Tower of Babel vs World Unity
Robert Arvay
(Genesis Chapter 11), which soon fell off the internet and now I can't
find it, nor approach its wisdom.
It's one of the passages I've always struggled to understand. Now, it
makes a lot more sense.
According to the rabbi, as best I can recall his exposition, man is a
conspirator against God. In Christian terms (which are more familiar
to me), man's every inclination is toward depravity. In Noah's time,
this inclination overwhelmed nearly all of mankind (possibly with
heavy demonic involvement), and the only remedy was to wash mankind
from earth by flood, leaving a remnant of only eight.
Not many generations after the Flood, man once again reverts to his
state of debauchery, and begins to establish himself upon the face of
the earth in a quest to usurp God.
God's remedy this time is to fracture human society, according to
language, so that man can no longer effectively conspire against Him.
There, my recollection of the wise rabbi's lesson ends.
But as I look upon the Baha'i preoccupation with World Unity, I cannot
help but ask, is this an end times manifestation of a return to the
world as Satan would have it? Is the movement for world unity yet
another effort in the conspiracy against God?
Jerry Joplin
> But as I look upon the Baha'i preoccupation with World Unity, I cannot
> help but ask, is this an end times manifestation of a return to the
> world as Satan would have it? Is the movement for world unity yet
> another effort in the conspiracy against God?
Or, you might ask: Is your preoccupation with end times itself the
world as Satan would have it? Do you suppose Christ wants us to live
in peace, or destroy every living creature on earth to satisfy your
interpretation of Armageddon?
Jerry
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
"Robert Arvay" <Rober...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:e247d7b6.03102...@posting.google.com...
> I recently read a rabbinical commentary about the Tower of Babel
> (Genesis Chapter 11), which soon fell off the internet and now I can't
> find it, nor approach its wisdom.
Was the Tower of Babel on the Internet? No wonder it fell off.
> It's one of the passages I've always struggled to understand. Now, it
> makes a lot more sense.
>
> According to the rabbi, as best I can recall his exposition, man is a
> conspirator against God. In Christian terms (which are more familiar
> to me), man's every inclination is toward depravity.
Yeah! Let's have more of it!
> In Noah's time,
> this inclination overwhelmed nearly all of mankind (possibly with
> heavy demonic involvement),
Halloween all the year round!
> and the only remedy was to wash mankind
> from earth by flood, leaving a remnant of only eight.
That's what I call a real cleaning job.
> Not many generations after the Flood, man once again reverts to his
> state of debauchery, and begins to establish himself upon the face of
> the earth in a quest to usurp God.
How can created usurp function of Creator?
> God's remedy this time is to fracture human society, according to
> language, so that man can no longer effectively conspire against Him.
Wow! So man can effectively conspire against God. Now that's news to me
seeing as how Himself can wipe man out with one whizz of a comet which he
can control ... of course ... seeing as how he created it.
> There, my recollection of the wise rabbi's lesson ends.
Phew! That's a stroke of good luck.
> But as I look upon the Baha'i preoccupation with World Unity, I cannot
> help but ask, is this an end times manifestation of a return to the
> world as Satan would have it? Is the movement for world unity yet
> another effort in the conspiracy against God?
Nah! It's just a conspiracy to impose "American Values" on the rest of the
world!
Rod
Dermod Ryder <grim_reaper MO...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:bnn0j6$grq$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
> > But as I look upon the Baha'i preoccupation with World Unity, I cannot
> > help but ask, is this an end times manifestation of a return to the
> > world as Satan would have it? Is the movement for world unity yet
> > another effort in the conspiracy against God?
>
> Nah! It's just a conspiracy to impose "American Values" on the rest of
the
> world!
>
You will be assimilated.......resistance is futile.
Rod.
(Isn't your fine isle part of the "axis of the indifferent"? ;-)
Robert Arvay
Jerry Joplin <Je...@JerryJoplinNoSchpamm.com> wrote in message news:<vptkcu2...@corp.supernews.com>...
> Or, you might ask: Is your preoccupation with end times itself the
> world as Satan would have it? Do you suppose Christ wants us to live
> in peace, or destroy every living creature on earth to satisfy your
> interpretation of Armageddon?
>
Huh?
When did I ever remotely suggest any such thing?
