Kelly was a baha'i
Freethought110
the Blair doctored the Iraqi WMD evidence. The article is one long
propaganda plug for baha'ism.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/news/page.cfm?objectid=13193809&method=full&si\
teid=89488
KELLY SOUGHT SOLACE IN BAHA'I FAITH
Jul 19 2003
DR Kelly was one of a growing number of people who are members of the
Baha'i faith.
The religion was founded 150 years ago in Iran but its followers there
are
persecuted by the Moslem leaders.
After Iran's 1979 Islamic revolution, Baha'i teachers were sacked and
followers barred from education.
The religion has five million members in 235 countries and has been
established in Britain for more than a century.
Based on the teachings of 19th-century Arab prophet Baha'ullah, it has
no
clergy and is run by elected bodies at local, national and
international
levels.
Devotees believe Baha'ullah is the most recent in the line of
messengers
from God stretching back to Mohammad, Christ, Moses and Krishna.
The religion's main message is that humanity is a single race and "the
day
has come for its unification in one global society".
It also promotes an end to prejudice, equality of the sexes and
education
for all. Its administrative centre is the Universal House of Justice
in
Haifa, Israel, formed in 1963.
Varqa
Dear Baha'i friends
We can confirm that Dr David Kelly, whose death was confirmed by the police
on Saturday afternoon was a registered Baha'i. He had become a Baha'i in New
York in 1999 and had been a member of the Vale of White Horse community in
Oxfordshire before the Local Assembly boundary changes left him as an
isolated believer.
He quite regularly attended Baha'i events in Oxfordshire but his membership
of the Faith was not widely known outside the county.
We are aware that quite a number of the friends have been approached by
journalists about Dr Kelly. We would ask that any further approaches by the
media should be referred to the National Secretary or to Carmel Momen, our
Public Information Officer in the Office of Public Information on 020-7590
8785.
Please do NOT give the Secretary's contact details to journalists but obtain
their telephone number and say that the Secretary will call them back. Then
please telephone the National Office with these details and ask that they be
passed to the National Secretary urgently.
We feel sure you will appreciate the sensitivity of all of this.
Needless to say, we extend our deepest sympathies to his his wife and
daughters. It should be noted that they are not Baha'is.
With loving Baha'i greetings
National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the UK
Barney Leith, Secretary
errol9
at freetho...@yahoo.com wrote on 20/7/03 11:53 pm:
> This is the guy who committed suicide in the UK over allegations that
> the Blair doctored the Iraqi WMD evidence. The article is one long
> propaganda plug for baha'ism.
I doubt it Nima, the Bahai AO have no control over such journalism. A
friendly reporter would not have used words like "Arab prophet Baha'ullah"
Many Bahai's especially Iranians will feel totally insulted by the use of
the word "Arab"
The wording below in another article "like he went out of his way to get to
know the Iraqis" can have dual implications.
"Dr Kelly had become a follower of the Baha'i faith, which originated in
Persia. Fellow inspectors said he went out of his way to get to know the
Iraqis. http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/story.jsp?story=425928
Rumours are already going around Kelly never committed suicide. This is
only starting, the very reason Varsa has answered your post and included the
letter from Barney Leith, probably sent to all UK members means the UK NSA,
and the UHJ are both very worried about how all this will effect the image
of the Bahai Faith world wide. Personally if you ask me the journalists in
support of the British Goverment will be out to blacken this guy's name as
much as they can, to save their own bacon............Errol
The lonely end of a 'loving, private, dignified man'
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/story.jsp?story=425929
Four years ago, when Dr Kelly was working for the UN in New York, he became
a follower of the Bahai faith. "He was modest, self effacing, intelligent
and honourable in every way," said Susie Howard, a member of the Abingdon
Bahai group to which Dr Kelly belonged. "We are devastated... People are
very surprised. He was a private man. When one thinks of what he endured -
he led the first weapons inspection team to Iraq - he was very emotionally
together, I think."
http://www.femail.co.uk/pages/standard/article.html?in_page_id=25&in_article
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/focus/story/0,6903,1001786,00.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-750896,00.html
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=425934
> http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/news/page.cfm?objectid=13193809&method=full&
Freethought110
> Personally if you ask me the journalists in
> support of the British Goverment will be out to blacken this guy's name as
> much as they can, to save their own bacon............Errol
Really? In that case they should all be directed over to Fred's
website (& links) for some meaty ammunition:
errol9
at freetho...@yahoo.com wrote on 21/7/03 5:15 am:
> errol9 <err...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<BB410EBA.2D159%
>
>> Personally if you ask me the journalists in
>> support of the British Goverment will be out to blacken this guy's name as
>> much as they can, to save their own bacon............Errol
>
> Really? In that case they should all be directed over to Fred's
> website (& links) for some meaty ammunition:
We will see if he has a Baha"i Burial with all the press there.
Yesterday it was reported on the TV the Catholic Archbishop of Birmingham
gave a memorial service at Litchfield for him, so his family could be
Catholics and he might get a Catholic funeral, we will have to wait and see.
This guy on ARB has already queried about suicide and the Bahai view on it.
He also clarified my statement that about rumours Kelly was bumped off by
the dirty tricks brigade. It also looks like Barnabas Leith, secretary of
the UK NSA has already given information out to the press about Bahai views
on suicide. I dont know which articles as the newspapers have four or five
in every one of them. Dan Jordan's murder in the US is nothing on this guy.
I bet they UHJ in Haifa wished he was never converted 4 or 5 years ago What
suprises me is all the attention the press has given to him being a Baha'i
Seems very very fishy......................Errol
in article 46PEIiADM1G$Ew...@borve.demon.co.uk, banana at
banana@REMOVE_THIS.borve.demon.co.uk wrote on 21/7/03 2:42 am:
> What does Baha'i religious thought say about suicide?
>
> I ask because David Kelly the UK government scientist who was found dead
> on Friday, and whom many believe to have been murdered, was a Baha'i by
> religion, and there have been various reports in the press regarding the
> Baha'i view(s) of suicide.
>
> The 'Sunday Mirror' for example has said that
>
>> the Bahai faith which does not regard suicide as a sin - but excuses it
>> as a release from "sorrows and afflictions" when under terrible
>> pressure
>
> whereas the 'Guardian' has said that
>
>> Barnabas Leith, secretary of the national assembly of the Baha'is in
>> the UK, said the religion condemned suicide but added that God was
>> "merciful" to those who had suffered.
>
>> Mr Leith said: "The true position is that the Baha'i teachings strongly
>> condemn suicide.
>
>> Baha'is believe that the soul of the individual comes ever closer to
>> God in the life after death. Those who take their own lives risk
>> damaging their soul in the life hereafter.
>
>> "But this does not mean they cease to be Baha'is. And Baha'is believe
>> that God is always merciful to those who have suffered in this life.
>
>> "Baha'is throughout the world are praying for the progress of David
>> Kelly's soul."
>
> and the 'Scotsman' newspaper has said that
>
>> [the Baha'i faith] rejects suicide in any circumstances
>
> David Kelly had a long record in the biological and chemical weapons
> industry - as head of microbiology at the UK's Porton Down facility, one
> of the most important biological and chemical weapons facilities in the
> world - and until his death was willingly working for the western
> warfare State. Therefore he obviously washed his hands in the blood of
> the disadvantaged, and was clearly not a pacifist. I tend to think his
> involvement in the Baha'i religion was probably to do with making
> contacts useful for British intelligence, but I would be interested to
> read info posted by practising Baha'i believers regarding the acccuracy
> or otherwise of what has been written (e.g. in the above-mentioned
> newspapers) about the Baha'i view of suicide.
A MAN WHOSE BRAIN COULD BOIL WATER
http://www.mirror.co.uk/
He practised the Baha'i religion, founded in Iran and which teaches that
humanity is a single race. http://www.mirror.co.uk/
Monsef
London? Was Kelly a Bahai "mole" - if there is such a thing?
what is an "isolated believer"?
