Maneck
at sma...@aol.com wrote on 11/7/04 4:28 pm:
--
Baldrick
kohliCUT...@ameritel.net wrote on 11/7/04 5:04 pm:
> If you'd wanted Bible prophecies, read "Thief in the Night"
You mean William Sears make believe detective-type story, which were
largely based on ideas found in and adapted from Seventh-Day Adventist
literature. Baldrick
Thief in the Night or The Strange Case of the Missing Millennium
Review Thief in the Night, or, The Strange Case of the Missing
Millennium.
Author: William Sears
Published by: Oxford: George Ronald, 1961
Reviewer: Anonymous (name on file)
[Note: this is a message posted by an individual Bahá'í to an Internet
discussion list in 1998, as part of a discussion concerning inerrancy
and the writings of the Hands of the Cause. It attempts to put William
Sears' book Thief in the Night into context with regard to the
historical development of the Bahá'í community and Bahá'í studies. The
author, who consented to its publication, prefers to remain
anonymous.]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"William Sears was one of the most gifted communicators and dedicated
servants the Cause has known. His book Thief in the Night, which was
written as a detective-type story, was largely based on ideas found in
and adapted from Seventh-Day Adventist literature, notably the book
Our Day in the Light of Prophecy by W.A. Spicer, a book that is now
quite dated. Several of the other sources used by Sears are culled
from the same work. In this way Sears correlated the Bahá'í Faith with
selected beliefs and interpretive ideas already held by a segment of
the Christian population. Many of the errors that occur in Thief in
the Night are due to the fact that Sears relied upon his Christian
sources without checking them, and this we can assume because he felt
his audience (i.e., Christians) accepted the arguments. I think he
would have been surprised to find Bahá'ís today religiously holding to
these arguments even after Christians had mostly abandoned them.
Although its prophetic arguments are often problematic and it does
contain numerous errors, Thief in the Night nonetheless presents many
basic Bahá'í principles and teachings effectively and accurately.
Unfortunately other Bahá'í authors assumed that Sears' information was
correct and copied ideas from it, giving them added attention and
currency in the community. The absence of critical thought and
independent investigation of truth among Bahá'í authors does not serve
the community well. It perpetuates unnecessary mistakes and gives
critics more opportunities. This is just another reason why the
Association of Bahá'í Studies needs to be supported. There is no
compelling reason for Bahá'ís to canonize the earliest efforts of its
authors, and it is worth noting that in time other early Bahá'í books
have been replaced by more accurate or contemporary works. Even before
Thief in the Night there were other books about prophecy now long out
of print and largely forgotten.
It may be that Thief in the Night has been one of the most effective
or persuasive books available, but unfortunately there are no
scientific data supporting such a theory about it or any other Bahá'í
book. For years it was the most extensive secondary Bahá'í book
regarding prophecy. Because of George Townshend's obvious credentials
he was much more qualified to write such a book, but he never did.
Bahá'ís seeking to present the faith to Christians had few other
options fitting this description, so we can understand why so many
copies were sold to Bahá'ís over the last 37 years.
Christians have tens of thousands of books about prophecy, whereas
today Bahá'ís still have only a few to choose from. As the Association
of Bahá'í Studies develops we can hope that more individuals — persons
with qualifications, for example, like Stephen Lambden — will write
and expand the scope of Bahá'í literature concerning biblical themes
and subjects. When that happens, and if the community is blessed again
with a communicator as gifted as William Sears, then that communicator
will have a body of credible and well-researched Bahá'í literature to
draw upon — something William Sears unfortunately did not have. It is
to William Sears' credit that he did as well as he did given the
circumstances and sparse resources available to him and that he had
the courage and commitment to do his best despite the limitations
confronting him. The Bahá'í community needs both scholars who can
reach educated people (both religious people and those who are not)
and persons who can effectively communicate to people who are not
academics. Presently there are very few Bahá'í scholars giving any
real attention to biblical and Christian studies.
