The Mother of All Flame Wars, Part 1 of 4 (Scholarly References On Sexual Orientation & Child Molestation)

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Clayton Cramer

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Oct 5, 1992, 11:59:26 AM10/5/92
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Introduction
------------

This posting is an attempt to reach closure on a number of issues raised
over the last year or so, related to issues of child molestation,
homosexuality, and the legitimacy of discrimination based on sexual
orientation. The homosexual community has engaged in the most virulent
ad hominem attacks that I have ever seen. There has been repeated
claims made by the homosexual community about the nature of child
molestation and child molesters. This posting contains the results of
studying three recent scholarly works on the subject of child sexual
abuse. While not all of the material contained herein is relevant to
the issue of homosexuality, it is all relevant to the issue of child
sexual abuse. Even if you don't give a damn about the battle about
homosexuality, much of this information should be of interest and
concern to anyone with children.

Sources Used
------------

A word about the sources. There are a number of books on the subject
of child sexual abuse and its aftermath available. I relied primarily
on very recent books (less than five years old) both because they
would have access to more recent data in this rapidly changing field,
and to see if any of the wild claims made about sexual orientation
and child molestation by the homosexual community had been accepted
by the psychiatric community. Clearly, I don't have time to engage
in an exhaustive survey of the field, so I picked those books available
at the Sonoma State University library that were:

1. Scholarly (footnoted & written by academics or professionals in the
fields of mental or public health);

2. Contained information about offenders and the effects on victims;

3. Addressed the issues of sexual orientation and child molestation.

The works used include:

1. Christopher Bagley and Kathleen King, _Child Sexual Abuse: The
Search for Healing_, (New York, Tavistock/Routledge: 1990). Bagley
is Professor of Social Work at the University of Calgary. Kathleen
King is a social worker (MSW) in Nova Scotia.

2. Kathleen Coulborn Faller, _Child Sexual Abuse: An Interdiscplinary
Manual for Diagnosis, Case Management, and Treatment_, (New York,
Columbia University Press: 1988).

3. Diana Sullivan Everstine and Louis Everstine, _Sexual Trauma in
Children and Adolescents: Dynamics and Treatment_, (New York,
Brunner/Mazel Publishers: 1989). The Everstines are professionals
engaged in mental health treatment in Santa Clara County. The title
page indicates a total of two Ph.D.s between them, and Louis Everstine
holds the M.P.H. (Master's of Public Health).

In addition, to answer a number of general questions about human
sexuality, I also consulted:

4. William H. Masters, Virginia E. Johnson, and Robert C. Kolodny,
_Human Sexuality_, 4th ed., (New York, HarperCollins Publishers Inc.:
1992). Masters & Johnson, of course, are too well-known in the field
of sex research to require introduction.

5. Janet Shibley Hyde, _Understanding Human Sexuality_, 4th ed.,
(New York, McGraw-Hill Co.: 1990). Hyde is Professor of Psychology
at the University of Wisconsin at Madison. The book is about as
pro-homosexual as I've ever seen.

The Ground Rules
----------------

I will not respond to any followup that contains ad hominem attacks,
even if there are substantive criticisms contained therein, simply
because it's too draining, and because someone who lacks the self-
control to respond to facts without engaging in character assassination
isn't worth my time; it's a sign that someone is so irrational as
to be a waste of time to argue with.

As you read the material in this posting, I think it will become
increasingly obvious while homosexuals become so livid at my postings:

This initial observation phase may be further complicated by the
client's defenses, in that the sexual assault may have been
repressed and, consequently, may be inaccessible to the client at
present...

