Public discussion of corruption in Baha'i institutions
Jim Habegger
Baha'u'llah's purposes and prescriptions, to say anything on this
list, under any circumstances, about corruption in Baha'i
institutions, without giving documented examples.
Jim
Jeremiah
Jim, we just had the findings of a $28 million dollar Royal Commission
whereby the found corruption was rife in WA's police force. Still the
force says it was a sexed-up dossier because of the money involved
irregardless of documentation. A former Policeman said there will
always be corruption in organizations. So doucmentation, or no
doucumentation it doesn't make much difference. But when members and
whistleblowers are gagged from relating their experience and findings
there's NEVER a chance to keep the corruption miminalized. The new
strategies for keeping corruption at a minimum include giving more
support/protection to the 'whistleblowers' as well as setting classes
on 'integrity' at a high priority and insuring those standards are
practiced, as well as stopping the supression of evidence of
corruption.
Bottom line....if people are getting 'raped' they have the right to
say so - evidence and documentation can always be used or
misused....and as we have seen on trb and in the Kelly case that even
when documentation is presented it receives plausible denials as well
as in some instances been manufactured. Even the writings have been
fiddled with from early on in the game and are still being 'reshaped
and rephrased'. Like for instance, the Writings originally said it was
the Baha'is responsibility to care for the poor in the world...but
last decade the uhj changed the wording to mean it is the Baha'is
responsibility to care for *spiritually poor* in the community thereby
leaving them off the hook for giving money to charity (this was done
in a prayer - yet Juan has produced a Tablet where it makes taking
care of the poor a physical responsibility by the LSA's etc. The one
thing we know...they aren't helping the poor.
So I would say forget it - the obfuscation goes toooooo deep.
Jeremiah*
Jeremiah*
Swiss Heritage
Here's my view:
1. In some contexts, with the motives and intentions I have, I don't
think it's contrary to Baha'u'llah's purposes and prescriptions, to
discuss corruption of Baha'i institutions, on trb.
2. If it is wrong, regardless of context, circumstances, motives and
intentions, to discuss corruption of Baha'i institutions, on trb, then
I don't think that providing evidence would make it right. I think it
would be even worse, to give specific examples.
Jim
Susan Maneck
>when documentation is presented it receives plausible denials
????? Documentation showing what?
>. Like for instance, the Writings originally said it was
>the Baha'is responsibility to care for the poor in the world...but
>last decade the uhj changed the wording to mean it is the Baha'is
>responsibility to care for *spiritually poor*
Show me where the House of Justice did this? We have done more work in the area
of social and economic development in the last two decades than we have done in
the entire century and a half proceeding that.
>thereby
>leaving them off the hook for giving money to charity (this was done
>in a prayer
Show me.
> yet Juan has produced a Tablet where it makes taking
>care of the poor a physical responsibility by the LSA's etc.
Yes, there is a Tablet wherein Abdu'l-Baha urges the LSA of Tihran to engage in
such activities. Larger communities are still urged to do this. However, where
resources are small this can't always be given too high a priority. Abdu'l-Baha
also said that for the first two hundred years the Baha'is would need to
concentrate the bulk of their energy on the Teaching work.
>The one
>thing we know...they aren't helping the poor.
>
Au contraire, many communities are.
http://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/
Baha'i Studies is available through the following:
http://list.jccc.net/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=bahai-st
Susan Maneck
>intentions, to discuss corruption of Baha'i institutions, on trb, then
>I don't think that providing evidence would make it right.
It might not. But at least it wouldn't make a double wrong. Given what the
Universal House of Justice has stated regarding criticism one could argue that
it is wrong to criticize the Institutions in public forums such as this period.
But I personally think that motives do make difference in this regard. But
making unfounded and unsubstantiated accusations of a serious nature
constitutes slander and libel and that is both wrong and illegal whether one is
in a Baha'i or non-Baha'i context.
warmest, Susan
Baldrick
at sma...@aol.com wrote on 3/3/04 8:31 pm:
>
> Show me where the House of Justice did this? We have done more work in the
> area of social and economic development in the last two decades than we have
> done in the entire century and a half proceeding that.
Social & economic development my butt.
Where is the evidence to prove this?
Baldrick
Jim Habegger
corruption in public institutions.
Jim
Randy Burns
No need to cite evidence of the essential corruption of Baha'i institutions.
Why? for the simple fact that the vast majority of our institutions are used
solely as tools for proselytizing efforts and not for the purposes devised
by Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha. This is the secret corruption at the heart
of the Faith at this time.
Cheers, Randy
--
"Swiss Heritage" <geo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5fe095d0.04030...@posting.google.com...
Susan Maneck
>solely as tools for proselytizing efforts and not for the purposes devised
>by Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha.
Dear Randy,
If you are saying because currently they give the Teaching work top priority,
this precisely what Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha told them to do. Abdu'l-Baha
wrote the following:*ta divist sal-i digar bayad afkar hasr dar tabligh
bashad.* [Until another two
hundred years are past thoughts should be limited to teaching.]
Similiarly Abdu'l-Baha said: "It is clear that in this day, confirmations from
the unseen world are encompassing all those who deliver the divine Message.
Should the work of teaching lapse, these confirmations would be entirely cut
off, since it is impossible for the loved ones of God to receive assistance
unless they teach."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 264)
As for Baha'u'llah, He stated the following:
"When in session it behooveth them to converse, on behalf of the servants of
God, on matters dealing with the affairs and interests of the public. For
instance, teaching the Cause of God must be accorded precedence, inasmuch as it
is a matter of paramount importance, so that thereby all men may enter the
pavilion of unity and all the peoples of the earth be regarded even as a single
body. . . ."
(Compilations, NSA USA - Developing Distinctive Baha'i Communities)
Jeremiah
> Jeremiah, thanks for your examples of what's being done to overcome
> corruption in public institutions.
>
> Jim
No worries. However, I would like to state that while I do agree that
more support is necessary for 'whistleblowers' re corruption 'within'
an institution it should not be brought to an excess whereby it in
turn, turns on the victims by creating a worse panopticon mind-set
within and without a community. This is an instance, where the proper
moderation is exercised.
Jeremiah*
Baldrick
at Jere...@volcanomail.com wrote on 4/3/04 5:59 am:
> This is an instance, where the proper moderation is exercised.
How can those within the Bahai AO who are selected to do any
moderating amongst their fellow Bahais when there is no one to
moderate them?
The problem is when a member of the Bahai AO commits a misdemeanor
against his/her fellow Baha'is and that Baha'i issues a complaint, the
actions usually taken by the AO is to close ranks and protect the AO
member for the protection of the institution. It is here were the
spark of inner corruption begins, and the Bahai AO is far from being a
democratic up from the bottom elected open religious movement it is
made out to be. Instead it is a facist down from the top controled
movement not any different than other such religious and non-religious
organisations throughout history.
Baldrick
Jim Habegger
Baha'i institutions, I don't think it's wrong for them to use trb to
discuss what to do about it, without first proving it to people who
don't believe it. In fact, I think it would be wrong for them to
allow the reactions of other participants to harass or intimidate them
into silence. I also think it would be wrong for them to discuss
specific cases, merely to satisfy the demands of skeptics.
Jim
Susan Maneck
>Baha'i institutions, I don't think it's wrong for them to use trb to
>discuss what to do about it
Dear Jim,
It is quite possible to talk about ways to improve the functioning of our
institutions without making unsubstantiated charges of corruption.
alivine
for the poor and the sick.
Instead, all donations are turned over TO the BAHA'I MACHINERY- in
turns, no official public accounting is EVER PROVIDED. For example,
the UNIVERSAL HOUSE OF JUSTICE has at least over 1 billion dollars in
its ENDOWMENT FUND. There is no official written breakdown provided
for the GLASSY EYED NAIVE members of BAHA'ISM. In fact, the only
communication is the NEED TO ASSIST THE FUNDS at "level unprecended in
history".
On the other hand, many IRANIAN BAHA'I who have arrived on US soil
SEEK TO ACTIVELY DEFRAUD THE AMERICAN SYSTEM. Iranian Baha'i- enjoy
defrauding the system- as this is PART OF THE IRANIAN CULTURE called
"zerangi"..
To prove to you the accuracy of the above statement, ONE NEEDS TO
REFER TO A DUCUMENT written by the National Spiritual Assembly of the
Baha'is of USA for the USA government in 1986. The document
specifically informs the US authorities of the IRANIAN cultural MOTIVE
for FINANCIALLY DEFRAUDING THE US WELFARE SYSTEM.
