Nuking Mecca. What do Muslims think?
LeftBank
How would you react? Would it be considered the will of Allah? Would your
religion die? Would you feel liberated?
Before you answer, just take a deep breath as the anger disappears from your
consciousness and imagine a world without Mecca. You wake up one morning,
turn on the radio, (if you have one) and hear that Mecca has been
transformed into a large pane of glass.
How would you really feel?
PaulAbeles
"LeftBank" <Left...@spamme.com> wrote in message
news:m7j5c.10$ZR5.370@psinet-eu-nl...
> I am interested in answers from muslims.
I'm in favour of it.
TonyaK9
"PaulAbeles" <sir...@buckhouse.windsor.uk> wrote in message
news:3qj5c.104718$Wa.9...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Wow!
Not only is abeles a rabbi - now he's also a Muslim!
Senility is the key word...
TK9
PaulAbeles
"TonyaK9" <Ton...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:8zk5c.22393$%06....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Abraham was a Muslim.
Norma
You know very well that all the Abrahamic relitions claim Abraham as the
father-figure and the person who was tested most of all by Hashem. So stop
prattling one-liners and get with the program of the fact of the three
religions who claim Abraham as member. Norma
>
>
PaulAbeles
"Norma" <norm...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:105boel...@corp.supernews.com...
Abram was a myth. And if he wasn't he was the first recorded pimp.
Bereshit 12
TonyaK9
Did Muslims exist even BEFORE the advent of Islam, Reb abeles???
Do enlighten the rest of us, please...
;)))
TK9
AKurd96
What good will you get from blowing up Mecca? I mean just beacuse you
might have anger ona Muslim or something what will blowingup Mecca do
for you, yeh it might make you happy for a minute, but hey all muslims
are not one person ok, so dont judge me with some other idiot calls
himself a mulim ok and i doon,t blive in criticizing religions i love
all religions by god and i respect all the major 3 religions just as
my ownand i respect teh prophets teh same way, so teher is no need to
put your anger on billion os peoplea because of one idiot or a group.
Ihonestly am against all types of war, bombings, suicide crap, and all
that terrorism stuff. Whty cant peopel just sit ontheir taiol and live
happy????? Terrosrist like hams al qaedaal islam and all other Hell
people. May god help you all
TonyaK9
"AKurd96" <Aku...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e90c6991.04031...@posting.google.com...
Yes.
May G-d help you all.
TK9
CooolBreeeze
COMMENT:
The Prophet of Allah s.a.w. told us 1425 years ago that Mecca would be
destroyed. That will be unfortunate. It will be more unfortunate for
the West and Israhell because if true then the rest of the prophecy is
that hell on earth is unleashed.
Don't feel big because of your machines and manufactures I am sure
there is a sense of control and power for you but there is none in
reality. All control and power rest solely with God.
TonyaK9
"CooolBreeeze" <fortk...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:57e3df21.04031...@posting.google.com...
The last sentence of yours is true.
The rest is bull. But Muslims are known exactly for that (and for untamed
violence.) Nothing new...
TK9
Israel's Lightning
If the majority of Muslims around the world are good people and its only a
small minority that are ruthless, spineless, coward, murderers etc why then
do these good Muslim people, (who if I can believe you are in the
over-whelming majority) allow their neighbours, sons, daughters, aunts,
uncles, brothers, mothers, fathers, dogs etc to go around and blow up
children, old people, pregnant women, teen-ages, fathers, mothers (have I
missed out anyone who hasn't been murdered with a sickening frequency?) Why
do these same masses of good Muslims cheer and celebrate when infidels die
enmass by the hands of their brethren- THIS is my question?
To me it looks like either the religion of Islam promotes and breeds a blood
thirsty, Deity free, brain dead group of savages, or we are all seeing the
wrong thing. Furthermore... you are totally misunderstood and you are not
actually cheering or celebrating but are in fact crying with rage at your
own people who have brought shame and a universal and an enduring loathsome
upon all of the Islamic world.
"AKurd96" <Aku...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e90c6991.04031...@posting.google.com...
PaulAbeles
Fuck God, Allah and Yahweh.
Eugene Kent
"LeftBank" <Left...@spamme.com> wrote in message
news:m7j5c.10$ZR5.370@psinet-eu-nl...
TonyaK9
Adeles' FOR SALE advertisement:
"Honeymoon cottage, sleeps four"
Eugene Kent
Ab --father
ra --sun god
ham --group of people.
"Norma" <norm...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:105boel...@corp.supernews.com...
>
Eugene Kent
As the Kaba was the first temple dedicated to Abraham. Which carried their
heritage back to the beginning of time.
"Long before the Islamic era, the beginnings of Arab cartography lie in oral
traditions and diagrams sketched on skin and, bone or wood. The advance of
the Arabs under the banner of Islam during the seventh century meant that
itineraries and route maps were required for military campaigns: The
ascendancy of Islam both reinvigorated scholarship and required more
accurate assessments of time and space. Scholars such as al-Fazari, working
in the 770's, compiled astronomical tables based on the movements of the sun
and moon that were later expanded into lists of towns, complete with the
distances from one to the next and the approximate direction of the roads
connecting them.
As what is called today Saudi Arabia and being a arid country, and as Saudi
Arabia is only now being opened to scientific archeology research there will
soon be discoverd information that goes back thousands of years and put a
different understanding on world history.and movements of mankind.
The thousands of rock and cave paintings attest to that. And as more and
more information is compiled on these paintings will prove that mankind had
a writing system even before the Egyptian and Mesopotamian writings.
"TonyaK9" <Ton...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:Pwl5c.22519$%06.1...@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
TonyaK9
"Eugene Kent" <eugen...@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:40565afa$0$52154$a046...@nnrp.fuse.net...
How does that address abeles' assertion that there were Muslims BEFORE the
advent of Islam.
Are you telling us that Abraham was a follower of Mohammed BEFORE Mohammed
was born?
Or are you telling us that Muslims are not the followers of Mohammed?
Which is it, euginecunt?
TK9
PaulAbeles
Well as you well know I consider theists, dangerous and naive fools. however
Islam claims Abraham as a Muslim.
TonyaK9
Is that after you've f*&ked Allah or before the act?
TK9
Eugene Kent
bigotry. Which was created by mostly Eurasians and Hindi fanatics. It was
English and American policy aided and abetted by Jewish zionist organization
that started importing mostly east European Jews into the Palestine area and
brutally removing the Arab residents that created this present hatred. Just
because the Western countries have more sophisticated weaponry doesn't mean
that it will cowl whole groups of peoples. You should be more concerned
with this new phenomenal growth of digital warfare that came so suddenly on
line in Spain where over two hundred persons and over a thousand were
wounded by just dialing a cell phone. (And it is supected that digital
warfae had a part in the WTC disaster.) These kind's of latent bombs can be
planted and set off by cell phones months or years after being planted.
And what you see is Bush on prime time claiming that since he took office
not only is the world a safer place but under him the economy is growing.
