WHY PARIS IS BURNING
DoD
same.
Bands of youths in balaclavas start by setting fire to parked cars, break
shop windows with baseball bats, wreck public telephones and ransack
cinemas, libraries and schools. When the police arrive on the scene, the
rioters attack them with stones, knives and baseball bats.
The police respond by firing tear-gas grenades and, on occasions, blank
shots in the air. Sometimes the youths fire back - with real bullets.
These scenes are not from the West Bank but from 20 French cities, mostly
close to Paris, that have been plunged into a European version of the
intifada that at the time of writing appears beyond control.
The troubles first began in Clichy-sous-Bois, an underprivileged suburb east
of Paris, a week ago. France's bombastic interior minister, Nicholas
Sarkozy, responded by sending over 400 heavily armed policemen to "impose
the laws of the republic," and promised to crush "the louts and hooligans"
within the day. Within a few days, however, it had dawned on anyone who
wanted to know that this was no "outburst by criminal elements" that could
be handled with a mixture of braggadocio and batons.
By Monday, everyone in Paris was speaking of "an unprecedented crisis." Both
Sarkozy and his boss, Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin, had to cancel
foreign trips to deal with the riots.
How did it all start? The accepted account is that sometime last week, a
group of young boys in Clichy engaged in one of their favorite sports:
stealing parts of parked cars.
Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have not been
present in that suburb for years.
The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody, telephoned
the police and reported the thieving spree taking place just opposite her
building. The police were thus obliged to do something - which meant
entering a city that, as noted, had been a no-go area for them.
Once the police arrived on the scene, the youths - who had been reigning
over Clichy pretty unmolested for years - got really angry. A brief chase
took place in the street, and two of the youths, who were not actually
chased by the police, sought refuge in a cordoned-off area housing a power
pylon. Both were electrocuted.
Once news of their deaths was out, Clichy was all up in arms.
With cries of "God is great," bands of youths armed with whatever they could
get hold of went on a rampage and forced the police to flee.
The French authorities could not allow a band of youths to expel the police
from French territory. So they hit back - sending in Special Forces, known
as the CRS, with armored cars and tough rules of engagement.
Within hours, the original cause of the incidents was forgotten and the
issue jelled around a demand by the representatives of the rioters that the
French police leave the "occupied territories." By midweek, the riots had
spread to three of the provinces neighboring Paris, with a population of 5.5
million.
But who lives in the affected areas? In Clichy itself, more than 80 percent
of the inhabitants are Muslim immigrants or their children, mostly from Arab
and black Africa. In other affected towns, the Muslim immigrant community
accounts for 30 percent to 60 percent of the population. But these are not
the only figures that matter. Average unemployment in the affected areas is
estimated at around 30 percent and, when it comes to young would-be workers,
reaches 60 percent.
In these suburban towns, built in the 1950s in imitation of the Soviet
social housing of the Stalinist era, people live in crammed conditions,
sometimes several generations in a tiny apartment, and see "real French
life" only on television.
The French used to flatter themselves for the success of their policy of
assimilation, which was supposed to turn immigrants from any background into
"proper Frenchmen" within a generation at most.
That policy worked as long as immigrants came to France in drips and drops
and thus could merge into a much larger mainstream. Assimilation, however,
cannot work when in most schools in the affected areas, fewer than 20
percent of the pupils are native French speakers.
France has also lost another powerful mechanism for assimilation: the
obligatory military service abolished in the 1990s.
As the number of immigrants and their descendants increases in a particular
locality, more and more of its native French inhabitants leave for "calmer
places," thus making assimilation still more difficult.
In some areas, it is possible for an immigrant or his descendants to spend a
whole life without ever encountering the need to speak French, let alone
familiarize himself with any aspect of the famous French culture.
The result is often alienation. And that, in turn, gives radical Islamists
an opportunity to propagate their message of religious and cultural
apartheid.
Some are even calling for the areas where Muslims form a majority of the
population to be reorganized on the basis of the "millet" system of the
Ottoman Empire: Each religious community (millet) would enjoy the right to
organize its social, cultural and educational life in accordance with its
religious beliefs.
In parts of France, a de facto millet system is already in place. In these
areas, all women are obliged to wear the standardized Islamist "hijab" while
most men grow their beards to the length prescribed by the sheiks.
The radicals have managed to chase away French shopkeepers selling alcohol
and pork products, forced "places of sin," such as dancing halls, cinemas
and theaters, to close down, and seized control of much of the local
administration.
A reporter who spent last weekend in Clichy and its neighboring towns of
Bondy, Aulnay-sous-Bois and Bobigny heard a single overarching message: The
French authorities should keep out.
"All we demand is to be left alone," said Mouloud Dahmani, one of the local
"emirs" engaged in negotiations to persuade the French to withdraw the
police and allow a committee of sheiks, mostly from the Muslim Brotherhood,
to negotiate an end to the hostilities.
President Jacques Chirac and Premier de Villepin are especially sore because
they had believed that their opposition to the toppling of Saddam Hussein in
2003 would give France a heroic image in the Muslim community.
That illusion has now been shattered - and the Chirac administration,
already passing through a deepening political crisis, appears to be clueless
about how to cope with what the Parisian daily France Soir has called a
"ticking time bomb."
It is now clear that a good portion of France's Muslims not only refuse to
assimilate into "the superior French culture," but firmly believe that Islam
offers the highest forms of life to which all mankind should aspire.
So what is the solution? One solution, offered by Gilles Kepel, an adviser
to Chirac on Islamic affairs, is the creation of "a new Andalusia" in which
Christians and Muslims would live side by side and cooperate to create a new
cultural synthesis.
The problem with Kepel's vision, however, is that it does not address the
important issue of political power. Who will rule this new Andalusia:
Muslims or the largely secularist Frenchmen?
Suddenly, French politics has become worth watching again, even though for
the wrong reasons.
http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/18821
Mo Hammed
"DoD" <the...@ss.mil> wrote in message
news:YDQaf.46434$Tf5....@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio.net...
DoD
news:D0Raf.28761$NJ.1...@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
> Racists?
Not exactly the kinda reply I was looking for. I would liked to have some
opinions from people that are actually French.
Ariadne
DoD wrote:
>
> Not exactly the kinda reply I was looking for. I would liked to have some
> opinions from people that are actually French.
>
DoD
"Ariadne" <ariad...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1131145494.1...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Thanks, I will take a looksie when I get home.
John of Aix
> Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have
> not been present in that suburb for years.
Absolute complete and utter nonsense.
> The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody,
> telephoned the police and reported the thieving spree taking place
> just opposite her building. The police were thus obliged to do
> something - which meant entering a city that, as noted, had been a
> no-go area for them.
There are no such thing as 'no-go' areas in France, though the Police
are more loath to go to some places than others.
DoD
"John of Aix" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
news:436c112d$2$991$8fcf...@news.wanadoo.fr...