Most Iranians call the activity of defrauding as "ZERANGI". It is a
great subject of conversation during lavish dinners. Dr. Berjis in Los
Angeles was HIGHLY RESPECTED BY FELLOW BAHA'IS for his GRAND THEFT -
largest in the history of Los Angeles County (LA TIMES January 14,
2004). There are many Iranina Baha'is in SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA who
ACTIVELY DEFRAUD THE CALIFORNIA WELFARE SYSTEM. For example, a
favorite technique is for the Iranian to live in a lavish house in
BEVERLY HILLS, CA -while pretending to be poor and simply rented one
bedroom in the expensive house. AT THE SAME TIME, those Iranian
Baha'is receive MONTHLY US WELFARE CHECKS AND AT TIMES HAVE FALSELY
CLAIMED DISABILITY.
A specific example that I KNOW PERSONALLY involves AN IRANIAN BAHA'I
who had lived in Germany for 20 years, and owned a successful pharmacy
business in Frankfurt. This gentleman moved to the USA in 1997, and
immediately applied for WELFARE. He is currently receiving welfare
checks including food stamps, MEDI-CAL insurance ( equivalent to
Medicaid in other states), and finally HIS SO-CALLED disabilty was
approved by MEDICARE- so he now receives even more money.
Unfortunately, this Iranian Baha'i Pharmacist does DRAW RETIREMENT
CHECKS FROM THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT. All of these payments from US and
German government ARE TAX FREE.
To make matters worse, he lives in BEVERLY HILLS- but sadly complaints
that he is poor, and "rents one room" in the lavish ten bedrooms
house. He attends lavish parties - mostly attended by Jewish Baha'is-
who had worked under SABET IN IRAN. And finally, this gentleman has
brought in large amount of money out of IRAN with the help of SABET.
Many Iranian Baha'is- on welfare- go to local churches to obtain
money for utilities. In effect, they use Christianity for their own
good- IN ORDER TO ACCOMPLISH THE SUPREMACY OF IRANIAN BAHA'I THEOCRACY
on earth.
IT IS HOPED THAT US WELFARE SYSTEM does officially publish the names
of the large amount of IRANIAN BAHA'IS WHO ARE DEFRAUDING THE WELFARE
SYSTEM.
This Baha'i Iranian Pharmacist keeps his large stack of over
$1,000,000.00 under his kids name. Both of his children are well to
do, and in fact one of them WORKS FOR THE SUNLAND GROUP IN AUSTRALIA.
HERE IS RESPONSE BY ANOTHER POSTER TO THE LETTER FROM UHJ:
"Current world events offer Baha'is an opportunity to demonstrate the
application of the remedy brought by the Divine Physician.
True. One might think that the House would now be ready to call on
Baha'is to address issues of war and peace, hunger, starvation and
poverty - for example - in many different ways. Help provide food and
financial aid to Afghan refugees, maybe to support UN and other
international efforts to restore order to Afghanistan to somehow
alleviate in some way the suffering of the Afghan people - or a
million other things. The world is in great pain. It always has been.
There are many good deeds that await being done, like a guardian angel
calling silently to its charge. . .telling it to make the right
choice.
Instead:
At this critical moment, we find ourselves compelled to turn to you,
our coworkers, to inform you of the pressing need for a marked
increase in contributions to the Baha'i International Fund.
Yup, that'll sure solve those problems. Give more money to the UHJ.
You may as well spend it on lottery tickets - at least you'll increase
state revenues that might help pave a road or something. Yes, the
world is in despair, much needs to be done - so get out your wallets
out and give the UHJ money. What nerve these IAA charter members have.
Now, let's see what they want the money for:
A great portion of the resources in this Fund is expended outside the
Holy Land for the advancement of the Cause of God. These expenditures
are of special importance at this time when the Five Year Plan gives
every indication of fielding a significant advance in the process of
entry by troups in the years ahead.
The official Baha'i Faith is utterly obsessed witht the concept of
"entry by troops" - a statement made by Abdul Baha nearly a century
ago. Each of the multi-year plans, horrid boring stultifying documents
filled with pure bullshit, give the impression that entry by troops is
about to happen, but it never does. Wonder why? Keep reading.
This same Fund must finance the operation of the Baha'i World Centre,
the maintenance of the sacred properties of the Holy Land, the conduct
of the pilgrimage programme, and the defence and proclamation of the
Faith.
For years and years the House has been working on major construction
projects on Mt. Carmel. Very expensive buildings have been built -
including a really federal looking monster called the Seat of the
Universal House of Justice - but others as well. Probably about 250
million US dollars to build. This is not counting the 19 overdone
Terraces defacing Mt. Carmel - making it look even more gaudy than the
place where Dorothy's house dropped on top of the wicked witch of
east (I think it was the east.) This has severly drained the resources
of Baha'i communities. Sources with some access have informed Baha'i
Angst that the upkeep of all this ostentatiousness has been crippling
the UHJ's budget for some time. From the following text, it looks like
these sources were well informed.
We now appeal for a response to this need from all the followers of
Baha'u'llah. Our appeal is addressed to all without exception: those
of modest means as well as those who possess substantial resources.
Your immediate and sustained action is imperative, for the discharge
of your spiritual obligation to contribute towards the advancement of
the Cause can suffer no delay.
Gotto love it. They've mishandled their budgeting, built a Disneyland
on Mt. Carmel that they cannot afford, but it is the rank and file's
spiritual obligation to support this. Keep this in mind if you are
thinking of signing up. You are spiritually obligated to support the
admistrative and financial malfeasance of a bunch of miscreants -
themselves on the whole quite rich, btw. We also like the "no delay"
part. They must be hurting bad. We suggest they hire one of those
firms who send us all debt relief schemes in our email.
The blessings that flow from your sacrificial deeds are assured. The
present crisis in the Baha'i International Fund is due, in
considerable measure, to the sharp reduction in resources available,
consequent to the economic downturn afflicting much of the world.
Yup, the whole world economy is so screwed up that they can't get
enough money to mow the grass and water the flowers or maintain their
beautiful buildings. Aren't these the same bunch of moolah mongers who
started off this harrangue with tripe about how there's "a growing
sense of a fundamental change of far-reaching dimensions that chills
preoccupations with the pleasures and comforts of material existence"?
Also, if it is true that the world-wide economic collapse is hurting
the UHJ's fund so much, might it not also be true that other
non-profits that actually do something - like feeding the poor,
sheltering the sick or the battered, or defending the weak, that they
might need money too - now more than ever? So what or who do ya want
to support - flower gardens? Or the poor, the tired, the hungry, the
ill, the oppressed? It's up to you.
Here's the next reason for the fund's dire need:
It arises also, in part, from the necessity to provide assistance from
the Baha'i Internenational Fund to sustain the work of the Faith in
the growing number of countries devistated by warfare, internal
division, and endemic poverty.
Right. The faith is doing little if anything in any of these places.
If it were, it would be bragging about it like hell all over the
place. No doubt some Baha'is supported by UHJ money are doing some
good, but far too little is spent on doing good - just read the next
line.
However,
I knew there was a "but" coming. "However" is just a fancy way to
spell "but."
a major cause of our present deep concern is the necessity to maintain
at the befitting standard, the buildings and gardens at the World
Centre.
So, this whole letter was a setup for the faithful. Give them the
stale and pale rhetoric, rhetoric worn so thin from years of abuse,
and maybe they'll buy it one more time. I don't think they will and I
hope they don't.
An indication of the increase of costs is that the area of the gardens
has now more than doubled.
Duh!. Twenty years of building projects coupled with 19 huge hideous
terraces greatly increasing both the land area and the real estate
that must be maintained and what to you expect? "Entry by troops" was
supposed to take care of this problem. But when you have a religion
that does not meet people's spritual needs - a religion whose fruits
are in building empty buildings and not people's souls, hearts and
minds, you won't have entry by troops - an image Baha'i Angst has
always found unsettling anway.
The Baha'i International Fund must not fail to meet these needs.
Wrong again, O House of Only Men. Baha'i Angst strongly recommends
that the fund fail completely, that these idiots be deprived of their
tax-free subsidies which they have squandered, that they be forced to
move the whole operation into a couple of flats in the poorer sections
of Haifa, while the local communities around the world use their
limited resources to build real bridges to others at home.
To assist it, we have decided to set up the World Centre Endowment
Fund for the preservation, upkeep, and security of the edifices and
precincts of the Spiritual and Administrative Centres of the Faith -
activities that currently form so large a part of the responsibilities
of the Baha'i International Fund.
Here again is an admisstion that the buildings, the land, the endless
gardens are driving the UHJ financially bankrupt. So, the answer is,
of course, to set up yet another fund - this time an endowment fund.
What a novel idea. Usery for the nursery.
This decision follows the example of Shoghi Effendi, who during his
ministry dedicated the income from lands in the environs of the Jordan
Valley for the upkeep of the Holy Shrines.
Here is yet another example of Shoghi Effendi behing the
Central Figure of the Baha'i Faith and who, not Abdul Baha, is also
the real role model for admin crazy Baha'is. This site has commented
on this phenomenon in other places. Browse around and take a look if
you are new.