> We are aware that quite a number of the friends have been approached by
> journalists about Dr Kelly.
> We would ask that any further approaches by the
> media should be referred to the National Secretary
So the UHJ edicts that no Bahai is allowed to talk to the media? Do
the Bahais submit their freedoms just as simply as this to their
authorities? What kind of religion is that that you need permission
to talk?
"Varqa" <varqa...@address.com> wrote in message news:<LrHSa.24626$Ma.52...@news1.telusplanet.net>...
errol9
at freetho...@yahoo.com wrote on 21/7/03 5:15 am:
> errol9 <err...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<BB410EBA.2D159%
>
>> Personally if you ask me the journalists in
>> support of the British Goverment will be out to blacken this guy's name as
>> much as they can, to save their own bacon............Errol
>
> Really? In that case they should all be directed over to Fred's
> website (& links) for some meaty ammunition:
The (anti Bush-Blair) American Patriot Friends Network have put the roumers
he was murdered on this website, plus numerous articles
Doctor who exposed Blair found murdered
Paul Hammond
Dan Jordan's murder in the US is nothing on this guy.
> I bet they UHJ in Haifa wished he was never converted 4 or 5 years ago What
> suprises me is all the attention the press has given to him being a Baha'i
> Seems very very fishy......................Errol
>
>
All what press attention?
Out of all those articles talking about Dr Kelly's death, only
one of them in the Independent even mentioned his faith. The
Observer one talked about him "going to the pub" and "playing
for the pub cribbage team", which I thought was odd for a
Baha'i, but then mentioned that he "wasn't much of a drinker,
preferring to have a glass of mineral water while others
drank pints" - which is rather a round about way of referring
to his membership of a faith which forbids alcohol.
If anything, my overriding impression of the press coverage
was that everyone thought his being a Baha'i was such an
unimportant fact to these journalists, in amongst all the
details of the row between the BBC and Alistair Campbell,
and whether the government had fingered him for a fall
guy, that it barely got mentioned.
It took the Daily Record (a newspaper only commonly read
in Scotland) before there was any article explaining
what the Baha'i Faith is about.
Errol, you sound like one of those old-time Baha'i
fundamentalists, making an enormous fuss any time
someone even remotely famous (like Cathy Freeman)
turns out to be a Baha'i.
As to "something fishy", you sound like my dad, who
has been heard muttering darkly about "Iraqi
extremists" in recent days. We'd just laugh at him
if it wasn't so tragic that he was so credulous.
Paul
errol9
at freetho...@yahoo.com wrote on 21/7/03 5:15 am:
Nima,
Here are views from abroad what they think happened to Kelly. I think the
Russian one wins top prize. How to bump informers off KGB book page 22.
No 1) Chucking them off a high bridge over the sea, or off the top of a high
building, seen as suicide.
No 2) Cementing them in the foundations of new buildings. (Only recommended
for wanting to hide the body for 100 years).
N0 3) Taking them to a local wood near their home after having them doped
with an overdose of prescribed anti-depressant tablets, then cut one wrist
and informer bleeds to death painlessly, and it looks like suicide.
No 3) Is the most common used by old KGB and special services in Russia
today.
Errol
July 21, 2003
The view from abroad
The Times
Russia: łWhat is the point of David Kelly committing suicide? He could have
left a note, but he didnąt.
łAnd it is suspicious where it happened ‹ in a wood. In Russia the Special
Services always take people into the woods if they want to get rid of them.˛
Yan Foss, 31, a television presenter
Italy: łIt seems that this man was psychologically fragile . . . This was a
suicide linked to depression. In a case like this you canąt attribute
blame.˛
Domenico Palmerino, a lawyer in Rome.
łIf you ask me they bumped him off.˛
Filippo Natale, a civil servant
Canada: łIf it was in the US, Iąd be more questioning about whether it was a
suicide. I think they hounded him so badly and questioned his
professionalism that it drove him to do it. They questioned his integrity.˛
Tamara Taylor, 34, a purchasing agent
łI understand why he would commit suicide, but with the way politics is in
the world today, I donąt believe that itąs too far-fetched to think that he
might have been taken out by some antagonistic, elitist power.˛
Mary F. Hawkins, a Professor of English and author of two books on health
***** Bahai Faith *****
----- Original Message -----
From: bahaice...@fglaysher.com
To: t.ham...@dailyrecord.co.uk
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 9:03 AM
Subject: Bahai' Faith & Censorship
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/news/page.cfm?objectid=13193809&method=ful
l&si\
teid=89488
KELLY SOUGHT SOLACE IN BAHA'I FAITH
Jul 19 2003
DR Kelly was one of a growing number of people who are members of the
Baha'i faith.
----------
In response to your article about Dr. Kelly," I
believe Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan's Department
of History, has a website of extensive and disturbing documentation
that anyone interested in the Baha'i Faith should be aware of, especially
his article "Fundamentalism in the Contemporary U.S. Baha'i Community,"
Religious Studies Review, Vol. 43, no. 3 (March, 2002):195-217:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/2002/fundbhfn.htm
In his book Modernity and the Millennium, published by Columbia University
Press in 1998, Professor Cole observes the Baha'i administration has
increasingly come under the control of fundamentalists, "stressing
scriptural literalism . . . theocracy, censorship, intellectual intolerance,
and denying key democratic values (196)."
For numerous other views,
I also recommend the over 50 megabytes of documentation
on my own website, The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom
of Conscience: http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/
Frederick Glaysher
The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/
See too Karen Bacquet, "Enemies Within: Conflict and Control in the
Baha'i Community." Published in American Family Foundation's
Cultic Studies Journal, Volume 18, pp.109-140:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/bigquestions/enemies.html
Paul Hammond
> WOW! What are the implications of this on the current events in
> London? Was Kelly a Bahai "mole" - if there is such a thing?
>
> what is an "isolated believer"?
>
> > We are aware that quite a number of the friends have been approached by
> > journalists about Dr Kelly.
> > We would ask that any further approaches by the
> > media should be referred to the National Secretary
>
> So the UHJ edicts that no Bahai is allowed to talk to the media? Do
> the Bahais submit their freedoms just as simply as this to their
> authorities? What kind of religion is that that you need permission
> to talk?
>
It sounds to me like a sensible precaution to tell Baha'is
to direct any interested journalist that contacts them
to the people with the information, and the experience
at dealing with the press, and to avoid making life
any more difficult than it already is for Dr Kelly's
LSA.
Really, if someone *you* knew was at the centre of the
biggest story of the year, would *you* be happy if
people were handing journalists your home telephone
number?
Considering that the press attention this essentially
private man received was clearly a contributing factor
to his decision to escape from his problems by taking
his own life, I should think that it would be a very
sensible thing to try to lessen any such pressures
on other Baha'is in Oxfordshire. Don't you think so?
Paul
Cal E. Rollins
Are there any sanctions against a Baha'i having a non-Baha'i burial?
Probably something has been thought of to do to him. Do you think he'll
be embalmed or cremated? If so, shouldn't the House of Justice protest?
So far, the word just is circulating with the media that Kelly was a
member of "an Arab religious sect." I suspect Persians will yell about
that. So will Mahdi.
It should be interesting when people in England and America start
reading Susan's and others' yakking about how the Universal House of
Justice is planning to take over the Governments of the World in a New
World Order that is not the Bush's. Maybe this is the kind of stuff
that will preciptate the Governments of the World arising against us and
causing us to moan and groan. Of course, it's possible that
'Abdu'l-Baha was talking about the World's moaning and groaning because
of our power to over-come the Governments as we establish, over time,
the World Theocracy?
Susan, what is your take on this? The little birdie told me.... --Cal
errol9
> All what press attention?
>
> Out of all those articles talking about Dr Kelly's death, only
> one of them in the Independent even mentioned his faith.