> DoD wrote:
>
>> Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have
>> not been present in that suburb for years.
>
> Absolute complete and utter nonsense.
Maybe he was trying to convey that they have not had the necessary presence
in those areas.
>> The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody,
>> telephoned the police and reported the thieving spree taking place
>> just opposite her building. The police were thus obliged to do
>> something - which meant entering a city that, as noted, had been a
>> no-go area for them.
>
> There are no such thing as 'no-go' areas in France, though the Police are
> more loath to go to some places than others.
Is the rest of the article pretty accurate?
B.T.W. I am responding to you in soc.culture.french because this i.s.p.
doesn't carry alt.france.
Gooserider
"DoD" <the...@ss.mil> wrote in message
news:YDQaf.46434$Tf5....@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio.net...
> same.
>
streets would serve to calm things down. The next elections in France will
be very good for the right wing party.
The Re'ev
>AS THE night falls, the "troubles" start - and the pattern is always the
>same.
>
>Bands of youths in balaclavas start by setting fire to parked cars, break
>shop windows with baseball bats, wreck public telephones and ransack
>cinemas, libraries and schools. When the police arrive on the scene, the
>rioters attack them with stones, knives and baseball bats.
Sounds like nigras back home in the 60s, Doodoo. Remember Newark,
Detroit...
<b'rissed>
docremington
> DoD wrote:
>
> > Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have
> > not been present in that suburb for years.
>
> Absolute complete and utter nonsense.
>
I think so too, there sure have been at least one occupational police
outpost, present on the liberated territory. How's the intifada, bth?
John of Aix
> "John of Aix" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
> news:436c112d$2$991$8fcf...@news.wanadoo.fr...
>> DoD wrote:
>>
>>> Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have
>>> not been present in that suburb for years.
>>
>> Absolute complete and utter nonsense.
>
> Maybe he was trying to convey that they have not had the necessary
> presence in those areas.
Posssibly true, he should have said that then.
>
>>> The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody,
>>> telephoned the police and reported the thieving spree taking place
>>> just opposite her building. The police were thus obliged to do
>>> something - which meant entering a city that, as noted, had been a
>>> no-go area for them.
>>
>> There are no such thing as 'no-go' areas in France, though the
>> Police are more loath to go to some places than others.
>
> Is the rest of the article pretty accurate?
No, it is ridiculously exaggerated.
> B.T.W. I am responding to you in soc.culture.french because this
> i.s.p. doesn't carry alt.france.
I'm on both and scf is where I put the original reply I think
Alex B
Big difference between the US and France situations : those rioting in
the US are fully american citizens who have been there for centuries
and who don't have another country of origin.
In France they are mostly people of African and muslim origin, who've
only been here for about 20-30 years, they may have french papers but
they don't belong here, they'll never integrate. Stupid "Mover" may say
they are "french like me", they are not, it takes more than a mere
passport to be french.
The only solution for them is deportation back to North Africa !
Et abrogeons une fois pour toutes le suicidaire "Droit du Sol" !
Dr. Psy. Priv. Doz. Heinrich Salomon Abraham von Heinrichstein, Den Haag, Holland
> Big difference between the US and France situations : those rioting in
> the US are fully american citizens who have been there for centuries
> and who don't have another country of origin.
>
> In France they are mostly people of African and muslim origin, who've
> only been here for about 20-30 years, they may have french papers but
> they don't belong here, they'll never integrate. Stupid "Mover" may say
> they are "french like me", they are not, it takes more than a mere
> passport to be french.
>
> The only solution for them is deportation back to North Africa !
>
> Et abrogeons une fois pour toutes le suicidaire "Droit du Sol" !
There is no drastic solution available. Unfortunately France has always
been prone to civil wars, riots and upheavals, caused by the
centralistic French government under the "Paris Monarchs": Kings,
Emperors and/or Jacobin's Presidents, which have never enabled
diversity in local self-government: De Gaulle stumbled on his
referendum about "décentralisation".
It seems that the French law and order system is not capable of coping
with today's realities. French authorities should perhaps let
themselves inspired by Anglo-Saxon's "Habeas Corpus" and ask the
British Government & Civil Servants for help and assistance, as the
U.K. seems to have a much better way to manage with racial / cultural
problems, as they had also coped much better with their dominions &
The 5 Elite Schools that have been "manufacturing" all French civil
servants for generations do not teach them the necessary basic culture
of pragmatism, open-mindedness, humbleness and world openness.
Gooserider
"Alex B" <ale...@caramail.com> wrote in message
news:1131185579.9...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> The Re'ev wrote:
>> On Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:45:28 -0600, "DoD" <navy...@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>> >AS THE night falls, the "troubles" start - and the pattern is always the
>> >same.
>> >
>> >Bands of youths in balaclavas start by setting fire to parked cars,
>> >break
>> >shop windows with baseball bats, wreck public telephones and ransack
>> >cinemas, libraries and schools. When the police arrive on the scene, the
>> >rioters attack them with stones, knives and baseball bats.
>>
>> Sounds like nigras back home in the 60s, Doodoo. Remember Newark,
>> Detroit...
>>
>> <b'rissed>
>
> Big difference between the US and France situations : those rioting in
> the US are fully american citizens who have been there for centuries
> and who don't have another country of origin.
Well, partially. US born blacks riot, but foreign born Mexicans and
OTM(other than Mexican) also rioted in LA. The US situation is actually
worse, because blacks have had a long time to become fully functioning
citizens(and lots have). There is a sizable percentage of that population
which hates our society and everything it stands for, hates white people,
and will take any opportunity to burn it down. It's scary.
> In France they are mostly people of African and muslim origin, who've
> only been here for about 20-30 years, they may have french papers but
> they don't belong here, they'll never integrate. Stupid "Mover" may say
> they are "french like me", they are not, it takes more than a mere
> passport to be french.
>
> The only solution for them is deportation back to North Africa !
>
> Et abrogeons une fois pour toutes le suicidaire "Droit du Sol" !
Yep. And we in the states need to start deporting our illegal immigrants as
well. Employers who hire illegals need to face stiff fines and jail time.
Illegals are a huge drain on the educational, health care, AND prison
systems.
John of Aix
> "DoD" <the...@ss.mil> wrote in message
> news:YDQaf.46434$Tf5....@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio.net...
>> AS THE night falls, the "troubles" start - and the pattern is always
>> the same.
>>
> It's time to call in the Foreign Legion. A few hundred dead rioters
> in the streets would serve to calm things down.
No it wouldn't, that is an absolute fact, proved in France and
everywhere else throughout history and you are an utter fool.
John of Aix
Haag, Holland wrote:
>> Et abrogeons une fois pour toutes le suicidaire "Droit du Sol" !
>
> There is no drastic solution available. Unfortunately France has
> always been prone to civil wars, riots and upheavals, caused by the
> centralistic French government under the "Paris Monarchs": Kings,
> Emperors and/or Jacobin's Presidents, which have never enabled
> diversity in local self-government: De Gaulle stumbled on his
> referendum about "décentralisation".