"Israel's Lightning" <israelsl...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:4056117b$0$22516$5a62...@freenews.iinet.net.au...
PaulAbeles
Scared of saying "fucked" Allah?
bob young
AKurd96 wrote:
> people. May god help you all....
...he won't...there are no gods and this is the tradegy of Islam. The
belief in a non god is so strong it makes people kill themselves and to
take dozens of others with them.
Religious confrontations could well be the cause of humankind wiping
itself out. Wiped out for.... *NOTHING*
When we have all gone from this earth in our ingorance and stupidity
there will no longer be a need to wonder how large the universe is, or
where life came from, - my dog does not have the 'wondering' capability,
and, anyway, he couln't care less!
Bob
A Brit. in Hong Kong
I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not
understanding the world.
[Richard Dawkins]
bob young
Israel's Lightning wrote:
> I take your post at face value-
> If the majority of Muslims around the world are good people and its only a
> small minority that are ruthless, spineless, coward, murderers etc why then
> do these good Muslim people, (who if I can believe you are in the
> over-whelming majority) allow their neighbours, sons, daughters, aunts,
> uncles, brothers, mothers, fathers, dogs etc to go around and blow up
> children, old people, pregnant women, teen-ages, fathers, mothers (have I
> missed out anyone who hasn't been murdered with a sickening frequency?) Why
> do these same masses of good Muslims cheer and celebrate when infidels die
> enmass by the hands of their brethren- THIS is my question?
......the belief is so strong. Telling the authorities that your neighbour is
a terrorist may offend Allah and that is tantamount to not going to heaven.
.......both are myths of course, and this is the tradegy.
Bob
Hong Kong
norm...@charter.net
You might want to ask Izzie about all this. But remember that Abraham
was the father of Ishmael from whom Islam was started. The Muslims do
stake claim as the original Abrahamic religion, and rether than
converting to Islam, one "reverts" to it--a totallly different concept
altogether. Norma
I did study the relgion while in the Arab world, so know that to be a
truth to them.
>
> TK9
LeftBank
"CooolBreeeze" <fortk...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:57e3df21.04031...@posting.google.com...
> "LeftBank" <Left...@spamme.com> wrote
> > How would you really feel?
>
> COMMENT:
>
> The Prophet of Allah s.a.w. told us 1425 years ago that Mecca would be
> destroyed. That will be unfortunate. It will be more unfortunate for
> the West and Israhell because if true then the rest of the prophecy is
> that hell on earth is unleashed.
So in effect Allah expects Mecca to be destroyed. How would muslims react to
that?
Tilly
> How would you really feel?
Meccaless?
Tilly
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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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TonyaK9
<norm...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:9abc4e06.04031...@posting.google.com...
Professor,
Abeles' had asserted existence of a "Muslim" BEFORE the advent of Islam.
Since you have studied religion while in the Arab world - why don't YOU
indicate to all of us, illiterates around here, which of these two
possibilities of "Abraham being a Muslim" is considered correct:
- was Abraham a follower of Mohammed BEFORE Mohammed was born?
- is it not necessary to be a follower of Mohammed to be a Muslim?
Logic dictates that to be an either/or question, and I wonder how you,
Professor, get around this simple fact.
No room for fuzzy bubbling, Professor, sorry.
TK9
Norma
He is the father of Ishmael, who was born before Isaac. Ishmael is the
"father of Islam". Mohammed is considered the final prophet after Jesus.
You seem to think or assume that The Prophet was the found er of Islam, and
that is not the way the Islamic world sees it. If Abraham became the father
of the fathe of Islam first, then that is how that thinking is done.
>
> - was Abraham a follower of Mohammed BEFORE Mohammed was born?
> - is it not necessary to be a follower of Mohammed to be a Muslim?
One does not follow Mohammed to be Muslim, one follows Allah. You have the
Arab concept of Islam mixed up into you concept of Islam. The prophet is
not the god, in other words. One considers the prophets actions as correct
and to be emulated, but they worship and answer to Allah. There is a great
big world of difference in the Islam practiced in various places.
>
> Logic dictates that to be an either/or question, and I wonder how you,
> Professor, get around this simple fact.
> No room for fuzzy bubbling, Professor, sorry.
There is nothing fuzzy about who was born first. But when speaking of
religion and beliefs and values and who follows what/whom, it does get to
some form of "fuzziness" in various ways in many minds.
Remember there are 3 major Abrahamic religions and all claim to be first to
some degree or most important or whatever. You have to choose for yourself
here, I guess. Just don't blaim Paul for stating what is believed by one
of them.
That's the explanation, take from it what you want. There are lots of
things about Islam that you have not considered, maybe? I am a Jew, so I am
not an authority, but I did learn what they do believe and why. Norma
>
> TK9
>
>
>
>
>
CW
You're wrong. His ad reads ...."sleeps one, stables four."
CW
TonyaK9
"Norma" <norm...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:105e9ob...@corp.supernews.com...
So, Professor, logic is not one of your specialties.
You should've said so in one sentence and spare us a page full of
bubble-gum.
TK9
Norma
And baiting it one of your specialties. If you believe that religion is
absolute and explainable logic, then who is wasting what? Norma
>
> TK9
>
>
Rick Zuma
> Let me ask you one thing before you criticise the religion of Islam.
> What good will you get from blowing up Mecca?
Ending the religion! Take out the major pillars and the religion
falls. Islam is a religion of world conquest with Mecca as the proof
that Allah favors Muhammad. With that symbol incinerated by a nuclear
explosion, Islam starts to fade.
> ... hey all muslims are not one person ok,
Ever hear of the Umma?
> so dont judge me with some other idiot calls
> himself a mulim ok
No problem. It sounds like your're not a true Muslim. More of a
Muslim-lite. Demographically, most Muslims are Muslims in name only.
> and i doon,t blive in criticizing religions
I do. They all have their faults but some are worse than others.
http://www.liberty-and-culture.com/pages/1/index.htm
> Why can't peopel just sit on their tail and live
> happy?????
Religion isn't about living "happy" in this world. That's the problem.
Some religions have moderated; but some just can't. They are today's
problem. Talk to your devout brothers, they bring shame and
humiliation to your house (Dar Al Islam).
Eugene Kent
based on the developing of the historical development of mankind's
interpreting of religious beliefs. And that goes back to the very beginnings
of human development. He was interpreting religious beliefs while writing
symbols on rocks and in caves. Islam was an answer to the decay of the Greek
and Roman societies when the Barbarians were breaking down the gates of Rome
and enforcing their own influences. The first nation that fell to the
Muslims was the Sasanian Empire by conquering the Fertile Crescent and then
driving the Vandals out of North Africa. Then Spain.
"TonyaK9" <Ton...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:L3t5c.42246$aT1....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
TonyaK9
> If you are addressing your remarks to me, then I say that my statements
were
> based on the developing of the historical development of mankind's
> interpreting of religious beliefs. And that goes back to the very
beginnings
> of human development. He was interpreting religious beliefs while writing
> symbols on rocks and in caves. Islam was an answer to the decay of the
Greek
> and Roman societies when the Barbarians were breaking down the gates of
Rome
> and enforcing their own influences. The first nation that fell to the
> Muslims was the Sasanian Empire by conquering the Fertile Crescent and
then
> driving the Vandals out of North Africa. Then Spain.
