Lady Di and Dr. Dave
Cal E. Rollins
Paul, Errol9,
Have you UKers no shame? What is this about Di's demise being
suspicious, and she saw it coming? It all sounds too much like Kelly's
sad end. Do you people always do away with your best and brightest and
keep the toads happily in place? We in America never do that. Right?
So have the investigators and the media made any connection between the
two cases? Is there a Middle Eastern connection? Sure sounds like it
from what one hears on CNN. --Cal
Randy Burns
Kelly's affairs with Di, way back when, you know, when she was still alive
(and so was he).
Cheers, Randy
--
"Cal E. Rollins" <crol...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:4018-3F...@storefull-2333.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Brid
> Be suspicious Cal! This is only coming out now to divert attention from Dr.
> Kelly's affairs with Di, way back when, you know, when she was still alive
> (and so was he).
>
> Cheers, Randy
Indeed, and be even more suspicious when you hear that Di was secretly
studying Ruhi Book 1 with an Arab/American female army sergeant who,
like Di herself, was also a 'flirtatious divorcee'.
Cal, you haven't heard the half of it yet.
Brid
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
"Brid" <bridci...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d5a5c190.03102...@posting.google.com...
I though she was studying Rudi Book One.
Cal E. Rollins
Well, don't laugh at Di and Dr. and me either. CNN said this morn that
the Royal Family is suing the newspaper for publishing the butler's
story and the Egyptian Muslims are pissed because their best and
brightest was assassinated along with Di (not Dr.).
It's only a matter of time before the Baha'i connection is unearthed by
a good British investigative reporter now that the Nation is hot and
ready for UKers to enter our religion by troops. Weren't we told by
Susan and the Universal House of Justice that Allah uses all these folk
to serve our purpose? Just remember you heard all this from me first as
you're cavilling, making jest and merry. --Cal
Brid
> Randy, Brid, Dermod,
>
> Well, don't laugh at Di and Dr. and me either. CNN said this morn that
> the Royal Family is suing the newspaper for publishing the butler's
> story and the Egyptian Muslims are pissed because their best and
> brightest was assassinated along with Di (not Dr.).
Cal,
I'm not laughing anymore. Did you see a new Baha'i 'intelligence'
operative has been outed publicly? The gentlemanly Ross in Canada has
copied his correspondence with 'Omid' from Beliefnet here and just
listen to this:
I am myself worked in the intelligence feild and am quite
aware of the CIA policies for example. I was a civilan cover
agent spying on my saudi roomates post 9/11. The need to shun
people like y'all is very apparent. You are fanatically
academic and only base the truth on what has happend. Not
what is intended to happen. Being quite familiar with the
policy of information supression I have to say its good for
unity. Not debate. Which in the Baha'i faith has no place.
Does Omid know Mai I wonder? Did he know Dodi? This guy clearly knows
where it's at and sees that fanatically academic people basing the
truth on what has happened are the greatest danger the faith faces
today.
Brid
Pat Kohli
Brid wrote:
> crol...@webtv.net (Cal E. Rollins) wrote in message news:<5197-3F9...@storefull-2331.public.lawson.webtv.net>...
> > Randy, Brid, Dermod,
> >
> > Well, don't laugh at Di and Dr. and me either. CNN said this morn that
> > the Royal Family is suing the newspaper for publishing the butler's
> > story and the Egyptian Muslims are pissed because their best and
> > brightest was assassinated along with Di (not Dr.).
>
> Cal,
>
> I'm not laughing anymore. Did you see a new Baha'i 'intelligence'
> operative has been outed publicly? The gentlemanly Ross in Canada has
> copied his correspondence with 'Omid' from Beliefnet here and just
> listen to this:
>
> I am myself worked in the intelligence feild and am quite
> aware of the CIA policies for example. I was a civilan cover
> agent spying on my saudi roomates post 9/11. The need to shun
> people like y'all is very apparent. You are fanatically
> academic and only base the truth on what has happend. Not
> what is intended to happen. Being quite familiar with the
> policy of information supression I have to say its good for
> unity. Not debate. Which in the Baha'i faith has no place.
>
>
I think Jiveh/Omidkhani/(Omid Townsend) has loose screws, such that his wheels are woobling. He has volunteered these
things at other fora. The US government agency which spies on people w/in the US, is the FBI, not the CIA. Omid might
impress the high school girls in the US, with his tales, but people w/ a bit of information on how things really work, will
know that he is uninformed, and not at all persuasive.
>
> Does Omid know Mai I wonder?
I doubt he would; what he says, is of course another matter.
> Did he know Dodi?
(Likewise)
> This guy clearly knows
> where it's at
(uhhhhh .....)
> and sees that fanatically academic people basing the
> truth on what has happened are the greatest danger the faith faces
> today.
Active ignorance (those who believe they know what they are actually ignorant of) does remain a problem.
Best wishes!
- Pat
kohli at ameritel.net
Brid
>
> I think Jiveh/Omidkhani/(Omid Townsend) has loose screws, such that his wheels are woobling.
Townsend? Are you sure about the spelling Pat, it's not Townshend like
himself from Co Galway? This is worse than I thought! :-)
> He has volunteered these things at other fora. The US government
agency >
> which spies on people w/in the US, is the FBI, not the CIA. Omid might
> impress the high school girls in the US, with his tales, but people w/ a bit >
>of information on how things really work, will
> know that he is uninformed, and not at all persuasive.
>
> >
Well, I wondered why he had blown his cover like this myself. I
thought the whole purpose of spying was that you carry it out in
secret and hope the enemy won't find out. I bet there isn't a Saudi
student in the country who will want to room with this fella now. He
persuaded me that he is what St Columbus himself would call a "Walter
Middy" (sic).
> > Does Omid know Mai I wonder?
>
> I doubt he would; what he says, is of course another matter.
>
> > Did he know Dodi?
>
> (Likewise)
>
> > This guy clearly knows
> > where it's at
>
> (uhhhhh .....)
>
> > and sees that fanatically academic people basing the
> > truth on what has happened are the greatest danger the faith faces
> > today.
>
> Active ignorance (those who believe they know what they are actually ignorant of) does remain a problem.
Now on that we can agree. Pat, I was only joking! Honest!
>
> Best wishes!
> - Pat
> kohli at ameritel.net
Brid
Paul Hammond
>
> > crol...@webtv.net (Cal E. Rollins) wrote in message news:<5197-3F9...@storefull-2331.public.lawson.webtv.net>...
> > > Randy, Brid, Dermod,
> > >
> > > Well, don't laugh at Di and Dr. and me either. CNN said this morn that
> > > the Royal Family is suing the newspaper for publishing the butler's
> > > story and the Egyptian Muslims are pissed because their best and
> > > brightest was assassinated along with Di (not Dr.).
> >
> > Cal,
> >
> > I'm not laughing anymore. Did you see a new Baha'i 'intelligence'
> > operative has been outed publicly? The gentlemanly Ross in Canada has
> > copied his correspondence with 'Omid' from Beliefnet here and just
> > listen to this:
> >
> > I am myself worked in the intelligence feild and am quite
> > aware of the CIA policies for example. I was a civilan cover
> > agent spying on my saudi roomates post 9/11. The need to shun
> > people like y'all is very apparent. You are fanatically
> > academic and only base the truth on what has happend. Not
> > what is intended to happen. Being quite familiar with the
> > policy of information supression I have to say its good for
> > unity. Not debate. Which in the Baha'i faith has no place.
> >
> >
>
> I think Jiveh/Omidkhani/(Omid Townsend) has loose screws, such that his wheels are woobling. He has volunteered these
> things at other fora. The US government agency which spies on people w/in the US, is the FBI, not the CIA. Omid might
> impress the high school girls in the US, with his tales, but people w/ a bit of information on how things really work, will
> know that he is uninformed, and not at all persuasive.
>
I don't think it really impresses anyone that he tells
us he used to write reports on his Saudi room-mates.
Maybe they were studying engineering, in an effort to
reduce that countries dependency on well-paid foreign
technicians to exploit their oil resources?
btw - I bought a beer for a muslim friend of my Pakistani
flat-mate once, in Nottingham, do you think I should
turn him in to General Musharraf?
> >
> > Does Omid know Mai I wonder?
>
> I doubt he would; what he says, is of course another matter.
>
> > Did he know Dodi?
>
I know the answer to this one! The Butler did it!
Paul
Cal E. Rollins
This technique of "blowing ones cover" is quite common. Read up on
spying. It's definitely a way to bring attention and drawing out
information and potential informants. I doubt an operative is going to
use a real identify in these matters. The only reason Mai got exposed
was because of David doing a silly thing like killing himself (or
allowing himself to be offed without any backup operation.) --Cal
Cal E. Rollins
Apparently you don't know the long history of the CIA connection to the
Baha'i Faith. We've long been under surveillance and the NSA can verify
that fact. And we know the FBI has been watching us closely since
before the civil rights movement, although why I could never figure out
considering we didn't do much. --Cal
Cal E. Rollins
Academic people, at whatever period, have been the dangerous ones. If
people are smart and mad, "they be bad" as my street friends who speak
Ebonics are fond of saying. Just about anybody who ever made movement
in any system, including the early Faith, were smart, mad, bad folk.