Apart from this obvious repression, a client may also have
diminished the intensity of the event by some form of the
disociative process. As one woman so clearly summarized after
describing years of brutal physical and sexual abuse by her
father, "You know, being beaten up isn't that bad; after the
first hit you don't feel it anymore." It is worth reflecting
that these kinds of defenses may have been the person's
protectors and friends -- in many instances a victim's only
solace. When casting off these defenses and telling someone
about the trauma, the person may feel that the only shield
has been stripped away and that he or she is without anesthesia
against the pain of the original assault. One client described
a previous therapist, the leader of a woman's group who
aggressively confronted the client's defenses before the group,
in these words: "That therapist attacked me! She tried to take
away my way of coping. I know I'm hard. I have a shell and
there's some stuff I won't look at. But I protect myself the
best way I know how. Who is she to attack me... trying to take
away all I have that protects me from me?... Is she going to
protect me? No!"[Everstine & Everstine, 155-156]

Based on the evidence to be presented in this posting, I think you
will understand the level of vitriol directed at myself, and
a few other posters, for asking hard questions about this subject
of sexual orientation and child molestation.

How Widespread Is Childhood Sexual Abuse?
-----------------------------------------

For starters, how many victims are there? A variety of surveys have
been conducted, using a variety of methodologies, none of which can
be considered perfect. Many of the studies were conducted among
college students, and so tend to leave out those victims of child
sexual abuse who fail to reach college because of their problems.
[Bagley & King, 69-70] (However, this does not mean that every
victim of child sexual abuse fails to make it into college. Faller
notes that some victims excel in school because it provides a
relatively safe environment.[Faller, 150] The range of the 11
studies summarized in Bagley & King are 12%-40% of females, and
3%-8.6% of males.[Bagley & King, 76] Faller quotes the same studies,
though in less detail.[Faller, 19] The Everstines use the figures
15%-45% of females and 3%-9% of males, but "believe that the currently
accepted percentages for males who have been molested will be
revised to 10% or 15% of the population when more accurate data
are forthcoming."[Everstine & Everstine, 2] Note that these
studies were conducted in Britain, Canada, and the United States,
with Bagley and King asserting that California is unusually high,
though it is unclear whether this is a methodological problem, or
reflects higher incidence in California.[Bagley and King, 69]

Repressed Memories: Things Are Probably Worse Than This

This implies that a sizeable chunk of our population has been
victimized -- and both Bagley/King and Faller agree that:

[T]here is clinical evidence (Bagley, 1985) that some child
victims react to their abuse by repression, depersonalization,
or the development of an alternative personality (Fraser 1987).
These are unconscious devices which may protect the ego, but
they do mean that some victims of childhood abuse will not,
as adults, report that abuse because they simply cannot
recall it.[Bagley & King, 69]

Also, sometimes the victim will repress the sexual abuse.
This is more likely to happen when the sexual abuse occurred
sometime in the fairly distant past. The entire scenario
may be repressed or just parts of it.[Faller, 176]

Why is this relevant? At various times in the last year, I have
pointed to the large number of admissions of child sexual abuse
received by homosexuals posting in soc.motss, and suggested that
there might be some connection between the child sexual abuse and
their current sexual orientation -- and the ready response from
other homosexuals was, "I wasn't molested, so there can't be
a connection."

A few assaults took place before age 6, but it is important
to note that recall of very early assaults may be poor -- yet,
like other trauma occurring in the infant years, the effects
could be negative and long lasting.[Bagley & King, 71]

However, these memories may not be repressed forever, and in some
cases, emotional problems increase "when they contemplate parent-
hood, when they become parents, or when a child of theirs approaches
the same age that they were when sexually abused."[Everstine &
Everstine, 154] I find it very interesting that many of the
postings in soc.motss on the subject of homosexuals who tried to
live married heterosexual lives, indicate that the problems got
worse in their early 30s, or after having a child.

--
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer My opinions, all mine!
Lesson learned from Gov. Wilson's signing of AB 2601: if you don't get
your way, have a riot. Next time, Gov. Wilson will cower appropriately.

Gene W. Smith

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Oct 7, 1992, 2:51:27 PM10/7/92
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In article <12...@optilink.UUCP> cra...@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:

>1. Scholarly (footnoted & written by academics or professionals in the
>fields of mental or public health);

We shall see.