Police enquiries continue as villagers pray for scientist
Rebecca Allison Monday July 21, 2003 The Guardian
Intolerable' last days of doctor who converted to pacifism
Leaders of the Baha'i religion followed by Dr Kelly said they were praying for his soul and for solace for his family. Barnabas Leith, secretary of the national assembly of the Baha'is in the UK, said the religion condemned suicide but added that God was "merciful" to those who had suffered. Dr Kelly converted to the pacifist faith four years ago while in the US and regularly attended gatherings at his local centre in Abingdon, Oxfordshire. Mr Leith said: "The true position is that the Baha'i teachings strongly condemn suicide. Baha'is believe that the soul of the individual comes ever closer to God in the life after death. Those who take their own lives risk damaging their soul in the life hereafter. "But this does not mean they cease to be Baha'is. And Baha'is believe that God is always merciful to those who have suffered in this life. Baha'is throughout the world are praying for the progress of David Kelly's soul."Mr Leith added that Baha'is did not have a regular weekly meeting, but members would be praying for Dr Kelly, his wife and his daughters. Dr Kelly is one of 6000 Baha'is in the UK and five million worldwide. The religion, founded in Iran around 160 years ago, preaches tolerance and unity.
http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/archive/21-7-19103-0-24-54.html
PANIC OVER DOCTOR'S 'KILLER FACT'
Sunday Mirror, UK - 20 Jul 2003
... The scientist was a member of the Bahai faith which does not regard suicide as a
sin - but excuses it as a release from "sorrows and afflictions" when under ...
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&edition=usa&q=bahai+afflictions
KELLY SLASHED WRIST
Dr Kelly, a member of the Baha'i Church, a liberal off-shoot of Islam, http://www.people.co.uk/homepage/news/page.cfm?objectid=13197177&method=thepeople_full&siteid=79490
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/content_objectid=13193809_method=full_siteid=89488_headline=-KELLY-SOUGHT-SOLACE-IN-BAHA-I-FAITH-name_page.html
Caught in the middle of Labour's row with the BBC
A religious man, he was a practising member of the Baha¹i faith, and a former treasurer of the Abingdon Spiritual Assembly in Oxfordshire. http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/uk.cfm?id=782152003
Cal E. Rollins
Do you now if Dr. Kelly sought counsel, comfort, and support from his
NSA, since he was an isolated believer? Would he have gone to his
former LSA for advice? Maybe that LSA has information that would lead
to the criminal investigation? Is LSA information privileged like one's
lawyer or priest? --Cal
Cal E. Rollins
This whole story just broke in the US yesterday. Give it time. And
besides we need the publicity to arouse interest and bring in the
troops. Allah works in mysterious ways. --Cal
Cal E. Rollins
Since when could Baha'is be involved in governmental affairs at present?
I thought such people had to resign such activities before being allowed
to be Baha'is. --Cal
errol9
Rollins at crol...@webtv.net wrote on 21/7/03 1:43 pm:
The guy was a civil servant, not a member of a political party....Errol
errol9
Cal, this is what could happen. The publicity the Baha'is are getting world
wide may attract many seekers. However it could go the exact opposite way.
We will have to wait and see............Errol
>
Susan Maneck
>
>what is an "isolated believer"?
An isolated believer means he lives in a locality where no other Baha'is
reside.
warmest, Susan
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st
errol9
He only became an isolated believer recently due to the AO boundary changes.
Before that he was treasurer of an LSA Now there are numerous Baha'is all
left in groups of two's and threes ( they are called clusters). The object
is for these small clusters to seek new members and form a new 9 member LSA.
Errol
Randy Burns
Randy
--
Cal E. Rollins <crol...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:8726-3F1...@storefull-2332.public.lawson.webtv.net...
QisQos
> PANIC OVER DOCTOR'S 'KILLER FACT'
> Sunday Mirror, UK - 20 Jul 2003
> ... The scientist was a member of the Bahai faith which does not regard
> suicide as a
> sin - but excuses it as a release from "sorrows and afflictions" when under
> ...
Hmm, Bahais are soft on suicide, euthanasia and abortion. It looks
like the Bahais have more than a small debt to Manichean ideology and
their heretical offshoots the Albigensians and the Bogomils.
Of course all of this is part of the "Culture of Death" that pervades
western culture with its emphasis on "idividualism" and the "risghts"
of individuals, all the while denying the rights of God, the rights of
the family and the rights of society over the individual.
Female reproductive "rights' where in utero infanticide is practised
as a central fact of feminism, of course being backed up by cadres of
lesbian feminist wiccan abortionists who hate anything related to men,
families and children...
Euthanasia where the inconcenient and incapable of earning taxable
wages are "put to sleep" like stray dogs...
Suicide, wimping out in the face of ill fame or one's personal
failings...
All of these culture of death predicated upon the belief that life is
only worth living when it is convenient, pleasurable and
self-actualizing.
nevertheless this fellow's odd involvement in tow New World Order
activities, the Bahai Faith, and Tony Blair's falsified justification
for invading babylon suggest that the triumphalistic and totalitarian
One World Government has appeal on a broad basis among Bahais.
Of course association is not proof of complicity, but does suggest
that bahais bear some scrutiny regarding their seeming loyalties to
the anti-Christian, Neo-Conservative agenda of global hegemony.
QisQos
Cal E. Rollins
How are we going to deal with the Kelly death if it turns out to be
murder and not suicide? What is being said about the murder scenario or
is that just a bit of salacious gossip or government bashing? --Cal
***** Bahai Faith *****
of the University of Michigan's Department of History, has a website of
extensive and disturbing documentation that anyone interested in the
Baha'i Faith should be aware of, especially his article
"Fundamentalism in the Contemporary U.S. Baha'i Community,"
Religious Studies Review, Vol. 43, no. 3 (March, 2002):195-217:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/2002/fundbhfn.htm
In his book Modernity and the Millennium, published by Columbia University
Press in 1998, Professor Cole observes the Baha'i administration has
increasingly come under the control of fundamentalists, "stressing
scriptural literalism . . . theocracy, censorship, intellectual intolerance,
and denying key democratic values (196)."
See too Karen Bacquet, "Enemies Within: Conflict and Control in the
Baha'i Community." Published in American Family Foundation's
Cultic Studies Journal, Volume 18, pp.109-140:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/bigquestions/enemies.html
For numerous other views,
I also recommend the over 50 megabytes of documentation
on my own website, The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom
of Conscience: http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/
Frederick Glaysher
The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/
Kelly family come to terms with suicide
http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/politics.cfm?id=788752003
CRAIG BROWN
THE acknowledgement that Dr David Kelly was the BBC mole and Andrew
Gilligan's claim that he did not misquote or misrepresent his words leaves
awkward questions for the weapons expert's grieving family.
His wife, Janice, and three daughters were yesterday being comforted
at a service at Southmoor Methodist Church in Oxfordshire, close to the
Kelly family home.
The awkward questions may wait, but in time they will be asked. If Dr
Kelly was the source, and was not misrepresented, then it is possible that
he may have held back some information when he appeared before the foreign
affairs select committee. Did he tell Mr Gilligan too much, then regret it?
Did he mention Alastair Campbell or not? Did his words, even if not used
directly, lead Mr Gilligan to conclude he was being told the dossier was
"sexed up"?
A weapons expert educated at Oxford, Dr Kelly was a religious man who
followed the Baha'i faith, which rejects suicide in any circumstances.
Yesterday, Barnabas Leith, the secretary of the national assembly of the
Baha'is in the UK, said the religion condemned suicide but that God was
"merciful" to those who had suffered.
Dr Kelly, who took painkillers and slashed his left wrist at a
beauty-spot close to his home in Southmoor on Friday after telling his
family he was going for a walk, converted to the pacifist faith - which has
6,000 adherents in the UK - four years ago while in the US. He regularly
attended local gatherings in Abingdon, Oxfordshire.
