Will SWEDEN fight for the BALTIC states?
Misha Verbitsky
>Nikolay Shulga (c1s...@watson.ibm.com) wrote:
>> BTW, were there any Estonians fighting Nazis in Soviet Army? I
>> believe there was a well-known (at that time) test pilot of Estonian origin.
>> (Or, was he yet another Jew trained by Russians? Ain, any opinions?)
>Your Anti-Semitist flame bait does not deserve any answer. Of course,
>there were Estonians in Soviet Army. To cut a long story short, I would
>like to mention that numerous Estonian men were compelled to fight in
>both terror armies, in the Soviet and Nazi militaries.
Nikolay refers to the posting by Ain Annisaar who
wrote that he despises Soviet Jews because they
forgot their national identity and mother tongue.
His posting basically implied that me and majority of
other Jews of Soviet extraction are Untermenschen
who have no national identity and cultural values -
a remark quite typical for Baltic (and Russian)
racists.
Misha.
Tapani Hietaniemi
In the last month, the Estonian republic re-established the cultural
autonomy legislation, which provides Estonia Jews a cultural autonomy
and self-governing bodies to protect the identity of their own, which must
be a great disappointment to racists.
With best regards
the observer
Tapani Hietaniemi
University of Helsinki
Misha Verbitsky
First, Jews don't need the legislation to protect the national
identity of my own. They protected this identity in the
course of millennia without legistation.
Therefore, establishing a legislature to protect
Jewish national identity is merely an action of
propaganda. The cultural autonomy legislation
which is similar to Estonian one was adopted
by Stalinist SU in 1925-1948 (when it was
no more due to ongoing antisemitic campaign).
The laws are nothing in countries like Stalinist
SU as well as in x-Soviet nationalist republics
like Uzbekistan, Estonia or Georgia.
Second, these people you are referring to are
rendered stateless by Estonian laws.
I think that the laws that strip people off their
rights to represent themselves basing on where
their parents were born are racist. I don't see
why this legislation disappoints Estonian racists
like Ain (see the passage of the article you were
quoting). Your dayly Estonian gov't press releases
are merely a pathetic propagandist campaign without
any content. Certainly Swedish Finns are not stripped
off their citizenship overnight because they are
Finns, not Swedes? Jews are. Therefore, Estonian
politics with respect to Jews is outrageous
comparing with Swedish politics towards Finns.
Misha.
Tapani Hietaniemi
> In article <2e7f4q$3...@karhu.Helsinki.FI> thie...@karhu.Helsinki.FI
(Tapani Hietaniemi) writes:
> >Misha Verbitsky (ver...@brauer.harvard.edu) wrote:
> >> His posting basically implied that me and majority of
> >> other Jews of Soviet extraction are Untermenschen
> >> who have no national identity and cultural values -
> >> a remark quite typical for Baltic (and Russian)
> >> racists.
> >In the last month, the Estonian republic re-established the cultural
> >autonomy legislation, which provides Estonia Jews a cultural autonomy
> >and self-governing bodies to protect the identity of their own, which must
> >be a great disappointment to racists.
> First, Jews don't need the legislation to protect the national
> identity of my own. They protected this identity in the
> course of millennia without legistation.
Something like that must have been going in the minds of Soviet
occupants when they banned the Jewish schools, cultural organisations
and self-government in Estonia in 1940. Too bad the free Estonian republic
has got another kind of opinion; they protect the Jewish minority with
cultural autonomy legislation :-)
> Therefore, establishing a legislature to protect
> Jewish national identity is merely an action of
> propaganda.
Unfortunately to your propaganda work, the initiative came from the
Jewish society in Estonia. Please, contact Ms Eugenia Gurin-Loov,
the chairperson of Estonia Jewish society for further information
on the initiative and legislation which they warmly support. Most
interesting is that you oppose the minority autonomy for Jews.
The cultural autonomy legislation
> which is similar to Estonian one was adopted
> by Stalinist SU in 1925-1948 (when it was
> no more due to ongoing antisemitic campaign).
Nahh... Jevreiskaja avtonmnaja oblast' was in Siberia, near Mongolia.
It should go without saying that there were no real independent minority
or any other civil society organisations in Stalinist Soviet Union,
not even the "Soviets" that according the theory possessed the power.
> The laws are nothing in countries like Stalinist
> SU as well as in x-Soviet nationalist republics
> like Uzbekistan, Estonia or Georgia.
You have been constantly denying the meaning of democratic legislation,
not Estonians. I won't comment Uzbekistan and Georgia because my knowledge
on them is superfluous. When it comes to Estonia, all observers by
United Nations, CSCE and Council of Europe refute your opinion. Which
doesn't, of course, prevent you of repeating it ad nauseam.
> Second, these people you are referring to are
> rendered stateless by Estonian laws.
Incorrect. I have not been referring to any stateless persons or Russian
citizens in this discussion thread. Learn to read, please.
> I think that the laws that strip people off their
> rights to represent themselves basing on where
> their parents were born are racist.
I do not think that if the Estonian citizens refuse to legalize post
festum imperialist politics of strategic migration and ethnic cleansing
that would make them racists. To cut the long story short, the United
Nations General Assembly resolution on Baltic politics seems to be
a very reasonable one indeed.
> I don't see
> why this legislation disappoints Estonian racists
> like Ain (see the passage of the article you were
> quoting). Your dayly Estonian gov't press releases
> are merely a pathetic propagandist campaign without
> any content.
You can call us anything you like, but I am convinced that every one
reading this discussion sees which people provide information on Estonia,
statistics on economy, facts on minority legislation and who know
something about what is happening in Narva.
Your postings, on the contrary, contain mostly only petty personal
flaming the aim of which is to turn attention from the real political
issues and start a senseless flame war (which is not senseless from your
point of view and does serve your aims pretty well).
With best regards
Tapani Hietaniemi
Helsinki
Henry Mednikoff
Haven't Estonia signed $50 mill light arms deal with Israel recently ?
Here is the reason for Jewish cultural autonomy.
If, let us say, Koreans came with the lower bid, then we would witness opening
of Korean Cultural Center.
I do not find it utterly wrong, just politics.. (:|)
Henry.
Tapani Hietaniemi
> Haven't Estonia signed $50 mill light arms deal with Israel recently ?
> Here is the reason for Jewish cultural autonomy.
How does your hypothesis explain that Estonia Jews got their cultural autonomy
already in 1925? IMHO, the good relations (even in military affairs)
between Estonia and Israel are rather consequences of the progressive
Estonian legislation, not the other way around.
Henry Mednikoff
>Henry Mednikoff (he...@bms.com) wrote:
>
>> Haven't Estonia signed $50 mill light arms deal with Israel recently ?
>> Here is the reason for Jewish cultural autonomy.
>
>
>How does your hypothesis explain that Estonia Jews got their cultural autonomy
>already in 1925? IMHO, the good relations (even in military affairs)
>between Estonia and Israel are rather consequences of the progressive
>Estonian legislation, not the other way around.
>
>With best regards
>Tapani Hietaniemi
May be.. may be..
I like to believe in nice things people do, especially before
Xmas.
Just one thing comes to my mind : The Warsaw Ghetto.
Polish Jews had their authonomy there: Police, schools,the synagouges etc.
The Nazis even made a propaganda movie of happy Jews, speaking Idish,
working at their own factories and shops, children attending
Jewish schools etc.
All this was for external consumption in order to keep the world unaware
of ongoing tragedy of people being isolated for slaughter.
I am not comparing sutuiation in the Baltics with that one which existed
under Nazi Germany but there is one common thing about authonomy: Propaganda.
Estonian Government is pragmatic enough that is why the Jewish card is played.
In the reality, Estonia needs equal rights for all her residents,
and not just Jewish Cultural Authonomy.
You are right about 1925- Jewish culture was flourishing in the Baltics
at that time.
But things changed there during Stalin's take over and German occupation.
Many Jews were exterminated at the hands of local
colloborators during the war.
Why such a sudden change of heart now toward Jews ?
Besides, their number in the Baltics is insignificant...
Henry.
Misha Verbitsky
>I like to believe in nice things people do, especially before
>Xmas.
>Just one thing comes to my mind : The Warsaw Ghetto.
>Polish Jews had their authonomy there: Police, schools,the synagouges etc.
>The Nazis even made a propaganda movie of happy Jews, speaking Idish,
>working at their own factories and shops, children attending
>Jewish schools etc.
>All this was for external consumption in order to keep the world unaware
>of ongoing tragedy of people being isolated for slaughter.
>I am not comparing sutuiation in the Baltics with that one which existed
>under Nazi Germany but there is one common thing about authonomy: Propaganda.
>Estonian Government is pragmatic enough that is why the Jewish card is played.
>In the reality, Estonia needs equal rights for all her residents,
>and not just Jewish Cultural Authonomy.
I don't understand this "cultural autonomy" at all.
What does it mean practiclayy, aside for PR and PC-talk?
I have the perfect culturally autonomy of my own here in
Cambridge and I have had one in Moscow as well. You
can't take the culture from the cultured people, except
by shutting down the human rights. The human rights
of almost half of Estonian population are severely violated:
for example, they can't represent themselves in a power
structures (except the local municipalities which are
just talk-shows).
I am sure that everybody agrees: these laws are
just for press releases. Except that PR people
wouldn't admit that, of course.
Misha.
Tapani Hietaniemi
> In article k...@karhu.Helsinki.FI, thie...@karhu.Helsinki.FI
(Tapani Hietaniemi) writes:
> >Henry Mednikoff (he...@bms.com) wrote:
> >> Haven't Estonia signed $50 mill light arms deal with Israel recently ?
> >> Here is the reason for Jewish cultural autonomy.
> >How does your hypothesis explain that Estonia Jews got their cultural
> >autonomy
> >already in 1925? IMHO, the good relations (even in military affairs)
> >between Estonia and Israel are rather consequences of the progressive
> >Estonian legislation, not the other way around.
> Just one thing comes to my mind : The Warsaw Ghetto.
> Polish Jews had their authonomy there: Police, schools,the synagouges
> etc.
No. The cultural autonomy legislation provided for Jews in Estonia was a
unique phenomenon in Europe between the wars at least to my knowledge.
> The Nazis even made a propaganda movie of happy Jews, speaking Idish,
> working at their own factories and shops, children attending
> Jewish schools etc.
> All this was for external consumption in order to keep the world unaware
> of ongoing tragedy of people being isolated for slaughter.
Exactly. And Nazis naturally put an end to all progressive legislation in
minority issues and started the holocaust even in the Baltics. But I have to
remind you that already the Soviet occupants had closed the Yiddish schools
in Estonia in 1940-41.
> I am not comparing sutuiation in the Baltics with that one which existed
> under Nazi Germany but there is one common thing about authonomy: Propaganda.
> Estonian Government is pragmatic enough that is why the Jewish card is
> played.
Oh no, Estonians are simply conservative and stick to their tradition of
cultural autonomy legislation.
> In the reality, Estonia needs equal rights for all her residents,
> and not just Jewish Cultural Authonomy.
No, not equal rights to all residents. For example, 50.000 Russian
citizens residing in Estonia should have different kind of rights and duties
(the rights Russian federation provides them) than the Estonian citizens. The
stateless residents should make the decision which country they belong to.
A political compromise between Russia and Estonia would make their
decision a lot easier. But when it comes to human rights, I naturally
agree with you (and with the United Nations General Assembly resolution
on Baltic human rights issues).
BTW, not only Jews have cultural autonomy in Estonia, but also Germans,
Russians and Swedes, the traditional Estonian minorities.
> You are right about 1925- Jewish culture was flourishing in the Baltics
> at that time.
> But things changed there during Stalin's take over and German occupation.
> Many Jews were exterminated at the hands of local
> colloborators during the war.
The holocaust in Baltics was a Nazi German crime, this is it's essence
regardless of some local individual war criminals. (There are, of course,
differences between the historical fates of Jews in different Baltic states,
but I do not discuss this issue right now.)
> Why such a sudden change of heart now toward Jews ?
When the Estonian citizens have had a possibility to make their free
decisions like between 1920-1939 and after 1991, they have both times
chosen a pro-Jewish politics.
Tapani Hietaniemi
> I don't understand this "cultural autonomy" at all.
Correct. You don't. I'll repost the law on Cultural Autonomy of
National Minorities. I think it could be used as an example in other
parts of East Europe as well.
> The human rights
> of almost half of Estonian population are severely violated:
This propaganda slogan of the Russian Federation government did not
receive any support in United Nations General Assembly, the resolution
of which, IMHO, shows the main outlines to the solution of the Russo-
Estonian dispute.
Henry Mednikoff
As we all know there were no Hebrew Schools in the Ex-USSR.
To be affiliated with Judaism was almost a crime, while muslims and
christians were less subdued.
I do not exactly understand what ex-Soviet governments wanted from Jews:
on one hand they prohibited anything Jewish- schools, literature,music
etc. The logic of such oppression suggests that the task was
to assimilate Jews.
On the other hand, Jews were not let to forget who they are,
even when they assumed Russian sounding names, language, culture etc.
Therefore immigration to Israel started after the 6-Day War,
when some Jews suddenly woke up from being frighten all their lives,
and a sense of pride came back to many jewish people.
Jewish intellectuals began to raise their voices about absence of Jewish music, language,theaters, schools in the Soviet society, Jewish population of
which accounted for 2.5 mil people.
While Kirghizia with 900,000 ethnic Kirghizes had its ethnic identity,
in terms of everything-from theaters to having their own republic.
Misha, You do not know anything about Jewish culture,
because You did not have one.
It was not your fault.
You did not become less Jewish.
You simply invested your talents into somebody else's culture.
So, you became "multicultural" (:|)
My regards.
Henry.
Dorin Baru
>Polish Jews had their authonomy there: Police, schools,the synagouges etc.
>The Nazis even made a propaganda movie of happy Jews, speaking Idish,
>working at their own factories and shops, children attending
>Jewish schools etc.
>All this was for external consumption in order to keep the world unaware
>of ongoing tragedy of people being isolated for slaughter.
>I am not comparing sutuiation in the Baltics with that one which existed
>under Nazi Germany but there is one common thing about authonomy: Propaganda.
>Estonian Government is pragmatic enough that is why the Jewish card is played.
>In the reality, Estonia needs equal rights for all her residents,
>and not just Jewish Cultural Authonomy.
I am sure that the situation in Estonia is not to be compared to Nazi Germany,
but I guess your point is extremely correct: When we talk too much about
'Jewish autonomy, jewish rights, etc', it stinks antisemitism. Once we care who
is jewish, estonian, russian, homosexual or whatever, something is wrong. When
you do not give a damn about your neighbour being jewish or not, that's when
there is no more antisemitism
And talking, at state level, about jewish autonomy in a country with very few
jews, well.....
Dorin
Tapani Hietaniemi
> When we talk too much about
> 'Jewish autonomy, jewish rights, etc', it stinks antisemitism. Once we care
> who
> is jewish, estonian, russian, homosexual or whatever, something is wrong.
> When
> you do not give a damn about your neighbour being jewish or not, that's when
> there is no more antisemitism
> And talking, at state level, about jewish autonomy in a country with very few
> jews, well.....
On the contrary, I find it extremely important that cultural
minorities are protected and provided funds from the state budget for
their self-governing bodies. When it comes to Estonia Jews, they faced
both the Nazi German Endloesung and Soviet ban on Jewish education and
cultural institutions. According to dominating Estonian opinion, they
deserve the re-establishment of the rights they were deprived of.
But don't take it from me - contact the Estonia Jewish society which has
actively supported this autonomy legislation. Ask the Conference of
Security and Cooperation Human Rights Commisioner's opinions on the
cultural autonomy law (excerpt from a news report posted in
soc.culture.baltics):
> Estonia recently updated and readopted the "Law on Cultural
> Autonomy of Minorities," which established the educational,
> cultural and religious rights of minorities in Estonia. The CSCE
> High Commissioner for Human Rights, Mr. Max van der Stoel,
> expressed his satisfaction with the law's substance and stressed
> that it could be used as a model for other countries dealing with
> minority issues.
This is an important experiment and we do not know yet, what the
concrete effects of the Cultural Autonomy of Minorities Law will
look like. Anyhow, I have posted the translation of law in t.p.s
and soc.culture.baltics to every one interested in the law.
With best regards
the observer
Tapani Hietaniemi
University of Helsinki
Misha Verbitsky
>Misha, You do not know anything about Jewish culture,
>because You did not have one.
You are talking shit, Mr. Mednikov. I spent much
time in sinagogue during my teen and pre-teen years
and I believe that I am well versed in Jewish customs.
My mother actively studied Judaism during whole 80-ies
and I studied in the high-school where the majority
of students were (at least half-) Jewish and
the interest (and knowledge) of Judaism
was very common. If you are brain dead, please keep
low profile. I can like or dislike Judaism, but it
doesn't mean that I don't know Torah - in fact,
I believe that I know Torah better than some of
these guys from Harvard Hillel. I don't
know Hebrew, but at least hundred of generations
of my ancestors didn't use Hebrew and
preferred the local speach, so I just follow
their pattern.
>It was not your fault.
>You did not become less Jewish.
>You simply invested your talents into somebody else's culture.
Whose culture? There is no someone else's cultures,
except for uncultured people.
Misha.
Tanel Tammet
> I don't understand this "cultural autonomy" at all.
> What does it mean practiclayy, aside for PR and PC-talk?
> I have the perfect culturally autonomy of my own here in
> Cambridge and I have had one in Moscow as well.
The question is not in you - the culture we are speaking about here
is a social phenomenon, not your personal competence in Thorah.
The first point is the choice of schooling for your children.
Parents just might prefer one type of school to the other,
some might even prefer to have their children well educated in
Hebrew and Yiddish or in Russian or Swedish or whatever.
The cultural autonomy is about such kinds of things: if there is
a sufficiently big group of people who want to have something
different from what is provided by default from the state,
what rights and what means do they have to obtain it?
State support of foreign-language schools (or even just allowing
schools to use foreign language) is not universally guaranteed.
