Republicans On Right-Winged Hate-Radio Promote Torture
AbelM...@webtv.net
transparency. This, from one of the most secretive administrations
ever. He also said that torture is not an American tradition. Yet, it
is his policies that have led to the rise of tortures, not only in Iraq,
but thru out the world. And if you listen to right-winged hate radio,
the same people who have been visciously/repeatedly trashed Clinton for
about a decade now, they are defending the concept of torturing people.
The drug addicted hateful psychopath who is the standard bearer of the
Republican party, Rush Limbaugh, he said that what we saw in the
pictures of what happened in the Abu Ghraib prison was about "American
soldiers just having a good time and letting off steam". This is what
he said.
Heil Hannity said that the Abu Ghraib scene was "no worse than
fraternity hazing".
O'Reilly said that what was done to the prisoners is no big deal, he
said that releasing those pictures was a bigger crime.
Oh, all of a sudden, widespread torture is now not a big deal any more.
Of course, what these Nazi minded Fascist Repugs are completely ignoring
is the fact that many innocent Iraqis have been raped and tortured to
death while in American custody. It may not be a big deal to the the
sick Repug brain, but fortunately, most of the rest of the world does
not think like them. So this business of torturing people is NOT going
to stand. The rest of the world community, and the more intelligent
sector of the American voting public is NOT going to tolerate it any
more.
How can America be safer when Bush, and his very sick Republican mind,
has more than quadrupled the number of fanatics all over the world that
hate us to death?
Abel Malcolm
NO ONE DIED WHEN CLINTON LIED
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Educate yourself & go to these links:
www.moveon.org & www.salon.com & www.buzzflash.com & www.democrats.org &
www.bushwatch.com & www.americanprogress.org & www.democracynow.org &
http://www.nhgazette.com/cgi-bin/NHGstore.cgi?user_action=list&category=%20NEWS%3B%20Chickenhawks%3B%20Chickenhawk%20Headquarters
William Lenz
<AbelM...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:19581-40...@storefull-3136.bay.webtv.net...
> Bush has gone on Arabic TV and told them that our country believes in
> transparency. This, from one of the most secretive administrations
> ever.
Actually its probably one of the most open administrations ever. In reality
its not that its secretive but that the attack on it from the left is
actualy probalby far worse than even the Clinton attacks were from the
right.
> He also said that torture is not an American tradition. Yet, it
> is his policies that have led to the rise of tortures, not only in Iraq,
> but thru out the world. And if you listen to right-winged hate radio,
> the same people who have been visciously/repeatedly trashed Clinton for
> about a decade now, they are defending the concept of torturing people.
Most civilized people know that information gained though torture is at best
questionable and more often not accurate. Torture is not a reliable method
of gaining information, but a method of owning or possessing minds.
> The drug addicted hateful psychopath who is the standard bearer of the
> Republican party,
First error on your part.
Your inability to seperate idelogy from party.
Republican does not dictate Conservative
Just as
Democrat does not dictate Liberal
Although at this time these are the dominant voices within these parties
> Rush Limbaugh, he said that what we saw in the
> pictures of what happened in the Abu Ghraib prison was about "American
> soldiers just having a good time and letting off steam". This is what
> he said.
And that is his opinion just as you have yours nither can claim this is the
truth or fact, its only an opinion.
In the end, thru the law "when two possabilities are equal the simplest
answer is typically correct" then Rush's answer is a lot simpler to believe
than some complex black secret/secret ops possability where the MIB group
came in and told them to do this.
> Heil Hannity said that the Abu Ghraib scene was "no worse than
> fraternity hazing".
I think both of these comments were made before they were made aware of some
of the more extreem possabilitise of what may have happened in there were
confermed as factual.
None the less I would agree with Hannity there, need I bring up the football
camp thing in PA and the broomstick handles. Or the cheerleader thing where
a few girls went to the hospital with broken bones. Lets not forget the
parties of the sports hopefulls in collages that came to light.
Just as I'm sure he didn't agree with these things and should be punished in
a similar way, the fact is they exist and have existed within our society
among the undisiplined brats of our society.
> O'Reilly said that what was done to the prisoners is no big deal, he
> said that releasing those pictures was a bigger crime.
Again if I recall the context of his comments it was based upon what he saw
within those pictures. Hell when I first saw the pictures I thought those
involved were saddistic assholes who got carried away with the power they
were given. What was uncertain and what remains still uncertain is what the
reasoning was behind these acts. Were they appart of information gathering
process or were they just the acts of saddistic assholes.
> Oh, all of a sudden, widespread torture is now not a big deal any more.
First there is no evidence that this is widespread at least in our ranks.