>
> It seems that the French law and order system is not capable of coping
> with today's realities. French authorities should perhaps let
> themselves inspired by Anglo-Saxon's "Habeas Corpus" and ask the
> British Government & Civil Servants for help and assistance, as the
> U.K. seems to have a much better way to manage with racial / cultural
> problems
I do not agree. While the Brtish very rarely turn to the sort of
violence one sees in French demonstrations it does not mean they are
happy with the current situation among the many ethnic groups that now
live there. The 'anti multi-culti' are increasing in an alarming number
I find and on the other side, the ethnic groups, there has been a very
worrying radicalisation in the last few years. I don't mean the outright
lunatics like suicide bombers but the Sikhs on the one hand who manage
to get a play closed because they considered it offended them, there was
a similar case from the Muslims, a book withdrawn IIRC. While all should
be free to observe their faith they should be free to do so only insofar
as it does not encroach on the freedom of others, which the above cases
undoubtedly do. I prefer the French method, religion has no status in
French official life, it is just a personal belief like a belief in a
flat earth, fairies or the man in the moon. It is mentioned nowhere on
any official document and one gets no special treatment because one
believes in this or that god. I believe that "when in Rome do as the
Romans do" and it is up to visitors and immigrants (I am one but a nice
blue-eyed white one) to adapt to their host country not the host country
adapt to them.
I agree though that the UK did manage its dominions and colonies better,
especially when it came to withdrawal. Thye left them in a far better
state than the French or other colonial powers.
John of Aix
> Big difference between the US and France situations : those rioting in
> the US are fully american citizens who have been there for centuries
> and who don't have another country of origin.
>
> In France they are mostly people of African and muslim origin, who've
> only been here for about 20-30 years,
Not in the least true, most of the people living in these areas are
born in France, educated in France, only speak French and are French.
> they may have french papers but
> they don't belong here, they'll never integrate.
The ones I mention do not need to integrate, they are French.
> Stupid "Mover" may
> say they are "french like me", they are not, it takes more than a mere
> passport to be french.
When you are born and educated in country and speak its language you
have a little more than a passport. In fact I doubt if many of them
have a passport, they can't afford to travel abroad much.
> The only solution for them is deportation back to North Africa !
You cannot deport nationals of your country.
> Et abrogeons une fois pour toutes le suicidaire "Droit du Sol" !
It is the law in most civilised countries, and sometimes has been for
centuries, and there is no need to change it.
Nuclear Winter
>> The only solution for them is deportation back to North Africa !
> You cannot deport nationals of your country.
I guess you have never heard of Australia?
It used to be quite common for criminals to be deported there.
ari...@37.com
The riots are simply because of the muslim backwardness.
If the French don't deport those muslim beasts back to their hellholes
France will soon see the rise of the First Muslim Reich!
Good luck to my French buddies. I hope they have the balls they've
always lacked thourout history and get the vermin out.
John of Aix
They have nothing to do with Islam, nothing at all.
John of Aix
I guess you haven't realised that this is the 21st century not the
nineteenth and things are not at all the same. There are no virgin
territories to deport people to for a start and you can't impose them on
sovereign nations.
DoD
> DoD wrote:
>> "John of Aix" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
>> news:436c112d$2$991$8fcf...@news.wanadoo.fr...
>>> DoD wrote:
>>>
>>>> Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have
>>>> not been present in that suburb for years.
>>>
>>> Absolute complete and utter nonsense.
>>
>> Maybe he was trying to convey that they have not had the necessary
>> presence in those areas.
>
> Posssibly true, he should have said that then.
>
>>
>>>> The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody,
>>>> telephoned the police and reported the thieving spree taking place
>>>> just opposite her building. The police were thus obliged to do
>>>> something - which meant entering a city that, as noted, had been a
>>>> no-go area for them.
>>>
>>> There are no such thing as 'no-go' areas in France, though the
>>> Police are more loath to go to some places than others.
>>
>> Is the rest of the article pretty accurate?
>
> No, it is ridiculously exaggerated.
John, in what ways?
Ed
> DoD wrote:
>> "John of Aix" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
>> news:436c112d$2$991$8fcf...@news.wanadoo.fr...
>>> DoD wrote:
>>>
>>>> Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have
>>>> not been present in that suburb for years.
>>>
>>> Absolute complete and utter nonsense.
>>
>> Maybe he was trying to convey that they have not had the necessary
>> presence in those areas.
>
> Posssibly true, he should have said that then.
>
>>
>>>> The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody,
>>>> telephoned the police and reported the thieving spree taking place
>>>> just opposite her building. The police were thus obliged to do
>>>> something - which meant entering a city that, as noted, had been a
>>>> no-go area for them.
>>>
>>> There are no such thing as 'no-go' areas in France, though the
>>> Police are more loath to go to some places than others.
>>
>> Is the rest of the article pretty accurate?
>
> No, it is ridiculously exaggerated.
Is that so? I have seen the story reported on CNN, Fox, and all the other
major American TV news media, and DoD's article seems to be spot on.
TV cameras don't lie.
BrettZell
DoD <the...@ss.mil> wrote:
> balaclavas
What does this word mean ?
Ben Cramer
"Nuclear Winter" <ar...@bad-poo.com> wrote in message
news:yOydnUHncrs...@pipex.net...
Only after Britain ran out of gaol space in what is now the United States
>
>
Ben Cramer
If Israel hadn't persecuted them for so long, there would have been far less
of them seeking to escape the middle east. Quite easy to understand really.
>
>
>
John of Aix
>>> Is the rest of the article pretty accurate?
>>
>> No, it is ridiculously exaggerated.
>
> John, in what ways?
I can't tell you now in detail as it has gone off my server, do you
have a link? I'll look at it again.
Ben Cramer
<ari...@37.com> wrote in message
news:1131202382....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I agree they should be deported back from whence they came. But the whole
cycle will only start again. The ME without the muslim would be a nirvana
for Israel. Israel doesn't give a shit where the muslims go, or who has to
deal with them.
The world is paying a heavy price for the creation of the illegal state of
Israel.
>
Ben Cramer
"Ed" <nes...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:AOqdnb6P7KB...@comcast.com...
>
> "John of Aix" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
> news:436c6a9e$2$27450$8fcf...@news.wanadoo.fr...
>> DoD wrote:
>>> "John of Aix" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
>>> news:436c112d$2$991$8fcf...@news.wanadoo.fr...
>>>> DoD wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have
>>>>> not been present in that suburb for years.
>>>>
>>>> Absolute complete and utter nonsense.
>>>
>>> Maybe he was trying to convey that they have not had the necessary
>>> presence in those areas.
>>
>> Posssibly true, he should have said that then.
