Queen Marie never became a Baha'i
george.fleming2
Another lie told by Bahai's that Queen Marie became a Baha'i. This is
strongly refuted in William Millar's book The Baha'i Faith: Its History and
Teachings.................GF
Chapter 13
41. The conversion of Queen Marie to the Baha’i Faith was widely and
joyfully acclaimed by Baha’is as the fulfilment of Baha’u’llah’s prophecy in
the Aqdas (pp. 46-47) that kings would support his Cause (Baha’i World, vol.
II, pp. 173-176, God Passes By, pp. 387-395). However, regarding this
alleged conversion Mother Alexandra, now Mother Superior of the Orthodox
Monastery of the Transfiguration, wrote to Mr. J. Anthony Sistrom on August
7, 1970 as follows: "It is perfectly true that my mother, Queen Marie, did
receive Miss Martha Root several times.....She came at the moment when we
were undergoing very great family and national stress. At such a moment it
was natural that we were receptive to any kind of spiritual message, but it
is quite incorrect to say that my mother or any of us at any time
contemplated becoming a member of the Baha’i faith.
Pat Kohli
"george.fleming2" wrote:
It is interesting how the Mother Superior so clearly recalls what her own mother
was thinking 44 years prior. I can't do that myself.
Here are some letters from Queen Marie of Rumania, about 44 years before the
Mother Superior's 'recollection':
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
APPRECIATIONS OF THE BAHÁ'Í FAITH
BY DOWAGER QUEEN MARIE OF RUMANIA
I was deeply moved on reception of your letter.
Indeed a great light came to me with the message of Bahá'u'lláh and
'Abdu'l-Bahá. It came as all great messages come at an hour of dire grief and
inner conflict and distress, so the seed sank deeply.
My youngest daughter finds also great strength and comfort in the
teachings of the beloved masters.
We pass on the message from month to month and all those we give it to see
a light suddenly lighting before them and much that was obscure and perplexing
becomes simple, luminous and full of hope as never before.
That my open letter was balm to those suffering for the cause is indeed a
great happiness to me, and I take it as a sign that God accepted my humble
tribute.
The occasion given me to be able to express myself publicly, was also His
Work-for indeed it was a chain of circumstances of which each link led me
unwittingly one step further, till suddenly all was clear before my eyes and I
understood why it had been.
Thus does He lead us finally to our ultimate destiny.
Some of those of my caste wonder at and disapprove my courage to step
forward pronouncing words not habitual for Crowned Heads to pronounce, but I
advance by an inner urge I cannot resist. With bowed head I recognize that I too
am but an instrument in greater Hands and rejoice in the knowledge.
Little by little the veil is lifting, grief tore it in two. And grief was
also a step leading me ever nearer truth, therefore do I not cry out against
grief!
May you and those beneath your guidance be blessed and upheld by the
sacred strength of those gone before you.
A woman brought me the other day a Book. I spell it with a capital letter
because it is a glorious Book of love and goodness, strength and beauty.
She gave it to me because she had learned I was in grief and sadness and
wanted to help.... She put it into my hands saying: "You seem to live up to His
teachings." And when I opened the Book I saw it was the word of 'Abdu'l-Bahá,
prophet of love and kindness, and of his father the great teacher of
international goodwill and understanding-of a religion which links all creeds.
Their writings are a great cry toward peace, reaching beyond all limits of
frontiers, above all dissension about rites and dogmas. It is a religion based
upon the inner spirit of God, upon the great, not-to-be-overcome verity that God
is love, meaning just that. It teaches that all hatreds, intrigues, suspicions,
evil words, all aggressive patriotism even, are outside the one essential law of
God, and that special beliefs are but surface things whereas the heart that
beats with divine love knows no tribe nor race.
It is a wondrous Message that Bahá'u'lláh and his son 'Abdu'l-Bahá have
given us. They have not set it up aggressively, knowing that the germ of eternal
truth which lies at its core cannot but take root and spread.
There is only one great verity in it: Love, the mainspring of every
energy, tolerance toward each other, desire of understanding each other, knowing
each other, helping each other, forgiving each other.
It is Christ's Message taken up anew, in the same words almost, but
adapted to the thousand years and more difference that lies between the year one
and today. No man could fail to be better because of this Book.
I commend it to you all. If ever the name of Bahá'u'lláh or 'Abdu'l-Bahá
comes to your attention, do not put their writings from you. Search out their
Books, and let their glorious, peace-bringing, love-creating words and lessons
sink into
your hearts as they have into mine.
One's busy day may seem too full for religion. Or one may have a religion
that satisfies. But the teachings of these gentle, wise and kindly men are
compatible with all religion, and with no religion.
Seek them, and be the happier.
(From the Toronto Daily Star,
May 4, 1926.)
Of course, if you take the stand that creation has no aim, it is easy to
dismiss life and death with a shrug and a "that ends it all; nothing comes
after."
But how difficult it is so to dismiss the universe, our world, the animal
and vegetable world, and man. How clearly one sees a plan in everything. How
unthinkable it is that the miraculous development that has brought man's body,
brain and spirit to what it is, should cease. Why should it cease? Why is it not
logical that it goes on? Not the body, which is only an instrument, but the
invisible spark or fire within the body which makes man one with the wider plan
of creation.
My words are lame, and why should I grope for meanings when I can quote
from one who has said it so much more plainly, 'Abdu'l-Bahá, whom I know would
sanction the use of his words:
"The whole physical creation is perishable. Material bodies are composed
of atoms. When these atoms begin to separate, decomposition sets in. Then comes
what we call death.
"This composition of atoms which constitutes the body or mortal element of
any created being, is temporary. When the power of attraction which holds these
atoms together is withdrawn, the body as such ceases to exist.
"With the soul it is different. The soul is not a combination of elements,
is not composed of many atoms, is of one indivisible substance and therefore
eternal.
"It is entirely out of the order of physical creation; it is immortal! The
soul, being an invisible, indivisible substance, can suffer neither
disintegration nor destruction. Therefore there is no reason for its coming to
an end.
"Consider the aim of creation: Is it possible that all is created to
evolve and develop through countless ages with merely this small goal in view-a
few years of man's life on earth? Is it not unthinkable that this should be the
final aim of existence? Does a man cease to exist when he leaves his body? If
his life comes to an end, then all previous evolution is useless. All has been
for nothing. All those eons of evolution for nothing! Can we imagine that
creation had no greater aim than this?
"The very existence of man's intelligence proves his immortality. His
intelligence is the intermediary between his body and his spirit. When man
allows his spirit, through his soul, to enlighten his understanding, then does
he contain all creation; because man being the culmination of all that went
before, and thus superior to all previous evolutions, contains all the lower
already-evolved world within himself. Illumined by the spirit through the
instrumentality of the soul, man's radiant intelligence makes him the crowning
point of creation!"
Thus does 'Abdu'l-Bahá explain to us the soul-the most convincing
elucidation I know.
(From the Toronto Daily Star, September 28, 1926.)
At first we all conceive of God as something or somebody apart from
ourselves. We think He is something or somebody definite, outside of us, whose
quality, meaning and so-to-say "personality" we can grasp with our human, finite
minds, and express in mere words.
This is not so. We cannot, with our earthly faculties entirely grasp His
meaning-no more than we can really understand the meaning of Eternity.
God is certainly not the old Fatherly gentleman with the long beard that
in our childhood we saw pictured sitting amongst clouds on the throne of
judgment, holding the lightning of vengeance in His hand.
God is something simpler, happier, and yet infinitely more tremendous. God
is All, Everything. He is the power behind all beginnings. He is the
inexhaustible source of supply, of love, of good, of progress, of achievement.
God is therefore Happiness.
His is the voice within us that shows us good and evil.
But mostly we ignore or misunderstand this voice. Therefore did He choose
his Elect to come down amongst us upon earth to make clear His word, His real
meaning. Therefore the Prophets; therefore Christ, Muhammad, Bahá'u'lláh, for
man needs from time to time a voice upon earth to bring God to him, to sharpen
the realization of the existence of the true God. Those voices sent to us had to
become flesh, so that with our earthly ears we should be able to hear and
understand.
Those who read their Bible with "peeled eyes" will find in almost every
line some revelation. But it takes long life, suffering or some sudden event to
tear all at once the veil from our eyes, so that we can truly see....Sorrow and
suffering are the surest and also the most common instructors, the straightest
channel to God-that is to say, to that inner something within each of us which
is God.
Happiness beyond all understanding comes with this revelation that God is
within us, if we will but listen to His voice. We need not seek Him in the
clouds. He is the All-Father whence we came and to whom we shall return when,
having done with this earthly body, we pass onward.
If I have repeated myself, forgive me. There are so many ways of saying
things, but what is important is the truth which lies in all the many ways of
expressing it. (From the Philadelphia "Evening Bulletin," Monday, September 27,
1926.)
"Lately a great hope has come to me from one, 'Abdu'l-Bahá. I have found
in His and His Father, Bahá'u'lláh's Message of Faith all my yearning for real
religion satisfied. If you ever hear of Baha'is or of the Bahá'í Movement which
is known in America, you will know what that is. What I mean: these Books have
strengthened me beyond belief and I am now ready to die any day full of hope.
But I pray God not to take me away yet for I still have a lot of work to do."
"The Bahá'í teaching brings peace and understanding.
"It is like a wide embrace gathering together all those who have long
searched for words of hope.
"It accepts all great prophets gone before, it destroys no other creeds
and leaves all doors open.
"Saddened by the continual strife amongst believers of many confessions
and wearied of their intolerance towards each other, I discovered in the Bahá'í
teaching the real spirit of Christ so often denied and misunderstood:
"Unity instead of strife, hope instead of condemnation, love instead of
hate, and a great reassurance for all men."
"The Bahá'í teaching brings peace to the soul and hope to [sic]
"To those in search of assurance the words of the Father are as a fountain
in the desert after long wandering."
"More than ever today when the world is facing such a crisis of
bewilderment and unrest, must we stand firm in Faith seeking that which binds
together instead of tearing asunder."
"To those searching for light, the Bahá'í Teachings offer a star which
will lead them to deeper understanding, to
assurance, peace and good will with all men."
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From the Toronto Daily Star
http://bahai-library.org/books/appreciations.html
Susan Maneck
>Here are some letters from Queen Marie of Rumania, about 44 years before the
>Mother Superior's 'recollection':
Dear Pat,
Queen Marie's family as well as the Romanian govenment put tremendous pressure
on her after she began to associate herself with the Baha'i Faith. When she
tried to go on pilgrimage in 1931 her ministers prevented her. She wrote the
following to Martha Root:
"Both Ileana and I were cruelly disappointed at having been prevented
going to the holy shrines and of meeting Shoghi Effendi, but at that time were
going through a cruel crisis and every movement I made was being turned against
me and being politically exploited in an unkind way. It caused me a good deal
of suffering and curtailed my liberty most unkindly. There are periods however
when
one must submit to persecution, nevertheless, however high-hearted
one may be, it ever again fills one with pained astonishment when
people are mean and spiteful . I had my child to defend at that
time; she was going through a bitter experience and so I could not
stand up and defy the world. But the beauty of truth remains and
I cling to it through all the vicissitudes of a life become rather
sad . . . "
She then sent Martha Root an appreciation of the Faith to have it published in
the Baha'i World.
warmest,
Susan Maneck
Associate Professor of History
Jackson State University
george.fleming2
kohliCUT...@ameritel.net wrote on 24/1/03 3:03 am:
> It is interesting how the Mother Superior so clearly recalls what her own
> mother was thinking 44 years prior. I can't do that myself.
>
> Here are some letters from Queen Marie of Rumania, about 44 years before the
> Mother Superior's 'recollection':
><Snip>
>From the Toronto Daily Star
>http://bahai-library.org/books/appreciations.html
Pat Kohli
Thank you for this information. It only goes to show what most Europeans
would call **Comsumer advertising bullshit** was used here to sell the Bahai
religion in style American's are good at like promoting coca-cola or
MacDonalds hamburgers. The only thing is the 58 names (including Queen
Marie) used below did not buy the product themselves, after their names were
used in 100's of other newspapers throughout the USA as well as the
newspaper above. Nothing short of a cheap publicity stunt, American style of
course. I could tell you as I sit here now those 58 VIP's would have been
horrified that many of their private letters were used in such a cheap
publicity stunt. This is were the BF propagation shows its deceitful
underbelly best, and will eventually lead to its downfall. The westernised
gimmickery used by mostly US Baha'is to promote the BF is only baggage
carried over from the society they live in.
All It says here is APPRECIATIONS OF THE BAHÁ'Í FAITH. (Bahai World Book)
1941, There is no proof any of these 58 people actually became members of
the Baha'i Faith themselves, and I dare say after their names were used
probably without their consent they would have run a mile rather than talk
to a Baha'i again. Like many westerners at the time these 58 people could
not deny many of the social principles of the Baha'i Faith. But having
studied them all properly all they were and still are are platitudes of most
principles believed to be right anyway by most right thinking Christians.
1. Archduchess Anton of Austria 30. Mr. Renwick J. G. Millard
2. Charles Baudouin 31. Prof. Herbert A. Miller, Bryn Mawr College
3. President Eduard Benes 32. The Hon. Lilian Helen Montagu, J.P., D.H.L.
4. Prof. Norman Bentwich, Hebrew University, Jerusalem 33. Arthur Moore
5. Princess Marie Antoinette de Broglie Aussenac 34. Angela Morgan
6. Prof. E. G. Browse, M.A., M.B., Cambridge University 35. M. Nicholas
7. Luther Burbank 36. Prof. Yore Noguchi
8. Dr. J. Estlin Carpenter, D.Litt., Manchester College, Oxford 37. Rev.
Frederick W. Oases
9. General Renato Piola Caselli 38. Princess Olga of Yugoslavia
10. Rev. T. K. Cheyne, D.Litt., D.D., Oxford University, Fellow of British
Academy 39. Sir Flinders Petrie, archeologist
11. Sir Valentine Chirol 40. Prof. R. F. Piper
12. Rev. K. T. Clung 41. Prof. B. Popovitch
13. Right Hon. The Earl Curzon of Kedleston 42. Charles H. Prism
14. Prof. James Darmesteter, École Des Hautes Études, Paris 43. Dr.
Edmund Privat, University of Geneva
15. Rev. J. Tyssul Davis, B.A. 44. Herbert Putnam, Congressional Library,
Washington, D. C.
16. Dr. August Forel, University of Zurich 45. Eugene Relgis
17. Dr. Herbert Adams Gibbons 46. Ernest Renan
18. Arthur Henderson 47. Prof. Dr. J. Rypka
19. Dr. Henry H. Jessup, D.D. 48. Viscount Herbert Samuel, G.C.B., M.P.
20. President David Starr Jordan 49. Emil Schreiber, Publicist
21. Prof. Jowett, Oxford University 50. Prof. Hart Prasad Shastri,
D.Litt.