Quddus is one who comes to mind; Tahirih another. When I look back on
the Civil Rights Movement in America, there they were: The Smart, the
Mad, and the Bad. --Cal
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
"Paul Hammond" <paha...@onetel.net.uk> wrote in message
news:c977f97b.03102...@posting.google.com...
> I know the answer to this one! The Butler did it!
No! He only wrote the book!
>
>
> Paul
Pat Kohli
Paul Hammond wrote:
Not you or I; but I don't think we are the audience he seeks to impress. I think it worked in the chatrooms, and now, he tries
it elsewhere on the internet.
>
> Maybe they were studying engineering, in an effort to
> reduce that countries dependency on well-paid foreign
> technicians to exploit their oil resources?
>
Paul, this looks like a serious question! Maybe Waldo Mitty (sic) could answer it?
>
> btw - I bought a beer for a muslim friend of my Pakistani
> flat-mate once, in Nottingham, do you think I should
> turn him in to General Musharraf?
Or General Motors.
>
> > >
> > > Does Omid know Mai I wonder?
> >
> > I doubt he would; what he says, is of course another matter.
> >
> > > Did he know Dodi?
> >
>
> I know the answer to this one! The Butler did it!
>
That's what I'm sayin'!
- Pat
Pat Kohli
Brid wrote:
> Pat Kohli <kohliCUT...@ameritel.net> wrote in message news:<3F9DD99B...@ameritel.net>...
> >
> > I think Jiveh/Omidkhani/(Omid Townsend) has loose screws, such that his wheels are woobling.
>
> Townsend? Are you sure about the spelling Pat, it's not Townshend like
> himself from Co Galway? This is worse than I thought! :-)
Yes, Townsend, but it was George Townsend's last name, wasn't it? Or, was it Townshend?
>
>
> > He has volunteered these things at other fora. The US government
> agency >
> > which spies on people w/in the US, is the FBI, not the CIA. Omid might
> > impress the high school girls in the US, with his tales, but people w/ a bit >
> >of information on how things really work, will
> > know that he is uninformed, and not at all persuasive.
> >
> > >
>
> Well, I wondered why he had blown his cover like this myself. I
> thought the whole purpose of spying was that you carry it out in
> secret and hope the enemy won't find out. I bet there isn't a Saudi
> student in the country who will want to room with this fella now. He
> persuaded me that he is what St Columbus himself would call a "Walter
> Middy" (sic).
>
Middy! There is spying, and then there is "Spies Like Us".
>
> > > Does Omid know Mai I wonder?
> >
> > I doubt he would; what he says, is of course another matter.
> >
> > > Did he know Dodi?
> >
> > (Likewise)
> >
> > > This guy clearly knows
> > > where it's at
> >
> > (uhhhhh .....)
>
> >
> > > and sees that fanatically academic people basing the
> > > truth on what has happened are the greatest danger the faith faces
> > > today.
> >
> > Active ignorance (those who believe they know what they are actually ignorant of) does remain a problem.
>
> Now on that we can agree. Pat, I was only joking! Honest!
I'm with you!
- Pat
Susan Maneck
>Well, I wondered why he had blown his cover like this myself.
Dear Brid,
There is another post he made on beliefnet in response to Eric wherein he
admitted to once believing he was Dajjal, the Anti-Christ and even writing the
House of Justice to that effect. The House wrote his father and told him to get
the boy some help.
It's obvious this young man needs help again and anyone with integrity would
not be forwarding his posts here and trying to pass them off as something
typical of Baha'is.
warmest, Susan
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st
Cal E. Rollins
Who's Dajjal, the Anti-Christ? --Cal
Paul Hammond
Has Mai been exposed?
I have yet to read the evidence.
Paul
Paul Hammond
> >
> >Well, I wondered why he had blown his cover like this myself.
>
> Dear Brid,
>
> There is another post he made on beliefnet in response to Eric wherein he
> admitted to once believing he was Dajjal, the Anti-Christ and even writing the
> House of Justice to that effect. The House wrote his father and told him to get
> the boy some help.
>
I never saw this post.
I think it is clear that this young man should not be
taken as a typical Baha'i, but you've got to admit that
some of the things he says are delicious.
I had almost missed the joy of "some people are extreme
academics, and try to decide the truth only by considering
what actually happened" (I paraphrase, but the actual quote
is in this thread).
Would you say, that, as an academic you engage in the
study of "what actually happened"?
That seems like a good definition to me!
Paul
Paul Hammond
From my local paper yesterday:
'When [The Local Rag] attempted to interview two women
buying it, they refused to be named, and claimed they
were buying it as a present, and had "no intention
of reading it".'
Priceless!
I am, however, sick and tired of Paul Burrell milking
his 15 minutes of fame for all they are worth. On Monday,
after an interesting and intelligent interview with
Madeleine Albright (she too has a book out), Richard and
Judy devoted the whole of the remaining half-hour of
their show to an "exclusive" interview with Burrell,
which I had to switch over from in disgust after a
few minutes.
I thought it was my favourite columnist, David
Aaronovitch who said it best, but it must have been
someone else - the shade of Diana will be raising
a glass to her ability to still make the front
pages for a week, six years after she died.
Here's the Aaronovitch column anyway, for anyone
who is interested. Incidentally, I pretty much
agree with him about last week's Everyman on
the "power of prayer" - I too thought "that
means it was statistically insignificant"
where he did.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1071490,00.html
Brid
>
> Dear Brid,
>
> There is another post he made on beliefnet in response to Eric wherein he
> admitted to once believing he was Dajjal, the Anti-Christ and even writing the
> House of Justice to that effect. The House wrote his father and told him to get
> the boy some help.
>
> It's obvious this young man needs help again and anyone with integrity would
> not be forwarding his posts here and trying to pass them off as something
> typical of Baha'is.
>
> warmest, Susan
Who said they were typical of Baha'is? Susan, I fear you misunderstood
my harmless mischief-making for malevolence, I'm poking a little
gentle fun at the Mai/Di/conspiracy theorists. People like this poor
cratur Omid are to be found in every religion, my own is full of them.
The lad does indeed need help, I hope his local community is able to
provide the pastoral care he needs. Failure to properly address the
needs of suffering Baha'is can only create loose cannons who do a lot
of damage to themselves, to others and ultimately to the cause they
espouse. On that at least I'm sure we can agree.
Brid
Susan Maneck
>Would you say, that, as an academic you engage in the
>study of "what actually happened"?
>
>
Well, that is kind of what historians do. But Omid was connecting this to the
Remeyites somehow and I don't know of a scholar among them. Wait a minute,
there was one guy who taught comparative religion who was posting here for
awhile. He was declared a Covenant breaker by the House of Justice because he
and his wife were secretly spreading Remeyite ideas in the community. But I
think eventually Joel refused to accept him as well.
Cal E. Rollins
It could be a definition to describe what an academic is except for the
word "actually." Good academics considerably would have to qualify
that. --Cal
Cal E. Rollins
Well the media seemed to do pretty well exposing Mai, especially when
they quoted her two husbands. The best exposure was when the Pentagon
put her in hiding. --Cal
Cal E. Rollins
Lots of Baha'is have said they were the Anti-Christ, just as some have
said we were. Maybe this Dajjal-person is the Anti-Christ. How can the
House of Justice determine who is or isn't who they claim they are
unless it's a Guardian or another Manifestation? If the poor guy thinks
he's what he says he is, let him prove it. Shoot, I used to have a
neighbor whom I swore was the Anti-Christ. If I could have found a
bunch of garlic cheap, I would have hung it on her door just to let her
know I recognized her. My friends said with the garlic business I was
mixing her up with Dracula. But at any rate she was definitely
Archetypal Anti-.
Do you know who Dajjal is that Susan was talking about? Never heard of
him. --Cal
Susan Maneck
>my harmless mischief-making for malevolence,
Dear Brid,
I just do not feel comfortable with everyone taking posts from a mentally ill
person on another list and bringing them here to mock. You didn't start that,
the Remeyites did.
>Failure to properly address the
>needs of suffering Baha'is can only create loose cannons who do a lot
>of damage to themselves, to others and ultimately to the cause they
>espouse.
It looks like they are doing everything they can in this case, and have been
for some time.
>On that at least I'm sure we can agree.
Yes, and Christians do have some advantages over us in this area. You have more
resources.
warmest, Susan
Randy Burns
Di is the Elvis of Royalty. Did you catch the new Forbes ratings of TOP
DEAD WAGE EARNERS?