Mr Leith said: "The true position is that the Baha'i teachings
strongly condemn suicide. Baha'is believe that the soul of the individual
comes ever closer to God in the life after death. Those who take their own
lives risk damaging their soul in the life hereafter.
"But this does not mean they cease to be Baha'is. And Baha'is believe
that God is always merciful to those who have suffered in this life. Baha'is
throughout the world are praying for the progress of David Kelly's soul."
Mr Leith said Baha'is did not have a regular weekly meeting but
members would be praying for Dr Kelly, his wife, eldest daughter Sian, 32,
and twins Ellen and Rachel, 30.
Residents were also praying for Dr Kelly at St Mary's Church in his
neighbouring village of Longworth, near the site where his body was found on
Harrowdown Hill. The Rev Joe Cotterill, said Mrs Kelly attended occasional
services at the 13th century church.
In his sermon, Mr Cotterill asked the congregation of 18 people to
pray for the family and all those involved with the tragedy, and to ask God
to give them "courage and hope". He said after the service: "I'm not sure
people here are coming to terms with Dr Kelly's death. It's more a matter of
asking why, why, why?
"There is grief and sadness, for Janice Kelly and the children but
particularly for Mrs Kelly who is afflicted with arthritis."
He said he mentioned the Kellys in his sermon because it was the
church's duty to deal with events in the "outside world" and to help the
community. "It's part of the church's purpose to go out and express sympathy
and love for those who are suffering," he said.
Randy Burns
will the world's major governments come to trust us enough to give us all
the power?
Randy
--
Cal E. Rollins <crol...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:1375-3F1...@storefull-2331.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Susan Maneck
>> suicide as a
>> sin - but excuses it as a release from "sorrows and afflictions" when under
>> ...
>
>Hmm, Bahais are soft on suicide, euthanasia and abortion.
Excuse would not be an accurate description of the Baha'i position on suicide.
But we do not automatically assume such people are going to hell and refuse to
bury them as the Catholics do.
Varqa
During the eighties of the last century, a new town, which came to be called
'Ishqabad, sprang up and flourished in the then Russian Turkistan.
'Ishqabad[1] is close to the Iranian province of Khurasan, only a short
distance from the border. Persian Bahá'ís, harassed in their native land,
were attracted to 'Ishqabad, as were others of their countrymen. Among the
latter were men who intensely disliked the Bahá'ís, some motivated by
prejudice, some by envy. There was also no lack of hirelings and
adventurers. Their plottings led, in September 1889, to the murder of Haji
Muhammad-Riday-i-Isfahani. In broad daylight and in the middle of the bazar
he was attacked and stabbed to death by two hired assassins. The police
arrested those men, but the lives of other Bahá'ís were in jeopardy.
Accusation had been levelled against the martyred Haji Muhammad Rida that he
had spoken disparagingly of the Imams. His lamentable language, it was
claimed, had aroused the ire of men who were deeply religious. Mirza
Abu'l-Fadl happened to be in 'Ishqabad. He sought a meeting with the Russian
Governor and presented the case for the Bahá'ís: they believed in and
honoured all the Manifestations of God; their Faith enjoined upon them to
live in harmony with the followers of all religions; they too revered the
Imams[2] whom the Shí'ahs revered.
[1 'Ishqabad or Askabad is situated in the present-day Soviet Republic of
Turkmenistan.]
[2 Apostolic successors to Muhammad.]
The Czar, Alexander III, sent a military commission from St Petersburg to
conduct the trial. The two assailants were found guilty of murder and
sentenced to death. Six others, proved to have been involved in the murder
plot, were ordered to be transported to Siberia. Strenuous efforts were made
to have the verdict altered, but to no avail. However right at the foot of
the scaffold it was announced that the Bahá'ís had magnanimously interceded
for the murderers, who were banished to Siberia. Bahá'ís gained greatly in
prestige. Furthermore, the ground was now prepared for the initiation of
enterprises, such as the establishment of schools, libraries and the
construction of a House of Worship -- the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar.
(H.M. Balyuzi, Abdu'l-Baha - The Centre of
the Covenant, p. 109)
Regarding this incident Baha'u'llah wrote:
"Day and night this Wronged One yieldeth thanks and praise unto the Lord of
men, for it is witnessed that the 91 words of counsel and exhortation We
uttered have proved effective and that this people hath evinced such
character and conduct as are acceptable in Our sight. This is affirmed by
virtue of the event which hath truly cheered the eye of the world, and is
none other than the intercession of the friends with the high authorities in
favour of their enemies. Indeed one's righteous deeds testify to the truth
of one's words. We cherish the hope that men of piety may illumine the world
through the radiant light of their conduct, and We entreat the Almighty --
glorified and exalted is He -- to grant that everyone may in this Day remain
steadfast in His love and stand firm in His Cause. He is, in truth, the
Protector of those who are wholly devoted to Him and observe His precepts."
(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 90)
"Cal E. Rollins" <crol...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:1375-3F1...@storefull-2331.public.lawson.webtv.net...
errol9
paha...@onetel.net.uk wrote on 21/7/03 1:03 pm:
> errol9 <err...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:<BB413A7C.2D23B%err...@ntlworld.com>...
> Dan Jordan's murder in the US is nothing on this guy.
>> I bet they UHJ in Haifa wished he was never converted 4 or 5 years ago What
>> suprises me is all the attention the press has given to him being a Baha'i
>> Seems very very fishy......................Errol
>>
>>
>
> All what press attention?
>
> Out of all those articles talking about Dr Kelly's death, only
> one of them in the Independent even mentioned his faith.
And more proof................Errol
Police enquiries continue as villagers pray for scientist
Rebecca Allison
Monday July 21, 2003
The Guardian
Leaders of the Baha'i religion, followed by Dr Kelly, prayed for his soul
yesterday.
Barnabas Leith, secretary of the national assembly of the Baha'is in the UK,
said the religion condemned suicide but added that God was "merciful" to
those who had suffered.
Dr Kelly, 59, converted to the pacifist faith four years ago while in the US
and attended gatherings at his local centre in Abingdon, Oxfordshire.
Mr Leith said: "The true position is that the Baha'i teachings strongly
condemn suicide.
Baha'is believe that the soul of the individual comes ever closer to God in
the life after death. Those who take their own lives risk damaging their
soul in the life hereafter.
"But this does not mean they cease to be Baha'is. And Baha'is believe that
God is always merciful to those who have suffered in this life.
"Baha'is throughout the world are praying for the progress of David Kelly's
soul."
Dr Kelly was one of 6,000 Baha'is in the UK and five million worldwide. The
religion, founded in Iran around 160 years ago, preaches tolerance and
unity.
errol9
paha...@onetel.net.uk wrote on 21/7/03 1:03 pm:
news:<BB413A7C.2D23B%err...@ntlworld.com>...
>> Dan Jordan's murder in the US is nothing on this guy.
>> I bet they UHJ in Haifa wished he was never converted 4 or 5 years ago What
>> suprises me is all the attention the press has given to him being a Baha'i
>> Seems very very fishy......................Errol
>
> All what press attention?
>
> Out of all those articles talking about Dr Kelly's death, only
> one of them in the Independent even mentioned his faith.
Want more proof about press attention to the Baha'i Faith well here it
is.............Errol
THE GLASGOW HERALD
"Intolerable' last days of doctor who converted to pacifism"
Leaders of the Baha'i religion followed by Dr Kelly said they were praying
for his soul and for solace for his family.
Barnabas Leith, secretary of the national assembly of the Baha'is in the UK,
said the religion condemned suicide but added that God was "merciful" to
those who had suffered.
Dr Kelly converted to the pacifist faith four years ago while in the US and
regularly attended gatherings at his local centre in Abingdon, Oxfordshire.
Mr Leith said: "The true position is that the Baha'i teachings strongly
condemn suicide. Baha'is believe that the soul of the individual comes ever
closer to God in the life after death. Those who take their own lives risk
damaging their soul in the life hereafter.