22. Prof. Dimitry Kazarov, University of Sofia 51. Col. Baja Jai Prithvi
Bahadur Singh, Raja of Bajang (Nepal)
23. Miss Helen Keller 52. Rev. Griffith J. Sparham
24. Prof. Dr. V. Lenny 53. Sir Ronald Storrs, N.V.C., M.G., C.B.E.
25. Harry Charles Lukach 54. Ex-Governor William Sulzer
26. Dowager Queen Marie of Rumania 55. Shri Purohit Swami
27. Alfred W. Martin, Society for Ethical Culture, New York 56. Leo
Tolstoy
28. President Masaryk of Czechoslovakia 57. Prof. Arminius Vambery,
Hungarian Academy of Pesth
29. Dr. Rokuichiro Masujima, Doyen of Jurisprudence of Japan 58. Sir
Francis Younghusband, K.C.S.I., K.C.I.E
The real turning point for these people came when faced with acceptance that
both the Bab and Baha'u'llah were really the "Return of Christ". This is the
biggest turn off for all in the west, that is why they never accepted who
the Baha'is believe the Bab and Baha'u'llah professed to be.
That is also why many like myself who were attracted by those same social
principles do not in their hearts accept the divine belief's of the Baha'i
Faith. I had to join the Faith to do my investagation of the truth those
58 peole above may have appreciated the Baha'i faith for its many good
social principles, but they were much wiser than me, they never joined.
George Fleming
george.fleming2
sma...@aol.com wrote on 24/1/03 4:29 am:
> She then sent Martha Root an appreciation of the Faith to have it published in
> the Baha'i World.
Yes but she never gave the authority to have the letter splattered all over
the American news media like you silly stupid fecking US Baha'is were good
at doing. Not one of you understood the political situation that Royal
family was in at the time. All you were interested in was promoting the
Baha'i Faith. The country was mostly Orthodox Christian, the Queens husband
was Catholic she was an Anglian, and all her Children were brought up
Orthodix Christians................GF
george.fleming2
> Queen Marie's family as well as the Romanian govenment put tremendous pressure
> on her after she began to associate herself with the Baha'i Faith. When she
> tried to go on pilgrimage in 1931 her ministers prevented her. She wrote the
> following to Martha Root:
This is a typical example of silly Baha'i speak without realising the
political and religious history which concerned this royal family at that
time..............GF
george.fleming2
> She then sent Martha Root an appreciation of the Faith to have it published in
> the Baha'i World.
>
> warmest,
>
> Susan Maneck
> Associate Professor of History
> Jackson State University
>
> http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
If I was a proper researcher I would only accept, such a letter was
authentic (and has not been doctored ) if the Queens signature was on the
original letter. Otherwise the letter published in both the Toronto star
and the 1941 Baha'i World Book would be questionable.
The Queen Died in 1938 and the old saying goes once dead, anything can be
made up, and it would not suprise me the Baha'i Faith were up to a little
bit of forgery here and there.................GF
Queens signature
http://www.crownpointchalet.com/pdf/queen.marie.rumania.pdf
george.fleming2
> the Baha'i World.
Susan & Pat,
I do not think we can argue that Queen M was not attracted to or impressed by the BF. What I quibble with is the Baha'is overstatement of their case. She definitely did not become a member of the BF and it is obvious SE, and Martha Root, wanted to use her royal status to enhance the prestige of the BF. She had a Christian funeral and is buried at the Royal chapel in "Curtea de Arges" While alive she was also interested in Frank Buchman, founder of the Oxford Group movement. I don't know if the Buchmanites make as much of her interest as the BF does. An important point to make is that unlike Shoghi Effendi she actually met Buchman in person.
Funny, but in a biography of 510 pages there is only 1 small paragraph about the BF. The immediate background is the abdication of her son Carol in 1926 and the subsequent dynastic crisis the country was plunged into. Here is the paragraph in full:
"Nevertheless, Carol's abdication was a windfall for the enemies of the dynasty. They seized on his desertion to cut down his mother and succeeded in planting serious doubts about her in the minds of her people. In the desperation and near loss of faith that followed, Queen Marie turned to the teachings of the Baha'i religion, which she discovered a month or so after Carol's flight. The Baha'i call for the unification of humanity under one faith was vastly appealing to the Queen, who had always rebellled against the rigid distinctions separating her immediate family into three religions, and the Baha'i goal of universal peace and its warnings of social upheaval seemed prophetic to the distraught woman. Although she continued to attend the Protestant Church, she said that she prayed "better at home with my Baha-u-llah books and teachings... For the first time I have felt religion" said the woman who had tried and failed throughout her life to find the unquestioning belief she throught she ought to have and now needed for support".
This paragraph is immediately followed by one relating to Buchman:
"Another influence during that unhappy winter was Frank Buchman, an American evangelist and self-styled "soul surgeon", founder of the Oxford Group movement and his own religion, A First Century Christian Fellowship. Sent to Marie by American friends living in Turkey, Buchman spent some weeks at Cotroceni Palace, reading from the Bible with the Queen and her children and "spreading his kind, uniting atmosphere over us all"
Source , Hannah Pakula, The Last Romantic - A Biogrpahy of Queen Marie of Roumania, Weidenfeld and Nicholson, 1985, p. 337
*********************************************************************
MORE MEETINGS WITH BUCHMAN:
Queen M made a voyage on board the SS Leviathan to the USA in 1926 and Buchman was also on board. The book says that she "engaged in soul-searching discussions with her old mentor, Frank Buchman, also on the Leviathan" page 344.
While she was in the US, she was under pressure not to see Buchman
"Another source of strife was Frank Buchman. Pressed by their official hosts to push Buchman aside, Marie and her children balked. Public repudiation of an old friend, the Queen said, was against their royal "creed".
page 350.
Sounds to me like she was as interested in Buchman as Baha'i!
GF
george.fleming2
They both cannot be telling the truth, which one was the liar? ....GF
However the idea came to her, Martha acted on it in characteristic fashion: when she arrived in Bucharest
in 1923, she sent the Queen a copy of Esselmont's Bahá'u'lláh and the New Era. The Queen later said that the book had arrived "at an hour of dire grief." She read it cover to cover, late into the night, and two days later granted Martha an audience in the Controceni Palace. Before long, the Queen embraced the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh, becoming the first monarch to do so. Some years later, during another visit, the Queen presented Martha with a silver and gold brooch, a "family treasure." Martha sent it to Wilmette to be sold to raise funds for the House of Worship. It was bought by another Bahá'í, Willard Hatch, who then gave it to the Bahá'í International Archives.
http://www.planetbahai.org/articles/2001/ar032401c.html
Chapter 13 William Millar's book
Paul Hammond
ROTFLMAO!
Now I've seen it all! Here is George, blaming Susan and Pat for the
actions of the US NSA decades ago - probably before either of them
were born. Blaming me for Bloody Sunday is a mere nothing in
comparison!
George, get yourself a clue. If Queen Marie knew that her
appreciation was going to be published in the Baha'i World,
then she can't have wanted her sympathy to the Baha'i cause
to be kept secret.
How can you pretend to know Queen Marie's mind better than
published documents, written in her own words, and volutarily
offered to the Baha'i Authorities of her day for publication.
You've lost this one as well. Give it up, already!
Paul
Paul Hammond
How so?
And, I notice that you have deleted Queen Marie's words without
comment, because they contradict your argument.
Like I've been saying since you started your William Millar
kick - that book is deeply unreliable, because he published
in it every rumour he knew that was detrimental to the
Baha'i Faith, without bothering to check his facts first.
I think we now have an answer to your $64,000 dollar question
on Beliefnet - clearly, it is the Mother Superior who is
lying. Maybe, being now an official within the Christian
church, she is ashamed to admit to her mother's Baha'i
past.
Paul
Paul Hammond
> The real turning point for these people came when faced with acceptance that
> both the Bab and Baha'u'llah were really the "Return of Christ". This is the
> biggest turn off for all in the west, that is why they never accepted who
> the Baha'is believe the Bab and Baha'u'llah professed to be.
>
Did you not read the text of Queen Marie's appreciation that
Pat just posted?
This was not a turn off for her, it was a point of great appeal.
Here, I'll extract the relevant passages for you:
"It is a wondrous Message that Bahá'u'lláh and his son 'Abdu'l-Bahá have
given us. They have not set it up aggressively, knowing that the germ of eternal
truth which lies at its core cannot but take root and spread.
There is only one great verity in it: Love, the mainspring of every
energy, tolerance toward each other, desire of understanding each other, knowing
each other, helping each other, forgiving each other.
It is Christ's Message taken up anew, in the same words almost, but
adapted to the thousand years and more difference that lies between the year one
and today. No man could fail to be better because of this Book.
I commend it to you all. If ever the name of Bahá'u'lláh or 'Abdu'l-Bahá
comes to your attention, do not put their writings from you. Search out their
Books, and let their glorious, peace-bringing, love-creating words and lessons
sink into your hearts as they have into mine."
Note that she sees Abdu'l Baha's words explicitly as "Christ's Message,
taken up anew... but adapted to the thousand years [since Christ]"
Paul
george.fleming2
paha...@onetel.net.uk wrote on 24/1/03 4:01 pm:
> Did you not read the text of Queen Marie's appreciation that
> Pat just posted?
>
> This was not a turn off for her, it was a point of great appeal.
>
> Here, I'll extract the relevant passages for you:
Its irrevelant, the Queen was dead three years, and unless her signature is
on the original letter, then we don't know if the letter is 100% true or the
Baha'is doctored that letter. Furthermore there is nowhere in the letter
where the Queen says she believes both the Bab and Baha'u'llah are the
return of Christ. The qualification to become a Baha'i.
Just thinking the social principles of the Baha'i faith are wonderful is not
a qualification to become a Baha'i. Anyway most Baha'i principles are only
platitudes believed by most people from the Christian west anyway.....GF
Cal E. Rollins
What does it say? --Cal
george.fleming2
Rollins at crol...@webtv.net wrote on 24/1/03 9:36 pm:
> George, my WebTV says the site on "The Queen's signature" can't be used.
> What does it say? --Cal
Cal try this website, go to guest list, then click Queen Marie's name and
up comes a photograph of her signature which could be used to check all
original letters of her's were genuine, and have not been forged.
The articl in the Toronto star appeared three years after the Queen had
died. Its easy to doctor a letter after someone has died.....GF
http://www.crownpointchalet.com/guests.html
Cal E. Rollins
"If Queen Marie had brought her kingdom of white folk into the Faith en
masse, would we have blocked them from entering by troops because she or
they didn't understand what they were getting into?"
Now if Jerry Falwell brings his folks into the Faith unbraked or
unblocked that will be a test for me. --Cal
Paul Hammond
> in article 20030123232955...@mb-ch.aol.com, Susan Maneck at
> sma...@aol.com wrote on 24/1/03 4:29 am:
>
> > She then sent Martha Root an appreciation of the Faith to have it published in
> > the Baha'i World.
> >
> > warmest,
> >
> > Susan Maneck
> > Associate Professor of History
> > Jackson State University
> >
> > http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
>
> If I was a proper researcher I would only accept, such a letter was
> authentic (and has not been doctored ) if the Queens signature was on the
> original letter. Otherwise the letter published in both the Toronto star
> and the 1941 Baha'i World Book would be questionable.
>
But, if it appeared in Millar's book, it would be totally
trustworthy?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Paul
Paul Hammond
> in article 20030123232955...@mb-ch.aol.com, Susan Maneck at
> sma...@aol.com wrote on 24/1/03 4:29 am:
>
> > She then sent Martha Root an appreciation of the Faith to have it published in
> > the Baha'i World.
>
> Susan & Pat,
>
> I do not think we can argue that Queen M was not attracted to or impressed
> by the BF. What I quibble with is the Baha'is overstatement of their case.
> She definitely did not become a member of the BF
Are you sure? Why?
> and it is obvious SE, and
> Martha Root, wanted to use her royal status to enhance the prestige of the
> BF.
Indeed - as the current UHJ wanted to use Cathy Freeman's status
to enhance the profile of the BF until they discovered
she'd lost her voting rights for speaking up on aboriginal
issues.
I see nothing wrong with that in principle. It is not
obvious that Martha Root was lying.
> She had a Christian funeral and is buried at the Royal chapel in "Curtea
> de Arges"
And so, if you have a Christian ceremony when you die, that
will prove that for the last 13 years you were *not* a Baha'i?
Try again!
> While alive she was also interested in Frank Buchman, founder of
> the Oxford Group movement. I don't know if the Buchmanites make as much of
> her interest as the BF does. An important point to make is that unlike
> Shoghi Effendi she actually met Buchman in person.
>
Indeed - she was a spiritually interested person, that is clear.
I don't see why it is important that she met him. Apparently,
she tried to meet Shoghi too, but her family didn't let her.
<lots of very familiar stuff snipped>
Paul
Paul Hammond
> in article c977f97b.03012...@posting.google.com, Paul Hammond at
> paha...@onetel.net.uk wrote on 24/1/03 4:01 pm:
>
> > Did you not read the text of Queen Marie's appreciation that
> > Pat just posted?
> >
> > This was not a turn off for her, it was a point of great appeal.
> >
> > Here, I'll extract the relevant passages for you:
>
> Its irrevelant, the Queen was dead three years, and unless her signature is
> on the original letter, then we don't know if the letter is 100% true or the
> Baha'is doctored that letter. Furthermore there is nowhere in the letter
> where the Queen says she believes both the Bab and Baha'u'llah are the
> return of Christ. The qualification to become a Baha'i.
>
Riiight!
a) its a forgery,
and
b) I'm going to pretend that her words *don't* shoot my argument
out of the water.
Right, George. Present your evidence that the apprecitation
written by Queen Marie was a forgery then. Go on.
You can't just say "well, it might be, and if it is that
makes me right".
> Just thinking the social principles of the Baha'i faith are wonderful is not
> a qualification to become a Baha'i. Anyway most Baha'i principles are only
> platitudes believed by most people from the Christian west anyway.....GF
But, you said that believing that Baha'u'llah was the return
of Christ was a big turn off for all these people.
For Queen Marie, it was clearly a point of great appeal
that the teachings of Baha'u'llah echo those of Christ.
I think that Queen Marie would have researched the faith
well enough to realise that the Baha'is believe this about
Baha'u'llah.
So, show me again where the fact that Baha'is believe
Baha'u'llah to be the second coming actually put
Queen Marie off, as you claimed.