>1. Christopher Bagley and Kathleen King, _Child Sexual Abuse: The
>Search for Healing_, (New York, Tavistock/Routledge: 1990). Bagley
>is Professor of Social Work at the University of Calgary. Kathleen
>King is a social worker (MSW) in Nova Scotia.

MY mother got an MSW, and a clinical social work certificate. Her
undergraduate degree was psychology. She informs me that intellectual
standards were very low in her MSW program. Her thesis was a novel,
burt other peoples were such things as (no, I am *not* making this up!)
macrame. Professors of social work were in good measure bozos. I
suggest forgetting this one.

>2. Kathleen Coulborn Faller, _Child Sexual Abuse: An Interdiscplinary
>Manual for Diagnosis, Case Management, and Treatment_, (New York,
>Columbia University Press: 1988).

No professional degree indicated. Who knows?

>3. Diana Sullivan Everstine and Louis Everstine, _Sexual Trauma in
>Children and Adolescents: Dynamics and Treatment_, (New York,
>Brunner/Mazel Publishers: 1989). The Everstines are professionals
>engaged in mental health treatment in Santa Clara County. The title
>page indicates a total of two Ph.D.s between them, and Louis Everstine
>holds the M.P.H. (Master's of Public Health).

You should hear my mother on the topic of the mental heath bozos she
met in Santa Clara County. I don't know who these people are, but the
quotes made them sound like neo-Freudians. No evidence any of this is
science, unless you want to post some.

>The Ground Rules

>I will not respond to any followup that contains ad hominem attacks,
>even if there are substantive criticisms contained therein, simply
>because it's too draining, and because someone who lacks the self-
>control to respond to facts without engaging in character assassination
>isn't worth my time; it's a sign that someone is so irrational as
>to be a waste of time to argue with.

You are such a complete clueless lackwit you probably think this sentence
is an _ad hominem_ attack, and my postings less rational than the absolute
nonsense you have been posting.

>As you read the material in this posting, I think it will become
>increasingly obvious while homosexuals become so livid at my postings:

Probably the same reasons the Jews in Germany didn't much like Herr
Goebbels. If you gave a reasoned argument you might find the response
to be different.

> Also, sometimes the victim will repress the sexual abuse.
> This is more likely to happen when the sexual abuse occurred
> sometime in the fairly distant past. The entire scenario
> may be repressed or just parts of it.[Faller, 176]

>Why is this relevant? At various times in the last year, I have
>pointed to the large number of admissions of child sexual abuse
>received by homosexuals posting in soc.motss, and suggested that
>there might be some connection between the child sexual abuse and
>their current sexual orientation -- and the ready response from
>other homosexuals was, "I wasn't molested, so there can't be
>a connection."

So if you don't have any evidence, you propose to make some up?
I suggest you go out and find a study on the incidence of child
sexual abuse in homosexuals as compared to heterosexuals. This should
be by someone who knows how to conduct such a study, by the way.
Otherwise, you don't have evidence.
--
Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/IWR/Ruprecht-Karls University
gsm...@kalliope.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de

Clayton Cramer

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Oct 8, 1992, 12:56:31 PM10/8/92
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In article <1992Oct7.1...@sun0.urz.uni-heidelberg.de>, gsm...@lauren.uucp (Gene W. Smith) writes:
> In article <12...@optilink.UUCP> cra...@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
# #The Ground Rules
#
# #I will not respond to any followup that contains ad hominem attacks,
# #even if there are substantive criticisms contained therein, simply
# #because it's too draining, and because someone who lacks the self-
# #control to respond to facts without engaging in character assassination
# #isn't worth my time; it's a sign that someone is so irrational as
# #to be a waste of time to argue with.
#
# You are such a complete clueless lackwit you probably think this sentence
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
# is an _ad hominem_ attack, and my postings less rational than the absolute
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
# nonsense you have been posting.
# --
# Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/IWR/Ruprecht-Karls University
# gsm...@kalliope.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de

These postings by Gene Ward Smith, and the ones by Paul Bartholomew,
are such wonderful examples of what I was talking about.

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