The Art of interrelationship
Heather Carr-Rowe
Hello to all especially Brendan, Michael, Starr*,Dermod, Susan , Pat, Nima
and all my other friends here on TRB.
I was lying there musing today about the world. About Iran and America ,
about America and the rest of us. and the word interrelational kept popping
into my head.
Why is the world so dysfunctional, including religion? It all boils down to
interrelationship pr the lack of . Humanity is here of this planet earth
because of interrelationships , complex interrelationship that have taken
eons to bring us to where were are.
Life is art and religion is an aspect of that art whether is it good art or
not is largely subjective but if we can at least agree on some of the
outcomes that we wish to derive from our spiritual enterprises we should be
able to bring out the best and leave the rest.
The issues are so broad as to be daunting as this diagram to do with simple
international work shows:
http://web2.concordia.ca/Quality/tools/17interdiagram.pdf
The issues can be the we don't know how to solve our problems, that we don't
think it is important to resolve the issue, The we are afraid to take
action, That we change our priorities too frequently and that we don't or
cannot identify our object.
With religion the matters are of immense complexity even compared with art
yet using international tools can help us find that common ground that is so
necessary to our survival.
Yours Larry
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Indian_art
Indian art
Indian art The unique qualities of Indian art can be best understood through
a broad cultural history,religions and philosophies which place art
production and patronage in social and cultural contexts. Indian art can be
classified into specific periods each reflecting certain religious,
political and cultural developments. Hinduism and Buddhism of the ancient
period (300BC- 1700 AD) Islamic ascendancy (712-1757AD) The colonial period
(1757-1947) Independence and the postcolonial period (Post-1947) Modern and
Post Modern Art in India
Through the years, there has been tremendous change urging the Indian
conscious to profoundly change, revolutionize itself with the changing
demands and to create anew. Each period comes with its own art, literature
and architecture. Indian art is moved by the philosophies, beliefs and
visual images that these philosophies and religions inspired in them. Indian
art is constantly challenged as it rises to the peak of achieving the best
ideals of one philosophy in a visual form, it has to begin anew for another.
It is this challenge and revolution in thought that provided the Indian
artist, place for innovation, creation, and the process of visualizing
abstract ideas and the culture of the land.
Each religion and philosophical system provided its own nuances, vast
metaphors and similes, rich associations, wild imaginations, humanization of
Gods and celestial beings, characterization of people, the single purpose
and ideal of life to be interpreted in art
Interrelationship in Indian Arts The visual arts are basically sculpture,
painting and architecture. However in the Indian context, there is a great
degree of interrelationship between all the arts. According to Kapila
Vatsyayan, 'Classical Indian architecture, sculpture, painting, literature
(kaavya), music and dancing evolved their own rules conditioned by their
respective media, but they shared with one another not only the underlying
spiritual beliefs of the Indian religio-philosophic mind, but also the
procedures by which the relationships of the symbol and the spiritual states
were worked out in detail.' An insight into the unique qualities of Indian
art can be achieved only through an understanding of the philosophical
thought, the broad cultural history, social, religious and political
background of the artworks. In India the distinction between fine and
decorative arts is not pronounced.
India has a continuous history of art starting with the rock paintings. The
first urban cultures of Harappa and Mohenjodaro with their centrally planned
cities indicate a highly developed culture and an understanding of space is
clear from their architecture. The dancing girl from Mohenjodaro, various
seals from Harappa and other art objects show that there was a clear
knowledge of anatomy of the human figure as well as a high degree of
awareness and perception of animal forms. The use of symbolic forms in India
is as old as the Harappan seals. The fire altars of the Vedic period, with
their astronomical and mathematical significance also play an important role
in the evolution of the later temples.
Rock Cut Art The earliest Indian religion to inspire major artistic
monuments was Buddhism. Though there may have been earlier structures in
wood that have been transformed into stone structures, there are no physical
evidences for these except textual references. Obscurity shrouds the period
between the decline of the Harappans and the definite historic period
starting with the Mauryas. Soon after the Buddhists initiated the rock-cut
caves, Hindus and Jains started to imitate them at Badami, Aihole, Ellora,
Salsette, Elephanta, Aurangabad and Mamallapuram. Hindu rock art has
continuously evolved, since the first rock cut caves to suit different
purposes, social and religious contexts, and regional differences. Alongside
the classical art, there have been evolving, changing, transforming, folk
and tribal art traditions. These art forms are the visual expression of
people belonging to different cultural and social groups who fall into the
broad category of Hinduisms. It is the expression of people whose life is
tuned to the rhythms of nature and its laws of cyclic change and whose life
is entwined with the energies of the earth.
Folk Art Folk and tribal art represent the kernel of energy of the
respective communities as a whole. It is a living, changing art form which,
cannot be documented historically, as it changes with time, necessity,
memories and experiences of these people. Often puranic gods and legends are
transformed into contemporary forms and familiar images. Fairs, festivals
and local deities play a vital role in these arts. It is an art where life
and creativity are inseparable. The tribal arts have a unique sensitivity,
as the tribal people possess an intense awareness very different from the
settled and urbanized people. Their minds are supple and intense with myth,
legends, snippets from epic, multitudinous gods born out of dream and
fantasy. Their art is an expression of their life and holds their passion
and mystery. Folk art also includes the visual expressions of the wandering
nomads. This is the art of people who are exposed to changing landscapes as
they travel over the valleys and highlands of India. They carry with them
the experiences and memories of different spaces and their art consists of
the transient, changing pattern of life. The rural, tribal and arts of the
nomads constitute the very matrix of folk expression. The folk spirit has a
tremendous role to play in the development of art and in the consciousness
of the mass.
Citations
Harsha V. Dehejia, The Advaita of Art (Delhi : Motilal Banarsidass, 2000) ,
p.97
Kapila Vatsyayan, Classical Indian Dance in Literature and the Arts (New
Delhi : Sangeet Natak Akademi, 1977) , p.8
Mitter, Partha. Indian Art, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2001
Modern Indian Art This article includes a history of Indian art, done by
people within India, such as M_F_Husain or by the Indian people, or by
Indian expats abroad. The influence of Indian art has been extensive
throughout the western world as the result of the invasions of Alexander the
Great, Buddhism, the cultural transference of Indian culture through
England's interest in orientalism from the early 18th century onwards, with
the greatest exchanges being in Victorian times, and then revived in the
1960s. The influence of Indian art in China, on Korean art, and elsewhere
was equally dramatic as drawn from the influences of again Buddhism and the
frequent exchanges of scholars from the 12th century onwards.
Sotheby's recently had a huge international success in sales on Indian
impressionists. This has led to immense valuations on other artists. Akbar
Padamsee's Mirror Image went for $1,86,000. Husain's Shatranj Ke Khiladi
went for $1,44,000. Chittrovanu Mazumdar sold for $54,000. A Ramachandran
went for $50,400. Bikash Bhattacharjee went for $48,000 and Prabhakar Barwe
for $33,600. All of whom represent the best of Indian art, and are still
unknown to the general public outside of India.
Sculpture
Architecture
Dance
Painting
Music
Literature
Performance art
Links
Indian Art
http://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/hist.html
Source: Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Š 2001-2006 Wikipedia contributors
(Disclaimer)
This article is licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License.
View this article at Wikipedia.org - Edit this article at Wikipedia.org -
Donate to the Wikimedia Foundation
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Primal Point
Heather Carr-Rowe wrote:
> Hello to all especially Brendan, Michael, Starr*,Dermod, Susan , Pat, Nima
> and all my other friends here on TRB.
>
> I was lying there musing today about the world. About Iran and America ,
> about America and the rest of us. and the word interrelational kept popping
> into my head.
>
> Why is the world so dysfunctional, including religion? It all boils down to
> interrelationship pr the lack of . Humanity is here of this planet earth
> because of interrelationships , complex interrelationship that have taken
> eons to bring us to where were are.
>
> Life is art and religion is an aspect of that art whether is it good art or
> not is largely subjective but if we can at least agree on some of the
> outcomes that we wish to derive from our spiritual enterprises we should be
> able to bring out the best and leave the rest.
Amen brother, Amen! Let us keep what is good and leave off the rest!
You speak of interrelationships and what is needed to bring the world
into balance. Now that humanity on a time line (1844) is emerging past
the Separation the material and spiritual must come together. So it is
that East meets West.
One problem of when 'East met West' in recent times (twentieth
century) it did not reflect the true Message of the Spiritual Word of
Tahirih - which gives the people the power to recognize their own
God/ess within. Unfortunately, the way the West is meeting East is an
imposed materialism. One way or another, the two will have to come
together globally to get these interrelationships balanced for a
harmonious planet.
You mention Art as a function of interrelationships. If ever a movie
was produced, based on the life of Tahirih as set out in my book
"Tahirih TheAlogy" - I believe it would be an art form that could
almost over night change attitudes to a global harmony. Sure there
would be a little fussin' but the effect would be ever-lasting and take
on a momentum which would neutralize areas of polarization previously
experienced. I failed to bring out that She represented the Maid of
Love which came from the Primal Unity - and that concept of the
individual being in existence because of that Love would need to be
further developed to allow the movie to have its best and fullest
impact. Surely, understanding the science of love born from the Maid of
Love who was born from the Primal Unity is all encompassing.
Q*
> Source: Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia © 2001-2006 Wikipedia contributors
> (Disclaimer)
> This article is licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License.
> View this article at Wikipedia.org - Edit this article at Wikipedia.org -
> Donate to the Wikimedia Foundation
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
> Copyright © 2006, Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.
Polychrysos
Glad to see that you're talking about interesting things once more. I
enjoyed your post. But then I'm just a cultist, so what would I know.