Problems in Thief in the Night are not confined to ideas at variance
with modern scholarship and contemporary biblical studies, but are on
a more fundamental level. Sears appears, for example, to have relied
solely on a surface reading of the King James Version of the Bible,
i.e., he was reading the archaic English from a modern perspective and
without the benefit of commentary on the original Hebrew and Greek.
This caused him to misunderstand the meaning and to infer things that
are not apparent in the manuscript evidence. Such misunderstanding
caused mistakes that extend to matters that indicate a general lack of
familiarity with major biblical themes and terminology. And this is
one reason why even Christians without scholarly backgrounds can see
problems in the book. That is, even a person familiar with only the
King James Version would not make some of the errors made by Sears.
They may therefore reject the arguments in the book not because they
are blind to the truth or hard hearted, but because it lacks
credibility in their eyes for justifiable reasons. One of the reasons
for some of the problems in the book is also because William Sears
appears to have been unacquainted with sound scholarly methodology. In
particular, he failed to review his documents and evidences in a
manner that would have prevented some of his misunderstandings about
the meaning and significance of the documents. I would not argue that
this makes him irresponsible, though, since he was an entertainer by
profession, not a trained scholar.
It is also worth keeping in mind that books such as The Prophecies of
Jesus do not depart from Sears' approach on account of adopting
secular, scholarly views. Prophecies of Jesus, like Thief in the
Night, holds to the view that the Bible is inspired. Secular and
religious scholars, given as they are to diverse opinions, would find
objectionable ideas in both books. Prophecies of Jesus was an attempt
to present a more updated and thoroughly researched presentation of
Bahá'í writings relating to the prophecies of Jesus. It draws not
mainly on secular religious studies but quite deliberately emphasizes
a wide spectrum of sources respected by conservative Christians. Thus
far, there is no secondary Bahá'í book written with the aim of
presenting the faith to secular scholars specializing in critical
biblical studies.
If we attempt to create the impression that all the books written by
Bahá'í authors — including books written by Hands of the Cause — are
without errors, minor or significant, then every time a person finds
an error, he or she will feel misled and deceived. If, on the other
hand, it is assumed that all such secondary books may contain errors
like any other books, then we can openly advise people to read, with
critical minds, not just one opinion about the Bahá'í Faith, but as
many as they like. That is, we can offer all such books as merely the
opinions of the authors rather than the last word on the truth.
Personally, I think it is to the credit of the Bahá'í community if the
friends feel able to openly discuss the merits and flaws of secondary
Bahá'í literature. If the world understands that it is a Bahá'í
methodology to deny all errors or conceal them, than it simply
indicates that one cannot rely on information obtained from Bahá'í
sources. In order for the community to have credibility in the eyes of
critical thinkers there must be freedom in the Bahá'í community to
point out errors without being censored. This is particularly
important with regard to peer review, that is, that persons qualified
within a given field of study be allowed to openly critique each
other's work both before and after publication. This process means
that writers and readers gain from the critical review of experts and
specialists. For example, imagine if a scholar publishes opinions and
findings about a new drug, but none of the scholar's peers felt free
to criticize the article. If this were to happen, then the author who
writes in good faith fails to benefit from the collective wisdom and
knowledge of others — as do people using the new drug. It would mean
that ideas could circulate without being corrected and without
alternatives being offered. It would be hard for a society governed by
such attitudes to advance. Open consultation and independent
investigation of truth are essential to the advancement of knowledge.
Constructive criticism is essential to progress.
There are a number of books available that can be used to present the
Bahá'í Faith to Christians. Bahá'ís are not limited to Thief in the
Night or Prophecies of Jesus. Although it is not a catalog of
prophecies, I'm surprised that George Townshend's work The Heart of
the Gospel was not mentioned as another alternative. At this point in
Bahá'í history, a Bahá'í might consider introducing a number of
available works to a seeker, pointing out the merits of each and even
offering critical thoughts. The seeker can then decide for his or her
own self what type of book he or she would like to read. Increasing
the diversity of approaches and opinions available in secondary Bahá'í
literature will increase the range of persons to which the Bahá'í
community will be able to reach. It will also dilute the tendency to
uncritically attribute too much authority to any one author's opinions
— and that's a good thing.