It's amazing that people can post things, without being able to read.
Let's dispose of all this fuzzy crap and let me go at it again.
If someone tells you that a Muslim (a follower of Muhammed!) lived BEFORE
Mohammed came to profess the Muslim fate, you must ask yourself these
questions:
How could a follower of Mohammed (Abraham as a Muslim!) live BEFORE Mohammed
was born?
Or is it possible that Muslims are not necessarily the followers of
Mohammed?
Which is it, for logic's sake?
Let's see if you can do any better than the reknown Professor...
TK9
Charles McCoy Jr.
> I am interested in answers from muslims.
>
> religion die? Would you feel liberated?
>
> Before you answer, just take a deep breath as the anger disappears from your
> consciousness and imagine a world without Mecca. You wake up one morning,
> turn on the radio, (if you have one) and hear that Mecca has been
> transformed into a large pane of glass.
>
I think it would destroy their cult. Islam is a geographical cult,
the sort that considers certain locations "holy" and obsesses over
them compulsively. Judaism often does the same thing, but never
as bad as Islam. Muslims lives center around Mecca at all times.
They are required to face it 5x a day to pray, and are forbidden
from facing it while taking a piss. Every year millions of the
fools make a pilgrimage to Mecca then proceed to stampede like wild
buffalo, killing thousands of themselves in the process (what a
loss). Destroying Mecca, especially that stupid rock in the middle
of it that they worship, would essentially destroy their cult. The
cult might hang on for a while afterwards as it goes through
spasmotic death throes, but in the end it would just collapse.
Eugene Kent
that Mohammad was his prophet.
Sura LIII 36 37
36 Nay, is he not acquainted
With what is in the books
Of Moses--
37 And of Abraham
Who fufilled his
engagements ?
5110 Books of Moses: apparently not the Pentateuch, or the Taurat, but some
other book or books now lost. For example, the Books of the Wars of Jehovah
is referred to in the Old Testament (Num. xxi. 14 but is now lost. The
present Pentateuch has no clear message at all of a Life to come.
5111. No original Book of Abraham is now extant. But a book called "The
Testament of Abraham " has come down to us, which seems to be a Greek
translation of a Hebrew original. See n. 6094 to lxxxvii. 19, where the
Books of Moses and Abraham are again mentioned together.
6094. No Book of Abraham has come down to us. But the Old testament
recognises that Abraham was a prophet (Gen. xx. 7). There is a book in
Greek, which has been translated by Mr.G.H. Box, called the Testament of
Abraham (published by the Society for the Promotion of Christian Knowledge,
London 1927). It seems to be a Greek translation of a Hebrew original! The
Greek Text was probably written in the second Christian century, in Egypt,
but in its presernt form it probably goes back only to the 9th or 10th
century. It was popular among the Christians. Perhaps the Jewish Midrash
also refers to a Testament of Abraham.
Enjoy.
Gene
"TonyaK9" <Ton...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:g3F5c.23996$%06....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Eugene Kent
will ever hope to have. She builds on her knowledge whereas you who makes
statements that you really don't understand. Christian fundamentalism is not
a good source to borrow from As it is build on religious hatred and racial
baiting.
"TonyaK9" <Ton...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:ERF5c.24108$%06.1...@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Eugene Kent
us down the path to hell and damnation. During the Civil Rights days there
was a song with this praise in it "with God on our side we fried six
millions" or such. The past is to be studied to avoid the mistakes that in
the past destroyed great nations. .
The trouble with your theism comment is that you yourself are practicing a
theism your self.
.
"PaulAbeles" <sir...@buckhouse.windsor.uk> wrote in message
news:D8t5c.105134$Wa.6...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Eugene Kent
As Allah said, peace be unto you.
"TonyaK9" <Ton...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:Rct5c.42256$aT1....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Eugene Kent
now slowly bleeding the West of its vitality. Spouting religious hatred and
racial slurs bought nothing for the West but a replay of terror on the
baiter.
Life is not a football game.
"Eugene Kent" <eugen...@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:40565fc8$0$82259$a046...@nnrp.fuse.net...
Eugene Kent
only fall for their mis-beliefs.
"bob young" <alasp...@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:40569D22...@netvigator.com...
Eugene Kent
say? ~~Speechless~~~? Or a phone ring while you are riding a bus what would
be your last thought?
"Tilly" <Brig...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:k%A5c.6723$rw6.1...@news.xtra.co.nz...
Norma
The Basics: (Let's try again.)
The profession of the Islamic faith states that "There is no God but Allah,
and Muhammed is his prophet". Both parts of that statement are essential to
being a Muslim. Islam incorporates all previous prophets, including Jesus,
with Muhammed as the final prophet of Allah.
Allah gave the texts and requirements for the practice of Islam to Muhammed.
So if what Muhammed did and said and dictated is from Allah, who are the
Muslims following but Allah?
In following Allah, you will find they have the same stories and events as
the Jews and Christians, but with different interpretations and meanings.
That is the faith and beliefs to which they adhere.
Within the precepts of Islam, there is stated that there is ONE religion.
It is first, last, and always. The body of the believers goal is that all
will become Muslims. When another from a different way of believing becomes
a Muslim, it is called a "Reversion". Unity and peace is the stated goal,
with all being part of the religion of Islam.
Many have been reverted through wars and great battles, thus we have the
vision (and reality in many cases) of the passion and battle revered as a
method of reverting believers and destroying those who refuse to believe.
The Infidel or non-believer is to be resisted and won over.
So how did Abraham become a Muslim? By being the Father of Ishmael, the
Patriarch of the Tribes of Islam.
Also:
There are those who believe that Abraham and Ishmael cleared the Khaaba in
Makka of all idolatry. Then there are those who do not, that is was
Muhammed who did that in a great battle with the people of Makka in what is
known as Saudi Arabia at the present time.
TonyaK9
Norma,
Are you trying to prove that following Islam requires abandoning all and any
logic?
Then you seem to be doing an exceptional job!!!
TK9
Norma
There is no logic. It is a matter of faith and practicing it. Although it
does have a *sense* of a logic. They took what was, subsumed that,
intergrated all of it, it evolved, and stated it stronger and are
implementing lots of methods for achievement. The accomplishing of the
purpose will be something else again and it doesn't look very organized or
logical to us, but it is working somewhere. It is, perhaps, as close to
entropy that can be discovered in a "dynamic" human environment.
The technologies of today are attempts to create the logical processes
desired for the future. What happened above may be what we see over and
over again in other places, like all manner of labs (I certainly do in the
crdiovascular research that we do on animals and people, and the new
technology we use in our heart and vascular surgery, for instance), and we
may all be seeking the same kind of unreachable purposes as the Muslims in
almost everything we see around us. The problem here is that is doesn't
work when it comes to human beings, does it?