I am not well versed when in comes to the US traditions, but for example
in Sweden (which is otherwise quite OK) the general principle is
to PROHIBIT the creation of any non-Swedish schools. There are
fortunately counterexamples to this, but the general principle
remains the same: speeding up assimilation by providing schooling
in Swedish only. I do not say that this is necessarily bad, only that
it does not give much choice to finnish families in Sweden, for example.
In the hypothetical case where Swedish accepted a law like the cultural
minorites law of Estonia, the situation in regards to larger minorities
would soon be pretty different.
Regards,
Tanel Tammet
mkag...@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu
>Henry Mednikoff (he...@bms.com) wrote:
>
>> Haven't Estonia signed $50 mill light arms deal with Israel recently ?
>> Here is the reason for Jewish cultural autonomy.
>
>
>How does your hypothesis explain that Estonia Jews got their cultural autonomy
>already in 1925?
" But you still deny that 2.5 millions of innocent turks were slaughtered
by Armenians ..."
mkag...@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu
>Henry Mednikoff (he...@bms.com) wrote:
>> In article k...@karhu.Helsinki.FI, thie...@karhu.Helsinki.FI
>(Tapani Hietaniemi) writes:
>> >Henry Mednikoff (he...@bms.com) wrote:
>> >> Haven't Estonia signed $50 mill light arms deal with Israel recently ?
>> >> Here is the reason for Jewish cultural autonomy.
>
>> >How does your hypothesis explain that Estonia Jews got their cultural
>> >autonomy
>> >already in 1925? IMHO, the good relations (even in military affairs)
>> >between Estonia and Israel are rather consequences of the progressive
>> >Estonian legislation, not the other way around.
>
>
>> Just one thing comes to my mind : The Warsaw Ghetto.
>> Polish Jews had their authonomy there: Police, schools,the synagouges
>> etc.
>
>
>No. The cultural autonomy legislation provided for Jews in Estonia was a
>unique phenomenon in Europe between the wars at least to my knowledge.
... but during the war something equivalent emerged, the Warsaw ghetto.
I see that thietani noticed the similarity - he denies the existence
of anything similar to "cultural autonomy legislation in Estonia"
only _between_ wars.
>
>> In the reality, Estonia needs equal rights for all her residents,
>> and not just Jewish Cultural Authonomy.
>
>
>No, not equal rights to all residents.
Thietani is rarely that sincere. But when he does not watch himself, he
admits the existence of "separate development" (also known as "apartheid")
in today's Estonia.
>> You are right about 1925- Jewish culture was flourishing in the Baltics
>> at that time.
>> But things changed there during Stalin's take over and German occupation.
>> Many Jews were exterminated at the hands of local
>> colloborators during the war.
>
>
>The holocaust in Baltics was a Nazi German crime, this is it's essence
>regardless of some local individual war criminals.
Yea, Estonian killers are not guilty, they just followed the orders.
Yours,
Michael
vad...@vms.huji.ac.il
In his comments to Minorities law Observer depicts the sufferings of
Estonian Jews:
> On the contrary, I find it extremely important that cultural
> minorities are protected and provided funds from the state budget for
> their self-governing bodies. When it comes to Estonia Jews, they faced
> both the Nazi German Endloesung and Soviet ban on Jewish education and
> cultural institutions. According to dominating Estonian opinion, they
> deserve the re-establishment of the rights they were deprived of.
As always, he mixes up the acting person: as regards Soviet idiotic cultural
limitations he is 100% correct, but in the case of the Final Solution, the
acting personages were the citizens of Estonian Republic. The German
administration, no doubt, was deeply satisfied, but the fact is the fact: the
Jews who happened not to escape from Estonia with the retreating Red Army were
massacred by the right-wing "self-defence " troops consisting of exclusively
the citizens of pre-occupation Estonian Republic.
The evidence and Nazi documents confirming this fact were presented at the
Nuremberg trial bu the US General accuser and the chief Germans were acused for
supporting and partly organizing this massacre. However, I never heard about
anyone brought into the court of justice in the revived Estonian republic for
practical participaTION IN this criminal action. No doubt plenty of the
Estonian citizens who took part are still alive.
Best wishes,
Vadim N.Savvate'ev
Erland Sommarskog
> I think that the laws that strip people off their
> rights to represent themselves basing on where
> their parents were born are racist.
Let's see. Mr. and Mrs. A, both Estonian lived in Pskov and moved
to Tartu in 1953 were Soviet citizens all their life. Therefore
their children can only get Estonian citizenship after the ordinary
application procedure. The Russian couple Mr. and Mrs. B were borned
in Narva and lived there all their life and they were Estonian
citizens before the war. Consequently, their children are also
Estonian citizens without any application procedure, no matter they
Estonian or not. Racist? Only a Mikhail Verbitsky would say so.
> Second, these people you are referring to are
> rendered stateless by Estonian laws.
So?
From the Law on Cultural Autonomy for National Minorities which
Tapani was kind enough to post?
> This Law considers as national minorities citizens of Estonia,
> who: ========
In a comment to Tapani's posting Verbitsky says:
>I am not a lawyer nor a PR person. Why should I read all this stuff?
Yes why should you? The knowledge of facts would only hurt you. What
if you are sitting there and cranking out all your Russian nationalist
propaganda, and suddenly is struck by thought: "this is not the way
it is". No, for a person like you ignorance is bliss.
--
Erland Sommarskog, som...@enea.se, Stockholm
Not spokesman for ENEA Data AB
Tapani Hietaniemi
> In article <2ebrb7$e...@karhu.Helsinki.FI>, thie...@karhu.Helsinki.FI
(Tapani Hietaniemi) writes:
> > On the contrary, I find it extremely important that cultural
> > minorities are protected and provided funds from the state budget for
> > their self-governing bodies. When it comes to Estonia Jews, they faced
> > both the Nazi German Endloesung and Soviet ban on Jewish education and
> > cultural institutions. According to dominating Estonian opinion, they
> > deserve the re-establishment of the rights they were deprived of.
> As always, he mixes up the acting person: as regards Soviet idiotic cultural
> limitations he is 100% correct, but in the case of the Final Solution, the
> acting personages were the citizens of Estonian Republic. The German
> administration, no doubt, was deeply satisfied, but the fact is the fact: the
> Jews who happened not to escape from Estonia with the retreating Red Army were
> massacred by the right-wing "self-defence " troops consisting of exclusively
> the citizens of pre-occupation Estonian Republic.
I am afraid you are mixing up many things, partly of ignorance. The
German occupation regime executed approximately 6.000 Estonian citizens,
most of them alleged Communists or Jews (1000 -2000). There were less
than 5000 Jews in Estonia before the WW II, and many of them left the country
before the Soviet occupation, some were even expelled by the Soviets as
Germans and some deported and executed by the Soviet regime, not as Jews
but "bourgeois" anti-Soviet elements (figures from: Toivo U. Raun: Estonia
and the Estonians, Stanford University Press 1987).
I guess you do not know what "self-defence" troops were, they were
mostly home guards. But if you are referring to Defense Battalions, they
were parts of the Nazi German military. I quote the leading historians on this
issue (quotations from Misiunas - Taagepera: The Baltic States, Years of
Dependence, Hurst London 1983).
"The German mobilization of Baltic manpower was also designed to provide
recruits for military and para-military units. Althought such activity
clearly conflicted with international law, the measures were so couched
as to render the draftees "voluntary associates". The first such units
consisted of the so-called Defense Battalions ("Security Units" in
Estonia), later renamed Police Battalions, which were largely staffed
with volunteers. A variety of motives induced individuals to sign up.
A few were genuinely pro-Nazi in orientation. Others sought revenge
against Bolshevism for the deportations or murders of close ones and
the and the indignities which had been inflicted on their homelands.
Some tried to cover up their earlier collaboration with the Soviets or
tried to escape false accusations of that effect." (p. 54-55).
In Lithuania "recruitment for Defense Battallions was frequently
presented to -- soldiers in the form of a choice of joining or being
sent to POW camps." (55)
"According to official pledges issued in all three countries, these
Battalions should have been used only within their homelands,
principally for duty against Soviet stragglers, parachutists and escaped
POW's. This promise was soon broken, and virtually all the Battalions
were sent east for support duty behind the German lines and later on
the front.-- As tactical rather than combat units, they were frequently
given unpleasant tasks of civilian population control or anti-guerrilla
operations. Elements of them have been reported doing ghetto guard duty
in Poland." (55)
But according to my limited knowledge, it was neither self-defence
groups nor these Defense Battalions which were used in carrying out the
holocaust in Baltics.
"The Reich's policy toward the Jewish population of areas which fell
under its control is well known, and the Baltic region was no exception.
While the Jewish community of Estonia was minuscule (5,000), in
Lithuania, including Vilnius, had over 200,000 and Latvia 93,000 Jews."
(58).
"Some outbreaks of indiscriminate killing of Jews occurred in Lithuania
soon after German attack. Several bands of ad hoc executioners are known
to have perpetrated such massacres.-- However, Soviet destruction of
national elites has eliminated one element of social control over the
most primitive segments of the population" (58-59)
So, there has been documented spontaneous killings in Lithuania (on
perhaps, in Poland, if we consider the Vilnius case). But the
holocaust itself was organized by the Nazi Germany:
"A German task force of 1,000 men (Einsatzgruppe A) was charged with
liquidating Jews and Communists in the Baltic lands. Its first groups
went to action in Kaunas on 28 June - four days after the entry of
German armed forces. The Germans made conscious efforts in Kaunas and
Riga to take photos and films that would suggest popular initiative in
the pogroms, and they urged the new local auxiliary units to participate,
with some success. Nonetheless, the German Sicherheitspolizei reported
that incitement was surprisingly difficult in Lithuania, and even more
so in Riga." (59)
An important book on Holocaust, namely Why Did the Heavens not Darken
by Arno J. Mayer (Pantheon Books, New York 1988) gives a similar picture
on events. Though he prefers to speak about "Baltics" or "Nazi "liberated"
territories" en bloc, he describes local anti-Semitic collaborator pogroms
only in Vilna/Vilnius, Kovno/Kaunas and Riga (p. 259-261). I can't find
anything similar about Estonia, though. Only thing I have even heard are
some rumours that couple of Estonian policemen had killed some Jews
right after the withdrawal of the Soviet troops. But I have not
confronted anything confirming this yet.
However, Mayer mentions that Einsatzgruppe A "hired Lithuanians,
Latvians and Estonians as executioners" since "they soon realized that
their own personnel was unequal to their growing task." (p. 259).
He does not, unfortunately, tell us any figures here. But, IMHO, anyone
who participated in the "work" of Einsatzgruppe A was a war criminal in
a similar manner as those who participated in Destruction Batallions of
the Soviet Union in 1944 and after it.
To conclude: according to my limited knowledge, the description of Vadim
seems at least misleading if not totally false. But I would like to know
about further litterature and documents and discuss their contents
sine ira et studio, if possible. Anyhow, I would like to stress the
following things:
- Many historians and Estonia Jews themselves tell us that Estonia
lacked an anti-Semitic tradition, a fact which is partly supported by
the existence of Jewish cultural autonomy legislation between
1925-1940. However, the Latvian and Lithuanian cases differ from the
Estonian history. Lithuania is in many respects similar to Poland.
- Estonia Jews were more culturally assimilated to their surroundings
than Latvian and Lithuanian Jews and accordingly there were no such
tensions as in Latvia and Lithuania. For example there were no
"ghettos" in Tallinn or Tartu similar to Vilnius ghetto as far as
I know.
- There were only approximately 1.000 - 2.000 Estonia Jews remaining in
Estonian territory after the Soviet occupation in 1940-1941. Their
amount was small and the Nazi Einsatzgruppe had an easy task: they
destroyed almost all of Estonia Jews until 1942 and made Estonia
"Judenfrei" (Source: Eugenia Gurin-Loov, the chairperson of the
Estonian Jewish Society).
- When Estonia was occupied by Nazi Germany, it was turned into a great
concentration camp, where 60.000 - 100.000 Soviet POW's and Jews
from other countries perished. No one has ever though of accusing
Estonians for these atrocities, at least not yet.
So, to my present knowledge and although I do not claim to be any kind of
specialist in this issue, I feel entitled to claim that the Holocaust
in Estonia was a Nazi (German) act (though there were some local war criminals
involved in it) like the occupation of Estonia 1940-41 and after 1944 and
deportations and executions connected to it were Soviet (Russian) acts
(though there were some local war criminals involved in them). The leading
Estonian politicians and parties co-operated with neither of these
two terror regimes.
The Latvian and especially Lithuanian cases (not to speak anything of
Belorussian and Ukrainian cases) are much more complicated
ones, and I would appreciate if people with more knowledge of those
countries and their cultures would participate in rational discussion
on the WW II events there.
Tapani Hietaniemi
The following document can be found in Jerusalem One Network Gopher
=> Electronic Jewish History => Holocaust Archives => Einsatzgruppen.
No need to comment it, except that I have underlined the last sentence.
=====================================================================
Report: Einsatzgruppe Progress
=====================================================================
This extract comes from a report by Einsatzgruppe A in the Baltic countries.
It is a general report of their progress up to October 15, 1941.
----------------------------------------------
Basing oneself on the consideration that the population of the Baltic
countries had suffered most severely under the rule of Bolshevism and Jewry
while they were incorporated into the USSR, it was to be expected that after
liberation from this foreign rule they would themselves to a large extent
eliminate those of the enemy left behind after the retreat of the Red Army. It
was the task of the Security Police to set these self-cleansing movements
going and to direct them into the right channels in order to achieve the aim
of this cleansing as rapidly as possible. I was no less important to establish
as unshakable and provable facts for the future that it was the liberated
population itself which took the most severe measures, on its own initiative,
against he Bolshevik and Jewish enemy, without any German instruction
being evident.
In Lithuania this was achieved for the first time by activating the partisans
in Kovno. To our surprise it was not easy at first to set any large-scale anti-
Jewish pogrom in motion there...In Estonia there was no opportunity of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
instigating pogroms owing to the relatively small number of Jews.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With best regards
the observer
Tapani Hietaniemi
University of Helsinki
vad...@vms.huji.ac.il
Several months ago I posted the larger excerpts from this document and the
Observer, no doubt, had a chance to get aquainted to it.
In later section the author of the document said explicitely, that ALL the
remaining Jews in Estonia were executed by self-defence units consisting of
citizens of Estonia.
Pls, don't play the tricks with selective quoting the document.
From your postings, Observer, people get impression that Estonia lacked
Communist tradition, lacked Antisemitic tradition, and those who served in
police units on either side did ugly things only due to the lack of choice.
It looks like the citizens also lacked the responcibility tradition also.
Looks like heavens- little country with no ugly traditions and none is
responcible for anything.
Every time the trouble happens, there is someone else to blame for it.
Aborigens are claimed to have no choice.
I know only two examples of organizations supporting such behavior: Brothel and
Asylum. do you mean Estonia is like that?
Respecting Observers,
Vadim N.Savvate'ev
Tapani Hietaniemi
Look at the document for yourself, and you clearly see that I have
quoted the whole document in the gopher site mentioned. Don't play tricks
yourself but send better documents and arguments if you have any,
tell where the texts are located and try to evaluate them with help
of expert litterature.
And we should remember what questions we are discussing at one time;
according to my opinion, this document supports my conviction that
the reason that I do not know about any pogroms in 1941 in Estonia
is the fact that there were no such things.
> From your postings, Observer, people get impression that Estonia lacked
> Communist tradition,
Mostly correct: after the 1924 uprising the Communist cause was so
discredited that the Communist party had only few hundred members
before the annexion in 1940. This makes a difference to Latvia and
Lithuania.
>lacked Antisemitic tradition,
Mostly correct, since there was no such similar Antisemitic tradition
in Estonia as in Poland, Lithuania and perhaps Latvia. This does not mean,
of course, that there would not be any street-level Antisemitism or
Judeophoby. Partly, the lack of such tradition is explained by the
Lutheran (non-Catholic) tradition and the simple fact that the amount
of Jews in Estonia was minimal (about 5.000 compared to hundreds of
thousands in Lithuania). The same applies mostly to Finland, but my
ambition is not to explain the phenomenon, but first observe its
existence. One should be able to recognize
(a) the existence of pro-Jewish tradition in Estonia (Law of Cultural
Autonomy of Jews) and
(b) the lack of spontaneous pogroms (at least is mass scale) in 1941.
> and those who served in
> police units on either side did ugly things only due to the lack of
> choice.
Mostly mistaken. Many people did not have real choice, but all those
who served in Einsatzgruppen and Gestapo, made their conscious
decision, which makes them, IMHO, war criminals.
> It looks like the citizens also lacked the responcibility tradition also.
> Looks like heavens- little country with no ugly traditions and none is
> responcible for anything.
The only thing here correct is the words "little country", which most
people know next to nothing of and prefer mostly to speak about
"Baltics" en bloc. If there is a pogrom in Kovno/Kaunas, of course
"the Balts" in Estonia must be responsible of it, too, according to
this generalizing logic. But any serious scrutiny refutes it.
Estonia, and the countries of Balts (Latvia and Lithuania) are most
interesting objects of studying indeed.
thinks
the observer
Tapani Hietaniemi
Helsinki
Henry Mednikoff
Listen, Misha..
that is just fine with me that you studied Torah from the day of your birth..
( I do not know how you could do it living in the USSR.)
I am still convinced that Jewish culture in Ex-USSR was completely suppressed
as much as religious freedom.
We can have different opinions but you should not get irritated about such
difference.
My regards.
Henry.
Eduard Ponarin
>Mikhail Verbitsky (ver...@brauer.harvard.edu) writes:
>> I think that the laws that strip people off their
>> rights to represent themselves basing on where
>> their parents were born are racist.
>
>Let's see. Mr. and Mrs. A, both Estonian lived in Pskov and moved
>to Tartu in 1953 were Soviet citizens all their life. Therefore
>their children can only get Estonian citizenship after the ordinary
>application procedure. The Russian couple Mr. and Mrs. B were borned
>in Narva and lived there all their life and they were Estonian
>citizens before the war. Consequently, their children are also
>Estonian citizens without any application procedure, no matter they
>Estonian or not. Racist? Only a Mikhail Verbitsky would say so.