This Endowment Fund, to which you are urged to contribute, beyond your
general support of the Baha'i International Fund, will initially be
used to defray the related expenses, estimated at the present time to
be seven million dollars annually.
So, first poor fund-beaten Baha'is must RIGHT NOW and for a
"SUSTAINED" period immediately support the already bloated and
wasteful Bahai International Fund - it's their spiritual obligation to
support administrative incompetence. But that's not enough - somehow
there's always even more, isn't there? Yup, they are also urged to
contribute to the Endowment Fund too. Of course that fund won't have
enough capital to be useful for years - as the following seems to
indicate.
Whatever balance remains unexpended at the end of each year will be
retained as an earmarked fund and, as it grows in the years ahead,
will provide a continuing source of investment income dedicated to
maintaining the magnificent setting of these Holy Places. These
precincts were created gradually, during the past centuary, through
the sacrificial outpouring of resources by the believers who responded
to the vision of Baha'u'llah and supported the strenuous endeavours of
the Master and the Guardian.
More bull. Over twenty years ago the place was already way over done -
but the House then went on a huge spending spree for twenty more
years. The doubling of the area of the gardens, cited by the House
above for example, is a very recent phenomena - having been finished
just a few months ago - plus the recently completion of several
buildings - the arc or whatever they call it. This largess is very
recent.
It is essential that this splendour, befitting so sacred a place, be
preserved undiminished in the decades and centuries ahead. Our ardent
supplication in the Holy Shrines is for the reinforcement of the
consecrated endeavors of the lovers of the Blessed Beauty in every
land, as they respond to the needs of the ever-advancing cause of God.
The ever advancing cause of God needed to have the flower gardens
doubled. In the meantime, Palestine is in flames, war looms in South
Asia, Afghanistan is a wreck . . . and so much else. But never fear,
for the above letter is signed by:
The Universal House of Justice
baldri...@yahoo.co.uk (Baldrick) wrote in message news:<9b91a665.04030...@posting.google.com>...
YOUR RESPONSES MAY CHANGE EVERYTHING.
A>E>
Randy Burns
"Susan Maneck " <sma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040304001855...@mb-m07.aol.com...
>
> If you are saying because currently they give the Teaching work top
priority,
> this precisely what Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha told them to do.
Abdu'l-Baha
> wrote the following:*ta divist sal-i digar bayad afkar hasr dar tabligh
> bashad.* [Until another two
> hundred years are past thoughts should be limited to teaching.]
Well in all honesty they don't "give" the Teaching work top priority, they
are "ordered" to give Teaching work top priority, there is a difference
between the two.
Second, the work they are ordered to do is not "Teaching" as defined for
Baha'is purposes, but rather proselytizing. Teaching for Baha'is generally
would mean living the life or putting the principles and ideas of
Baha'u'llah to work in the world. This is not the type of thing that LSA's
are largely encouraged to do or direct the believers in doing, rather it is
more of a campaign for proselytizing or it often devolves into same under
pressure from the higher institutions.
Thirdly, what might be wonderful advice for individuals might not be the
best for the institutions.
> Similiarly Abdu'l-Baha said: "It is clear that in this day, confirmations
from
> the unseen world are encompassing all those who deliver the divine
Message.
> Should the work of teaching lapse, these confirmations would be entirely
cut
> off, since it is impossible for the loved ones of God to receive
assistance
> unless they teach."
>
> (Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 264)
Baha'is at the institutional level have never drawn a sharp distinction
between "teaching" and "proselytizing" and for that reason discussions on
methods of the teaching work often lapse into proselytization methods, or
perhaps one should say "always" but that isn't true only because so many
individual Baha'is still have a conscience.
> As for Baha'u'llah, He stated the following:
>
> "When in session it behooveth them to converse, on behalf of the servants
of
> God, on matters dealing with the affairs and interests of the public. For
> instance, teaching the Cause of God must be accorded precedence, inasmuch
as it
> is a matter of paramount importance, so that thereby all men may enter the
> pavilion of unity and all the peoples of the earth be regarded even as a
single
> body. . . ."
The primary reason one can call the current state of the Institutions a
"corruption" is because the overemphasis on proselytizing often causes
Baha'i burnout and dropout. Did Baha'u'llah advise the servants to spend so
much time teaching the Cause of God that the believers are forced to dropout
simply to protect their health, livlihoods and sense of self?
One must apply the advice of Baha'u'llah within the context of Baha'u'llah's
principles, not pervert Baha'u'llah's principles in order to apply one of
his advices.
Cheers, Randy
Susan Maneck
>Second, the work they are ordered to do is not "Teaching" as defined for
>Baha'is purposes, but rather proselytizing.
Dear Randy
And how exactly is Teaching defined for Baha'i purposes? Do you even know what
word is being translated that way?
>Teaching for Baha'is generally
>would mean living the life or putting the principles and ideas of
>Baha'u'llah to work in the world.
That is not the way 'Abdu'l-Baha used the term in the Tablet I qouted. He was
specifically referring to travel teachers. The term for teaching, btw, is
tabligh which literally means to propagandize. During Abdu'l-Baha's time there
were full-time *mublagin* who engaged in this kind of activity. And this Tablet
is addressed specifically to that kind of work. There is no mention in this
particular context to 'living the life' type activities.
>Thirdly, what might be wonderful advice for individuals might not be the
>best for the institutions.
I believe I already gave you a qoute from Baha'u'llah where He insists that the
teaching work (lit. propagation) be given top priority.
>
>The primary reason one can call the current state of the Institutions a
>"corruption" is because the overemphasis on proselytizing often causes
>Baha'i burnout and dropout.
The definition of proselytizing for Baha'i purposes has always been that it
contains an element of coercion of the one being taught. This is what is
dissallowed. But giving top priority to Teaching, yes even propagandizing, is
clearly something which both t Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha commanded.
>Did Baha'u'llah advise the servants to spend so
>much time teaching the Cause of God that the believers are forced to dropout
>simply to protect their health, livlihoods and sense of self?
Rhetorical question.
>
>One must apply the advice of Baha'u'llah within the context of Baha'u'llah's
>principles, not pervert Baha'u'llah's principles in order to apply one of
>his advices.
Sounds more like you want us to apply them in the context of your own
principles and priorities instead of Baha'u'llah's.
Susan Maneck
>Members of BAHA'I CULT are NOT WILLING AND NOT URGED TO provide funds
>for the poor and the sick.
I do. And so do most Baha'is I know.
>Instead, all donations are turned over TO the BAHA'I MACHINERY- in
>turns, no official public accounting is EVER PROVIDED.
Nonsense. Both LSAs and NSAs have annual audits, the results of which are
usually publicized in the annual meetings.
>Iranian Baha'i- enjoy
>defrauding the system- as this is PART OF THE IRANIAN CULTURE called
>"zerangi"..
So what is the point of these ethnic slurs?
Cal E. Rollins
If it is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time, why can't we
teach and help the poor? 'Abdu'l-Baha seems to have helped the poor
while he taught in America. Apparently there were plenty of converts
when he left and went back to Palestine. --Cal
Cal E. Rollins
You know institutions who provide for the poor and the sick? Where they
at? I know of three cases where old people were stupid enough to give
their money to the Faith while they were still alive and they were told
essentially that that was tuff toenails. One old lady had sense enough
to threaten to sue to get her money back. The other two had to catch as
catch can and died pretty much alone with hardly anybody even willing to
pick them up and take them to the Feast. --Cal
Cal E. Rollins
If we can talk about people on this list, what's wrong with talking
about the institutions? All they are are people elected from our ranks.
They don't just grow like topsy or drop from the sky like manna. --Cal
Susan Maneck
>You know institutions who provide for the poor and the sick?
Cal,
Henry was saying *Baha'is* not the Institutions don't provide for the poor and
sick. And yes, I know some that do. When I lived in India the Baha'i doctors
regularly went out to deliver medical care to the rural areas. Likewise, the
Ruhi school is aimed at educating the poor. Latin America and Africa have
similiar projects. Each community has to gauge its own resources to decide what
can be devoted to such projects. Often it is more effective for Baha''is to
give to existing charities than try to start up their own.
> Where they
>at?
Well, I know in your area they started a program where they provided a place
where the homeless looking for work could access voice mail and phone messages.
>I know of three cases where old people were stupid enough to give
>their money to the Faith while they were still alive and they were told
>essentially that that was tuff toenails
>One old lady had sense enough
>to threaten to sue to get her money back.
What does not being able to get a refund on your contribution have to do with
anything? And since when does *anyone* refund contributions?
>The other two had to catch as
>catch can and died pretty much alone with hardly anybody even willing to
>pick them up and take them to the Feast.
Yeah, they are some Baha'i communities that are pretty thoughtless when it
comes to that sort of thing.
Susan
Susan Maneck
>If we can talk about people on this list, what's wrong with talking
>about the institutions?