Elvis was number one of course. Elvis made more money than Jesus!
Cheers, Randy
--
"Paul Hammond" <paha...@onetel.net.uk> wrote in message
news:c977f97b.03103...@posting.google.com...
Paul Hammond
> Let's face it Paul
>
> Di is the Elvis of Royalty. Did you catch the new Forbes ratings of TOP
> DEAD WAGE EARNERS?
>
> Elvis was number one of course. Elvis made more money than Jesus!
>
> Cheers, Randy
>
You'll be in trouble with Jerry for saying that Jesus is dead,
Randy.
Careful - he might make you race against Darrick or something...
Paul
Brid
> Do you know who Dajjal is that Susan was talking about? Never heard of
> him. --Cal
Cal,
Dajjal seems to be the Muslim version of the Anti-Christ. Google threw
up a most interesting site which claims to give an Islamic analysis of
the Anti-Christ and the new world order. The right-wing Christian
version of the end times, the Anti-Christ etc. has never done much for
me so maybe I should give these guys a hearing. The site has a cool
calculator running which clocks up how much the war in Iraq is
costing. It first boasts a Department of Psycho-Social Engineering
which hosts such intriguing items as 'EU rules would force churches to
hire pagans and satanists' and 'Bikini vs Burkha - the debauchery of
American womanhood'. The Department of Offense and Defense offers
items such as 'Muslims suspend laws of physics!' and 'Scientists build
tiny computer from DNA'. There's much more besides, looks like a
wonderful collection of the weird and whacky. You can check it out at:
Paul Hammond
>
> Dajjal seems to be the Muslim version of the Anti-Christ. Google threw
> up a most interesting site which claims to give an Islamic analysis of
> the Anti-Christ and the new world order. The right-wing Christian
> version of the end times, the Anti-Christ etc. has never done much for
> me so maybe I should give these guys a hearing. The site has a cool
> calculator running which clocks up how much the war in Iraq is
> costing. It first boasts a Department of Psycho-Social Engineering
> which hosts such intriguing items as 'EU rules would force churches to
> hire pagans and satanists' and 'Bikini vs Burkha - the debauchery of
> American womanhood'. The Department of Offense and Defense offers
> items such as 'Muslims suspend laws of physics!' and 'Scientists build
> tiny computer from DNA'. There's much more besides, looks like a
> wonderful collection of the weird and whacky. You can check it out at:
>
> http://etori.tripod.com/dajjalsystem/home.htm
Interesting site indeed, Brid!
I followed one of the links, suggesting that Harry Potter might
be an Occult Conspiracy, and found it took me to an article
at "The Insider", a conspiracy site that Error has
quoted to us before in support of his crackpot views on
Dr Kelly's death.
I'd have to say that having read this article about Harry
Potter and its "666 pages", which turns out to be false, I'm
not sure whether the Insider itself is meant to be a spoof
on conspiracy theories, or if its writers are really serious.
Thanks for the pointer to an interesting site (the "Dajjal
system" site, not the insider)
Regards,
Paul
http://www.theinsider.org/mailing/article.asp?id=367
Harry Potter: Occult Conspiracy?
The book, called 'Order of the Phoenix', contains 666 pages excluding
the prologue, and it first went on sale in a series of unusual opening
ceremonies held in major book shops throughout the world at exactly
midnight on the eve of the Summer Solstice.
There is certainly more to this than simply a marketing gimmick,
because there was no mention of the solstice in the promotional
literature or even the mass media, and the number of pages is always
officially quoted as 766. However, the timing and pagination seem
unlikely to be the result of coincidence, because these factors are
connected to the occult, which is the theme of the book, and the
author evidently possesses a degree of insight into the Craft.
---
Well, on reading this, I picked up my copy of the book, and turned to
the
last page - which is indeed page 766.
However, I am unsure what this reference to "666 pages, excluding the
prologue" means - page 100 is about 8 pages into the middle of Chapter
six, and there *is* no prologue in the book. Chapter one describes
an attack by a Dementor on Harry's cousin, Dudley Dursley, and
ends on page 23.
The idea that Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix
contains "666 pages excluding the proglogue" is
an easily disproved lie.
Cal E. Rollins
Thanks. If you hear anymore about Dajjal, let me know. I've always been
interested in theories of Anti-Christ ever since my adolescence when it
was alleged to me that the Guardian had placed portraits of the Popes
since Baha'u'llah's declaration in the Mansion of Bahji and had labeled
them Anti-Christs. I was never able to see or verify any of this when I
was in Bahji on pilgrimage.
When I lived in Hawaii, there was considerable talk among natives in
Lilioukalani's church about the spirit of Anti-Christ encircling the
Islands, and it inspired this poem. --Cal
He is Riding
Honolulu
Already he is riding the bright
wave. Eyes sloe, hair blowing
in the night sea-breeze.
His skin glistens under the moon.
He is naked and named in every
country but by only a few. I call him Adam.
He has denuded me, undone
the islands with his swift passage.
This phosphorescent messenger
will not be pressed for peace
through his dark coming. He scatters
lives on this ocean like ashes.
Confound him, stars. His finger
points at my heart, and he, alone,
rides the glimmer of the half-moon.
Cal E. Rollins
MALE RAIN
High Born Lady Press, p. 7
Cal E. Rollins
What do you know about Dajjal as an Anti-Christ figure in Islam? Why
would there be a Christian figure as an anti-agent in Islam? --Cal
Brid
> Brid,
>
> Thanks. If you hear anymore about Dajjal, let me know. I've always been
> interested in theories of Anti-Christ ever since my adolescence when it
> was alleged to me that the Guardian had placed portraits of the Popes
> since Baha'u'llah's declaration in the Mansion of Bahji and had labeled
> them Anti-Christs. I was never able to see or verify any of this when I
> was in Bahji on pilgrimage.
How extraordinary! Maybe the Guardian was a little jealous of those
guys. When the Guardian was alive the Pope got to wear a big triple
tiara and was carried around on a throne by flunkeys. Envy isn't one
of the seven deadly sins for nothing.
I have found out some more concrete facts about Dajjal from a Muslim
prophecy site and it gets worse. Apparently he will be blind in his
left eye and will have very thick hair on his body! He will also be
bringing his own type of heaven and hell with him. Other hadith say he
will be short with crooked legs and that the hair on his head will be
extremely twisted. Sounds like you couldn't miss him.
Check it out at http://www.islam.tc/prophecies/masdaj.html
Brid
PS Thank you for the poem.
Susan Maneck
>How extraordinary! Maybe the Guardian was a little jealous of those
>guys.
Dear Brid,
If Cal only 'heard' about such portraits being labeled 'anti-Christ' in the
Mansion of Bahji and he didn't see them while he was there, doesn't it stand to
reason that they probably don't exist? I've certainly never heard of them. I
never heard anyone speak of them either.
>I have found out some more concrete facts about Dajjal from a Muslim
>prophecy site and it gets worse.
<snip>
>Sounds like you couldn't miss him.
When E.G. Browne was in Persia his Baha'i teacher told him that Dajjal wa
s a reference to the 'ulama collectively.
Brid
> >
> >How extraordinary! Maybe the Guardian was a little jealous of those
> >guys.
>
> Dear Brid,
>
> If Cal only 'heard' about such portraits being labeled 'anti-Christ' in the
> Mansion of Bahji and he didn't see them while he was there, doesn't it stand to
> reason that they probably don't exist? I've certainly never heard of them. I
> never heard anyone speak of them either.
George told me about some of the portraits he saw when working in
Haifa, I think he told me my old pal Queen Marie of Romania is among
them. He never mentioned the Popes though. Mind you even as a mere
rumour Cal's hearsay will cause alarm at a big church on the Ravenhill
Road in Belfast (prop: Rev I.R.K. Paisley)because the notion that the
Holy Father is the anti-Christ is their beloved pastor's line. Maybe
this is where your next entry by troops will come from? The Free
Presbyterians are already half way there, they feel the same way about
ritual as Pat, they abjure the use of the devil's buttermilk and
tobacco, they have a reputation for being strait-laced and humourless,
they have a well-developed sense of being God's elect and last, but by
no means least, they are used to handing over their money in the famed
'silent collections'. I doubt you'll find too many of them wanting to
pay their subs to Amnesty International either! No problems with the
death penalty there! Why aren't you making more of this constituency?
Another opportunity missed!
>
> >I have found out some more concrete facts about Dajjal from a Muslim
> >prophecy site and it gets worse.
> <snip>
> >Sounds like you couldn't miss him.
>
> When E.G. Browne was in Persia his Baha'i teacher told him that Dajjal wa
> s a reference to the 'ulama collectively.