Do you blame hurricanes on weathermen?
Robert Arvay
"Dermod Ryder" <grim_reaper MO...@btinternet.com> wrote in message news:<bnn0j6$grq$1...@hercules.btinternet.com>...
> "Robert Arvay" <Rober...@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:e247d7b6.03102...@posting.google.com...
> > I recently read a rabbinical commentary about the Tower of Babel
> > (Genesis Chapter 11), which soon fell off the internet and now I can't
> > find it, nor approach its wisdom.
>
> Was the Tower of Babel on the Internet? No wonder it fell off.
Are you accusing me of employing a remote antecedent? How dare you!
> >
> > In Christian terms (which are more familiar
> > to me), man's every inclination is toward depravity.
>
> Yeah! Let's have more of it!
We do.
>
> > In Noah's time,
> > this inclination overwhelmed nearly all of mankind (possibly with
> > heavy demonic involvement),
>
> Halloween all the year round!
You're not accusing Halloweeners of demonicry?
>
> > and the only remedy was to wash mankind
> > from earth by flood, leaving a remnant of only eight.
>
> That's what I call a real cleaning job.
Sadly.
>
> > Not many generations after the Flood, man once again reverts to his
> > state of debauchery, and begins to establish himself upon the face of
> > the earth in a quest to usurp God.
>
> How can created usurp function of Creator?
Good question. But apparently, many people think they can.
>
> > There, my recollection of the wise rabbi's lesson ends.
>
> Phew! That's a stroke of good luck.
If only I could be as lucky in other areas of life.
>
> > But as I look upon the Baha'i preoccupation with World Unity, I cannot
> > help but ask, is this an end times manifestation of a return to the
> > world as Satan would have it? Is the movement for world unity yet
> > another effort in the conspiracy against God?
>
> Nah! It's just a conspiracy to impose "American Values" on the rest of the
> world!
Like democracy and human rights.
Strange how many people flock to our shores to have our values "imposed" upon them!
Jerry Joplin
> Jerry Joplin <Je...@JerryJoplinNoSchpamm.com> wrote:
>
>>Or, you might ask: Is your preoccupation with end times itself the
>>world as Satan would have it? Do you suppose Christ wants us to live
>>in peace, or destroy every living creature on earth to satisfy your
>>interpretation of Armageddon?
>>
>
> Huh?
> When did I ever remotely suggest any such thing?
> Do you blame hurricanes on weathermen?
You say it here:
Robert Arvay wrote:
> It is clear that the end times will begin with the rider on the
> white horse, the sudden appearance of a world ruler who,
> although pleasing in appearance, presages such tribulation
> as the world has never seen (see Matthew 24 and 25). He will
> establish a one world empire: one religion, one economy, one
> government. He will appear to have solved all the world's
> problems, but instead will be merely a mask covering the
> festering problems which will ultimately reach a critical
> mass of destruction.
Jerry
Robert Arvay
Jerry Joplin <Je...@JerryJoplinNoSchpamm.com> wrote in message news:<vpvnsbt...@corp.supernews.com>...
This is a far different thing than to infer that I desire destruction
in order to satisfy my interpretation, or to infer that Jesus desires
destruction.
What you call my "interpretation" is narrowly focused on what The
Revelation says.
I might interpret what the "seven heads" mean, or why the "seven
thunders" words are sealed up until the end. The Bible is not
explicitly clear enough IMO for me to expound upon that.
But the establishment of the one world religion, one world economy,
world empire, is simply what the Bible says. The very words of Jesus
Himself speak of a time of unprecedented human suffering. In that
respect, even the Baha'is have a vague prophecy of dark days to come.
So I do not see my remarks as being liberally interpretive. I
certainly am not gleeful about the prospect of the suffering which
might very well afflict my grandchildren!
What I do find highly interpretive is to call the "bottomless pit" to
be "the pit of error," or the object "like a mountain burning with
fire... cast into the sea" (Rev 8:8) to be so vaguely symbolic as to
be meaningless. I've seen such interpretations on SRB, ARB and TRB in
defense of Bahai theology. Vague interpretations are unnecessary and
counterproductive when they render the words of the scripture
irrelevant to its meaning.