You wanted to know. Now you do. You find some logic that makes perfect
sense anywhere and then you show it to me. Norma
PS Do you think they will reach their goal? They are trying pretty hard
and making progress in many areas of the world. Many of them see logic in
what they believe and want. We may not, but that doesn't stop them.
Fortunately there are people who are Muslims who have discovered that it
isn't what is realistic, but the others are complicating almost everything
else, because of the "faith". It may be time to pray for the newer thinkers
among them, and to engender some new ways of relating to them instead of
threats and continued killing and terror.
bob young
Rick Zuma wrote:
> Aku...@hotmail.com (AKurd96) wrote in message news:<e90c6991.04031...@posting.google.com>...
> > Let me ask you one thing before you criticise the religion of Islam.
> > What good will you get from blowing up Mecca?
>
> Ending the religion! Take out the major pillars and the religion
> falls. Islam is a religion of world conquest with Mecca as the proof
> that Allah favors Muhammad. With that symbol incinerated by a nuclear
> explosion, Islam starts to fade.
>
> > ... hey all muslims are not one person ok,
>
> Ever hear of the Umma?
>
> > so dont judge me with some other idiot calls
> > himself a mulim ok
>
> No problem. It sounds like your're not a true Muslim. More of a
> Muslim-lite. Demographically, most Muslims are Muslims in name only.
>
> > and i doon,t blive in criticizing religions
>
> I do. They all have their faults but some are worse than others.
>
> http://www.liberty-and-culture.com/pages/1/index.htm
>
> > Why can't peopel just sit on their tail and live
> > happy?????
>
> Religion isn't about living "happy" in this world....
...hardly, a lifetime of banging your head on the floor and performing boring rituals eventually gets to
some people and then, in some cases, problems start with need to get more out of something that is
incapable of offering anything other than cement to bind a group of people together.
for 'religion' read 'Large clubs' there's no difference, apart from the invented gods
LeftBank
"Charles McCoy Jr." <sni...@ohio.highway.us> a écrit dans le message de
news:3e2dnZd6E9K...@bravo.net...
The fact that Jews can live without Jerusalem, as they have done for most of
the last 2000 years, supports your argument. Christians can certainly
survive without Rome as millions of protestants and orthodox prove on a
daily basis.
I am still curious how a moslem would feel if Mecca was no more.
Norma
Jews know that Jerusalem is there, although in constant threat and are not
so satisfied with that. Christians do not plac the import on Rome that one
might think, with the exceptions of many Catholics. Christians also have a
stake in the safety of Jerusalem. That city is of importance to all three
of the Abrahamic religions really.
The Muslims would become even more convinced that they need to kill the
infidels if anything happened in Makka. I hardly think it is something that
should be pondered as an act of revenge or even to wonder about. If you
wonder about fanatics and terrorism now, just keep up the threats against
Makka and Medinah and you will see an outbreak of more Muslims who will hate
us in addition to the present day terrorists. What kind of humane act would
this be to wipe out such an important holy site from a relition that already
does not teach tolerance of the non-Muslim? This is even ridiculous to put
before them with any seriousness and taking a real risk from the Arab world
in particular, but really all of the Muslim world. Norma
>
>
>
>
bob young
CooolBreeeze wrote:
> "LeftBank" <Left...@spamme.com> wrote
> > How would you really feel?
>
> COMMENT:
>
> The Prophet of Allah s.a.w. told us 1425 years ago that Mecca would be
> destroyed. That will be unfortunate. It will be more unfortunate for
> the West and Israhell because if true then the rest of the prophecy is
> that hell on earth is unleashed.
>
> Don't feel big because of your machines and manufactures I am sure
> there is a sense of control and power for you but there is none in
> reality. All control and power rest solely with God....
......seen that god lately?
......................gods are taught by:
parents
your community
your priests
All gods, all the thousands of them, are man made, and you talk of 'hell
on earth'.
The only Hell is in the minds of sick religionists
You want to believe in something? Believe in your fellow man, regardless
of whether or not he believes in a non existant god or
not.......otherwise there is no future for mankind, of any denomination.
Bob
A Brit. in Hong Kong
Rick Zuma
>
> ...hardly, a lifetime of banging your head on the floor and performing boring rituals eventually gets to
> some people and then, in some cases, problems start with need to get more out of something that is
> incapable of offering anything other than cement to bind a group of people together.
>
I never figured out the attraction of kissing the floor and sticking
your butt in the air. And 5 times a day!
LeftBank
"Norma" <norm...@charter.net> a écrit dans le message de
news:105gad8...@corp.supernews.com...
In as far as you are applying a western moral code your assumption is
correct. But I want to know from a muslim point of view? Obviously a threat
to destroy Mecca would increase terrorism, but I'm talking about actually
doing it, completely wiping Mecca from the map.
I know it means a lot to muslims, but western civilization means a lot to me
so I am examing the possible options to get us out of this mess. Remember
this is usenet, not the real world. I am just brainstorming
Would they say Inch'allah?
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Norma
It is Insha'Allah. shat would nuking Makka do for the Western world, except
to show our own violence? This would be a spiteful act, as the Makkans have
done nothing in particular to us. We need to start addressing those Muslims
who can't think beyond the basic purpose of unity and peace by subtracting
the Infidels in any way possible. Can't you see that? Somewhere in this
thread I have placed the basic precepts of Islam and how it they see
themselves as evolved from the other Abrahamic religions. This is a
religious as well as political problem for heavens sake. Look to the
basics. I sent them to a poster named TonyaK, so you can look to see what
they really are.
I learned all I could about Islam when I worked in Saudi Arabia, but we need
to address and keep in contact with the "new thinkers" within the
religion/culture and work at eliminating the fanatics who believe in the
original purpose. Norma
>
>
>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
TonyaK9
> I learned all I could about Islam
And it ain't a whole lot...
TK9
Phaedrine
Richa...@poetic.com (Rick Zuma) wrote:
> > so dont judge me with some other idiot calls
> > himself a mulim ok
>
> No problem. It sounds like your're not a true Muslim. More of a
> Muslim-lite. Demographically, most Muslims are Muslims in name only.
Mayhap he is a low-carp muslim. :: ducks ::
Norma
What more did you expect? It is what it is. Norma
Norma
Just out of curiosity:
The fact that they combined Judaism and Christianity; called everyone from
Adam on a Muslim; reinterpretted and restated all knowns texts, beliefs, and
practices; added a Prophet; and can justify killing you if you don't say
the Profession of Faith and practice as they do, isn't enough?
We see it happening every day and everywhere, and you don't think that is
enough to justify giving them some thought? Well, whatever... Norma
>
>
Eugene Kent
arising in the Middle East and Asia.
As for Israel it is now a declining ideology because a Jewish fanatic
(Sharon) tried to create a fact but ended up with just bloody hands. Bush
tried to created a political fact and ended up with world infatada. The
nuking of Makka is a Jewish wet dream. But the probability of either London
or Washington being nuked statistically raises with each new outrage by Bush
or Sharon. History repeats fools dream.