Brendan
rwi...@dodo.com.au
You wrote-
"I was lying there musing today about the world. About Iran and
America ,
about America and the rest of us. and the word interrelational kept
popping
into my head. Why is the world so dysfunctional, including
religion?"
The evening preceding your post I was lying there, watching-
Lawrence of Arabia: The Battle for the Arab World
http://www.pbs.org/lawrenceofarabia/show/sumone.html
and musing about Iran/Iraq and America the West.
The Lawrence story was long familiar and (art link ;-) O' Toole's
portrayal a gem
(Oh to have been a fly on the interrelational wall when Pete and Omar
Sharif
flew from months on the desert set to weeks of Paris debauchery! ;-)
What the 'The Battle for the Arab World' documentary brought home
once more
was the 'lag' (20-40 years) between events and the release of full
detail.
Anyone familiar with the Lawrence/Arab story will know how both had
been lied to by the English authorities...what the documentary
revealed
was the depth and degree of the deceit. It wasn't just the stupidity
and
bastardry of Versai...nor the subsequent aerial bombing and gassing
of Baghdad (10 000 dead) during the Arab revolt...nor even the
subsequent
carving out of Iraq- a nation deliberately forged by the British to
house
three violently contending ethnic groups who would forever fight each
other
rather than their neighbors........the worst of it all was the willful
ignorance
(Evil) of the Western nations. Even when Lawrence/Fissal and others
had
been invited to put the best options on the table (Fissal even meeting
with
the head of the Zionist movement and declaring their mutual
"interrelationship"
as the twin branches of the Semitic tree")....even with the entire
issue made
high public profile by the celebrity status of Lawrence- the bastards
in power
shat on any fair outcome.
S/11......"Why do they hate us"?.....Because "interrelational"
requires recognition
that the 'other' exists and has legitimate needs and expectations.
Our grandparents
failed the interrelational recognition and we have not rectified the
evil error.
For the last ten years I have, on and off, been conducting a little
experiment in
the schools (Primary, Secondary and Tertiary levels) in which I have
worked.
I invite the class to name (living or dead) a famous scientist, artist,
musician,
philosopher.....at any level the kids rattle off the names- Albert E,
Vincent,
Mozart, Elvis, Plato........
Then I ask if anyone can name a Moslem contributor in the same
fields...even
with teachers help....the best they have come up with thus far is Cat
Stevens.
We (the West) are deeply prejudiced and determined in our
ignorance...this
is intrenched and reflected in our 'interrelational' denying art.
This is reflected in O Toole's Lawrence of Arabia glossing over the
depth of
Western betrayal of the Arabs.
It is also reflected in the fact that even an artist long fascinated
with the work
of Escher would have to dig long and deep to discover his principle
source of
inspiration was the mosaic walls of Muslim Cordoba.
I liked your post Larry....I hope my response is not entirely off on a
tangent.
Rod.
All Bad
Primal Point
rwi...@dodo.com.au wrote:
> Hi Larry.....nice post.....a real pearler in the swine pit ;-)
> We (the West) are deeply prejudiced and determined in our
> ignorance...this
> is intrenched and reflected in our 'interrelational' denying art.
> This is reflected in O Toole's Lawrence of Arabia glossing over the
> depth of
> Western betrayal of the Arabs.
> It is also reflected in the fact that even an artist long fascinated
> with the work
> of Escher would have to dig long and deep to discover his principle
> source of
> inspiration was the mosaic walls of Muslim Cordoba.
Almost all education revolves around imprinting the children according
to their own culture and the system the rulers want them to follow.
When China took over Hong Kong - they rewrote the history books in
accordance with the imprinting they wanted the young to have. The same
ignorance of Western culture is prevelant in the East. Recently there
is a move to have some well known American authors translated into
Arabic so the Eastern people can become more familar with Western
thought.
I have been ever-so encouraged by the response I have had to Tahirih
Thealogy, where women all over the West are eagarly wanting to know
more about women and culture in the East. This is one of the reasons
the book was written and it is slowly bringing awareness to many. I see
the book as a bridge between the East and West....and I hope to have an
Arabic translation in the future. I believe the women in the East will
feel very encouraged to know that Western women are promoting a woman
from their own part of the world and therefore women form east and west
can work more 'interrelationally'.
Q*
Heather Carr-Rowe
Don't feel bad about being a cultist Brendan, fact is all religionists are
cultists to one degree or another. Cult can have a broad definition from
that which unifies as in tribal cultism to the darker aspects of cult which
we saw in Jonestown. Cult is simply belief on one level and belief can
either have positive or negative outcomes both individually and socially.
Sorry if my being in a bit of a miff about the shoddy way I was treated by
Alison and Karen has spilled over, I should have been more discerning. Well
no one is perfect.
Being a cultist is believing things that defy reason and that qualifies for
much that passes as religious belief. As a semireformed, lol, cultist myself
I can testify to just how difficult it is to let go of some of the negative
aspects of religion-cultism.
I have been saying for quite a while that all religions are cults, some are
just more successful cults that others.
Religious belief can make a person a gentle and pacifistic individual such
as a Quaker, a person who would never dream of harming anyone even if it
meant harm coming to themselves, religious belief can also make a person a
loose cannon, a person who would take the lives of several hundred people
and throw them away in the hope of killing several thousands of other
innocent people. Both people are religionists, both are in a manner of
speaking cultists as well though because their religious belief is based on
thinking that is not empirically provable. It is what we do with our beliefs
that matters most.
To tell the truth Brendan I don't really know if I will ever not be a
cultist, when you are indoctrinated as a child there are some things that
get right into your synapses that just never go away. Some of those things
are worthy, some are definitely not.
Yours
Larry Rowe
sma...@jam.rr.com
> cultists to one degree or another. Cult can have a broad definition from
> that which unifies as in tribal cultism to the darker aspects of cult which
> we saw in Jonestown. Cult is simply belief on one level and belief can
> either have positive or negative outcomes both individually and socially.
Actually, that is not what a cult is. While we've made the term 'cult'
a perjorative, a cult is simply a system of religious beliefs and
rituals, with the emphasis on ritual, something Baha'is don't have much
of.
Heather Carr-Rowe
As art mimics life sometimes life mimics art. I heard saw, and heard art in
your post, art with both a spiritual and practical edge.
We are indeed reaping the 'benefits of our forefathers short sighted
blunders in the Middle East, Africa and South America, where line were drawn
on maps with more concern to latitudes and longitudes than tribal realities.
The peoples of these areas have been feeling the effect of the ignorance of
our forefathers arrogance for all these ensuing generations.
As Bolivia insighfully said when he booted the Spaniards out: "it will
leave a heritage of violence that will last for generations". Africa and the
Middle East has had much the same heritage, with us supplying the weaponry
to both sides. The same can be seen with all areas of the world where
colonialism put the none too gentle imprint of it's boot on the backs of the
local indigenous and aboriginal peoples.
Much of our prosperity in the West can be attributed to this boot, this
boot that enforced Guatemalan styled American Fruit Company, economic
tactics on the local populations of so many people in the undeveloped world.
Those that suffered the most were the local peoples such as the Mayans and
so many other indigenous peoples of the world.
Now we are all in the same fix, the Amazon River is drying up,
desertification is spreading. Fish populations are becoming scarce to the
point of extinction and all for what?
So the suave and elite can enjoy their farm bred Salmon year round instead
of just seasonally. Salmon that are fed from local South American fish that
are harvested with no thought to the future of local sea ecology . This is
just one such example.
And this is exactly the problem, there is no thought, or far too little of
it. Some because people are uninformed, some because people fear giving up
those little luxuries, some simply because people are too fearful to
seriously contemplate what we are facing as a kind, some because people
simply don't care past the generation of their own lives. This is the true
human spiritual juncture that we are at, as a kind, collectively; do we have
enough wherewithal to pull our selves together, to ease the coming crunch or
are we so ignorant so as to believe we can somehow avoid the unavoidable?
Resources are depletable and we coming to the limit of the sustainability of
those resources. We can grow new trees but we need the ecology to support
that, there are many resources that we can conserve but there is a point of
no return for some resources when the taps will simply go dry.
Picture a world, and Katrina gave us a little glimpse of it, where oil and
gas prices double, triple, quadruple. Now multiply that by a thousand fold.
You think there were line ups then? There would be a total breakdown of
civil economy, it would be each for his own and bike sales would go through
the roof, invest in the bicycle industry!
These are our true spiritual challenges, our true spiritual frontiers, not
the niceties of Hiafian Tradition.
To deal with these realties it will take artists of interealtionship to
mend what has been broken and to find new ways of allowing nature to do what
it has always done with as little interference as possible from us and
perhaps a little constructive repairation where it can be done without doing
more harm than good. Artists of the intererlationship of art to culture,
innovators of the interrelationship of human ecology with earth ecology, and
on a grander scale thinkers on how we as a kind can interrelate with the
beautiful and awesome world ecosphere whch has treated us so beneficently
for so long.
As always Rick, Mr. mud man, I always find your posts to be elegant , spot
on and of artist integrity.
Yours Larry
Heather Carr-Rowe
The truth is that we are all interrelated. Interrelated bodily through our
genetics, and that is just as a kind, and when we conceive of the fact that
we are interrelated to all life on this planet through our genetics it
really puts interrelationship into perspective. Our spiritual
interrelatedness is a more factual thing but a much more difficult thing to
define.
Many of us in the West, for the most part, have somehow lost the connection
of our interrelatedness. We have become so distanced that when we go to buy
groceries it is the price that is the all important factor and not the
ethics of how it was grown and the profits shared.
We are awakening, let this awakening meet the ignorance that is the true
obstacle to that awakening head on and let us pray that our awakening will
win out though be somewhat gentled.