Second it is a big deal in the context of what was actually stated and not
the sentance you pulled out of these men's opinions.
> Of course, what these Nazi minded Fascist Repugs are completely ignoring
> is the fact that many innocent Iraqis have been raped and tortured to
> death while in American custody.
The last I heard there was 1 case of possable rape, and 2 cases of murder
both of which are being brought to "JUSTICE" as we speak. At this time
because they are still under the umbrella of Justice. What cannot be stated
is whether these events were the acts of random sick assholes or apart of
informating gathering policy.
> It may not be a big deal to the the
> sick Repug brain, but fortunately, most of the rest of the world does
> not think like them.
And in what hole have you been living in.
We walked out of the UN the other day because one of the biggest offenders
of torture/murder/rape/and dismemberment of its citizens was being voted in
to the UN councle on Human Rights. What sense does that kind of stupidity
make. There are countries all over this world who's leaders and SOP is to
impose what you saw in those pictures and worse upon there citizens. Two of
those nations whos SOP was to do these kinds of things, we are now in the
process of trying to rebuild. Maybe you should show the same outrage in
support of what we're trying to do as you show in what may end up being just
the acts of a few of our citizens who will face the "justice" system and
punished according to there crimes. At least we see this as a crime one that
should be punished.
> So this business of torturing people is NOT going
> to stand. The rest of the world community, and the more intelligent
> sector of the American voting public is NOT going to tolerate it any
> more.
> How can America be safer when Bush, and his very sick Republican mind,
> has more than quadrupled the number of fanatics all over the world that
> hate us to death?
The recient state department report paints a differant picture when it come
to terrorism.
None the less it was a conflict we and the world would have had to face at
some point in time, I'd rather face it now in this generation than put it
off and let our children face it, with the possability of an even larger
event drawing us into it. Terrorism exists, terrorist acts were on the rise,
terrorists were being recruted and increasing, and all before President Bush
even stepped into office. Some nations hated us some liked us all before
President Bush even stepped into office. Whether you agree with his approch
to the problem and/or it's solution or not is not relevant for in the end
they existed they were growing and thats the truth and facts. Now unless you
have a better way of making the terrorists love us that doesn't involve me
and the world having to get on our knees and bow to Mecca 3 times a day (or
whatever) this is the solution on the table now.
As a leader within the world there will always be those that hate us and
those that don't, and we will always be unsafe. As long as there are idiots
like you who for political reasons are willing to turn a blind eye to real
human suffering, until it becomes a wepon you can turn on your political
enemy this world and the US will never become safe.
I saw an interview with a terrorist once, his reasoning for wanting to kill
us wasn't because of anythng we did, but because of what we didn't do. His
people suffered much worse wholesale killing and rape and what did we do, we
agreed with a UN resolution condemning what was being done....that really
helped.
>
> Abel Malcolm
>
> NO ONE DIED WHEN CLINTON LIED
Thousands died thorough terrorists attacks durring the Clinton years, need I
remind us as well of the "Black Hawk down" event. If all GW had done was to
toss a few missles into some tents and then maybe up our security at
airports sure there may have been no more events in the US after 9-11 as we
have seen. Would that in the end have made us any safer? How long would you
have had us turn our backs on this growing problem as Clinton did?
Bill
Dan Listermann
"William Lenz" <bill...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Tv5nc.2042$KE6...@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> <AbelM...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:19581-40...@storefull-3136.bay.webtv.net...
> > Bush has gone on Arabic TV and told them that our country believes in
> > transparency. This, from one of the most secretive administrations
> > ever.
>
> Actually its probably one of the most open administrations ever. In
reality
> its not that its secretive but that the attack on it from the left is
> actualy probalby far worse than even the Clinton attacks were from the
> right.
You may be right. The attacks on Clinton were about fibbing about blow
jobs. The attacks on Little Bush are about screwing up wars, a far more
serious matter calling for far more serious attention.
Mani Deli
<d...@listermann.com> wrote:
>You may be right. The attacks on Clinton were about fibbing about blow
>jobs. The attacks on Little Bush are about screwing up wars, a far more
>serious matter calling for far more serious attention.
>
For the average majority stupid American blow jobs are a far far
greater concern. That is why the thieves in control can slowly advance
all toward fascism.
No skill no art!
Tired of Modern Art? check http://www3.sympatico.ca/manideli/
Mani Deli
By FOX BUTTERFIELD
hysical and sexual abuse of prisoners, similar to what has been
uncovered in Iraq, takes place in American prisons with little public
knowledge or concern, according to corrections officials, inmates and
human rights advocates.