Which is better: to only hear about errors in Bahá'í literature when
non-Bahá'ís discover and point them out, or to have Bahá'ís themselves
discover them first and freely point them out? Surely most Bahá'ís
would not want to think that the only way they will get a critical
assessment of the quality of a Bahá'í publication is when a non-Bahá'í
points it out to them. That would basically mean that if you want to
know what's going on you couldn't rely on a Bahá'í to tell you.
http://bahai-library.com/?file=review_sears_thief_night.html
Mr. Bad Judgement
Baldrick wrote:
> You havent answered my question, "Were in the Bible is the verses to
> prophesy the Bahai Twin Manifestations"?
>
"Thief in the Night" goes into tedius details, George. Would you like a
Baha'i to read it to you as a bed-time story each night? Or does the
title run against your anti-American grain?
- Mr. Bad
> Remenmber I answered your two questions
Which two questions?
Mr. Bad Judgement
Baldrick wrote:
> in article 2ld5kaF...@uni-berlin.de, Mr. Bad Judgement at
> kohliCUT...@ameritel.net wrote on 11/7/04 5:04 pm:
>
>
>>If you'd wanted Bible prophecies, read "Thief in the Night"
>
>
> You mean William Sears make believe detective-type story, which were
> largely based on ideas found in and adapted from Seventh-Day Adventist
> literature. Baldrick
>
I think you've got the right William Sears, but I think he cribbed off
of Shoghi Effendi. Any similarity with the teachings of the _other_
William Miller (ca 1782 - 1849) would be due to the coincidence of
reading the Bible, and looking about to the times of the early to mid
nineteenth century.
William Miller was certainly not the only adventist of the day. The
Shakers of the previous century were an adventist group, and even the
name of the Mormons, the "Latter Day Saints", suggests a belief they
were 'living in the end times'. We just don't see so much of this any
more, do we?
- Mr. Bad
Paul Hammond
>
> Since resigning my membership in 2002 I have been accused by Bahais &
> their friends on TRB of ignorance about the Bahai writings, and not
> reading enough. Well If I was ignorant so was Mirza Aqa Jan, and he
> wrote the writings, yet he became a covenant breaker. "Mirza Aqa Jan.
> was the amanuensis (secretary or scribe) of Bahá'u'lláh, and served
> him for 40 years. He met Bahá'u'lláh at the age of 16, and was among
> the first to be aware of Bahá'u'lláh's station as Manifestation of
> God. Mirza Aqa Jan was honored to be present during the Revelations,
> and is described as writing so rapidly that the sound of the pen was
> shrill, and the ink was not dry when the page was completed. He is
> credited for recording and preserving many of the Writings, but after
> Bahá'u'lláh's death, he did not support the Covenant and turned
> against Abdul Baha; he died in 1901."
>
> Historical Personages Related to Early Tablets
> http://www.bahai-library.com/visuals/timeline.people.html
>
> Baldrick
With no respect at all, Balders, comparing yourself with
Mirza Aqa Jan is the very height of conceit.
He, at least, probably understood something about what he
was rejecting.
You appear to have no clue whatsoever about your former
faith and what it teaches.
Paul
Cal E. Rollins
Well I see plenty latter day stuff here in San Francisco. The Jehovah's
Witness are having a field day every day except Sabbath. And the
Mormons crowding the buses and trollies and even riding bicycles in
their teaching frenzy. Both groups are calling the lost and heedless to
either Judgement or the New Jerusalem (since the Jews won't let them
into the old one). I see that the spirit of the Time of the End is
alive and well. There's one little Asian guy who daily works Market
Street with jibberish about the End of Days and my little crazy guy who
inspired my poem below just re-did his dog-earred, grubby, much
walked-on and otherwise abused sign about the evils of living in
Babylon in time for the Gay Pride Parade two weeks ago. The Spirit is
with us. --Cal
Conflux
In this room
I hear the faucet
dripping (shower?),
cats jump from packed
to unpacked boxes (all
walls are bare); chimes
(God Bless America) via
the U.M. Church
vie with the shatter
of auto glass.