Yours Larry
Heather Carr-Rowe
Although I agree with aspects of your definition of cult I strongly
disagree that the Baha'i Faith doesn't engage in cultic behavior. I have 45
years of personal Baha'i experience which disproves this.
Speaking from personal experience when I attended a meeting that was
sponsored in 1988 by the Regional Teaching Committee in Burnaby B.C., people
of Chinese ancestry were specifically targeted. Named and specified as
TARGETS. What was even more cultish about this was the fact that the
participants of this meeting where encouraged to befriend people of Chinese
ancestry specifically for the purpose of introducing them to the faith, read
conversion. I found this highly disturbing at the time and it is still a
disturbing experience in my personal life as a Baha'i . Now if this wasn't
enough of cult behavior, the participants were encouraged to not initially
state that Baha'u'llah was a prophet or manifestation but simple a social
reformer. A thing that is even more funny but scary is the fact that this is
the exact accusation that the Universal House of Justice made against
'liberal' Baha'is, in its infamous April 7, 1997 letter. The right doesn't
seem to know what the left is doing, perhaps this is the greatest cause of
the Faith's dysfunction.
The inclusion of a Baha'i thought police gives the Baha'i Faith all the
hall marks of cult Susan, sorry but thems the facts. Individual Baha'is are
not all extreme cultists but as an organization the Baha'i Faith has long
since crossed the line into true cultdom.
Yours Larry
sma...@jam.rr.com
Heather Carr-Rowe wrote:
> Dear Susan,
>
> Although I agree with aspects of your definition of cult I strongly
> disagree that the Baha'i Faith doesn't engage in cultic behavior. I have 45
> years of personal Baha'i experience which disproves this.
>
> Speaking from personal experience when I attended a meeting that was
> sponsored in 1988 by the Regional Teaching Committee in Burnaby B.C., people
> of Chinese ancestry were specifically targeted.
Which has what to do with cultish behavior? As I said, a cult is
specific set of ritual behavior centered around certain beliefs. So
cultish behavior would be stuff like lighting candles to the Virgin
Mary.
Now if this wasn't
> enough of cult behavior, the participants were encouraged to not initially
> state that Baha'u'llah was a prophet or manifestation but simple a social
> reformer.
That doesn't sound cultish to me, it just sounds wrong.
A thing that is even more funny but scary is the fact that this is
> the exact accusation that the Universal House of Justice made against
> 'liberal' Baha'is, in its infamous April 7, 1997 letter.
Yes, that is an inconsistency. So do you think that Juan is being
cultish when he presents Baha'u'llah as a social reformer?
>
> The inclusion of a Baha'i thought police gives the Baha'i Faith all the
> hall marks of cult Susan, sorry but thems the facts.
The fact is we belong to culture which has been misusing the term
'cult' in order to stigmatize any small religion we don't like. As for
'thought police' as the Universal House of Justice wrote me: "the
institutions do not busy themselves with what individual believers
think unless those thoughts become expressed in actions which are
inimical to the basic principles and vital interests of the Faith."
http://methodologies.susanmaneck.com/
Heather Carr-Rowe
instead of interrelational. although the words are related in ways we are
only beginning to comprehend.
You have no idea how spell check is a blessing to some one like me who is
spelling challenged and perhaps a bit dyslexic, lol.
The issues are so broad as to be daunting as this diagram to do with simple
interrelational work shows:
With religion the matters are of immense complexity even compared with art
yet using interrelational tools can help us find that common ground that is
Heather Carr-Rowe
think unless those thoughts become expressed in actions which are
inimical to the basic principles and vital interests of the Faith."
http://methodologies.susanmaneck.com/
That Baha'i institutions find individuals such as Sen McGlinn and book
sellers such as Kalamat press as been inimical and a threat to the basic
principles and vitals interests of the Faith is a measure of the degree to
which those basic principles have diverged from the basic principles of the
Founder of the Baha'is Faith who based his religion on the independent
search into truth and the freedom to express ideas in books instead of a
propensity to ban books which do not fit a certain conservative cliques
narrow religions aims or agendas.
What Kalamat has published is mild by any religious definition and Tony has
always been meticulous to insure that a balanced approach is represented.
The Universal House of Justice has truly crossed a line with Sen's
excommunication and it's directive to the USA NSA to come down on Kalamat.
This represents the opposite of interrelatedness, the opposite of finding
common ground, it represents a totalitarian exercise in authoritarianism
which has nothing whatsoever to do with spirituality but everything to do
with worldly power brokering, read wordly prestige.
The U.H.J's. days of legitimacy are limited and I'm not talking any
conspiracy theory, I'm talking common sense. The sense to find common
ground, the sense to cultivate interrelationship instead of finding excuses
to persecute others simple because their religious interpretations are
naturally diverse.
The U.H.J. is fighting a loosing battle because it is on the wrong side, it
is one the side of religious insularity and exclusivism, an obsolescent
religious exclusivism which is thankfully going through its death throes.
Yours Larry
John MacLeod
"Heather Carr-Rowe" <ro...@northwestel.net> wrote in message
news:eNxzf.13878$xk1.3...@news20.bellglobal.com...
>>
> Speaking from personal experience when I attended a meeting that was
> sponsored in 1988 by the Regional Teaching Committee in Burnaby B.C., people
> of Chinese ancestry were specifically targeted. Named and specified as
> TARGETS. What was even more cultish about this was the fact that the
> participants of this meeting where encouraged to befriend people of Chinese
> ancestry specifically for the purpose of introducing them to the faith, read
> conversion. I found this highly disturbing at the time and it is still a
> disturbing experience in my personal life as a Baha'i . Now if this wasn't
> enough of cult behavior, the participants were encouraged to not initially
> state that Baha'u'llah was a prophet or manifestation but simple a social
> reformer.
Yes, I remember that period. I think reaching the great population in China
was described as the 'highest priority' or some such phrase. In Melbourne the
targetting was more specific - we were to reach out to the considerable number
of People's Republic citizens studying at our Universities who then were
supposed to carry the fire home. I'm surprised you were asked to describe
Baha'u'llah as a social reformer. In Melbourne the idea was to get them to
sign the card and I think Baha'u'llah was rarely mentioned. One night I watch
horrified as a young man who spoke only rudimentary English was hassled by a
Malaysian Baha'i of Chinese ancestry who spoke Chinese but not pu tong hua.
The boy (he was little more than a boy) obediently signed the card though it
was quite apparent he hadn't a clue what it was.
As our Assembly area embraced a couple of the main Universities we ended up
with about 15 such Baha'is on our books. We used to visit them - they were
friendly. One or two did get hold of the idea that we were 'Baha'is' and
seemed to quite like the functions we put on. I don't think any of them ever
realised that they were Baha'is too or had any conception of what the Baha'i
Faith was.
I don't know - maybe a few students did really embrace the Faith and carry it
home. It's hard to believe that enough did to counterbalance the
disillusionment and disgust felt by the local Baha'is who were supposed to be
carrying out this 'highest priority' task.
The Faith needs truth and reconciliation. Until we can talk about such things
that we found distasteful they will fester in our minds. Strangely, the thing
I find most off-putting about the Faith is the relentless official optimism.
sma...@jam.rr.com
> horrified as a young man who spoke only rudimentary English was hassled by a
> Malaysian Baha'i of Chinese ancestry who spoke Chinese but not pu tong hua.
> The boy (he was little more than a boy) obediently signed the card though it
> was quite apparent he hadn't a clue what it was.
Strangely, the thing
> I find most off-putting about the Faith is the relentless official optimism.
Dear John,
Reading your scenario it strikes me that the problem here is that
people were acting out of a sense of desperation to fill goals by
whatever means necessary than teaching the Faith with confidence. It
seems to me when we do that, we don't have to get pushy.
warmest, Susan
John MacLeod
<sma...@jam.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1137646915.0...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Dear John,
>
> Reading your scenario it strikes me that the problem here is that
> people were acting out of a sense of desperation to fill goals by
> whatever means necessary than teaching the Faith with confidence. It
> seems to me when we do that, we don't have to get pushy.
>
Yes. Perhaps we should ease off on the goals and tell our institutions to
ease off.
I remember once suggesting at a Unit Convention that the Faith should have a
non-teaching year. A complete year when nobody did any teaching activity at
all. Of course if someone asked us a question we would answer it but not try
to elicit questions. My main idea was just to set a baseline as to what the
actual natural rise or fall in the Faith would be so we would have some way of
knowing whether all the campaigns had a negative or positive effect. I have a
feeling though that the sense of relief and lack of pressure would make the
Baha'is so happy we would attract more people than teaching ever would.
Heather Carr-Rowe
> I remember once suggesting at a Unit Convention that the Faith should have
a
> non-teaching year. A complete year when nobody did any teaching activity
at
> all. Of course if someone asked us a question we would answer it but not
try
> to elicit questions. My main idea was just to set a baseline as to what
the
> actual natural rise or fall in the Faith would be so we would have some
way of
> knowing whether all the campaigns had a negative or positive effect. I
have a
> feeling though that the sense of relief and lack of pressure would make
the
> Baha'is so happy we would attract more people than teaching ever would.
>
ROTFALMAO Yours Larry
sma...@jam.rr.com
> non-teaching year. A complete year when nobody did any teaching activity at
> all. Of course if someone asked us a question we would answer it but not try
> to elicit questions. My main idea was just to set a baseline as to what the
> actual natural rise or fall in the Faith would be so we would have some way of
> knowing whether all the campaigns had a negative or positive effect. I have a
> feeling though that the sense of relief and lack of pressure would make the
> Baha'is so happy we would attract more people than teaching ever would.
Dear John,
Well, it seems you got your wish. Teaching campaigns came to screeching
halt in virtually all communities that were not "A" clusters during the
Five Year plan.