>>
>>>
>>>>> The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody,
>>>>> telephoned the police and reported the thieving spree taking place
>>>>> just opposite her building. The police were thus obliged to do
>>>>> something - which meant entering a city that, as noted, had been a
>>>>> no-go area for them.
>>>>
>>>> There are no such thing as 'no-go' areas in France, though the
>>>> Police are more loath to go to some places than others.
>>>
>>> Is the rest of the article pretty accurate?
>>
>> No, it is ridiculously exaggerated.
>
> Is that so? I have seen the story reported on CNN, Fox, and all the other
> major American TV news media, and DoD's article seems to be spot on.
>
> TV cameras don't lie.
But American news services do.
DoD
"BrettZell" <Bret...@frenchfrog.org> wrote in message
news:051120052222022557%Bret...@frenchfrog.org...
Winter headgear kinda like a ski mask.
DoD
Here you go John.
AS THE night falls, the "troubles" start - and the pattern is always the
same.
Bands of youths in balaclavas start by setting fire to parked cars, break
shop windows with baseball bats, wreck public telephones and ransack
cinemas, libraries and schools. When the police arrive on the scene, the
rioters attack them with stones, knives and baseball bats.
The police respond by firing tear-gas grenades and, on occasions, blank
shots in the air. Sometimes the youths fire back - with real bullets.
These scenes are not from the West Bank but from 20 French cities, mostly
close to Paris, that have been plunged into a European version of the
intifada that at the time of writing appears beyond control.
The troubles first began in Clichy-sous-Bois, an underprivileged suburb east
of Paris, a week ago. France's bombastic interior minister, Nicholas
Sarkozy, responded by sending over 400 heavily armed policemen to "impose
the laws of the republic," and promised to crush "the louts and hooligans"
within the day. Within a few days, however, it had dawned on anyone who
wanted to know that this was no "outburst by criminal elements" that could
be handled with a mixture of braggadocio and batons.
By Monday, everyone in Paris was speaking of "an unprecedented crisis." Both
Sarkozy and his boss, Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin, had to cancel
foreign trips to deal with the riots.
How did it all start? The accepted account is that sometime last week, a
group of young boys in Clichy engaged in one of their favorite sports:
stealing parts of parked cars.
Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have not been
present in that suburb for years.
The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody, telephoned
the police and reported the thieving spree taking place just opposite her
building. The police were thus obliged to do something - which meant
entering a city that, as noted, had been a no-go area for them.
Once the police arrived on the scene, the youths - who had been reigning
over Clichy pretty unmolested for years - got really angry. A brief chase
took place in the street, and two of the youths, who were not actually
chased by the police, sought refuge in a cordoned-off area housing a power
pylon. Both were electrocuted.
Once news of their deaths was out, Clichy was all up in arms.
With cries of "God is great," bands of youths armed with whatever they could
get hold of went on a rampage and forced the police to flee.
The French authorities could not allow a band of youths to expel the police
from French territory. So they hit back - sending in Special Forces, known
as the CRS, with armored cars and tough rules of engagement.
Within hours, the original cause of the incidents was forgotten and the
issue jelled around a demand by the representatives of the rioters that the
French police leave the "occupied territories." By midweek, the riots had
spread to three of the provinces neighboring Paris, with a population of 5.5
million.
But who lives in the affected areas? In Clichy itself, more than 80 percent
of the inhabitants are Muslim immigrants or their children, mostly from Arab
and black Africa. In other affected towns, the Muslim immigrant community
accounts for 30 percent to 60 percent of the population. But these are not
the only figures that matter. Average unemployment in the affected areas is
estimated at around 30 percent and, when it comes to young would-be workers,
reaches 60 percent.
In these suburban towns, built in the 1950s in imitation of the Soviet
social housing of the Stalinist era, people live in crammed conditions,
sometimes several generations in a tiny apartment, and see "real French
life" only on television.
The French used to flatter themselves for the success of their policy of
assimilation, which was supposed to turn immigrants from any background into
"proper Frenchmen" within a generation at most.
That policy worked as long as immigrants came to France in drips and drops
and thus could merge into a much larger mainstream. Assimilation, however,
cannot work when in most schools in the affected areas, fewer than 20
percent of the pupils are native French speakers.
France has also lost another powerful mechanism for assimilation: the
obligatory military service abolished in the 1990s.
As the number of immigrants and their descendants increases in a particular
locality, more and more of its native French inhabitants leave for "calmer
places," thus making assimilation still more difficult.
In some areas, it is possible for an immigrant or his descendants to spend a
whole life without ever encountering the need to speak French, let alone
familiarize himself with any aspect of the famous French culture.
The result is often alienation. And that, in turn, gives radical Islamists
an opportunity to propagate their message of religious and cultural
apartheid.
Some are even calling for the areas where Muslims form a majority of the
population to be reorganized on the basis of the "millet" system of the
Ottoman Empire: Each religious community (millet) would enjoy the right to
organize its social, cultural and educational life in accordance with its
religious beliefs.
In parts of France, a de facto millet system is already in place. In these
areas, all women are obliged to wear the standardized Islamist "hijab" while
most men grow their beards to the length prescribed by the sheiks.
The radicals have managed to chase away French shopkeepers selling alcohol
and pork products, forced "places of sin," such as dancing halls, cinemas
and theaters, to close down, and seized control of much of the local
administration.
A reporter who spent last weekend in Clichy and its neighboring towns of
Bondy, Aulnay-sous-Bois and Bobigny heard a single overarching message: The
French authorities should keep out.
"All we demand is to be left alone," said Mouloud Dahmani, one of the local
"emirs" engaged in negotiations to persuade the French to withdraw the
police and allow a committee of sheiks, mostly from the Muslim Brotherhood,
to negotiate an end to the hostilities.
President Jacques Chirac and Premier de Villepin are especially sore because
they had believed that their opposition to the toppling of Saddam Hussein in
2003 would give France a heroic image in the Muslim community.
That illusion has now been shattered - and the Chirac administration,
already passing through a deepening political crisis, appears to be clueless
about how to cope with what the Parisian daily France Soir has called a
"ticking time bomb."
It is now clear that a good portion of France's Muslims not only refuse to
assimilate into "the superior French culture," but firmly believe that Islam
offers the highest forms of life to which all mankind should aspire.
So what is the solution? One solution, offered by Gilles Kepel, an adviser
to Chirac on Islamic affairs, is the creation of "a new Andalusia" in which
Christians and Muslims would live side by side and cooperate to create a new
cultural synthesis.
The problem with Kepel's vision, however, is that it does not address the
important issue of political power. Who will rule this new Andalusia:
Muslims or the largely secularist Frenchmen?