The Revelation can be block diagrammed for clarity. In my diagram,
the Seven Seals overview the entire book much like a table of
contents. At chapter ten, the diagram diverges into two parallel
narratives, merging back together at around ch 19. While some
passages are difficult, the overall message is quite clear. IMO to
misunderstand that overall message requires effort, and evasion of the
actual words of the book.
And to specifically answer your question, of course Jesus would rather
we live in peace. But no peace can be made with evil. Evil is
deception and destruction. We must forsake it, and place all our
trust and hope in Jesus alone.
Jerry Joplin
> This is a far different thing than to infer that I desire destruction
> in order to satisfy my interpretation, or to infer that Jesus desires
> destruction.
> What you call my "interpretation" is narrowly focused on what The
> Revelation says.
I'm not saying that you "desire" destruction in order to satisfy your
interpretation. Its more like a self-fulfilling prophecy based upon
your interpretation of an allegorical, prophetic text.
I honestly don't know if you "desire" the destruction of the earth, but
it seems some people have reached that point. Take a look over at:
http://www.countdown.org/
Don't forget to buy your Armageddon emblazened shirt and mousepad while
you're there.
> And to specifically answer your question, of course Jesus would rather
> we live in peace. But no peace can be made with evil. Evil is
> deception and destruction. We must forsake it, and place all our
> trust and hope in Jesus alone.
Yes this is true, and Baha'is believe that Christ has returned and told
us to live in peace and forsake evil.
Jerry
Robert Arvay
Jerry Joplin <Je...@JerryJoplinNoSchpamm.com> wrote in message news:<vq0g0f2...@corp.supernews.com>...
>
> I honestly don't know if you "desire" the destruction of the earth, but
> it seems some people have reached that point. Take a look over at:
> http://www.countdown.org/
> Don't forget to buy your Armageddon emblazened shirt and mousepad while
> you're there.
I honestly don't "'desire' the destruction of the earth."
Some people are indeed morbidly fascinated with the prospect of doom.
Remember the Survivalists? (Not the TV show.)
But at the other extreme, many other people have their head in the
sand regarding the unprecedented dangers we now face. Many times in
history, the gathering stormclouds have been ignored, and the price
has been paid in literally millions of lives lost, and in immeasurable
human suffering.
The guns of August 1914, the brownshirts of Mussolini in the 1930's,
and now the tidal wave of terrorists, were (are) all clear warnings of
impending danger. But unlike as in the past, we cannot afford to wait
for the enemy to strike before we begin preparing to react.
Instead of bunkering in as the Survivalists did (some still do, I
imagine), we need to find spiritual refuge in the risen Savior.
As for Baha'is, who are likely to welcome the disguise of a One World
religion, gov't, economy, I can only sound the warning given in The
Revelation: beware the beast, whose words will deceive all who have
not their trust in Jesus.
==============
>
>
> > And to specifically answer your question, of course Jesus would rather
> > we live in peace. But no peace can be made with evil. Evil is
> > deception and destruction. We must forsake it, and place all our
> > trust and hope in Jesus alone.
>
> Yes this is true, and Baha'is believe that Christ has returned and told
> us to live in peace and forsake evil.
>
Beware the beast.
Jerry Joplin
> As for Baha'is, who are likely to welcome the disguise of a One World
> religion, gov't, economy, I can only sound the warning given in The
> Revelation: beware the beast, whose words will deceive all who have
> not their trust in Jesus.
Baha'is will welcome a one world government that will require emperor
worship? I think not....
>Jerry:
>>Yes this is true, and Baha'is believe that Christ has returned and told
>>us to live in peace and forsake evil.
>>
>
> Beware the beast.
I've posted this several times with no comment yet from the Christians,
so I would like to see what you have to say about this way of
determining the antichrist from 1st John:
"4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that
Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in
the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof
ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."
(King James Bible, 1 John)
Baha'is confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, and it is
therefore impossible for a Baha'i world government to be the antichrist.
Jerry
Robert Arvay
Jerry Joplin <Je...@JerryJoplinNoSchpamm.com> wrote in message news:<vq2ebuo...@corp.supernews.com>...
> Robert Arvay wrote:
> > As for Baha'is, who are likely to welcome the disguise of a One World
> > religion, gov't, economy, I can only sound the warning given in The
> > Revelation: beware the beast, whose words will deceive all who have
> > not their trust in Jesus.
