>It's important to note that in 3 short years, the Bush administration
has reversed 3 decades of laws that have increased environmental
progress.
I have a question for you lefties. After you have succeeded in transforming
the West into another 3rd world region, how do you think all of your complex
and very expensive environmental laws and regulations will continue to be
enforced?
GP
This seems like a great question, except it's based on a very
questionable assumption.
Who's to say that the West is going to become "another 3rd world
region" because of environmental regulation?
If you look at the
actual history of the Third World, you'll find that most of it
has a history of being colonized by the major European powers
or the US, or both. It's a combination of good old Western
capitalism, along with good old Western guns and naval expeditions
and war, that basically produced the Third World that we
see today.
Maybe if the United States can avoid being
invaded and conquered by outsiders - as India was conquered
by the British, for example, and as Panama was basically
created and repeatedly occupied by the United States, and
as most of the Central American countries have been repeatedly
invaded by the U.S. Marines since 1900 -- if we can avoid
being humiliated by rich capitalist foreigners, as we have
humilated others, we may be able to avoid the poverty and environmental
degradation that the Third World has experienced.
Of course, environmental purity can be overdone. People
can indeed refuse to accept necessary tradeoffs between
environmental purity - which is impossible to achieve
completely - and allowances for human economic enterprise.
But if you're talking about the risks of environmental regulation
inspiring US industry to move overseas, to where they can destroy
the environment at will -- well, why don't we eliminate idiotic
free trade laws like NAFTA and GATT to stop this? And while
we're at it, why don't we seek to impose laws on the export of
investment capital, so that corporations that have earned billions
of dollars from the hard work put in by American workign people
can't simply pick up their factories and move to places like
Mexico and China?
The fact is, it isn't only environmental laws that give
US multinational companies an incentive to moving their
factories to Third World hellholes where they can do whatever
they choose. It's also LABOR costs, which are a huge factor
in production. And unless we find ways to compel American
companies to REMAIN American, they're going to keep shipping
jobs overseas until they can push down American wage levels
to those prevailing in a lot of impoverished societies overseas.
I mean, why won't the Fortune 500 companies move to India, or
China, or Burma, or Haiti, or any other low-wage, politically
repressive country they can find where the government keeps
the labor unions from raising wages, if US laws allow them to
do so? They can make higher profits by firing American workers
and hiring the cheapest foreign labor they can find; they also
can make higher profits if they do business in places where
they can poison the planet freely with their air and water emissions.
So don't we need to control where they can move, if either
American workers OR American environmentalists hope to
see a decent future for this country?
**
There's a more fundamental assumption^ than the one you suggest.
Namely: Who are corporations, that they get to say--with impugnity,
no less--that our choices are between jobs and clean water?
ANY corporation that says such a thing, either by policies or by its
actions, should be globally boycotted out of business.
Anybody sewing sneakers in China who thinks that production won't
move to Zimbabwe the minute it's cheaper to do business there is just
fooling themselves. The workforce and consumers are the same folks,
if one only thinks globally. I don't fault Chinese shoemakers for
taking a job if there's one available, but if we all stop buying the
damned products from companies that do stuff like that we'll take
back the power to have both a job and air that doesn't cause cancer.
Now, that's the kind of globallism I like!
^To answer your question, I think the logic goes like this:
Corporations will set up shop and hire labor where it's cheaper and
easier for them to do so. That probably isn't the USA, so eventually
the jobs dry up here. A middle class with no jobs turns America into
a 3rd world region.
--
If labor costs for cars are cheaper now, how come the price never
comes down?
Cheney? Wrong on almost everything. Fire him this November.
Rumsfeld? Botched the planning of the Iraq War. Fire him, too.
Ashcroft? Is there anyone scarier in the Bush admin? Fire him.
Powell? Gave up his principles to be a good soldier. Fire him.
Rice? Nice person, but completely over her head. Fire her, too.
Consumerism is slavery.
Gawd, you're thick. You missed the point of my post completely. When the
Western World becomes a part of the 3rd world, it will have neither the
money nor inclination to enforce complex and expensive environmental
regulations. Get it?
GP
My deepest apologies for being "thick," as you put it. I guess I'm in
presence of a superior being, but I still don't "get it," exactly.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
Are you saying the human species and the natural world are
both screwed if the capatitalist global market leads everyone
on earth, or virtually everyone, to becoming poor and economically
insecure?
If so, I agree with that. As a leftist, I'd have to admit that
we don't have good alternatives to capitalism invented yet,
and I'd also admit that the system has created superb technology
and amazing wealth for many, many people. But if the direction
of the world market pushes everyone in the direction of living
in poverty under "Third World" conditions, as it may well be
doing right now, I think we're screwed.
Is that what you mean?
Or are you mostly a racist or an anti-immigration
person, and you mean to say that Earth Day was a "white" invention
and that without enough white people around to protect nature,
those terrible black & brown & yellow folks, who make up maybe
80% of the world's popluation, are going to do awful stuff?
If you're trying to make that point, I think you're mistaken.
European and American whites have indeed done a lot to
promote "conservationist" thinking since about 1900, but that's
partly because we needed to - we ourselves were trashing
North American so thoroughly that people like Teddy Roosevelt
and John Muir recognized the need to cry "halt."
For white folks to now declare our supposed environmental
superiority to other people under those circumstances is
really to miss the point, I think. I'm white myself, and
frankly I've been racially prejudiced at times, and I sympathize
with Anglo-Americans who dislike open immigration - because
mass immigration is always disruptive. But I think people of
all races and income levels around the world need to recognize
that we're in the same boat environmentally. If white & black &
brown & yellow and "other" people of all kinds can't cooperate
to save the planet, it's going to get badly trashed.
To me, that means we all need to leave our racial & religious
& political hangups behind, difficult as that may seem, and
learn to work respectfully with other people to fix the
environment. Personally, I find this difficult, because I
sometimes disrepect others on an "equal opportunity" basis. But
we've got to learn to work cooperatively or perish, IMHO.
I'm still not sure I get your point, though. What were you
really trying to say?
**