Bet if you had been there you could have asked the teacher a question
he couldn't answer and added his scalp to those of Kung and Pannikar!
:-)
>
> warmest, Susan
and warmer still,
Brid
Susan Maneck
>he couldn't answer and added his scalp to those of Kung and Pannikar!
>:-)
>
Actually, I thought Pannikar got the best of me!
Cal E. Rollins
Well I certainly didn't make up the stuff about the Popes in Bahji. I'm
surprised, Susan, you hadn't heard about it in Tucson, because that's
where I first heard about it, from a famous Baha'i in fact, before the
Guardian had died. I also found references to it in pilgrims' notes
that I will dig out today if I can. It may be on Internet.
It was around the same time as there was all that talk about the Letters
of Fatima and the last one telling the Pope that the first two letters
of the name of Christ returned was B-A. I heard that one from Phil.
The story went that the Pope said instead that it read "Pray for peace."
Also that story about the Hand of the Cause Giachery or somebody working
in the Vatican library where he allegedly came upon Baha'u'llah's letter
to the Pope in the files and became a Baha'i. It was also about that
time ('59-'60) that the Carmelite Nun (I asked our Baha'i Carmelite Nun,
Robin, if she'd heard about it and hadn't) wrote in a Catholic magazine
that the Faith was Anti-Christ and went on to warn about our activities
on Mt. Carmel. I had a copy back then but long ago lost it, never able
to find out anything more about it. Can't even remember the name of the
magazine or journal.
I do recall having been considerably cowed on pilgrimage and not wanting
to ask gutsy questions. But I did look at the walls behind the display
cases and didn't see any Popes. I figured maybe they were in rooms we
couldn't see. But now that we're on the subject I'll sure track that
stuff down by asking some folk my age and maybe more lucid than I. --Cal
Cal E. Rollins
Short with crooked legs and twisted hair? Sounds more like a Martian
rock star than an Anti-Christ. Well that definitely wasn't the image I
saw when I wrote my poem. Dajjal looking like that riding the surf in
Hawaii definitely wouldn't attract any following. --Cal
Randy Burns
Randy
--
"Brid" <bridci...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d5a5c190.03110...@posting.google.com...
> sma...@aol.com (Susan Maneck ) wrote in message
news:<20031101104804...@mb-m05.aol.com>...
> > >
Cal E. Rollins
Hm-m-m. Does the guy who wrote the House of Justice that he was the
Anti-Christ have any of those characteristics? I've got a blind left
eye but definitely no hair on my head, although 20 years ago one could
say it was curly (kinky). And my legs used to be my best feature. Thank
God some wise-ass like Paul can't say I fit the description, although
that neighbor lady I used to know and hate does to a "t" except I doubt
she speaks Arabic. Now that I think on it, she did go to the Peace
Corps in some North African country... --Cal
Brid
> Brid, Susan,
>
> Well I certainly didn't make up the stuff about the Popes in Bahji. I'm
> surprised, Susan, you hadn't heard about it in Tucson, because that's
> where I first heard about it, from a famous Baha'i in fact, before the
> Guardian had died. I also found references to it in pilgrims' notes
> that I will dig out today if I can. It may be on Internet.
Cal,
This sounds genuinely fascinating. If you can dig out any of those
references I'd love to follow them up.
>
> It was around the same time as there was all that talk about the Letters
> of Fatima and the last one telling the Pope that the first two letters
> of the name of Christ returned was B-A. I heard that one from Phil.
What are these letters of Fatima? Do you mean the three secrets of
Fatima associated with the alleged apparition of the BVM to three
peasant children in Portugal in 1917? The first secret concerned the
early deaths of two of the three young visionaries, the second
referred to the outbreak of WWII. The third secret, although in the
possession of the Vatican since 1957, was only revealed recently by
the present Pope. It referred to an apocalyptic vision of destruction
and chaos on a worldwide scale and made a particular reference to a
man dressed in white being shot down before a crowd of people. This
was held to be a reference to the assassination attempt on Pope John
Paul II by a Turkish gunman in May 1981, ironically on the anniversary
of the first apparition at Fatima. I don't remember ever hearing
anything about the first two letters of the name of Christ returned.
> The story went that the Pope said instead that it read "Pray for peace."
> Also that story about the Hand of the Cause Giachery or somebody working
> in the Vatican library where he allegedly came upon Baha'u'llah's letter
> to the Pope in the files and became a Baha'i. It was also about that
> time ('59-'60) that the Carmelite Nun (I asked our Baha'i Carmelite Nun,
> Robin, if she'd heard about it and hadn't) wrote in a Catholic magazine
> that the Faith was Anti-Christ and went on to warn about our activities
> on Mt. Carmel. I had a copy back then but long ago lost it, never able
> to find out anything more about it. Can't even remember the name of the
> magazine or journal.
>
Is the Carmelite nun the original Fatima visionary Sister Lucia? Can
you tell me anything else about the Hand of the Cause Giachery?
> I do recall having been considerably cowed on pilgrimage and not wanting
> to ask gutsy questions. But I did look at the walls behind the display
> cases and didn't see any Popes. I figured maybe they were in rooms we
> couldn't see. But now that we're on the subject I'll sure track that
> stuff down by asking some folk my age and maybe more lucid than I. --Cal
Cal, I for one would be extremely interested in anything else you can
remember or track down on this. Bet if you were on pilgrimage now
you'd fire those gutsy questions off without any hesitation at all!
Brid
Jerry Joplin
> Is the Carmelite nun the original Fatima visionary Sister Lucia? Can
> you tell me anything else about the Hand of the Cause Giachery?
I'm not sure if this is related, but one of the messages the BVM
allegedly gave to the children at Fatima was to wear the scapular of Mt.
Carmel. It has been interpreted by Catholic's that this refers to the
brown habit of the Carmelite monastic orders. But it has an interesting
second interpretation, doesn't it? Especially considering that perhaps
the BVM revealed the two letters B-A.
I don't want to get into a deep discussion on this, and am content to
leave most of this to the Catholics, but its always been interesting to
me that the BVM appeared at Fatima, named after the daughter of the
prophet Mohammed, and the wife of Ali. The only person I've seen
trying to draw any conclusions from this has been Bishop Fulton Sheen:
http://members.nova.org/~dayalan/MaryMoslems.html
But of course he sees it as a way to convert Muslims to Christianity.
It would seem the more obvious conclusion is that Catholics, Sunni
Muslims and Shia Muslims should put aside their differences under a new
vision. But thats just my interpretation :-)
Jerry
Susan Maneck
>> surprised, Susan, you hadn't heard about it in Tucson, because that's
>> where I first heard about it, from a famous Baha'i in fact, before the
>> Guardian had died.
I wasn't in Tucson before the Guardian died.;-}
> I also found references to it in pilgrims' notes
>> that I will dig out today if I can.
Well, if you can find it, feel free to show it. But it is still hearsay.
>
>> It was around the same time as there was all that talk about the Letters
>> of Fatima and the last one telling the Pope that the first two letters
>> of the name of Christ returned was B-A.
Boy, you must have been hanging around some pretty weird Baha'is. .
>> Also that story about the Hand of the Cause Giachery or somebody working
>> in the Vatican library where he allegedly came upon Baha'u'llah's letter
>> to the Pope in the files and became a Baha'i.
If that were true Mr. Giachery would have written about it himself.
>
>Cal, I for one would be extremely interested in anything else you can
>remember or track down on this.
I'll bet you a dime to a dollar he can't document any of this!
I've certainly never heard these things and I've been a Baha'i for more than
thirty years.
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
> prophecy site and it gets worse. Apparently he will be blind in his
> left eye and will have very thick hair on his body! He will also be
> bringing his own type of heaven and hell with him. Other hadith say he
> will be short with crooked legs and that the hair on his head will be
> extremely twisted. Sounds like you couldn't miss him.
Not there yet .... but I'm working on it now! Thanks for the pointers,
Brid!
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
"Susan Maneck " <sma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031103185202...@mb-m07.aol.com...
> >> It was around the same time as there was all that talk about the
Letters
> >> of Fatima and the last one telling the Pope that the first two letters
> >> of the name of Christ returned was B-A.
>
> Boy, you must have been hanging around some pretty weird Baha'is. .
I was told that one by a BIGS who is now an ABM. Looks like I hung around a
few weird ones as well!
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
news:<bnn46g$n1k$1...@hercules.btinternet.com>...> > news:c977f97b.03102...@posting.google.com...
> > > I know the answer to this one! The Butler did it!
> >
> > No! He only wrote the book!
> >
>
> From my local paper yesterday:
>
> 'When [The Local Rag] attempted to interview two women
> buying it, they refused to be named, and claimed they
> were buying it as a present, and had "no intention
> of reading it".'
>
> Priceless!