Suddenly, French politics has become worth watching again, even though for
the wrong reasons.
ari...@37.com
showing again your utter ignorance. Israel is one of the few countries
in the world where its people are the descendants of their ancient
inhabitants. Why, Australia can only trace its roots to gangs of
rapists and murderers in britain. I'm sure your ancestors lived among
rats in a jail or two, mate. Think about that when you talk about
countries being illegaly created. Israel is the most legitimate country
in the world. While your ancestors were apes swinging in tree branches
(and stealing bananas from other chimps) mine were prophets in the
Kingdom of Israel
Cheers
Ariel
ari...@37.com
Ben Cramer
<ari...@37.com> wrote in message
news:1131248017....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> oh, so the muslims are invading Europe because of Israel? you're
> showing again your utter ignorance. Israel is one of the few countries
> in the world where its people are the descendants of their ancient
> inhabitants.
Where? Russia?
Why, Australia can only trace its roots to gangs of
> rapists and murderers in britain. I'm sure your ancestors lived among
> rats in a jail or two, mate.
My mob are from Norway, mate. Not a convict among them.
Think about that when you talk about
> countries being illegaly created. Israel is the most legitimate country
> in the world.
Bullshit. It was based on your lot accepting to accede to a non binding UN
resolution. The only one the izzies have accepted, by the way.
While your ancestors were apes swinging in tree branches
> (and stealing bananas from other chimps) mine were prophets in the
> Kingdom of Israel
Never been a kingdom of Israel, and well you know it.
The Re'ev
Prophets? Kingdom of 'Israeel'? LOL.
Your ancestors were primitive, unwashed, semitic savages who practised
genital mutilation of children. Come to think of it, they still are!
UmmaKi...@yahoo.com
Again your single fucking point. At least try to provide some proof
after fifty times. If you can draw yourself away from pole smoking
algerian 12 year olds you might google a little research. Google
instead of gobble, get it? Fucktard.
John of Aix
> "John of Aix" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
> news:436d42bf$1$7831$8fcf...@news.wanadoo.fr...
>> DoD wrote:
>>> "John of Aix" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
>>> news:436c6a9e$2$27450$8fcf...@news.wanadoo.fr...
>>
>>>>> Is the rest of the article pretty accurate?
>>>>
>>>> No, it is ridiculously exaggerated.
>>>
>>> John, in what ways?
>>
>> I can't tell you now in detail as it has gone off my server, do you
>> have a link? I'll look at it again.
>
> Here you go John.
>
> AS THE night falls, the "troubles" start - and the pattern is always
> the same.
>
> Bands of youths in balaclavas start by setting fire to parked cars,
> break shop windows with baseball bats, wreck public telephones and
> ransack cinemas, libraries and schools. When the police arrive on the
> scene, the rioters attack them with stones, knives and baseball bats.
>
> The police respond by firing tear-gas grenades and, on occasions,
> blank shots in the air. Sometimes the youths fire back - with real
> bullets.
ONE (1) bullet
> By Monday, everyone in Paris was speaking of "an unprecedented
> crisis."
I doubt it
> How did it all start? The accepted account is that sometime last
> week, a group of young boys in Clichy engaged in one of their
> favorite sports: stealing parts of parked cars.
>
> Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have
> not been present in that suburb for years.
Nonsense
> The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody,
> telephoned the police and reported the thieving spree taking place
> just opposite her building. The police were thus obliged to do
> something - which meant entering a city that, as noted, had been a
> no-go area for them.
Repeat of nonsense.
> With cries of "God is great,"
Bwahahahaha, did they have Osama bin Laden T-Shirts as well.
> Within hours, the original cause of the incidents was forgotten and
> the issue jelled around a demand by the representatives of the
> rioters that the French police leave the "occupied territories."
Absolute balderdash.
> As the number of immigrants and their descendants increases in a
> particular locality, more and more of its native French inhabitants
> leave for "calmer places," thus making assimilation still more
> difficult.
What is this shit, here the writer is saying that the descendants of
immigrants will always be second class citizens. That a descendant of an
immigrant is somehow not French, cannot fit in, live besides other
peoples. It is the sign of a closet racism which has otherwise been
hidden behind journalistic gloss.
> In some areas, it is possible for an immigrant or his descendants to
> spend a whole life without ever encountering the need to speak
> French, let alone familiarize himself with any aspect of the famous
> French culture.
Absolute nonsense. The children of immigrants, like all children, go to
French schools where they speak the only official language of France,
French, all day and every day. The TV and radio is in French, the signs
in the street are in French, all official documents are in French. It is
absolutely impossible for them, or their parents for that matter, to
avoid French.
So sorry, this article is rubbish in the main and I suspect, as I say,
by a racist though they may not admit it to themselves.
DoD
> DoD wrote:
>> "John of Aix" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
>> news:436d42bf$1$7831$8fcf...@news.wanadoo.fr...
>>> DoD wrote:
>>>> "John of Aix" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
>>>> news:436c6a9e$2$27450$8fcf...@news.wanadoo.fr...
>>>
>>>>>> Is the rest of the article pretty accurate?
>>>>>
>>>>> No, it is ridiculously exaggerated.
>>>>
>>>> John, in what ways?
>>>
>>> I can't tell you now in detail as it has gone off my server, do you
>>> have a link? I'll look at it again.
>>
>> Here you go John.
>>
>> AS THE night falls, the "troubles" start - and the pattern is always
>> the same.
>>
>> Bands of youths in balaclavas start by setting fire to parked cars,
>> break shop windows with baseball bats, wreck public telephones and
>> ransack cinemas, libraries and schools. When the police arrive on the
>> scene, the rioters attack them with stones, knives and baseball bats.
>>
>> The police respond by firing tear-gas grenades and, on occasions,
>> blank shots in the air. Sometimes the youths fire back - with real
>> bullets.
>
> ONE (1) bullet
Are you really saying that a single bullet has been shot?
>> By Monday, everyone in Paris was speaking of "an unprecedented
>> crisis."
>
> I doubt it
Come on John...are you really serious here?
>> How did it all start? The accepted account is that sometime last
>> week, a group of young boys in Clichy engaged in one of their
>> favorite sports: stealing parts of parked cars.
>>
>> Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have
>> not been present in that suburb for years.
>
> Nonsense
Why is it nonsense here?
>> The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody,
>> telephoned the police and reported the thieving spree taking place
>> just opposite her building. The police were thus obliged to do
>> something - which meant entering a city that, as noted, had been a
>> no-go area for them.
>
> Repeat of nonsense.
>
>> With cries of "God is great,"
>
> Bwahahahaha, did they have Osama bin Laden T-Shirts as well.
I am not convicnced that it is a Muslim thing but just a bunch of
disenfranchised youth that are just getting uppity. But you have just
glossed over a bunch of real shit here.
>> Within hours, the original cause of the incidents was forgotten and
>> the issue jelled around a demand by the representatives of the
>> rioters that the French police leave the "occupied territories."
>
> Absolute balderdash.
Fantastic reply.
>> As the number of immigrants and their descendants increases in a
>> particular locality, more and more of its native French inhabitants
>> leave for "calmer places," thus making assimilation still more
>> difficult.