>
> Baha'is will welcome a one world government that will require emperor
> worship? I think not....
Baha'is will support the establishment of the Satanic empire. Only
after the damage is done will the beast demand to be worshipped.
Hopefully, Baha'is will then repent and accept the seal of Jesus.
Otherwise, they will accept the mark of the beast, the unforgiveable
sin against the Holy Spirit, thereby being transfixed into eternal
evil.
>
>
> >Jerry:
> I've posted this several times with no comment yet from the Christians,
> so I would like to see what you have to say about this way of
> determining the antichrist from 1st John:
>
> "4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that
> Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
> 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in
> the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof
> ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."
> (King James Bible, 1 John)
>
> Baha'is confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, and it is
> therefore impossible for a Baha'i world government to be the antichrist.
>
The Baha'i representation of Jesus is entirely unBiblical, and does in
no way constitute confession of His coming in the flesh--- neither His
virgin birth nor His bodily resurrection into incorruptibility--- a
resurrection which He will share with us at the rapture.
Baha'is deny (or at best are ambivalent about) many of the teachings
of Jesus's ministry. He was not a mere manifestation of God, He is
God incarnate. He is not to be reduced to an equal of Adam, by whom
sin entered the world, but as the one by whom sin is conquered. He is
not a mere prophet, such as Abraham and Moses who sinned (but Jesus
never sinned). Nor is he a teacher or religionist such as were
Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha, and Mohammed.
Nor was Mirza Husayn Ali the return of Jesus. To try to twist The
Revelation into fitting the Baha'i Faith is an exercise in deception.
The Revelation is clearly about a global empire, unprecedented
cataclysm, and finality.
But such is the power of the deceiving spirit, that intelligent people
will look upon the obvious truth and deny it.
Susan Maneck
>sin against the Holy Spirit, thereby being transfixed into eternal
>evil.
Dear Robert,
That's not what the sin against the Holy Spirit is about. The sin against the
Holy Spirit is to call what is obvious good, evil and to deny the Manifestation
on that basis.
>He is
>not a mere prophet, such as Abraham and Moses who sinned (but Jesus
>never sinned).
There is nothing 'mere' about prophethood in the Baha'i Faith. As for being a
prophet, Peter testifies to this in Acts of the Apostles. He affirms that Jesus
is prophet 'like unto Moses.'
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st
Steve Marshall
>after the damage is done will the beast demand to be worshipped.
>Hopefully, Baha'is will then repent and accept the seal of Jesus.
>Otherwise, they will accept the mark of the beast, the unforgiveable
>sin against the Holy Spirit, thereby being transfixed into eternal
>evil.
Thanks for the product warning. I'd hate to be transfixed into eternal
evil. It wouldn't look good on my CV, for a start.
Jerry Joplin
> Baha'is will support the establishment of the Satanic empire. Only
> after the damage is done will the beast demand to be worshipped.
> Hopefully, Baha'is will then repent and accept the seal of Jesus.
> Otherwise, they will accept the mark of the beast, the unforgiveable
> sin against the Holy Spirit, thereby being transfixed into eternal
> evil.
All one world governments are not Satanic, only the Satanic ones are,
well, Satanic. There is nothing in the Bible that states that one world
government equates with Satan. In fact, even you believe (or do you?)
that Christ will establish his rule over the whole planet, and thus will
create a one world government, right?
>>>Jerry:
>>Baha'is confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, and it is
>>therefore impossible for a Baha'i world government to be the antichrist.
>
> The Baha'i representation of Jesus is entirely unBiblical, and does in
> no way constitute confession of His coming in the flesh--- neither His
> virgin birth nor His bodily resurrection into incorruptibility--- a
> resurrection which He will share with us at the rapture.
You didn't address the issue Robert. Baha'is confesseth that Jesus
Christ is come in the flesh, therefore we can not be the antichrist.
And we do believe in his virgin birth, and his resurrection.
A belief in "bodily resurrection" is not a requirement for being a
Christian, its more of a tradition that is not shared in all Christian
beliefs.