>
> I am, however, sick and tired of Paul Burrell milking
> his 15 minutes of fame for all they are worth. On Monday,
> after an interesting and intelligent interview with
> Madeleine Albright (she too has a book out), Richard and
> Judy devoted the whole of the remaining half-hour of
> their show to an "exclusive" interview with Burrell,
> which I had to switch over from in disgust after a
> few minutes.
The Diana story just will not go away. Of course if they had held the
inquest, things might have been different ...
As a devout anti-monarchist I just love it.
Susan Maneck
>I was told that one by a BIGS who is now an ABM. Looks like I hung around a
>few weird ones as well!
Dear Dermod,
So Ireland has a few too?
Everytime I've tried to track weird stuff down I find a lot of it goes back to
Ruth Moffet. She probably has the most unreliable pilgrim's notes around. One
the things she wrote in her book on Revelations is that Abdu'l-Baha said that
the axis of the world would shift. Someone finally tracked this down to a
statement the Master made in Egypt regarding labor disputes. He said the world
would turn on its axis a few times and this would all be resolved. I don't know
if it got resolved but the world has definitely turned on its axis a few times
since then. ;-}
The funny thing is that Mason Remey picked up on this and later the BUPC. It
was central to a lot of their writings on the catastrophe.
warmest, Susan
Brid
> Brid wrote:
> > Is the Carmelite nun the original Fatima visionary Sister Lucia? Can
> > you tell me anything else about the Hand of the Cause Giachery?
>
>
> I'm not sure if this is related, but one of the messages the BVM
> allegedly gave to the children at Fatima was to wear the scapular of Mt.
> Carmel. It has been interpreted by Catholic's that this refers to the
> brown habit of the Carmelite monastic orders. But it has an interesting
> second interpretation, doesn't it? Especially considering that perhaps
> the BVM revealed the two letters B-A.
No, it's not related. The brown scapular predates Fatima by centuries.
The practice of wearing the brown scapular dates back to the 13th
century English Carmelite St Simon Stock. In a vision he received in
1251, the BVM promised that anyone who died clothed as a Carmelite
would not suffer the fires of hell. I don't see your interesting
second interpretation here and the Baha'is would have to produce the
evidence that the BVM said anything about the letters BA.
What interests me in all of this is that some of the followers of the
faith for the modern age which claims to reconcile science and
religion seem to have the same appetite for hearsay and apocalyptic
prophecy as the most credulous Christian.
Brid
Paul Hammond
> "Paul Hammond" <paha...@onetel.net.uk> wrote in message
> news:c977f97b.03103...@posting.google.com...
> > "Dermod Ryder" <grim_reaper MO...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:<bnn46g$n1k$1...@hercules.btinternet.com>...
> > > "Paul Hammond" <paha...@onetel.net.uk> wrote in message
> > > news:c977f97b.03102...@posting.google.com...
> > > > I know the answer to this one! The Butler did it!
> > >
> > > No! He only wrote the book!
> > >
> >
> > From my local paper yesterday:
> >
> > 'When [The Local Rag] attempted to interview two women
> > buying it, they refused to be named, and claimed they
> > were buying it as a present, and had "no intention
> > of reading it".'
> >
> > Priceless!
> >
> > I am, however, sick and tired of Paul Burrell milking
> > his 15 minutes of fame for all they are worth. On Monday,
> > after an interesting and intelligent interview with
> > Madeleine Albright (she too has a book out), Richard and
> > Judy devoted the whole of the remaining half-hour of
> > their show to an "exclusive" interview with Burrell,
> > which I had to switch over from in disgust after a
> > few minutes.
>
> The Diana story just will not go away. Of course if they had held the
> inquest, things might have been different ...
>
I don't understand this "no inquest" thing. I had thought
the French had already held an inquest, and discovered that
the accident was indeed caused by Di and Dodi's driver having
too much alcohol, and driving too fast.
I did hear that these things take much longer in France than
they do over here - so, presumably, it would not have been
possible to hold an inquest here until the French were finished
- but the French inquest finished years ago.
Maybe the government just decided that duplicating the French
investigation would be a waste of effort?
But, no, the fact that there wasn't a British inquest is
just "spooky" isn't it?
Like the latest Harry Potter book *must* be an occult
book promoting satanism because it contains "666 pages
excluding the prologue"
Paul
Susan Maneck
>What interests me in all of this is that some of the followers of the
>faith for the modern age which claims to reconcile science and
>religion seem to have the same appetite for hearsay and apocalyptic
>prophecy as the most credulous Christian.
Dear Brid,
You seemed pretty fascinated by it yourself.
Jerry Joplin
> What interests me in all of this is that some of the followers of the
> faith for the modern age which claims to reconcile science and
> religion seem to have the same appetite for hearsay and apocalyptic
> prophecy as the most credulous Christian.
I think we could say the same thing for the Orthodox Church, don't you Brid?
Jerry
Randy Burns
work load?
Cheers, Randy
--
"Jerry Joplin" <Je...@JerryJoplinNoSchpamm.com> wrote in message
news:vqfgs6i...@corp.supernews.com...
Jerry Joplin
> Does it occur to you that if you and Susan got married you could halve your
> work load?
Has it occured to you that you could save a lot of time in your busy
calendar by abstaining from childish statements like the above?
(Got those examples of Catholic or Orthodox cults ready yet?)
Jerry
Randy Burns
Cheers, Randy
--
"Jerry Joplin" <Je...@JerryJoplinNoSchpamm.com> wrote in message
news:vqfo5na...@corp.supernews.com...
Steve Marshall
That's interesting, Randy. So you feel that you need your own AI
software to prepare your TRB responses.
http://www.manifestation.com/neurotoys/eliza.php3
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
> >
> >I was told that one by a BIGS who is now an ABM. Looks like I hung
around a
> >few weird ones as well!
>
> Dear Dermod,
>
> So Ireland has a few too?
We moved him on - he's in the US now. We prefer the native weird ones to
the imports - largely because the natives perform much better and don't take
things like this at all seriously.
> Everytime I've tried to track weird stuff down I find a lot of it goes
back to
> Ruth Moffet. She probably has the most unreliable pilgrim's notes around.
One
> the things she wrote in her book on Revelations is that Abdu'l-Baha said
that
> the axis of the world would shift. Someone finally tracked this down to a
> statement the Master made in Egypt regarding labor disputes. He said the
world
> would turn on its axis a few times and this would all be resolved. I don't
know
> if it got resolved but the world has definitely turned on its axis a few
times
> since then. ;-}
>
> The funny thing is that Mason Remey picked up on this and later the BUPC.
It
> was central to a lot of their writings on the catastrophe.
Velikovsky also asserted that the world had shifted its axis and reversed
its rotation in the past, without prophetic input or pilgrim's notes to
guide him.
In relation to the Fatima story I think it was one of the stock items that
was circulated for use to impress Fenian enquirers. I recollect listening
to it with interest and somewhat amused that a Persian BIGs and a native
"Prod" BIGS could have sufficient knowledge of a claimed Marian apparition
to talk about the Third Secret. When they informed me that the Pope had
fainted upon reading this news I knew that I was being conned. The so
called Third Secret had been written down by the seer and the local Bishop.
Both of them should have fainted, before the Pope and herself would have
been in Haifa not a Carmelite nunnery if there had been any truth in it.
Actually if it had been thought through they should have realised that this
was a sales pitch for Catholicism. They were asserting the validity of the
Marian apparitions, the central messages of which nowhere state anything
about the Second Coming but stress strict adherence to Catholic doctrine and
practice..
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
> >
> >What interests me in all of this is that some of the followers of the
> >faith for the modern age which claims to reconcile science and
> >religion seem to have the same appetite for hearsay and apocalyptic
> >prophecy as the most credulous Christian.
>
> Dear Brid,
>
> You seemed pretty fascinated by it yourself.
We former Fenians love it but then, Catholicism makes no claims about
reconciling science and religion..
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
"Steve Marshall" <asm...@es.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3kigqvoriqm72ckcu...@4ax.com...
Wow! A Rogering psychotherapist!
Paul Hammond
> Has it occured to you that you could save a lot of time in your busy
> calendar by abstaining from childish statements like the above?
>
has it occured to you that you could save a lot of time in
your busy life by abstaining from childist statements like
the above?
Paul
Jerry Joplin
> We former Fenians love it but then, Catholicism makes no claims about
> reconciling science and religion..
Derwood, its been awhile since you checked your Catechism.
CCC 159. "Faith and SCIENCE: 'Though faith is above reason, there can
never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same
God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of
reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever
contradict truth.'[Dei Filius 4: DS 3017.] 'Consequently, methodical
research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a
truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never
conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things
of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering
investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the
hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all
things, who made them what they are.'[GS 36 # 1.]"
Jerry
Randy Burns
Randy
--
"Steve Marshall" <asm...@es.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3kigqvoriqm72ckcu...@4ax.com...