In Pennsylvania and some other states, inmates are routinely stripped
in front of other inmates before being moved to a new prison or a new
unit within their prison. In Arizona, male inmates at the Maricopa
County jail in Phoenix are made to wear women's pink underwear as a
form of humiliation.
At Virginia's Wallens Ridge maximum security prison, new inmates have
reported being forced to wear black hoods, in theory to keep them from
spitting on guards, and said they were often beaten and cursed at by
guards and made to crawl.
The corrections experts say that some of the worst abuses have
occurred in Texas, whose prisons were under a federal consent decree
during much of the time President Bush was governor because of
crowding and violence by guards against inmates. Judge William Wayne
Justice of Federal District Court imposed the decree after finding
that guards were allowing inmate gang leaders to buy and sell other
inmates as slaves for sex.
The experts also point out that the man who directed the reopening of
the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq last year and trained the guards there
resigned under pressure as director of the Utah Department of
Corrections in 1997 after an inmate died while shackled to a
restraining chair for 16 hours. The inmate, who suffered from
schizophrenia, was kept naked the whole time.
The Utah official, Lane McCotter, later became an executive of a
private prison company, one of whose jails was under investigation by
the Justice Department when he was sent to Iraq as part of a team of
prison officials, judges, prosecutors and police chiefs picked by
Attorney General John Ashcroft to rebuild the country's criminal
justice system.
Mr. McCotter, 63, is director of business development for Management &
Training Corporation, a Utah-based firm that says it is the
third-largest private prison company, operating 13 prisons. In 2003,
the company's operation of the Santa Fe jail was criticized by the
Justice Department and the New Mexico Department of Corrections for
unsafe conditions and lack of medical care for inmates. No further
action was taken.
In response to a request for an interview on Friday, Mr. McCotter said
in a written statement that he had left Iraq last September, just
after a ribbon-cutting ceremony to open Abu Ghraib.
"I was not involved in any aspect of the facility's operation after
that time," he said.
Nationwide, during the last quarter century, over 40 state prison
systems were under some form of court order, for brutality, crowding,
poor food or lack of medical care, said Marc Mauer, assistant director
of the Sentencing Project, a research and advocacy group in Washington
that calls for alternatives to incarceration.
In a 1999 opinion, Judge Justice wrote of the situation in Texas,
"Many inmates credibly testified to the existence of violence, rape
and extortion in the prison system and about their own suffering from
such abysmal conditions."
In a case that began in 2000, a prisoner at the Allred Unit in Wichita
Falls, Tex., said he was repeatedly raped by other inmates, even after
he appealed to guards for help, and was allowed by prison staff to be
treated like a slave, being bought and sold by various prison gangs in
different parts of the prison. The inmate, Roderick Johnson, has filed
suit against the Texas Department of Criminal Justice and the case is
now before the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit in
New Orleans, said Kara Gotsch, public policy coordinator for the
National Prison Project of the American Civil Liberties Union, which
is representing Mr. Johnson.
Asked what Mr. Bush knew about abuse in Texas prisons while he was
governor, Trent Duffy, a White House spokesman, said the problems in
American prisons were not comparable to the abuses exposed at Abu
Ghraib.
The corrections experts are careful to say they do not know to what
extent the brutality and humiliation at Abu Ghraib were intended to
break the prisoners for interrogation or were just random acts.
But Chase Riveland, a former secretary of corrections in Washington
State and Colorado and now a prison consultant based near Seattle,
said, "In some jurisdictions in the United States there is a prison
culture that tolerates violence, and it's been there a long time."
This culture has been made worse by the quadrupling of the number of
prison and jail inmates to 2.1 million over the last 25 years, which
has often resulted in crowding, he said. The problems have been
compounded by the need to hire large numbers of inexperienced and
often undertrained guards, Mr. Riveland said.
Some states have a hard time recruiting enough guards, Mr. Riveland
said, particularly Arizona, where the pay is very low. "Retention in
these states is a big problem and so unqualified people get promoted
to be lieutenants or captains in a few months," he said.
Something like this process may have happened in Iraq, where the
Americans tried to start a new prison system with undertrained
military police officers from Army reserve units, Mr. Riveland
suggested.
When Mr. Ashcroft announced the appointment of the team to restore
Iraq's criminal justice system last year, including Mr. McCotter, he
said, "Now all Iraqis can taste liberty in their native land, and we
will help make that freedom permanent by assisting them to establish
an equitable criminal justice system based on the rule of law and
standards of basic human rights."
A Justice Department spokeswoman, Monica Goodling, did not return
phone calls on Friday asking why Mr. Ashcroft had chosen Mr. McCotter
even though his firm's operation of the Santa Fe jail had been
criticized by the Justice Department.