> Baha'is deny (or at best are ambivalent about) many of the teachings
> of Jesus's ministry. He was not a mere manifestation of God, He is
> God incarnate. He is not to be reduced to an equal of Adam, by whom
> sin entered the world, but as the one by whom sin is conquered. He is
> not a mere prophet, such as Abraham and Moses who sinned (but Jesus
> never sinned). Nor is he a teacher or religionist such as were
> Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha, and Mohammed.
How can anyone be a "mere" manifestation of God?
> Nor was Mirza Husayn Ali the return of Jesus. To try to twist The
> Revelation into fitting the Baha'i Faith is an exercise in deception.
> The Revelation is clearly about a global empire, unprecedented
> cataclysm, and finality.
Its mostly about the Roman Empire, Robert. You can try to twist it
around into fitting some delusional beliefs about the necessity for a
global armageddon, but I don't share your beliefs. I firmly believe
that Christ wills a higher expectation for us.
> But such is the power of the deceiving spirit, that intelligent people
> will look upon the obvious truth and deny it.
Yeah, that came to my mind too.
Jerry
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
"Robert Arvay" <Rober...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:e247d7b6.03102...@posting.google.com...
> Greetings;
>
> "Dermod Ryder" <grim_reaper MO...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:<bnn0j6$grq$1...@hercules.btinternet.com>...
> > "Robert Arvay" <Rober...@msn.com> wrote in message
> > news:e247d7b6.03102...@posting.google.com...
> > > I recently read a rabbinical commentary about the Tower of Babel
> > > (Genesis Chapter 11), which soon fell off the internet and now I can't
> > > find it, nor approach its wisdom.
> >
> > Was the Tower of Babel on the Internet? No wonder it fell off.
>
> Are you accusing me of employing a remote antecedent? How dare you!
I dare! I dare!
> > > In Christian terms (which are more familiar
> > > to me), man's every inclination is toward depravity.
> >
> > Yeah! Let's have more of it!
>
> We do.
But not enough! We need more of such depravity as socialism!
> > > In Noah's time,
> > > this inclination overwhelmed nearly all of mankind (possibly with
> > > heavy demonic involvement),
> >
> > Halloween all the year round!
>
> You're not accusing Halloweeners of demonicry?
Ghosties and ghoulies! Fireworks and loud noises to scare away evil
spirits. You tell me!
> > > and the only remedy was to wash mankind
> > > from earth by flood, leaving a remnant of only eight.
> >
> > That's what I call a real cleaning job.
>
> Sadly.
Yup! Really depleted the gene pool, which might explain all that depravity.
the human race was according to the Bible twice descended from incest - the
real "family" game.
> > > Not many generations after the Flood, man once again reverts to his
> > > state of debauchery, and begins to establish himself upon the face of
> > > the earth in a quest to usurp God.
> >
> > How can created usurp function of Creator?
>
> Good question. But apparently, many people think they can.
Only Christians.
> > > There, my recollection of the wise rabbi's lesson ends.
> >
> > Phew! That's a stroke of good luck.
>
> If only I could be as lucky in other areas of life.
Depends on your definition of luck!
> > > But as I look upon the Baha'i preoccupation with World Unity, I cannot
> > > help but ask, is this an end times manifestation of a return to the
> > > world as Satan would have it? Is the movement for world unity yet
> > > another effort in the conspiracy against God?
> >
> > Nah! It's just a conspiracy to impose "American Values" on the rest of
the
> > world!
>
> Like democracy and human rights.
As in Gitmo?
> Strange how many people flock to our shores to have our values "imposed"
upon them!
Yup! The value of the dollar!
QisQos
> help but ask, is this an end times manifestation of a return to the
> world as Satan would have it? Is the movement for world unity yet
> another effort in the conspiracy against God?
Robert:
You and Mr. Stetson may be interested in this latest round of
discussion on end-times dispensationalism which seems to blow holes in
your eschatological approach to things Christian.
http://www.americanvision.org/page.asp?id=107
http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north222.html
The State of Israel and the claims made by endtimers like yourself
that this secular state is a necessary condition for the establishment
of Christ's Kingdom is a fallacy based upon Baptist and other
dispensationalist heresies, many of which took hold of the popular
imagination with Hal Lindsey's "Late Great Planet Earth" and the more
recent "Left Behind " series.