Susan Maneck
>
>We former Fenians love it but then, Catholicism makes no claims about
>reconciling science and religion..
I was thinking more of her fascination with hearsay, not so much prophecy.
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
> I don't understand this "no inquest" thing. I had thought
> the French had already held an inquest, and discovered that
> the accident was indeed caused by Di and Dodi's driver having
> too much alcohol, and driving too fast.
It is disputed that the driver had consumed alcohol.
> I did hear that these things take much longer in France than
> they do over here - so, presumably, it would not have been
> possible to hold an inquest here until the French were finished
> - but the French inquest finished years ago.
>
> Maybe the government just decided that duplicating the French
> investigation would be a waste of effort?
There have been many deaths here in which it has been alleged that security
forces were illegally involved. In many of these cases inquests were long
delayed and documents not forthcoming. I think that even now, some have not
been held. It just doesn't suit to have certain matters examined too
closely.
> But, no, the fact that there wasn't a British inquest is
> just "spooky" isn't it?
Just strange if it was a straightforward accident. If there's nothing to
hide there's no point in hiding it. And of course, there is that matter of
the missing white car .....
Wasn't there a poll reported recently that showed quite a number of people
thought she had been murdered? I don't subscribe to that POV .. at least
not yet but I would be of the sceptics who remain to be convinced that it
was just an accident.
> Like the latest Harry Potter book *must* be an occult
> book promoting satanism because it contains "666 pages
> excluding the prologue"
So does Anthony Summers "The Kennedy Conspiracy - The Truth?" if you jiggle
the contents pages a bit.
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
"Jerry Joplin" <Je...@JerryJoplinNoSchpamm.com> wrote in message
> Dermod Ryder wrote:
> > We former Fenians love it but then, Catholicism makes no claims about
> > reconciling science and religion..
>
> Derwood, its been awhile since you checked your Catechism.
It certainly has but then ... I 've had no need to.
> CCC 159. "Faith and SCIENCE: 'Though faith is above reason, there can
> never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same
> God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of
> reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever
> contradict truth.'[Dei Filius 4: DS 3017.] 'Consequently, methodical
> research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a
> truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never
> conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things
> of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering
> investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the
> hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all
> things, who made them what they are.'[GS 36 # 1.]"
Did Galileo know about this and what would Pius X make of it? I'll bet he's
rolling in his crypt after all that good work he put into condemning stuff
like this.
>
> Jerry
>
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
> >> You seemed pretty fascinated by it yourself.
> >
> >We former Fenians love it but then, Catholicism makes no claims about
> >reconciling science and religion..
>
> I was thinking more of her fascination with hearsay, not so much prophecy.
Hearsay provides a magnificent insight into the way a community is thinking.
That old Fatima story, for example, shows how much effort is put into
finding something that will interest Fenians and that the community is so
wildy anxious to entrap them that they'll immerse themseves in Catholic
cultic tought and rearrange it, however ineptly, to suit their own agenda.
Now all the religions do that to attract converts so what we're simply
seeing here is that for all its protestations the Bf is no better than any
of them.
Brid
Yes, indeed Dermod. Marian apparations never did form a part of my own
personal faith, but have always held an academic interest for me, as
they are so closely connected with a peculiarly Catholic apocalyptic
vision. The message of the BVM on these occasions is always to get our
act together before it is too late. The official church is always
rather sniffy about these apparitions but I feel this kind of folk
religion seems to fill some sort of unmet need on the part of its
devotees.
I've read up about a number of them, although I'm always interested in
setting these types of visions into their historical context. The
connections between the reported appearances at Knock in 1879 and the
Irish Land League, for example, are quite fascinating.
Equally fascinating to me is the fact that Baha'is show exactly the
same sort of lively, unofficial interest in these matters. I read a
Baha'i article once about the myth of the tree that could not die, we
have the supposed Gamaliel-like response of Queen Victoria to her
letter from Baha'u'llah offered as the reason for the continued
existence of the British monarchy, and now we have some Baha'is
claiming that the secrets of Fatima contain references to their
founder. Curious.
Brid
Steve Marshall
>Wow! A Rogering psychotherapist!
Can you elaborate on that?
http://www.manifestation.com/neurotoys/eliza.php3
Paul Hammond
I'm assuming you read my previous post on the Harry Potter
claim.
I came across this one after I visited the "Dajjal network"
site that Brid flagged up for us - it turns out to link to
one of the sites Error hawked around recently, because
he thought it supported his Dr Kelly rubbish.
Paul
Susan Maneck
>finding something that will interest Fenians and that the community is so
>wildy anxious to entrap them that they'll immerse themseves in Catholic
>cultic tought and rearrange it, however ineptly, to suit their own agenda.
Dear Brid,
You can see it that way if you want. Historically, Christianity often tried to
convert people by debunking their ancestreal religion. The Baha'is, with their
assumption of the oneness of religion, seek to build bridges. As I wrote in my
article on the conversion of religious minorities to the Baha'i Faith in Iran,
"By presenting the Bahá'í Faith as the culmination of all religious traditions,
Bahá'ís were able effectively to present their religion to minorities, both as
an affirmation of their own past as well as a new possibility for facing the
future."
Of course, Christianity has sometimes used this technique as well. The story of
the Wise Men in the New Testament, for instance with its emphasis on the virgin
birth is an attempt to tie Jesus in with Zoroastrian prophecies. The Bible
didn't say the Messiah would be born of a virgin but the Sayoshants in
Zoroastrianism were supposed to be.
>
>
>Now all the religions do that to attract converts so what we're simply
>seeing here is that for all its protestations the Bf is no better than any
>of them.
No better it seems than the Bible, I guess.
warnest, Susan
Jerry Joplin
> Did Galileo know about this and what would Pius X make of it? I'll bet he's
> rolling in his crypt after all that good work he put into condemning stuff
> like this.
Derwood, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, do you?
Jerry
Jerry Joplin
> and now we have some Baha'is
> claiming that the secrets of Fatima contain references to their
> founder. Curious.
Really? Thats an interesting characterization of what has been said so
far. Can you show me where "some Baha'is" clamed the secrets of Fatima
contain references to their founder? How would we know? That's pretty
much kept under wraps in the Catholic Church. Thus far, Cal said he
read something, somewhere, that the BVM said the first two letters of
name of Christ returned was B-A. Then I noted the cloak of Mt Carmel
may have different interpretations. How did you draw your conclusion
that "we have some Baha'is claiming" anything, or did you just make that
part up?
Jerry
Randy Burns
Marian apparition.
Cheers, Randy
--
"Brid" <bridci...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d5a5c190.03110...@posting.google.com...
Cal E. Rollins
I don't know what Brid is doing, but I do know that many folk were going
around in my youth talking about the Letters of Fatima (the B-A one the
Pope saying "Pray for Peace) One of them was a prominent folk singer
whom Star knows. He used to thrill us youth with his stories and song.
And as I said it was about the same time as the alleged Anti-Christ
Popes' pictures and the article from the Carmelite nun in a Catholic
mag. There must be somebody on this list who was around before and
shortly after the Guardian and experienced all this wonderful stuff.
I'm beginning to feel like one of the Kluge relics. --Cal
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
"Jerry Joplin" <Je...@JerryJoplinNoSchpamm.com> wrote in message
> Really? Thats an interesting characterization of what has been said so
> far. Can you show me where "some Baha'is" clamed the secrets of Fatima
> contain references to their founder?
I have just told you that two BIGS related that tale to me. It is generally
taken for granted here that posters do not lie when they relate tales,
events or happenings. Obviously that did not penetrate your dormant organ.
A spell in Father Jack's underpants hamper is far too good for the likes of
you.
You want documentation?
Fine! Try "Unofficial Bahai Lore" by David Piff - at page 334 C3b-003a
Variant; C3b-003b "The pope (sic) who read the secret [of Fatima] burst into
tears on reading that Christ would return in the letters 'ba' and 'ha'"
And just below that:-
C3b-004 Hand of the Cause Ugo Giachery located Bahaullah's Tablet to the
Pope in the Vatican Archives but could not remove it. (He tried).
> How would we know? That's pretty
> much kept under wraps in the Catholic Church.
That's the point, dork! It's all Kitab i Hearsay.
> Thus far, Cal said he
> read something, somewhere, that the BVM said the first two letters of
> name of Christ returned was B-A. Then I noted the cloak of Mt Carmel
> may have different interpretations. How did you draw your conclusion
> that "we have some Baha'is claiming" anything, or did you just make that
> part up?
Hello! The lights are on but nobody's at home!
>
> Jerry
>
Cal E. Rollins
You're versed in Google it seems. See if you can find anything out
about the Faith and the Letters of Fatima. And I'll research what I can
find.