"Norma" <norm...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:105f7t4...@corp.supernews.com...
Eugene Kent
"Rick Zuma" <Richa...@poetic.com> wrote in message
news:3fba7115.04031...@posting.google.com...
Eugene Kent
the Middle East during the Crusades and plunged the West into the dark ages,
them British Imperialism tried it and only ended up killing millions of
humans and bankrupting their countries. But this time there may be a
possibility that when the feathers stop flying we will see the West
subjugated to the Orient.
"Norma" <norm...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:105hc3h...@corp.supernews.com...
Rodrigo Diaz
"Phaedrine" <Phaedrine_...@spamenot.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Phaedrine_Stonebridge...@news-60.giganews.com...
Norma
> Norma, it's more of Western ignorance and prejudices. They tried to
dominate
> the Middle East during the Crusades and plunged the West into the dark
ages,
> them British Imperialism tried it and only ended up killing millions of
> humans and bankrupting their countries. But this time there may be a
> possibility that when the feathers stop flying we will see the West
> subjugated to the Orient.
Of course, but no one wants to see that right now. Norma
bob young
Eugene Kent wrote:
> Norma, it's more of Western ignorance and prejudices. They tried to dominate
> the Middle East during the Crusades and plunged the West into the dark ages,
> them British Imperialism tried it and only ended up killing millions of
> humans and bankrupting their countries. But this time there may be a
> possibility that when the feathers stop flying we will see the West
> subjugated to the Orient...
...you are one sick individual
TonyaK9
>
>
> Eugene Kent wrote:
>
> > Norma, it's more of Western ignorance and prejudices. They tried to
dominate
> > the Middle East during the Crusades and plunged the West into the dark
ages,
> > them British Imperialism tried it and only ended up killing millions of
> > humans and bankrupting their countries. But this time there may be a
> > possibility that when the feathers stop flying we will see the West
> > subjugated to the Orient...
>
> ...you are one sick individual
They both are, Bob - Eugenecunt and Norma...
TK9
Israel's Lightning
be bombed in a big way with either chemical, biological or nuclear devices,
there would be no arab world to speak of. In saying that, maybe the forces
of reason may well persuade the powers that be to not completely destroy the
arab country who has sponsored the bombing.
Surely you must know that there would be no reasoning whatsoever should any
large scale bombing happen to Israel... where that to happen, we could say
bye bye to your filthy, murderous, puss filled, scum sucking, bottom
dwelling, backward arsed, camel riding, stinking, boy fucking, donkey
breath, ugly as goat shit arab cunt population- and I for one would say
Hooray!
The sooner you disgusting, primative, good for nothing, backward (Oh I said
that already) lot are gone, the better the world will be without you.
Amen.
"Eugene Kent" <eugen...@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:4058bbb9$0$73104$a046...@nnrp.fuse.net...
Norma
No I am not!! I have told you about Islam, and if you don't believe that is
the truth that is up to you. But what I say about what they believe and how
things will be is the what will happen. I am sick of your constant sarcasm
and smart mouth. Norma
>
> TK9
>
>
>
The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe
<israelsl...@aol.com> wrote:
>I assume you have enough brain cells to work out that should a major US city
>be bombed in a big way with either chemical, biological or nuclear devices,
>there would be no arab world to speak of. In saying that, maybe the forces
>of reason may well persuade the powers that be to not completely destroy the
>arab country who has sponsored the bombing.
>
>Surely you must know that there would be no reasoning whatsoever should any
>large scale bombing happen to Israel... where that to happen, we could say
>bye bye to your filthy, murderous, puss filled, scum sucking, bottom
>dwelling, backward arsed, camel riding, stinking, boy fucking, donkey
>breath, ugly as goat shit arab cunt population- and I for one would say
>Hooray!
>
>The sooner you disgusting, primative, good for nothing, backward (Oh I said
>that already) lot are gone, the better the world will be without you.
>Amen.
I take it you're referring to *all* semites?
TonyaK9
Father Ted
Israel's Lightning
"Israel's Lightning" <israelsl...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:4056117b$0$22516$5a62...@freenews.iinet.net.au...
> I take your post at face value-
> If the majority of Muslims around the world are good people and its only a
> small minority that are ruthless, spineless, coward, murderers etc why
then
> do these good Muslim people, (who if I can believe you are in the
> over-whelming majority) allow their neighbours, sons, daughters, aunts,
> uncles, brothers, mothers, fathers, dogs etc to go around and blow up
> children, old people, pregnant women, teen-ages, fathers, mothers (have I
> missed out anyone who hasn't been murdered with a sickening frequency?)
Why
> do these same masses of good Muslims cheer and celebrate when infidels die
> enmass by the hands of their brethren- THIS is my question?
>
> To me it looks like either the religion of Islam promotes and breeds a
blood
> thirsty, Deity free, brain dead group of savages, or we are all seeing the
> wrong thing. Furthermore... you are totally misunderstood and you are not
> actually cheering or celebrating but are in fact crying with rage at your
> own people who have brought shame and a universal and an enduring
loathsome
> upon all of the Islamic world.
>
>
>
> "AKurd96" <Aku...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:e90c6991.04031...@posting.google.com...
> > Let me ask you one thing before you criticise the religion of Islam.
> > What good will you get from blowing up Mecca? I mean just beacuse you
> > might have anger ona Muslim or something what will blowingup Mecca do
> > for you, yeh it might make you happy for a minute, but hey all muslims
> > are not one person ok, so dont judge me with some other idiot calls
> > himself a mulim ok and i doon,t blive in criticizing religions i love
> > all religions by god and i respect all the major 3 religions just as
> > my ownand i respect teh prophets teh same way, so teher is no need to
> > put your anger on billion os peoplea because of one idiot or a group.
> > Ihonestly am against all types of war, bombings, suicide crap, and all
> > that terrorism stuff. Whty cant peopel just sit ontheir taiol and live
> > happy????? Terrosrist like hams al qaedaal islam and all other Hell
> > people. May god help you all
>
>
UncleStoner
> the Middle East during the Crusades and plunged the West into the dark ages,
The Muslims had been attacking, raping, annexing, and bleeding parts
of Europe for a long time before the first Crusaders left for
Jerusalem. Those parts of the world that were subjugated by Islam now
must bow five a times a day in the direction of their conquerers.
Their own cultures and morals have been destroyed and can never come
back. What Islam did in its first centuries represented the worst
colonialism ever witnessed on the face of this planet.
The Crusades plunged Europe into the Dark Ages? Utter and complete
nonsense. Europe had already reached its nadir by the time of the
first Crusade. In fact, many argue that the Crusades did a lot to
spark the Renaissance, since it exposed Europeans to Muslim culture
which was significantly more advanced at the time.
bob young
Norma wrote:
Islam has no authoirty over the free world. People should be free to choose
their own lifestyle in any way they please. No-one tries to change Islam, it
is respected as relious beleif and you should respect other beleifs and rules
of law.