>
> What is this shit, here the writer is saying that the descendants of
> immigrants will always be second class citizens. That a descendant of an
> immigrant is somehow not French, cannot fit in, live besides other
> peoples. It is the sign of a closet racism which has otherwise been hidden
> behind journalistic gloss.
>
>> In some areas, it is possible for an immigrant or his descendants to
>> spend a whole life without ever encountering the need to speak
>> French, let alone familiarize himself with any aspect of the famous
>> French culture.
>
> Absolute nonsense. The children of immigrants, like all children, go to
> French schools where they speak the only official language of France,
> French, all day and every day. The TV and radio is in French, the signs in
> the street are in French, all official documents are in French. It is
> absolutely impossible for them, or their parents for that matter, to avoid
> French.
>
> So sorry, this article is rubbish in the main and I suspect, as I say, by
> a racist though they may not admit it to themselves.
Sorry.... I HOPE, HOPE... that Daniel Bernard gives a real time post about
this. Sorry .... John... you are just not believable...
Daniel... I hope you chime in here.
docremington
As far as I know, Muhammad Bukharruba, aka Boumedienne, rattled in 1974
at the UN, that millions of muslims would go north as warriors of islam
and would conquer it through intensive and extensive fornication. I do
not think Israel had anything to do with that Muhammad or with a former
french real estate in the northern Africa.
Ben Cramer
"docremington" <docrem...@safe-mail.net> wrote in message
news:1131272928.2...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Of course you don't.
>
Gooserider
<ari...@37.com> wrote in message
news:1131248017....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> oh, so the muslims are invading Europe because of Israel? you're
> showing again your utter ignorance. Israel is one of the few countries
> in the world where its people are the descendants of their ancient
> inhabitants.
Only the Sephardim are the original inhabitants of the land, and they are
discriminated by the European Ashkenazi Jews. Talk about IGNORANT.
patriot
Mo Hammed wrote:
> Racists?
AS YOU LIKE REDHEAD IF THE DESTRACTION OF DEVIL IDEOLOGY YOU CALLED
RACISM YOU HAVE THE PROBLEM NOT US!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "DoD" <the...@ss.mil> wrote in message
> news:YDQaf.46434$Tf5....@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio.net...
> > AS THE night falls, the "troubles" start - and the pattern is always the
> > same.
> >
> > Bands of youths in balaclavas start by setting fire to parked cars, break
> > shop windows with baseball bats, wreck public telephones and ransack
> > cinemas, libraries and schools. When the police arrive on the scene, the
> > rioters attack them with stones, knives and baseball bats.
> >
> > The police respond by firing tear-gas grenades and, on occasions, blank
> > shots in the air. Sometimes the youths fire back - with real bullets.
> >
> > These scenes are not from the West Bank but from 20 French cities, mostly
> > close to Paris, that have been plunged into a European version of the
> > intifada that at the time of writing appears beyond control.
> >
> > The troubles first began in Clichy-sous-Bois, an underprivileged suburb
> > east
> > of Paris, a week ago. France's bombastic interior minister, Nicholas
> > Sarkozy, responded by sending over 400 heavily armed policemen to "impose
> > the laws of the republic," and promised to crush "the louts and hooligans"
> > within the day. Within a few days, however, it had dawned on anyone who
> > wanted to know that this was no "outburst by criminal elements" that could
> > be handled with a mixture of braggadocio and batons.
> >
> > By Monday, everyone in Paris was speaking of "an unprecedented crisis."
> > Both
> > Sarkozy and his boss, Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin, had to cancel
> > foreign trips to deal with the riots.
> >
> > How did it all start? The accepted account is that sometime last week, a
> > group of young boys in Clichy engaged in one of their favorite sports:
> > stealing parts of parked cars.
> >
> > Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have not
> > been
> > present in that suburb for years.
> >
> > The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody,
> > telephoned
> > the police and reported the thieving spree taking place just opposite her
> > building. The police were thus obliged to do something - which meant
> > entering a city that, as noted, had been a no-go area for them.
> >
> > Once the police arrived on the scene, the youths - who had been reigning
> > over Clichy pretty unmolested for years - got really angry. A brief chase
> > took place in the street, and two of the youths, who were not actually
> > chased by the police, sought refuge in a cordoned-off area housing a power
> > pylon. Both were electrocuted.
> >
> > Once news of their deaths was out, Clichy was all up in arms.
> >
> > With cries of "God is great," bands of youths armed with whatever they
> > could
> > get hold of went on a rampage and forced the police to flee.
> >
> > The French authorities could not allow a band of youths to expel the
> > police
> > from French territory. So they hit back - sending in Special Forces, known
> > as the CRS, with armored cars and tough rules of engagement.
> >
> > Within hours, the original cause of the incidents was forgotten and the
> > issue jelled around a demand by the representatives of the rioters that
> > the
> > As the number of immigrants and their descendants increases in a
> > particular
> > locality, more and more of its native French inhabitants leave for "calmer
> > places," thus making assimilation still more difficult.
> >
> > In some areas, it is possible for an immigrant or his descendants to spend
> > a
> > whole life without ever encountering the need to speak French, let alone
> > familiarize himself with any aspect of the famous French culture.
> >
John of Aix
> oh, so the muslims are invading Europe because of Israel? you're
> showing again your utter ignorance. Israel is one of the few countries
> in the world where its people are the descendants of their ancient
> inhabitants.
Arrant nonsense. Incredibly so.
John of Aix
> <ari...@37.com> wrote in message
> news:1131202382....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> Too true.
>> The riots are simply because of the muslim backwardness.
>> If the French don't deport those muslim beasts back to their
>> hellholes France will soon see the rise of the First Muslim Reich!
>> Good luck to my French buddies. I hope they have the balls they've
>> always lacked thourout history and get the vermin out.
>
> I agree they should be deported back from whence they came.
They came from France. Illegal immigrants if found are usually deported
and have always been deported. Think before you post and before
thinking, find out the facts of what you intend to post about.
John of Aix
C'est une 'chauffe-tête' tricoté avec un grand ouverture sur le visage,
des sourcils jusqu'en-dessous le levre inférerieur mais fermé partout
ailleurs (sauf le cou). il tient sonnom du Baille de Balaclava pendant
la Guerre de Crimée.
It's a knitted head-covering with a hole for the face going from the
eyebrows to below the bottom lip, closed everywhere else except the
neck. It gets its name from the Battle of Balaclava of the Crimean war.
John of Aix
> John of Aix wrote:
>> ari...@37.com wrote:
>>> Too true.
>>> The riots are simply because of the muslim backwardness.
>>
>> They have nothing to do with Islam, nothing at all.
>
> Again your single fucking point. At least try to provide some proof
> after fifty times.
One cannot prove a negative. Didn't you learn anything at school? I have
never suggested that it did have anything to do with Islam, if it does
that is a positive, a concrete fact and I'm sure you will therefore be
able to prove it won't you. What you won't? Well fancy that.