Do you think it had the desired results?
warmest, Susan
123Infinity
>
> Dear John,
>
> Well, it seems you got your wish. Teaching campaigns came to screeching
> halt in virtually all communities that were not "A" clusters during the
> Five Year plan.
>
> Do you think it had the desired results?
>
> warmest, Susan
>
Our community and the neighboring ones
must be the exceptions you talked
about.
Albert
John MacLeod
<sma...@jam.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1137652417.8...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Well, it seems you got your wish. Teaching campaigns came to screeching
> halt in virtually all communities that were not "A" clusters during the
> Five Year plan.
>
> Do you think it had the desired results?
No because the 'big' campaign - the preparation for entry by troops - was
still there and still being pushed remorselessly. I meant a real non-teaching
year - where nobody even thought about whether or how to bring people into the
Faith. I think I suggested it for the Holy Year in 92. Would have been a
nice way to celebrate wouldn't it?
Finnegan's Wake
<sma...@jam.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1137646915.0...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> One night I watch
>> horrified as a young man who spoke only rudimentary English was hassled
>> by a
>> Malaysian Baha'i of Chinese ancestry who spoke Chinese but not pu tong
>> hua.
>> The boy (he was little more than a boy) obediently signed the card though
>> it
>> was quite apparent he hadn't a clue what it was.
> <snip>
> Strangely, the thing
>> I find most off-putting about the Faith is the relentless official
>> optimism.
>
> Dear John,
>
> Reading your scenario it strikes me that the problem here is that
> people were acting out of a sense of desperation to fill goals by
> whatever means necessary than teaching the Faith with confidence.
Funny, isn't it - that's how I was signed up ... sold a liberal tolerant
faith, signed up to fulfil a goal ... only to find that I was in a den of
theocratic pretenders.
Finnegan's Wake
<sma...@jam.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1137652417.8...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Well, it seems you got your wish. Teaching campaigns came to screeching
> halt in virtually all communities that were not "A" clusters during the
> Five Year plan.
>
> Do you think it had the desired results?
Definitely .... and long may it continue ... tokeep the rabble out.
>
> warmest, Susan
>
sma...@jam.rr.com
>
> Definitely .... and long may it continue ... tokeep the rabble out.
I think John was expecting the Faith to grow more if we stopped trying
so hard.
Brid
sma...@jam.rr.com wrote:
>
> Which has what to do with cultish behavior? As I said, a cult is
> specific set of ritual behavior centered around certain beliefs. So
> cultish behavior would be stuff like lighting candles to the Virgin
> Mary.
'Stuff' like lighting candles to the Virgin Mary is not cult behaviour,
it is religious practice with a basis in the theology of Christianity's
oldest and largest mainstream churches. By this definition is the
saying of 95 allah'u'abhas using a set of beads as a counter also
evidence of cult behaviour or does that only apply to the Rosary?
Cultish behaviour revolves around the cynical use and abuse of
individual believers by uncaring authoritarian figures. It also
involves non-stop prosleytism to the exclusion of actual service to
humanity, the constant seeking of funds, and the arbitrary exercise of
power. All religions can indeed manifest these elements, yours
certainly does.
Brid
sma...@jam.rr.com
> it is religious practice with a basis in the theology of Christianity's
> oldest and largest mainstream churches.
That doesn't make the cult of the Virgin Mary any less so. In the 20th
century the word 'cult; has become a perjorative term for young and
small religions that one doesn't like, but that is not the original
meaning of the word.
By this definition is the
> saying of 95 allah'u'abhas using a set of beads as a counter also
> evidence of cult behaviour or does that only apply to the Rosary?
No, I agree that is cultish behavior in the original sense of the word
as well. Baha'is do have some ritual, and therefore 'cultish behavior'
we just have a good deal less than most religions.
>
> Cultish behaviour revolves around the cynical use and abuse of
> individual believers by uncaring authoritarian figures.
You mean like what happens to alter boys? Sorry, that's not really what
a cult is.
It also
> involves non-stop prosleytism to the exclusion of actual service to
> humanity, the constant seeking of funds, and the arbitrary exercise of
> power.
As I said, it has become a perjorative term for anything we don't like
in a religion and has thereby become meaningless.
sma...@jam.rr.com
> faith, signed up to fulfil a goal ...
You signed up to fulfill a goal?
Finnegan's Wake
<sma...@jam.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1137697315....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I think that was your message that I was responding to and it certainly had
results that pleased me. Indeed - long may that happy state continue for
not only are you failing to attract fresh recruits but you seem happy to see
so many get the order of the boot. How long do you reckon old Polychrysos
will last ... as long as Sen ... or will it be a Michael? I tell you what
... wait until he has converted that fiancée into a wife and then there'll
be somebody to write to with an explanation.
Finnegan's Wake
"Brid" <bridci...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1137706196.2...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> sma...@jam.rr.com wrote:
>>
>> Which has what to do with cultish behavior? As I said, a cult is
>> specific set of ritual behavior centered around certain beliefs. So
>> cultish behavior would be stuff like lighting candles to the Virgin
>> Mary.
>
> 'Stuff' like lighting candles to the Virgin Mary is not cult behaviour,
> it is religious practice with a basis in the theology of Christianity's
> oldest and largest mainstream churches. By this definition is the
> saying of 95 allah'u'abhas using a set of beads as a counter also
> evidence of cult behaviour or does that only apply to the Rosary?
Only the Rosary ... don'tcha know there's nothing cultish in Bahai?
> Cultish behaviour revolves around the cynical use and abuse of
> individual believers by uncaring authoritarian figures. It also
> involves non-stop prosleytism to the exclusion of actual service to
> humanity, the constant seeking of funds, and the arbitrary exercise of
> power. All religions can indeed manifest these elements, yours
> certainly does.
The supremacy of Kildare over Jackson is plainly manifest!
>
> Brid
>
Finnegan's Wake
<sma...@jam.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1137710926.3...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> 'Stuff' like lighting candles to the Virgin Mary is not cult behaviour,
>> it is religious practice with a basis in the theology of Christianity's
>> oldest and largest mainstream churches.
>
> That doesn't make the cult of the Virgin Mary any less so. In the 20th
> century the word 'cult; has become a perjorative term for young and
> small religions that one doesn't like, but that is not the original
> meaning of the word.
Well - being modern, we utilise the modern meaning. Did you not know that
the meaning of words changes through time and usage?
> By this definition is the
>> saying of 95 allah'u'abhas using a set of beads as a counter also
>> evidence of cult behaviour or does that only apply to the Rosary?
>
> No, I agree that is cultish behavior in the original sense of the word
> as well. Baha'is do have some ritual, and therefore 'cultish behavior'
> we just have a good deal less than most religions.
You haven't been around as long as they have ... but the signs are there, if
you were at all perceptive.
>> Cultish behaviour revolves around the cynical use and abuse of
>> individual believers by uncaring authoritarian figures.
>
> You mean like what happens to alter boys? Sorry, that's not really what
> a cult is.
Your usual cut and distort tactics!
>
> It also
>> involves non-stop prosleytism to the exclusion of actual service to
>> humanity, the constant seeking of funds, and the arbitrary exercise of
>> power.
>
> As I said, it has become a perjorative term for anything we don't like
> in a religion and has thereby become meaningless.
Not at all ... save for plonkers who don't wish or are not permitted to face
reality.
>
Finnegan's Wake
<sma...@jam.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1137711017.2...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> Funny, isn't it - that's how I was signed up ... sold a liberal tolerant
>> faith, signed up to fulfil a goal ...
>
> You signed up to fulfill a goal?
I was signed up to fulfill a goal ... pushed, pressured and kept awake all
night!
Hell of an expensive goal ... if you ask me! But, just to reassure you ...
I'm having a lot of fun!
>
Heather Carr-Rowe
degrades to a mud slinging.
match to do with whose cult is rosier, lol.
Whose cult is more cultish, which rituals are cultic and which are simply
ritualistic expressions of devotion.
Cult has come to mean a broad definition of terms from the more benign to
the most odious.
Ritual or cult behavior in religion is a way of bonding community, it is
also a way of making religion exclusivistic and insular and keeping out
those whose interpretations of religious practice , behavior and ritual have
naturally begun to diverge in the natural process of diversification.
Now there are all things that we all agree on such as the odious nature of
the use by pedophiles of the Catholic Church as an easy source for them to
access young boys, yet the Catholic Church has turned this into an issue of
homosexuality, which it is not, and is simple scapgoating.
Religion has a broad influence through the world and not all of that
influence is positive, not by any means, not even the religion of
Baha'u'llah.
It is only through using modern interrealtional tools or such tools that we
can sort out the positive from the negative and get to the source of all the
dysfunctioning that religion causes in our world today.
Why don't we use problem solving processes? Because we are afraid to take
action, actions that may fundamentally alter our consensus reality. Because
we do not believe the issues are important enough to resolve. Because the
objects of what we wish to achieve through working to improve
interrelationship are hard to agree on or have perhaps not yet even been
identified. Largely it is because we don't have a clue on how to solve our
collective problems, religious social, economic, the situation seems in many
ways to already be out of control, or at least out of our control. Lastly
the truism that too many cooks may spoil the broth may kick in. We have so
many individuals all with different priorities that it seems impossible to
reconcile them all.
The cults of Judaism, Christianity, Islam and the Bahai' Faith to a lesser
degree have contributed much that is positive to the world in art, culture,
and intellectual persuits. Unfortunately they have all contributed much that
is dark, regressive, evil even. This comes about through the natural
territoriality that forms around faith communities to give form at first and
then to protect the orthodox territory, at all costs. Until these artificial
walls come down , including those of the Baha'i Faith the world would be far
better off without such systems of belief.
We need to interrelate on a very intimate and human basis and until those
walls come down that will remain impossible on a gobal scale.