Paul
Pat Kohli
"george.fleming2" wrote:
> in article 3E30AD0C...@ameritel.net, Pat Kohli at
> kohliCUT...@ameritel.net wrote on 24/1/03 3:03 am:
>
> > It is interesting how the Mother Superior so clearly recalls what her own
> > mother was thinking 44 years prior. I can't do that myself.
> >
> > Here are some letters from Queen Marie of Rumania, about 44 years before the
> > Mother Superior's 'recollection':
> ><Snip>
> >From the Toronto Daily Star
> >http://bahai-library.org/books/appreciations.html
>
> Pat Kohli
>
> Thank you for this information. It only goes to show what most Europeans
> would call **Comsumer advertising bullshit** was used here to sell the Bahai
> religion in style American's are good at like promoting coca-cola or
> MacDonalds hamburgers.
Queen Marie's letters were published in a Toronto newspaper, Toronto
Ontario,
Ontario Canada.
> The only thing is the 58 names (including Queen
> Marie) used below did not buy the product themselves, after their names were
> used in 100's of other newspapers throughout the USA as well as the
> newspaper above.
So, in addition to disputing that Queen Marie was a Baha'i, you now
assert that
August Forel (#16), was not a Baha'i? This is the man who had a tablet
addressed
to him. Other places do say he was a famous Baha'i; but apparently you
know better?
http://www.adherents.com/largecom/fam_bahai.html
> Nothing short of a cheap publicity stunt, American style of
> course. I could tell you as I sit here now those 58 VIP's would have been
> horrified that many of their private letters were used in such a cheap
> publicity stunt.
Which one of these endorsements was from a private letter - most of them
are
clearly labelled as coming from _public_ sources, such as various
periodicals! Some of these are even in French, and, FYI, us yanks are
almost as monolingual as our cousins in the UK, so, even though this
might be from the US, 60 years ago, it reflects an internationalism not
found around here now.
> This is were the BF propagation shows its deceitful
> underbelly best, and will eventually lead to its downfall.
Your decitful back, belly and tail, are what's showing!
> The westernised
> gimmickery used by mostly US Baha'is to promote the BF is only baggage
> carried over from the society they live in.
>
Some old yada yada yada from George!
>
> All It says here is APPRECIATIONS OF THE BAHÁ'Í FAITH. (Bahai World Book)
> 1941, There is no proof any of these 58 people actually became members of
> the Baha'i Faith themselves,
Most of them weren't. If you want a list of prominent people who were
Baha'is,
that is another list. http://www.adherents.com/largecom/fam_bahai.html
This was a list of people making public endorsements of the
BF, and, in most cases, it seems they do so as outsiders, rather than
simply
trying to advance their own interests.
> and I dare say after their names were used
> probably without their consent they would have run a mile rather than talk
> to a Baha'i again.
You'd just about 'dare say' anything, I'd dare to say.
> Like many westerners at the time these 58 people could
> not deny many of the social principles of the Baha'i Faith. But having
> studied them all properly all they were and still are are platitudes of most
> principles believed to be right anyway by most right thinking Christians.
>
Christians? Are Christians somehow special, or more inclined to 'right
thiking', in contrast w/ Sikhs, or Muslims?
Speak for yourself. Tolstoy had his own religious ideas, and I doubt he
was hung
up about a return of Christ w/o the world exploding or something.
>
> That is also why many like myself who were attracted by those same social
> principles do not in their hearts accept the divine belief's of the Baha'i
> Faith. I had to join the Faith to do my investagation of the truth those
> 58 peole above may have appreciated the Baha'i faith for its many good
> social principles, but they were much wiser than me, they never joined.
>
At least one did, join, and I suspect a few others that I have not
looked into.
Susan Maneck
>Indeed - as the current UHJ wanted to use Cathy Freeman's status
>to enhance the profile of the BF until they discovered
>she'd lost her voting rights for speaking up on aboriginal
>issues.
Dear Paul,
You are badly misinformed on this matter. She lost her voting rights as a
result of problems with the Baha'i laws on marriage and chastity, not because
of any stand she took on aboriginal rights. The latter is simply something
Freddy invented. Where did you hear that the House of Justice wanted to use
her status?
george.fleming2
sma...@aol.com wrote on 25/1/03 7:32 am:
>>
>> Indeed - as the current UHJ wanted to use Cathy Freeman's status
>> to enhance the profile of the BF until they discovered
>> she'd lost her voting rights for speaking up on aboriginal
>> issues.
>
> Dear Paul,
>
> You are badly misinformed on this matter. She lost her voting rights as a
> result of problems with the Baha'i laws on marriage and chastity, not because
> of any stand she took on aboriginal rights. The latter is simply something
> Freddy invented. Where did you hear that the House of Justice wanted to use
> her status?
Just as well Queen Marie never became a Baha'i because according to her life
story she would have put Princess Diana into the slow lane for having
affairs outside her marriage. The Baha'i laws on marriage and chastity
would have come down on her very hard, or then again, would they have turned
a blind eye as she was such a good catch for the Baha'i Faith.
It makes me chuckle to myself everytime I think of that large portrait (or
photograph) they have of Queen Marie hanging in the reception rooms for
VIP's at the world center in Haifa. They dont have one of Martha Root or
any other Baha'i pioneers who give their very lives cannon-foddering it all
over the world to get new recruits for the Baha'i Faith............GF
Humble Learner
support of Baha'u'llah she did not expressly identify herself as a
Baha'i, she did do so in at least one document, despite what her
daughter later wrote.
The Queen received a letter from a Baha'i woman who moved to the holy
land and purchased the mansion of Mazrieh. The woman wrote about this
to her friend the Queen, and informed her majesty how pleased she was
to know that Baha'u'llah had walked those very rooms. The Queen
responded how remarkable it was that her friend had also found the
Baha'i Faith. The Queen then stated, expressly, that she was herself
a Baha'i. I believe this is the only known instance of an unequivocal
statement where the Queen so stated.
This is in a brief article, in an early volume of The Baha'i World,
about this incident and includes the text of the correspondence.
Humble Learner
george.fleming2
at humblel...@yahoo.com wrote on 25/1/03 1:23 pm:
Can you pleas supply the documentation for this.......GF
Pat Kohli
Humble Learner wrote:
Thanks for the additional info!
- Pat
Cal E. Rollins
antechamber of the House of Justice building? Since he is considered
gay, is on some lists on Internet as being so, and is stated so by
Arthur Dahl, his collector and former member of the American NSA plus
financial consultant to the Guardian I read somewhere in years past, I
am a astounded that his paintings have not been burned. Particularly
since Dahl writes in his preface of the book on Tobey that Mark lived
with a companion for 30 years. Maybe fame does make something of a
difference in how Baha'is are treated in observance of Baha'i laws? Was
Cathy aborigine? Maybe that's why she got trounced on? Did she get
sanctioned before she was famous and could be used?
Did you happen to see Tobey's work when you were working there at the
World Centre? --Cal
Cal E. Rollins
I heard that if you're a Baha'i and don't have a Baha'i burial or get
cremated you get your administrative rights removed. Is that true?
--Cal
Humble Learner
Queen Marie of Rumania to the Baha'i Faith, and have asked for
verification that she unequivocally stated that she is a Baha'i.
Regardless of her daughter's recollections half a century later, the
passion of the Queen's testimonies placed by herself in Canadian and
American newspapers is, at the least, full enough evidence of her
relationship to the Baha'i Faith being a whole lot more than merely
having been nice to Martha Root and inviting her to tea a few times,
as the Queen's daughter later characterizes the relationship. We
don't have to match the integrity of Martha's recollection with that
of the Queen's daughter -- we have the Queen's own words, and they
will speak for themselves.
I have looked in the volumes I have of Star of the West and The Baha'i
World for the article I once read that contained the full text of the
correspondence from the Queen I earlier mentioned, but I cannot locate
it. If I had found it, you would want to see a photocopy of it. If I
found a photocopy of it, you would want the original of the signature
examined. If you examined the original, you would probably still
object. Nevertheless, I will produce what I have; perhaps it will
urge you to approach the Baha'i Faith with an open and unbiased mind.
In "The Priceless Pearl" p. 116 we find Ruhiyyih Khanum quoting a
letter from Shoghi Effendi to the Queen. In it he refers to "Your
Majesty's sustained interest in and admiration for the Baha'i
Teachings." He then states that her testimonies in the newspapers
will inspire Baha'i communities around the world in their efforts to
spread the Baha'i Faith.
So far in this letter, both of these statements are consistent with
her being, at the least, a close friend of the Baha'i Faith. In this
same letter, Shoghi Effendi states that he is sending the Queen a
photograph of the progress on the Baha'i House of Worship, to be
personally delivered to the Queen on his behalf by a Mrs. McNeill.
On the next page of the book, Ruhiyyih Khanum writes, 'The Mrs.
McNeill mentioned in this letter lived near Akka in the Mansion of
Mazra'ih once occupied by Baha'u'llah. She had known the Queen as a
child in Malta and when she learned through the Guardian of the
Queen's interest in the Faith she informed her of her own interest and
of the associations of the house she lived in. The Queen had written
to her: "It was indeed nice to hear from you and to think that you
are of all things, living near Haifa, and are, as I am, a follower of
the Baha'i teachings ... the house you live in ... made precious by
its associations with the Man we all venerate..."'
"... as I am, a follower of the Baha'i teachings."
That's the most explicit statement we have from the pen of the Queen,
as far as I know.
May we have the next subject?
H.L.
Pat Kohli
Paul Hammond wrote:
> "george.fleming2" <george....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<BA56F147.E6E0%george....@ntlworld.com>...
> > in article 20030123232955...@mb-ch.aol.com, Susan Maneck at
> > sma...@aol.com wrote on 24/1/03 4:29 am:
> >
> > > She then sent Martha Root an appreciation of the Faith to have it published in
> > > the Baha'i World.
> >
> > Susan & Pat,
> >
> > I do not think we can argue that Queen M was not attracted to or impressed
> > by the BF. What I quibble with is the Baha'is overstatement of their case.
> > She definitely did not become a member of the BF
>
> Are you sure? Why?
Mother Superior said so? Forget what HRH said herself!
>
>
> > and it is obvious SE, and
> > Martha Root, wanted to use her royal status to enhance the prestige of the
> > BF.
>
> Indeed - as the current UHJ wanted to use Cathy Freeman's status
> to enhance the profile of the BF until they discovered
> she'd lost her voting rights for speaking up on aboriginal
> issues.
>
I missed the UHJ trying to make hay w/ Cathy Freeman. I do remember all the discussion here, though.
(snip)
Best wishes!
- Pat
kohli at ameritel.net
Paul Hammond
> in article 20030125023204...@mb-cg.aol.com, Susan Maneck at
> sma...@aol.com wrote on 25/1/03 7:32 am:
>
> >>
> >> Indeed - as the current UHJ wanted to use Cathy Freeman's status
> >> to enhance the profile of the BF until they discovered
> >> she'd lost her voting rights for speaking up on aboriginal
> >> issues.
> >
> > Dear Paul,
> >
> > You are badly misinformed on this matter. She lost her voting rights as a
> > result of problems with the Baha'i laws on marriage and chastity, not because
> > of any stand she took on aboriginal rights. The latter is simply something
> > Freddy invented. Where did you hear that the House of Justice wanted to use
> > her status?
>
> Just as well Queen Marie never became a Baha'i because according to her life
> story she would have put Princess Diana into the slow lane for having
> affairs outside her marriage. The Baha'i laws on marriage and chastity
> would have come down on her very hard, or then again, would they have turned
> a blind eye as she was such a good catch for the Baha'i Faith.
>
And, of course, in your life you never did anything non-Baha'i.
Like, say, drinking too much?
And, somehow, the Baha'is didn't throw you out for that!
What a story...
Paul
Paul Hammond
Thanks Cal,
that is a peculiarly amusing thought.
Do dead people normally get to vote in Baha'i elections then?
Or is that only in Chicago?
Paul
Susan Maneck
>> I heard that if you're a Baha'i and don't have a Baha'i burial or get
>> cremated you get your administrative rights removed.
You lose your voting rights just for dying. But if your voting rights
predecease you, you can still get a Baha'i burial, providing you die.
george.fleming2
Rollins at crol...@webtv.net wrote on 26/1/03 2:05 am:
Cal, i happened to like Tobey's work at one time. It was through doing an
esay on him Hofman, De kooning, etc etc and the other more well known
american abstract expressionists in !st year at art college i first heard of
the Baha'i Faith, But I never seen his paintings while in Haifa. i dare say
if they have any they would be in the archives, and not just hung up around
the place for security reasons. They may have framed copies or posters
hanging in some of the offices, but I would question that. Baha'is are very
conserative when it comes to visual art and although they may have used the
artists wellknown name in promoting the faith, I have not met many Baha'is
who were jumping up and down with excitment over Mark Tobey's paintings.
But they do have portrait's of the two Queens associated with the Faith
hanging in the main space opposite all the nine House members offices. This
in itself shows how conserative and Monarchy loving the leaders of the
Baha'i Faith really are.
GF
GF
george.fleming2
in article b6d66450.03012...@posting.google.com, Humble Learner
at humblel...@yahoo.com wrote on 26/1/03 2:54 am:
> You have stated that the Baha'is have exaggerated the relationship of
> Queen Marie of Rumania to the Baha'i Faith, and have asked for
> verification that she unequivocally stated that she is a Baha'i.
>
> Regardless of her daughter's recollections half a century later, the
> passion of the Queen's testimonies placed by herself in Canadian and
> American newspapers
Dear Humble learner,
Not only have I stated about the exaggeration, you are like many other
Baha'is who openly write and speak open errors without realising you might
be doing it. Since when did Queen Marie place any of her letters in any
newpaper? She would have had to come back from the dead to do it, as she
died in 1938 and the newspaper articles appeared after the Baha'i World was
published in 1941.................GF
Dermod Ryder
"Paul Hammond" <paha...@onetel.net.uk> wrote in message
news:c977f97b.03012...@posting.google.com...
> "george.fleming2" <george....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:<BA56F147.E6E0%george....@ntlworld.com>...
> > in article 20030123232955...@mb-ch.aol.com, Susan
Maneck at
> > sma...@aol.com wrote on 24/1/03 4:29 am:
> >
> > > She then sent Martha Root an appreciation of the Faith to have
it published in
> > > the Baha'i World.
> >
> > Susan & Pat,
> >
> > I do not think we can argue that Queen M was not attracted to or
impressed
> > by the BF. What I quibble with is the Baha'is overstatement of
their case.
> > She definitely did not become a member of the BF
>
> Are you sure? Why?
Because she never signed a delaration card or was interviewed by the
LSA or ABM? doubtless she never attended Ruhi either!
Dermod Ryder
> Just as well Queen Marie never became a Baha'i because according to
her life
> story she would have put Princess Diana into the slow lane for
having
> affairs outside her marriage. The Baha'i laws on marriage and
chastity
> would have come down on her very hard, or then again, would they
have turned
> a blind eye as she was such a good catch for the Baha'i Faith.