These are mostly non Mulsim countries - do you plan to convert all of them, all
under duress, to your way of life?::
Albania
Argentina
Armenia
Bangladesh
Benin
Bolivia
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Botswana
Brazil
Bulgaria
Burkina Faso
Cameroon
Cape Verde
Chile
Republic of China (Taiwan)
Colombia
Republic of the Congo
Costa Rica
Côte d'Ivoire
Croatia
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Dominica
Dominican Republic
Ecuador
El Salvador
Estonia
Ethiopia
Fiji
Finland
France
The Gambia
Germany
Ghana
Greece
Guatemala
Guyana
Honduras
Hungary
Iceland
India
Republic of Ireland
Israel
Italy
Kenya
Kiribati
Republic of Korea
Latvia
Lithuania
Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia
Madagascar
Malawi
Mali
Malta
Marshall Islands
Mauritius
Mexico
Federated States of Micronesia
Moldova
Mongolia
Mozambique
Namibia
Nauru
Nicaragua
Niger
Palau
Panama
Paraguay
Peru
Philippines
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Russia
San Marino
São Tomé and Príncipe
Senegal
Serbia and Montenegro
Seychelles
Sierra Leone
Slovakia
Slovenia
South Africa
Sri Lanka
Suriname
Switzerland
Tanzania
Trinidad and Tobago
Ukraine
United States
Uruguay
Vanuatu
Venezuela
Zambia
Andorra (coprincipality)
Antigua and Barbuda (Commonwealth realm)
Australia (Commonwealth realm)
The Bahamas (Commonwealth realm)
Barbados (Commonwealth realm)
Belgium (kingdom)
Belize (Commonwealth realm)
Cambodia (kingdom)
Canada (Commonwealth realm)
Denmark (kingdom)
Grenada (Commonwealth realm)
Jamaica (Commonwealth realm)
Japan
Jordan (kingdom)
Lesotho (kingdom)
Liechtenstein (principality)
Luxembourg (grand duchy)
Monaco (principality)
Morocco (kingdom)
Nepal (kingdom)
Netherlands (kingdom)
New Zealand (Commonwealth realm)
Norway (kingdom)
Papua New Guinea (Commonwealth realm)
Saint Kitts and Nevis (Commonwealth realm)
Saint Lucia (Commonwealth realm)
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines (Commonwealth realm)
Samoa (monarchy)
Solomon Islands (Commonwealth realm)
Spain (kingdom)
Sweden (kingdom)
Thailand (kingdom)
Tuvalu (Commonwealth realm)
United Kingdom (kingdom)
Swaziland (kingdom)
Tonga (kingdom)
Vatican City (papal state)
Algeria
Angola
Belarus
Chad
Djibouti
Equatorial Guinea )
Gabon
Guinea
Maldives (opposition effectively banned)
Mauritania
Rwanda
Singapore
Togo
Uganda
People's Republic of China
Vietnam
bob young
Rick Zuma wrote:
Early primitives understood virtually nothing. They feared, to begin with, the evil spirits. These were
responsible for all mishaps, deaths at childbirth, failure of the simple crops, floods, thunder and
lightening etc., etc.,etc.,
To counter the evil spitrits it did note take long for some enterprising indiviual to create a 'god' who
would chase away the evil spirits' Hey Presto - the birth of gods.
The human mind can now bend to it's own creations. In other words, bad things still come from the evil
spirits [evil] and all the goodness from their created god [good].
So they sent food to their god, their kind of food [after all they created him so he must eat the same
stuff], some even sacrificed children [you can draw your own conclusions on that one] and they 'bowed down to
Him' just like it says in the bible and like Muslems do today. We love to kow tow to our own creeations it
makes us feel good.
We really are a laod of twits.
But I do wish that all children could be given the chance to make their own decisions in the year 2004!
SONIA
MAY ALLAH SEND YOU TO HELL!
PEOPLE LIKE YOU WILL SUFFER IN THIS WORL AND IN THE LIFE AFTER DEATH.
SO WHAT EVER YOUR EVIL INTENTIONS ARE LET ME SAY MUSLIMS DO NOT NEED
TO WORRY ABOUT THAT, BECAUSE MECCA IS WHERE IS THE HOUSE OF OUR GOD
"ALLAH". AND ALLAH PROTECTS HIS HOUSE BY HIMSELF.
READ THIS PART OF QURAN:
http://www.equran.org/qrn/view/trans/mohsin/105.html
MAY ALLAH GUIDE YOU IF HE WILLS.
SHALL BE WAITING FOR YOUR REPLY.
"LeftBank" <Left...@spamme.com> wrote in message news:<m7j5c.10$ZR5.370@psinet-eu-nl>...
Lance S. Ferm
Nuking Mecca will happen within 25 years.
"SONIA" <soniar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ec1268c4.04032...@posting.google.com...
Kola Kube
cockroaches they are, I wish I had the facility to launch an airstrike
myself, and wipe them all out in one fell stroke. It wouldn't make me happy
for 1 minute, it would make me overjoyed for the rest of my life.
My god fuck you all in the ass.
Oh, and learn to spell, you pointless inbred savage.
Lance Delacroix
>HI!
>MAY ALLAH SEND YOU TO HELL!
But Allah is all-merciful, unlike the mooslim horde.
>PEOPLE LIKE YOU WILL SUFFER IN THIS WORL AND IN THE LIFE AFTER DEATH.
>SO WHAT EVER YOUR EVIL INTENTIONS ARE LET ME SAY MUSLIMS DO NOT NEED
>TO WORRY ABOUT THAT, BECAUSE MECCA IS WHERE IS THE HOUSE OF OUR GOD
>"ALLAH". AND ALLAH PROTECTS HIS HOUSE BY HIMSELF.
I like the way Allah enjoys himself by whipping mooslims up into such
a frenzy during Hajj that they stampede and trample each other to
death. This shows that Allah created mooslims mainly for his own
entertainment.
Lance Delacroix
<cultb...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>http://www.truthandgrace.com/ISLAM.htm
>
>Nuking Mecca will happen within 25 years.
It's gotta be done. Makkah has become a symbol of fanatical excess
and is no longer the Holy Place that it was designated to be by Allah.
When the symbol becomes more important than the spirit of Allah, it's
time to get out the bunker busters.
The biggest problem is going to be keeping the dust down. We don't
want to screw up the diving for the tourists at the Red Sea resorts.
Peter
ALLAH CANT DO SHIT TO HELP YOU.
--
Peter
http://atcoalition.showsit.info/
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is
worth war is much worse." --John Stuart Mill
"SONIA" <soniar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ec1268c4.04032...@posting.google.com...
TonyaK9
"Lance Delacroix" <la...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:ob0p50t2nn08mvu3a...@4ax.com...
Americans and Israelis are pretty good at resolving technological
problems...
TonyaK9
With a sadistic god and masochistic crowd of followers, this show takes the
first prize on the S&M circle...
Lance Delacroix
wrote:
Tonya! We meet again, and the passion flares...