Yours Larry
All Bad
Brid wrote:
Welcome back! I trust you've had a spirit filled Christmas and Feast of
the Concision? I'm guessing that was last week, and the week before,
perhaps?
> sma...@jam.rr.com wrote:
>
>>Which has what to do with cultish behavior? As I said, a cult is
>>specific set of ritual behavior centered around certain beliefs. So
>>cultish behavior would be stuff like lighting candles to the Virgin
>>Mary.
>
>
> 'Stuff' like lighting candles to the Virgin Mary is not cult behaviour,
> it is religious practice with a basis in the theology of Christianity's
> oldest and largest mainstream churches. By this definition is the
> saying of 95 allah'u'abhas using a set of beads as a counter also
> evidence of cult behaviour or does that only apply to the Rosary?
>
> Cultish behaviour revolves around the cynical use and abuse of
> individual believers by uncaring authoritarian figures. It also
The answer to the question might turn on how you define "cult". To
some, it reflects care, such as used in the word "culture" and
"horticulture".
http://merriamwebster.com/dictionary/cult
> involves non-stop prosleytism to the exclusion of actual service to
> humanity, the constant seeking of funds, and the arbitrary exercise of
You have a different dictionary. We are divided by a common language.
Check out definition 2 below - it alludes to the eraser, but it is not
used as a word for a pencil eraser - and don't look at 3d - you might blush:
http://merriamwebster.com/dictionary/rubber
> power. All religions can indeed manifest these elements, yours
> certainly does.
I would hope that all religions, even yours, could support care, and
veneration.
- All Bad
sma...@jam.rr.com
> Well - being modern, we utilise the modern meaning. Did you not know that
> the meaning of words changes through time and usage?
Yes, and the modern usage is a meaningless perjorative made up by
fundamentalist who wish to trash any non-Christian religion.
Finnegan's Wake
<sma...@jam.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1137737312.8...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Hardly meaningless, though undoubtedly pejorative ... but as the shoe fits,
you gotta wear it. Did you ever give serious thought as to how you might
undermine application of this word to the particular religion, of which you
are a member and for which you expend such time and energy, quite vainly, in
its defence?
For example, could you show how it is broad and tolerant, how it
accommodates diversity of opinion, how it maturely handles criticism etc?
Efforts in that direction might yield greater benefit than huffy
condemnation of fellow fundamentalists, albeit their cultish behaviour is in
connection with other than your particular brand of religion.
Finnegan's Wake
> And so it goes, we start a thread about the art of interrelationship and
> it
> degrades to a mud slinging.
> match to do with whose cult is rosier, lol.
You can't keep a good larrikin down!
> Now there are all things that we all agree on such as the odious nature of
> the use by pedophiles of the Catholic Church as an easy source for them to
> access young boys, yet the Catholic Church has turned this into an issue
> of
> homosexuality, which it is not, and is simple scapgoating.
Quite incorrect. Catholicism has always condemned homosexuality as immoral
and sinful. Paedophilia is not homosexuality but is also condemned.
> Religion has a broad influence through the world and not all of that
> influence is positive, not by any means, not even the religion of
> Baha'u'llah.
Coming from my neck of the woods, I would venture to suggest that its
influence has been, historically, intensely negative.
> It is only through using modern interrealtional tools or such tools that
> we
> can sort out the positive from the negative and get to the source of all
> the
> dysfunctioning that religion causes in our world today.
>
> Why don't we use problem solving processes? Because we are afraid to take
> action, actions that may fundamentally alter our consensus reality.
> Because
> we do not believe the issues are important enough to resolve. Because the
> objects of what we wish to achieve through working to improve
> interrelationship are hard to agree on or have perhaps not yet even been
> identified. Largely it is because we don't have a clue on how to solve our
> collective problems, religious social, economic, the situation seems in
> many
> ways to already be out of control, or at least out of our control. Lastly
> the truism that too many cooks may spoil the broth may kick in. We have so
> many individuals all with different priorities that it seems impossible to
> reconcile them all.
Not impossible though extremely difficult and much reliant on the trenchany
of the stance. The means of solving problems are known - the art is in
reconciling all parties to a dispute to an agreed solution.
Michael McKenny
Many thanks for your comments.
"Brid" (bridci...@yahoo.com) writes:
> sma...@jam.rr.com wrote:
>>
>> Which has what to do with cultish behavior? As I said, a cult is
>> specific set of ritual behavior centered around certain beliefs. So
>> cultish behavior would be stuff like lighting candles to the Virgin
>> Mary.
>
> 'Stuff' like lighting candles to the Virgin Mary is not cult behaviour,
You are completely correct. Thanks for highlighting again a discussion
that is focused on words.
> it is religious practice with a basis in the theology of Christianity's
> oldest and largest mainstream churches. By this definition is the
> saying of 95 allah'u'abhas using a set of beads as a counter also
> evidence of cult behaviour or does that only apply to the Rosary?
It has long been an aspect of the culture of denial from those seeking to
impose their cultish control over believers have concentrated on using
words, on seeking the redefinition of words, on playing words, as if they
had forgotten that Baha'i is all about deeds, not word games.
Of course, the word cult is not one that applies to the minitiae, the
little things that a believer performs as part of daily life, the
specifics of worship.
> Cultish behaviour revolves around the cynical use and abuse of
> individual believers by uncaring authoritarian figures. It also
> involves non-stop prosleytism to the exclusion of actual service to
> humanity, the constant seeking of funds, and the arbitrary exercise of
> power. All religions can indeed manifest these elements, yours
> certainly does.
Your description of the activities, the deeds of those reprehensible in
the eyes of Baha'i scripture are very well put.
I will again remind people that however understandable is the outrage at
that sense of betrayal that the cult leaders of Baha'i have done what is
so contrary to the clear text of the Baha'i scriptures and exerted
themselves to behave so distantly from the clear instructions, directions,
their very job description to guide harmoniously, with personal and
institutional humility, realizing the grand universal nature of the
welcoming, accepting and all embracing faith it is their duty to serve,
taking the example of the precious life of Abdu'l Baha, though updated to
apply to this very different age, opening up Baha'i far more than even he
felt able -- notwithstanding this heart rending discovery that those who
were supposed to tread in his universalist footsteps, his open mindedness,
his heart warming all-embracing nature, and, in obedience to Baha'u'llah's
teaching to live according to this more globally alive age, to go further,
to maintain the balanced, the ever cutting edge and moderate principles of
a spiritual entity encompassing humanity, these guys have sought to insist
on their narrow, their arrogant and their cultish dogmas, control and
exclusionary power, notwithstanding all this demonization has no place
within Baha'i.
The deeds, the fact of an attempted redefinition of universalism to
fundamentalism, from world faith to petty cult is simply met by a
statement of the reality, by praying for the would be leaders of a cult
and by taking the Baha'i path of illuminating the opposite of contentious
factional infighting.
The key word in Baha'i, the key term in the encounter with cultish
fundamentalism, the key to the barriers and ditches tossed in front of a
world religion, the global expression of human spirituality is the word
"And."
And! Baha'u'llah does not seek to belittle anyone. He does not intend to
demean anyone. He does not come to destroy anything. He instead shines the
light of a more brilliant understanding upon all. He instead demonstrates
that individual souls are more precious than many have hitherto
understood. He instead informs everyone that, for example, acting in the
manner of cult leaders is not worthy of the members of the Universal House
of Justice. He seeks to lift them above arrogant insistence that the few
dwellers of a little puddle say they believe anything at all, reasonable
or not, spiritual or the contrary, if they are told this by an infallible
perfect committee, or fearfully keep silence; the Source of Guidance for a
maturing humanity is a creation far above such cult control, deserving
global respect, esteem and appreciation, as a result of its action, its
deeds, its living a universalist, a global, an inclusive, a harmonious, a
mature, a wise, a spiritual, a Baha'i life.
Thrive, Red
>
> Brid
>
Brid
Heather Carr-Rowe wrote:
> And so it goes, we start a thread about the art of interrelationship and it
> degrades to a mud slinging.
> match to do with whose cult is rosier, lol.
>
> Whose cult is more cultish, which rituals are cultic and which are simply
> ritualistic expressions of devotion.
Just trying to clarify a point. Surely the art of interrelationship has
to take account of the realities of what's important for the other and
why?
>
> Cult has come to mean a broad definition of terms from the more benign to
> the most odious.
It has indeed.
>
> Ritual or cult behavior in religion is a way of bonding community, it is
> also a way of making religion exclusivistic and insular and keeping out
> those whose interpretations of religious practice , behavior and ritual have
> naturally begun to diverge in the natural process of diversification.
Ritual is indeed a way of bonding community, Linda Walbridge made the
point in her paper that those churches with a common liturgical
tradition have a greater degree of unity than those without. That's
certainly how it works in my own tradition where the liturgy is an
expression of a common faith shared by a family of autonomous churches
embracing many different races, languages and cultures. That our
Tradition keeps out those who have diverged from it is a perfectly
natural thing to Orthodox Christians, Larry. Orthodoxy is about both
right belief and right worship, so we can't embrace the heterodoxy of
others. It doesn't, however, mean that we can't embrace them as human
beings created in the image of God in the here and now and we make no
dogmatic pronouncements on their ultimate destiny in the hereafter. The
dogma which we proclaim and defend is expressed in apophatic terms, it
uses poetic language and frankly admits of mystery. Like I said above
you've got to understand where the other guy is coming from and why
what is important to him is so. And you've got to let him tell you
himself. Senex has to keep tradition going sometimes so as Puer has
something to tilt at when he's young and something to return to when
he's older. All Puer and no Senex isn't balanced either it seems to me.
>
> Religion has a broad influence through the world and not all of that
> influence is positive, not by any means, not even the religion of
> Baha'u'llah.