The Institutions aren't on this list. But I personally don't so much mind
talking about the Institutions, I just don't like people making very serious
charges against them and not being willing to substantiate them.
Susan Maneck
>If it is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time, why can't we
>teach and help the poor?
Larger communities can and do. Ever hear of Social and Economic Development
Projects? But smaller communities are probably better off helping existing
agencies.
Cal E. Rollins
Who moderates the Admins? Good question. I've never gotten an answer.
I know it's important on a national level within the American judicial
system, because the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights did a study, "Who
Judges the Judges." As I understand it, the Faith has no
checks-and-balances and the judges at the top are not subject to any
moderation except what could be called self-moderation. I'm reminded of
the considerable discussion on moderation of the sex impulse by the
Faith, one of the goals of the New World Order: Who regulates the
regulators? Great fun! --Cal
alivine
CHARITABLE GIVING BY BAHA'IS.
1) A search on google will bring up less than 5 Baha'i charities-
worldwide.
2) THE MONA FOUNDATION in the state of Washington does provide
financial charitable assistance of approx. $80,000.00 in one year.
3) THE MONA FOUNDATION tax records- available under Federal Laws-
reveal that the largest funders of this BAHA'I FOUNDATIONS ARE
CHRISTIANS: namely Bill Gates of Microsoft, and IBM. What is going on?
Why aren't Baha'is more charitable. Why not FORCE BAHA'I CORPORATIONS
such as Sunland Group, and the Universal Baha'i House of Justice to
pay A LARGER SHARE OF CHARITABLE CONTRIBUTIONS?
4) There is a known case of refund of AN EXTREMELY LARGE Baha'i
contribution BY THE UNIVERSAL HOUSE OF JUSTICE several years ago. The
Baha'i gentleman had sought to defraud the IRS, AND THE USA government
by "donating" all of his assets to UHJ, HAIFA, ISRAEL. A Federal judge
presiding over the false claim of bankruptcy made by this gentleman,
ORDERED THE UNIVERSAL HOUSE OF JUSTICE to return the entire sum of
money to the US government. THE UHJ obliged and refunded the entire
amount back to the US government.
5) While a few individual Baha'is may be involved in philantropy- the
BAHA'I ADMINISTRATION DOES NOT ENCOURAGE BAHA'IS PUBLICLY TO FUND
THEIR OWN CHARITIES. The only acceptable form of donation that will
lead to a better afterlife (paradise in other religion) for Baha'is IS
TO GENEROUSLY DONATE FUNDS AT A SACRIFICIAL LEVEL UNSEEN IN ANY OTHER
RELIGION- TO THE Baha'i institutions.
6) NO wonder the Mona Foundation is getting most of its fundings from
Christians- while the UHJ and Professor Maneck gloat about Baha'i
charities.
7)Last year, one of the board members of the Mona Foundation- an
iranian female Baha'i- donated the "largest amount to the Mona
Charity": the total sum of only $7,000.00
8)While Baha'is publish newsletters filled with charitable activities-
very few non-Baha'is have ever been made aware of such AN ACT OF
GENEROSITY- since there is really no charitable work done- only
PROPAGANDA TO ENLIST MORE PEOPLE UNDER THE FOLDS OF BAHA'ISM.
9)The ONLY BAHA'I NURSING HOME in the world- located next to the
Baha'i House of Worship in CHICAGO, ILLINOIS was closed down a couple
of years ago after more than half a century in existence. Chairman of
US NSA- Robert Henderson -son of Counsellor Wilma Ellis who married
Firuz Kazemzadeh ( who by the way has had 2 divorces) spoke of the
"PRESSING NEEDS FOR MONEY" as an excuse to close the nursing home.
10) Baha'i medical organization "health for humanity" has done very
little in recent years. IN FACT, A RECENTLY OPENED CHRISTIAN HEALTH
ORGANIZATION in Canada has taken over the name of "HEALTH FOR
HUMANITY"-please search google for the news.
11) Baha'is do HOWEVER go to churches -in order to receive assistance
for their utilities in USA. Many Babis and Baha'is practiced TAQIYYA
(dissimulation of religion) in the late 19 century Iran- by simply
attending Christian churches. THIS RUSE WAS FINALLY UNCOVERED BY THE
PRIESTS in Iran.
12) While Baha'is are not very charitable overall- in terms of
charities and money donated to those charities- the Iranian BAHA'IS
ARE EXTREMELY CLEVER WHEN IT COMES TO DEFRAUDING THE WELFARE AND
HEALTHCARE SYSTEM- refer to January 14, 2004 Los Angeles Times
regarding the arrest of Iranian Baha'i Dr. BERJIS for the LArgest
fraud committed in the history of the COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES-
population greater than 10 millions!!!
13) The Baha'i KINGDOM PROJECT has raised almost $36,000,000.00 -
where does the money go?- ANSWER: water fountains, pools, and flowers
for house of worship in CHICAGO. ----read my LIPS-- NO MONEY EVER
ALLOCATED FOR ANY FORM OF CHARITABLE ENDEAVOURS- NOT A SINGLE penny
spent for the poor, elderly, orphans, and victims of wars-natural
disasters- earthquakes- epidemics- famine.
Let them answer. IT MAY CHANGE EVERYTHING.
A>E>
baldri...@yahoo.co.uk (Baldrick) wrote in message news:<9b91a665.04030...@posting.google.com>...
Rod
> >
> >If it is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time, why can't we
> >teach and help the poor?
>
> Larger communities can and do. Ever hear of Social and Economic
Development
> Projects?
Yea.....There was one set up here....The 'Kashani Project'...the first major
Social
and Economic Development Project initiated by Australian Aboriginal Baha'is
for
the benefit of the disadvantaged- black and white..
Having pledged their support at the local, regional and national level the
Baha'i
community abandoned the project (and the people) at the first hurdle.
Even now, when all impediments to the continuation of the project have been
removed, the Baha'is show no sign of returning to fulfil the pledge and
commitment
they made. Rather they have raised expectations and given hope only to turn
and
dash both.
> But smaller communities are probably better off helping existing
> agencies.
This "smaller community" was better off when it was actually engaged in
doing
something practical for others....deeds not words...but like so much else
within
Baha'i the endeavour was sabotaged (by individuals disgruntled by the
absence
of Due Process) and the sabotage itself was left unquestioned and
unchallenged.
Shit, better to abandon an Indigenous community to whom a commitment has
been made than to conduct any form of fair and open hearing into acts of
Baha'i
sabotage, collusion and slander.
Oh........sorry.......I'm trying to explain a justice issue to a Baha'i with
her fingers
stuck in her ears...silly shrill me.
Rod.
Susan Maneck
>1) A search on google will bring up less than 5 Baha'i charities-
>worldwide.
Because you can only find five Baha'i charities on google does not mean others
do not exist. Did you check under Social and Economic Development?
I can name more than five myself. Would you like me to do so?
>3) THE MONA FOUNDATION tax records- available under Federal Laws-
>reveal that the largest funders of this BAHA'I FOUNDATIONS ARE
>CHRISTIANS: namely Bill Gates of Microsoft, and IBM. What is going on?
>Why aren't Baha'is more charitable.
The fact we don't have a Bill Gates in our community and can't out contribute
him, does not mean there is something wrong with the Baha'i community.
>Why not FORCE BAHA'I CORPORATIONS
>such as Sunland Group, and the Universal Baha'i House of Justice to
>pay A LARGER SHARE OF CHARITABLE CONTRIBUTIONS?
Why would one force *anybody* to make charitable contributions?
>A Federal judge
>presiding over the false claim of bankruptcy made by this gentleman,
>ORDERED THE UNIVERSAL HOUSE OF JUSTICE to return the entire sum of
>money to the US government.
Once again, you don't know what you are talking about and only demonstrate your
own ignorance here. The US courts would not have any jurisdiction whatsoever
over the Universal House of Justice which operates in Haifa, Israel. If the
House returned an illicit contribution, good for them. But no US court could
force them do this.
>While a few individual Baha'is may be involved in philantropy- the
>BAHA'I ADMINISTRATION DOES NOT ENCOURAGE BAHA'IS PUBLICLY TO FUND
>THEIR OWN CHARITIES.
This sentence doesn't even make sense.
>The only acceptable form of donation that will
>lead to a better afterlife (paradise in other religion) for Baha'is IS
>TO GENEROUSLY DONATE FUNDS AT A SACRIFICIAL LEVEL UNSEEN IN ANY OTHER
>RELIGION- TO THE Baha'i institutions.
I'm sorry, you weren't a Baha'i long enough to get this, but we don't do things
to insure a 'better afterlife' we do them for the love of God and for the
service of humanity.
>while the UHJ and Professor Maneck gloat about Baha'i
>charities.
Gloating? It seems to me I was merely responding to your false assertions that
Baha'is don't have any charities.