I've also seen this somewhere - that old Queen Marie was overly fond
of the horizontal jogging and indeed had somewhat of a reputation as
an athlete.
> It makes me chuckle to myself everytime I think of that large
portrait (or
> photograph) they have of Queen Marie hanging in the reception rooms
for
> VIP's at the world center in Haifa. They dont have one of Martha
Root or
> any other Baha'i pioneers who give their very lives cannon-foddering
it all
> over the world to get new recruits for the Baha'i
Faith............GF
I heard they took yours down and destroyed all that work you did for
them.
Dermod Ryder
No! It also happens in West Belfast and certain other areas around
here. Some folk are so democratically inclined that they exercise
their right to vote whether dead or alive.
Dermod
>
> Paul
Dermod Ryder
"Susan Maneck " <sma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030126031716...@mb-mv.aol.com...
> >
> >> I heard that if you're a Baha'i and don't have a Baha'i burial or
get
> >> cremated you get your administrative rights removed.
>
> You lose your voting rights just for dying. But if your voting
rights
> predecease you, you can still get a Baha'i burial, providing you
die.
Are you absolutely sure about that?
Dermod Ryder
"Pat Kohli" <kohliCUT...@ameritel.net> wrote in message
news:3E3365B2...@ameritel.net...
> > Indeed - as the current UHJ wanted to use Cathy Freeman's status
> > to enhance the profile of the BF until they discovered
> > she'd lost her voting rights for speaking up on aboriginal
> > issues.
> >
>
> I missed the UHJ trying to make hay w/ Cathy Freeman. I do remember
all the discussion here, though.
That was the missed opportunity. If they had known she would acquire
such fame they would never have removed her rights.
Dermod.
george.fleming2
Grim_Re...@btinternet.com wrote on 26/1/03 5:07 pm:
> I heard they took yours down and destroyed all that work you did for
> them.
Well thats their perogative other Baha'is purchased a wallhanging I made
for the centenary of the passing of Baha'u'llah in 1992. It was sold at a
summer school to raise money for their fund and the purchaser's presented
the work piece to the World Center. It belongs to them, and if you heard
that they destroyed it good luck to them. I wont be losing no sleep over it.
GF
Paul Hammond
> in article b6d66450.03012...@posting.google.com, Humble Learner
> at humblel...@yahoo.com wrote on 26/1/03 2:54 am:
>
> > You have stated that the Baha'is have exaggerated the relationship of
> > Queen Marie of Rumania to the Baha'i Faith, and have asked for
> > verification that she unequivocally stated that she is a Baha'i.
> >
> > Regardless of her daughter's recollections half a century later, the
> > passion of the Queen's testimonies placed by herself in Canadian and
> > American newspapers
>
> Dear Humble learner,
>
> Not only have I stated about the exaggeration, you are like many other
> Baha'is who openly write and speak open errors without realising you might
> be doing it.
Is this the pot calling the kettle black?
"I am not overlooking the ***** translation of the Aqdas in the
1890s, because I didn't know about it (ignorance is not a sin)"?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Since when did Queen Marie place any of her letters in any
> newpaper? She would have had to come back from the dead to do it, as she
> died in 1938 and the newspaper articles appeared after the Baha'i World was
> published in 1941.................GF
So, like he said, if I provided the reference, you'd ask to see
a photocopy, if I provided a photocopy, you'd ask to see the
original, and if I provided the original you'd say the
signature was a forgery.
Yeah, he's got you pegged all right.
How does it feel to have no one take you seriously, George?
Paul
Paul Hammond
ROTFLMAO! See, humble learner predicted this behaviour, and
here you are proving him right.
Yet, anything that Miller says is automatically the gospel
truth, though his animus against the Baha'i Faith is
documented, and bigger than yours!!
You are such a bullshitter, George!
Paul
Pat Kohli
"george.fleming2" wrote:
> in article b6d66450.03012...@posting.google.com, Humble Learner
> at humblel...@yahoo.com wrote on 26/1/03 2:54 am:
>
> > You have stated that the Baha'is have exaggerated the relationship of
> > Queen Marie of Rumania to the Baha'i Faith, and have asked for
> > verification that she unequivocally stated that she is a Baha'i.
> >
> > Regardless of her daughter's recollections half a century later, the
> > passion of the Queen's testimonies placed by herself in Canadian and
> > American newspapers
>
> Dear Humble learner,
>
> Not only have I stated about the exaggeration, you are like many other
> Baha'is who openly write and speak open errors without realising you might
George! You state things that are false even after you have been shown they
are wrong!
>
> be doing it. Since when did Queen Marie place any of her letters in any
> newpaper?
I don't know if she sent them herself, or if Martha Root did. In any event,
the Toronto Star published the letters in 1926. It is right here at the
"Appreciations" link I gave you on Thursday.
http://bahai-library.org/books/appreciations.html
> She would have had to come back from the dead to do it, as she
> died in 1938 and the newspaper articles appeared after the Baha'i World was
> published in 1941.................GF
You are confused. The original letters from Queen Marie were published in
1926. Somene collected a buch of endorsements from prominent people, and that
collection was from 1941, after all of its contents were printed elsewhere, and
could be gathered!
Pat Kohli
Dermod Ryder wrote:
Is this speculative, or do you have other examples of NSAs taking no
action on similar situations, due to someone being an Olympic Gold Medal
winner?
george.fleming2
kohliCUT...@ameritel.net wrote on 27/1/03 1:22 am:
>
> You are confused. The original letters from Queen Marie were published in
> 1926. Somene collected a buch of endorsements from prominent people, and that
> collection was from 1941, after all of its contents were printed elsewhere,
> and could be gathered!
Thats correct it was 1941 they all appeared below. Queen Marie died in 1938.
Reprinted from
THE BAHÁ'Í WORLD, VOL., VIII
BAHÁ'Í PUBLISHING COMMITTEE
WILMETTE, ILLINOIS 1941
And you are right 1t was 1926 the Toronto Star published her letter But we
dont know whether she had sent the letter to Martha Root and she and the
lacal Baha'is had the letter published to propagate the Baha'i Faith. Along
with another advertisment. I doubt if the Queen would have sent the letter
to the newspaper herself.
Also like numerous Baha'i publications in newspapers. The Baha' pay to have
them advertised themselves. Was it part of an advertisment with the letter
added or was it and article written by a journalist wuth the letter
included? Unless one sees the actual copy of the newspaper it is hard to
tell by what is written in the Baha'i World 1941...........GF
Dermod Ryder
> > That was the missed opportunity. If they had known she would
acquire
> > such fame they would never have removed her rights.
>
> Is this speculative, or do you have other examples of NSAs taking no
> action on similar situations, due to someone being an Olympic Gold
Medal
> winner?
They took the action BEFORE she achieved fame - had they known
beforehand she would have achieved fame they would never have taken
the action.
Is this similar to the situation here where, many moons ago, a well
known Iranian BIGS here was caught flagrante delicto, left a long term
souvenir of his coming and got off scot free of sanctions from the
LSA/NSA because he came of a "good" Bahai family than than being a
ding-dong from the outback? I do wonder and think that the
application of the doctrine of legal precedcent might give the
impression that Bahai jurisprudence is based on some concept of
fairness and equality.
Dermod.
Paul Hammond
> in article 3E3489F1...@ameritel.net, Pat Kohli at
> kohliCUT...@ameritel.net wrote on 27/1/03 1:22 am:
>
>
> >
> > You are confused. The original letters from Queen Marie were published in
> > 1926. Somene collected a buch of endorsements from prominent people, and that
> > collection was from 1941, after all of its contents were printed elsewhere,
> > and could be gathered!
>
> Thats correct it was 1941 they all appeared below. Queen Marie died in 1938.
>
> Reprinted from
> THE BAHÁ'Í WORLD, VOL., VIII
> BAHÁ'Í PUBLISHING COMMITTEE
> WILMETTE, ILLINOIS 1941
>
> And you are right 1t was 1926 the Toronto Star published her letter But we
> dont know whether she had sent the letter to Martha Root and she and the
> lacal Baha'is had the letter published to propagate the Baha'i Faith. Along
> with another advertisment. I doubt if the Queen would have sent the letter
> to the newspaper herself.
>
But, what we *do* know is that in these letters, in her own
words, Queen Marie explicitly referred to herself as a Baha'i.
You are wrong, George, and all your twisting and turning
and talk of irrelevant side issues will not obscure that
fact.
Do you still think the Miller book is the best thing
since sliced bread?
Paul
John R MacLeod
"Dermod Ryder" <Grim_Re...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:b138q1$ula4g$5...@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de...
>
> They took the action BEFORE she achieved fame - had they known
> beforehand she would have achieved fame they would never have taken
> the action.
There are degrees of fame - to my memory she was quite famous in Australia
before the incident you refer to.
Dermod Ryder
"John R MacLeod" <jrma...@consultant.com> wrote in message
news:b13vos$v7h0e$1...@ID-73584.news.dfncis.de...
But not on the world stage. Seeing as how she wasn't Iranian fundie
loony or white middle class, she had no chance of escaping the Bahai
Secret Police enquiring into her private life. That is the message I
get from my, albeit limited, experience of the Bahai system. One
other message I got is how much they love to brown nose the celebrity.
But good for the girl, she got that well deserved world stage and the
assholes who terminated her failed to get their cheap publicity.
Pat Kohli
"george.fleming2" wrote:
> in article 3E3489F1...@ameritel.net, Pat Kohli at
> kohliCUT...@ameritel.net wrote on 27/1/03 1:22 am:
>
>
> >
> > You are confused. The original letters from Queen Marie were published in
> > 1926. Somene collected a buch of endorsements from prominent people, and that
> > collection was from 1941, after all of its contents were printed elsewhere,
> > and could be gathered!
>
> Thats correct it was 1941 they all appeared below. Queen Marie died in 1938.
>
> Reprinted from
> THE BAHÁ'Í WORLD, VOL., VIII
> BAHÁ'Í PUBLISHING COMMITTEE
> WILMETTE, ILLINOIS 1941
>
> And you are right 1t was 1926 the Toronto Star published her letter
Thank you George. Please kick my teeth out when I suggest you _never_ acknowledge
any mistakes; clearly you have.
> But we
> dont know whether she had sent the letter to Martha Root and she and the
> lacal Baha'is had the letter published to propagate the Baha'i Faith.
Some things get difficult with the passing of time.
> Along
> with another advertisment. I doubt if the Queen would have sent the letter
> to the newspaper herself.
>
> Also like numerous Baha'i publications in newspapers. The Baha' pay to have
> them advertised themselves. Was it part of an advertisment with the letter
> added or was it and article written by a journalist wuth the letter
> included?
I wouldn't know.
Pat Kohli
Dermod Ryder wrote:
See, you really do agree the community would do better with a bit of
discipline!
Humble Learner
of improperly placing praises of the Baha'i Faith she received in
personal correspondence from prominent people, in the "Appreciations"
section of The Baha'i World.
I think that if you will read the excellent biography of Martha Root,
"Lioness at the Threshold," you will see that Martha enjoyed an
international reputation. She brought with her letters of
introduction from prominent people, so when she made new contacts with
eminent people, they had no illusions that their own letters would be
used in the same fashion. These were savvy people familiar with fame,
and Martha approached them with integrity. That's how she got those
letters.
Furthermore, Martha often gave as gifts to these prominent people,
copies of The Baha'i World. They would undoubtedly see the
"Appreciations" section, and if they had any doubts about the uses to
which their own praises of the Baha'i Faith would be put in future
volumes of that Yearbook, this would have removed them.
Finally, your broad brush assault on these statements in the
Appreciations section ignores the fact that many of them are not
contained in private correspondence, but in newspapers and journal
articles reprinted with permission.
GF writes:
>>Unless one sees the actual copy of the newspaper it is hard to
tell by what is written in the Baha'i World 1941...........GF >>
Fair's fair. I assume that you are prepared to abide by the same
standard of proof, and in support of the position you continue to
maintain, you will present "actual copies" of the statements of the
Queen's dear daughter.
HL
george.fleming2
Unless one has had the experience of having written material (or other art
related copyright material) used by the Baha'i Faith and other
organisations without first asking permission then it is hard sometimes for
some Baha'is to understand that the wonderful Baha'i Faith 5they belong to
does from time to time break certain codes of prodocol. For instance both
websites below used my artwork and articles written about me without my
permission. They just appeared without my knowledge, and I dare say the same
happened to many letters sent to Martha Root in a private capacity like
Queen Marie and other letters sent to newspapers to propagate the Bahai
Faith. Fot instance the UK NSA thinks because they published an article
about one of their Baha'is in one of their magazines they also have the
right to put it on the internet without that person's permission. I also
have had articles written about me in the Baha'i World 1994/95 without my
knowledge. Some Baha'is have a habit of adding Baha'i to everything. I have
been called many times a Baha'i artist because I included only one painting
(out of a series of 30 paintings) Thank God this time the author of the
article had more sense this time.
Here is a new website were that same (painting of the Baha'i faith) has been
used after I have left the faith. Notice the transposed scene of the three
Shi'ite Muslims sticking a pointed post through one of the letters of the
living's hearts. ( Thats what the did in those days when a senior Babiwho
was accused of apostacy) However symbolically the three Muslim murderers in
the painting (to quote Nima's last post about the hypocrite Baha'i of today)
are what fundamentalist Baha'is Walker, Maneck and Kohli have done to
George Fleming, and God knows how many other ex baha'is. They selfrigheously
symbolically nailed a post through their apostacy heritcal hearts.......GF
http://www.bahai.org.uk/uk_review/prev_iss/2/p4.htm
in article b6d66450.03012...@posting.google.com, Humble Learner
at humblel...@yahoo.com wrote on 29/1/03 4:07 am:
george.fleming2
> I think that if you will read the excellent biography of Martha Root,
> "Lioness at the Threshold," you will see that Martha enjoyed an
> international reputation.
Humble learner,
I never read Martha' Roots book, one of the first Baha'i books I bought when
I became a Baha'i 13 years ago, was a biography on George Townshend by David
Hofman. Now that I have resigned from the Baha'i faith I always wondered
why George Townsend still held his post as an anglian clergyman up until
1947 (six years after an Irish times article was written declaring his
belief as a baha'i before he resigned his post as a Christian clergyman.
Here's an historical snippet from a review by the Irish Times newspaper of
March 1, 1941 of George Townshend's book The Promise of All Ages. A NEW
RELIGION FROM THE EAST - An Irish Churchman on Bahais:
"The Christian is not asked to give up going to church or
reading the Scriptures, but he is asked to do these things in a sort of
symbolic manner. He no longer can hold the orthodox teaching
concerning the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Sacraments, or the Mystical
Body of Christ - but, if he makes the trifling sacrifice of these Christian
mysteries, he is welcome to go on praying in his old formulas,
and is as good a Bahaist as any Mohammedan in Turkey....
