Questions to Ex Bahais Who Became Atheists/Agnostics
Mr Mahdi
I would like ex bahais here who became atheists or agnostics to explain why. I
would like to know if bahaism made you not only disbelieve in bahaism but God,
and tell me why and how.
Mahdi Muhammad
QisQos
You failed to respond to my reply that Uthman, not Mahomet , put the
Koran into text and compiled it. You failed to respond that the
version Ali compiled was rejected! How can this be if Ali was the true
heir of Mahomet?
Now, I could use your false reasoning that they teach you at Madrassa
and say that this "proves" that you admit the Koran is man made.
However, I am not going to do this, because it is a logical fallacy.
However, why are you shifting topics and not answering the Christian
challenge to your preaching?
By the way, you use the word "prove" and "proof" a lot. What exactly
consyitutes a "proof"? You will find that using sound logic, and I
refer you to the mahometan philosopher Ibn Rushd and Ibn Tufail, that
"proof" is very rigorous and really only can be demonstrated
DEDUCTIVELY. Inductive demonstration is not truly proof. And your type
of false conclusions and conjectures are not even remotely close.
But how can you "prove" that Mahomet actually said the words you have
in your Koran? How do you know that it was not all made up by Uthman
after Mahomet died so that the Bani Ummayah could take control of
Mahommetanism? How do we know that Aisha told the truth in the
hadiths? Abu Huraira - how do we know he actually said any of those
words? Can you "prove" it?
;-)
QisQos
mrm...@aol.com (Mr Mahdi) wrote in message news:<20030511233344...@mb-m17.aol.com>...
Cal E. Rollins
Thanks for keep Mahdi on the subject. My question to him is: Based on
what we see in the media and in studies on Islam, including information
on the life of Muhammad, why is there so much sexual abuse of children?
Does Muhammad set the pattern for this? In the West such abuse seems
to be an aberration, but in Islam it seems to be the norm. Is it
because Muslims consider children mature earlier in the Middle East? Or
there are so many of their children that they don't want to waste them
so have sex with them? Or the religion doesn't care about their
welfare? Or what? Don't you think, Mahdi, that Islam has got to clean
up its act in regard to your treatment of children before civilized
people (a few of them Christians) will be interested in communicating
with Muslims on any kind of level other than war against them? --Cal
Mr Mahdi
exposed the Bible and christian evil and how white Christians used Christianity
as a tool of hate and intolerance, this devil said I changed the subject!
He still has a ton of questions he needs to respond to before he would even
dare to say I am changing the subject. He lacks knowledge and the only
knowledge he gets are not anti Islam websites, which of course distort facts to
suit their agenda. Like for example, his distorted view of the Reconquista. I
proved to him that the devils not only killed Muslims but Christians and Jews
who refused to convert or leave Spain. Of course, he was silent on that. But
this is typical of white Christian supremist devils, who are known for the
hypocrisy.
Oh well, let me answer the racist in his latest rant:
>You failed to respond to my reply that Uthman, not Mahomet , put the
>Koran into text and compiled it.
I already did. It is either you failed to read my response or you read it but
thought rehashing your question would make a difference. Go back to the thread
and reread the posts.
The text of the Quran was completed during the time of the Prophet. Many
muslims memorized the whole Quran and several of them had copies of the Quran
they compiled them. The first one to order the Quran be compiled in one book
was Abu Bakr, not Uthman. It was Uthman who used the Quran compiled by Abu
Bakr to come up with a standardized issue. The Muslims made sure that the
Quran that was being standardized did not leave out or add anything that wasn't
revealed to Muhammad (saaws). So the text was ALWAYS PRESERVED, unlike the
Bible.
>How can this be if Ali was the true
>heir of Mahomet?
>
You lack basic understanding of Islam. The Shi`ah believes that Ali (ra) was
to get the Caliphate after Muhammad (saaws). The Shi`ah are a minority group
in Islam. 90% of Muslims are not Shi`ah.
Plus, it was other Companions' copies of the Quran that were more famous, and
yet you focus on Ali. I am suprised you didn't say anything about Ibn `Abbas
or ibn Mas`ud or Ubay ibn Ka`b (ra). You went straight to Ali (ra) as if you
knew what his copy of the Quran was! You surely did not do your research.
>However, why are you shifting topics and not answering the Christian
>challenge to your preaching?
The pot calling the kettle black. It is you that cannot even prove to your own
scholars of the Bible that Christianity is an intellectual challenge. I
already answered your nonsense, but you haven't mine. I already proved that
the NT was never written let alone compiled during the lifetime of Jesus (as).
I asked you many questions, one of them being what criterion did your scholars
use to determine what text was from God or not when they were never there
during the time of Jesus to witness anything. This is unlike how the Quran was
compiled because Muslims who lived during the time of Muhammad (saaws) knew the
whole text of the Quran and made sure that the Quran contained every letter and
word and nothing was added or omitted. So once again, your attempt to compare
Quran with Bible fails.
And even IF the Quran was compiled the same way the Bible was, you are using
circular reasoning! In other words, your reasoning is that if the Bible was
compiled 300 years after Jesus and written 100 years after Jesus, that proves
the Bible to be from God because the Quran was compiled after Muhammad (saaws).