>
It is absolutely clear to me that "being born in the independent
Republic of Estonia" is just Estonian government's proxy for
non-Estonians. In 1945 non-Estonians constituted only 6% of the
Estonian population. Most of them lived in Pechery which is now
a part of Pskov Province of Russia. (Those Russians who lived
in Estonia before 1945 fled from the Communists or were repressed
by them much like the native Estonian population.) So, there is a
very good correlation between "being born in the independent
Republic of Estonia" and being ethnic Estonian.
That this law is just a civilized-looking cover for the policies
of ethnic discrimination is clear from the following fact. When
things started to get real bad in Abkhazia, the population of a
few Estonian villages there were evacuated to Estonia. All of
them were recognized as Estonian citizens. Now, the ancestors of
those people migrated to Abkhazia in 1890s-1900s. They were never
citizens of Republic of Estonia. Many of them do not speak
Estonian and some of them even have Georgian last names. But
there is Estonian blood in their veins.
Thus, the current law on citizenship is applied to exlude ethnic
non-Estonians. At the same time, this law is ignored to include
ethnic Estonians. The law itself is just a screen to achieve an
approval from the Western democracies.
I don't know why I entered this discussion. In fact, it seems to
be completely senseless and fruitless to argue with Estonian
fascists and their Scandinavian sympathizers. On one sunny day
some time after 1996 Russian presidential elections Zhirinovskii's
tanks will roll in Tallinn. On that day I'll be depressed. But
not because I'll be sorry for the Estonian government.
>Erland Sommarskog, som...@enea.se, Stockholm
>Not spokesman for ENEA Data AB
Ed Ponarin,
e...@umich.edu
dmitry pruss
>very good correlation between "being born in the independent
>Republic of Estonia" and being ethnic Estonian.
In fact the naturalization statistics clearly showed that there's almost no
descendants of the non-ethnic-Estonian citiziens of ER.
>That this law is just a civilized-looking cover for the policies
>of ethnic discrimination is clear from the following fact. When
>things started to get real bad in Abkhazia, the population of a
>few Estonian villages there were evacuated to Estonia. All of
>them were recognized as Estonian citizens. Now, the ancestors of
>those people migrated to Abkhazia in 1890s-1900s. They were never
>citizens of Republic of Estonia. Many of them do not speak
>Estonian and some of them even have Georgian last names. But
>there is Estonian blood in their veins.
Interesting. Ed, I heard that they moved there on the wave of post-1890
hunger, but I didn't think they still remember who they were. Could you
tell a few more words about it?
>
>I don't know why I entered this discussion. In fact, it seems to
>be completely senseless and fruitless to argue with Estonian
>fascists and their Scandinavian sympathizers. On one sunny day
>some time after 1996 Russian presidential elections Zhirinovskii's
>tanks will roll in Tallinn. On that day I'll be depressed. But
>not because I'll be sorry for the Estonian government.
Just a little piece of poetry, by some Kogan. Enjoy it:
Ya romanntik - ne roma, ne mantij, ne tak,
Ya romantik raznaisposlednih atak.
Wed' nedarom na karte, komandarmom ostawlennoj,
Na esche raznocwetnoj karte za Tallinom,
Press-pap'ye pokachiwaetsya, kak tank
D
Tapani Hietaniemi
> It is absolutely clear to me that "being born in the independent
> Republic of Estonia" is just Estonian government's proxy for
> non-Estonians. In 1945 non-Estonians constituted only 6% of the
> Estonian population.
Exactly, after atrocities done by the two terror regimes. But in the end of
thirties, ethnic Estonians were about 88% of Estonian citizens. The
Soviet regime changed this fact with strategic migration, of course.
> Most of them lived in Pechery which is now
> a part of Pskov Province of Russia. (Those Russians who lived
> in Estonia before 1945 fled from the Communists or were repressed
> by them much like the native Estonian population.)
Not only in Pechery/Petseri but also in West Estonia (Swedes) and in
Tallinn and Tartu (Germans and Jews), in Narva and V6rumaa
(Russians).
> So, there is a
> very good correlation between "being born in the independent
> Republic of Estonia" and being ethnic Estonian.
88 - 12, to be exact.
> That this law is just a civilized-looking cover for the policies
> of ethnic discrimination is clear from the following fact. When
> things started to get real bad in Abkhazia, the population of a
> few Estonian villages there were evacuated to Estonia. All of
> them were recognized as Estonian citizens. Now, the ancestors of
> those people migrated to Abkhazia in 1890s-1900s. They were never
> citizens of Republic of Estonia. Many of them do not speak
> Estonian and some of them even have Georgian last names. But
> there is Estonian blood in their veins.
> Thus, the current law on citizenship is applied to exlude ethnic
> non-Estonians. At the same time, this law is ignored to include
> ethnic Estonians. The law itself is just a screen to achieve an
> approval from the Western democracies.
As a matter of fact, I do not know whether Abkhazian settlers are
considered to be Estonian citizens. Does the Estonian republic make
exceptions concerning this tiny group of people? Perhaps some Estonian
netters would like to comment this? But when it comes to the approval of
the Western countries, the Estonian republic already possesses it.
> I don't know why I entered this discussion.
Beats me, too.
> In fact, it seems to
> be completely senseless and fruitless to argue with Estonian
> fascists and their Scandinavian sympathizers.
Then do not argue in a senseless and fruitless manner!
FYI, every fourth of Russian citizens voted yesterday for "fascists"
(Gaidar). They seem to love to plan violent actions abroad
as you do in the following chapter:
> On one sunny day
> some time after 1996 Russian presidential elections Zhirinovskii's
> tanks will roll in Tallinn. On that day I'll be depressed. But
> not because I'll be sorry for the Estonian government.
Of course not, "Fascist states" should be destroyed, shouldn't they?
In 1940, 1944 and 1996. You are continuing a solid tradition
indeed. Just tell, how many Estonians will be deported, executed and
arrested this time, on this "sunny day" you are promising us?
asks
the observer
Tapani Hietaniemi
from "near abroad"
Somnambulist Cesare
>In <1993Dec10.1...@galois.mit.edu> ver...@cauchy.mit.edu (Misha Verbitsky) writes:
>> I don't understand this "cultural autonomy" at all.
>> What does it mean practiclayy, aside for PR and PC-talk?
>> I have the perfect culturally autonomy of my own here in
>> Cambridge and I have had one in Moscow as well.
>The first point is the choice of schooling for your children.
>Parents just might prefer one type of school to the other,
>some might even prefer to have their children well educated in
>Hebrew and Yiddish or in Russian or Swedish or whatever.
Thanks, now I understand what you mean. Of course, there
are great numbers of schools here in US with education
in Russian, Hebrew etc. One of such schools (for Jewish
kids) is three buildings apart of my apartment.
I don't see anyway any kinds of Jewish cultural
autonomy laws in US...
>State support of foreign-language schools (or even just allowing
>schools to use foreign language) is not universally guaranteed.
>I am not well versed when in comes to the US traditions, but for example
>in Sweden (which is otherwise quite OK) the general principle is
>to PROHIBIT the creation of any non-Swedish schools.
I see. Well, if this is true this means that Sweden
is terribly undemocratic. Even in Stalin's Russia
there were lots of schools in Yiddish, Gypsy and most
other local languages. Even Greeks and Turks and Germans
have had their own cultural autonomy and schools
before WWII...
>In the hypothetical case where Swedish accepted a law like the cultural
>minorites law of Estonia, the situation in regards to larger minorities
>would soon be pretty different.
Well, there was such a law under Bolshevics and I doubt this
helped anybody. Pray better that Sweden will become
a democratic state and will stop prohibiting its citizens
obtaining the education they want to obtain.
Misha.
Eduard Ponarin
>
>Interesting. Ed, I heard that they moved there on the wave of post-1890
>hunger, but I didn't think they still remember who they were. Could you
>tell a few more words about it?
Well, there's one more thing I know about this affair.
Apparently, in the eyes of Estonian government it was so
important to bring a few hundred more native Estonians
to Estonia that the Russian pilots who rescued them from
Abkhazia were granted Estonian citizenship for their
"outstanding service" fot the Estonian Republic. (Those
pilots were Estonian residents.) Poor fellas, those pilots.
I don't blame them for accepting this citizenship, although
thousands of their compatriots continue to be discriminated.
Ed Ponarin,
e...@umich.edu
dmitry pruss
>Eduard Ponarin (e...@south.psc.lsa.umich.edu) wrote:
>FYI, every fourth of Russian citizens voted yesterday for "fascists"
And a few weeks ago, they tank-shelled the parliament building. They must
be just intrinsically evil, those Russians. How wise is the Estonian Law that
keeps them from messing up with the parliaments and fascists in this nice
little country!
But Estonian culture is not safe enough. One can only hope that, after the
Russians finally bog down in the chain of their horrible wrongdoings, the
international community will understand that a selective and mild
deportation of a portion of the Russian-speakers from Estonia is an overdue
necessity rather than a dubious postotalitarism.
Or, even better, that Zhirinovsky will summon all the Russians home, as
Hitler did with the Ostdeutche: to settle on the fertile coast of the Indian
ocean. Then he may transiently occupy Estonia to bring an endlosung to the
Tatars, Armenians, Ukrainians and Jews, and the Remaining Estonians will
constitute 95% of the population again - like in '45.
>
>> On one sunny day
>> some time after 1996 Russian presidential elections Zhirinovskii's
>> tanks will roll in Tallinn. On that day I'll be depressed. But
>> not because I'll be sorry for the Estonian government.
>
>Of course not, "Fascist states" should be destroyed, shouldn't they?
:-) Good turn. Tapani, this time you did it.
On the other hand, post-fascist states keep becoming respected and
prosperious, don't they ;-) ?
>Just tell, how many Estonians will be deported, executed and
>arrested this time, on this "sunny day" you are promising us?
>
Just tell, how much oil are you Finns going to get in exchange for your
merchandise this time? You shipbuilding shares must be going up now ;-)
See, Tapani, your oldtimer Pres. must be thinking now: "I outsmarted all
those hasty anti-Russians. The future historicians are going to write that
I ensured the bright future for the XXIth century Suomi".
condolescences,
D
Somnambulist Cesare
>In article 29...@husc14.harvard.edu, ver...@brauer.harvard.edu (Misha Verbitsky) writes:
>Listen, Misha..
>that is just fine with me that you studied Torah from the day of your birth..
>( I do not know how you could do it living in the USSR.)
Have you ever heard of samizdat?
>I am still convinced that Jewish culture in Ex-USSR was completely suppressed
>as much as religious freedom.
Certainly, as well as most human rights.
I mean, that once someone has the human
rights, the cultural autonomy and similar
movements are not necessarily, but rather
breed hatred and ignorance. Look at the Hispanic
people in US. They are pretty well off without
any knowledge of English. Now suppose they
would demand the cultural autonomy like French-Canadians
(which Hispanics don't really need, mind you). This would
immediately create discourse between Whites and Hispanics
and (considering how dangerous nationalism is)
could lead to riots like in LA.
I mean that one must distinguish between the rights
of individuals (human rights, which are in sorry
condition in Baltics) and the rights of collectives.
Later are the main point of Estonian legalist
activity. I believe that rights given to any kind
of collective (like, to some ethnic group) are harmful.
People who are thinking of the ethnic rights are
usually Nazi-minded individuals like Ain.
Misha.
Eduard Ponarin
*> It is absolutely clear to me that "being born in the independent
*> Republic of Estonia" is just Estonian government's proxy for
*> non-Estonians. In 1945 non-Estonians constituted only 6% of the
*> Estonian population.
*Exactly, after atrocities done by the two terror regimes. But in the end of
*thirties, ethnic Estonians were about 88% of Estonian citizens. The
*Soviet regime changed this fact with strategic migration, of course.
*> Most of them lived in Pechery which is now
*> a part of Pskov Province of Russia. (Those Russians who lived
*> in Estonia before 1945 fled from the Communists or were repressed
*> by them much like the native Estonian population.)
*Not only in Pechery/Petseri but also in West Estonia (Swedes) and in
*Tallinn and Tartu (Germans and Jews), in Narva and V6rumaa
*(Russians).
Swedes had fled the country in 1944. So, in 1945
there were about 0% of Swedes in Estonia. Germans
were non-existant in Estonia in 1945 as well as Jews.
Try to at least stick to the facts, you moron.
*> So, there is a
*> very good correlation between "being born in the independent
*> Republic of Estonia" and being ethnic Estonian.
*
*
*88 - 12, to be exact.
94 to 6, you stupid. And if you exclude the Russian
population of Pechery and Jaanilinn (Ivan-gorod) who
are NOT going to apply for Estonian citizenship, the
ratio will look like 98 to 2.
[...]
*Of course not, "Fascist states" should be destroyed, shouldn't they?
*In 1940, 1944 and 1996. You are continuing a solid tradition
*indeed. Just tell, how many Estonians will be deported, executed and
*arrested this time, on this "sunny day" you are promising us?
*asks
*the observer
*Tapani Hietaniemi
*from "near abroad"
You pervert nationalist! Where did I say that I endorse
fascism?
Ed Ponarin,
e...@umich.edu
Markku T. Keinanen
> Eduard Ponarin (e...@south.psc.lsa.umich.edu) wrote:
> > In fact, it seems to
> > be completely senseless and fruitless to argue with Estonian
> > fascists and their Scandinavian sympathizers.
> Then do not argue in a senseless and fruitless manner!
> FYI, every fourth of Russian citizens voted yesterday for "fascists"
> (Gaidar). They seem to love to plan violent actions abroad
> as you do in the following chapter:
> > On one sunny day
> > some time after 1996 Russian presidential elections Zhirinovskii's
> > tanks will roll in Tallinn. On that day I'll be depressed. But
> > not because I'll be sorry for the Estonian government.
These kind of statements, even half-jokingly given, do demonstrate a
big moral collapse, which has happened to many Russians.
The win of fascists in the Russian elections demonstrate exactly
the same thing.
> Of course not, "Fascist states" should be destroyed, shouldn't they?
> In 1940, 1944 and 1996. You are continuing a solid tradition
> indeed. Just tell, how many Estonians will be deported, executed and
> arrested this time, on this "sunny day" you are promising us?
I think that the only possibility for the "near abroad" countries is
to apply the NATO-membership immediately. We cannot just wait and
make jokes as was done before Hitler and Stalin showed their claws.
BTW, Mart Laar gave us a good advice: Join to the EU as soon as possible.
Finnish politicians do not seem to have enough courage to make right
decisions immediately. Estonians, can we loan him? :-)
Markku
--
Markku T. Kein{nen (mtke...@cc.helsinki.fi)
Eduard Ponarin
I mean that one must distinguish between the rights
of individuals (human rights, which are in sorry
condition in Baltics) and the rights of collectives.
Later are the main point of Estonian legalist
activity. I believe that rights given to any kind
of collective (like, to some ethnic group) are harmful.
People who are thinking of the ethnic rights are
usually Nazi-minded individuals like Ain.
Misha.
That's a good point. Prevalence of individual rights over
corporate rights is an attribute of democratic societies.
The reverse (corporate rights over individual rights) is
a feature of totalitarian and fascist societies.
Ed Ponarin,
e...@umich.edu
Henry Mednikoff
Mechta russkogo obivatelia
--------------------------
Tanki v Talline i Rige ?
Eto starie intrigi !
Mi chitali eto v knige -
Iskliuchat togda iz "Ligi"...
Vot pustili b luchshe "Migi"-
Ne ostalos' bi ni figi.
Henry
dmitry pruss
> BTW, Mart Laar gave us a good advice: Join to the EU as soon as possible.
>Finnish politicians do not seem to have enough courage to make right
>decisions immediately. Estonians, can we loan him? :-)
You better borrow our Vladimir Wolfovich ASAP... I, for one, would better
let him conquer Vipuri with Karjala _and_ lower alcohol taxes for you
Finns, rather than to run whatever wshiwuyu politics in Moscow.
As to what else Finland can do, I'd counsel you to try becoming a US
associated territory, like Puerto-Rico. This does help against an
aggression.
(Reunification with Sweden may help, too... but the familiar course of the
Swedish minority policies almost warrants your people's refusal to do so
:-(
Cheers,
totally degraded commie-fascist D
Christer Palm
Somnambulist Cesare <ver...@cauchy.mit.edu> wrote:
>In article <tammet.7...@cs.chalmers.se> tam...@cs.chalmers.se (Tanel Tammet) writes:
>>In <1993Dec10.1...@galois.mit.edu> ver...@cauchy.mit.edu (Misha Verbitsky) writes:
>
>>> I don't understand this "cultural autonomy" at all.
>>> What does it mean practiclayy, aside for PR and PC-talk?
>>> I have the perfect culturally autonomy of my own here in
>>> Cambridge and I have had one in Moscow as well.
>
>>schools to use foreign language) is not universally guaranteed.
>>I am not well versed when in comes to the US traditions, but for example
>>in Sweden (which is otherwise quite OK) the general principle is
>>to PROHIBIT the creation of any non-Swedish schools.
>
> I see. Well, if this is true this means that Sweden
> is terribly undemocratic. Even in Stalin's Russia
> there were lots of schools in Yiddish, Gypsy and most
> other local languages. Even Greeks and Turks and Germans
> have had their own cultural autonomy and schools
> before WWII...
>
>>In the hypothetical case where Swedish accepted a law like the cultural
>>minorites law of Estonia, the situation in regards to larger minorities
>>would soon be pretty different.
>
> Well, there was such a law under Bolshevics and I doubt this
> helped anybody. Pray better that Sweden will become
> a democratic state and will stop prohibiting its citizens
> obtaining the education they want to obtain.
>
In Sweden we have following schools:
Estonian
Finnish
French
English
German
Jewish
...
Whats the problem??? I can't understand you.
--
"Destiny makes relatives, selection makes friends."