It seemed to me to be today this was very hypocritical and deceitful of the
Rev George Townshend to claim to be a Baha'i and at the same time live off
the good Christian parishioners and Church of Ireland who supplied him with
a parish home in Galway and a salary for another six years. As far
back as 1925 Shoghi Effendi stated all Baha'is who straddled
both religions had to make up their mind s which religion they
belonged to. Either one is a Baha'i or a Christian and it was
wrong to belong to both religions at the same time . Why was
George Townsend allowed to be different than other Baha'is?
While George Townsend claimed to be a Baha'i on the one hand
and held his post as a Christian clergyman on the other surely
readers would agree, he contradicted and refuted all these 6
basic christian Beliefs ..................GF
6 basics:
1. Full authority of the Bible - how we know about Jesus.
2. Deity of Christ/tri-unity (Trinity) of One God - who Jesus is.
3. Virgin incarnate conception - how God came to us.
4. Atonement of sin at the cross - how we go to God.
5. Bodily resurrection of Christ - future of mankind.
6. Second coming - future of Christ.
Paul Hammond
Why was
> George Townsend allowed to be different than other Baha'is?
> While George Townsend claimed to be a Baha'i on the one hand
> and held his post as a Christian clergyman on the other surely
> readers would agree, he contradicted and refuted all these 6
> basic christian Beliefs ..................GF
>
1) That is a question for the estate of George Townsend,
not for trb.
2) the Baha'i Faith does *not* contradict most of these
points:
> 6 basics:
>
> 1. Full authority of the Bible - how we know about Jesus.
>
The Baha'i Faith accepts the bible as an authoritative
source about Jesus - Baha'u'llah tones down the Muslim
teaching that the Bible has been altered.
> 2. Deity of Christ/tri-unity (Trinity) of One God - who Jesus is.
>
2) Jesus is as much God as Baha'u'llah is - that is, if one
were to say "Jesus is God" that would be the truth.
Thus, the deity of Christ is upheld.
> 3. Virgin incarnate conception - how God came to us.
>
3. I never read anywhere that Baha'is deny the virgin
birth - you're making this stuff up, aren't you?
> 4. Atonement of sin at the cross - how we go to God.
>
This one is actually true! The Baha'i Faith does not
believe in original sin, therefore the Christian
doctrine of "atonement" is irrelevant.
> 5. Bodily resurrection of Christ - future of mankind.
>
5. The Baha'is do *not* deny the bodily ressurection
of Christ - they just say it's not important to
believe it. Spritual ressurection is more important,
but if you want to believe in Christ's physical
ressurection too, there is nothing in the Baha'i
Writings to stop you.
> 6. Second coming - future of Christ.
6. Baha'u'llah *is* the second coming of Christ. How
is that denying this teaching?
You know what? 1 out of six is a very poor hit rate.
Paul
Susan Maneck
>> George Townsend allowed to be different than other Baha'is?
>> While George Townsend claimed to be a Baha'i on the one hand
>> and held his post as a Christian clergyman
George,
If you read George Townsend's biography you will see that while he was still a
clergyman he was not formally enrolled in the Faith. Furthermore it was not
unusual at the time for Baha'is to have dual identities. This practice stopped
after the landmark court decision in Egypt stated that the Baha'i Faith was a
separate religion from Islam. This legalized the performance of our marriages,
etc. At that point Shoghi Effendi thought it timely to ask Baha'is to withdraw
from all other religious organizations. He wired George Townsend to resign and
he did so immediately.
george.fleming2
sma...@aol.com wrote on 31/1/03 12:44 am:
>> Why was
>>> George Townsend allowed to be different than other Baha'is?
>>> While George Townsend claimed to be a Baha'i on the one hand
>>> and held his post as a Christian clergyman
>
> George,
>
> If you read George Townsend's biography you will see that while he was still
> a
> clergyman he was not formally enrolled in the Faith. Furthermore it was not
> unusual at the time for Baha'is to have dual identities. This practice stopped
> after the landmark court decision in Egypt stated that the Baha'i Faith was a
> separate religion from Islam. This legalized the performance of our marriages,
> etc. At that point Shoghi Effendi thought it timely to ask Baha'is to
> withdraw from all other religious organizations. He wired George Townsend to
> resign and he did so immediately.
Susan you would make an exellent storytellor, show me the proof Shoghi
Effendi sent him a telegram in 1947 (the year he resigned).
How come the law your talking about changed in 1925, and it took Shoghi
Effendi 22 years before he decided to wire George Townsend.
Susan you had better think of another story, that one does not work. If you
read George Townshend book properly what kept him back from leaving his
station as a Clergyman in the Church of Ireland was his wife.
However it was deceitful and totally untruthful of him to live of the
Church and con his parishioners by giving a sermon on Christianity where it
is a well known fact the trinitarian creeds are recited every sunday for
another six years after he had made a public statement in the irish Times
six years earlier about his belief in Baha'u'llah as the Return of Christ.
GF
Lux
Queen Maria of Romania has never become a Bahai. Had she become one,
it would have been public knowledge in Romania. She had affairs and
all of them were public knowledge in Romania. Romanians knew a lot
what Queen Maria was upt to. She was their Queen after all.
I am Romanian, born and educated in Romania yet nobody, I stress
NOBODY, has ever heard of Queen Maria being a Bahai (or other
non-Christian faith). She might have read some writings, shown some
interest but that doesn't made her a Bahai convert. I read quite a lot
of Buddhism in my youth but that doesn't make a Buddhist convert
either.
My message is: nobody in Romania has ever heard of Queen Maria of
Romania being a Bahai convert. Why? Because she never became a Bahai,
as simple as that.
george.fleming2
st_l...@bigfoot.com wrote on 31/1/03 3:09 pm:
> Queen Maria of Romania has never become a Bahai. Had she become one,
> it would have been public knowledge in Romania. She had affairs and
> all of them were public knowledge in Romania. Romanians knew a lot
> what Queen Maria was upt to. She was their Queen after all.
> I am Romanian, born and educated in Romania yet nobody, I stress
> NOBODY, has ever heard of Queen Maria being a Bahai (or other
> non-Christian faith). She might have read some writings, shown some
> interest but that doesn't made her a Bahai convert. I read quite a lot
> of Buddhism in my youth but that doesn't make a Buddhist convert
> either. My message is: nobody in Romania has ever heard of Queen Maria of
> Romania being a Bahai convert. Why? Because she never became a Bahai,
> as simple as that.
Thank you Lux for your sincere post. This goes to prove my point all these
Baha'is who tell all these untruths about Queen Marie being a Baha'i are
just a binch of Porkey Pie sellers.....................GF
Susan Maneck
>it would have been public knowledge in Romania. She had affairs and
>all of them were public knowledge in Romania.
Dear Lux,
It is quite clear from Queen Marie's correspondence that her ministers took
deliberate steps to prevent this from becoming common knowledge against her
wishes, even to the extent of blocking her from going on pilgrimage when she
had made it as far as Egypt.
As for her affairs, I know nothing about those. But apparently no minister of
state stood in her way there.
warmest,
Lux
Dear Susan
So you have never heard of Queen Maria's affairs which were public
knowledge in Romania and favourite subject to satirists in the
Romanian newspapers, while you without any doubt that she was a Bahai.
You also claim that ministers of state have prevented her involvement
with Bahai becoming public knowledge. Would you be so kind and let me
know the name of these ministers of state, please? As as historian you
must know these names.
Susan Maneck
>knowledge in Romania and favourite subject to satirists in the
>Romanian newspapers, while you without any doubt that she was a Bahai.
Dear Lux,
That's correct as I have only seen her correspondence on that subject.
>You also claim that ministers of state have prevented her involvement
>with Bahai becoming public knowledge. Would you be so kind and let me
>know the name of these ministers of state, please? As as historian you
>must know these names.
Queen Marie did not name them to my knowledge, but she wrote the following:
""Both Ileana and I were cruelly disappointed at having been prevented
going to the holy shrines and of meeting Shoghi Effendi, but at that time were
going through a cruel crisis and every movement I made was being turned against
me and being politically exploited in an unkind way. It caused me a good deal
of suffering and curtailed my liberty most unkindly. There are periods however
when
one must submit to persecution, nevertheless, however high-hearted
one may be, it ever again fills one with pained astonishment when
people are mean and spiteful . I had my child to defend at that
time; she was going through a bitter experience and so I could not
stand up and defy the world. But the beauty of truth remains and
I cling to it through all the vicissitudes of a life become rather
sad . . . "
Princes Ilena (later the Arch-Duchess Anton) translated one of the first Baha'i
pamphlets into Romanian.
Lux
Ha, ha, ha. Princess Ileana the great Bahai!!!!! We talk about
princess Ileana who later became a Christian Orthodox nun and founded
a Orthodox convent in the USA, don't we? That proves without doubt my
point that neither Queen Maria, nore Princess Ileana were Bahai
converts. They might had a passing interest in Bahai but that did not
made them converts. The fact that Princess Ileana died as an Christan
Orthodox nun is ample proof of that.
I repeat a couple of facts:
1. Nobody in Romania has ever heard of Queen Maria becoming a Bahai
convert although her life in Romania is well known by Romanian and
foreign historians. Her marriage with King Ferdinand, her strained
relationship with the Romanian Royal family and her affairs were
public knowledge and supported by documents. How then nothing is known
about her conversion to Bahai faith? And who are the ones who stopped
her short to become a Bahai? How authentic are the letters allegedly
showing her support to Bahai and published in 1941, when she was dead
and she couldn't rebuke them? You are unable to give me any single
name or fact that can be checked.
2. Princess Ileana, allegedly Bahai convert and translator of Bahai
literature, has died as an Christian Orthodox nun and founder of a
Christan Orhtodox convent. That really says it all. I stop here, I
have nothing to add.
Susan Maneck
>The fact that Princess Ileana died as an Christan
>Orthodox nun is ample proof of that.
>I repeat a couple of facts:
I don't know what Princess Ileana's official status in relationship with the
Faith was, I just know she translated that passage and Martha Root always spoke
of the two together. But the fact she died a nun only proves she did not
remain a Baha'i.
george.fleming2
st_l...@bigfoot.com wrote on 2/2/03 12:39 pm:
Lux I posted this info in an earlier post. You may have missed it...GF
Another lie told by Bahai's that Queen Marie became a Baha'i. This is
strongly refuted in William Millar's book The Baha'i Faith: Its History and
Teachings.................GF
Chapter 13
41. The conversion of Queen Marie to the Baha’i Faith was widely and
joyfully acclaimed by Baha’is as the fulfilment of Baha’u’llah’s prophecy in
the Aqdas (pp. 46-47) that kings would support his Cause (Baha’i World, vol.
II, pp. 173-176, God Passes By, pp. 387-395). However, regarding this
alleged conversion Mother Alexandra, now Mother Superior of the Orthodox
Monastery of the Transfiguration, wrote to Mr. J. Anthony Sistrom on August
7, 1970 as follows: "It is perfectly true that my mother, Queen Marie, did
receive Miss Martha Root several times.....She came at the moment when we
were undergoing very great family and national stress. At such a moment it
was natural that we were receptive to any kind of spiritual message, but it
is quite incorrect to say that my mother or any of us at any time
contemplated becoming a member of the Baha’i faith.
Lux
> joyfully acclaimed by Baha’is as the fulfilment of Baha’u’llah’s prophecy in
> the Aqdas (pp. 46-47) that kings would support his Cause (Baha’i World, vol.
> II, pp. 173-176, God Passes By, pp. 387-395). However, regarding this
> alleged conversion Mother Alexandra, now Mother Superior of the Orthodox
> Monastery of the Transfiguration, wrote to Mr. J. Anthony Sistrom on August
> 7, 1970 as follows: "It is perfectly true that my mother, Queen Marie, did
> receive Miss Martha Root several times.....She came at the moment when we
> were undergoing very great family and national stress. At such a moment it
> was natural that we were receptive to any kind of spiritual message, but it
> is quite incorrect to say that my mother or any of us at any time
Thank you George. The topic is now closed.
Susan Maneck
>Thank you George. The topic is now closed.
>
>
All that proves is that we have one daughter's word against Queen Marie's own
statements.
george.fleming2
sma...@aol.com wrote on 2/2/03 11:02 pm:
>> Thank you George. The topic is now closed.
>
> All that proves is that we have one daughter's word against Queen Marie's own
> statements.
Queen Marie definitely did not become a member of the BF and it is obvious
SE, and Martha Root, wanted to use her royal status to enhance the prestige
of the BF. She had a Christian funeral and is buried at the Royal chapel in
"Curtea de Arges" While alive she was also interested in Frank Buchman,
founder of the Oxford Group movement. I don't know if the Buchmanites make
as much of her interest as the BF does. An important point to make is that
unlike Shoghi Effendi she actually met Buchman in person.
Funny, but in a biography of 510 pages there is only 1 small paragraph about
the BF. The immediate background is the abdication of her son Carol in 1926
and the subsequent dynastic crisis the country was plunged into. Here is the
paragraph in full:
"Nevertheless, Carol's abdication was a windfall for the enemies of the
dynasty. They seized on his desertion to cut down his mother and succeeded
in planting serious doubts about her in the minds of her people. In the
desperation and near loss of faith that followed, Queen Marie turned to the
teachings of the Baha'i religion, which she discovered a month or so after
Carol's flight. The Baha'i call for the unification of humanity under one
faith was vastly appealing to the Queen, who had always rebellled against
the rigid distinctions separating her immediate family into three religions,
and the Baha'i goal of universal peace and its warnings of social upheaval
seemed prophetic to the distraught woman. Although she continued to attend
the Protestant Church, she said that she prayed "better at home with my
Baha-u-llah books and teachings... For the first time I have felt religion"
said the woman who had tried and failed throughout her life to find the
unquestioning belief she throught she ought to have and now needed for
support".
This paragraph is immediately followed by one relating to Buchman:
"Another influence during that unhappy winter was Frank Buchman, an American
evangelist and self-styled "soul surgeon", founder of the Oxford Group
movement and his own religion, A First Century Christian Fellowship. Sent to
Marie by American friends living in Turkey, Buchman spent some weeks at
Cotroceni Palace, reading from the Bible with the Queen and her children and
"spreading his kind, uniting atmosphere over us all"
Source , Hannah Pakula, The Last Romantic - A Biogrpahy of Queen Marie of
Roumania, Weidenfeld and Nicholson, 1985, p. 337
*********************************************************************
MORE MEETINGS WITH BUCHMAN:
Queen M made a voyage on board the SS Leviathan to the USA in 1926 and
Buchman was also on board. The book says that she "engaged in soul-searching
discussions with her old mentor, Frank Buchman, also on the Leviathan" page
344.