There is very little to differentiate you from the Bahais who claim
Bahaulluh to have fulfilled the eschatology that you adhere to - but
the eschatology is common nevertheless. Otherwise neither you nor your
colleague would have been lured into the Bahaist trap to begin with.
Either way, you are simply spinning your wheels arguing about the
particulars of a scenario that is foundationally incorrect.
So you may want to start by revising the premises by which you
approach Our Lord Jesus Christ -
In Christ
QisQos
Paul Hammond
> > Strange how many people flock to our shores to have our values "imposed"
> upon them!
>
> Yup! The value of the dollar!
THe pound is worth more.
Susan Maneck
>THe pound is worth more.
>
Yeah, but you guys have so few of them. ;-}
But England has gotten more than its share of immigrants as well. Good thing,
too. You can now get a decent meal in London!
Randy Burns
think Baha'i teachings have any truth or not, the claims Baha'is make are
very much the same as the claims being made by Robert and Eric, as I have
tried to point out before.
Randy
--
"QisQos" <Qis...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:29a4262b.0311...@posting.google.com...
Jerry Joplin
> There is very little to differentiate you from the Bahais who claim
> Bahaulluh to have fulfilled the eschatology that you adhere to - but
> the eschatology is common nevertheless. Otherwise neither you nor your
> colleague would have been lured into the Bahaist trap to begin with.
> Either way, you are simply spinning your wheels arguing about the
> particulars of a scenario that is foundationally incorrect.
You're premise is fundamentally flawed. How can we believe that Eric's
and Robert's notion of "eschatology" has been fulfilled? We wouldn't be
here.
On the contrary, Baha'is believe "prophecy" has been fulfilled with the
return of Christ in Baha'u'llah, and its time to build a better world
instead of blowing it up.
Don't you believe Christ will return?
Jerry
Pat Kohli
QisQos wrote:
> Rober...@msn.com (Robert Arvay) wrote in message
> > But as I look upon the Baha'i preoccupation with World Unity, I cannot
> > help but ask, is this an end times manifestation of a return to the
> > world as Satan would have it? Is the movement for world unity yet
> > another effort in the conspiracy against God?
>
> Robert:
>
> You and Mr. Stetson may be interested in this latest round of
> discussion on end-times dispensationalism which seems to blow holes in
> your eschatological approach to things Christian.
>
> http://www.americanvision.org/page.asp?id=107
>
> http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north222.html
>
> The State of Israel and the claims made by endtimers like yourself
> that this secular state is a necessary condition for the establishment
> of Christ's Kingdom is a fallacy based upon Baptist and other
> dispensationalist heresies, many of which took hold of the popular
> imagination with Hal Lindsey's "Late Great Planet Earth" and the more
> recent "Left Behind " series.
>
> There is very little to differentiate you from the Bahais who claim
> Bahaulluh to have fulfilled the eschatology that you adhere to - but
> the eschatology is common nevertheless. Otherwise neither you nor your
> colleague would have been lured into the Bahaist trap to begin with.
Hey QQ!
Maybe you could help these two Christian ex-Baha'is out, and explain to them
how you got lured into the Bahaist trap to begin with, and how you escaped?
>
> Either way, you are simply spinning your wheels arguing about the
> particulars of a scenario that is foundationally incorrect.
>
> So you may want to start by revising the premises by which you
> approach Our Lord Jesus Christ -
I hope they approach with the same sense of emptiness of self which you
would use,
- Pat
kohli at ameritel.net
Robert Arvay
plane as Moses, in Acts. I word-searched every instance of the word
"Moses" in KJV Acts.
Nor could I find any Biblical passage supporting your concept of the
unforgivable sin against the Holy Spirit.
The passages which I did find on these two topics support my view more
strongly than they support yours.
Matthew 12
31. Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall
be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall
not be forgiven unto men.
32. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall
be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it
shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world
to come.
Romans 5
12. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death
by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13. (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed
when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them
that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who
is the figure of him that was to come.
Ephesians 4
30. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed
unto the day of redemption.
==================
sma...@aol.com (Susan Maneck ) wrote in message news:<20031031145910...@mb-m14.aol.com>...
Susan Maneck
>I was not able to find your reference to Jesus being put on the same
>plane as Moses, in Acts.
Dear Robert,
Here is the passage in question. Its from Acts 3:
22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God
raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all
things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that
prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many
as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days
>Nor could I find any Biblical passage supporting your concept of the
>unforgivable sin against the Holy Spirit.