>7)Last year, one of the board members of the Mona Foundation- an
>iranian female Baha'i- donated the "largest amount to the Mona
>Charity": the total sum of only $7,000.00
I thought you said Bill Gates was their largest contributor? And what is the
last charity you donated more than $7000 to?
>While Baha'is publish newsletters filled with charitable activities-
>very few non-Baha'is have ever been made aware of such AN ACT OF
>GENEROSITY
Gee, that couldn't have anything to do with the fact that we are so small as a
religion most non-Baha'is don't even know we exist?
>PROJECT has raised almost $36,000,000.00 -
>where does the money go?- ANSWER: water fountains, pools, and flowers
>for house of worship in CHICAGO. ----read my LIPS-- NO MONEY EVER
>ALLOCATED FOR ANY FORM OF CHARITABLE ENDEAVOURS-
That's because the Kingdom Project is is a fund aimed at long delayed capital
improvements, genius, not for relief of victims of natural disasters. It's not
like this is the only fund Baha'is contribute to.
Paul Hammond
> I WOULD LIKE TO ANSWER PROFESSOR OF HISTORY : DR. MANECK REGARDING
> CHARITABLE GIVING BY BAHA'IS.
>
Are you experiencing difficulties with your CAPS LOCK key?
Baldrick
Hammond at paha...@onetel.net.uk wrote on 5/3/04 1:47 pm:
You are having dificulties with taking your head out of your khyber
Pass.
Baldrick
Michael McKenny
Susan Maneck (sma...@aol.com) writes:
>>
>>If we can talk about people on this list, what's wrong with talking
>>about the institutions?
>
> The Institutions aren't on this list. But I personally don't so much mind
> talking about the Institutions, I just don't like people making very serious
> charges against them and not being willing to substantiate them.
>
I would think you should delight in that, as it allows you to point out
such charges are unsubstantiated.
I have repeatedly asked here what the Baha'is are doing to participate
in consideration of ways and means to enhance the functioning of the UN.
Any suggestions that the Baha'i administration is doing anything at all in
this regard remain, as far as we can see here, unsubstantiated.
I suggest that the Baha'i administration start with enhancing harmony
within the Baha'i Faith, among all those who claim to be Baha'is and all
humanity to accept the priority of the awareness of the oneness of the
human species. Do not hesitate to provide substance for such a suggestion
that the reason Baha'i exists (to inculcate awareness of humanity as one
species) receives attention from the Baha'i administration.
Peace, Michael
--
"My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard."
(Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2)
Cal E. Rollins
Interesting about your SED stuff. I've not heard anything about ours
but I did read in American Baha'i Review a few years back that one of
the Mottahedeh kids was doing something in such development. Haven't
heard how it's turning out.
I don't know if you'd call the ex-stuff that went on with blacks in
South Carolina years back as SED, but it promised a whole lot but didn't
fare too well. I understand from some that things in the State have het
up again and blacks are slated to re-enter by troops due to Ruhi, the
Louis Gregory Institute, and SED but have not seen any verification. So
it goes. --Cal
Susan Maneck
>the Mottahedeh kids was doing something in such development. Haven't
>heard how it's turning out.
Dear Cal,
The Mottahedeh Development Services was founded by Rafi and Mildred Mottahdeh
themselves back in 1958 to support projects in the developing world. Each year
the foundation puts on a big conference in Florida where people come and talk
about the various SED projects they are involved in. It's a massive conference
with dozens of presenters which makes Henry's assertion that there are only
five rather ludicrous.
>I don't know if you'd call the ex-stuff that went on with blacks in
>South Carolina years back as SED, but it promised a whole lot but didn't
>fare too well. I understand from some that things in the State have het
>up again and blacks are slated to re-enter by troops due to Ruhi,
Those are teaching projects, not SEDs.
--Susan
Rod
> >
> >If we can talk about people on this list, what's wrong with talking
> >about the institutions?
>
> The Institutions aren't on this list. But I personally don't so much mind
> talking about the Institutions, I just don't like people making very
serious
> charges against them and not being willing to substantiate them.
I make the charges against the Institutions and provide substantiation.
You ignore all.
So what is the point of your objection hypocrite?
Dermod Ryder
"Baldrick" <baldri...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9b91a665.04030...@posting.google.com...
You can't distinguish one from the other.
alivine
"Baha'i charitable giving" is the portait that is actively painted by
the Baha'i Propaganda Machinery. In a recent speech by US NSA member
Robert Henderson, it was pointed out that "Baha'is are THE MOST
CHARITABLE AND GIVING PEOPLE of all world religions- as percentage of
members".
Now, where did former ~Christian pastor turned Baha'i- Chairman of US
NSA Robert Henderson get his Data? Could it be simply propaganda by
the Baha'i Machinery?
SED is a misnomer- instead it should be replaced with STD- sexually
transmitted disease.
A>E>
crol...@webtv.net (Cal E. Rollins) wrote in message news:<5123-404...@storefull-3275.bay.webtv.net>...
Rod
Cal E. Rollins <crol...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:5123-404...@storefull-3275.bay.webtv.net...
> Rod,
>
> Interesting about your SED stuff.
Not "interesting" enough to prompt any response or rebuttal from the BIGS
Cal.
(Next time incorporate my text in your reply mate...that will deny Sowzan
the
opportunity to deny she could see it through her killfile ;-)
> I've not heard anything about ours
> but I did read in American Baha'i Review a few years back that one of
> the Mottahedeh kids was doing something in such development. Haven't
> heard how it's turning out.
I joined the Baha'i faith with a great deal of hope and expectation invested
in the SED realm Cal.......I saw bloody little and what I did see was
appalling.
All the best.
Rod.
Susan Maneck
>Now, where did former ~Christian pastor turned Baha'i- Chairman of US
>NSA Robert Henderson get his Data?
LOL. Where did you get your data that Henderson was a Christian pastor before
becoming a Baha'i? He's been a Baha'i all his life! And by the way he is the
Secretary-General, not the chairman of the NSA.
Do try and get something right.
BelindaCarlyle
LOGICAL answers.
Thus far the Baha'i moderators have not been ABLE to refute LOGICALLY
my posts regarding the lack of charitable activities by the Universal
House of Justice and NSA's.
I AM STILL WAITING. Your logical- rather than your illogical sarcastic
- answers would certainly CHANGE my mind. Thus far, I have found no
convincing answers to my questions regarding charitable giving by
members of the offshoot of Islam- BEHA'ISM
A>E>
baldri...@yahoo.co.uk (Baldrick) wrote in message news:<9b91a665.04030...@posting.google.com>...
Susan Maneck
>Thus far the Baha'i moderators have not been ABLE to refute LOGICALLY
>my posts regarding the lack of charitable activities by the Universal
>House of Justice and NSA's
Ahh, now it is the House of Justice and the NSAs who don't carry out charitable
activities. Before you were saying that Baha'is weren't supposed to give to
charities and that all donations had to go to Baha'i institutions When this was
shown not to be the case, you then said there were only five charities. When
the existence of innumerable SED projects demonstrated this not to be the case.
you started saying that the the House and the NSA's have a 'lack' of
charitable activities. (An assertion so emorphous as to be non-falsifiable.
What constitutes 'enough'?
>I AM STILL WAITING. Your logical- rather than your illogical sarcastic
>- answers would certainly CHANGE my mind.
Well, maybe if you would quit shifting the question as soon as it *is*
answered, get your facts straight and take the banana out of your ear, you
might here some.
>Thus far, I have found no
>convincing answers to my questions regarding charitable giving by
>members of the offshoot of Islam- BEHA'ISM
Nothing will convince he whose eyes are blind and ears are deaf.
Paul Hammond
> Thank you Dr. maneck and Dr. Paul Hammond for your LACK-DEARTH of
> LOGICAL answers.
>
Thank you BELINDA for awarding ME my PhD.
Susan Maneck
>
>Thank you BELINDA for awarding ME my PhD.
Belinda? Wasn't that Henry?
Belinda sounds like a reasonable person. I don't think Henry could pull that
off.
Mr. Bad Judgement
BelindaCarlyle wrote:
> Thank you Dr. maneck and Dr. Paul Hammond for your LACK-DEARTH of
> LOGICAL answers.
>
It seemed that recently you were observing "I am fascinated with
Alivine's info." Now you seem to have adopted the Alivine writing style ...
> Thus far the Baha'i moderators have not been ABLE to refute LOGICALLY
> my posts regarding the lack of charitable activities by the Universal
> House of Justice and NSA's.
>
> I AM STILL WAITING. Your logical- rather than your illogical sarcastic
> - answers would certainly CHANGE my mind. Thus far, I have found no
> convincing answers to my questions regarding charitable giving by
> members of the offshoot of Islam- BEHA'ISM
> A>E>
>
... and the Alivine signature.
Let the sock puppet reply.