And the doves top cooing.
In my ripe, clear, San Fran-
cisco world I see life coming
from somewhere, I drop
my cable car down California's
Nob Hill, leave Grace Cathedral
high and wide, pass bad
MITSUBISHI Bank where human flies
had scaled the walls, protesters
strapped to pillars like martyrs.
On down
to Market Street and a stoic
sandwich-boarder: "Babylon!
Oh, Babylon...Repent!" Indeed!
My closet now
holds only a change of clothes
and the promise of the Fall.
Cal E. Rollins
NO ROOSTERS IN THIS BLUE CITY
Kalimat Press, p. 20
Matt Menge
> Matt,
>
> You are correct, the comforter (THE HOLY GHOST) is the third part of
> the Trinity. But you are incorrect that the comforter is a prophesy
> to do with the coming of Muhammad, the Bab or Baha'u'llah.
>
> "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost....... John 14.26
>
> I will explain.
>
> No1) In traditional Christianity When a Christian child is baptised
> they are blessed in the name of the Father, the Son and the HOLY
> GHOST. Salvation is by the grace. The comforter is the HOLY GHOST in
> that Christian so long as they continue to believe in Christ, and
> practice their religious duties throughout their lives.
>
> No 2) In evangelical Christianity salvation is by faith in Christ,
> called (Being reborn or Saved) Many churches practice adult full
> immersion baptisim following in the footsteps of being baptised like
> John the Bapist. carried out. The comforter (like as in No1) is the
> HOLY GHOST so long the Christian continues to believe Christ is their
> personal saviour and practice their religious duties through out their
> lives.
>
> These two simple examples could be elaborated on more, but I am only
> defining the meaning of word COMFORTER to Christians They believe the
> *COMFORTER * Holy Ghost is within them. "But if the Spirit of Him
> that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up
> Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His
> Spirit that dwelleth in you." (Romans 8:11 KJV)
That is an interesting passage that I have not heard before. Of
course "mortal" simply means prone to death, not "mortal" in the sense
of being physical. For example in Ezekiel 37:1-14, there is a
prophecy of the Word of the Lord resurrecting a whole army. There is
some detail here, the sinews being formed, the bones joining together
and so on. Basically it is symbolic, just as Luke 24:38-39 is. Man
has both a physical body and a spiritual body.
It may be possible that St. Paul really doesn't get this, but I am
willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I think when he says,
that "they that are in the flesh cannot please God" (8:8) he really
means in a body of flesh, rather than a spiritual body.
>
> This has nothing to do with the Bahai/Islamic belief that the second
> coming was Muhammad 622, Bab 1844 or Baha'u'llah 1853-63.
>
> Matt, There is ample evidence in the Gospels that Jesus did indeed
> come ) in the first century. He came in His kingdom (Matt. 16:28)
> with power (Mk. 9:1) on the day of Pentecost (Acts 1:4-5, 8; 2:1-4,
> 33). Now, look how Jesus described the sending of the promised
> Comforter (the Holy Ghost) in John 14:18: "I come unto you." Surely no
> one will conclude that this must mean a bodily coming of Jesus!
Well, when He says He will come... I find it kind of ironic that one
of the passages that Baha'is interpret literally, you interpret
metaphorically!
How
> would He come? Not bodily, but representatively, through the Holy
> Spirit whom He would send (Jno. 15:26). Again, in Matthew 24:29-30,
> Jesus taught that during that generation (24:34) "they shall see the
> Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
> The context of Matthew 24 tells us how they would see Him.
Actually, I tend to agree somewhat with your quite unorthodox
interpretation. Except I don't see this as being the "Comforter".