Didn't somebody recently write a book on Baha'i urban legends? I
vaguely recall seeing a blurb about it in an American Baha'i Review
library section. --Cal
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
Yes but I'm not going to.
Jerry Joplin
> I have just told you that two BIGS related that tale to me. It is generally
> taken for granted here that posters do not lie when they relate tales,
> events or happenings. Obviously that did not penetrate your dormant organ.
> A spell in Father Jack's underpants hamper is far too good for the likes of
> you.
Derwood, its generally taken for granted here that nothing you say is
noteworthy. Anyway, I don't like your rules, so I'm not following them.
> You want documentation?
>
> Fine! Try "Unofficial Bahai Lore" by David Piff - at page 334 C3b-003a
> Variant; C3b-003b "The pope (sic) who read the secret [of Fatima] burst into
> tears on reading that Christ would return in the letters 'ba' and 'ha'"
>
> And just below that:-
>
> C3b-004 Hand of the Cause Ugo Giachery located Bahaullah's Tablet to the
> Pope in the Vatican Archives but could not remove it. (He tried).
And when were these on TRB?
>
>>How would we know? That's pretty
>>much kept under wraps in the Catholic Church.
>
>
> That's the point, dork! It's all Kitab i Hearsay.
Derwood, once again you've confused yourself into agreeing with me.
Jerry
Brid
Jerry,
Cal related various memories of things he had heard on pilgrimmage and
followed up by talking about a published reference to the Mt
Carmel/Fatima link. Dermod confirmed that he too had been told by
Baha'is in person about the Fatima message and the Baha'i faith. Ergo,
to me, as I trust the word of both Cal and Dermod, some Baha'is are
indeed claiming this. I was careful to say some Baha'is as I did not
wish to be suggesting that all Baha'is were claiming this. I know from
my own religious background how this type of unofficial, popular myth
stuff works. As a Catholic, the whole Fatima thing was never part of
my faith, but I knew others for whom these types of Marian
apparitions, the more recent ones at Medjugorje in particular, were a
central part of their faith and worldview. I find the psychology of it
curious and my interest is a purely academic one.
BTW, the secrets of Fatima are not pretty much kept under wraps by the
RCC anymore. They are pretty much out in the open, the present Pope
having decided to publish the last of them and the others having been
available for many years in various works by the surviving visionary.
The fact is Jerry, that there is an appetite for popular myth among
Baha'is, just as there is among Catholics and others. You aren't so
different from the rest of us after all. If you want to see a case
study, published in one of your own journals on how this sort of
unofficial urban myth stuff operated amongst Baha'is, then check out
the reference below.
Unofficial Information and Rumour in the Baha'i Community: the case of
"The tree they couldn't kill" BSR, Vol 8 (1998)
http://bahai-library.org/bsr/bsr08/823_piff_rumour.htm
As the abstract says 'the author draws attention to the usefulness of
unofficial information in offering insight into the world view and
social dynamics of religious groups'. But don't worry, his concluding
paragraph should be very encouraging for a zealous believer like
yourself.
Brid
Brid
> The American writer David Guterson has a new novel out about the topic of a
> Marian apparition.
>
> Cheers, Randy
>
Thanks, Randy. I checked it out at Amazon, where the review says
'David Guterson's Our Lady of the Forest navigates between the
mystical and the cynical in its slowly paced telling of a Marian
encounter in North Fork, Washington'.
Anything that navigates between the mystical and the cynical sounds
right up my street :-)
Thanks for the tip.
Brid
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
"Jerry Joplin" <Je...@JerryJoplinNoSchpamm.com> wrote in message
Au contriare, Janis - that's your specialty! Of course if you're unable to
comprehend then do ask - I might be able to enlighten you. ... although I
hae ma doutes about that, because of the bloody great blinkers over your
eyes.
>
> Jerry
>
Jerry Joplin
Cal, its somewhat of a difficult search because the Bab's wife was also
named Fatima. This search produces 233 hits:
fatima pope Baha'i OR Bahai OR Baha'u'llah
This one seems to be the closest:
http://ca.geocities.com/john9seguin/revp12.htm
The real fatima conspiracy theory sites are:
http://www.fatima.org/
http://www.michaelhesemann.com/
But I don't see anything there about the faith.
Jerry
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
> >That old Fatima story, for example, shows how much effort is put into
> >finding something that will interest Fenians and that the community is so
> >wildy anxious to entrap them that they'll immerse themseves in Catholic
> >cultic tought and rearrange it, however ineptly, to suit their own
agenda.
>
> Dear Brid,
Actually, 'twas me that wrte that and I haven't had the operation!
> You can see it that way if you want. Historically, Christianity often
tried to
> convert people by debunking their ancestreal religion. The Baha'is, with
their
> assumption of the oneness of religion, seek to build bridges. As I wrote
in my
> article on the conversion of religious minorities to the Baha'i Faith in
Iran,
The inability of the BF to reach a Catholic audience in Northern Ireland is
something that is fairly well documented and of concern tio the AO. Bahais
of Catholic extraction are as rare as hen's teeth. One reason, I think, is
the absence of a liturgy and the fact that Bahai gatherings of the prayerful
variety are disgustingly low-church for one reared to the theatre inherent
in Catholicism, ill conceived and presented varieties of the Fatima secret
notwithstanding.
I could go on but I'd fear the BIGS here in Norn Iren might pinch me ideas
and use them and the last pay cheque bounced.
Jerry Joplin
>
> Au contriare, Janis - that's your specialty! Of course if you're unable to
> comprehend then do ask - I might be able to enlighten you. ... although I
> hae ma doutes about that, because of the bloody great blinkers over your
> eyes.
Derwood, sure why don't you enlighten me on this question. Didn't
Galileo live about 375 years *before* the Catechism paragraph on
reconciling science and religion was written?
Jerry
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
"Jerry Joplin" <Je...@JerryJoplinNoSchpamm.com> wrote in message
> Dermod Ryder wrote:
> > I have just told you that two BIGS related that tale to me. It is
generally
> > taken for granted here that posters do not lie when they relate tales,
> > events or happenings. Obviously that did not penetrate your dormant
organ.
> > A spell in Father Jack's underpants hamper is far too good for the likes
of
> > you.
>
> Derwood, its generally taken for granted here that nothing you say is
> noteworthy. Anyway, I don't like your rules, so I'm not following them.
Not my rules - they're generally accepted by everybody. It is considered
basd manners to suggest that anybody is deliberately relating false
information unless a poster can with confidence and proof assert otherwise.
> > You want documentation?
> >
> > Fine! Try "Unofficial Bahai Lore" by David Piff - at page 334 C3b-003a
> > Variant; C3b-003b "The pope (sic) who read the secret [of Fatima] burst
into
> > tears on reading that Christ would return in the letters 'ba' and 'ha'"
> >
> > And just below that:-
> >
> > C3b-004 Hand of the Cause Ugo Giachery located Bahaullah's Tablet to the
> > Pope in the Vatican Archives but could not remove it. (He tried).
>
> And when were these on TRB?
Just now. Do you wish to challenge the veracity of these quotations?
> >>How would we know? That's pretty
> >>much kept under wraps in the Catholic Church.
> >
> >
> > That's the point, dork! It's all Kitab i Hearsay.
>
> Derwood, once again you've confused yourself into agreeing with me.
Not at all Janis - once again your ignorance has shone through.
>
> Jerry
>
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
> > far. Can you show me where "some Baha'is" clamed the secrets of Fatima
> > contain references to their founder? How would we know? That's pretty
> > much kept under wraps in the Catholic Church. Thus far, Cal said he
> > read something, somewhere, that the BVM said the first two letters of
> > name of Christ returned was B-A. Then I noted the cloak of Mt Carmel
> > may have different interpretations. How did you draw your conclusion
> > that "we have some Baha'is claiming" anything, or did you just make that
> > part up?
> >
> > Jerry
>
> Baha'is, just as there is among Catholics and others. You aren't so
> different from the rest of us after all. If you want to see a case
> study, published in one of your own journals on how this sort of
> unofficial urban myth stuff operated amongst Baha'is, then check out
> the reference below.
>
> Unofficial Information and Rumour in the Baha'i Community: the case of
> "The tree they couldn't kill" BSR, Vol 8 (1998)
> http://bahai-library.org/bsr/bsr08/823_piff_rumour.htm
Oh Golly Gosh! This article appears to be by the same chap who wrote the
book from which I quoted abstracts in an earlier post.
Jerry Joplin
> Unofficial Information and Rumour in the Baha'i Community: the case of
> "The tree they couldn't kill" BSR, Vol 8 (1998)
> http://bahai-library.org/bsr/bsr08/823_piff_rumour.htm
>
> As the abstract says 'the author draws attention to the usefulness of
> unofficial information in offering insight into the world view and
> social dynamics of religious groups'. But don't worry, his concluding
> paragraph should be very encouraging for a zealous believer like
> yourself.