Bertil Jonell
>>in Sweden (which is otherwise quite OK) the general principle is
>>to PROHIBIT the creation of any non-Swedish schools.
>
> I see. Well, if this is true this means that Sweden
> is terribly undemocratic.
But it is not.
What is more, in Sweden such schools will get State Support and does not
depend have to depend on donations and skyrocketing prices.
-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
exercise for your kill-file."
Markku T. Keinanen
> In article <MTKEINAN.93...@karhu.Helsinki.FI> mtke...@cc.helsinki.fi writes:
> > BTW, Mart Laar gave us a good advice: Join to the EU as soon as possible.
> >Finnish politicians do not seem to have enough courage to make right
> >decisions immediately. Estonians, can we loan him? :-)
> You better borrow our Vladimir Wolfovich ASAP... I, for one, would better
> let him conquer Vipuri with Karjala _and_ lower alcohol taxes for you
> Finns, rather than to run whatever wshiwuyu politics in Moscow.
I have never been for the returning of Vyborg (Viipuri). Vladimir
Volfovitsh is your fascist leader, so you have to got used to him.
Bullets are only good thing offered to him or to his troops in a foreign
territory, according to my opinion.
> As to what else Finland can do, I'd counsel you to try becoming a US
> associated territory, like Puerto-Rico. This does help against an
> aggression.
> (Reunification with Sweden may help, too... but the familiar course of the
> Swedish minority policies almost warrants your people's refusal to do so
> :-(
> totally degraded commie-fascist D
Well, indeed this posting shows your own tragedy. Again.
Markku
Misha Verbitsky
>>In article <tammet.7...@cs.chalmers.se> tam...@cs.chalmers.se (Tanel Tammet) writes:
>>>In <1993Dec10.1...@galois.mit.edu> ver...@cauchy.mit.edu (Misha Verbitsky) writes:
>>>> I don't understand this "cultural autonomy" at all.
>>>> What does it mean practiclayy, aside for PR and PC-talk?
>>>> I have the perfect culturally autonomy of my own here in
>>>> Cambridge and I have had one in Moscow as well.
>>>State support of foreign-language schools (or even just allowing
>>>schools to use foreign language) is not universally guaranteed.
>>>I am not well versed when in comes to the US traditions, but for example
>>>in Sweden (which is otherwise quite OK) the general principle is
>>>to PROHIBIT the creation of any non-Swedish schools.
>> I see. Well, if this is true this means that Sweden
>> is terribly undemocratic. Even in Stalin's Russia
>> there were lots of schools in Yiddish, Gypsy and most
>> other local languages. Even Greeks and Turks and Germans
>> have had their own cultural autonomy and schools
>> before WWII...
>In Sweden we have following schools:
>
> Estonian
> Finnish
> French
> English
> German
> Jewish
> ...
>
>Whats the problem??? I can't understand you.
>
Sorry, I took Tanel's words (see above) for truth.
I didn't mean to cause offense. Of course if he lied
then whatever I wrote about lack of freedom
in Sweden is not valid. Tanel wrote that as a rule
Sweden prohibits creation of schools with non-Swedish
language and that Estonian minoroty politics are
more democratic than Swedish.
Misha.
dmitry pruss
Subject: Re: The Verbitsky show, part 10E5
Summary:
Expires:
References: <MTKEINAN.93...@karhu.Helsinki.FI> <1993Dec13....@alw.nih.gov> <MTKEINAN.93...@karhu.Helsinki.FI>
Sender:
Followup-To:
Distribution:
Organization: National Institutes of Health, Bethesda
Keywords:
In article <MTKEINAN.93...@karhu.Helsinki.FI> mtke...@cc.helsinki.fi writes:
>In article <1993Dec13....@alw.nih.gov> pr...@helix.nih.gov (dmitry pruss) writes:
>
Amazing - didn't you stuff you KILL file with me ;-) ?
> > You better borrow our Vladimir Wolfovich ASAP... I, for one, would better
> > let him conquer Vipuri with Karjala _and_ lower alcohol taxes for you
> > Finns, rather than to run whatever wshiwuyu politics in Moscow.
>
> I have never been for the returning of Vyborg (Viipuri).
Of course you weren't. It's me who want you to get it back.
But as to alcohol taxation - you can't resist, can you?
> Bullets are only good thing offered to him or to his troops in a foreign
>territory, according to my opinion.
Including FYI:
Newsgroups: relcom.politics
From: "Vladimir Shiraev" <v...@shir.msk.su>
Subject: kratkie tezisy programmy liberalxno-demokrati~eskoj partii rossii
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1993 08:45:28 GMT
programma liberalxno- demokrati~eskoj partii rossii
pROGRAMMA MINIMUM
1. pREKRATITX WSQKU@ POM]X BLIVNEMU I DALXNEMU ZARUBEVX@.
|TO NA 30% ULU^[IT NA[U VIZNX.
2. pRIOSTANOWITX KONWERSI@ WOENNOJ PROMY[LENNOSTI. pRODOL-
VITX WYPUSKATX WOENNU@ PRODUKCI@ I PRODAWATX EE NA MIROWOM RYN-
KE, S KOTOROGO NAS OBMANOM WYTESNILI s{a, POOBE]AW NAM ZA NA[E
"RAZORUVENIE" ]EDRU@ POMO]X "W DOLG". nA[E ORUVIE POLXZUETSQ
SPROSOM NA ZARUBEVNOM RYNKE. pRODAWAQ EGO MY POWYSIM DOHODY NA-
[EJ STRANY E]E NA 30%.
3. pOKON^ITX S ORGANIZOWANNOJ PRESTUPNOSTX@ W TE^ENIE
NESKOLXKIH MESQCEW. wYWEZTI ZA PREDELY rOSSII SPEKULQNTOW,
WZWIN^IWA@]IH CENY NA PRIWOZIMYE IMI ^ASTO NEDOBROKA^ESTWENNYE
PRODUKTY. pREDOSTAWITX PRAWO TORGOWLI TOLXKO LICAM, IME@]IM
ROSSIJSKOE GRAVDANSTWO.
nezamedlitelxno na~atx wosstanawliwatx |konomiku strany:
pREDOSTAWITX WSEM WOZMOVNOSTX U^ASTWOWATX W PROIZWODSTWE.
uSILITX GOSSEKTOR. wOSTANOWITX RAZORWANNYE SWQZI GOSUDARSTWENNYH
PROMY[LENNYH PREDPRIQTIJ. pRIWATIZIROWATX TOLXKO MELKIE I SFERU
OBSLUVIWANIQ. nERENTABELXNYE PREDPRIQTIQ PEREPROFILIROWATX I
OBESPE^ITX RESURSAMI DLQ PROIZWODSTWA DEFICITNYH TOWAROW. pERE-
DATX W ^ASTNYJ SEKTOR DOLGOSTROJ.
vILXE BEZWOZMEZDNO PEREDATX W SOBSTWENNOSTX PROVIWA@]IH W
NEM. nEOBESPE^ENNYM VILXEM PREDOSTAWITX WOZMOVNOSTX EGO POLU^E-
NIQ S POSLEDU@]EJ WYPLATOJ STOIMOSTI W TE^ENII 25-30 LET.
zEMLQ NA PERWOM \TAPE OSTAETSQ WO WLADENII GOSUDARSTWA. vE-
LA@]IE GRAVDANE POLU^A@T ZEML@ W DOLGOSRO^NU@ ARENDU BEZ PREDWA-
RITELXNOJ OPLATY S PRAWOM NASLEDOWANIQ, NO BEZ PRAWA PRODAVI.
zEMLEPOLXZOWATELI - PROIZWODITELI SELXHOZPRODUKCII URAWNI-
WA@TSQ W PRAWAH.
60% PRIBYLI DOLVNO OSTAWATXSQ U PROIZWODITELQ.
lXGOTY TOLXKO OSTRONUVDA@]IMSQ. dLQ MALOIMU]IH TORGOWLQ PO
LIMITNYM TALONAM.
pREKRATITX DELATX DOLGI U INOSTRANNYH GOSUDARSTW. wZYSKATX
DOLGI S DOLVNIKOW rOSSII.
pRI RAZUMNOM SOKRA]ENII ARMII PEREBROSITX KADRY I PRO^IE
RESURSY W mwd I mb. wOENNU@ POMO]X OKAZYWATX TOLXKO TEHNIKOJ ZA
PLATU.
ldpr WYSTUPAET ZA WOSSOZDANIE rOSSIJSKOGO GOSUDARSTWA W
RAMKAH GRANIC BYW[EGO sssr.
ldpr S^ITAET NEOBHODIMYM OTKAZATXSQ OT NACIONALXNOGO DELE-
NIQ I WERNUTX PREVNEE, DOREWOL@CIONNOE TERRITORIALXNOE ADMINIST-
RATIWNOE DELENIE rOSSII NA GUBERNII I OBLASTI, IBO NACIONALXNOE
DELENIE - \TO ISTO^NIK KONFLIKTOW, RAZDOROW I GRAVDANSKIH WOJN.
rOSSIQ - OTE^ESTWO DLQ WSEH. wSE NARODY - BOLX[IE I MALYE - RAW-
NY PERED ZAKONOM, WSE OBLADA@T RAWNYMI PRAWAMI SOHRANENIQ OBY^A-
EW TRADICIJ I OBY^AEW, RAZWITIQ SWOEJ NACIONALXNOJ KULXTURY,
SWOBODY WEROISPOWEDANIQ.
dLQ WOSSOEDINENIQ ZEMELX rOSSII NE BUDET NADOBNOSTI PRIBE-
GATX K NASILI@. oSUTSTWIE POMO]I SO STORONY rf PRIWEDET K UHUD-
[ENI@ VIZNI VITELEJ "BLIVNEGO ZARUBEVXQ", POSLE ^EGO ONI POP-
ROSQT PRINQTX IH OBRATNO W SOSTAW rOSSSI.
----------------end qoute
He-he, I can post long chunks of the marginally relevant documentation
too :-) :-) :-)
You better KILL, Markku.
Ain Ainsaar
> In article <2ei5f5$p...@controversy.math.lsa.umich.edu> edp@south.
> psc.lsa.umich.edu (Eduard Ponarin) writes:
> >That this law is just a civilized-looking cover for the policies
> >of ethnic discrimination is clear from the following fact. When
> >things started to get real bad in Abkhazia, the population of a
> >few Estonian villages there were evacuated to Estonia. All of
> >them were recognized as Estonian citizens. Now, the ancestors of
> >those people migrated to Abkhazia in 1890s-1900s. They were never
> >citizens of Republic of Estonia. Many of them do not speak
> >Estonian and some of them even have Georgian last names. But
> >there is Estonian blood in their veins.
I know that it is a bit dangerous to touch Jews but still...
I have a friend of mine, a dark Estonian. Once, about 30 years ago,
a group of Estonians had to travel home from Leningrad but there were
no tickets left to the train to Tallinn. Fortunately one guy remembered
that the chief of the station is a Jew. The boys got the idea to send
the darkest one to the chief. So the dark man applied to the Jew and said,
trying to pronounce 'r` stronger: "My name is Rabinovich and we want
to go to Tallinn". The tickets were given at once. This was well-known
Jewish nationalism. It was laughed and admired but never disparaged.
Everybody knew that without a nationalism this nation could not
preserve their identity. The same applies to other small nations.
There would not be three specific Baltic cultures in the world after
the Soviet occupation, if these were not developed by nationalists.
That may not be confused with racism, chauvinism, or fascism.
The action of taking Caucasian Estonians to Estonia was not directed
against any other nation, was it?
I recommend everybody to think about how he/she would act if some of
his/her relatives would face a danger. Is there any difference in
being a relative or not?
Regards,
Ain
Jarmo Ryyti
: > Then do not argue in a senseless and fruitless manner!
: > FYI, every fourth of Russian citizens voted yesterday for "fascists"
: > (Gaidar). They seem to love to plan violent actions abroad
: > as you do in the following chapter:
Was it a suprise for you? For those who have followed the statements
produced by the Russians in these newsgroups it is no suprise.
You see nothing else but Russian chauvinism when reading the statements
of the xSoviets living in the exile in the west.
: > > On one sunny day
: > > some time after 1996 Russian presidential elections Zhirinovskii's
: > > tanks will roll in Tallinn. On that day I'll be depressed. But
: > > not because I'll be sorry for the Estonian government.
They are not Zhirinovskii's tanks but tanks of the Russian faschists.
It is hilarious that the Russians never learn. First they brought themselves
into the troubles with Stalin who cooperated with Hitler by dividing
Europe. The maneuver caused some tens of millions dead Russians,but
it seems to me that the Russians have not learned anything. They seem
to be more stupid than expected once again.
: These kind of statements, even half-jokingly given, do demonstrate a
: big moral collapse, which has happened to many Russians.
: The win of fascists in the Russian elections demonstrate exactly
: the same thing.
Yes because they have so hard heads. The election results just
indicate how stupid the Russians are.
I have told many times in this newsgroup that faschism and communism
are the different faces of the same coin.The Russians prove true once
again.
: I think that the only possibility for the "near abroad" countries is
: to apply the NATO-membership immediately. We cannot just wait and
: make jokes as was done before Hitler and Stalin showed their claws.
: BTW, Mart Laar gave us a good advice: Join to the EU as soon as possible.
: Finnish politicians do not seem to have enough courage to make right
: decisions immediately. Estonians, can we loan him? :-)
I agree totally. Chirinovsky was best what a pro-EU and Nato-movement
had hoped in Finland. Thank you very much!!!
I think Laar should be hired for some months as a consultant for the
Finnish government. He knows much better "Russian soul" than the Finns.
*jarmo*
Tanel Tammet
>> That this law is just a civilized-looking cover for the policies
>> of ethnic discrimination is clear from the following fact. When
>> things started to get real bad in Abkhazia, the population of a
>> few Estonian villages there were evacuated to Estonia. All of
>> them were recognized as Estonian citizens.
No, no, no. Of course not. The citizenship law says strictly
that automatic citizenship follows being born from parents who
were Estonian citizens. Ethnicity has NO bearing whatosever.
Any ethnic Estonians whose parents were not Estonian citizens
(due to migrating to Abkhzia at the end of the last century, for
example), are just regular foreigners and are NOT entitled to
automatic citizenship.
I do personally know ethnic Estonians who are NOT Estonian
citizens, for this very reason, and have to naturalize if they
want to become citizens.
As a matter of fact, I have written N+1 times about this, and
thus I am pretty surprised that people still come up with
completely wrong claims, and express themselves as if they
knew what they are speaking about.
The next time, dear Eduard, please ask somebody before you write
"All of them were recognized as Estonian citizens" with not
a bit of doubt in your expression.
>> those people migrated to Abkhazia in 1890s-1900s. They were never
>> citizens of Republic of Estonia. Many of them do not speak
>> Estonian and some of them even have Georgian last names. But
>> there is Estonian blood in their veins.
>> Thus, the current law on citizenship is applied to exlude ethnic
>> non-Estonians. At the same time, this law is ignored to include
>> ethnic Estonians.
So you go on arguing based on utter lies. Why?
Regards,
Tanel Tammet
Tanel Tammet
>In article <1993Dec13.1...@galois.mit.edu> ver...@cauchy.mit.edu (Somnambulist Cesare) writes:
> I mean that one must distinguish between the rights
> of individuals (human rights, which are in sorry
> condition in Baltics) and the rights of collectives.
> Later are the main point of Estonian legalist
> activity.
Now, in reality it is just the opposite.
The Estonian legalist activity is concentrated exactly on the
rights of individuals, not on the rights of collectives.
Eg, all the stuff around naturalization. A standard Moscow
complaint is that all the Soviet-time immigrants are not
given the Estonian citizenship as a monolithic collective,
but each particular person has to decide whether he/she wants
this citizenship in the first place.
In regards to the cultural autonomy law, the aim of that is indeed
focused on collectives, ie guaranteeing groups of people who
want some particular kind of schooling to get that what they prefer.
>That's a good point. Prevalence of individual rights over
>corporate rights is an attribute of democratic societies.
>The reverse (corporate rights over individual rights) is
>a feature of totalitarian and fascist societies.
Obvious.
Regards,
Tanel Tammet
Tanel Tammet
>In article <1993Dec13.1...@galois.mit.edu>,
>Somnambulist Cesare <ver...@cauchy.mit.edu> wrote:
>>In article <tammet.7...@cs.chalmers.se> tam...@cs.chalmers.se (Tanel Tammet) writes:
>>
>>>State support of foreign-language schools (or even just allowing
>>>schools to use foreign language) is not universally guaranteed.
>>>I am not well versed when in comes to the US traditions, but for example
>>>in Sweden (which is otherwise quite OK) the general principle is
>>>to PROHIBIT the creation of any non-Swedish schools.
>>
>> I see. Well, if this is true this means that Sweden
>> is terribly undemocratic. Even in Stalin's Russia
>> there were lots of schools in Yiddish, Gypsy and most
>> other local languages. Even Greeks and Turks and Germans
>> have had their own cultural autonomy and schools
>> before WWII...
>>
>In Sweden we have following schools:
> Estonian
> Finnish
> French
> English
> German
> Jewish
> ...
>Whats the problem??? I can't understand you.
As for me, I do not complain. IMHO the current Swedish legislation
is sensible when it comes to education.
However, as we all have been forced to learn from Jarmo, during fifties
and maybe even in the beginning of sixties, in Sweden it was strictly
forbidden for two finns to speak finnish between themselves in a
Swedish school.
It is deceptive to claim that there are Estonian, Finnish, French, ...
etc schools in Sweden. The official policy (at least during the
social democrat times) was against creating any such schools.
Eg, to my knowledge, there is not a single Finnish school in
Goteborg, a second largest city in Sweden with a big Finnish minority.
The reason, to my knowledge, was not that the finnish community
was not interested.
On the other hand, there is a small Estonian school in Goteborg.