Mr. McCotter has a long background in prisons. He had been a military
police officer in Vietnam and had risen to be a colonel in the Army.
His last post was as warden of the Army prison at Fort Leavenworth.
After retiring from the Army, Mr. Cotter was head of the corrections
departments in New Mexico and Texas before taking the job in Utah.
In Utah, in addition to the death of the mentally ill inmate, Mr.
McCotter also came under criticism for hiring a prison psychiatrist
whose medical license was on probation and who was accused of Medicaid
fraud and writing prescriptions for drug addicts.
In an interview with an online magazine, Corrections.com, last
January, Mr. McCotter recalled that of all the prisons in Iraq, Abu
Ghraib "is the only place we agreed as a team was truly closest to an
American prison. They had cell housing and segregation."
But 80 to 90 percent of the prison had been destroyed, so Mr. McCotter
set about rebuilding it, everything from walls and toilets to
handcuffs and soap. He employed 100 Iraqis who had worked in the
prison under Saddam Hussein, and paid for everything with wads of
cash, up to $3 million, that he carried with him.
Another problem, Mr. McCotter quickly discovered, was that the Iraqi
staff, despite some American training, quickly reverted to their old
ways, "shaking down families, shaking down inmates, letting prisoners
buy their way out of prison."
So the American team fired the guards and went with former Iraqi
military personnel. "They didn't have any bad habits and did things
exactly the way we trained them."
Mr. McCotter said he worked closely with American military police
officers at the prison, but he did not give any names.
William Lenz
"Dan Listermann" <d...@listermann.com> wrote in message
news:109pthm...@corp.supernews.com...
Nice attempt as spin.
The focus was on whether this administration was more or less secretive than
other adminstrations. This was the focus of my response. The fact that I
disagreed with the OP's assertion that this administration was more
secretive than any other.
I would agree that questions dealing with the war should be taken far more
seriously. What I want to know is when is the leadership on the liberal left
going to start taking them seriously. There actions and/or attacks such as
the Nazi chants dictate there just playing political games with the lives of
those on both sides of this war. People calling for impeachment of Rumsfeld
without a clue of the facts (what happened and the total scope of what
happened) are just playing politics.
Bill
Dan Listermann
> I would agree that questions dealing with the war should be taken far more
> seriously. What I want to know is when is the leadership on the liberal
left
> going to start taking them seriously.
The leadership of the "liberal left" will take these questions seriously
when the leadership of the "conservative right" can admit mistakes.
William Lenz
What mistakes?
Dan Listermann
Right. . . .
Dan Listermann
> So what your saying is:
> 1 your admitting all this is being done for political reasons and not for
> any serious reason.
> 2 that your willing to play political games with the lives of people on
both
> sides of our conflict because your not getting your way.
>
> I don't buy it.
> All you people seem to know is this political game and asking for Bush or
> any other in leadership to admit to a mistake, is just another one of your
> political games. Another way to attack and play with the lives of real
> people that are living and dying so you can play your games.
Ask Carl Rove about political games.
William Lenz
Thats his job to spin, you and everyone else know what you get from him is
political spin.
William Lenz
So why are you complaining?
Dan Listermann
Right. . . .
Dan Listermann
Well even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while!
JohnAndrew
furiously about "Repugs" and a culture of torture probably
gets in the way of your message. There are probably a lot
of Republicans out there who are not Rush Limbaugh fans,
and who had no idea that the US govt was engaging in
activities like this. Don't lump all of them in with
Rush L and Sean Hannity.
Even worse than Rush and Sean saying that sexual torture
is no big deal, I think, is the general attitude of contempt for other
people and other views that Rush and Sean tend to inculcate
on the air.
I don't listen to either Rush or Sean when I can avoid it,
but I've heard Rush's act a little. He's a brilliant
comedian, with a real gift for mockery, and to
my view what he does is encourage his mostly white and male
listeners to feel contempt and hatred for people who
aren't like them -- for "feminazis," for most black politicians,
for environmental "wackos" who dare to question corporate
America's policies, etc., etc.
Has Rush been as vicious, and as mocking, in his on air
treatments of Arabs as he's been in his
attacks on American political figures he dislikes? Does
he verbally dehumanize Muslim and Iraqi culture as thoroughly
as he casts contempt on, say, the Clinton family and
the environmental "wackos"?
It's when people can view their enemies as subhuman that
they tend to torture them. And Rush L is a master at
conveying that mind set, isn't he?
****
It's
"Dan Listermann" <d...@listermann.com> wrote in message news:<109she4...@corp.supernews.com>...