Agreed. There is a strong strand of thought within Orthodoxy which sees
'religion' as a sickness from which humanity needs to be delivered.
>
> It is only through using modern interrealtional tools or such tools that we
> can sort out the positive from the negative and get to the source of all the
> dysfunctioning that religion causes in our world today.
I would say it is only through a fundamental change of heart that we
can do this.
>
> The cults of Judaism, Christianity, Islam and the Bahai' Faith to a lesser
> degree have contributed much that is positive to the world in art, culture,
> and intellectual persuits. Unfortunately they have all contributed much that
> is dark, regressive, evil even. This comes about through the natural
> territoriality that forms around faith communities to give form at first and
> then to protect the orthodox territory, at all costs. Until these artificial
> walls come down , including those of the Baha'i Faith the world would be far
> better off without such systems of belief.
I would see the mixed blessings as a consequence of being human.
Exactly the same factors are at work in non-religious movements too.
The cult of militant atheism in communist societies merely substituted
one evil for another. In my youth I was involved with the local
humanist society, and the behaviour I saw among the membership there
didn't seem that different to what I witnessed in church. There were
just the same jealousies, rivalries and pettiness.
>
> We need to interrelate on a very intimate and human basis and until those
> walls come down that will remain impossible on a gobal scale.
We do indeed need to interrelate. I'm just not so convinced that
jettisoning our deeply-held religious traditions is the only way to do
this.
Brid
>
> Yours Larry
sma...@jam.rr.com
Heather Carr-Rowe wrote:
> And so it goes, we start a thread about the art of interrelationship and it
> degrades to a mud slinging.
> match to do with whose cult is rosier, lol.
I agree that throwing around words like 'cult' is mud-slinging.
> Why don't we use problem solving processes?
Like avoiding such labels?
> We need to interrelate on a very intimate and human basis and until those
> walls come down that will remain impossible on a gobal scale.
So why don't you start by stopping the mud-slinging?
Brid
All Bad wrote:
> Brid wrote:
>
> Welcome back! I trust you've had a spirit filled Christmas and Feast of
> the Concision? I'm guessing that was last week, and the week before,
> perhaps?
Thank you! The only thing that was cut on the Feast of the Concision
though was an excellent Vasilopitta as that day is also the Feast of St
Basil. There are so many feasts in the month of January that I've
almost exhausted my supply of candles lit in pursuance of the cultus of
so many saints.
>
> The answer to the question might turn on how you define "cult".
It does indeed and this is what I was trying to clarify.
>
> You have a different dictionary. We are divided by a common language.
That's right. You say tomayto and I say tomahto, you say world religion
and I say cult. Whoops!
>
> I would hope that all religions, even yours, could support care, and
> veneration.
Of course, didn't we Irish supply St Fiacre as its patron?
Brid
>
> - All Bad
Brid
Michael McKenny wrote:
> Greetings, Brid.
Hello, Michael
> > Cultish behaviour revolves around the cynical use and abuse of
> > individual believers by uncaring authoritarian figures. It also
> > involves non-stop prosleytism to the exclusion of actual service to
> > humanity, the constant seeking of funds, and the arbitrary exercise of
> > power. All religions can indeed manifest these elements, yours
> > certainly does.
>
> Your description of the activities, the deeds of those reprehensible in
> the eyes of Baha'i scripture are very well put.
This is the sense in which I personally experienced the Baha'i Faith as
a cult. I thought I was joining a mature world religion and instead
found myself in an organization ultimately focused on self-promotion to
the exclusion of any genuine interest in the personal or spiritual
development of the individual believer.
>
> I will again remind people that however understandable is the outrage at
> that sense of betrayal that the cult leaders of Baha'i have done what is
> so contrary to the clear text of the Baha'i scriptures and exerted
> themselves to behave so distantly from the clear instructions, directions,
> their very job description to guide harmoniously, with personal and
> institutional humility,
It is interesting that you mention humility, it is the one virtue I
noticed most absent within Baha'i.
>realizing the grand universal nature of the
> welcoming, accepting and all embracing faith it is their duty to serve,
> taking the example of the precious life of Abdu'l Baha, though updated to
> apply to this very different age, opening up Baha'i far more than even he
> felt able -- notwithstanding this heart rending discovery that those who
> were supposed to tread in his universalist footsteps, his open mindedness,
> his heart warming all-embracing nature, and, in obedience to Baha'u'llah's
> teaching to live according to this more globally alive age, to go further,
> to maintain the balanced, the ever cutting edge and moderate principles of
> a spiritual entity encompassing humanity, these guys have sought to insist
> on their narrow, their arrogant and their cultish dogmas, control and
> exclusionary power, notwithstanding all this demonization has no place
> within Baha'i.
Unfortunately the demonization of others does have a place within
Baha'i. The power struggles concerning the leadership succession showed
these heart-warming all-embracing Baha'i central figures had limits on
their accepting natures. They enjoined shunning as a religious duty.
>
> And! Baha'u'llah does not seek to belittle anyone. He does not intend to
> demean anyone. He does not come to destroy anything.
In view of Baha'u'llah's treatment of his own half-brother those claims
don't ring true. He doesn't seem to have any problem about belittling
and demeaning his opponents.
>He instead shines the
> light of a more brilliant understanding upon all. He instead demonstrates
> that individual souls are more precious than many have hitherto
> understood.
With respect, Michael, that is not clear to me. I don't see where
Baha'u'llah demonstrates a unique understanding of the human condition
in general or the individual soul in particular at all. He wants us to
fear God, to recognize his own claims, to appreciate how much he
suffered and woe betide us if we don't. What's so uniquely wonderful
about that?
> He instead informs everyone that, for example, acting in the
> manner of cult leaders is not worthy of the members of the Universal House
> of Justice. He seeks to lift them above arrogant insistence that the few
> dwellers of a little puddle say they believe anything at all, reasonable
> or not, spiritual or the contrary, if they are told this by an infallible
> perfect committee, or fearfully keep silence; the Source of Guidance for a
> maturing humanity is a creation far above such cult control, deserving
> global respect, esteem and appreciation, as a result of its action, its
> deeds, its living a universalist, a global, an inclusive, a harmonious, a
> mature, a wise, a spiritual, a Baha'i life.
>
> Thrive, Red
I'm sorry to repeat myself but he recommends shunning as a religious
duty. If his religion really was supposed to be all these wonderful
things then why devise a covenant which by its very nature was going to
prevent it from being truly inclusive and all-embracing? I've never
quite got that.
Brid
All Bad
>
> Of course, didn't we Irish supply St Fiacre as its patron?
>
Since you mention Satint Fiacre, please pardon my manners for not
wishing 'to your health'.
Slan!
- All Bad
wahid...@gmail.com
>Arabic translation in the future. I believe the women in the East will
>feel very encouraged to know that Western women are promoting a woman
>from their own part of the world
Actually they will not. They will see it as yet another attempt to
appropriate the icons and figures of their culture and lifeworld by the
racist white elite in order to control them.
I do hope your book is translated into Arabic. When it is, you have
permanently sealed your fate.
W
wahid...@gmail.com
interrelationality to the white man has always meant the wholesale
subjugation, appropriation, trivialization of the sacred space of and
eventual destruction of non-white European cultures and peoples. For
the past 500+ years the white European has unleashed a genocidal
holocaust upon non-white, non-European peoples (far worse than what the
Mongol hoards did), who are now, alhamdullillah, beginning to take back
their own once again. I cite the examples of the trend in elections in
South America to the Left as my evidence. Finally a bona fide Inca has
taken the reigns of power in a South American country.
The day the white European makes serious amends, especially when he
pays wholesale reparations to the Afircans it not only enslaved but
whose continent it has destroyed and annihilated, and when it pays even
greater reparations for the indigenous cultures and civilizations of
the Americas and Australasia it unleashed a 500+ year genocidal
holocaust against, is the day the white European man is in any position
to be talking about interrelationality. When the white European man
talks about interrelationality, in the face of what his forefathers
actually did, without acknowledging or even deigning to apologize for
what his forefathers did - and what he continues to do in subtle and
more insidious ways to this day - makes the white European man a
hypocrite, which he has always been!
Malcolm X (rahimatullah 'aleyhi) once made the poignant observation
about white Liberals and progressives, that whenever they get the truth
about the injustices their race has committed against non-white
peoples, they begin singing "kumbaya" and make such pleas as are now
being made about interrelationality.
That white Europeans can dictate to non-white peoples about the
possession of (more environmentally friendly) nuclear energy, when the
white European devil itself not only possesses them, but has detonated
nuclear devices upon non-white European peoples, speaks volumes about
who the white European elite actually serves.
No peace without justice! No "interrationality" without the payment of
reparations to Africa and the indigenous peoples of the Americas!
AmeriKKKa and Europe out of the Middle East!
Wahid Azal
Finnegan's Wake
<wahid...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1137804464....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Actually they will not. They will see it as yet another attempt to
> appropriate the icons and figures of their culture and lifeworld by the
> racist white elite in order to control them.
I'm sure that you are not including the Irish in that ... frankly, we have
more than enough icons and figures of our own.
> I do hope your book is translated into Arabic. When it is, you have
> permanently sealed your fate.
There's something constructive for you to do in the long winter evenings
>
> W
>
Heather Carr-Rowe
If you had checked this thread is was Brendan that first mentioned cult and
I who admitted :
To tell the truth Brendan I don't really know if I will ever not be a
cultist, when you are indoctrinated as a child there are some things that
get right into your synapses that just never go away. Some of those things
are worthy, some are definitely not."
Sometimes admitting our common humanity is the best place to begin.
I have had wonderful experiences as a Baha'i and I have most troubling
experiences as well. They all relate to how we relate as a community, just
as how humanity relates on the grander scale as a world community.