"But this does not mean they cease to be Baha'is. And Baha'is believe that
God is always merciful to those who have suffered in this life. Baha'is
throughout the world are praying for the progress of David Kelly's soul."
Mr Leith added that Baha'is did not have a regular weekly meeting, but
members would be praying for Dr Kelly, his wife and his daughters.
Dr Kelly is one of 6000 Baha'is in the UK and five million worldwide. The
religion, founded in Iran around 160 years ago, preaches tolerance and
unity.
Villagers were also praying for Dr Kelly at St Mary's Church in his
neighbouring village of Longworth, near the site where his body was found on
Harrowdown Hill.
The Reverend Joe Cotterill, a visiting priest from Southmoor, said Mrs Kelly
attended occasional services at the 13th century church.
http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/archive/21-7-19103-0-24-54.html
errol9
paha...@onetel.net.uk wrote on 21/7/03 1:03 pm:
> errol9 <err...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:<BB413A7C.2D23B%err...@ntlworld.com>...
> Dan Jordan's murder in the US is nothing on this guy.
>> I bet they UHJ in Haifa wished he was never converted 4 or 5 years ago What
>> suprises me is all the attention the press has given to him being a Baha'i
>> Seems very very fishy......................Errol
>>
>>
>
> All what press attention?
>
> Out of all those articles talking about Dr Kelly's death, only
> one of them in the Independent even mentioned his faith.
This press attention about the baha'i Faith..........Errol
Kelly family come to terms with suicide
THE SCOTSMAN Mon 21 Jul 2003
A weapons expert educated at Oxford, Dr Kelly was a religious man who
followed the Bahaši faith, which rejects suicide in any circumstances.
Yesterday, Barnabas Leith, the secretary of the national assembly of the
Bahašis in the UK, said the religion condemned suicide but that God was
"merciful" to those who had suffered.
Dr Kelly, who took painkillers and slashed his left wrist at a beauty-spot
close to his home in Southmoor on Friday after telling his family he was
going for a walk, converted to the pacifist faith - which has 6,000
adherents in the UK - four years ago while in the US. He regularly attended
local gatherings in Abingdon, Oxfordshire.
Mr Leith said: "The true position is that the Bahaši teachings strongly
condemn suicide. Bahašis believe that the soul of the individual comes ever
closer to God in the life after death. Those who take their own lives risk
damaging their soul in the life hereafter.
"But this does not mean they cease to be Bahašis. And Bahašis believe that
God is always merciful to those who have suffered in this life. Bahašis
throughout the world are praying for the progress of David Kellyšs soul."
Mr Leith said Bahašis did not have a regular weekly meeting but members
would be praying for Dr Kelly, his wife, eldest daughter Sian, 32, and twins
Ellen and Rachel, 30.
http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/politics.cfm?id=788752003
Paul Hammond
> in article c977f97b.03072...@posting.google.com, Paul Hammond at
> paha...@onetel.net.uk wrote on 21/7/03 1:03 pm:
>
> > All what press attention?
> >
> > Out of all those articles talking about Dr Kelly's death, only
> > one of them in the Independent even mentioned his faith.
>
> Whats this then scotch mist?.....................Errol
>
yes, Errol.
These are mostly articles dated on *Monday*.
Out of the whole set of about ten articles which you
posted links to on Sunday, only one of them even mentioned
the fact that Doctor Kelly was a Baha'i, in passing, and
another one talked about him "regularaly attending a
pub" and "playing for the pub cribbage team", although
it also made a point of mentioning the fact that he
"drank mineral water" when he was in the pub, though
it didn't mentione *why* he didn't drink.
You seem to have forgotten your own evidence - you
posted 10 articles on Sunday, and only one mentioned
this fact that *you* think has got "undue press
attention".
Since Nima posted the article from the Record, obviously
all the other papers have picked up the Baha'i angle,
and now that they are writing more human interest
stories about the unfortunate doctor.
This is fairly clear to anyone who has a solid understand
of how the press works.
As usual, Error's analysis is totally off the mark.
Paul
Paul Hammond
> errol9 <err...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<BB41B0F1.2D25E%err...@ntlworld.com>...
>
> > PANIC OVER DOCTOR'S 'KILLER FACT'
> > Sunday Mirror, UK - 20 Jul 2003
> > ... The scientist was a member of the Bahai faith which does not regard
> > suicide as a
> > sin - but excuses it as a release from "sorrows and afflictions" when under
> > ...
>
> Hmm, Bahais are soft on suicide, euthanasia and abortion. It looks
> like the Bahais have more than a small debt to Manichean ideology and
> their heretical offshoots the Albigensians and the Bogomils.
>
I don't think that you have read Barney Leith's statement
properly, Qis.
Paul
Paul Hammond
He was a member of some of the UN weapons inspection teams that
went into Iraq after the first war.
He was being paid as an advisor to the MoD on Iraqi Chemical
Weapons, and that is why he was involved in putting together
the report that the Blair government relied on in arguing in
favour of war against Saddam.
The particular bone of contention is that a reporter called
Andrew Gilligan mentioned an accusation by "an MoD
source" he had interviewed suggesting that Alastair
Campbell, Tony Blair's political advisor, had been
involved in editing the report to make the threat from
Saddam seem more imminent than it actually was, in
a report on BBC Radio 4's flagship news programme,
Today.
Over the last few weeks, there has been an unseemly
row between the government and the BBC over who was
lying, etc., etc., with the rhetoric on both sides
getting ratcheted up again and again.
Eventually, the government ended up releasing
Dr Kelly's name, saying that *he* was Gilligan's
source, and he ended up giving evidence in public
to the select committee that was investigating
how the dossier got put together. That was
Tuesday last week. Kelly disappeared on
Thursday last week, and his body was found
on Friday.
In his evidence to the committee last Tuesday,
Kelly said that he *didn't* think that he was
Gilligan's main source for what he reported.
Since Kelly's suicide, Gilligan and the BBC have
admitted that he *was* their main source.
(I think that covers all the background!)
Paul
errol9
> errol9 <err...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:<BB41B79C.2D264%err...@ntlworld.com>...
>> in article 8726-3F1...@storefull-2332.public.lawson.webtv.net, Cal E.
>> Rollins at crol...@webtv.net wrote on 21/7/03 1:43 pm:
>>
>>> Errol9,
>>>
>>> Since when could Baha'is be involved in governmental affairs at present?
>>> I thought such people had to resign such activities before being allowed
>>> to be Baha'is. --Cal
>>
>> The guy was a civil servant, not a member of a political party....Errol
>
> He was a member of some of the UN weapons inspection teams that
> went into Iraq after the first war.
"Dead **** CIVIL SERVANT **** entangled in a political web
http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/index.cfm?id=792392003
errol9
> As usual, Error's analysis is totally off the mark.
>
> Paul
Jul 19 2003 Based on the teachings of 19th-century Arab prophet Baha'ullah, it has no clergy and is run by elected bodies at local, national and international levels.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/content_objectid=13193809_method=full_siteid=89488_headline=-KELLY-SOUGHT-SOLACE-IN-BAHA-I-FAITH-name_page.html
Police enquiries continue as villagers pray for scientist
Rebecca Allison Monday July 21, 2003 The Guardian
"Barnabas Leith, secretary of the national assembly of the Baha'is in the UK, said the
Intolerable' last days of doctor who converted to pacifism
Leaders of the Baha'i religion followed by Dr Kelly said they were praying for his soul and for solace for his family. Barnabas Leith, secretary of the national assembly of the Baha'is in the UK, said the religion condemned suicide but added that God was "merciful" to those who had suffered. Dr Kelly converted to the pacifist faith four years ago while in the US and regularly attended gatherings at his local centre in Abingdon, Oxfordshire. Mr Leith said: "The true position is that the Baha'i teachings strongly condemn suicide. Baha'is believe that the soul of the individual comes ever closer to God in the life after death. Those who take their own lives risk damaging their soul in the life hereafter. "But this does not mean they cease to be Baha'is. And Baha'is believe that God is always merciful to those who have suffered in this life. Baha'is throughout the world are praying for the progress of David Kelly's soul." Mr Leith added that Baha'is did not have a regular weekly meeting, but members would be praying for Dr Kelly, his wife and his daughters. Dr Kelly is one of 6000 Baha'is in the UK and five million worldwide. The religion, founded in Iran around 160 years ago, preaches tolerance and unity.
http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/archive/21-7-19103-0-24-54.html
http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/politics.cfm?id=788752003
"Police enquiries continue as villagers pray for scientist" -
"The Guardian" 21 July 2003
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1002287,00.html
PANIC OVER DOCTOR'S 'KILLER FACT'
Sunday Mirror, UK - 20 Jul 2003
... The scientist was a member of the Bahai faith which does not regard suicide as a
sin - but excuses it as a release from "sorrows and afflictions" when under ...