While she was in the US, she was under pressure not to see Buchman
"Another source of strife was Frank Buchman. Pressed by their official hosts
to push Buchman aside, Marie and her children balked. Public repudiation of
an old friend, the Queen said, was against their royal "creed".
page 350.
Sounds to me like she was as interested in Buchman as Baha'i!
GF
george.fleming2
From: george.fleming2 <george....@ntlworld.com>
To: <deve...@jsums.edu>, <vre...@jsums.edu>, <rric...@jsums.edu>,
<ctr...@ccaix.jsums.edu>, <ctr...@ccaix.jsums.edu>, <vfo...@jsums.edu>,
<james.m...@jsums.edu>, <usns...@usbnc.org>
Date: MondayFebruary 631020032002 2:42 am
Subject: Dr Susan Maneck The Baha'i Jackson State University Snitcher
http://ccaix.jsums.edu/~jsuoaa/oaa_staff_admin.html
http://ccaix.jsums.edu/~jsuoaa/oaa_officials.html
http://ccaix.jsums.edu/%7Ejsuoaa/index.html
Susan Maneck still advertises her educational position when she posts to
Baha'i newsgroups and then she wonders why Baha'is and ex-baha'is find out
her university e/mail address. How this woman holds down a serious job and
is never off the internet Baha' is a wonder does she do a job at all at
Jackson State University because she is never off the internet.
Susan Maneck
Associate Professor of History
Jackson State University
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Subject: Dr Susan Maneck The Baha'i Jackson State University Snitcher
To the Universal House and US N S A members of the Baha'i faith and Office
of the University of provost Jackson State University.
My name is George Fleming and I resigned my membership 18/10/02 having been
a Baha'i for 13 years because American Bahai's Pat Kohli (from Maryland) and
Dr Susan Maneck from (Jackon State University) reported (snitched ) me
having a flame war with two ex Baha'is on talk.religion.bahai's. The UK NSA
accepted their report and sent me this letter ordering me off the internet,
or else they would take further action. (NSA Letter is inclosed for perusal)
I am now requesting the respective NSA's to instruct Pat Kohli
<ko...@ameritel.net> and Dr Susan Maneck <sma...@aol.com> and Dr Brian
Walker <bfwa...@net-yan.com> (from Hong Kong) to refrain from posting to
talk religion bahai or else I will continue sending my complaints to all the
NSA's of the world whose e/mails I can find. I will also send copies to
universities and religious organisations and any other organisations I see
fit starting with Jackson State University and ABILENE CHRISTIAN UNIVERSITY
then others:
http://isl-garnet.uah.edu/Universities/ms.html
http://isl-garnet.uah.edu/Universities/universitiestx.html
http://www.universities.com/Search/ProgramsOfStudy/Theological_Studies_Relig
ious_Vocations.asp I will then work onto European universities when
finished with the US ones, until Dr Susan Maneck, Pat Kohli and Dr Brian
Walker have been instructed to leave talk.religion.bahai' by their
respective NSA's, like I was instructed off by the UK NSA.
You must agree the Baha'i faith threatened me with further action had I not
obeyed their command. I resigned my membership instead.
My further action will be a continous flow of e/mail complaints (inclosing
the two letters ) to all the world NSA's, world universitiy campuses and
other world religious universities and organisations. Each post I will add
another NSA e/mail address and another university to my complaints list.
Finally I have inclosed a post from Dr Brian Walker ( A Baha'i doctor based
in Hong Kong) He stated: "Neither Pat nor I respond well to bullies. They
are generally weak-minded, ill-controlled shites, who deserve a good
kicking, and you will get more than a good kicking if I see you" . After I
threatened to report them to their respective NSA's as Pat Kohli had done
to me. Dr Walker's post is included for perusal.
George Fleming
---------------------------
Letter from NSA of the Baha'is of the United Kingdom'
27 Rutland gate, London SW7 1PD
October 18,2002
Mr George Fleming
Dear Baha'i friend,
The national Spirtual assembly appreciates your desire to
defend the good name of our beloved Faith and the sincerity with
which you seek to do so. However, uour recent imvolvement in
certain email discussion groups may have inadvertently helped
the cause of those very individuals from whom you are seeking
to protect the Faith, and this has become a source of some
concern to the National Assembly.
The national Spiritual Assembly therefore instructs you, with
immediate effect, to cease and disist from participating in the
SCI, TRB and ARB e-discussion lists and in any other
unmoderated discussions conducted over email. Further, you
are requested to cease direct communication with Pat Kohli and
Susan Maneck and the national Spirtual Assembbly of the United
States. However should you have a grievance which you would
like to bring to the attention of the latter body you are kindly asked
to refer such a matter to the attention of the National Assembly of
the United Kingdom.
The national Assembly further asks you to refrain from
discussing any of the issues raised in this letter with anyone
other than Councellor Shahriavi, the national Spirtual Assembly
of the United Kingdom, or Auxiliary Board members Denis Coyle
and Ann O'Sullivan.
The National Spirtual Assembly trusts that you will abide by what
is now being asked of you. Should you fail to do so, the national
Assembly will have no choice but to take further action.
With loving Baha'i greetings.
National Spirtual Assembly
Kishan Manocha, Assistant Secretary.
George Fleming
Belfast N Ireland
Dear National Spirtual Assembly members
After reading your letter 18/10/02 were you stated:
"The NSA therefore instructs you, with immediate effect, to cease
and desist from particpating in SCI, TRB, and ARB e-discussion
lists and in any other unmoderated discussions conducted over
e/mail"
Along with SCI there are some 42,760 more unmoderated
groups on the internet which are not Baha'i related unmoderated
newsgroups.
I therefore believe this instruction is totally against me my human
and freedom of rights, and therefore have been left with no
alternattive other than to resign from the Baha'i Faith.
I herby declare that on 21/10/02 George Fleming Belfast N
Ireland has resigned his membership from the Baha'i Faith.
Membership Number ******
Signed George Fleming Bahai Faith membership card
enclosed.
From: Brian Walker <bfwa...@net-yan.com>
Newsgroups: <talk.religion.bahai>
Date: MondayDecember 6301020022002 6:17 am
Subject: Re: Letters of Negation
george.fleming2 wrote:
> Kohli you listen and listen good if you dont stop all this shitstirring and
> bringing all this anti-Catholic retoric up again and again I sware by
> Almighty God I will report you and your two sleaseball Administrative Order
> friends Walker and Maneck to your NSA and the UHJ 10000 times if I have to.
> It is no skin of my nose I am not a Baha'i anymore.
>
> Remember what you and Walker primed Dermod Ryder to do to my local
> Administrative Order here in Ireland I will do exactly the same 1000 fold in
> your neck of the woods......................GF
Neither Pat nor I respond well to bullies. They are generally
weak-minded, ill-controlled shites, who deserve a good kicking, and you
will get more than a good kicking if I see you. Take your bully-boy
aggression and stuff it up your more-than-generous arse, whence you
derive your biscuits - or stand up like a man, admit your lies and
bluster, and live like a man among humans, not the wee rat you are
currently impersonating.
Brian
Pat Kohli
Lux wrote:
I believe that was how George opened the topic.
You've come in and announced that the Queen must not have been a Baha'i, or you would have known it. You remain
convinced, despite the letters to Martha Root.
Is there anything which might have swayed you?
"Almost no aspect of Baha'i history escapes this treatment. A well-
to-dophilanthropist like Mrs. W. Sutherland Maxwell of Montreal,
and professional people such as Keith Ransom-Kehler and Dr. Susan
Moody, whose dedication of their funds and skills to the work of
the Baha'i Faith was an inspiration to their coreligionists all over the
world, are described as "paid pioneers."(45) The open and emphatic
declaration of her faith as a Baha'i by Queen Marie of Rumania, in
letters to newspapers and to the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith (some
of which were published with her consent in photostat form in Volumes
VI and VIII of _The Baha'i World_)(46) is passed over in silence, and
a letter from the Queen's daughter, a member of a Christian religious
order, is used to raise doubt about the "alleged" conversion of the
Queen.(47) Countless other examples could be cited."
http://www.bcca.org/bahaivision/docs/miller.html
Bye bye!
- Pat
kohli at ameritel.net
Brid
> Queen Maria of Romania has never become a Bahai. Had she become one,
> it would have been public knowledge in Romania. She had affairs and
> all of them were public knowledge in Romania. Romanians knew a lot
> what Queen Maria was upt to. She was their Queen after all.
> I am Romanian, born and educated in Romania yet nobody, I stress
> NOBODY, has ever heard of Queen Maria being a Bahai (or other
> non-Christian faith). She might have read some writings, shown some
> interest but that doesn't made her a Bahai convert. I read quite a lot
> of Buddhism in my youth but that doesn't make a Buddhist convert
> either.
> My message is: nobody in Romania has ever heard of Queen Maria of
> Romania being a Bahai convert. Why? Because she never became a Bahai,
> as simple as that.
Yes Lux. But the problem is that Baha'is will know better than you and
better than the people of Romania about this just as they know more
about Christianity than Christians, more about Islam than Muslims and
so it goes on. It seems clear to me that Queen Marie was interested in
the principles of the BF and did express her appreciation of them. But
then it's hard to be against equality, peace and justice for all.
Presumably she didn't read the code of personal morality expected in
the Aqdas, didn't know about the glass ceiling for women, the black
slaves and all the rest of it. She would have been offered the
teachings of Baha'u'llah in a simplistic, well-meaning, platitudinous
way. Queen Marie was dead long before the BF hardened into the
fundamentalist cult-like organization you see here today.
Furthermore the passages from the Pakula biography that George quoted
make it clear that she was interested in the message of Buchman's
Oxford group too. Religious tolerance for a woman from an Anglican
background, married to a devout RC and raising her children in
Orthodoxy would obviously be an attractive proposition. She came into
contact with the BF at a vulnerable time in her turbulent life and the
BF was only too willing to exploit her royal status to the full. If
she had been a Romanian peasant we would never have heard about her
supposed conversion. The talking up of the interest of the rich and
famous in the BF is a long-established phenomenon (still with us today
- just look at Cher) and IMHO one of its least-attractive features.
Good luck to you
Brid
Cal E. Rollins
Convention or in Haifa? Dizzy Gillespie gave Israel a good show and was
always wearing his Baha'i ring on tv. I saw it once on his pinkie and
wish I had known in advance I'd have taped it to show to all my
unbelieving friends. I used to hear that Joanne Woodard was a Baha'i;
that's why I figured Gore Vidal was so nasty to us in his work. How
about Paul Newman? Whatever happened to Seals and Croft? My biggest
celebrity thrill was seeing the actress in that horror flic where she
was drinking a martini and blood dripped from the ceiling onto her
Baha'i ring. Quite exciting and scandalous, too. Robert Mitchum's
sister. Very Hollywood. Also Vic Damone allegedly being
administratively relieved of his card for something or ruther was a
surprise, because it used to be that prominent Baha'i people seemed to
get away with just about anything. I also used to hear that Dr. Martin
Luther King, Jr. was a Baha'i. And President Bush because of his New
World Order idea that he got from Baha'u'llah. That did get the kabosh,
however.
Nima, didn't you say somewhere that the Shah of Iran and the Crown
Prince were Baha'is? Lots of luck. --Cal
NEMO418
> Nima, didn't you say somewhere that the Shah of Iran and the Crown
> Prince were Baha'is?
No and never did I ever say such a thing.
Paul Hammond
> in article 20030202180248...@mb-mq.aol.com, Susan Maneck at
> sma...@aol.com wrote on 2/2/03 11:02 pm:
>
> >> Thank you George. The topic is now closed.
> >
> > All that proves is that we have one daughter's word against Queen Marie's own
> > statements.
>
> Queen Marie definitely did not become a member of the BF and it is obvious
> SE, and Martha Root, wanted to use her royal status to enhance the prestige
> of the BF.
Except for the fact that you are overlooking a letter, that
has been quoted here, in which she does indeed refer to
herself as a Baha'i.
We may not know how long her membership lasted. It may
not have been as long as 13 years.
But we do know that she thought of herself as a Baha'i,
at least on the day she wrote that letter.
Solid evidence against your case is so inconvenient,
isn't it?
Paul
>
> Sounds to me like she was as interested in Buchman as Baha'i!
>
Yeah, we've heard this one already, change the record!
You can't just repeat yourself, ignore the evidence
for the defense, and expect the rest of us to pretend to
ignore it too!
> GF
Pat Kohli
Brid wrote:
Wecome to usenet, Brid. I think it is great to see so much interest in
Queen Marie, from Belfast.
Yes. Let's compare quotes. On the one hand, there is the Pakula quotes,
probably unbiased. Then there is the Miller quote, likely biased, and the
Root/Toronto Star quotes, also likely biased. Which biased quotes, the
Miller one, or the Root one, are closer to Pakula?
"Nevertheless, Carol's abdication was a windfall for the enemies of the
dynasty. They seized on his desertion to cut down his mother and succeeded
in planting serious doubts about her in the minds of her people. In the
desperation and near loss of faith that followed, Queen Marie turned to the
teachings of the Baha'i religion, which she discovered a month or so after
Carol's flight. The Baha'i call for the unification of humanity under one
faith was vastly appealing to the Queen, who had always rebellled against
the rigid distinctions separating her immediate family into three religions,
and the Baha'i goal of universal peace and its warnings of social upheaval
seemed prophetic to the distraught woman. Although she continued to attend
the Protestant Church, she said that she prayed "better at home with my
Baha-u-llah books and teachings... For the first time I have felt religion"
said the woman who had tried and failed throughout her life to find the
unquestioning belief she throught she ought to have and now needed for
support".
Pakula
"41. The conversion of Queen Marie to the Baha?i Faith was widely and
joyfully acclaimed by Baha?is as the fulfilment of Baha?u?llah?s prophecy in
the Aqdas (pp. 46-47) that kings would support his Cause (Baha?i World, vol.
II, pp. 173-176, God Passes By, pp. 387-395). However, regarding this
alleged conversion Mother Alexandra, now Mother Superior of the Orthodox
Monastery of the Transfiguration, wrote to Mr. J. Anthony Sistrom on August
7, 1970 as follows: "It is perfectly true that my mother, Queen Marie, did
receive Miss Martha Root several times.....She came at the moment when we
were undergoing very great family and national stress. At such a moment it
was natural that we were receptive to any kind of spiritual message, but it
is quite incorrect to say that my mother or any of us at any time
contemplated becoming a member of the Baha?i faith."