- Mr. Bad
Mr. Bad Judgement
Susan Maneck wrote:
>>
>>Thank you BELINDA for awarding ME my PhD.
>
>
> Belinda? Wasn't that Henry?
>
> Belinda sounds like a reasonable person. I don't think Henry could pull that
> off.
>
Some folks are just eponymous, like
Starrjobethclaudiajeremiahwhoknowshatnext.
Susan Maneck
>Some folks are just eponymous, like
>Starrjobethclaudiajeremiahwhoknowshatnext.
Claudia may have a zillion scren names, but through and through she maintains
Star's immitiable persona. Belinda, on the other hand, seemed like a
reasonable person which Henry definitely is not.
Maybe he has a multiple personality.
warmest, Susan
alivine
namely Belinda?
I am male --signature A>E>. Now who on earth switched my post under
Belinda?
I DO NOT TAKE IT LIGHTLY when the Baha'i moderators including KOSS KEH
Kohli or Hamnond -THE MISSING LEFT NUT MAN- delete and switch the name
of posters.
The post above is mine- ALIVINE A>E>. Would you kindly stop sabotaging
my replies- and discrediting others when in fact it is MY POST AND MY
SIGNATURE.
If this activity by the Baha'i moderators IS NOT RECTIFIED BY MY NEXT
POST (i.e. should it reccur), I will need to take the whole matter of
dishonestly deleting or switching posters name to GOOGLE GROUPS
administrators.
Ptofessor Maneck, I TRUST THAT YOU WILL SEE THAT NONE OF YOUR BAHA'I
COLLABORATORS EVER SWITCH THE POSTER'S NAME- OR delete the poster's
name.
A>E>
"Mr. Bad Judgement" <kohliCUT...@ameritel.net> wrote in message news:<c2fbr1$1rjva2$2...@ID-75487.news.uni-berlin.de>...
Susan Maneck
> I will need to take the whole matter of
>dishonestly deleting or switching posters name to GOOGLE GROUPS
>administrators.
You do that, Tad. I'm sure it will give them a good laugh.
>Ptofessor Maneck, I TRUST THAT YOU WILL SEE THAT NONE OF YOUR BAHA'I
>COLLABORATORS EVER SWITCH THE POSTER'S NAME- OR delete the poster's
>name.
LOL. I'd want to know how they did it.
What you are describing, Henry, just can't be done. If we could delete or
switch posters names we would be deleting certain posts entirely rather than
playing this silly game.
Believe it or not, Tad, this the talk newsgroups are unmoderated forum and no
one is given the tools to delete or change anything. If it were moderated by
anyone it would be Fred Glaysher and Ron House. TRB is their baby.
- Susan
Mr. Bad Judgement
alivine wrote:
> HOW DID MY MESSAGE AND MY SIGNATURE GET POSTED under another poster-
> namely Belinda?
>
Belinda is you. You posted under the Belinda handle, apparently
forgetting which personality you were at the time. Here is the Belinda
header:
xxxxx header of Alivine's sock puppet "Belinda" xxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Public discussion of corruption in Baha'i institutions
From: rn199...@yahoo.com (BelindaCarlyle)
Date: 6 Mar 2004 21:28:05 -0800
Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai
Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai
Organization: http://groups.google.com
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <3f077792.04030...@posting.google.com>
References: <9b91a665.04030...@posting.google.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.188.233.187
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: posting.google.com 1078637286 8420 127.0.0.1 (7 Mar 2004
05:28:06 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: groups...@google.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 05:28:06 +0000 (UTC)
Xref: uni-berlin.de talk.religion.bahai:96187
Thank you Dr. maneck and Dr. Paul Hammond for your LACK-DEARTH of
LOGICAL answers. (snip)
xxxxxxxxx end header of Alivine's sock puppet xxxxxxx
Note the NNTP posting host, that is the IP number you had when you
logged on to google:
NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.188.233.187
> I am male
Irrelevant whether you are male this moment and female that moment, or
female all the time and posing, etc.
> --signature A>E>. Now who on earth switched my post under
> Belinda?
Nobdy switched anything, but you. You posted as Belinda, and you posted
as Alivine. It wouldn't have been so funny if you had not pretended to
be different people. Susan still likes the other you, BTW.
I know you are the same people because here is your header, from the
message I'm replying to:
xxxxx header of Belinda's sock puppet "Alivine" xxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Public discussion of corruption in Baha'i institutions
From: avicenn...@yahoo.com (alivine)
Date: 7 Mar 2004 12:21:37 -0800
Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai
Path:
uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!postnews2.google.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai
Organization: http://groups.google.com
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <77dd8f00.0403...@posting.google.com>
References: <9b91a665.04030...@posting.google.com>
<3f077792.04030...@posting.google.com>
<c2fbr1$1rjva2$2...@ID-75487.news.uni-berlin.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.188.233.187
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: posting.google.com 1078690897 31649 127.0.0.1 (7 Mar 2004
20:21:37 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: groups...@google.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 20:21:37 +0000 (UTC)
Xref: uni-berlin.de talk.religion.bahai:96258
HOW DID MY MESSAGE AND MY SIGNATURE GET POSTED under another poster-
namely Belinda? (snip)
xxxxxxxxx end header of "Alivine" sock puppet xxxxxxx
Note again that NNTP posting host:
NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.188.233.187
It's the same one from the Belinda post. Looking back at that Belinda
post, we also see reference to the moderators:
"the Baha'i moderators have not been ABLE to refute LOGICALLY"
- Belinda
and you also refer to moderators:
"I DO NOT TAKE IT LIGHTLY when the Baha'i moderators including"
- AlIvIne
Everyone else knows ThEre ArE nO mOderAtorS on TrB. If you are not
Alivine yourself, than Alivine is living under your roof with you,
Belinda, and I suggest the both of you wise up.
(pseudo psycho rant snipped)
Let the clean sock puppet reply.
- Mr. Bad
Paul Hammond
:-) - Fancy putting so much effort into an alternative
persona, and then blowing it before it even properly
debuts.
Still, if he carries on talking more like Belinda, and
less like green-ink alien conspiracy theorist, we might
get more out of him than just mindless insults and
baseless accusations in eye-ripping RANDcaps.
Paul
Mr. Bad Judgement
Paul Hammond wrote:
Even funnier, the Alivine wanted to argue with me that someone had
forged its signature into the Belinda's message.
- Mr. Bad
Rod
> Maybe he has a multiple personality.
'One' would be 'one up' on you Susan.
Susan Maneck
>be different people. Susan still likes the other you, BTW.
Yep. I'm hoping she'll come out to play and leave Henry at home permanently.
But what I really want is Harry Duran back. And not in that crazy Pope Pious
Catholic persona, either.
alivine
finally we are all able to agree with the AO MOLE.
Now, YOU KOSS KESH KOHLI, PAUL- THE MISSING LEFT NUT MAN, AND [PRF.
MAANECK deny snooping- then YOU ALL MUST take back your denial as YOU
HAVE clearly demonstrated to ME YOUR SNOOPING activities on behalf of
UHJ, and the UN-BAHA'I SECRET SERVICE.
HERE IS THE PROOF THAT NIMA, FRED, AND DR. COLE have always talked
about- but could not point out those SPIRITUAL WHORES UNTIL TODAY:
"Mr. Bad Judgement" <kohliCUT...@ameritel.net> wrote in message news:<c2gjgj$1sd1kc$1...@ID-75487.news.uni-berlin.de>...
Paul Hammond
> finally we are all able to agree with the AO MOLE.
>
> Now, YOU KOSS KESH KOHLI, PAUL- THE MISSING LEFT NUT MAN, AND [PRF.
> MAANECK deny snooping- then YOU ALL MUST take back your denial as YOU
> HAVE clearly demonstrated to ME YOUR SNOOPING activities on behalf of
> UHJ, and the UN-BAHA'I SECRET SERVICE.
>
> HERE IS THE PROOF THAT NIMA, FRED, AND DR. COLE have always talked
> about- but could not point out those SPIRITUAL WHORES UNTIL TODAY:
>
You posted your letter, under the name of BelindaCarlisle
(one of your favourite singers perhaps?) RIGHT HERE ON
PUBLIC TRB.
You wanna say there is something wrong with my reading your
messages here now?
Go right ahead, green ink conspiracy man!
Mr. Bad Judgement
Paul Hammond wrote:
> avicenn...@yahoo.com (alivine) wrote in message news:<77dd8f00.04030...@posting.google.com>...
>
>>Thank you KOSS KESH KOHLI for EXPOSING YOUR SNOOPING ACTIVITIES-
>>finally we are all able to agree with the AO MOLE.
>>
>>Now, YOU KOSS KESH KOHLI, PAUL- THE MISSING LEFT NUT MAN, AND [PRF.
>>MAANECK deny snooping- then YOU ALL MUST take back your denial as YOU
>>HAVE clearly demonstrated to ME YOUR SNOOPING activities on behalf of
>>UHJ, and the UN-BAHA'I SECRET SERVICE.