>The passages which I did find on these two topics support my view more
>strongly than they support yours.
>
>Matthew 12
> 31. Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall
>be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghos
Robert, if you want to know the intent of a passage you have to read it in its
*context.* Look at the passages which immediately proceed Matthew 12:31
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out
devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided
against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided
against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then
his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them
out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is
come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods,
except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me
scattereth abroad.
Then He follows this up and calls such conduct wherein one says good deeds are
coming from the devil as a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. One might argue
that those who evangelicals who would condemn Baha'is for supporting world
peace and justice fall into that category. Why? Because they are thereby
expressing their hatred for the light, and that is not something for which
there is any remedy. As Abdu'l-Baha says: "if a soul has an aversion for the
light of the lamp, he is, as it were, blind, and cannot comprehend the light;
and the blindness is the cause of everlasting banishment from God." I discuss
this in my paper "The Pharisaic Phenomenon."
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/pharisaic.html
warmest, Susan
Robert Arvay
I've stood corrected before on Biblical passages.
But this seems not one of those instances.
However, I'll look up commentary on the passages from Acts 3, and see
if they equate Moses with Jesus, remembering however, that Moses did
sin, whereas Jesus never did.
Concerning Matthew 12:
I had indeed read the prefatory passages you cite, but did not find
them to reverse what I said about the unforgiveable sin.
I'll have to look up the "follow-up" passages you mention (but did not
cite) to see what's there.
Finally, I don't know (personally or of) any "evangelicals who would
condemn Baha'is for supporting world peace and justice..."
Christian missionaries do their best (and many suffer or die in the
quest) to bring to the world the message of peace and justice in
Jesus.
Where we differ on this concept may have been exemplified by Bill
Clinton's misquote of the Bible: *eye has not seen nor ear heard what
WE can accomplish...*
The Bible says that eye has not seen nor ear heard the wonderful
things which GOD has prepared...
We do believe in advocating and advancing world peace through our
individual and corporate spiritual growth. But we are also aware that
"unless the Lord builds the house, he that builds it labors in vain."
Political efforts to establish a world government are currently
following the path predicted by The Revelation, that is, to build a
godless society. And while Baha'is disclaim politics, that is only a
semantical difference with what they are doing.
We believe that God will allow evil to run its fateful course, to reap
the whirlwind, so that no evil man may say that evil did not have its
opportunity to prove itself. When the Satanic world empire collapses,
Jesus will return in person to rescue the world "else no flesh should
survive."
Our great commission then, is not politics, but rather, to preach the
gospel to all the world, baptizing in the name of the Father and of
the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
========
sma...@aol.com (Susan Maneck ) wrote in message news:<20031102221343...@mb-m25.aol.com>...
Jerry Joplin
> ... Look at the passages which immediately proceed Matthew 12:31
> ...
> 30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me
> scattereth abroad.
You know, I was wondering where President Bush got that saying "If
you're not with us, you're against us." I guess he's working on the
scattereth abroad part now. :-)
Jerry
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
> I've stood corrected before on Biblical passages.
> But this seems not one of those instances.
> However, I'll look up commentary on the passages from Acts 3, and see
> if they equate Moses with Jesus, remembering however, that Moses did
> sin, whereas Jesus never did.
Correct that to - "there is no extant record that Jesus sinned". But then
again there's that instance where he instituted a riot and did malicious
damage to the property and business assets of traders in the Temple. He
obviously was not in favour of the free market and was prepared to violently
oppose the capitalists of his day. Of course that might not be "sinning!"
But if it isn't then what is?
Susan Maneck
>individual and corporate spiritual growth. But we are also aware that
>"unless the Lord builds the house, he that builds it labors in vain."
Well, see Baha'i are persuaded that God wants peace, not war.
>Political efforts to establish a world government are currently
>following the path predicted by The Revelation, that is, to build a
>godless society. And while Baha'is disclaim politics, that is only a
>semantical difference with what they are doing.
Baha'is believe in a godless society? Not hardly!
>
>Our great commission then, is not politics, but rather, to preach the
>gospel
Then why criticize the Baha'is from remaining aloof from partisan political
controversies?