Miller
"But mostly we ignore or misunderstand this voice. Therefore did He choose
his Elect to come down amongst us upon earth to make clear His word, His
real meaning. Therefore the Prophets; therefore Christ, Muhammad,
Bahá'u'lláh, for man needs from time to time a voice upon earth to bring God
to him, to sharpen the realization of the existence of the true God. Those
voices sent to us had to become flesh, so that with our earthly ears we
should be able to hear
and understand."
...
"Lately a great hope has come to me from one, 'Abdu'l-Bahá. I have found in
His and His Father, Bahá'u'lláh's Message of Faith all my yearning for real
religion satisfied. If you ever hear of Baha'is or of the Bahá'í Movement
which is known in America, you will know what that is. What I mean: these
Books have strengthened me beyond belief and I am now ready to die any day
full of hope. But I pray God not to take me away yet for I still have a lot
of work to do."
Root
http://bahai-library.org/books/appreciations.html
So, does the statement, she prayed "better at home with my Baha-u-llah books
and teachings... For the first time I have felt religion" fit more closely
with A) it is "quite incorrect to say that my mother or any of us at any
time contemplated becoming a member of the Baha?i faith" OR B) "these Books
have strengthened me beyond belief and I am now ready to die any day full of
hope"?
> Religious tolerance for a woman from an Anglican
> background, married to a devout RC and raising her children in
> Orthodoxy would obviously be an attractive proposition. She came into
> contact with the BF at a vulnerable time in her turbulent life and the
She herself acknowledged that in her letter to the Toronto Star.
>
> BF was only too willing to exploit her royal status to the full.
It was an open letter.
> If
> she had been a Romanian peasant we would never have heard about her
> supposed conversion.
I agree; it is most doubtful the Toronto Star would publish it. Do you
suppose they would publish Goerge's letters?
> The talking up of the interest of the rich and
> famous in the BF is a long-established phenomenon (still with us today
> - just look at Cher) and IMHO one of its least-attractive features.
Yes, please show me a Cher connection. Are you referring to Cher
Holt-Fortin, or Cher Gupta- Fletcher of Lisle, or, perhaps an entirely
different Cher?
Slan,
Dermod Ryder
"Brid" <bridci...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d5a5c190.03020...@posting.google.com...
Hi Brid,
Welcome to TRB - would that be a whiff of fresh air from The Curragh
that you'd be bringing with you? Pat seems to think you hail from
northern parts but I wouldn't be so sure of that.
BTW - what is that that whole Cher thing you referred to? Don't tell
me she has become a BIGS!
As for Queen Marie - if they can't produce a signed Declaration Card,
I would have my doubts about her "membership".
Dermod.
Paul Hammond
> "Brid" <bridci...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:d5a5c190.03020...@posting.google.com...
>
> Hi Brid,
>
> Welcome to TRB - would that be a whiff of fresh air from The Curragh
> that you'd be bringing with you? Pat seems to think you hail from
> northern parts but I wouldn't be so sure of that.
>
> BTW - what is that that whole Cher thing you referred to? Don't tell
> me she has become a BIGS!
>
> As for Queen Marie - if they can't produce a signed Declaration Card,
> I would have my doubts about her "membership".
>
> Dermod.
>
She's certainly a breath of fresh air, I met her over
on Beliefnet, and I hope she sticks around here.
We could do with a few more intelligent and
interesting posters around here.
Paul
Brid
> news:d5a5c190.03020...@posting.google.com...
>
> Hi Brid,
>
> Welcome to TRB - would that be a whiff of fresh air from The Curragh
> that you'd be bringing with you? Pat seems to think you hail from
> northern parts but I wouldn't be so sure of that.
Well goodness gracious me - you can smell the sweet odour of the curry
of Kildare between the black north and chicken Maryland?
>
> BTW - what is that that whole Cher thing you referred to? Don't tell
> me she has become a BIGS!
I saw somewhere recently a report about Cher being on the verge of
entering the BF. Apparently she thought better of it when she learnt
she would have to give up sex, drugs and rock n'roll. At least they
told her in advance. If I can turn the link up again I'll post it.
>
> As for Queen Marie - if they can't produce a signed Declaration Card,
> I would have my doubts about her "membership".
>
You'll get no argument from me (on this at least).
> Dermod.
Dodging the scythe (and hopefully the curse) of the Grim Reaper,
Brid
Seegar
>"Dermod Ryder" <Grim_Re...@btinternet.com> wrote in message news:<b1nir6$13ccra$1...@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de>...
>> "Brid" <bridci...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:d5a5c190.03020...@posting.google.com...
>
>
>I saw somewhere recently a report about Cher being on the verge of
>entering the BF. Apparently she thought better of it when she learnt
>she would have to give up sex, drugs and rock n'roll. At least they
>told her in advance. If I can turn the link up again I'll post it.
>Brid
Cher was brought out on the stage and introduced as a new Baha'i by
Seals and Crofts at the 1973 Oklahoma City Baha'i Youth Conference.
What happened after that I don't know as I didn't follow the story and
someone else will have to fill in the details.
Peace,
Chris
george.fleming2
Nice to here a voice from down Kildare way on TRB. We have shared on another
list, and you remember there was a BIGS plant there. Well watch out here as
there are at least three BIGS working for the Administrative Order on TRB.
GF
in article d5a5c190.03020...@posting.google.com, Brid at
bridci...@yahoo.com wrote on 4/2/03 12:01 pm:
Susan Maneck
>> I would have my doubts about her "membership".
>>
Since we didn't have declaration cards back then I would be very suspicious if
we produced one.
Susan Maneck
>Seals and Crofts at the 1973 Oklahoma City Baha'i Youth Conference.
>What happened after that I don't know as I didn't follow the story and
>someone else will have to fill in the details.
>
Dear Chris,
Your recollection is correct. But my understanding is that she changed her mind
when she found out about all the laws.
warmest, Susan
Cal E. Rollins
recall, lots of people said they were Baha'is, because that's all one
had to do: say you were. So, in reality, there was no such thing as
formal membership at the time, was there? Was August Forel a formal
member of the Baha'i Faith, for example? Or Alexander Graham Bell? Did
Carole Lombard sign a Baha'i card and get a book signed by her LSA in
Hollywood, I wonder? My uncle back in the early 50s used to tell folk
he was a Baha'i but he never signed any card. My grandmother said he
was when he died, because she taught him what she knew of the Faith.
But she wasn't a Baha'i either. --Cal
Brid
> Brid wrote:
>
> Wecome to usenet, Brid. I think it is great to see so much interest in
> Queen Marie, from Belfast.
>
Kabul and the Kalahari there is great interest in Queen Marie. And why
not? A remarkable woman doomed to live, as the Chinese say, in
"interesting times". I recommend Hannah Pakula's biography to you as a
cracking good read, even if she reckons the Queen's interest in the BF
merits one small paragraph.
> Yes. Let's compare quotes.
No, let's not waste time. I'm not disputing her genuine interest in
the BF as my post to Lux made clear, just the OTT royal toadying the
Baha'is do about it.
>
> > The talking up of the interest of the rich and
> > famous in the BF is a long-established phenomenon (still with us today
> > - just look at Cher) and IMHO one of its least-attractive features.
>
> Yes, please show me a Cher connection. Are you referring to Cher
> Holt-Fortin, or Cher Gupta- Fletcher of Lisle, or, perhaps an entirely
> different Cher?
>
No I mean the former Mrs Sonny Bono Cher. Others have kindly provided
the information for me. I will enclose a review of the uncritical
Baha'i work on Queen M for your delectation instead:
Della Marcus in Her Eternal Crown, Queen Marie of Romania and the
Bahá'í Faith explores how the religion first came to attention in the
royal palaces of the Balkans. I must confess that prior to reading
this book I was woefully ignorant of the story of Queen Marie. I had
encountered the denial of her involvement in the Bahá'í Faith by her
daughter, Princess Ileana, in William Miller's book The Bahá'í Faith:
its history and teachings. This caused me to peruse the index of a
couple of biographies of the queen and finding no mention of the
Bahá'í Faith therein, conclude that the queen had probably made a few
polite remarks in response to overtures from Bahá'ís. Consequently, I
relegated Queen Marie, along with Cher and Mr Spock, to the
netherworld of Bahá'ís whose credentials are entirely composed of the
wishful thinking of Bahá'ís. However, Della Marcus' book totally
refutes any denial of Queen Marie's involvement with Bahá'ís. It is
somewhat odd then that it does not mention the fact that these denials
exist. This gives the book a rather unbalanced stance and does not
allow the author to develop the thesis. Had Marcus started by pointing
out that critics of the Faith had dismissed Queen Marie's involvement
and that most biographers had ignored it, it would have given her the
opportunity to discuss some very interesting questions. Questions such
as: why should Princess Ileana, herself once very interested in the
Bahá'í cause, make such a denial, or if Queen Marie totally accepted
the Bahá'í teachings (insofar as she understood them), did she ever
reject Christianity of the authority of the Church? The answers to
these unspoken questions are curiously to be found in the introduction
where the "evolutionary" process of the development of the modern
Bahá'í Faith is explained but not related to the subject matter of the
text. It is pointed out that the prior to the 1940's when
incompatibility of membership of the Bahá'í Faith with other religious
bodies was made clear many Bahá'ís had "dual memberships," but how
that affected Queen Marie and Princess Ileana is not discussed. In my
opinion the queen and her daughter totally accepted the Bahá'í
movement, which was a supplementary religious movement requiring no
conversion experience, but did not embrace the Bahá'í Faith as an
independent religion.
Marcus, however, does not set out to provide analysis, but rather to
reproduce the correspondence and diary entries concerning the queen's
involvement with the Bahá'í teachings and with Martha Root. This she
does admirably, although the text is sometimes repetitive when, for
example, the same incident is described in a diary entry, a letter,
and an article in Star of the West. The problem with this approach is
that the reader is not given any kind of context or comparison, so
whilst Queen Marie's acceptance of Bahá'í Faith, her relationship with
Martha Root, and her desire to visit Shoghi Effendi are proved beyond
doubt, there is no information about other interests she might have
had—did she, for example, also correspond with Theosophists or
Christian Scientists?
The importance of this book is that no future biographer will be able
to ignore the importance of the Bahá'í message in Queen Marie's life.
Some interesting light is shed on the domestic life of European
royalty in the first half of the last century. It does not seem to
have been a pleasant existence, and Marie was subjected to
restrictions, financial constraints and family dysfunction.
Superficially the queen's friendship with Martha Root seems
surprising, but Root must have been a wonderful antidote to the
intrigues of the court. Root's "handling" of the queen is also
interesting—she reports directly to Shoghi Effendi and he intervenes
directly only when required. His correspondence with Root indicates
his trust in her abilities and the care with which they planned their
relationship with the queen. It is no doubt significant that other
Bahá'ís did not approach Queen Marie and that, on her tour of North
America, the American Bahá'í community communicated with her only by
sending flowers. Clearly the Queen's relationship with the Bahá'í
Faith had to be carefully managed.
The role of kingship and Bahá'u'lláh's writings to kings and rulers
are explained in the introduction, as well as the importance of
monarchical acceptance of the Bahá'í Faith. This book will be useful
in re-examining this aspect of the writings particularly in England
where the House of Windsor has begun to look rather unsteady. Whilst
the conversion of Saxon warlords might have worked for the Christian
missionary saints, how useful would a strategy of canvassing royalty
or the aristocracy be in a more egalitarian society? Overall this book
makes a useful contribution to the literature on the history of the
Bahá'í Faith. It allows its subjects to speak for themselves and,
whilst it is short on analysis, it raises a number of interesting
points that can be pursued in further work.
http://bahai-library.org/bsr/bsr10/10G_reviews2.htm#t5
Slan,
> - Pat
> kohli at ameritel.net
Slán leat,
Brid
Dermod Ryder
curry
> of Kildare between the black north and chicken Maryland?
I can indeed - all that fine horseflesh! And if this be a nom de
plume it is one apparently chosen with particular care as the close
association between Naomh Brid and Cilldara is one not generally known
to aliens. It's a shame you cannot get the fada in.
> > BTW - what is that that whole Cher thing you referred to? Don't
tell
> > me she has become a BIGS!
>
> I saw somewhere recently a report about Cher being on the verge of
> entering the BF. Apparently she thought better of it when she learnt
> she would have to give up sex, drugs and rock n'roll. At least they
> told her in advance. If I can turn the link up again I'll post it.
David Piff's "Bahai Lore" contains a section of reports on
"celebrities" who were, are, about to be or who just could not be
Bahais. A number of informants contributed versions of lore on Cher.
Seegar's post is an amalgam of what is in Piff's book - to wit
(F1-040a) that she attended the Oklahoma City Youth Conference in
1973, (F1-040band F1-040e)) that she declared there, and (F1-040c)
that Seals and Croft were involved. Apparently she left the BF,
according to one version, because the members of the Bahai community
objected to her "outrageous lifestyle."
> > As for Queen Marie - if they can't produce a signed Declaration
Card,
> > I would have my doubts about her "membership".
> >
> You'll get no argument from me (on this at least).
Well, if not on this - I hope on something else!
> Dodging the scythe (and hopefully the curse) of the Grim Reaper,
The scythe is at its best when social workers are about and the Curse
of the Reaper is reserved only for those who are unmitigated liars and
blackguards. I don't think you'll have to fear it.
Dermod.
>
> Brid
Susan Maneck
Brid
> Welcome aboard TRB Brid,
>
> Nice to here a voice from down Kildare way on TRB. We have shared on another
> list, and you remember there was a BIGS plant there. Well watch out here as
> there are at least three BIGS working for the Administrative Order on TRB.
>
> GF
>
Fartin though. This list has hit a new low. Still, there are always
true gentlemen like Cal around to restore faith in humanity and
elevate our discussions to a loftier plane.
Brid
Susan Maneck
>Fartin though.
Brid,
Fardin made his appearance here mostly because George was spamming his own list
SCI with anti-Baha'i stuff.
warmest, Susan
george.fleming2
sma...@aol.com wrote on 4/2/03 11:32 pm:
Had it been pro-baha'i material that would have been a different story. So
Susan approves of this reaction by this hot headed foul mouthed Iranian. So
now we know what some Iranian's are like underneath once you scratch the
surface.
in article o5U%9.425$vu6.56...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com, sirknight67 at
sirkn...@prodigy.net wrote on 4/2/03 7:00 pm:
> the only Arab here is the one doing your fat Irish mother in the backstreet
> of a london slum you mother whoring mic bastard. For your information I am
> Zoroastrian not to mention a Gilak, which means arabs (who are now as we
> speak mixing their genes with your familly line) never made it there without
> losing a testicle or two. Then again, these words couldn't possibly ring any
> truth in the ears of a drunk mic bastard who can't speak his own language
> because he's heard his mother speak sloppy english at home to pelase her
> "clients". After all, those fine english lads were providing your mother
> with much needed income to buy a few packs to get your comatose father
> through the week and unemployment while the IRI was being cracked down by
> those fine English lads!