>>
>>HERE IS THE PROOF THAT NIMA, FRED, AND DR. COLE have always talked
>>about- but could not point out those SPIRITUAL WHORES UNTIL TODAY:
>>
>
>
> You posted your letter, under the name of BelindaCarlisle
> (one of your favourite singers perhaps?) RIGHT HERE ON
> PUBLIC TRB.
>
Too much credit, Alivine's ventriloquist posted as "BelindaCarlyle".
(snip)
- Mr. Bad
Jeremiah
Is this what you mean?:
From: QisQos (Qis...@aol.com)
Subject: Revolutionary Committees: Re: High Treason vs. Religious
Freedom
View: Complete Thread (3 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai
Date: 2003-05-20 10:29:00 PST
Mr. Burns:
Bahullah had next to nothing to do with the decline of monarchy in
Europe, Freemasonry did. And as I have said before, Bahullah's ideas
appear taken right from the pen of Rousseau and put into a mahometan
context: as such the bahaist movement appears nothing more than a
feemasonically inspired colonialist movement implanted by European
agents to undermine the authority of the Shah and the Sultan.
Which crowns survived? The Freemasonic one of course: Victoria. the
Crowns that resisted the ideas of Rousseau and the Revolution were of
course deposed: Hapsburg, Napoleon III, Romanov. Those states which
are based on freemasonic principles survived - the US, and those
"elected by the people". However, there still is a Pope, seems like
bahullah's little missive had no effect there, its appearance is only
circumstantial and not causitive.
Of course when we see the words "the people" one must assume that it
is a freemasonic idealism - whether it is clad in terms of the French
Revolution, the Communist Revolution, the American Revolution, or even
bahaism, the basic anti-authoritarian principle has been and remains
freemasonic and luciferian in origin ..."Non serviam" Jeremiah 2:20.
Bahullah was nothing more and nothing less than a freemasonic puppet,
inspired by the early masonic idealism of the Babbies, and their zeal
for government by committee along masonic lines of revolution.
Don't kid yourself - Bahullah's tablets are nothing more than
revolutionary manifestos promulgating the reign of man and the
deposing of all religious authority other than that deemed necessary
by the committees of men. In fact your religion is the ideal
ecumenical freemasonic religion, replete with committees: from the UHJ
on down. And even the Guardian was done away with, can't have a
troublesome autocrat dispensing infallible interpretation, it might
overrule the committee. Wasn't the name of the alleged second guardian
of your religion "Mason" Remy? Did his overthrow signify a shift from
revolutionary French Grand Orient Freemasonry to the more insidious
Scottish Rite of the Maxwells?
http://bahai-library.org/books/biblio/antibahai.polemic.html
A quote of Abdul baha used in freemasonic context:
<<The Freemason who does these things will bring upon himself
fraternal joy. As substantial in fact as it is in ethereal quality, as
real in his own heart as it is intangible to the profane world.
In the context of such philosophy and in the light of the happenings
in our world today, let me conclude with two sentences from the
writings of Abdul-baha on page 276.
"If only the darksome dust of this continual fighting and killing
could settle forever and the sweet winds of God's loving kindness
could blow from the wellspring of peace, then would this world become
another world and the earth would shine with the light of her Lord".>>
And Manly P. Hall pays homage to Abdul Baha's freemasonic idealism:
"neither carpenter nor camel-driver, as Abdul Baha might have said,
can fashion a world religion from the substances of his own mind.
Neither prophet nor savior preached a doctrine which was his own, but
in language suitable to his time and race retold that Ancient Wisdom
preserved within the Mysteries since the dawning of human
consciousness. So with the Masonic Mysteries of today. "
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/2216/clsctexts/Rosicrucian_Masonic.htm
Obviously the freemasons acknowledge common cause with the bahaists.
In fact if you look at early bahaist history, the theosophical society
hosted Abdul baha as did masonic lodges - while the connection in that
case may appear circumstantial it does point out no small degree of
early collaboration between the theosophical ideas of Abdul and those
of Blavatsky and the Freemasons.
Of Course Abdul baha's admiration for the ILLUMINATI is noted in Paris
Talks p. 175, the Immuninati being that most ancient of the luciferian
sects.
Need we go on about the luciferian origins of bahaism? Is it not
enough that Abdul Baha ascribes to the ideals of the ILLUMINATI, and
that the Freemasons find common cause with his luciferian teachings?
Do they not come from a common source ?
Freemasonry is the enemy of the Catholic church and God as described
in the Papal Encyclical "Humanum Genus" of Pope Leo XIII
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13human.htm
and I would say by extension, so are the principles of bahaism which
share no small part of masonic inspiration, ideals and support.
But despite the attacks of the Freemason-Illuminati, and bahallah's
screed to Pope Pius IX, there still is a Pope in Rome, fancy that.
bahullah's revolutionary tablets had no impact there. Furthermore
Roman catholicism is the largest and fastest growing religion on Earth
- contrary to the exaggerated claims of bahaists.
Now the war with the Serpent has reached a fever pitch with so many
souls being lost to the Devil by following the false prophets foretold
in the Gospels: Matthew 24:24, but this has been prophesied, as has
the persection of the Church. So what were Bahullah's tablets but the
hum of another satanic voice among the legion which have attacked the
Church over the past 500 years? The manifesto of bahullah was trivial
in comparison to the attacks on the Papacy in Italy which preceded
bahullah's small note to the Pope. It cannot therefor be said that
bahaullah's manifesto had anything to do with the fortunes of the
Hapsburgs, the Bourbons or the Papacy since the attacks on Crown and
Tiara by the secular humanist movements of Europe had been going on
well before Husayn Ali was a twinkle in the eye of Mirza Boozorg. It
can however be hypothesized that the son of Mirza Boozorg got his
ideas from the French revolution - Rousseau, Voltaire and the
Freemasons- since the latter precedes the former. Since of course
bahullah's "Tablet" to the Pope was written around the time of Victor
Emmanuel's agression on the vatican, it can only be said that the
timing is coincidental and not causitive. Did Victor Emmanual receive
any inspiration from Bahullah? Nope!
Maybe you would also like to claim bahullah was responsible for the
downfall of the Pharaohs and the extinction of the dinosaurs?
Here is a great book you may want to read and learn some history and
get some perspective other than the freemasonic history you were
taught in public schools:
Triumph: the Power and the Glory of The Catholic Church H.W. Crocker
III
Christus Regnat!
QisQos
"Randy Burns" <randy....@gte.net> wrote in message news:<PBhya.4843$Ov2...@nwrddc04.gnilink.net>...
> Gee, Criss-Cross, what has happened to all of your Catholic Kings? Since
> Baha'u'llah wrote them all those 'nasty' letters they have been dieing off
> in twos and threes. If the Romanish Church loved it's Catholic Kings, why
> oh why didn't the Romanish Pope save them from destruction? Could it be
> that the Romans have lost all their Godly Power?
>
> Cheers, Randy
Susan Maneck
>> But what I really want is Harry Duran back.
>
>Is this what you mean?:
No, not in his Qis Qos persona. I'd like him back as Corax.
Paul Hammond
You're an idiot. Does Nima know how much of an idiot you are?
Wasn't it you, earlier, who was accusing Susan of making
your posts disappear, because you didn't read the google
blurb about how it takes 3-6 hours for new posts to
appear here? Or was that just someone as stupid as you
are?
Paul
avicenn...@yahoo.com (alivine) wrote in message news:<77dd8f00.0403...@posting.google.com>...
> HOW DID MY MESSAGE AND MY SIGNATURE GET POSTED under another poster-
> namely Belinda?
>
Because you forgot who you were pretending to be that day!
> I am male --signature A>E>. Now who on earth switched my post under
> Belinda?
>
You did. You forgot you were posting as Belinda, and
instead posted as yourself. Very stupid to give
yourself away before you even start playing.
> I DO NOT TAKE IT LIGHTLY when the Baha'i moderators including KOSS KEH
> Kohli or Hamnond -THE MISSING LEFT NUT MAN- delete and switch the name
> of posters.
>
Do you actually know anything about how usenet works?
There are usenet groups for newbies to ask questions you
know - some techie could explain it all to you perhaps.
> The post above is mine- ALIVINE A>E>. Would you kindly stop sabotaging
> my replies- and discrediting others when in fact it is MY POST AND MY
> SIGNATURE.
>
We know it is you. That is how we can tell that you either
*are* BelindaCarlyle, or you know her well enough in real
life to post from her computer, and her internet account.
> If this activity by the Baha'i moderators IS NOT RECTIFIED BY MY NEXT
> POST (i.e. should it reccur), I will need to take the whole matter of
> dishonestly deleting or switching posters name to GOOGLE GROUPS
> administrators.