It was created during fifties, after a long pressure from the Estonian
community for about ten years. The principal argument (as I have
heard it) enabling the creation of this school was exactly the
cultural autonomy law of pre-WWII Estonia, guaranteeing Swedish schools
for the Swedish minority. Now, as Finland is bi-lingual with Finnish
and Swedish, it looks like they could not use this argumentation,
at least not in Goteborg.
To summarize, it is in principle possible to create non-Swedish schools in
Sweden, but depending on the location and the governement at the time,
it may be extremely complicated. Not guaranteed, at least.
Although I do not agree at all with Jarmoist Sweden-bashing, I cannot
avoid memorizing some facts from his postings (and analogous information
from other people, too). IMHO, the obstacles on creating non-Swedish
schools, speeding up assimilation, are one of the factors what enables
Sweden to accept a huge number of asylum-seeking people.
Regards,
Tanel Tammet
Anders Sundin
>However, as we all have been forced to learn from Jarmo, during fifties
>and maybe even in the beginning of sixties, in Sweden it was strictly
>forbidden for two finns to speak finnish between themselves in a
>Swedish school.
This is not generally true. There was a pedagogic method
(can someone please name it?) which propagated for only using
the "weak" part of an ability as a means to improve it.
The weak part could be speaking the Swedish language,
or it could be using the right hand to write or draw.
Some of the implementations of that method were like torture
to the childern.
It was a very very bad pedagogic method and it was abandoned.
-Anders
--
Anders Sundin e-mail: Anders...@orgk2.lth.se
Organic Chemistry 2 ok2...@selund.bitnet
Lund University, P.O. Box 124 voice: +46 46 104130
S-22100 Lund, Sweden fax: +46 46 108209
Tapani Hietaniemi
> In article <2eiaoe$o...@karhu.Helsinki.FI> thie...@karhu.Helsinki.FI
(Tapani Hietaniemi) writes:
> *Eduard Ponarin (e...@south.psc.lsa.umich.edu) wrote:
> *> It is absolutely clear to me that "being born in the independent
> *> Republic of Estonia" is just Estonian government's proxy for
> *> non-Estonians. In 1945 non-Estonians constituted only 6% of the
> *> Estonian population.
> *Exactly, after atrocities done by the two terror regimes. But in the end of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> *thirties, ethnic Estonians were about 88% of Estonian citizens. The
^^^^^^^^
> *Soviet regime changed this fact with strategic migration, of course.
> *> Most of them lived in Pechery which is now
> *> a part of Pskov Province of Russia. (Those Russians who lived
> *> in Estonia before 1945 fled from the Communists or were repressed
> *> by them much like the native Estonian population.)
> *Not only in Pechery/Petseri but also in West Estonia (Swedes) and in
> *Tallinn and Tartu (Germans and Jews), in Narva and V6rumaa
> *(Russians).
> Swedes had fled the country in 1944. So, in 1945
> there were about 0% of Swedes in Estonia. Germans
> were non-existant in Estonia in 1945 as well as Jews.
> Try to at least stick to the facts, you moron.
Try to learn to read, I was speaking on the situation in the end of
thirties. Many Swedes were involved in maritime trades and crafts and
they fled Estonia in 1939-41 before the occupants. Only few hundreds
remained after 1944. They lived like prisoners in islands, they were
not allowed to possess any boats or travel anywhere. The remembrance
of the past freedom made this punishment even more bitter.
Hitler called most of Germans "Heim ins Reich" in 1939 accoridng
to politics of Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. The Soviet Union expelled
still some remaining Germans and some people who prentended to be
Germans.
The remaing Jews were executed by the German occupational regime in 1941.
> *> So, there is a
> *> very good correlation between "being born in the independent
> *> Republic of Estonia" and being ethnic Estonian.
> *
> *
> *88 - 12, to be exact.
> 94 to 6, you stupid.
No, you are stupid. 88% of people born in the independent republic of
Estonia were ethnic Estonians QED.
> And if you exclude the Russian
> population of Pechery and Jaanilinn (Ivan-gorod) who
> are NOT going to apply for Estonian citizenship, the
> ratio will look like 98 to 2.
I do not understand what you mean with the sentence above, but there
is pressure to immigrate to Estonia from East. Visit Narva and see
what it does mean to get one's salary in convertible currency and
do shopping in the rouble zone, in Jaanilinn.
> [...]
> *Of course not, "Fascist states" should be destroyed, shouldn't they?
> *In 1940, 1944 and 1996. You are continuing a solid tradition
> *indeed. Just tell, how many Estonians will be deported, executed and
> *arrested this time, on this "sunny day" you are promising us?
> You pervert nationalist! Where did I say that I endorse
> fascism?
You are pervert and of course deleted your perverse prophecy on Russian
tanks occupying Estonia, do you want me to post it again? At least it
was good you were ashamed of repeating it. Anyway, it's up to
Russia whether she continues the imperialist policy which has been
her tradition. Your previous comments clearly continued it.
With best regards
Tapani Hietaniemi
Helsinki
dmitry pruss
>> >of ethnic discrimination is clear from the following fact. When
>> >things started to get real bad in Abkhazia, the population of a
>> >few Estonian villages there were evacuated to Estonia. All of
>> >them were recognized as Estonian citizens. Now, the ancestors of
>> >those people migrated to Abkhazia in 1890s-1900s. They were never
>> >citizens of Republic of Estonia. Many of them do not speak
>> >Estonian and some of them even have Georgian last names. But
>> >there is Estonian blood in their veins.
>
explanation as well) :
>I know that it is a bit dangerous to touch Jews but still...
Thanx for your immence courage, Ain! (The story goes - how the Jews offered
connections to one another so as to thrive)
...
>no tickets left to the train to Tallinn. Fortunately one guy remembered
>that the chief of the station is a Jew...
the story finally comes to a conclusion:
>Is there any difference in
>being a relative or not?
>
>Regards,
>Ain
Thanx, Ain, now I got the term: when someone of Estonian descent, who is
not legally entitled to get Estonian citizienship, succesfully becomes a
citizien, it's merely a benign ethnicity-based connections at work.
When your govt. mocks a folk-tale Jewish Train Station Boss, it is not meant
to discriminate against anyone.
Thanx for clarification.
Thanx. Now it may become surprizing why so miniscule portion of the Estonian
Russians, who already gave up any attempt to naturalize , opted for
Zhirinovsky. (10% of the Estonian Russians got Russian citizienship, of
them, 2.5% voted, including 1.2% who supported LDP).
D
Ain Ainsaar
> In article <2eafn3$3...@karhu.Helsinki.FI> thie...@karhu.Helsinki.FI
> (Tapani Hietaniemi) writes:
> >Henry Mednikoff (he...@bms.com) wrote:
> >
> >> Just one thing comes to my mind : The Warsaw Ghetto.
> >> Polish Jews had their authonomy there: Police, schools,the synagouges
> >> etc.
> >> In the reality, Estonia needs equal rights for all her residents,
> >> and not just Jewish Cultural Authonomy. ^^^^^^^^^
Do you think citizenship is rubbish? You should start discussion somewhere
else!
> Thietani is rarely that sincere. But when he does not watch himself, he
> admits the existence of "separate development" (also known as "apartheid")
> in today's Estonia.
I imperatively recommend to read the document you are going to oppose to.
The Estonian Cultural Autonomy Legislation DOES NOT DENY, REFUSE, OR
RESTRICT ANYTHING. It FACILITATES SOME WAYS to develop different cultures
in addition to those that follow mere being a citizen in the world practice.
That cannot be compared with apartheid.
Regards,
Ain
Eduard Ponarin
>"All of them were recognized as Estonian citizens" with not
>a bit of doubt in your expression.
Well, this fact was widely discussed in both Russian and Estonian
media, so you can easily check whether they were recognized as
Estonian citizens or not. (What was the point of bringing them to
Estonia, then?) And the Estonian participant to this list, Ain
(forgot his last name), does not deny the fact.
Ed Ponarin,
e...@umich.edu
Eduard Ponarin
>> *88 - 12, to be exact.
>
>> 94 to 6, you stupid.
>
>No, you are stupid. 88% of people born in the independent republic of
>Estonia were ethnic Estonians QED.
No, it is you who are stupid or pretend to be. The point was that
among the current population of Estonia "being born in independent
Estonian Republic" correlates almost perfectly with being ethnic
Estonian. Jews, Swedes, Germans, and Russians of Pechery and
Ivan-gorod excluded, the ratio is 98 to 2. (Because, as you know,
Germans repatriated in late 1930s, Jews were exterminated in
1941-1944, Swedes left in 1944, and the Russians of Pechery and
Ivan-gorod no longer live on Estonian territory.)
>> You pervert nationalist! Where did I say that I endorse
>> fascism?
>
>You are pervert and of course deleted your perverse prophecy on Russian
>tanks occupying Estonia, do you want me to post it again?
In my prophecy I said that I would be sad on that day. I also
said that I'll be not sorry for the Estonian government. But
this does not mean that I will endorse the annexation.
Ed Ponarin,
e...@umich.edu
mkag...@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu
>mkag...@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu wrote:
>> In article <2eafn3$3...@karhu.Helsinki.FI> thie...@karhu.Helsinki.FI
>> (Tapani Hietaniemi) writes:
>> >Henry Mednikoff (he...@bms.com) wrote:
>> >
>> >> Just one thing comes to my mind : The Warsaw Ghetto.
>> >> Polish Jews had their authonomy there: Police, schools,the synagouges
>> >> etc.
>
>> >> In the reality, Estonia needs equal rights for all her residents,
>> >> and not just Jewish Cultural Authonomy. ^^^^^^^^^
>> admits the existence of "separate development" (also known as "apartheid")
>> in today's Estonia.
>
>I imperatively recommend to read the document you are going to oppose to.
>The Estonian Cultural Autonomy Legislation DOES NOT DENY, REFUSE, OR
>RESTRICT ANYTHING.
The other laws do. I think your ability to read needs improvement.
>It FACILITATES SOME WAYS to develop different cultures
>in addition to those that follow mere being a citizen in the world practice.
And thus, this law acknowledges that there going to be a large portion
of de facto second rate citizens in Baltic (and for a long time)
>That cannot be compared with apartheid.
It need not to be compared - it is.
Michael
Danny Keren
massacres in the Baltics. Note the total number of victims - 137,346. This
is for one Einsatzkommando, in a five month period, in one area.
(BTW, the name of the book this is copied from - 'The Good Old Days' - is
adopted from the diary of Treblinka's last commandant, Kurt Franz. This
is how he summarized his days in the camp. I mention this as, at some
occasions, people voiced wonder over the name).
Detailed report by SS-Standartenfuehrer Jager about mass killings
in Nazi occupied USSR, July-November 1941
['The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press,
NY, 1988, p. 46-58].
------------------------------------------------------------------
The Commander of
the security police and
the SD
Einsatzkommando 3 Kauen [Kaunas], 1 December 1941
--------------------------
|Secret Reich Business! | 5 copies
-------------------------- 4th copy
Complete list of executions carried out in the EK 3 area
up to 1 December 1941
Security police duties in Lithuania taken over by Einsatzkommando 3 on
2 July 1941.
(The Wilna [Vilnius] area was taken over by EK 3 on 9 Aug. 1941, the
Schaulen area on 2 Oct. 1941. Up until these dates EK 9 operated in
Wilna and EK 2 in Schaulen.)
On my instructions and orders the following executions were conducted by
Lithuanian partisans:
4.7.41 Kauen-Fort VII 416 Jews, 47 Jewesses 463
6.7.41 Kauen-Fort VII Jews 2,514
Following the formation of a raiding squad under the command of
SS-Obersturmfuherer Hamman and 8-10 reliable men from the
Einsatzkommando. the following actions were conducted in cooperation
with Lithuanian partisans:
7.7.41 Mariampole Jews 32
8.7.41 Mariampole 14 Jews, 5 Comm. officials 19
8.7.41 Girkalinei Comm. officials 6
9.7.41 Wendziogala 32 Jews, 2 Jewesses, 1 Lithuanian
(f.), 2 Lithuanian Comm., 1
Russian Comm. 38
9.7.41 Kauen-Fort VII 21 Jews, 3 Jewesses 24
14.7.41 Mariampole 21 Jews, 1 Russ., 9 Lith. Comm. 31
17.7.41 Babtei 8 Comm. officials (incl. 6 Jews) 8
18.7.41 Mariampole 39 Jews, 14 Jewesses 53
19.7.41 Kauen-Fort VII 17 Jews, 2 Jewesses, 4 Lith.
Comm., 2 Comm. Lithuanians (f.),
1 German Comm. 26
21.7.41 Panevezys 59 Jews, 11 Jewesses, 1
Lithuanian (f.), 1 Pole, 22 Lith.
Comm., 9 Russ. Comm. 103
22.7.41 Panevezys 1 Jew 1
23.7.41 Kedainiai 83 Jews, 12 Jewesses, 14 Russ.
Comm., 15 Lith. Comm., 1 Russ.
O-Politruk 125
25.7.41 Mariampole 90 Jews, 13 Jewesses 103
28.7.41 Panevezys 234 Jews, 15 Jewesses, 19 Russ.
Comm., 20 Lith. Comm. 288
Total carried forward 3,384
Sheet 2
Total carried over 3,384
29.7.41 Rasainiai 254 Jews, 3 Lith. Comm. 257
30.7.41 Agriogala 27 Jews, 11 Lith. Comm. 38
31.7.41 Utena 235 Jews, 16 Jewesses, 4 Lith.
Comm., 1 robber/murderer 256
31.7.41 Wendziogala 13 Jews, 2 murderers 15
1.8.41 Ukmerge 254 Jews, 42 Jewesses, 1 Pol.
Comm., 2 Lith. NKVD agents, 1
mayor of Jonava who gave order
to set fire to Jonava 300
2.8.41 Kauen-Fort IV 170 Jews, 1 US Jewess, 33 Jewesses,
4 Lith. Comm. 209
4.8.41 Panevezys 362 Jews, 41 Jewesses, 5 Russ. Comm.,
14 Lith. Comm. 422
5.8.41 Rasainiai 213 Jews, 66 Jewesses 279
7.8.41 Utena 483 Jews, 87 Jewesses, 1 Lithuanian
(robber of corpses of German soldiers)571
8.8.41 Ukmerge 620 Jews, 82 Jewesses 702
9.8.41 Kauen-Fort IV 484 Jews, 50 Jewesses 534
11.8.41 Panevezys 450 Jews, 48 Jewesses, 1 Lith. 1 Russ.500
13.8.41 Alytus 617 Jews, 100 Jewesses, 1 criminal 719
14.8.41 Jonava 497 Jews, 55 Jewesses 552
15-16.8.41 Rokiskis 3,200 Jews, Jewesses, and J. Children,
5 Lith. Comm., 1 Pole, 1 partisan 3207
9-16.8.41 Rasainiai 294 Jewesses, 4 Jewish children 298
27.6-14.8.41 Rokiskis 493 Jews, 432 Russians, 56 Lithuanians
(all active communists) 981
18.8.41 Kauen-Fort IV 689 Jews, 402 Jewesses, 1 Pole (f.),
711 Jewish intellectuals from Ghetto
in reprisal for sabotage action 1,812
19.8.41 Ukmerge 298 Jews, 255 Jewesses, 1 Politruk,
88 Jewish children, 1 Russ. Comm. 645
22.8.41 Dunanburg 3 Russ. Comm., 5 Latvian, incl. 1
murderer, 1 Russ. Guardsman, 3 Poles,
3 gypsies (m.), 1 gypsy (f.), 1 gypsy
child, 1 Jew, 1 Jewess, 1 Armenian
(m.), 2 Politruks (prison inspection
in Dunanburg 21
Total carried forward 16,152
Sheet 3
Total carried forward 16,152
22.8.41 Aglona Mentally sick: 269 men, 227 women,
48 children 544
23.8.41 Panevezys 1,312 Jews, 4,602 Jewesses, 1,609
Jewish children 7,523
18-22.8.41 Kreis Rasainiai 466 Jews, 440 Jewesses, 1,020
Jewish children 1,926
25.8.41 Obeliai 112 Jews, 627 Jewesses, 421
Jewish children 1,160
25-26.8.41 Seduva 230 Jews, 275 Jewesses, 159
Jewish children 664
26.8.41 Zarasai 767 Jews, 1,113 Jewesses, 1 Lith.
Comm., 687 Jewish children, 1 Russ.