>
> And as for Arabs, I wouldn't hate them too much if I were you, leave that to
> us Persians. Arabs are good clients for your mother and if you're lucky (you
> know what they say about the luck of the Iish), a couple more sheikhs and
> fat emirs and your mother will be able to afford that fine green dress she
> always wanted to wear on St Patty's day, since her other one is stained with
> puke from her last hangover!!!
>
> You dumb Mic you, run home Boyo run home, mum might be back with a couple of
> extra Kilean's...it's been a good day at the brothel in Liverpool!!!
>
>
>
Pat Kohli
Brid wrote:
> Pat Kohli <kohliCUT...@ameritel.net> wrote in message news:<3E3F299C...@ameritel.net>...
> > Brid wrote:
> >
> > Wecome to usenet, Brid. I think it is great to see so much interest in
> > Queen Marie, from Belfast.
> >
> Thank you Pat. From Belfast to Bucharest to Baltimore via Kildare,
> Kabul and the Kalahari there is great interest in Queen Marie. And why
> not?
Balance?
> A remarkable woman doomed to live, as the Chinese say, in
> "interesting times". I recommend Hannah Pakula's biography to you as a
> cracking good read, even if she reckons the Queen's interest in the BF
> merits one small paragraph.
>
You are remarkable. There are many remarkable people in the world, millions, if not billions. We
seldom take the time to appreciate them all, instead allowing our attention to focus on a few members
of our species - the famous.
>
> > Yes. Let's compare quotes.
>
> No, let's not waste time. I'm not disputing her genuine interest in
> the BF as my post to Lux made clear, just the OTT royal toadying the
> Baha'is do about it.
>
I was quite mistaken about you. I suspect you have more of the internet lingo than I do. I'm
inferring that OTT is over the top? In that vein, I suspect the royal toadying is not
disproportionately Baha'i. When I was a seeker, I can't recall if there was any mention of any royal
Baha'is - I try not to hold royalty as special, and I doubt that those who introduced me to the BF saw
it as a big deal. Just as there are some yanks who made a big deal of Princess Diana (not a Baha'i),
it does not surprise me that some Baha'is made a bigger deal of some Baha'i who was Royalty, than they
made of Martha Root, or Frank Scott, or hundreds of other Baha'is who lived the Baha'i life in capital
letters every day for dozens of years.
>
> >
> > > The talking up of the interest of the rich and
> > > famous in the BF is a long-established phenomenon (still with us today
> > > - just look at Cher) and IMHO one of its least-attractive features.
> >
> > Yes, please show me a Cher connection. Are you referring to Cher
> > Holt-Fortin, or Cher Gupta- Fletcher of Lisle, or, perhaps an entirely
> > different Cher?
> >
> No I mean the former Mrs Sonny Bono Cher.
She was introduced on a stage as a Baha'i 30 years ago, and everyone knows she didn't really join? As
I understand it, I won't find Baha'is telling me that Cher (formerly of Cher & Sonny) is a Baha'i. Is
that right?
> Others have kindly provided
> the information for me. I will enclose a review of the uncritical
> Baha'i work on Queen M for your delectation instead:
>
Back to my mistakes. Though you may not think it is a big thing to look up something relevant, and
credible, and paste it right here, with all the time I've spent on TRB in the past five months, reading
other messages from Belfast, I'd come to have an expectation, and, thank you for blowing it away. I
was starting to think that newcomers from your corner
>
> Della Marcus in Her Eternal Crown, Queen Marie of Romania and the
> Bahá'í Faith explores how the religion first came to attention in the
> royal palaces of the Balkans. I must confess that prior to reading
> this book I was woefully ignorant of the story of Queen Marie. I had
> encountered the denial of her involvement in the Bahá'í Faith by her
> daughter, Princess Ileana, in William Miller's book The Bahá'í Faith:
> its history and teachings. This caused me to peruse the index of a
> couple of biographies of the queen and finding no mention of the
> Bahá'í Faith therein, conclude that the queen had probably made a few
> polite remarks in response to overtures from Bahá'ís. Consequently, I
> relegated Queen Marie, along with Cher and Mr Spock, to the
> netherworld of Bahá'ís whose credentials are entirely composed of the
> wishful thinking of Bahá'ís.
Unless some Baha'i is saying that Cher, or Leonard Nemoy, are Baha'is, this seems to be a stretch.
Even though I am sure that mistakes do get made every day, I would think that the time to correct such
mistakes is when they are made. Resurrecting mistakes made 30 years, which do not get repeated, 'just
for the sake of correcting them' might give the impression that certain parties are closer to the BF
than they really are.
> However, Della Marcus' book totally
> (snip)
>
> http://bahai-library.org/bsr/bsr10/10G_reviews2.htm#t5
Again, thanks for looking into it. I am impressed at your willingness to pursue the relevant
information.
Best wishes!
Seegar
<kohliCUT...@ameritel.net> wrote:
Consequently, I
>> relegated Queen Marie, along with Cher and Mr Spock, to the
>> netherworld of Bahá'ís whose credentials are entirely composed of the
>> wishful thinking of Bahá'ís.
>
>Unless some Baha'i is saying that Cher, or Leonard Nemoy, are Baha'is, this seems to be a stretch.
>Even though I am sure that mistakes do get made every day, I would think that the time to correct such
>mistakes is when they are made. Resurrecting mistakes made 30 years, which do not get repeated, 'just
>for the sake of correcting them' might give the impression that certain parties are closer to the BF
>than they really are.
>
>> However, Della Marcus' book totally
>> (snip)
>>
>> http://bahai-library.org/bsr/bsr10/10G_reviews2.htm#t5
>
>Again, thanks for looking into it. I am impressed at your willingness to pursue the relevant
>information.
>
>Best wishes!
>- Pat
>kohli at ameritel.net
Pat,
I can confirm that Cher did indeed and in fact appear on the stage of
the 1973 Oklahoma City Baha'i Youth Conference, introduced as a new
Baha'i by Seals and Crofts. I was there-saw it.
I really enjoyed listening to the live Seals and Crofts performance.
Peace,
Chris
Brid
particular care as the close association between Naomh Brid and
Cilldara is one not generally known
> to aliens. It's a shame you cannot get the fada in.
Yes but I got it in on my slán to Pat if you look carefully and just
for you O Grim One I will sign off with Bríd. Glad I do not have to
fear you,
Bríd (Brigid)
Brid
> Dia dhuit,
>
> Día's Mhuire dhuit, a Phádraig
> You are remarkable.
Why thank you. People say the nicest things on this list.
> I was quite mistaken about you.
Is that good or bad?
I suspect you have more of the internet lingo than I do.
Doubt it, I'm just a simple ex-baha'i Irish girl and an amateur at
this Internet lark I assure you.
When I was a seeker, I can't recall if there was any mention of any
royal
> Baha'is - I try not to hold royalty as special, and I doubt that those who introduced me to the BF saw
> it as a big deal. Just as there are some yanks who made a big deal of Princess Diana (not a Baha'i),
> it does not surprise me that some Baha'is made a bigger deal of some Baha'i who was Royalty, than they
> made of Martha Root, or Frank Scott, or hundreds of other Baha'is who lived the Baha'i life in capital
> letters every day for dozens of years.
>
Fair enough. When I was a seeker at an Irish Baha'i summer school a
well-respected BIGS saw the Della Marcus book on sale there and
remarked to me that she hated all this Queen Marie stuff in the faith.
Your experience is thus balanced by mind.
> She was introduced on a stage as a Baha'i 30 years ago, and everyone knows she didn't really join? As
> I understand it, I won't find Baha'is telling me that Cher (formerly of Cher & Sonny) is a Baha'i. Is
> that right?
As I said, it was something I remembered reading somewhere and I was
not aware when I mentioned it that it had happened 30 years ago. I am
as happy as you are to have it clarified.
> Back to my mistakes. Though you may not think it is a big thing to look up something relevant, and
> credible, and paste it right here, with all the time I've spent on TRB in the past five months, reading
> other messages from Belfast, I'd come to have an expectation, and, thank you for blowing it away. I
> was starting to think that newcomers from your corner
>
Sorry, you seem to have been cut off in mid-stream here. Newcomers
from my corner what?
> Again, thanks for looking into it. I am impressed at your willingness to pursue the relevant
> information.
>
The pleasure is all mine. I am interested in the pursuit of knowledge
and truth.
Best wishes!
> - Pat
> kohli at ameritel.net
Ádh mór
Bríd
Paul Hammond
> Dia dhuit,
>
> Brid wrote:
>
> > Pat Kohli <kohliCUT...@ameritel.net> wrote in message news:<3E3F299C...@ameritel.net>...
> >
> > > Yes. Let's compare quotes.
> >
> > No, let's not waste time. I'm not disputing her genuine interest in
> > the BF as my post to Lux made clear, just the OTT royal toadying the
> > Baha'is do about it.
> >
>
> I was quite mistaken about you. I suspect you have more of the internet lingo than I do. I'm
> inferring that OTT is over the top?
Indeed - and not just on the net. I drank a strong beer the
other day whose name was O.T.T. (supposed to stand for "Old
Tongham Tasty", but really all of a piece with such beer
names as "Tanglefoot" and "Baz's Bonce Blower") It wasn't
as nice as their weaker, standard brew, T.E.A. (Traditional
English Ale). A pint of TEA please, barman!
In that vein, I suspect the royal toadying is not
> disproportionately Baha'i. When I was a seeker, I can't recall if there was any mention of any royal
> Baha'is - I try not to hold royalty as special, and I doubt that those who introduced me to the BF saw
> it as a big deal. Just as there are some yanks who made a big deal of Princess Diana (not a Baha'i),
> it does not surprise me that some Baha'is made a bigger deal of some Baha'i who was Royalty, than they
> made of Martha Root, or Frank Scott, or hundreds of other Baha'is who lived the Baha'i life in capital
> letters every day for dozens of years.
>
Now, this is an interesting perspective on the whole thing.
Does anyone here dispute that Martha Root was a Baha'i? It's
books about her life we should be reading for our Baha'i
examples, not worrying about Royal scalps.
Brid is right about that - there is a real Baha'i problem
with going weak at the knees for high-status people.
>
> > Others have kindly provided
> > the information for me. I will enclose a review of the uncritical
> > Baha'i work on Queen M for your delectation instead:
> >
>
> Back to my mistakes. Though you may not think it is a big thing to look up something relevant, and
> credible, and paste it right here, with all the time I've spent on TRB in the past five months, reading
> other messages from Belfast, I'd come to have an expectation, and, thank you for blowing it away. I
> was starting to think that newcomers from your corner
>
Brid's an impressive poster, Pat - her contributions to
George's thread in Beliefnet have turned it from a
slagging match into a discussion - even Karen is
now posting on that thread.
George is lucky to have such a friend - as you pointed
out in another post, perhaps God is looking after him
in some way.
I guess you meant to complete this sentence originally!
Paul
Paul Hammond
Blame George for bringing him here. His crossposts to
soc.culture.iranian have annoyed some over there, and
since he posted his intention to spam universities every
time I talked to him (wierd), Fardin took that as a challenge
and threatened to show us what spamming is really like.
Paul
george.fleming2
paha...@onetel.net.uk wrote on 5/2/03 12:51 pm:
> Brid's an impressive poster, Pat - her contributions to
> George's thread in Beliefnet have turned it from a
> slagging match into a discussion - even Karen is
> now posting on that thread.
Correct, I have no need post there now as Brid is covering all my my points
of view (and much more) anyway. In fact I have held back from entering the
ongoing discussion on beliefnet enjoying the ongoing debate. I hope it will
lead to other interesting threads beginning.
However I started the thread and you done your utmost to bait and fight and
carry over ill feelings from TRB to beliefnet all in an attempt to bring the
thread to an end. Good for Brid and I hope she keeps the good work up.
> George is lucky to have such a friend - as you pointed
> out in another post, perhaps God is looking after him
> in some way.
I have many friends on other lists and a few here to. But indeed Brid is to
be congratulated for entering into debate were many others are frightened
off by the antics of others. I have also had private posts from others
supporting me in my stand against the bully boys of TRB......GF
george.fleming2
I take it you support Fardin's (who is a Baha'i by the Way) personal attack
on my dead mothers sexual behaviour, and the racist remarks against all the
paddies in paddyland being piss-artists while he satisfies the sexual
pleasures of Irish Colleens in Canada with his ever so good looking penis.
GF
Dermod Ryder
just
> for you O Grim One I will sign off with Bríd. Glad I do not have to
> fear you,
You got off to a good start here - recognising that the DST is a
definite handicap to those trying to project a positive image of the
AO.
Dermod
>
>
> Bríd (Brigid)
Pat Kohli
Seegar wrote:
> On Tue, 04 Feb 2003 19:38:21 -0500, Pat Kohli
> <kohliCUT...@ameritel.net> wrote:
>
> (snip)
> >Again, thanks for looking into it. I am impressed at your willingness to pursue the relevant
> >information.
> >
> >Best wishes!
> >- Pat
> >kohli at ameritel.net
>
> Pat,
>
> I can confirm that Cher did indeed and in fact appear on the stage of
> the 1973 Oklahoma City Baha'i Youth Conference, introduced as a new
> Baha'i by Seals and Crofts. I was there-saw it.
>
> I really enjoyed listening to the live Seals and Crofts performance.
I saw your remarks to that effect elsewhere, and I am glad that you have some basis as to why this is
discussed. I meant to suggest that the topic of Cher being a Baha'i is not being raised by Baha'is, as it
was done 30 years ago when there was some basis for saying so.
I'd heard that Seals and Crofts were Baha'is, from a Unitarian.
Pat Kohli
Brid wrote:
> Pat Kohli <kohliCUT...@ameritel.net> wrote in message news:<3E405CFC...@ameritel.net>...
> (snip)
> > Back to my mistakes. Though you may not think it is a big thing to look up something relevant, and
> > credible, and paste it right here, with all the time I've spent on TRB in the past five months, reading
> > other messages from Belfast, I'd come to have an expectation, and, thank you for blowing it away. I
> > was starting to think that newcomers from your corner
> >
> Sorry, you seem to have been cut off in mid-stream here. Newcomers
> from my corner what?
>
Please pardon my slang and my poor grammar. I was referring to the kingdom of the O'Neills, habitude of two
other readers of this newsgroup (one w/ his wits about him), the other one who started the thread.
>
> (snip)
>
> Ádh mór
>
> Bríd
It is always a pleasure meeting a simple ex-Baha'i Irish girl, who has her full complement of diacriticals,
and her taroof in good working order.
All the Best!