Just as Brid related these issues are not in any way restricted to religion
but cut across all inter-human relations whether they be political, social,
or civil.
For humanity to move ahead better tools need to be improvised to aid better
and more peaceful relations, this stands as true of religion as it does of
government, and other general societal issues.
My point in beginning this thread is that there is an art to healthy
interrelationships and it begins with the building of better communication
instead of building bigger and better walls, walls such as the 8 meter high
concrete wall that the Israelis have built around the birth place of Christ
in order to protect people from radical Islamists. The Irony of the wall of
Bethlehem is stark and revealing.
Yours Larry
Finnegan's Wake
<sma...@jam.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1137774913.2...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Heather Carr-Rowe wrote:
>> And so it goes, we start a thread about the art of interrelationship and
>> it
>> degrades to a mud slinging.
>> match to do with whose cult is rosier, lol.
>
> I agree that throwing around words like 'cult' is mud-slinging.
It's not the mud slinging that depresses or irritates you. What really
grieves you is that, like Doughnut Doug, you cannot comprehend how honest
principled people could fail to agree with your and his views of the BF.
>> Why don't we use problem solving processes?
>
> Like avoiding such labels?
That's only a part of it ... and the first part at that. However before
preaching to others about the labels they apply, look to your own and
dispense with them - such terms as "diseased" and "spiritually corrosive"
when applied to those who disagree must also come down.
>> We need to interrelate on a very intimate and human basis and until
>> those
>> walls come down that will remain impossible on a gobal scale.
>
> So why don't you start by stopping the mud-slinging?
OK! So you'll write to Haifa and invite their contribution to this process.
>
sma...@jam.rr.com
> grieves you is that, like Doughnut Doug, you cannot comprehend how honest
> principled people could fail to agree with your and his views of the BF.
Nope, that is perfectly comprehensible. What is less comprehensible is
why people who decided they didn't agree with the Baha'i Faith can't
just walk away.
Larry Rowe
human being to another with the skewed intention of improving them,
making their lives better by attempting to make them more like our
lives. Many of those deeds where done by religionists, or more correctly
political forces in the guise of religion, explicitly for the intention
of subjugation and exploitation.
Living as I have in first nations communities for the past 13 years I
have seen first hand what the hand of the European colonoizer has done
to first peoples. A harm that will take many generations to heal and
which will never truly go away.
We of the West have a huge karmic debt to pay and we are only now
beginning to see what the magnitude of that debt will be. Unfortunately
the exploited will suffer as well.
Yours Larry
Primal Point
From: "Finnegan's Wake" <grim_reaper_mk2M...@btinternet.com> - Find
messages by this author
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 02:25:51 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Sat, Jan 21 2006 10:25 am
Subject: Re: The Art of interrelationship
<wahidaza...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1137804464....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
---------------------
So Reaper you are sicing the dog on me for an indirect hit.....why are
you so bothered?
Q*
star...@yahoo.com
Larry: Some of the most atrocious and heinous things have been done by
one
human being to another with the skewed intention of improving them,
making their lives better by attempting to make them more like our
lives. Many of those deeds where done by religionists, or more
correctly
political forces in the guise of religion, explicitly for the intention
of subjugation and exploitation.
Starr*: This 'skewed intention' of which you speak has been done to
every population for eons upon eons and in many forms. Often these
'skewed intentions' are carried out by force, entryism, coersion or by
bait and switch techniques. What we are standing for in this day is to
protect the people to have 'choice' in all matters that concern their
lives.
Larry: Living as I have in first nations communities for the past 13
years I
have seen first hand what the hand of the European colonoizer has done
to first peoples. A harm that will take many generations to heal and
which will never truly go away.
Starr*: Here is Australia the Government took the white looking
Aboriginal children away from their natural families to live with
foster white families with the idea of integrating Aborigines into the
colonizer's society....with the skewed intention of bettering their
lives. Now had this so called good intention been carried out by giving
'choice' to the people instead of forcing it upon them, then the damage
that ensued would not have been so severe.
When I was living on American Indian Reservations I noticed that the
people allowed for their children to attend the white man's
Universities, but the young had to come home and be with their own
people after every year away so as to maintain the Indian values and
family relationships --- but at this stage there was that 'choice'.
Larry: We of the West have a huge karmic debt to pay and we are only
now
beginning to see what the magnitude of that debt will be. Unfortunately
the exploited will suffer as well.
Starr*: Global colonization is wreaking the pains of that karmic debt
(as you suggested needs paying) and the children are paying for the
sins of their forefathers. No longer can people in the west know when
bombs will blow them and their way of life apart. Again, this kind of
colonization of 'skewed intention' is taking place by force and
entryism rather than allowing for 'choice' to be the operating
principle.
It is shocking that the West is intefering in the East by force rather
than by offering choice. It is understandable, however, that the West
feels threatened by the money (where money means power and influence)
that Eastern oil represents to them. They are concerned that Eastern
influence will dictate their lives. Oil money translates to power and
force to them and they feel 'choice' will no longer be possible. I do
remeber living in Hawaii when the Japanese took control of most things
because the Japanese migrating to Hawaii were very wealthy and had
access to large amounts of money. Likewise the East wants to maintain
control of their oil. It does seem that the world resouces do need
governing by an interational neutral body - as the bahai principle
suggests. Rather than continue to use force the people will make the
'choice' to share the resources. As long as oil means money, and money
dictates who is in charge the operation of force rather than choice
prevails.
It was very shocking to have so many of our citizens blown up at our
nearby holiday resort of Bali, most of them young people who know
nothing about what their forefathers have done in colonizing Australia.
Isn't it time for humanity to move beyond wanting peoples to pay for
what their forefathers hands have wrought - which has mostly been on
the advice of the cabal leaders?
"People are sick and tired of being pitted against each other when
there's already so much suffering and the Earth itself is under
assault. They're ready to reconnect and honor the life we share. That
is the great adventure of our time."
- Joanna Macy, systems thinker, author and spiritual social change
agent
Starr*
Finnegan's Wake
> I'm sorry to repeat myself but he recommends shunning as a religious
> duty. If his religion really was supposed to be all these wonderful
> things then why devise a covenant which by its very nature was going to
> prevent it from being truly inclusive and all-embracing? I've never
> quite got that.
Ah! A bit on the slow side ... learning difficulties perchance? Just as
well you left ... the friends have no place for those who do not appreciate
the finer things in life like the ... friends!
Finnegan's Wake
<sma...@jam.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1137820549.4...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Possibly because they are honest and principled and hate to see others
falling victim to the same deception?
If you can't understand that, which is pretty basic, what is the point of
your being here? Indeed if this is the baseline of your argument ... you
need a break and they need a better quarterback.
Finnegan's Wake
"Primal Point" <tahirihqu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1137892028.4...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>> I do hope your book is translated into Arabic. When it is, you have
>> permanently sealed your fate.
>
>
> There's something constructive for you to do in the long winter
> evenings
> ---------------------
>
> So Reaper you are sicing the dog on me for an indirect hit.....why are
> you so bothered?
Who's bothered? Can I not suggest something constructive to occupy his mind
during the winter evenings without your getting your cacks ruffled?
Michael McKenny
"Brid" (bridci...@yahoo.com) writes:
> This is the sense in which I personally experienced the Baha'i Faith as
> a cult. I thought I was joining a mature world religion and instead
> found myself in an organization ultimately focused on self-promotion to
> the exclusion of any genuine interest in the personal or spiritual
> development of the individual believer.
Many thanks for your comments. Of course, there are a variety of possible
responses to growing awareness that things aren't what they are held to
be, that the words used don't match up to deeds.
>> I will again remind people that however understandable is the outrage at
>> that sense of betrayal that the cult leaders of Baha'i have done what is
>> so contrary to the clear text of the Baha'i scriptures and exerted
>> themselves to behave so distantly from the clear instructions, directions,
>> their very job description to guide harmoniously, with personal and
>> institutional humility,
>
> It is interesting that you mention humility, it is the one virtue I
> noticed most absent within Baha'i.
As I recall it, ideally humility is one of the most important virtues a
Baha'i can manifest, one of the identiying features that really s/he is
living the life, and a number of key exemplar figures are mentioned as
being humble. If present day individuals and institutions behave in a
manner showing they've got a lot to add to their humility quotient, all
otta recognize this fact and work at it, understanding clearly that the
lack of humility is a deficiency and not a true Baha'i characteristic.
>
>>realizing the grand universal nature of the
>> welcoming, accepting and all embracing faith it is their duty to serve,
>> taking the example of the precious life of Abdu'l Baha, though updated to
>> apply to this very different age, opening up Baha'i far more than even he
>> felt able -- notwithstanding this heart rending discovery that those who
>> were supposed to tread in his universalist footsteps, his open mindedness,
>> his heart warming all-embracing nature, and, in obedience to Baha'u'llah's
>> teaching to live according to this more globally alive age, to go further,
>> to maintain the balanced, the ever cutting edge and moderate principles of
>> a spiritual entity encompassing humanity, these guys have sought to insist
>> on their narrow, their arrogant and their cultish dogmas, control and
>> exclusionary power, notwithstanding all this demonization has no place
>> within Baha'i.
>
> Unfortunately the demonization of others does have a place within
> Baha'i. The power struggles concerning the leadership succession showed
> these heart-warming all-embracing Baha'i central figures had limits on
> their accepting natures. They enjoined shunning as a religious duty.
The sacred text also states that we are to be concerned with our own
generation. I believe it's clear that it is advantageous to individual and
collective spiritual health to admit humbly that our perception of
infallibility (as individuals and as institutions) is not in the best
interests of the well being of this generation. So, regardless of what
historians come to believe was the actual course of events more than a
century ago, or whenever, today it is very possible to reach higher, to
more adequately, ideally and beneficially live the life than some can
assert even the Central Figures of Baha'i failed to do.