Comm. (f.) 2,569
28.8.41 Pasvalys 402 Jews, 738 Jewesses, 209
Jewish children 1,349
26.8.41 Kaisiadorys All Jews, Jewesses, and Jewish
children 1,911
27.8.41 Prienai All Jews, Jewesses, and Jewish
Children 1,078
27.8.41 Dagda and 212 Jews, 4 Russ. POW's 216
Kraslawa
27.8.41 Joniskia 47 Jews, 165 Jewesses, 143
Jewish children 355
28.8.41 Wilkia 76 Jews, 192 Jewesses, 134
Jewish children 402
28.8.41 Kedainiai 710 Jews, 767 Jewesses, 599
Jewish children 2,076
29.8.41 Rumsiskis and 20 Jews, 567 Jewesses, 197
Ziezmariai Jewish children 784
29.8.41 Utena and 582 Jews, 1,731 Jewesses, 1,469
Moletai Jewish children 3,782
13-31.8.41 Alytus and
environs 233 Jews 233
1.9.41 Mariampole 1,763 Jews, 1,812 Jewesses, 1,404
Jewish children, 109 mentally sick,
1 German subject (f.), married to a
Jew, 1 Russian (f.) 5090
Total carried over 47,814
Sheet 4
Total carried over 47,814
28.8-2.9.41 Darsuniskis 10 Jews, 69 Jewesses, 20
Jewish children 99
Carliava 73 Jews, 113 Jewesses, 61
Jewish children 247
Jonava 112 Jews, 1,200 Jewesses, 244
Jewish children 1,556
Petrasiunai 30 Jews, 72 Jewesses, 23
Jewish children 125
Jesuas 26 Jews, 72 Jewesses, 46
Jewish children 144
Agriogala 207 Jews, 260 Jewesses, 195
Jewish children 662
Jasvainai 86 Jews, 110 Jewesses, 86
Jewish children 282
Babtei 20 Jews, 41 Jewesses, 22
Jewish children 83
Wendziogala 42 Jews, 113 Jewesses, 97
Jewish children 252
Krakes 448 Jews, 476 Jewesses, 97
Jewish children 1,125
4.9.41 Pravenischkis 247 Jews, 6 Jewesses 253
Cekiske 22 Jews, 64 Jewesses, 60
Jewish children 146
Seredsius 6 Jews, 61 Jewesses, 126
Jewish children 193
Velinona 2 Jews, 71 Jewesses, 86
Jewish children 159
Zapiskis 47 Jews, 118 Jewesses, 13
Jewish children 178
5.9.41 Ukmerge 1,123 Jews, 1,849 Jewesses, 1,737
Jewish children 4,709
25.8-6.9.41 Mopping up in: 16 Jews, 412 Jewesses, 415
Rasainiai Jewish children 843
Georgenburg all Jews, all Jewesses, all
Jewish children 412
9.9.41 Alytus 287 Jews, 640 Jewesses, 352
Jewish children 1,279
9.9.41 Butrimonys 67 Jews, 370 Jewesses, 303
Jewish children 740
10.9.41 Merkine 223 Jews, 640 Jewesses, 276
Jewish children 854
10.9.41 Varena 541 Jews, 141 Jewesses, 149
Jewish children 831
11.9.41 Leipalingis 60 Jews, 70 Jewesses, 25
Jewish children 155
11.9.41 Seirijai 229 Jews, 384 Jewesses, 340
Jewish children 953
12.9.41 Simnas 68 Jews, 197 Jewesses, 149
Jewish children 414
11-12.9.41 Uzusalis Reprisal against inhabitants who
fed Russ. partisans; some in
possession of weapons 43
26.9.41 Kauen-F.IV 412 Jews, 615 Jewesses, 581
Jewish children (sick and
suspected epidemic cases) 1,608
Total carries over 66,159
Sheet 5
Total carried over 66,159
2.10.41 Zagare 633 Jews, 1,107 Jewesses, 496
Jewish children (as these Jews were
being led away a mutiny rose, which
was however immediately put down;
150 Jews were shot immediately; 7
partisans wounded) 2,236
4.10.41 Kauen-F.IX 315 Jews, 712 Jewesses, 818
Jewish children (reprisal after
German police officer shot in ghetto) 1,845
29.10.41 Kauen-F.IX 2,007 Jews, 2,920 Jewesses, 4,273
Jewish children (mopping up ghetto
of superfluous Jews) 9,200
3.11.41 Lazdijai 485 Jews, 511 Jewesses, 539
Jewish children 1,535
15.11.41 Wilkowiski 36 Jews, 48 Jewesses, 31
Jewish children 115
25.11.41 Kauen-F.IX 1,159 Jews, 1,600 Jewesses, 175
Jewish children (resettlers from
Berlin, Munich and Frankfurt am main) 2,934
29.11.41 Kauen-F.IX 693 Jews, 1,155 Jewesses, 152
Jewish children (resettlers from
from Vienna and Breslau) 2,000
29.11.41 Kauen-F.IX 17 Jews, 1 Jewess, for contravention
of ghetto law, 1 Reichs German who
converted to the Jewish faith and
attended rabbinical school, then 15
terrorists from the Kalinin group 34
EK 3 detachment in Dunanburg
in the period 13.7-21.8.41: 9,012 Jews, Jewesses and Jewish
children, 573 active Comm. 9,585
EK 3 detachment in Wilna:
12.8-1.9.41 City of Wilna 425 Jews, 19 Jewesses, 8 Comm. (m.),
9 Comm. (f.) 461
2.9.41 City of Wilna 864 Jews, 2,019 Jewesses, 817
Jewish children (sonderaktion because
German soldiers shot at by Jews) 3,700
Total carried forward 99,084
sheet 6
Total carried forward 99,804
12.9.41 City of Wilna 993 Jews, 1,670 Jewesses, 771
Jewish children 3,334
17.9.41 City of Wilna 337 Jews, 687 Jewesses, 247
Jewish children and 4 Lith. Comm. 1,271
20.9.41 Nemencing 128 Jews, 176 Jewesses, 99
Jewish children 403
22.9.41 Novo-Wilejka 468 Jews, 495 Jewesses, 196
Jewish children 1,159
24.9.41 Riess 512 Jews, 744 Jewesses, 511
Jewish children 1,767
25.9.41 Jahiunai 215 Jews, 229 Jewesses, 131
Jewish children 575
27.9.41 Eysisky 989 Jews, 1,636 Jewesses, 821
Jewish children 3,446
30.9.41 Trakai 366 Jews, 483 Jewesses, 597
Jewish children 1,446
4.10.41 City of Wilna 432 Jews, 1,115 Jewesses, 436
Jewish children 1,983
6.10.41 Semiliski 213 Jews, 359 Jewesses, 390
Jewish children 962
9.10.41 Svenciany 1,169 Jews, 1,840 Jewesses, 717
Jewish children 3,726
16.10.41 City of Wilna 382 Jews, 507 Jewesses, 257
Jewish children 1,146
21.10.41 City of Wilna 718 Jews, 1,063 Jewesses, 586
Jewish children 2,367
25.10.41 City of Wilna 1,776 Jewesses, 812 Jewish children 2,578
27.10.41 City of Wilna 946 Jews, 184 Jewesses, 73
Jewish children 1,203
30.10.41 City of Wilna 382 Jews, 789 Jewesses, 362
Jewish children 1,553
6.11.41 City of Wilna 340 Jews, 749 Jewesses, 252
Jewish children 1,341
19.11.41 City of Wilna 76 Jews, 77 Jewesses, 18
Jewish children 171
19.11.41 City of Wilna 6 POW's, 8 Poles 14
20.11.41 City of Wilna 3 POW's 3
25.11.41 City of Wilna 9 Jews, 46 Jewesses, 8 Jewish
children, 1 Pole for possession of arms
and other military equipment 64
EK 3 detachment in Minsk from
28.9-17.10.41:
Pleschnitza 620 Jews, 1,285 Jewesses,
Bischolin 1,126 Jewish children and 19
Scak Comm.
Bober
Uzda 3,050
--------
133,346
Prior to EK 3 taking over security police duties, Jews liquidated
by pogroms and executions (including partisans) 4,000
-----------
Total 137,346
Today I can confirm that our objective, to solve the Jewish problem for
Lithuania, has been achieved by EK 3. In Lithuania there are no more
Jews, apart from Jewish workers and their families.
.
.
.
The distance between from the assembly point to the graves was on average
4 to 5 Km.
.
.
.
I consider the Jewish action more or less terminated as far as
Einsatzkommando 3 is concerned. Those working Jews and Jewesses still
available are needed urgently and I can envisage that after the winter
this workforce will be required even more urgently. I am of the view
that the sterilization program of the male worker Jews should be
started immediately so that reproduction is prevented. If despite
sterilization a Jewess becomes pregnant she will be liquidated.
.
.
.
(signed) Jager
SS-Standartenfuehrer
Tapani Hietaniemi
> In article <2ek8vc$k...@karhu.Helsinki.FI> thie...@karhu.Helsinki.FI
(Tapani Hietaniemi) writes:
> >88% of people born in the independent republic of
> >Estonia were ethnic Estonians QED.
> No, it is you who are stupid or pretend to be. The point was that
> among the current population of Estonia "being born in independent
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Estonian Republic" correlates almost perfectly with being ethnic
> Estonian.
To hide your stupidity, you have deleted the initial question:
but here is the point anyhow:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
You wrote:
> *> So, there is a
> *> very good correlation between "being born in the independent
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> *> Republic of Estonia" and being ethnic Estonian.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I corrected:
> *88 - 12, to be exact.
You repeated the mistake:
> 94 to 6, you stupid.
Which I rectified:
No, you are stupid. 88% of people born in the independent republic of
Estonia were ethnic Estonians QED.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you change the question with adding the words "among the current
population", we get, of course, a different picture. And we must count also
the Estonian citizens living OUTSIDE the Estonian Republic to get a proper
picture, there are approximately 100.000 Estonian citizens (of various
nationalities) residing outside the Estonian republic, mostly in USA,
Canada, Australia, Sweden and Russia. I must remind you of the fact that
even an important part of Estonia Jews (if not a majority) escaped the
holocaust by deserting the country. And numerous Estonia Germans and
Swedes and their descendants still have the Estonian citizenship. Only
because of the aggressors from the West and East they were forced to
leave the country in the fourties.
But from your behavior I guess that a rational discussion is not what
you are looking for.
With best regards
the observer
Tapani Hietaniemi
University of Helsinki
Bertil Jonell
>It is deceptive to claim that there are Estonian, Finnish, French, ...
>etc schools in Sweden. The official policy (at least during the
>social democrat times) was against creating any such schools.
Wrong, the official policy was not just against the creation of any such
(meaning non-Swedish-language schools), it was against the creation of
any and all schools apart from the State school.
>Although I do not agree at all with Jarmoist Sweden-bashing,
So you agree with some of it?!
> Tanel Tammet
Tanel Tammet
>In article <tammet.7...@cs.chalmers.se> tam...@cs.chalmers.se (Tanel Tammet) writes:
>>It is deceptive to claim that there are Estonian, Finnish, French, ...
>>etc schools in Sweden. The official policy (at least during the
>>social democrat times) was against creating any such schools.
> Wrong, the official policy was not just against the creation of any such
>(meaning non-Swedish-language schools), it was against the creation of
>any and all schools apart from the State school.
So you do agree with the facts.
>>Although I do not agree at all with Jarmoist Sweden-bashing,
> So you agree with some of it?!
I agree with the facts that are true beyond reasonable doubt.
I do not agree with bashing, particularly 'Sweden-bashing'.
For one thing, IMHO the policy towards minorities (finlandswedes
excluded) is actually harsh in Finland, but not in Sweden.
Sweden supports fast assimilation, which is not necessarily
negative.
Besides, it would have been impossible for Sweden to accept
huge numbers of refugees without having a policy to support
fast assimilation, what is indeed exemplary. Different
policies have different reasons and different consequences.
I am surprised when you mark mentioning some aspects of the
Swedish social-democratic policy towards minorities as
'bashing'. The only way I can understand your opinion is that
for some reason you have an immense dislike of the beforementioned
policy and would prefer to keep all the facts under the carpet.
In that case it would be a better tactics to keep quiet and not
enter any discussions at all. You, in contrary, are trying
to create a big fuss over the whole issue.
Regards,
Tanel Tammet
Antti A Lahelma
>For one thing, IMHO the policy towards minorities (finlandswedes
>excluded) is actually harsh in Finland, but not in Sweden.
How exactly is it harsher in Finland than in Sweden? I agree that the
Finnish immigrant policy is unreasonably harsh, but the minority policy?
For all I know, that's a completely different thing.
(And yes, there *are* other minorities in Finland than the Swedish-speakers)
--
Antti Lahelma GNOTHI SEAUTON "Tragedy is the farce that involves our
alah...@cc.helsinki.fi TUNNE ITSESI sympathies: farce is the tragedy that
University of Helsinki KNOW THYSELF happens to outsiders." --Aldous Huxley
vad...@vms.huji.ac.il
--
Bullshit. I don't give a dime of trust to this fake.
If you ever visited Israel, or any sinagogue in Baltics, Byelorussia or Ukrain,
you would mention that proportion of dark-haired Ashkenazic
Jews isn't higher than that of any other ethnicity.
That you identify as a Jew only a hook-nosed and dark-haired dark-eyed one in
the crowd just says that you miss 80% of Jews in the crowd.
The story of mixing up however dark-haired Estonian with a Jew by a Jew in
post- War Soviet Union sounds like a guy from Wisconsin cattle farm taking
Uzbek with TOEFLE score 210 for another Wisconsin cattle-breeder.
Or me, knowing in Finnish "yo malauta" and "kaiki loopa" being taken for Finn
in Helsinki (I'm grey - haired and blue-eyed).
Peter V.Vorobieff
>FYI, every fourth of Russian citizens voted yesterday for "fascists"
>(Gaidar). They seem to love to plan violent actions abroad
>as you do in the following chapter:
Please _read_ carefully what _you_ wrote.
Any comments?
[later, responding to Ed Ponarin...]
>> On one sunny day
>> some time after 1996 Russian presidential elections Zhirinovskii's
>> tanks will roll in Tallinn. On that day I'll be depressed. But
>> not because I'll be sorry for the Estonian government.
>
>Of course not, "Fascist states" should be destroyed, shouldn't they?
>In 1940, 1944 and 1996. You are continuing a solid tradition
>indeed. Just tell, how many Estonians will be deported, executed and
>arrested this time, on this "sunny day" you are promising us?
Ever heard about irony? Ed Ponarin is not renowned as a master of
subtle jokes, it was laid here pretty thick...
Tapani, you're as delicate as a blow with a sledgehammer and as sharp
as a paper bag with cat vomit. I admire you. Dr. Spooner himself
would probably call you "a shining wit". Sometimes reading just one of
your messages is enough to make my day.
May your diet be ever well-balanced and your bladder movements regular
and timely.
---
Thus spake Kalmoth the Vile, Wielder of the Warhammer of the Underworld.
Kibak
>> Although I do not agree at all with Jarmoist Sweden-bashing,
> So you agree with some of it?!
This is why this newsgroup should be in 7-bit Danish or Swedish.
-Henrik :-)
marj...@cc.helsinki.fi
vad...@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
> Bullshit. I don't give a dime of trust to this fake.
> If you ever visited Israel, or any sinagogue in Baltics, Byelorussia or Ukrain,
> you would mention that proportion of dark-haired Ashkenazic
> Jews isn't higher than that of any other ethnicity.
> That you identify as a Jew only a hook-nosed and dark-haired dark-eyed one in
> the crowd just says that you miss 80% of Jews in the crowd.
> The story of mixing up however dark-haired Estonian with a Jew by a Jew in
> post- War Soviet Union sounds like a guy from Wisconsin cattle farm taking
> Uzbek with TOEFLE score 210 for another Wisconsin cattle-breeder.
> Or me, knowing in Finnish "yo malauta" and "kaiki loopa" being taken for Finn
> in Helsinki (I'm grey - haired and blue-eyed).
(Perhaps this has nothing to do with Soviet politics...)
"Yo malauta" is actually "jumalauta", literally: "God, help me!",
but nowadays used as a curse. "Kaiki" is obviously "kaikki" =
all/everything, but I cannot understand "loopa" - even though I
tried to think of all possible ways to pronounce/write it.
--
#######################################################################
# J.J. Marjanen MARJANEN@FINUH (EARN/BITNET) #
# Helsingin yliopisto - MARJ...@cc.Helsinki.FI (Internet) #
# University of Helsinki MARJ...@helsinki.funet (EAN/X.400) #
# Suomi - Finland HYLK::MARJANEN (NORDUNET/DECNET) #
# MARJ...@hylkn1.Helsinki.FI #
#######################################################################
Lars-Henrik Eriksson
In article <tammet.7...@cs.chalmers.se> tam...@cs.chalmers.se (Tanel Tammet) writes:
>Although I do not agree at all with Jarmoist Sweden-bashing,
So you agree with some of it?!
The fact that Jarmo's style is obnoxious shouldn't hide the fact that
some of the things he writes are correct and/or relevant.
Sweden is not perfect. (But almost:-)
--
Lars-Henrik Eriksson Internet: l...@sics.se
Swedish Institute of Computer Science Phone (intn'l): +46 8 752 15 09
Box 1263 Telefon (nat'l): 08 - 752 15 09
S-164 28 KISTA, SWEDEN Fax: +46 8 751 72 30
Tapani Hietaniemi
> In article <2eiaoe$o...@karhu.Helsinki.FI> thie...@karhu.Helsinki.FI
(Tapani Hietaniemi) writes:
Ed Ponarin wrote, starting this round:
> >> On one sunny day
> >> some time after 1996 Russian presidential elections Zhirinovskii's
> >> tanks will roll in Tallinn. On that day I'll be depressed. But
> >> not because I'll be sorry for the Estonian government.
> >
> >Of course not, "Fascist states" should be destroyed, shouldn't they?
> >In 1940, 1944 and 1996. You are continuing a solid tradition
> >indeed. Just tell, how many Estonians will be deported, executed and
> >arrested this time, on this "sunny day" you are promising us?
> Ever heard about irony? Ed Ponarin is not renowned as a master of
> subtle jokes, it was laid here pretty thick...
Perhaps it might be a joke to you, but I fail to find anything amusing
in continuous threats against neigbouring small and peaceful states.
And sometimes, Russians make these political jokes reality. They just elected
one "joke" the leading parlamentarian, didn't they?
As the Queen Victoria said: "We are not amused".
With best regards
Tapani Hietaniemi
Helsinki, "near abroad"
Ain Ainsaar
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics,talk.politics.soviet
References: <1993Dec10.0...@husc14.harvard.edu> <1993Dec12....@enea.se> <2ejt19$p...@osiris.kbfi.ee> <1993Dec15....@vms.huji.ac.il>
Distribution: world
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Subject: Re: Ain, don't take us for babies!
Newsgroups: soc.culture.baltics,talk.politics.soviet
References: <1993Dec10.0...@husc14.harvard.edu> <1993Dec12....@enea.se> <2ejt19$p...@osiris.kbfi.ee> <1993Dec15....@vms.huji.ac.il>
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vad...@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:
> In article <2ejt19$p...@osiris.kbfi.ee>, a...@anubis.kbfi.ee (Ain Ainsaar)
> writes:
> > dmitry pruss (pr...@helix.nih.gov) wrote:
> >> In article <2ei5f5$p...@controversy.math.lsa.umich.edu> edp@south.
> >> psc.lsa.umich.edu (Eduard Ponarin) writes:
> > I know that it is a bit dangerous to touch Jews but still...
> > I have a friend of mine, a dark Estonian. Once, about 30 years ago,
< . . . >
> Bullshit. I don't give a dime of trust to this fake.