Lance Delacroix
wrote:
Stop it, Tonya! You know what it does to me when you talk about S&M.
:-)
Lance Delacroix
wrote:
>YOU LITTLE SHIT SATAN WORSHIPERS WILL SOON BE HISTORY. YOUR BASTARD SATAN
>ALLAH CANT DO SHIT TO HELP YOU.
Holy fuck, man, get a grip on yourself. It ain't Allah's fault that
all these mooslims are running amok. Consider them his test of your
ability to solve problems. Think "carry out the trash".
PaulAbeles
You must be an Alsatian.
TonyaK9
Lance, control yourself, please.
We don't want Norma to have a stroke...
;)
TK9
TonyaK9
Lemme tell you a real life story on the subject, Lance.
Once, long time ago, when I was still working for a Telecommunication
industry, I received a proposal from a consulting engineering firm to work
out a certain solution we needed to deliver to a third party. That
consulting firm's proposal indicated that they were going to charge us for
their services "on the S&M basis." Of course, what they meant was on the
"Service & Materials basis." But you can imagine - I had a field day calling
that company and talking to their marketing folks!... First, they got
scared, then we all laughed like crazy.
TK9
TonyaK9
"PaulAbeles" <sir...@buckhouse.windsor.uk> wrote in message
news:kg67c.117902$Wa.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
You mean, Lance has his roots in Alsace, right abeles?
And how do you happen to know this?
Your bullshitting is getting to the level of amigofecal...
TK9
Israel's Lightning
PaulAbeles
I was referring to the British breed Alsatian aka German Shepherd.
PaulAbeles
You are easily amused.
Lance Delacroix
<sir...@buckhouse.windsor.uk> wrote:
>
>"Lance Delacroix" <la...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:rc8p50l357n8ds3g4...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 16:55:05 GMT, "TonyaK9" <Ton...@excite.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Lance Delacroix" <la...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> >news:ob0p50t2nn08mvu3a...@4ax.com...
>> >> On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:36:08 GMT, "Lance S. Ferm"
>> >> <cultb...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >http://www.truthandgrace.com/ISLAM.htm
>> >> >
>> >> >Nuking Mecca will happen within 25 years.
>> >>
>> >> It's gotta be done. Makkah has become a symbol of fanatical excess
>> >> and is no longer the Holy Place that it was designated to be by Allah.
>> >> When the symbol becomes more important than the spirit of Allah, it's
>> >> time to get out the bunker busters.
>> >>
>> >> The biggest problem is going to be keeping the dust down. We don't
>> >> want to screw up the diving for the tourists at the Red Sea resorts.
>> >
>> >Americans and Israelis are pretty good at resolving technological
>> >problems...
>>
>> Tonya! We meet again, and the passion flares...
>
>You must be an Alsatian.
And you must be an Assholtian.
Lance Delacroix
wrote:
OH, GOD, TONYA!! 'Scuze me, I have to go to the bathroom for a few
minutes.
Lance Delacroix
wrote:
>
>"Lance Delacroix" <la...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:rc8p50l357n8ds3g4...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 16:55:05 GMT, "TonyaK9" <Ton...@excite.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Lance Delacroix" <la...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> >news:ob0p50t2nn08mvu3a...@4ax.com...
>> >> On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:36:08 GMT, "Lance S. Ferm"
>> >> <cultb...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >http://www.truthandgrace.com/ISLAM.htm
>> >> >
>> >> >Nuking Mecca will happen within 25 years.
>> >>
>> >> It's gotta be done. Makkah has become a symbol of fanatical excess
>> >> and is no longer the Holy Place that it was designated to be by Allah.
>> >> When the symbol becomes more important than the spirit of Allah, it's
>> >> time to get out the bunker busters.
>> >>
>> >> The biggest problem is going to be keeping the dust down. We don't
>> >> want to screw up the diving for the tourists at the Red Sea resorts.
>> >
>> >Americans and Israelis are pretty good at resolving technological
>> >problems...
>>
>> Tonya! We meet again, and the passion flares...
>
>Lance, control yourself, please.
>We don't want Norma to have a stroke...
Norma IS a stroke.
>;)
>TK9
>
Lance Delacroix
Mind your own business, voyeur. Can't you see we want to be alone?
TonyaK9
TonyaK9
Voyeur? The SOB turned senile.
After having read Telushkin's book, abeles had lost his last ball-bearings
and started broadcasting to the world, demanding that people called him
"Rabbi Abeles." About the same time the moron has also went through N.
Finkelshtein anti-Israeli exploits, and the combination of those two books
made him loose his last bearings.
From his latest posts, you can feel that his miserable life has become a
total hell - I just wish some kind soul would put him out of his misery...
TK9
Father Ted
He likes watching - it's about all he can manage
Loose Cannon
occupies Jerusalem;islams 3rd most holy site.All the bullshit your
mullahs preach is to liberate Jerusalem.There's 1 and1/2 billion of
you people.A few hundred thousand Israelis occupy the city. you can't
do a thing.Now,you think you will threaten the mighty U.S.A. This
country will spray you sandmonkeys with napalm first(ask Vietnam)and
then bomb the shit out of your cowardly cities(ask any country we've
gone to war with since airflight was invented)God bless America.
TonyaK9
"Loose Cannon" <plhum...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5a858a1e.04032...@posting.google.com...
Everything is correct in your post, Cannon.
Except one thing: you seem to have bought into Arafart's assertion that
Jerusalem is "the 3rd most holy site" of the Muslim world.
Here's where reality check is due.
How Did Jerusalem Come to be so Holy to Moslems?
or: Why and When was the Myth of al-Aqsa Created?
By Dr. Mordechai Kedar
http://www.infoisrael.net/cgi-local/text.pl?source=3/b/010920021
When the Prophet Mohammad established Islam, he introduced a minimum of
innovations. He employed the hallowed personages, historic legends and
sacred sites of Judaism and Christianity, and even paganism, by Islamizing
them. Thus, according to Islam, Abraham was the first Moslem and Jesus and
St. John (the sons of Miriam, sister of Moses and Aron) were prophets and
guardians of the second heaven. Many Biblical legends ("asatir al-awwalin"),
which were familiar to the pagan Arabs before the dawn of Islam, underwent
an Islamic conversion, and the Koran as well as the Hadith (the Islamic oral
tradition), are replete with them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Islamization was practiced on places as well as persons: Mecca and the holy
stone - al-Ka'bah - were holy sites of the pre-Islamic pagan Arabs. The
Umayyad Mosque in Damascus and the Great Mosque of Istanbul were erected on
the sites of Christian-Byzantine churches - two of the better known examples
of how Islam treats sanctuaries of other faiths.
Jerusalem, too, underwent the process of Islamization: at first Muhammad
attempted to convince the Jews near Medina to join his young community, and,
by way of persuasion, established the direction of prayer (kiblah) to be to
the north, towards Jerusalem, in keeping with Jewish practice; but after he
failed in this attempt he turned against the Jews, killed many of them, and
directed the kiblah southward, towards Mecca.