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&edition=usa&q=bahai+afflictions
KELLY SLASHED WRIST
Dr Kelly, a member of the Baha'i Church, a liberal off-shoot of Islam,
http://www.people.co.uk/homepage/news/page.cfm?objectid=13197177&method=thepeople_full&siteid=79490
Caught in the middle of Labour's row with the BBC
A religious man, he was a practising member of the Baha¹i faith, and a former treasurer of the Abingdon Spiritual Assembly in Oxfordshire. http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/uk.cfm?id=782152003
Cal E. Rollins
I have read and heard rumors that there have been alleged suicide of
believers where there have been considerable debate and fuss made over
their burial in Baha'i cemetaries. Is there a law or regulation
regarding burial of suicides? --Cal
errol9
Qis...@aol.com wrote on 21/7/03 5:37 pm:
> errol9 <err...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:<BB41B0F1.2D25E%err...@ntlworld.com>...
>
>> PANIC OVER DOCTOR'S 'KILLER FACT'
>> Sunday Mirror, UK - 20 Jul 2003
>> ... The scientist was a member of the Bahai faith which does not regard
>> suicide as a
>> sin - but excuses it as a release from "sorrows and afflictions" when under
>> ...
>
> Hmm, Bahais are soft on suicide, euthanasia and abortion. It looks
> like the Bahais have more than a small debt to Manichean ideology and
> their heretical offshoots the Albigensians and the Bogomils.
Baha'i burial likely
July 23 2003
Abingdon, Oxfordshire
David Kelly's family is likely to bury him in accordance with the Baha'i
faith he adopted four years ago, after being told yesterday that his body
would be released this week.
Dr Kelly, 59, became interested in the faith, which began in the Middle
East, during his travels as a United Nations weapons inspector and adviser
to the British Government on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. He is
believed to have embraced its teachings in California. His wife, Janice, and
their three daughters remain members of the Church of England.
Barney Leith, secretary of the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'i
faith in Britain, said: "Baha'is locally are in touch with the Kelly family
to discuss the arrangements for the funeral, but no final decisions have
been taken."
Baha'is do not have cremations, with the body usually buried wrapped in five
pieces of silk and wearing a special ring on a finger. The faith follows the
teachings of Baha'u'llah, who was born in Persia in 1817 and who is regarded
by followers as the latest, but not the last, messenger of God. The central
theme of the Baha'u'llah message is that humanity is a single race that must
be united in one global society. Dr Kelly was an active member of the local
Baha'i community, based in Abingdon, Oxfordshire, near the Kelly family home
in Southmoor.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/07/22/1058853068184.html
THE KITAB-I-AQDAS (The Baha'i Most Holy Book of Laws)
128
The Lord hath decreed that the dead should be interred in coffins made of
crystal, of hard, resistant stone, or of wood that is both fine and durable,
and that graven rings should be placed upon their fingers. He, verily, is
the Supreme Ordainer, the One apprised of all.
129
The inscription on these rings should read, for men: "Unto God belongeth all
that is in the heavens and on the earth and whatsoever is between them, and
He, in truth, hath knowledge of all things"; and for women: "Unto God
belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatsoever is
between them, and He, in truth, is potent over all things". These are the
verses that were revealed aforetime, but lo, the Point of the &Bayan now
calleth out, exclaiming, "O Best-Beloved of the worlds! Reveal Thou in their
stead such words as will waft the fragrance of Thy gracious favours over all
mankind. We have announced unto everyone that one single word from Thee
excelleth all that hath been sent down in the &Bayan. Thou, indeed, hast
power to do what pleaseth Thee. Deprive not Thy servants of the overflowing
bounties of the ocean of Thy mercy! Thou, in truth, art He Whose grace is
infinite." Behold, We have hearkened to His call, and now fulfil His wish.
He, verily, is the Best-Beloved, the Answerer of prayers. If the following
verse, which hath at this moment been sent down by God, be engraved upon the
burial-rings of both men and women, it shall be better for them; We, of a
certainty, are the Supreme Ordainer: "I came forth from God, and return unto
Him, detached from all save Him, holding fast to His Name, the Merciful, the
Compassionate." Thus doth the Lord single out whomsoever He desireth for a
bounty from His presence. He is, in very truth, the God of might and power.
130
The Lord hath decreed, moreover, that the deceased should be enfolded in
five sheets of silk or cotton. For those whose means are limited a single
sheet of either fabric will suffice. Thus hath it been ordained by Him Who
is the All-Knowing, the All-Informed. It is forbidden you to transport the
body of the deceased a greater distance than one hour's journey from the
city; rather should it be interred, with radiance and serenity, in a nearby
place.
http://www.ishwar.com/bahai/holy_kitab_i_aqdas/texts07.html
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
"Susan Maneck " <sma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030721103559...@mb-m03.aol.com...
> >
> >
> >what is an "isolated believer"?
>
> An isolated believer means he lives in a locality where no other Baha'is
> reside.
Most of the country, in other words.
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
>
> An isolated believer means he lives in a locality where no other Baha'is
> reside.
Most of the country, in other words.
MOST@btinternet.com Dermod Ryder
> Excuse would not be an accurate description of the Baha'i position on
suicide.
> But we do not automatically assume such people are going to hell and
refuse to
> bury them as the Catholics do.
More crap from the pen that doth err constantly.
From whom did you "borrow" that idea? Does it go into the library of all of
the other ideas you have "borrowed" over the years - or perhaps only into
the "Book of the DST's Plagiarisms" (10 volumes - all copied).
multiman
Or at least all those areas which are outside the city limits or have
been gerymander and redrawn so that you no longer fit in the
community.
Paul Hammond
> in article c977f97b.03072...@posting.google.com, Paul Hammond at
> paha...@onetel.net.uk wrote on 22/7/03 12:15 pm:
>
> > errol9 <err...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> > news:<BB41B79C.2D264%err...@ntlworld.com>...
> >> in article 8726-3F1...@storefull-2332.public.lawson.webtv.net, Cal E.
> >> Rollins at crol...@webtv.net wrote on 21/7/03 1:43 pm:
> >>
> >>> Errol9,
> >>>
> >>> Since when could Baha'is be involved in governmental affairs at present?
> >>> I thought such people had to resign such activities before being allowed
> >>> to be Baha'is. --Cal
> >>
> >> The guy was a civil servant, not a member of a political party....Errol
> >
> > He was a member of some of the UN weapons inspection teams that
> > went into Iraq after the first war.
>
> "Dead **** CIVIL SERVANT **** entangled in a political web
>
> http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/index.cfm?id=792392003
>
Yes, Errol.
Do you think that I am somehow disagreeing with you here,
or what?
Is there something about being a civil servant that
is incompatible with being a member of UNSCOM in your
view?
Or are you just so used to arguing with me that you
have to leap to argumentation every time I post?
I am essentially agreeing with what you tersely
said, and amplifying for Cal's further information.