>
Go ahead and write to them right now. They will also be able to
explain to you how usenet works.
They might find your actions a bit suspicious, although
pretending to be someone else on the internet isn't
actually a crime.
> Ptofessor Maneck, I TRUST THAT YOU WILL SEE THAT NONE OF YOUR BAHA'I
> COLLABORATORS EVER SWITCH THE POSTER'S NAME- OR delete the poster's
> name.
> A>E>
>
And, you'll stop posting wild accusations of rape, and
start posting as your nicer, Belinda personality?
Just getting that caps lock key fixed would be a start, Tad.
Paul
Paul Hammond
Just to make this perfectly clear - doesn't the fact that
the NNTP-Posting-Host numbers are identical mean that
these messages actually came from exactly the same
computer?
Paul
Susan Maneck
>Just to make this perfectly clear - doesn't the fact that
>the NNTP-Posting-Host numbers are identical mean that
>these messages actually came from exactly the same
>computer?
Yup, yup.
Mr. Bad Judgement
Paul Hammond wrote:
Actually, in and of itself, it does not. Some ISPs have less IP
addresses than they have customers, so they reassign IP addresses to
different customers. One of the problems of IPv4 is that it only has
about 4 billion addresses (2^32), because it uses a 32 bit number, often
expressed as four octets.
When you factor in interest in the Baha'i Faith, the odds go up from one
in four billion, to one in a zillion that this is not the same computer
or internet account. However, when you factor in the expressed
assumption that there are moderators on TRB, and capLOCKs, the odds go
from one in a zillion of this not being a match, to a lock cinch, but
you are the Mathman, and you can probably sort through the microscopic
probabilities better than me.
- Mr. Bad
Steve Marshall
>Just to make this perfectly clear - doesn't the fact that
>the NNTP-Posting-Host numbers are identical mean that
>these messages actually came from exactly the same
>computer?
Yes, provided the person has a fixed IP address, and provided they
haven't set up several PCs to use the same address (unlikely).
If someone is on dynamic IP, they typically use a range of addresses
within a narrow netblock: 66.227.153.0 through to 66.227.153.255, for
example.
Anyway, it looks like this person does have a fixed IP and lives in or
near Bay City, Michigan, USA, and uses Charter
<http://www.charter.net/> for their Internet service. But I could be
wrong.
ka kite
Steve
Freethought110
> the NNTP-Posting-Host numbers are identical mean that
> these messages actually came from exactly the same
> computer?
That's what he said. She' staying at his house. You need a thicker
lens of glasses, Palu. Ask your employers at Haifa and London for a
better health plan :)
Freethought110
Right <grin>. And several posts ago you were saying I was his
ventriloquist, or have you backtracked on that already and forgotten
you ever said it, eh KKKholi?
> (snip)
>
> - Mr. Bad
Paul Hammond
He wasn't accusing you of inventing a sock-puppet called
Henry Tad. He was talking about something else entirely.
Are you *this* poor at understanding a text when you
study history too, Chickenshit?
One of your lieutenants makes a massive cock-up in his
attempt to play web games with us, and this is your
pathetic attempt to smoke screen the issue?
Carry on fasting!
Paul
Paul Hammond
I think you'd better check then. He got his story wrong. His
post appeared under her name, so he would have to be staying
at her house.
But, there are not two different *computers*, as the identical
NNTP-hosting addresses proves - EVERY message
from BelindaCarlyle comes from the SAME computer as
EVERY message from Tad.
You need a thicker pair of glasses, Chickenshit, as
well as a better training of your lieutenents in these
kind of internet headgames.
Even if Belinda really is a seperate person from Tad,
the fact that they are currently living together makes
the idea that Belinda finds Tad's wild accusations
"interesting" somewhat less remarkable, don't you
think?
Either way, your boy has shot himself in the foot and
should now limp from the battleground defeated.
Talking of internet strategems, isn't Dermod's 24 hours
up? Are you going to make good on your threat to
publish his private correspondence with you here, thus
proving that you cannot ever be trusted not to stab your
friends in the back?
Or are you chickening out of that threat too?
Do, do, do the Holy Chicken!
Paul
Paul Hammond
Your full-strenght nerd glasses apparently missed this from
me yesterday:
> The post above is mine- ALIVINE A>E>. Would you kindly stop sabotaging
> my replies- and discrediting others when in fact it is MY POST AND MY
> SIGNATURE.
>
We know it is you. That is how we can tell that you either
*are* BelindaCarlyle, or you know her well enough in real
life to post from her computer, and her internet account.
---
Unlike you and your cronies, I don't make claims without
evidence, and I don't claim more than the evidence can
bear.
Perhaps you'd like to comment on Tad's idea that there
are "moderators" on this group who can somehow make
his posts disappear (which never happened), or can
somehow doctor the headers on internet messages to
make it *appear* that BelindaCarlyle is posting
as Tad.
And you could comment on the contradiction between
this conspiracy theory, and Tad's other attempt to
explain this boob of his away, by admitting that
Belinda was posting from his lap top (which, incidentally,
is an excuse that also gets it wrong).
The idiot around here is Tad - but of course, you are
blind to the idiocies of anyone you think you can
use.
let the Holy Chicken reply!
Paul
Susan Maneck
>Talking of internet strategems, isn't Dermod's 24 hours
>up? Are you going to make good on your threat to
>publish his private correspondence with you here
Goody, goody. I want to see it.
Mr. Bad Judgement
Susan Maneck wrote:
>>Talking of internet strategems, isn't Dermod's 24 hours
>>up? Are you going to make good on your threat to
>>publish his private correspondence with you here
>
>
> Goody, goody. I want to see it.
>
Me too.
...
Awe shucks, my tax time is up, and I don't see my tax collectors, yet.
Promises, promises, promises.
- Mr. Bad
Paul Hammond
> >
> >Talking of internet strategems, isn't Dermod's 24 hours
> >up? Are you going to make good on your threat to
> >publish his private correspondence with you here
>
> Goody, goody. I want to see it.
>
Nah - we're another 24 hours on. The Holy Chicken has
chickened out again.
None of his threats have any substance to them.
I bet he doesn't even know any Tongans.
Paul
Freethought110
> freetho...@yahoo.com (Freethought110) wrote in message news:<83b59396.04030...@posting.google.com>...
> > "Mr. Bad Judgement" <kohliCUT...@ameritel.net> wrote in message news:<c2j143$1tqdum$4...@ID-75487.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> > > Paul Hammond wrote:
> > >
> > > > avicenn...@yahoo.com (alivine) wrote in message news:<77dd8f00.04030...@posting.google.com>...
> > > >
> > > >>Thank you KOSS KESH KOHLI for EXPOSING YOUR SNOOPING ACTIVITIES-
> > > >>finally we are all able to agree with the AO MOLE.
> > > >>
> > > >>Now, YOU KOSS KESH KOHLI, PAUL- THE MISSING LEFT NUT MAN, AND [PRF.
> > > >>MAANECK deny snooping- then YOU ALL MUST take back your denial as YOU
> > > >>HAVE clearly demonstrated to ME YOUR SNOOPING activities on behalf of
> > > >>UHJ, and the UN-BAHA'I SECRET SERVICE.
> > > >>
> > > >>HERE IS THE PROOF THAT NIMA, FRED, AND DR. COLE have always talked
> > > >>about- but could not point out those SPIRITUAL WHORES UNTIL TODAY:
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > You posted your letter, under the name of BelindaCarlisle
> > > > (one of your favourite singers perhaps?) RIGHT HERE ON
> > > > PUBLIC TRB.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Too much credit, Alivine's ventriloquist posted as "BelindaCarlyle".
> >
> > Right <grin>. And several posts ago you were saying I was his
> > ventriloquist, or have you backtracked on that already and forgotten
> > you ever said it, eh KKKholi?
> >
>
> He wasn't accusing you of inventing a sock-puppet called
> Henry Tad. He was talking about something else entirely.
>
> Are you *this* poor at understanding a text when you
> study history too,
Duh! Go read where he accused me of being his sock-puppet where your
beloved Dr Maniac is concerned. Get those glasses changed, for fecks
sake. You're going blind from all that wanking ;-)
Paul Hammond
My reading is accurate.
It the fuckwittery of your lieutanents contagious, perhaps?
Freethought110
> My reading is accurate.
And Hitler was a Jew.
Paul Hammond
>
> > My reading is accurate.
>
> And Hitler was a Jew.
You've mentioned Hitler! That means I win!!!
Do, do, do the Holy Chicken.
Paul
Freethought110
> freetho...@yahoo.com (Freethought110) wrote in message news:<83b59396.04031...@posting.google.com>...
> > paha...@onetel.net.uk (Paul Hammond) wrote in message
> >
> > > My reading is accurate.
> >
> > And Hitler was a Jew.
>
> You've mentioned Hitler! That means I win!!!
How? It means you LOSE.