Oh yes, there seems to be some danger encoded... Evidently, there will follow
severe arguments against something I have expressed. Let' read on ...
> If you ever visited Israel, or any sinagogue in Baltics, Byelorussia or Ukrain,
> you would mention that proportion of dark-haired Ashkenazic
> Jews isn't higher than that of any other ethnicity.
> That you identify as a Jew only a hook-nosed and dark-haired dark-eyed one in
> the crowd just says that you miss 80% of Jews in the crowd.
> The story of mixing up however dark-haired Estonian with a Jew by a Jew in
> post- War Soviet Union sounds like a guy from Wisconsin cattle farm taking
> Uzbek with TOEFLE score 210 for another Wisconsin cattle-breeder.
> Or me, knowing in Finnish "yo malauta" and "kaiki loopa" being taken for Finn
> in Helsinki (I'm grey - haired and blue-eyed).
I wonder! I cannot read here anything opposing my statements. Perhaps you
are quite right but it would say nothing about the well-known existing
Jewish solidarity (that I appreciate btw). One should not pay too much
attention to the example that worked, no doubt. It was not misinterpreted
despite your statements, why should it? The world is full of little and
big babies and no nation is missing them, even if the nation is our
own beloved one.
Regards,
Ain
Tanel Tammet
>In <tammet.7...@cs.chalmers.se> tam...@cs.chalmers.se (Tanel Tammet) writes:
>>For one thing, IMHO the policy towards minorities (finlandswedes
>>excluded) is actually harsh in Finland, but not in Sweden.
> How exactly is it harsher in Finland than in Sweden? I agree that the
> Finnish immigrant policy is unreasonably harsh, but the minority policy?
> For all I know, that's a completely different thing.
Oh, well, it looks like I did not express myself correctly. Sorry.
It was just an unfortunate mistake.
Trying to be more careful:
* as you agree, the Finnish immigrant policy is unreasonably harsh.
This, however, is something really to be decided by Finns, and
not the outer world, thus I won't complain. In contrast, the
Swedish immigrant policy is (mostly) extremely liberal, while
there are weird cases now and then of the opposite (eg it seems
that Sweden does not strictly follow the principle of allowing
the families to stay together)
* For some reasons the Finnish society is uncommonly afraid of
foreigners (thus the harsh immigrant policy). Now, I have had
an impression that this nervosity towards foreigners has
a few extra effects in addition to the immigration policy.
Maybe I am wrong; here I wouldn't say that I am certain in
my impressions. Nevertheless I'll note some of the observations
from the media. Eg, I remember cases a few years ago when at
least one of the camps of refugees in inner Finland was raided,
several times, by people firing shotguns to the camp. The attitudes
of people living in the community seemed to be extremely hostile
towards the camp and the refugees. Despite (or rather due to) the
fact that Finland accepted very few refugees. The second point
I have heard is that police in Helsinki was said to be quite
active in checking documents of foreign-looking people (esp
black people) in Helsinki, supposedly to catch illegal immigrants.
The claimed problem was that if you were black, your chances of being
caught and checked out by the police without any apparent reason
were relatively high. I am not sure that the situation was actually
like it was claimed to be; it is just something I caught from the media.
* What is the actual reason that most of the refugees arriving to
Finland soon continue towards Sweden? As I understand it, Finland
has signed a treaty promising refuge to people who can demonstrate
that their lives are in danger, etc etc, just like Sweden. Is it that
the criteria are much stricter or that the refugees just prefer
Sweden, for one or another reason? If they do indeed prefer Sweden,
then why?
> (And yes, there *are* other minorities in Finland than the Swedish-speakers)
I remember that quite recently the russian minority if Finland started
asking for greater rights of some kind; don't remember what exactly did
they ask for. Anyway, how is the situation with the russian minority
(I am asking since I am quite ignorant about it): how many are there,
do they want to have any russian schools, are there any russian schools
(perhaps there is one at the embassy; in that case, can ordinary russians
use the school?), how is the policy towards existing or would-be russian
schools or kindergartens?
Regards,
Tanel Tammet
Jarmo Ryyti
: I don't know why I entered this discussion. In fact, it seems to
: be completely senseless and fruitless to argue with Estonian
: fascists and their Scandinavian sympathizers. On one sunny day
: some time after 1996 Russian presidential elections Zhirinovskii's
: tanks will roll in Tallinn. On that day I'll be depressed. But
: not because I'll be sorry for the Estonian government.
It seems to me that Z-virus is spreading and doing well in scb too...
*jarmo*
Bertil Jonell
>d9be...@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell) writes:
>>In article <tammet.7...@cs.chalmers.se> tam...@cs.chalmers.se (Tanel Tammet) writes:
>> Wrong, the official policy was not just against the creation of any such
>>(meaning non-Swedish-language schools), it was against the creation of
>>any and all schools apart from the State school.
>
>So you do agree with the facts.
What? You said that the social democratic policy was against the creation
of any non-Swedish language schools. That is formally true but to be honest
in this discussion you should also write that they didn't like the creation
of *any* schools.
>>>Although I do not agree at all with Jarmoist Sweden-bashing,
>
>> So you agree with some of it?!
>
>I agree with the facts that are true beyond reasonable doubt.
>I do not agree with bashing, particularly 'Sweden-bashing'.
But you just said that you agreed with some Sweden-bashing!
'I don't disagree with all bashing' *means* 'I agree with some bashing'
Bertil Jonell
>* as you agree, the Finnish immigrant policy is unreasonably harsh.
> This, however, is something really to be decided by Finns, and
> not the outer world, thus I won't complain.
Why the double standard? The rest of the world has sure made their wishes
about the Swedish refugee policy known.
Antti A Lahelma
>* For some reasons the Finnish society is uncommonly afraid of
> foreigners (thus the harsh immigrant policy). Now, I have had
> an impression that this nervosity towards foreigners has
> a few extra effects in addition to the immigration policy.
> Maybe I am wrong; here I wouldn't say that I am certain in
> my impressions. Nevertheless I'll note some of the observations
> from the media. Eg, I remember cases a few years ago when at
> least one of the camps of refugees in inner Finland was raided,
> several times, by people firing shotguns to the camp. The attitudes
> of people living in the community seemed to be extremely hostile
> towards the camp and the refugees.
True, there were attacks against a refugee center in Valkeala some years
ago (and possibly some other cases, can't remember just now). There hasn't
been any new ones to my knowledge since then, though. I could explain the
reasons for the hostility to some extent, but it's a rather long story,
and I'm not even sure if it's very convincing. Personally, I'm inclined to
think it's just sheer idiocy, but there's got to be some reason for it; if
you know the basics of Finnish 19th-20th century history, there are some
reasons to be found there.
One reason, also, is that Finland has a rather silly policy of scattering the
refugee centers all around the country; in big cities people are generally
more tolerant, and that would make the culture shock much easier to cope with
for the refugees. Rednecks are xenophobics in just about every country.
You can, however, find examples of such hostility in Sweden as well. In fact,
I've been quite surprised at the recent rise of such examples; a Mosque was
just burnt down in Trollh{ttan, there are annual nazi-riots in the Charles
XII day, there was a wave of firebombings of refugee centers some time ago,
etc. Still, opinion polls show that the majority opinion in Sweden is still
in favour of a liberal immigrant policy, where as in Finland, opinion polls
show that attitudes are getting more and more hostile due to the economic
depression.
> Despite (or rather due to) the
> fact that Finland accepted very few refugees. The second point
> I have heard is that police in Helsinki was said to be quite
> active in checking documents of foreign-looking people (esp
> black people) in Helsinki, supposedly to catch illegal immigrants.
> The claimed problem was that if you were black, your chances of being
> caught and checked out by the police without any apparent reason
> were relatively high.
It's probably true, E.Holman has in this newsgroup reported similar obser-
vations and I have no reason to doubt. However, growing a long hair and
wearing eccentric clothes would probably cause the same result.
>* What is the actual reason that most of the refugees arriving to
> Finland soon continue towards Sweden? As I understand it, Finland
> has signed a treaty promising refuge to people who can demonstrate
> that their lives are in danger, etc etc, just like Sweden. Is it that
> the criteria are much stricter or that the refugees just prefer
> Sweden, for one or another reason? If they do indeed prefer Sweden,
> then why?
Well, I'm sure that Sweden does have a better reputation internationally,
especially as a country that has a liberal immigrant policy. I haven't heard
that large numbers of immigrants coming to Finland would continue to Sweden
right away; I guess it's possible, but it's also my understanding that there's
a treaty according to which if a refugee has been rejected in Finland
already, and s/he continues to Sweden (or vice versa), s/he can be rejected
in Sweden as well without any examinations.
Wasn't that the case with this Bosnian (?) family a month (or so) ago? To my
understanding, their application had been rejected in Sweden, and they conti-
nued to Finland, but were automatically rejected here too due to the Swedish
result. That caused a great fuss in the Finnish media, and the Finnish mini-
stry of interior was eventually pressured to cancel the decision.
> I remember that quite recently the russian minority if Finland started
> asking for greater rights of some kind; don't remember what exactly did
> they ask for. Anyway, how is the situation with the russian minority
> (I am asking since I am quite ignorant about it): how many are there,
> do they want to have any russian schools, are there any russian schools
> (perhaps there is one at the embassy; in that case, can ordinary russians
> use the school?), how is the policy towards existing or would-be russian
> schools or kindergartens?
There are originally some 20-30 000 people of Russian descent, I believe, and
in the recent years lots of Ingrians (people of Finnish descent from the St.
Petersburg area, but who mostly speak Russian these days) and Karelians have
arrived, don't know exactly how many. If I remember correctly, some organiza-
tion of Finnish Russians demanded that Russian should be given a status simi-
lar to that of Swedish; I could be wrong, but anyway, I seem to remember
that the demands were a bit unrealistic.
I don't know the situation in the whole country, but there's a Russian school
in Helsinki that has classes all the way from kindergarten to 'lukio' ("gym-
nasiet", high school?), and about a thousand students. My little sister
actually went to that school for some time, as my family has lived some time
in Russia and my parents wanted her to be able to preserve the language she
learnt there.
There's also a Russian home for the aged in Helsinki, and as the Greek
Orthodox church is the other state-church in Finland, church services in
Russian are readily available. There could be other kindergartens than that
of the Russian school, both in Helsinki and elsewhere (Tampere is very like-
ly), but I don't really know.
Regards,
Matti Linnanvuori
arrived, don't know exactly how many. If I remember correctly, some organiza-
tion of Finnish Russians demanded that Russian should be given a status simi-
lar to that of Swedish; I could be wrong, but anyway, I seem to remember
that the demands were a bit unrealistic.
I don't think they demanded a status similar to Swedish, but a minority
status with (more) Russian schools and kindergartens. Some Finns
reacted emotionally against such status. Even some Russians opposed
the idea. Some Russian-speakers, especially those with Finnish roots,
want their children to assimilate as soon as possible, and don't
send them to the Helsinki Finnish-Russian school. The school is
overcrowded so that all willing Russian immigrant children can't get
in. By the way, a Russian newspaper is being started in Helsinki.
Are the Gypsies recognized as an official minority, or do they receive
the same rights as immigrants? Like mother tongue (not home
language...) education. The Sami language is official in some parts of
Finland, but is Gypsy? Are there Gypsy language official forms, like
there are Sami ones?
--
Matti Linnanvuori
vad...@vms.huji.ac.il
total mutual misunderstanding.
I wrote , commenting the "Jewish rail-station boss" story:
>> Bullshit. I don't give a dime of trust to this fake.
Ain immendiately got awaken:
> Oh yes, there seems to be some danger encoded... Evidently, there will follow
> severe arguments against something I have expressed. Let' read on ...
My argument against the episode of dark-haired (or dark-skinned?) Estonian
pretending to be a Jew in Russia:
>> If you ever visited Israel, or any sinagogue in Baltics, Byelorussia or Ukrain,
>> you would mention that proportion of dark-haired Ashkenazic
>> Jews isn't higher than that of any other ethnicity.
>> That you identify as a Jew only a hook-nosed and dark-haired dark-eyed one in
>> the crowd just says that you miss 80% of Jews in the crowd.
>> The story of mixing up however dark-haired Estonian with a Jew by a Jew in
>> post- War Soviet Union sounds like a guy from Wisconsin cattle farm taking
>> Uzbek with TOEFLE score 210 for another Wisconsin cattle-breeder.
>> Or me, knowing in Finnish "yo malauta" and "kaiki loopa" being taken for Finn
>> in Helsinki (I'm grey - haired and blue-eyed).
And Ain argues me:
> I wonder! I cannot read here anything opposing my statements.
{ay attention , pal - I'm not opposing your deep phylosofical speculations. I
just say you are liing and the story never could have place.
>Perhaps you
> are quite right but it would say nothing about the well-known existing
> Jewish solidarity (that I appreciate btw)
I'm not arguing against well-known Jewish solidarity. Though Central European
appreciation of it is somehow exaggerated.
>. One should not pay too much
> attention to the example that worked, no doubt. It was not misinterpreted
> despite your statements, why should it? The world is full of little and
> big babies and no nation is missing them, even if the nation is our
> own beloved one.
Ain, to your info: asking you not to take US for babies, I meant myself
individually and other netters possessing grown-up minds INDIVIDUALLY.
As any civilized person I avoid identifiing myself with any big group of
population and showing my point of view as a point of view of ethnical group or
nation. Though such examples of tribal thinking can easily be found in the net:
Serdar, speaking about "Armenian point of view", Jarmo, Observer and yourself
using endlessly "Estonian point of view" and "Finnish point of view" as
arguments in the discussion. With big regret I mentioned that in couple of
recent postings Eugene Holman, whom I appreciate as intelligent and carefull
participant in discussions, started using the same method.
The are no "Jewish" , "German" , "black" or "Russian" truths. Either you
approach the issue honestly, or you put ethnical (or class) attribution in the
corner of interest formulation.
Then you start telling fake stories to illustrate your thesis. Which is fake.
> Regards,
> Ain
>
--
With red-brown Zionist conspiracy regards,
Vadim N. Savvate'ev
Antti A Lahelma
>Are the Gypsies recognized as an official minority, or do they receive
>the same rights as immigrants? Like mother tongue (not home
>language...) education. The Sami language is official in some parts of
>Finland, but is Gypsy? Are there Gypsy language official forms, like
>there are Sami ones?
I don't think so; although there's a Gypsy minority, the Gypsy language is
to my knowledge as good as dead. The minority has some sort of a recognized
status, I believe, but I doubt the language has. Can't quote any facts now,
though.
Kirilov of Suicide
You like many equate communism with fascism--because in theory you
are either anti-revolutionary or a pacifist. The two terms are
one and the same. And you say that you have been arguing "for
some time on this newsgroup" that fascism and communism are
two sides of the same coin.
Fascism and capitalism are two sides of the same coin, comrade.
Italy and Germany became fascist only because of capitalist
economic crises. Fascism is a mass middle class, or petty
bourgeois movement whose purpose is to combat a workers
movement. This is why fascists hate--HATE HATE HATE
communists--and this is why communists were the only serious
threat to HItler. Why do you think that Hitler threw the
communists in torture chambers and camps first--because he had
to before he could start his Jewish massacres.
And meanwhile, comrade, what was the rest of the capitalist world
busy doing. Well, the U.S. which knew about the concentration camps
in Germany and with a simple bomb strike could have destroyed the
railroads--refused to protect oil investments. Teh imperialist world
was busy fighting for colonies in NOrth Africa and negotiating with
the Arab oil lords---and this is not taught in history books.
What's taught is that communism and fascism are totalitarian and that
capitalism is freedom.
go on on comrade--if it makes you feel so good--believe these lies and
think like a sponge. to you a war is a war and all dictatorships are
the same. To a dialectical thinker, who scientifically analyses the
forces at work, fascism and communism are night and day. ONe uholds
capitalism and the other destorys it.
Yet my biggest problem with your article is that you call the russians
stupid. And what are you--for not understanding the basic principles
that differentiate ruling class fascism from communism.
Do you even know what life was like the year after the bolshevik
revolution--that this was the most advanced form of democracy the world
ever saw--and the capitalist world destroyed--??? of course not.
because you read the history books and don't go beyond--because you are a peon
for the bourgeoisie.
What pristine servility, what extraordinary bellycrawling before the capitalist
exploiters you portray. And in the meanwhile your brain rots--for
as things change you remain the same.
zhirinovsky is no fascist and I would venture to bet that if conditions
were right you would prove yourself a better fascist than he--for at
least Zhirinovsky has his own view of things and has not been brainwashed
by the monolithic cliche americanized capitalist world--like you.
Warm greetings comrade--till the revolution!!
Kirilov
Yury M. Mukharsky
Kirilov of Suicide <sgma...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
Many smart things:
One comment: the guy seems to be pretty confident in restoration
of communism in the former USSR. And earn his points fast.
Or is his Russian name a fake and he really think so? Maybe.
Yury
VAINBERG VLADISLAV
Kirilov of Suicide <sgma...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
--
Vlad the Impaler of computer * "And, in the end, like my plastic
systems. If you got a virus * surgeon always said, 'if you gotta
tell me, so that I will wear * go, go with a smile'"
Kirilov of Suicide
it would make an excellent stand up act for a comedian. It is not my
lot to swat flies. There's no way I would waste my time trying to
convince you of the evils of capitalism. There are many who think
as you do and I have grow to realize that convincing you guys is
an impossible feat. So why did I bother writing if the purpose was
not to convince?
First--yes I am very serious about democracy in the first year of the
bolshevik revolution---if you were willing to read on the subject Victor
Serge's "Year ONe of the Russian REvolution" as well as the first four
volumes of E.H. Carr's 'HIstory of the Russian Revolution" as well as
Trotsky's history--and there are other accounts: John Reed, "10 Days
that Shook the World."--the list goes on and on of very credible sources
documenting the freedom that the revolution brought the workers and peasants-
how they now had access to higher culture, collectively ran factories with
little bureaucracy--but her I go again--trying to convince...