Paul
Paul Hammond
> in article c977f97b.03072...@posting.google.com, Paul Hammond at
> paha...@onetel.net.uk wrote on 21/7/03 1:03 pm:
>
> > errol9 <err...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> > news:<BB413A7C.2D23B%err...@ntlworld.com>...
> > Dan Jordan's murder in the US is nothing on this guy.
> >> I bet they UHJ in Haifa wished he was never converted 4 or 5 years ago What
> >> suprises me is all the attention the press has given to him being a Baha'i
> >> Seems very very fishy......................Errol
> >>
> >>
> >
> > All what press attention?
> >
> > Out of all those articles talking about Dr Kelly's death, only
> > one of them in the Independent even mentioned his faith.
>
> And more proof................Errol
>
> Police enquiries continue as villagers pray for scientist
>
> Rebecca Allison
> Monday July 21, 2003
> The Guardian
> Leaders of the Baha'i religion, followed by Dr Kelly, prayed for his soul
> yesterday.
>
Errol, grow up.
How about I make another observation, and offer a
prediction?
After going out tonight, I came back in time to watch
Newsnight. Big picture of Dr Kelly, no mention
of Dr Kelly's faith.
Then, I realised, that no-one has mentioned these
supplementary "human interest" type facts of his
life on broadcast media. No one, so far as I know,
has yet mentioned the fact that Dr Kelly was
a Baha'i on TV or Radio coverage of his death.
Okay, so here's the prediction:
If Dr Kelly does indeed have a Baha'i funeral,
*that* is the point at which this minor fact
will become full focus on the broadcast media.
*That* is when they will probably interview
whichever LSA (presumably Abingdon) handles the
ceremony. That will be when they have the
Baha'i spokesmen, or academics, on there explaining
"What is this Baha'i stuff he was into?".
If, as you seem to suspect, his family gets him
buried in a catholic church, broadcast media
will either continue not to mention this
"irrelevant" fact, or they will mention in passing
something like "although Dr Kelly was a Baha'i,
he is being buried in a catholic ceremony."
---
Apart from that, I haven't seen anything
"fishy" in the print-media's coverage of this
case - nor in the fact that when a Baha'i
has been embroiled in an enormous news story
that someone from national is releasing a statement,
and telling the Baha'is to refer all press enquiries
to the person the NSA has handling things.
So, excessive attention? What excessive attention?
The only thing I find fishy here is *your*
excessive attention to the unfortunate Dr
Kelly's faith.
Paul
Freethought110
> So the UHJ edicts that no Bahai is allowed to talk to the media?
Unless you are cleared by the Baha'i authorities, they usually don't
their followers talk to the media on their own intiative. This is why
I went ballistic over the NITV issue. Average joe Baha'is are
sanctioned and humiliated by Baha'i authorities for reading poetry on
air for a local Persian community cable access program, while other
Baha'is openly work as anchor men and woman (as well as have their own
show) on a political station like NITV with the Baha'i authorities so
much as whimpering.
> Do
> the Bahais submit their freedoms just as simply as this to their
> authorities?
Yup. Among countless other reasons as to why I left this
cult/religion, was the day it dawned on me how incredibly ludicrous it
is for one to submity and thereby relinquish ones freedoms in a
secular, free society to a theocratic, authoritarian body such as the
Baha'i administration.
> What kind of religion is that that you need permission
> to talk?
A very controlling religion/cult, much like the religion/cult it came
out of:
Shi'i Islam.
>
> "Varqa" <varqa...@address.com> wrote in message news:<LrHSa.24626$Ma.52...@news1.telusplanet.net>...
Freethought110
"***** Bahai Faith *****" <BI*P*G...@LIBERTY.COM> wrote in message news:<bfgomp$el2o5$1...@ID-75545.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: bahaice...@fglaysher.com
> To: t.ham...@dailyrecord.co.uk
> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 9:03 AM
> Subject: Bahai' Faith & Censorship
>
>
> http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/news/page.cfm?objectid=13193809&method=ful
> l&si\
> teid=89488
>
> KELLY SOUGHT SOLACE IN BAHA'I FAITH
> Jul 19 2003
> DR Kelly was one of a growing number of people who are members of the
> Baha'i faith.
>
> ----------
>
> In response to your article about Dr. Kelly," I
> believe Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan's Department
> of History, has a website of extensive and disturbing documentation
> that anyone interested in the Baha'i Faith should be aware of, especially
> his article "Fundamentalism in the Contemporary U.S. Baha'i Community,"
> Religious Studies Review, Vol. 43, no. 3 (March, 2002):195-217:
> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/2002/fundbhfn.htm
>
> In his book Modernity and the Millennium, published by Columbia University
> Press in 1998, Professor Cole observes the Baha'i administration has
> increasingly come under the control of fundamentalists, "stressing
> scriptural literalism . . . theocracy, censorship, intellectual intolerance,
> and denying key democratic values (196)."
>
Cal E. Rollins
Are you implying that we should be relieved that the media seems
disinterested in the fact that Dr. Kelly is a Baha'i? Sounds like
whenever somebody among us can't make the religion look good, we ought
to keep quiet about them. I can understand that desire, but it sends
out an internal and external message that to be a Baha'i is not to be
human or even interesting. Well, now that I think on it, didn't Christ
say, "The boring shall inherit the earth?" --Cal
Cal E. Rollins
I've been asking around about the burial ring and how on earth we can
get that much in English on and inside such a ring. Most people I talk
to say the Greatest Name ring has essentially the same thing as
prescribed in the Aqdas for male and female burial rings. Is that true
in Ireland? --Cal
Paul Hammond
> Paul,
>
> Are you implying that we should be relieved that the media seems
> disinterested in the fact that Dr. Kelly is a Baha'i?
No. I am saying what I said.
Errol seems to see "something fishy" in the press
coverage of Dr Kelly's faith. I'm seeing nothing
untoward.
Errol thinks there has been "undue press attention"
to Dr Kelly's faith. I can't see that there has
hardly been any attention to it at all - which seems
to me to be as it should be.
I guarantee you that if you did a survey amongst
people who have heard the name Dr Kelly right now,
I bet above 80% of them wouldn't know Kelly was
a Baha'i. If I didn't read here, I wouldn't know
it, even though there have been a couple of articles
about his faith in my favourite newspaper.
Sounds like
> whenever somebody among us can't make the religion look good, we ought
> to keep quiet about them.
I don't know why you would think anyone ought to
be "ashamed" to own Dr Kelly. Most people who knew
him seemed to like him, and I have hardly heard a
bad word said against him in recent days. Of course,
people don't tend to trash someone after they just
died, but I bet if someone like Jeffrey Archer
died you'd still be able to pick up between the
lines what people really thought of him. (I *would*
be ashamed if Jeffry Archer was a member of my
religion!)
Paul
Susan Maneck
>buried in a catholic church, broadcast media
>will either continue not to mention this
>"irrelevant" fact, or they will mention in passing
>something like "although Dr Kelly was a Baha'i,
>he is being buried in a catholic ceremony."
I didn't think the Catholics would bury suicide victims.
reli...@yahoo.com
Cal, I dont know I have never seen a Baha;i burial ring. I agree with
you it seems a lot to get on one ring, but maybe when written in
Arabic or Farsi its not as long as in English. However it appears the
inscriptions were originally prescribed by the Bab in the Bayan, and
in the Aqdas Baha'u'llah changed the requirement to only the single
inscription written in section 129. Here is a quote from the Notes
section of the Aqdas, number 149, which I believe is on page 229:
"In brief, the Bahá'í law for the burial of the dead states that it is
forbidden to carry the body for more than one hour's journey from the
place of death; that the body should be wrapped in a shroud of silk or
cotton, and on its finger should be placed a ring bearing the
inscription "I came forth from God, and return unto Him, detached from
all save Him, holding fast to His Name, the Merciful, the
Compassionate"; and that the coffin should be of crystal, stone or
hard fine wood." So Baha'u'llah actually "equalized" the Baha'i law
for burial originated by the Bab.