A logical fallacy indeed based on complete circular reasoning.
Mahdi Muhammad
QisQos
> He still has a ton of questions he needs to respond to before he would even
> dare to say I am changing the subject. He lacks knowledge and the only
> knowledge he gets are not anti Islam websites, which of course distort facts to
> suit their agenda. Like for example, his distorted view of the Reconquista. I
> proved to him that the devils not only killed Muslims but Christians and Jews
> who refused to convert or leave Spain. Of course, he was silent on that.
I gave you the factual information about the Reconquista, hence no
firther response was necessary.
SNIP
>
> >You failed to respond to my reply that Uthman, not Mahomet , put the
> >Koran into text and compiled it.
SNIP
>
> The text of the Quran was completed during the time of the Prophet. Many
> muslims memorized the whole Quran
So you admit Mahomet did not compile or write the Koran, and that the
version was from the memories of his adherents.
>and several of them had copies of the Quran
> they compiled them. The first one to order the Quran be compiled in one book
> was Abu Bakr, not Uthman. It was Uthman who used the Quran compiled by Abu
> Bakr to come up with a standardized issue.
And what is the source of this information? Hadiths perhaps? And then
these were compiled generations after the death of Mahomet weren't
they? And only those hadiths which fit the party line were accepted,
correct?
>The Muslims made sure that the
> Quran that was being standardized did not leave out or add anything that wasn't
> revealed to Muhammad (saaws). So the text was ALWAYS PRESERVED,
Where is the original "preserved" copy then?
SNIP
>
> >How can this be if Ali was the true
> >heir of Mahomet?
> >
>
> You lack basic understanding of Islam. The Shi`ah believes that Ali (ra) was
> to get the Caliphate after Muhammad (saaws). The Shi`ah are a minority group
> in Islam.
So your god conducts his business by the vote of his creatires?
>90% of Muslims are not Shi`ah.
>
> Plus, it was other Companions' copies of the Quran that were more famous, and
> yet you focus on Ali.
So your god is a respecter of fame, not truth?
SNIP
> I already answered your nonsense, but you haven't mine.
So you openly admit what you are telling us is nonsense by your above
words.
Have a good day Mr. Mahdi
QisQos
QisQos
By the way Mr. mahdi:
the lie of dhimmah is being exposed by scholars like Dr. Bat Yeor
http://mypage.bluewin.ch/ameland/CV.html
Rather than the romanticized materials popularized by bernard Lewis,
Bat Yeor writes extensively on the way mahometan jihad and dhiima
oppressed the Christians and Jews of their domains.
She also writes how "Muslim" lands are frequentlt torn by internal
upheavals like the one current between the wahabis and moderates:
similar conditions prevailed in Spain.
"Past is Prologue: The Challenge of Islamism Today. An Historical
Overview of the Persecutions of Christians under Islam".
Congressional Testimony at United States Senate Foreign Relations
Committee.
Subcommittee on Near Eastern and South Asian Affairs.
Hearing on Religious Persecution in the Middle East. (Congressional
Records Testimony on May 1, 1997)
She also gave testimony on the problem of Mahometanism as a threat to
western culture, minority peoples and international stability.
You may want to see just how your religion and its fanatical basis is
being exposed and how romanticists like Bernard Lewis are no longer
being taken seriously. http://mypage.bluewin.ch/ameland/New.html
NEMO418
> Since so many people are leaving bahaism, even more leaving it than joining >it,
> I would like ex bahais here who became atheists or agnostics to explain why.
The light of modern historical investigation and analysis increasingly
disproves the mythos of the Abrahamic religions and those based on it.
None of the scriptures of either of the religions is historical or
situated in historical fact. Scholarship is casting doubt on the
existence of many of the central figures of these religions. Since
this is so, it follows that baha'ism which bases itself upon the basic
axioms of the latter is false. Whether an ultimate source of being
exists or not cannot be proven either way.
Mr Mahdi
>situated in historical fact.
It interesting you say that because the Quran confirms several factual
incidents that were previously thought to be myths, like the story of Iram and
the people of `Ad
(http://islamicity.com/science/QuranAndScience/destruction/GeneratedFilesn
oframe/ThePeopleof145AdandUbartheAtlantisoftheSands.htm ).
The Quran also amazingly correct the historical errors in the Bible, such as
the one where the Bible called the king during the time of Joseph "Pharaoh"
when the title didn't exist during the time. Of course, the Quran being from
God corrected this error:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/josephdetail.html .
And who could forget the story of Noah and Pharaoh's magicians where the Quran
once again corrected the scientific errors in the Bible in regard to these
stories.
So to say that none of the scriptures is historical or stated in historical
fact is not at all accurate.
Mahdi Muhammad
Denis Giron
> >None of the scriptures of either of the religions is historical or
> >situated in historical fact.
>
> It interesting you say that because the Quran confirms several factual
> incidents that were previously thought to be myths, like the story of Iram and
> the people of `Ad
> (http://islamicity.com/science/QuranAndScience/destruction/GeneratedFilesnoframe/ThePeopleof145AdandUbartheAtlantisoftheSands.htm ).