Brid, thanks for the very interesting link :-) This part of the abstract
is particularly scary:
Abstract: Using discussion threads from Bahá'í Internet groups regarding...
Anyway, I agree there's an apetite for this type of thing within the
faith, but the apetite is also present in the Catholic faith
(especially), and Protestants (rapture mania), and I'm not sure about
the Orthodox Church, but I'm sure its there.
Jerry
Jerry Joplin
> Not my rules - they're generally accepted by everybody. It is considered
> basd manners to suggest that anybody is deliberately relating false
> information unless a poster can with confidence and proof assert otherwise.
Derwood dear, then what's your excuse?
Jerry
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
"Jerry Joplin" <Je...@JerryJoplinNoSchpamm.com> wrote in message
Geez Janis, you were never a well informed Fenian if you don't know that
this version of the Catechism has been much revised and represents in this
and other ways, a reversal of traditional Catholic doctrine. In the days of
Galileo and Pius X it was almost an article of faith that faith over-ruled
science if there was an apparent conflict. I suggest you get a hold of the
"Syllabus of Errors" and "Lamentabili" for your edification and an
inculcation of the strictures on Modernism, of which this proposition is an
intrinsic part.
But then again I suppose this is yet another example of my having
"absolutely no idea what [I'm] talking about." And before answering that,
do remember that Father Jack changed his underpants but once a year after
his annual bath and that the hamper contained the produce of his entire
life.
>
> Jerry
>
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
"Jerry Joplin" <Je...@JerryJoplinNoSchpamm.com> wrote in message
Are you calling me a liar?
>
> Jerry
>
Randy Burns
Randy
--
"Dermod Ryder" <grim_reaper MO...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:boc8p9$b8k$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
>
> "Jerry Joplin" <Je...@JerryJoplinNoSchpamm.com> wrote in message
>
Paul Hammond
Cal said:
"It was around the same time as there was all that talk about the Letters
of Fatima and the last one telling the Pope that the first two letters
of the name of Christ returned was B-A. I heard that one from Phil."
Cal is a Baha'i, so that's one Baha'i that said it.
Cal refers to this story doing the rounds amongst Baha'is at
the same time as a story about someone reading Baha'u'llah's
letter to the Pope in the Vatican library, and becoming a
Baha'i on the spot.
I know you've only been a Baha'i for a short while, but you
*must* have heard some similar pep-talk stories doing the
rounds yourself - they are part of Baha'i folklore, aren't
they?
Brid characterises what she has learned as "some Baha'is
claim that letters of Fatima contain references to their
founder". More than an interesting characterisation, it is
a true characterisation of what has been said here.
Brid is usually in command of her facts, and doesn't waste
her time like you do with Schaut-lite attempts to parse
sentences into their constituent parts of speech.
Do try to see the wood for the trees sometime, won't you?
Paul
Paul Hammond
Mindreading still, Janis?
Jerry Joplin
> Geez Janis, you were never a well informed Fenian if you don't know that
> this version of the Catechism has been much revised and represents in this
> and other ways, a reversal of traditional Catholic doctrine. In the days of
> Galileo and Pius X it was almost an article of faith that faith over-ruled
> science if there was an apparent conflict. I suggest you get a hold of the
> "Syllabus of Errors" and "Lamentabili" for your edification and an
> inculcation of the strictures on Modernism, of which this proposition is an
> intrinsic part.
Derwood, even if you consider "much revision" in the current version of
the Catechism, you still have this tiny problem of a 375 year gap
between Galileo and its writing/revising.
Jerry
Jerry Joplin
>
> Are you calling me a liar?
Derwood, why don't you tell me?
Jerry
Steve Marshall
>> >Wow! A Rogering psychotherapist!
>>
>> Can you elaborate on that?
>
Did you come to me because you are not going to?
http://www.manifestation.com/neurotoys/eliza.php3
Randy Burns
Randy
--
"Jerry Joplin" <Je...@JerryJoplinNoSchpamm.com> wrote in message
news:vqjg419...@corp.supernews.com...
Susan Maneck
>the absence of a liturgy and the fact that Bahai gatherings of the prayerful
>variety are disgustingly low-church for one reared to the theatre inherent
>in Catholicism
I suspect that's true. I was raised Presbyterian and therefore had no use for
ritual to begin with. Now I have an academic appreciation for it.
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st
Brid
>
> Brid, thanks for the very interesting link :-)
Yes, it is interesting and it is by the same person Dermod referred
to. Piff's work cropped up once before on TRB when I raised the
subject of Cher supposedly having been claimed as a Baha'i at one
time.
> This part of the abstract is particularly scary:
>
> Abstract: Using discussion threads from Bahá'í Internet groups regarding...
>
Well Jerry, I'm not a professional in the field of religious studies
or anything but it seems to me that one can gain a very valuable
insight into the complexities of any religion's followers by looking
at discussion threads from Internet groups. You see, you and I are
both recent converts to faiths we did not grow up in and take our
respective new paths very seriously indeed. My spiritual father has
warned me, however, to keep a lid on the old convert zeal and to
prepare myself for disappointment when I encounter 'real' believers
online. For I will find something less than the great, pure and
idealistic vision of the Church that every convert has. And indeed I
have seen the negative side of my new found faith writ large online -
ethnic rivalries and petty jealousies, fanaticism which is in danger
of obscuring the Gospel, recent converts who fancy themselves holier
and more learned than all the Desert Fathers and Mothers put together.
I think Alma is trying to warn you of a similar danger and I think,
speaking as one convert to another, you would do well to heed her.
> Anyway, I agree there's an apetite for this type of thing within the
> faith,
At last! Baha'is are as human as those who follow earlier revelations
and their faith, despite its official image, also has a lively
unofficial culture of pious legends. The UHJ itself, for example, has
admitted that there is no evidence for the story that Queen Victoria
gave the response to Baha'u'llah's letter that popular Baha'i writers
claim, but the story continues to be passed on regardless.
>but the apetite is also present in the Catholic faith
> (especially), and Protestants (rapture mania),
Yes, but I wasn't ever seeking to deny that. In Catholicism it takes a
particular form in the shape of apparitions of the BVM. Our Protestant
friends seem to go straight to the Book of the Apocalypse, I remember
when the nuclear disaster happened at Chernobyl that some born-agains
claimed the word Chernobyl meant the same as some significant word
from the Book of Revelation (was it something like Wormwood?). I think
from there it was linked to Armageddon and all that.
> and I'm not sure about the Orthodox Church, but I'm sure its there.
>
> Jerry
Jerry, I'm not sure about the Orthodox Church myself some times... :-)
We don't go in for Marian apparitions a la Fatima, usually the BVM is
very strong on obeying the Pope and adhering to certain Latin
doctrines, both of which would create a big chill factor for the
Orthodox. There was, however, a Marian apparition at a Coptic church
in Zeitoun, Cairo at the end of the 1960s which was unusual because it
was reported to have been witnessed by Muslims as well as Christians.
The phenomenon was even photographed and you can see a whole gallery
of images at http://www.zeitun-eg.org/ if you're so minded.
It's been a while since I read anything about Zeitoun and I'm not sure
if verbal messages/secrets were part of it.
The closest I've come to a European Orthodox appetite for the
prophetic and apocalyptic was when a Greek fundie posted up a series
of prophecies reputedly made in Constantinople in the middle ages. I
found them utterly bizarre and highly entertaining, maybe I should see
if I can dig them out in case they too contain any references to the
Baha'i faith! The Greek fundie was most annoyed with me and I had to
make amends by posting the Irish medieval prophecies of St Malachy
which seem to say that the Papacy is in its final days. That cheered
him up no end.
Brid
Brid
> >> You seemed pretty fascinated by it yourself.
> >
> >We former Fenians love it but then, Catholicism makes no claims about
> >reconciling science and religion..
>
> I was thinking more of her fascination with hearsay, not so much prophecy.
> http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
> Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
> http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st
Yes, I have to confess that I am still fascinated by the story of the
woman who fell weeping into Dr Ghadirian's arms. It must be the
academic thrill of recognizing the archetypes of the penitent woman
and the physician or something.
Paul Hammond
But, that's what Brid said in the first place - that she is
interested in these storys of appearances of the Virigin Mary,
and fascinated to note that some Baha'is have tried to
co-opt them into predictions of Baha'u'llah and endorsements
of the Baha'i Faith.
Her conclusion in the first place was that the Baha'is are
not so different and rational as they like to make out - because
the same dynamics that lead Catholics to invest their faith
in Mary storys also lead Baha'is to recount stories of the
Bab's indestructable Orange Tree, etc.
Baha'is are just like every other religion is what Brid said
in the first place that you wanted to take issue with.
It seems like you have argued yourself round a circle here.
Paul