This is simply people recognizing Jesus.
> Matt, when Christ returns (THE SECOND COMING) he is not coming as a
> COMFORTER this time but as a JUDGE "I charge thee therefore before
> God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, Who shall judge the quick and the dead
> at His appearing and His Kingdom" (2 Timothy 4:1 KJV)
>
He is a "Comforter" for the faithful, not for everyone. In fact the
same is true of the Holy Spirit.
Best Regards,
Matt
Matt Menge
Regards,
Matt
baldri...@yahoo.co.uk (Baldrick) wrote in message news:<9b91a665.04071...@posting.google.com>...
Susan Maneck
>
>"Thief in the Night" goes into tedius details, George.
Naah, too many mistakes. Michael Sours and Gary Matthews do a better job. But
then again you'd have to actually read the Bible to catch those and we all know
George doesn't read.
>
>> Dodging my question Susan.
>> is the sure sign of proof that Baha'u'llah is a charlatan & imposter
LOL. Gee, I didn't know I had so much power. That's all it takes to prove for
sure that Baha'u'llah is an imposter, huh? For me to dodge a question!
Just answer my two questions first, George. It isn't a dodge. We are simply
going to apply the same principle by which you answer those questions to your
own.
Matt Menge
> himself he copied all his ideas from ISLAM ISLAM ISLAM regarding the
> word comforter meaning MUHAMMAD MUHAMMAD MUHAMMAD.
>
> Baha'u'llah just stuck his own name on the end of the list, and now
> you are another puppet for Islam and Bahaism Matt.
>
> List of Islamic books were Muhammad is called the COMFORTER in JOHN
> 14.16
>
Gosh, Muslims think Muhammad was prophesied in the Gospel? What a
shock?
First of all, Baha'u'llah said He was the return of Christ which, as
far as I can gather, most Muslims don't say about Muhammad. Second, I
don't think repeating something as basic and obvious as "the
Comforter" means that Baha'u'llah was "not original".
Being an original religion does not mean you do _everything_
different.
Regards,
Matt
Freethought110
> So did he renounce his belief in Baha'u'llah? Quite a few
> Covenant-breakers never did, you know.
He didn't have to. He *spilled* the beans about your "profit" and his
so called revelation, namely that 1) he Khadim'ullah was the one who
had coaxed Husayn Ali to make his claim in the first place and thereby
put a knife in the back of the Bab's own chosen and legitimate
successor, 2) he had been the one who had composed the majority of the
dribble and pseudo-spiritual crud of Husayn Ali and therefore 3) he
had been the real revelator of baha'ism all along, not Rasputin with a
Taj.
> Best Regards,
>
> Matt
"If this Husayn Ali is the manifestation of the Husayn of Ali,
A thousand mercies of God be upon the pure soul of Yazid."
-- Shaykh Ahmad Ruhi (d.1896)*
* "agar in Husayn Ali mazhar-e Husayn-e Alist,
hezar rahmat-e haqq bar ravan-e pak-e Yazid."
Nima
Paul Hammond
> What, so Baha'i scholars are just supposed to bury their heads in the sand?
>
> Regards,
>
> Matt
>
> baldri...@yahoo.co.uk (Baldrick) wrote in message news:<9b91a665.04071...@posting.google.com>...
>
> >
> > http://bahai-library.com/books/apocalypse/apocalypse08.html
> >
> > What I found interesting during my 13 years bahai membership was how
> > the AO give certain American Bahai authors like Robert Riggs, William
> > Sears, Micheal Sours, & Gary Matthews the red light to promote Bahaism
> > in any whako way they wish,
I'm sure you meant to say GREEN light here, since red lights usually
tell people to stop the car, at least when I'm driving (remind
me never to accept a lift from George).
Still, do continue. I'm simply amazed that you can remember anything
at all from your 13 years as a Baha'i, seeing as how most of it
appears to have made little impression.
Were you drunk for the entire thirteen years, George?