Second--comrade--I don't think the russians would find something like this
very funny--since they seem to be in a rather anti-capitalist mood.
Wouldn't be surprisd if a revolution broke out there. Yet as western
imperialists we automatically think that Russia should privatize everything.
I was just there and everyone from babushka na ulitse to devochka v tserkove
was not too keen on privatization and the prospect that people will be
out of work.
So when you really think about it there's nothing comical about this--if
anything is comical it's that there an entire country (perhaps two if
we count Canada) who thinks that Russians need and want capitalism and can't
beyond their own profit seeking bliders. Poor fools---may their
ignorance bring them bliss.
Kirilov
Michael Kagalenko
>In article <1993Dec18....@midway.uchicago.edu>,
>Kirilov of Suicide <sgma...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>One thing I am not sure about... Mr. Kirilov, WAS THE STUFF ABOVE A BIG JOKE or are you indeed serious. Please state that explicitly, because I found your article to be a excellent story for a stand-up comedian.
I'm amazed nobody who replied to this "Kirilllov of sucide" guy realize
that he is not Russian, nor his name is Kirillov. He's just living
reminder of results of reading too much Dostoevskij on empty stomach.
But I disappointed at scs audience, who seem unable to get simpliest
literature allusions.
Sincerely,
Michael
Kirilov of Suicide
not proud.
Yes--your absolutely right--what a wonderful realization you've come to--
reading Dostoevskii is the much better on an empty stomach.
YOur messge brings me much joy as most people have forgotten "The POssessed" because it is considered Dost.'s worst book.
Greetings comrade
stephen
Michael Kagalenko
>Yes--your absolutely right--what a wonderful realization you've come to--
>reading Dostoevskii is the much better on an empty stomach.
Comrade, it might be fun, but it can be detrimental for one's mental health.
Be careful, comrade.
>YOur messge brings me much joy as most people have forgotten "The POssessed"
> because it is considered Dost.'s worst book.
By whom it is considered the worst book of Dostoevskij ? This is
something new to me.
>Greetings comrade
Similarily,
Michael
dmitry pruss
>I'm 100% American and
>not proud.
Woops... that would make an excellent bumper sticker.
D
Kirilov of Suicide
the idea!
Kirilov of Suicide
Kirilov of Suicide
nothing but a cheep thriller. Most introductions to american editions
have this sentiment.
Comrade---your words of caution are taken seriously--for there is an
unexpliquable puissance dans les oeuvres of Dostoevsky that causes one
to go off on wild tirades in French.
Actually Kirilov is my god---and its too bad that the book was written because
now his original idea of suicide is no longer original--but he saved us
anyway--may his samovar continue to boil tea that sustained our
suicidal profit.
pishite tovarishch
kirilov
Yury M. Mukharsky
Kirilov of Suicide <sgma...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>bolshevik revolution---if you were willing to read on the subject Victor
>Serge's "Year ONe of the Russian REvolution" as well as the first four
>volumes of E.H. Carr's 'HIstory of the Russian Revolution" as well as
>Trotsky's history--and there are other accounts: John Reed, "10 Days
>that Shook the World."--the list goes on and on of very credible sources
I am not familiar with first two guys, but third and forth are credible sources
indeed. Can anybody recommend something about third Reich to comprad
Kirillov. Unfortunately Gebbels did not survive to write the memories,
but there must be someone equaly talented.
Yury
VAINBERG VLADISLAV
>dmitry pruss (pr...@helix.nih.gov) wrote:
>> In article <2ei5f5$p...@controversy.math.lsa.umich.edu> edp@south.
>> psc.lsa.umich.edu (Eduard Ponarin) writes:
>
>> >of ethnic discrimination is clear from the following fact. When
>> >things started to get real bad in Abkhazia, the population of a
>> >few Estonian villages there were evacuated to Estonia. All of
>> >them were recognized as Estonian citizens. Now, the ancestors of
>> >those people migrated to Abkhazia in 1890s-1900s. They were never
>> >citizens of Republic of Estonia. Many of them do not speak
>> >Estonian and some of them even have Georgian last names. But
>> >there is Estonian blood in their veins.
>
>I know that it is a bit dangerous to touch Jews but still...
>I have a friend of mine, a dark Estonian. Once, about 30 years ago,
>no tickets left to the train to Tallinn. Fortunately one guy remembered
>that the chief of the station is a Jew. The boys got the idea to send
>the darkest one to the chief. So the dark man applied to the Jew and said,
>trying to pronounce 'r` stronger: "My name is Rabinovich and we want
>to go to Tallinn". The tickets were given at once. This was well-known
>Jewish nationalism. It was laughed and admired but never disparaged.
>
>Regards,
>Ain
>
Oh, come on, now, Ain! This is not alt.tasteless.jokes! Is this who you really are? That is an OLD JOKE, and there are thousands like that told all over the world by ant-Semites of all kinds! Do I have to tell you another story about an Estonian Airport? (Tallin airport, that is). About Estonians being, let's just say not 'too friendly' with tourists from other parts of former USSR with respect topeople of their own nationality? I do not think we have to come as low as that!
Zhenya Sorokin
>Who said I was pretending to be Russian, Michael. I'm 100% American and
>not proud.
No way. Spelling and grammar errors are not typical for a born american
speaker. Usage of russian words is not typical for a russian, either.
Latin America, perhaps?
>Yes--your absolutely right--what a wonderful realization you've come to--
>reading Dostoevskii is the much better on an empty stomach.
>YOur messge brings me much joy as most people have forgotten "The POssessed" because it is considered Dost.'s worst book.
>Greetings comrade
>stephen
--
Zhenya Sorokin
Vienna, Austria
Andrew Lobanov
>With best regards
>Tapani Hietaniemi
>Helsinki, "near abroad"
|___perhaps in your dreams...
You must be correct. The term "near abroad" is neither created
by Russian nationalists, nor is it pointing at Finland. It was
invented - to the best of my knowledge - to indicate a distinc-
tion made in the Russian foreign policy between the xSU coun-
tries and other countries. Finland does not qualify, thereby.
On the contrary, for the guys you're talking about, simply
"Rossiiskaya Imperiya" would do...
Andrew.
Kirilov of Suicide
spelling and grammer errors are not typical for an american born speaker.
Usage of russian words is not typical for a rusian, either.
Latin America, perhaps?
What she really means is this:
Russian words are only spoken by American born people who have no
concept of grammar or spelling.
Kirilov
Ain Ainsaar
> I see, in our discussin of the "ethnical solidarity" we came to the point of
> total mutual misunderstanding.
> And Ain argues me:
> > I wonder! I cannot read here anything opposing my statements.
> {ay attention , pal - I'm not opposing your deep phylosofical speculations. I
> just say you are liing and the story never could have place.
No, not lying. But I admit that there is space for different interpretations.
Actually, I could stop telling the story where the idea was started to
carry out. That would be enough to illustrate the common knowledge.
> >Perhaps you
> > are quite right but it would say nothing about the well-known existing
> > Jewish solidarity (that I appreciate btw)
> I'm not arguing against well-known Jewish solidarity. Though Central European
> appreciation of it is somehow exaggerated.
> The are no "Jewish" , "German" , "black" or "Russian" truths. Either you
> approach the issue honestly, or you put ethnical (or class) attribution in the
> corner of interest formulation.
Here we badly need a definition of "truth" , perhaps to start another
discussion. You can define " truth" strictly scientifically in such a
way that there really is only one overwhelming truth(s) in the world.
But if you admit that there are different truths for a wolf, frog,
pig, dandelion, and man, then there are different truths for different
groups of people too (rich, poor, carpenters, prostitutes etc.) as well
as for different nations. So, this is a matter of definition.
Just a source of misunderstandings.
My "truth" in this thread was common to all nations:
Let all nations keep their identities and let us appreciate these mutually.
Regards,
Ain
Tapani Hietaniemi
: In article n...@karhu.Helsinki.FI, thie...@karhu.Helsinki.FI
: >With best regards
: >Tapani Hietaniemi
: >Helsinki, "near abroad"
: ^
: |___perhaps in your dreams...
: You must be correct. The term "near abroad" is neither created
: by Russian nationalists, nor is it pointing at Finland. It was
: invented - to the best of my knowledge - to indicate a distinc-
: tion made in the Russian foreign policy between the xSU coun-
: tries and other countries. Finland does not qualify, thereby.
This is exactly the reason I write "near abroad" in quotation marks.
But Russia should not be given any right to military control over
other sovereign states like Armenia or Baltics. There would be only a
small step from Riga or Yerevan to Helsinki or Ulan-Bator. It is a
question of principle. Moreover, geographically speaking, Helsinki is very
near abroad.
With best regards
Tapani Hietaniemi
In Helsinki by the Gulf of Finland
..* Vyborg/Viipuri
Kotka *.........
.................* St.Peterburg/Piter
Helsinki/ ...................
Helsingfors *...................
.........................* Narva
...........* Tallinn/Tallin
...........
dmitry pruss
(about the truth and the wolfs and the truth of the foxes, which will never
be the same, Re: ethnicity-based approach to about everything)
i wonder, how widely is your approach shared by your compatriots? do you
have a feeling?
(this time Ain reveals one universal component of his truth)
>Let all nations keep their identities and let us appreciate these mutually.
>
I don't think you talk of *nations* as of the states with their mosaic
of different cultures and of different heritage.
You must have used the word *nation* in his common post-Soviet meaning
*ethnic group*, i.e. the Setu shall remain the Setu, the Swedes shall
remain the Swedes and the Jews shall ever be the Jews. I tell you honestly,
comrade: I fuck these jokes. Don't tell me whom I shall be, and I won't
tell you where's your place either.
Let us care of our identity ourselves. I know that you despice those who
doesn't stick to the great-grandfathers' tradition in full, who leave their
ancestral domains and who marry Ausslender. That's your provincial view
from a tinny country of the former serfs who never moved but ever dreamed
of living in a purely-their society. Live with it, if you want. Just
don't pretend that your style of reasoning is good for any other place in
the world.
>
D
Henry Mednikoff
As I could notice, the trend worldwide is ethnic, religious and racial separation.
It is not late 60's and 70's.
Therefore, Ain is a "trendy" guy.
Henry.
vad...@vms.huji.ac.il
> Andrew Lobanov (alob...@aoc.nrao.edu) wrote:
> : In article n...@karhu.Helsinki.FI, thie...@karhu.Helsinki.FI
> (Tapani Hietaniemi) writes:
> : >With best regards
> : >Tapani Hietaniemi
> : >Helsinki, "near abroad"
> : ^
> : |___perhaps in your dreams...
>
> : You must be correct. The term "near abroad" is neither created
> : by Russian nationalists, nor is it pointing at Finland. It was
> : invented - to the best of my knowledge - to indicate a distinc-
> : tion made in the Russian foreign policy between the xSU coun-
> : tries and other countries. Finland does not qualify, thereby.
>
>
> This is exactly the reason I write "near abroad" in quotation marks.
> But Russia should not be given any right to military control over
> other sovereign states like Armenia or Baltics. There would be only a
> small step from Riga or Yerevan to Helsinki or Ulan-Bator. It is a
> question of principle. Moreover, geographically speaking, Helsinki is very
> near abroad.
Completely agree. More than that: I think Estonia shouldn't be given this right
either. I claim opening the signature list to be presented to the Council of
Europe and Organization of Arab Unity. The list will urge this organization to
issue a declaration that Estonia wouldn't be given any right for military
control over other souverain states like Burkina Fasso or Andorra.
Decolomization is long and uneasy process and the best for Estonian
colonizers would be to understand that the time of empires has gone forever.
Best wishes,
Vadim
Eduard Ponarin
>Comrade Sorokin in a recent article writes this profound metaphysical poem:
>
>spelling and grammer errors are not typical for an american born speaker.
>Usage of russian words is not typical for a rusian, either.
>Latin America, perhaps?
Let me venture a guess regarding Kirilov's ethnic origin. Because
he spells Kirilov with one "L" instead of two, I suspect he is
Bulgarian.
Ed Ponarin,
e...@umich.edu
THESE OPINIONS MAY NOT COINCIDE WITH THOSE OF MY EMPLOYER
Markku T. Keinanen
> This is exactly the reason I write "near abroad" in quotation marks.
> But Russia should not be given any right to military control over
> other sovereign states like Armenia or Baltics. There would be only a
> small step from Riga or Yerevan to Helsinki or Ulan-Bator. It is a
> question of principle. Moreover, geographically speaking, Helsinki is very
> near abroad.
I agree. We should never forget that one of the most influental
politicians in Russia has already expressed his will to destroy us.
Markku
--
NATO - Suomen turvallisuuden ainoa tae!
HATO - Odna garantija bezopasnosti Finljandii!
dmitry pruss
>In article <2f40he$s...@karhu.Helsinki.FI>, thie...@karhu.Helsinki.FI (Tapani Hietaniemi) writes:
>>
>> This is exactly the reason I write "near abroad" in quotation marks.
Zhuk ty, Stepa. Za chto tebq lyublyu - kisses appended.
>> But Russia should not be given any right to military control over
>> other sovereign states like Armenia or Baltics. There would be only a
>> small step from Riga or Yerevan to Helsinki or Ulan-Bator. It is a
>> question of principle.
>
>Completely agree. More than that: I think Estonia shouldn't be given this right
>either. I claim opening the signature list to be presented to the Council of
>Europe and Organization of Arab Unity. The list will urge this organization to
>issue a declaration that Estonia wouldn't be given any right for military
>control over other souverain states like Burkina Fasso or Andorra.
>
> Decolomization is long and uneasy process and the best for Estonian
>colonizers would be to understand that the time of empires has gone forever.
>
>Best wishes,
>Vadim
They're smart bastards in the Baltics: when they send the troops abroad,
they instruct them to speak English, so that it wouldn't look as a Baltic
invasion. So, Vadim, I bet they'll have you done.
Time to teach the Russian forces Turkish - hey, Wol'fich, where are you?
D
Kirilov of Suicide
>
>Let me venture a guess regarding Kirilov's ethnic origin. Because
>he spells Kirilov with one "L" instead of two, I suspect he is
>Bulgarian.
>
>
>Ed Ponarin,
Ed--Camus spelled Kirilov with one "L" and he was a frenchie!
kirillov
Red Herring
>
>Fascism and capitalism are two sides of the same coin, comrade.
>Italy and Germany became fascist only because of capitalist
>economic crises.
Ditto for Russia becoming communist.
>Fascism is a mass middle class, or petty
>bourgeois movement whose purpose is to combat a workers
>movement. This is why fascists hate--HATE HATE HATE
>communists--and this is why communists were the only serious
>threat to HItler.
"A petty bourgeois or a trade-unionist will never
make a National Socialist, but a Communist always
will. There are more things that unite us than divide
us, - above all, a true revolutionary spirit."
Adolph Hitler (from a letter published in WSJ
several years ago).
NSDAP was a worker's party, formed by a merger
of two smaller leftist parties, that remained
true to its worker's heritage (i.e. full employment
was not exactly a kapitalist idea). Btw, in NSDAP,
"A" stands for "Arbeiten" or "Worker's".
The commies and the nazis were drawing their support
from the same electoral base - the "working class"
- a "red" vote gained was a "brown" vote lost and vice
versa - so, naturally, they hated each other's guts.
When the nazis came to power, most commies quickly,
and willingly, changed their party affiliation while
some - the true believers - were sent to concentration
camps.
Incidentally, Zhirinovski's LDP is too comprised of
former communists. While LDP's ranks are growing,
the Communist party membership is shrinking,
as Russia's commies are discovering firsthand that
there isn't a dime worth of difference between the
two parties.
Can you say "Heil", Comrade Kirillov? I knew you could...
/RH
dmitry pruss
>
> Incidentally, Zhirinovski's LDP is too comprised of
> former communists. While LDP's ranks are growing,
> the Communist party membership is shrinking,
Just for my (and Herrmann's :-) curiosity, could you quote you
source of data about the 'LDP' ?
It didn't seem to me that it has *any* *ranks*, at least it didn't succeed
pushing its individual members into the parliament - rather, it enjoyed a
lump-sum vote for the party as a whole. So it either *doesn't* have members
or those members are so inattractive/boring/shy that hardly anyone would
be interested in them.
The only two guys which surfaced in the media thus far - Zhir. and Kashp. -
haven't been Communists (at least for a long time before they grabbed the
vote). They could have been anyone else - scumsters, well-connected
preachers, even Judeo-Masonic conspirators (try to disprove :), but *not*
the Red Proletarians. .
Red Herring
>In article <CICru...@apollo.hp.com> goyk...@apollo.hp.com (Red Herring) writes:
>>
>> Incidentally, Zhirinovski's LDP is too comprised of
>> former communists. While LDP's ranks are growing,
>> the Communist party membership is shrinking,
>
>Just for my (and Herrmann's :-) curiosity, could you quote you
>source of data about the 'LDP' ?
The election results.
>It didn't seem to me that it has *any* *ranks*, at least it didn't succeed
>pushing its individual members into the parliament - rather, it enjoyed a
>lump-sum vote for the party as a whole.
At the present time, "ranks" does necessarily not mean
"card-carrying members", but that will undoubtely change.
>So it either *doesn't* have members
>or those members are so inattractive/boring/shy that hardly anyone would
>be interested in them.
If so, how come they got the most votes?
>The only two guys which surfaced in the media thus far - Zhir. and Kashp. -
>haven't been Communists (at least for a long time before they grabbed the
>vote). They could have been anyone else - scumsters, well-connected
>preachers, even Judeo-Masonic conspirators (try to disprove :), but *not*
>the Red Proletarians.
Zhirinovski came through the ranks of Kazakhstan's Lenin Yugend
and once was arrested in Turkey with some communist propaganda
literature - a typical KGB career story. He may have gotten
only 7% of the vote running against Yeltsin, but 80% of a Moscow
electoral district which is home to a huge KGB dormitory complex
voted for him. That was two years ago... Apparently, the KGB men
knew something about Vladimir Volfovich the rest of the country did
not. Needless to say, he was a Party member too.