You would think if that be the case why put the old law from the Bayan
in the Aqdas at all when its been abrogated by
Baha'u'llah..............Errol
reli...@yahoo.com
(I *would* be ashamed if Jeffry Archer was a member of my religion!)
>
So our Paul would be ashamed if Jeffery Archer was an Atheist/Agnostic.
This is the TRB joke of the week...............Errol
reli...@yahoo.com
> Errol thinks there has been "undue press attention"
> to Dr Kelly's faith. I can't see that there has
> hardly been any attention to it at all - which seems
> to me to be as it should be.
> Paul
Errol is not the only one who thinks the way he did. The UK NSA
were so concerned about "undue press attention".they issued the
following letter. Its obvious Paul never read the contents of the
letter.from Barnabas Leith the secretary of the UK
NSA.............................................................Errol
From: Varqa <varqa...@address.com>
Reply-To: "Varqa" <varqa...@address.com>
Organization: Varqa Newsgroups: <soc.culture.iranian>,
<talk.religion.bahai> Date: MondayJuly 6211020032002 1:35 am
Subject: Re: Kelly was a baha'i
in article a2dc236c.0307...@posting.google.com, Monsef at
vatan...@web.de wrote on 21/7/03 7:23 am:
Cal E. Rollins
What would be wrong with Jeffry Archer if he were a Baha'i? Baha'is can
do no wrong. People who accept Baha'u'llah are in all levels of society
and spiritual development. Right? I suspect that if Attila the Hun
could have been a Baha'i we'd have been hailing him as our first
forward-moving, affirmative, and pluralistic Baha'i world leader.
Didn't the House of Justice tell us a while back to shut up when we were
hailing President Bush as the herald of the New World Order (ours not
his) ?--Cal
Cal E. Rollins
I thought I read somewhere that Dr. Kelly's family was Anglican and the
implication was that he'd be buried in the 18-person village's cemetary.
Anglican's don't care about prohibitions for burial, do they? I never
heard of it in any of Christie's Miss Marple murder mysteries. I
understand there have been cases of suspected Baha'i suicides that have
stirred discussions about burial in Baha'i cemetaries but have never
seen any kind of policy. --Cal
Paul Hammond
It seems his family isn't Catholic anyway.
I don't know where I got that idea from.
Paul
Pat Kohli
Susan Maneck wrote:
> >If, as you seem to suspect, his family gets him
> >buried in a catholic church, broadcast media
> >will either continue not to mention this
> >"irrelevant" fact, or they will mention in passing
> >something like "although Dr Kelly was a Baha'i,
> >he is being buried in a catholic ceremony."
>
> I didn't think the Catholics would bury suicide victims.
>
Those Catholics are making changes, perhaps to keep the non-Catholics
guessing.
http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/recent2002/suicide_church_2002.shtml
errol9
> sma...@aol.com (Susan Maneck ) wrote in message
> news:<20030723234300...@mb-m22.aol.com>...
>>> If, as you seem to suspect, his family gets him
>>> buried in a catholic church, broadcast media
>>> will either continue not to mention this
>>> "irrelevant" fact, or they will mention in passing
>>> something like "although Dr Kelly was a Baha'i,
>>> he is being buried in a catholic ceremony."
>>
>I didn't think the Catholics would bury suicide victims.
An act was passed in the UK to stop that practice before the Bahai Faith
began...................Errol
An Act of 1823 had put an end to the practice of burying suicides in some
public highway with a stake driven through them.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bradford/sense_of_place/hidden_death_2.shtml
Susan Maneck
>Those Catholics are making changes, perhaps to keep the non-Catholics
>guessing.
I'm glad to see they change that. It always seemed inhuman to me.
warmest, Susan
Paul Hammond
No Errol,
as usual, you have missed my point entirely.
Paul
Paul Hammond
>
> > Errol thinks there has been "undue press attention"
> > to Dr Kelly's faith. I can't see that there has
> > hardly been any attention to it at all - which seems
> > to me to be as it should be.
>
> > Paul
>
> Errol is not the only one who thinks the way he did. The UK NSA
> were so concerned about "undue press attention".they issued the
> following letter. Its obvious Paul never read the contents of the
> letter.from Barnabas Leith the secretary of the UK
> NSA.............................................................Errol
>
Errol,
There is press attention.
There is not undue press attention.
The fact that Dr Kelly was Baha'i means that some
journalists are likely to be asking questions
about the Baha'i Faith.
It is only conspiracy theorists like you and
Fred who persist in thinking that there is
"something fishy" going on - but then, you think
that there's something fishy going on when the
sun rises each morning.
Stop being a twat - we have all, already seen
Barney's statement to the Baha'is about handling
the press, and sending them to the right place,
the first three times you posted it.
Paul
btw - I still haven't heard Kelly's faith mentioned
on TV or radio yet - have you?
I stick by my predicition that Kelly's religion will
not be mentioned until the day of the funeral.
errol9
paha...@onetel.net.uk wrote on 25/7/03 11:36 am:
> btw - I still haven't heard Kelly's faith mentioned
> on TV or radio yet - have you?
Yes I have, a UK NSA member of the House of Commons external affairs
committee was on BBC radio talkback programme two days ago talking about the
Baha'i Faith and Dr Kelly..................Errol
Paul Hammond
Sorry? *Which* UK NSA member is also a member of the HoC external
affairs committee? I had no idea the UK Baha'is were so
prominent on parliamentary committees.
and which Radio 4 programme were they talking back about?
(Talkback is the Radio 4 letters programme, where the presenter
tries to answer listeners letters and comments about BBC
radio programmes, including trying to get answers from
the producers of programmes listeners have complained
about - thus, if they had a Baha'i on this programme,
it was probably in regard to coverage of the Baha'i faith
on some other programme during the week)
Paul
Pat Kohli
Paul Hammond wrote:
> errol9 <err...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<BB46D93B.2E9B9%err...@ntlworld.com>...
> > in article c977f97b.0307...@posting.google.com, Paul Hammond at
> > paha...@onetel.net.uk wrote on 25/7/03 11:36 am:
> >
> > > btw - I still haven't heard Kelly's faith mentioned
> > > on TV or radio yet - have you?
> >
> > Yes I have, a UK NSA member of the House of Commons external affairs
> > committee was on BBC radio talkback programme two days ago talking about the
> > Baha'i Faith and Dr Kelly..................Errol
>
> Sorry? *Which* UK NSA member is also a member of the HoC external
> affairs committee?
My guess would be Jessica Lynch, of course!
Freethought110
> It is only conspiracy theorists like you and
> Fred who persist in thinking that there is
> "something fishy" going on - but then, you think
> that there's something fishy going on when the
> sun rises each morning.
If a guy committing suicide (who also happens to be baha'i) on the eve
of an governmental investigation over Blair's WMD assertions is not
fishy to you??? At what point would it begin to be fishy where you're
concerned?
Paul Hammond
If you had remained aware of the context, you would realise
that the "something fishy" referred to a comment Errol made
about the *press coverage* of the suicide.
I dispute the assertion that there is even anything untoward
or over the top about the very small amount of press
attention the Baha'i Faith has received as a result of
Dr Kelly's death, so I wouldn't even be accepting the
premise that there is something here needing an
explanation, let alone getting the conspiracy engine
running.
As to the suicide itself, I think it is something sad,
rather than something fishy, thanks for asking.
If anyone needs to reconsider their position right now,
I should say it was Tony Blair and the Labour government,
it will certainly make me reconsider supporting this
party at the next general election.
The Baha'i Faith's role in all this is incidental, in
my view, and I believe the press coverage of Dr Kelly's
faith has also been incidental in nature.
Paul
Freethought110
> my view, and I believe the press coverage of Dr Kelly's
> faith has also been incidental in nature.
That incidentality is about to change. Count on it!
Paul Hammond
I'll count on you continuing to be full of shit, and
for an academically trained person, displaying a
shocking inability to read a text.
Paul