Muhammad's abandonment of Jerusalem explains the fact that this city is not
mentioned even once in the Koran.
After Palestine was occupied by the Moslems, its capital was Ramlah, 30
miles to the west of Jerusalem, signifying that Jerusalem meant nothing to
them.
Islam rediscovered Jerusalem 50 years after Mohammad's death. In 682 CE,
'Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr rebelled against the Islamic rulers in Damascus,
conquered Mecca and prevented pilgrims from reaching Mecca for the Hajj.
'Abd al-Malik, the Umayyad Calif, needed an alternative site for the
pilgrimage and settled on Jerusalem which was then under his control. In
order to justify this choice, a verse from the Koran was chosen (17,1 = sura
17, verse 1) which states (trans. by Majid Fakhri):
"Glory to Him who caused His servant to travel by night from the Sacred
Mosque to the Farthest Mosque, whose precincts We have blessed, in order to
show him some of Our Signs, He is indeed the All-Hearing, the All-Seeing."
The meaning ascribed to this verse (see the commentary in al-Jallalayn) is
that "the furthest mosque" (al-masgid al-aqsa) is in Jerusalem and that
Mohammad was conveyed there one night (although at that time the journey
took three days by camel), on the back of al-Buraq, a magical horse with the
head of a woman, wings of an eagle, the tail of a peacock, and hoofs
reaching to the horizon. He tethered the horse to the Western Wall of the
Temple Mount and from there ascended to the seventh heaven together with the
angel Gabriel. On his way he met the prophets of other religions who are the
guardians of heaven: Adam, Jesus, St. John, Joseph, Idris (=Seth?), Aaron,
Moses and Abraham who accompanied him on his way to Allah and who accepted
him as their master.
Thus Islam tries to gain legitimacy over other, older religions, by creating
a scene in which the former prophets agree to Mohammad's mastery, thus
making him Khatam al-Anbiya' ("the Seal of the Prophets").
Not surprisingly, this miraculous account contradicts a number of the tenets
of Islam: How can a living man of flesh and blood ascend to heaven? How can
a mythical creature carry a mortal to a real destination? Questions such as
these have caused orthodox Moslem thinkers to conclude that the nocturnal
journey was a dream of Mohammad's. The journey and the ascent serves Islam
to "go one better" than the Bible: Moses "only" went up to Mt. Sinai, in the
middle of nowhere, and drew close to heaven, whereas Mohammad went all the
way up to Allah, and from Jerusalem itself.
What are the difficulties with the belief that the al-Aqsa mosque described
in Islamic tradition is located in Jerusalem? For one, the people of Mecca,
who knew Muhammad well, did not believe this story. Only Abu Bakr, (later
the first Calif), believed him and thus was called al-Siddiq ("the
believer"). The second difficulty is that Islamic tradition tells us that
al-Aqsa mosque is near Mecca on the Arabian peninsula. This was
unequivocally stated in "Kitab al-Maghazi" (Oxford UP, 1966, vol. 3, pp.
958-9), a book by the Moslem historian and geographer al-Waqidi.
According to al-Waqidi, there were two "masjeds" (places of prayer) in
al-Gi'ranah, a village between Mecca and Ta'if, one was "the closer mosque"
(al-masjid al-adana) and the other was "the further mosque" (al-masjid
al-aqsa), and Muhammad would pray there when he went out of town.
This description by al-Waqidi which is supported by a chain of authorities
(isnad), was not "convenient" for the Islamic propaganda of the 7th century.
In order to establish a basis for the awareness of the "holiness" of
Jerusalem in Islam, the Califs of the Ummayad dynasty invented many
"traditions" upholding the value of Jerusalem (known as "fadha'il bayt
al-Maqdis"), which would justify pilgrimage to Jerusalem for the faithful
Moslems. Thus was al-Masjid al-Aqsa "transported" to Jerusalem. It should be
noted that Saladin also adopted the myth of al-Aqsa and those "traditions"
in order to recruit and inflame the Moslem warriors against the Crusaders in
the 12th century.
Another aim of the Islamization of Jerusalem was to undermine the legitimacy
of the older religions, Judaism and Christianity, which consider Jerusalem
to be a holy city. Islam is presented as the only legitimate religion,
destined to replace the other two, because they had changed and distorted
the Word of God, each in its turn. (ghyyarou wa-baddalou. On the alleged
forgeries of the Holy Scriptures, made by Jews and Christians, see the third
chapter of: M. J. Kister, "haddithu 'an bani isra'il wa-la haraja", IOS 2
(1972), pp. 215-239. Kister quotes dozens of Islamic sources).
Though Judaism and Christianity can exist side by side in Jerusalem, Islam
regards both of them as betrayals of Allah and his teachings, and has always
done, and will continue to do, all in its power to expel both of them from
this city. It is interesting to note that this expulsion is retroactive: The
Islamic broadcasters of the Palestinian radio stations consistently make it
a point to claim that the Jews never had a temple on the Temple Mount and
certainly not two temples. (Where, then, according to them, did Jesus
preach?)
Arafat, himself a secular person (ask the Hamas!), is doing today exactly
what the Califs of the Umayyad dynasty did 1300 years ago: he is marshaling
the holiness of Jerusalem to serve his political ends. He must not give
control of Jerusalem over to the Jews since according to Islam they are
impure and the wrath of Allah is upon them (al-maghdhoub 'alayhim; Koran
1,7, see al-Jalalayn and other commentaries; note that verse numbers may
differ slightly in the various editions of the Koran). The Jews are the sons
of monkeys and pigs (5,60). (For the idea that Jews are related to pigs and
monkeys see, for example, Musnad al-Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, (Beirut 1969)
vol. 3, p. 241. See also pages 348, 395, 397, 421, and vol. 6, p. 135.) The
Jews are those who distorted the holy writings which were revealed to them
(2,73; 3,72) and denied God's signs (3,63). Since they violated the covenant
with their God (4,154), He cursed them (5,16) and they are forever the
inheritors of hell (3,112). So how can Arafat abandon Jerusalem to the Jews?
The Palestinian media these days are full of messages of Jihad, calling to
broaden the national-political war between Israel and the Palestinians into
a religious-Islamic war between the Jews and the Moslems. READ THEIR LIPS:
for them Christianity is no better than Judaism, since both "forfeited"
their right to rule over Jerusalem. Only Islam - Din al-Haqq ("the Religion
of Truth") has this right, and forever. (shaykh 'Ikrima Sabri, the mufti of
Jerusalem, in Friday's khutbah 4 weeks ago, "Sawt falastin", the PA official
radio).
Since the holiness of Jerusalem to Islam has always been, and still is no
more than a politically motivated holiness, Arafat would be putting his
political head on the block should he give it up. Must Judaism and
Christianity defer to myths related in Islamic texts or envisioned in
Mohammad's dreams, long after Jerusalem was established as the ancient, true
center of these two religions which preceded Islam? Should UN forces be sent
to the Middle East just because Arafat decided to recycle the political
problems of the Umayyads 1250 years after the curtain came down on their
role in history?