The link above itself notes that stories about Ad exited in "oral
stories of Bedouins," thus I don't see how amazing it is that the
Qur'an makes vague reference to an ancient city on the Arabian
peninsula (something roughly similar could be said about Iram). I
mean, is it amazing that Genesis mentions Soddom and Gamorrah, and
these cities really did exist? Of course not...
> And who could forget the story of Noah and Pharaoh's magicians where the Quran
> once again corrected the scientific errors in the Bible in regard to these
> stories.
Mahdi is being deliberately vague. The issue with Noah is that
allegedly, the Bible has a global flood, while the Qur'an has a local
flood. Of course, the reality is that this boils down to a matter of
interpretation, as there have been Christians who interpreted the
Biblical flood as local, and Muslims who have interpreted the Qur'anic
flood as global. So Mahdi can't say that the Qur'an is superior to the
Bible in this instance, but rather that *HIS INTERPRETATION* of the
Qur'an is superior to *HIS INTERPRETATION* of the Bible, and
considering that these interpretations are coming from a Muslim, one
might think this is motivated by bias.
As for the Pharaoh's magicians bit, Mahdi is again being vague. The
issue here is that the Bible, under Mahdi's interpretation of an
English translation of Exodus, has Pharaoh's magicians really turning
a stick into a snake, while the Qur'an has them only using sleight of
hand. Of course the reality is that one does not have to hold to
Mahdi's interpretation of Exodus; Christians have interpreted the
Biblical version as making reference to sleight of hand, and such
interpretations (for example, that of Ambrosiaster) are even
pre-Islamic! For more information on this, consider the following
site:
http://freethoughtmecca.org/chartumim.html
> So to say that none of the scriptures is historical or stated in historical
> fact is not at all accurate.
Of course most of what Mahdi wrote served as a red herring. What Nemo
actually wrote was the following:
"None of the scriptures of either of the religions is historical or
situated in historical fact. Scholarship is casting doubt on the
existence of many of the central figures of these religions. Since
this is so, it follows that baha'ism which bases itself upon the basic
axioms of the latter is false. Whether an ultimate source of being
exists or not cannot be proven either way."
This still stands. It is certainly true that a number of the stories
in the Qur'an, or some other scripture among the so-called "Abrahamic
faiths," have not been corroborated by any evidence. They often seem
like myths in light of this lack of evidence, not to mention their
fantastic nature.
NEMO418
> It interesting you say that because the Quran confirms several factual
> incidents that were previously thought to be myths, like the story of Iram and
> the people of `Ad
> (http://islamicity.com/science/QuranAndScience/destruction/GeneratedFilesn
> oframe/ThePeopleof145AdandUbartheAtlantisoftheSands.htm ).
There is no archaeological evidence, ergo this is not evidence.
> The Quran also amazingly correct the historical errors in the Bible, such as
> the one where the Bible called the king during the time of Joseph "Pharaoh"
> when the title didn't exist during the time. Of course, the Quran being from
> God corrected this error:
> http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/josephdetail.html .
This is not historical evidence, either.
> And who could forget the story of Noah and Pharaoh's magicians where the Quran
> once again corrected the scientific errors in the Bible in regard to these
> stories.
The Bible is not a historical document any more than the Quran.
Furthermore, there is no *real* evidence for the existence of Noah or
a flood.
> So to say that none of the scriptures is historical or stated in historical
> fact is not at all accurate.
Yet there is no evidence for the historicity of any of the events or
characters in either the Bible or the Quran. Back to square one.
Nima
Swiss Heritage
many of the central figures of these religions. Do you mean, for
example, Moses, Abraham, and Jesus? Can you tell me where I can find
out more about the scholarship you're talking about?
I did a search on the Internet, and I found a few articles examining
critically what some people consider evidence of the existence of
Jesus, and showing how weak it is. Is that what you mean?
Jim
Starr*
Jim, they are doing comprehensive digs in Israel and can find no
evidence that backs up the history in Christian Theology, and in fact
is showing that there was a Female Counterpart in the early
beginnings. Apprently those who write history have tried to expunge a
good deal of this knowledge. You might try some of the archives of
ABC...as they have produced some very recent documentations
demthyizing the fables that have encaptured the last few centuries.
IMO, this demythizing must take place, so as to free the minds to
accept other paradigms and as a means towards progress. (If the BF had
unfolded as the Maid of Heaven had suggested it may have not been
necessary for humankind to have gone down this route...but since the
BF became an old corrupted form...it is essential to show the falsity
of past myths). Hopefully some other references will be put
forward...but the original assertion of this thread is correct to my
understanding.
Neo/Trinity/Tahirih/Starr*
Randy Burns
teacher who lived and taught around 30 A.D. or do you mean Jesus of the Four
or Five Gospels.?
Randy
--
Swiss Heritage <geo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5fe095d0.03051...@posting.google.com...
QisQos
UM...define what you mean by "jewish".
John 7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not
walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him
QisQos