> If you can draw yourself away from pole smoking
> algerian 12 year olds you might google a little research. Google
> instead of gobble, get it? Fucktard.
Gets up your nose doesn't it sonny to find that all your fucking
prejudices and all your fucking ideas are absolute bollocks? Completely
worthless crap just as you show yourself to be by your stupid posts.
John of Aix
A few more since, but few directly at the police, their cars in fact.
>
> Are you really saying that a single bullet has been shot?
>
>>> By Monday, everyone in Paris was speaking of "an unprecedented
>>> crisis."
>>
>> I doubt it
>
> Come on John...are you really serious here?
Perfectly, remember 1968, far more of a crisis for the government.
>>> How did it all start? The accepted account is that sometime last
>>> week, a group of young boys in Clichy engaged in one of their
>>> favorite sports: stealing parts of parked cars.
>>>
>>> Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have
>>> not been present in that suburb for years.
>>
>> Nonsense
>
> Why is it nonsense here?
Because they are present. perhaps not present in the right way but they
are present alright, that is what a lot of the kids are complaining
about, they have their identity checked for nothing at all five times a
day.
>>> With cries of "God is great,"
>>
>> Bwahahahaha, did they have Osama bin Laden T-Shirts as well.
>
> I am not convicnced that it is a Muslim thing but just a bunch of
> disenfranchised youth that are just getting uppity. But you have just
> glossed over a bunch of real shit here.
That is exactly it, kids getting uppity. Of course there is a
problem, that is undeniabl even if the expression by those complaining
is completely unacceptable, but it is not 'Islamic' as much of the
foreign press and many of those here pretend or believe
>>> Within hours, the original cause of the incidents was forgotten and
>>> the issue jelled around a demand by the representatives of the
>>> rioters that the French police leave the "occupied territories."
>>
>> Absolute balderdash.
>
> Fantastic reply.
The only one possible. The rioters do not have 'representatives',
they're rioters remember. Who writes this crap?
>>> In some areas, it is possible for an immigrant or his descendants to
>>> spend a whole life without ever encountering the need to speak
>>> French, let alone familiarize himself with any aspect of the famous
>>> French culture.
>>
>> Absolute nonsense. The children of immigrants, like all children, go
>> to French schools where they speak the only official language of
>> France, French, all day and every day. The TV and radio is in
>> French, the signs in the street are in French, all official
>> documents are in French. It is absolutely impossible for them, or
>> their parents for that matter, to avoid French.
>>
>> So sorry, this article is rubbish in the main and I suspect, as I
>> say, by a racist though they may not admit it to themselves.
>
> Sorry.... I HOPE, HOPE... that Daniel Bernard gives a real time post
> about this. Sorry .... John... you are just not believable...
Remain in your ignorance then.
hoo...@aol.com
jackasses piss and moan constantly about the French you claim you dont care
about. They never talk about you you are beneath them.
Ben Cramer
<hoo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:dMFbf.14403$8K4....@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> Why are Americans so obcessd with a Country the call irrelvant.
Because they can.
Gooserider
> fucking jackasses piss and moan constantly about the French you claim you
> dont care about. They never talk about you you are beneath them.
which has contributed so much to the world., destroy itself with foolish
immigration policies. As goes France, so goes the rest of Europe.
Norma
"Daniel Bernard" <fifthh...@the.apocalypse> wrote in message
news:r3gum1lv8qbm12r64...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 10:12:25 GMT, <hoo...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>Why are Americans so obcessd with a Country the call irrelvant.
>
>
> In this case American interest in the riots (as seen by the amount of
> posts made by Americans into the French forums) looks to be move
> motivated by kicking a nation when it is down, though some of them are
> dressing it up as false concern.
>
>> you fucking
>>jackasses piss and moan constantly about the French you claim you dont
>>care
>>about. They never talk about you you are beneath them.
>>
You make that sound so "distasteful", Daniel.
> --
> amicalement,
>
> Daniel
Norma
"Daniel Bernard" <b...@bad.one> wrote in message
news:s92um1lhqk9a6q173...@4ax.com...
> On 5 Nov 2005 02:13:00 -0800, "Alex B" <ale...@caramail.com> wrote:
>
>>Big difference between the US and France situations : those rioting in
>>the US are fully american citizens who have been there for centuries
>>and who don't have another country of origin.
>>
> So why are they called African American? Also, if they had been in
> America for so long, should they not be better integrated? Why then do
> they still reside in enclaves? Is it not more a case that emigration
> will always lead to such situations, as migrants move in, the locals
> depart and more migrants move in to take their place?
There are many sociological reasons for that , Daniel. Too bad you can't
take my Transcultural Issues course. You would find a lot about many groups
of people.
Norma
>
>>In France they are mostly people of African and muslim origin, who've
>>only been here for about 20-30 years, they may have french papers but
>>they don't belong here, they'll never integrate. Stupid "Mover" may say
>>they are "french like me", they are not, it takes more than a mere
>>passport to be french.
>>
>>The only solution for them is deportation back to North Africa !
>>
> Ah oui. Le gouvernement peut rouvrir Drancy :-|
> --
> amicalement,
>
> Daniel
Norma
"Daniel Bernard" <fifthh...@the.apocalypse> wrote in message
> On Mon, 7 Nov 2005 06:26:12 -0600, "Norma" <njb...@charter.net> wrote:
>
>>There are many sociological reasons for that , Daniel. Too bad you can't
>>take my Transcultural Issues course. You would find a lot about many
>>groups
>>of people.
>
> it is too simple to blame the rioting in France purely on the failure
> of Muslim immigrants to integrate.
>
> See my post titled "No intifada, no cause, just poor kids defending
> their territory" for a more rounded view of the currert problem.
> --
> amicalement,
>
> Daniel
I was speaking about the lack of assimilation of the African Americans (vs
the African Immigrants) that you were speaking about within our population.
DoD
"Daniel Bernard" <b...@bad.one> wrote in message
> On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 09:16:50 GMT, "DoD" <the...@ss.mil> wrote:
>
> Ok. Let me take a look at your article and repost it here for
> analysis.
>
> >AS THE night falls, the "troubles" start - and the pattern is always the
same.
>
> >Bands of youths in balaclavas start by setting fire to parked cars, break
shop
> > windows with baseball bats, wreck public telephones and ransack cinemas,
> >libraries and schools. When the police arrive on the scene, the rioters
attack
> >them with stones, knives and baseball bats.
>
> >The police respond by firing tear-gas grenades and, on occasions,
> >blank shots in the air. Sometimes the youths fire back - with real
bullets.
>
> >close to Paris, that have been plunged into a European version of the
intifada
> >that at the time of writing appears beyond control.
>
> bit of knowledge would not equate the two situations. Actually
> bringing up the intifada so soon into the article makes me question
> not only the political understanding of the author but their political
> agenda.