>>
>> And! Baha'u'llah does not seek to belittle anyone. He does not intend to
>> demean anyone. He does not come to destroy anything.
>
> In view of Baha'u'llah's treatment of his own half-brother those claims
> don't ring true. He doesn't seem to have any problem about belittling
> and demeaning his opponents.
>
The text and the examples of Baha'i, scripture and history are as
intricate as the usual human tapestry. The opportunity in the present and
in the future, in Baha'i, as elsewhere in human endeavour is to reach
high, not accepting that denigrations impose limits upon succeeding
generations. it is a Baha'i teaching that one focuses on the light and
that the darkness has no positive existence. This allows Baha'is, as well
as each other human, to look to what is worthy and to attempt to live
according to that and not be deflected by what is unworthy.
>>He instead shines the
>> light of a more brilliant understanding upon all. He instead demonstrates
>> that individual souls are more precious than many have hitherto
>> understood.
>
> With respect, Michael, that is not clear to me. I don't see where
> Baha'u'llah demonstrates a unique understanding of the human condition
> in general or the individual soul in particular at all.
Oh, I'm happy either way. If someone wants to say others also had a
universalist, global all embracing awareness of humanity and each soul,
that's fine by me. If some Baha'is wish to live as true members of the
human species, identifying as such more essentially even than they
identify as Baha'is and attribute that human centred awareness to
Baha'u'llah, I'm happy with that, too. It's not important whether or not
Baha'u'llah is seen as originating this thought, this perceptive teaching,
this peace creating understanding. What's important is to actually attain
that awareness and live that life and truly identify as human and not
something less. I believe such identification is possible within Baha'i.
More separately.
Thrive, Red
Finnegan's Wake
<sma...@jam.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1137820549.4...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
PS Why ignore the rest of the post ... or is it too difficult ... or are you
not allowed to respond?
Michael McKenny
"Brid" (bridci...@yahoo.com) writes:
>> He instead informs everyone that, for example, acting in the
>> manner of cult leaders is not worthy of the members of the Universal House
>> of Justice. He seeks to lift them above arrogant insistence that the few
>> dwellers of a little puddle say they believe anything at all, reasonable
>> or not, spiritual or the contrary, if they are told this by an infallible
>> perfect committee, or fearfully keep silence; the Source of Guidance for a
>> maturing humanity is a creation far above such cult control, deserving
>> global respect, esteem and appreciation, as a result of its action, its
>> deeds, its living a universalist, a global, an inclusive, a harmonious, a
>> mature, a wise, a spiritual, a Baha'i life.
>
> I'm sorry to repeat myself but he recommends shunning as a religious
> duty. If his religion really was supposed to be all these wonderful
> things then why devise a covenant which by its very nature was going to
> prevent it from being truly inclusive and all-embracing? I've never
> quite got that.
Many thanks for your comments. Baha'i does teach that reason is balanced
with spirituality, faith and science can agree, that we are not to remain
trapped in superstitious dead ends. There are solutions to such problems.
Fanaticism has been condemned by Baha'u'llah. He opposed fundamentalism.
He taught moderation in all things, and he taught that each sincere
believer was to look with her/his own eyes.
Along with passages authorizing shunning are others commanding fellowship
with the followers of all religions, and others speaking of an ever
advancing civilization, and others encouraging the humility to recognize
personal and institutional short comings and correct these.
There is no absolute impediment to fixing this problem of anachronistic
adversarial attitudes, living more ideally a life of fellowship and
behaving in a manner consistent with inhabiting the Twenty First Century.
First, comes the intellectual and spiritual awareness that really all are
human first, that senses of separation and supremecy are fallacious and
that all can harmoniously get along.
Then comes efforts, prayerful, intuitive, rational and co-operative to
rise above the short comings of previous generations (even those
associated with the most revered names) and instead dwell in a world where
it is the examples and teachings and spirit most conducive to that ideal
of Baha'i and others of universal harmony.
Each objection, each attempt to freeze this planet in the misdeeds of
earlier generations can be addressed, and each individual, group and
community is empowered to choose what is beneficial, healthy and worthy.
Thanks again for everything. As I see it, free choice is an aspect of the
human condition. There is no real blockage to living worthily, only
imagined or contrived excuses. Shining upon all the light of human
potential is the first step to getting out of the ruts, standing on the
moderate middle path and beginning to move into the mature future of the
human species.
> Brid
Thrive, Red
Heather Carr-Rowe
largest reserves left in the world.
From Wikepedia :"Tar sands deposits are found all over the world, with the
largest deposits located in Venezuela and Alberta, Canada. While only
recently judged a proven reserve of oil (that is, economically extractable
at current technology levels), tar sands represent as much as 66% of the
world's deposits of oil, with 34% (286 kmł or 1.8 trillion barrels) in the
Venezuelan Orinoco tar sands deposit, 32% (270 kmł or 1.7 trillion barrels)
in Canada's Athabasca Tar Sands deposit and the remaining 33% (278 kmł or
1.75 trillion barrels) in conventional oil, much of it in Saudi Arabia and
other Middle-Eastern countries."
So it looks like American military influence will inevitably come to
control these areas of the world because as the resource depletes the price
will continue to rise until it is only the very wealthy who will be
utilizing it.
I just saw the movie The Motorcycle Diaries written by Che Guervara and
produced by Robert Redford. Unfortunately it will most likely take a man
like Che with the hootspa to stand up and say enough is enough, but
unfortunately as well it is just such men that are the first to get hammered
down when they point own the worlds inequities and injustices.
It is hard to see a future that is not like the future that John Carre
envisions, where a total breakdown of civil society forces mankind to mend
it ways, which will force mankind to have to utilize interrelationship in
order to survive at all.
One can always pray that the paradigm shift will come before the crash but
perhaps that is only wishful thinking.
Yours Larry
star...@yahoo.com
Heather Carr-Rowe wrote:
> It really all boils down to oil, oil from tar sands which contain the
> largest reserves left in the world.
>
> So it looks like American military influence will inevitably come to
> control these areas of the world because as the resource depletes the price
> will continue to rise until it is only the very wealthy who will be
> utilizing it.
>
> It is hard to see a future that is not like the future that John Carre
> envisions, where a total breakdown of civil society forces mankind to mend
> it ways, which will force mankind to have to utilize interrelationship in
> order to survive at all.
Some of the Baha'i Writings talk about what will happen to the
countries who have turned their backs on the Word of God.
Tahirih was the Word of God/ess and the Bab gave the Word in the Bayan
which caused me think about the people who caused their martyrdom (Iraq
and Iran)
Has the USA been selected to carry out the punishment which Baha'u'llah
predicted in the following tablet through the enticement of chasing
oil?
1 O CONCOURSE of Persian divines! In My name ye have seized the reins
of men, and occupy the seats of honour by reason of your relation to
Me. When I revealed Myself, however, ye turned aside, and committed
what hath caused the tears of such as have recognized Me to flow.
Erelong will all that ye possess perish, and your glory be turned into
the most wretched abasement, and ye shall behold the punishment for
what ye have wrought, as decreed by God, the Ordainer, the All-Wise.
Proclamation of Bahá'u'lláh, pp. 101-102:
I am with you when your write:
> One can always pray that the paradigm shift will come before the crash but
> perhaps that is only wishful thinking.
When I look at the predictions they seem to say that the meek can
inherit the earth if they make the right choices. So here's to making a
difference in the NOW.
Starr*
Michael McKenny
"Heather Carr-Rowe" (ro...@northwestel.net) writes:
>
> One can always pray that the paradigm shift will come before the crash but
> perhaps that is only wishful thinking.
Green assessed that humanity was presentient based on the definition that
sentience is awareness, consciousness, fundamental identification and the
humans do not fundamentally identify as humans, but as members of a
generally contentious subset of the species.
My initial assessment of the potential for humanity ever to become
sentient was one in one hundred thousand. However, the consequences of
remaining presentient are unpleasant enough that exerting effort to
convince humans that they have it in them to overcome their contentious
identification as something less than human does make sense.
> Yours Larry
Thrive, Red
Michael McKenny
Many thanks for your question. Let me answer in general and then
specifically.
In general people are not walking away because they don't disagree with
the Baha'i Faith; they do feel awesomely hurt by the fact that there has
occurred so devastating an attack against the Baha'i Faith from those
wearing titles, those who have transmuted the ideal of the Source of All
Good into just a far right fundamentalist clique straining every nerve to
oppose the Baha'i Faith and pass off their fundamentalist notions as if
this void was really all there is to Baha'i.
Personally, Green, much closer in time to Baha'i thought than am I, felt
that the thought patterns of Baha'i were too inflexible for him to do
anything consistent with the Baha'i concept that there is no
identification of being Baha'i outside of the Baha'i community, that the
UHJ is a major aspect of identification as Baha'i and thus their blatantly
erroneous identification of Baha'is as being outside the community could
not be accepted.
At present, the passage of time permits swallowing the uncomfortable
realization that the alleged source of all good is instead the centre of
the greatest opposition to the Baha'i Faith and that the fundamentalism
being promoted by the UHJ as well as those misguided enough to follow its
lead can now be identified as something having nothing to do with the
Baha' Faith.
The Canadian National assembly did prepare believers for the fact of such
fundamentalist opposition, and the only surprising thing, the very
shocking one, is that it was internal, directed by the very leaders of
Baha'i itself.
Okay, granted, that has happened. Now, effort can be made to see whether
instead of fulminating, howling and contending on that basis, actually
responding in the Baha'i manner will be successful.
Thrive, Red
wahid...@gmail.com
quoting from Baha'u-Shaytan incriminates you further as the ao-hole
hack that I knew you were all along.
W