It's a conservative agenda, of course, but just for the record the author is
a French Muslim.
> >The troubles first began in Clichy-sous-Bois, an underprivileged suburb
east of Paris,
> >a week ago. France's bombastic interior minister, Nicholas Sarkozy,
responded by
> >sending over 400 heavily armed policemen to "impose the laws of the
republic,"
> >and promised to crush "the louts and hooligans" within the day. Within a
few days,
> > however, it had dawned on anyone who wanted to know that this was no
> >"outburst by criminal elements" that could be handled with a mixture of
braggadocio and batons.
>
> >By Monday, everyone in Paris was speaking of "an unprecedented crisis."
Both Sarkozy
> >and his boss, Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin, had to cancel foreign
trips to deal with the riots.
>
> And that is a problem? Actually that is the standard political reply,
> unless someone believes sitting in a classroom reading "My Pet Goat"
> to be the standard politicians reply to a domestic situation.
No need to take extra stabs in the other direction.
> >How did it all start? The accepted account is that sometime last week,
> > a group of young boys in Clichy engaged in one of their favorite
> >sports: stealing parts of parked cars.
>
> >Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have
> >not been present in that suburb for years.
>
> Ohhhhkay. A strange observation.
Why is it not common for police to not go into bad neighborhoods over there?
It is common here.
> >The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody,
telephoned the
> > police and reported the thieving spree taking place just opposite her
building.
> >The police were thus obliged to do something - which meant entering a
city that,
> >as noted, had been a no-go area for them.
>
> Interesting that the author describes someone doing their civic duty
> as a busybody. I believe I see his agenda here. it is to pull away
> from the criminal element behind the initial riots.
So far I am not getting that from him.
> >Once the police arrived on the scene, the youths - who had been reigning
over Clichy
> >pretty unmolested for years - got really angry. A brief chase took place
in the street,
> >and two of the youths, who were not actually chased by the police, sought
refuge in
> >a cordoned-off area housing a power pylon. Both were electrocuted.
>
> Two of them? it would help if this writer actually knew the facts
> before penning the article.
Were there more people being chased?
> >Once news of their deaths was out, Clichy was all up in arms.
>
> >With cries of "God is great," bands of youths armed with whatever they
> >could get hold of went on a rampage and forced the police to flee.
>
> >The French authorities could not allow a band of youths to expel the
police from French
> > territory. So they hit back - sending in Special Forces, known as the
CRS, with
> >armored cars and tough rules of engagement.
>
> >Within hours, the original cause of the incidents was forgotten and the
issue jelled
> >around a demand by the representatives of the rioters that the French
police leave the
> >"occupied territories." By midweek, the riots had spread to three of the
provinces
> > neighboring Paris, with a population of 5.5 million.
>
> Occupied territories? Strange but I have not heard that phrase
> mentioned before in relation to the riots. Is someone trying to make
> more out of these incidents that there is?
Maybe, but it would seem to me, that since the time of the article was
written, the riots have grown legs and spread into Paris.
> >But who lives in the affected areas? In Clichy itself, more than 80
percent of the
> > inhabitants are Muslim immigrants or their children, mostly from Arab
and black Africa.
> >In other affected towns, the Muslim immigrant community accounts for 30
percent to
> > 60 percent of the population. But these are not the only figures that
matter. Average
> >unemployment in the affected areas is estimated at around 30 percent and,
> >when it comes to young would-be workers, reaches 60 percent.
>
> >In these suburban towns, built in the 1950s in imitation of the Soviet
> >social housing of the Stalinist era, people live in crammed conditions,
> >sometimes several generations in a tiny apartment, and see "real French
life"
> > only on television.
>
> Hey, why did the author not go the whole hog and say they only view
> African or Arabic television on stolen satellite dishes?
Was he trying to say that? Anyways, are these suburbs not slums?
> >The French used to flatter themselves for the success of their policy of
assimilation,
> > which was supposed to turn immigrants from any background into "proper
Frenchmen"
> > within a generation at most.
>
> >That policy worked as long as immigrants came to France in drips and
drops and thus
> > could merge into a much larger mainstream. Assimilation, however, cannot
work when
> > in most schools in the affected areas, fewer than 20 percent of the
pupils are native French speakers.
>
> >France has also lost another powerful mechanism for assimilation: the
> >obligatory military service abolished in the 1990s.
>
> >As the number of immigrants and their descendants increases in a
particular locality,
> >more and more of its native French inhabitants leave for "calmer places,"
> > thus making assimilation still more difficult.
>
> >In some areas, it is possible for an immigrant or his descendants to
spend a whole
> >life without ever encountering the need to speak French, let alone
familiarize himself
> >with any aspect of the famous French culture.
>
> What? Good Lord!
I find that to be totally believable. I will tell you why below.
> >The result is often alienation. And that, in turn, gives radical
Islamists an
> >opportunity to propagate their message of religious and cultural
apartheid.
>
> Ah no mention of the basic criminality and the gangs. Everything that
> goes wrong has to be the work of radical Islam.
I don't think that is the case either.
> >Some are even calling for the areas where Muslims form a majority of the
population
> >to be reorganized on the basis of the "millet" system of the Ottoman
Empire: Each
> >religious community (millet) would enjoy the right to organize its
social, cultural and
> > educational life in accordance with its religious beliefs.
>
> I would love to see documented proof of this.
>
> >In parts of France, a de facto millet system is already in place. In
these areas,
> >all women are obliged to wear the standardized Islamist "hijab" while
most men grow
> >heir beards to the length prescribed by the sheiks.
>
> See my answer above.
> In a nutshell that article was factually incorrect, poorly written and
> in many cases quite laughable. A lot of what I read in that article is
> either exaggeration or pure fantasy. Yes the unemployment rate in
> those communities is higher but to claim that it is possible for an
> immigrant to spend their entire lives without ever encountering the
> need to speak French? That is pure bullshit.
>
> Tying this in to the Iraq war is also fanciful. Yes sure most of the
> rioters are originally from Islamic countries but their gripe is
> social and their actions are motivated by criminality, not by Islam.
That is why I am interested in this. I am curious to see how France responds
to this whole dilemma. I see quite a few parallels with our problem of
Mexican immigration here in the states. I find it totally believeable that
people in France could be there for a lifetime and not assimilate into
'French life', whatever that maybe. After all, I know that happens here. We
have generations of people that live here and not have a clue of what life
is like on the outside of certain areas, one here in this city is called
Argentine. The question I am wondering is how does government deal with
these problems. How do they get the youth involved in assimilating into a
country so that they don't go off the deep end and start rioting as they are
doing there or joing up with the vatos locos as they do here.
> Local emirs? Who is to say that the person he claimed was interviewed
> was a self-styled local emir, a car thief, a drug dealer or a 15 year
> old kid mouthing off for the press? Just because someone claims to be
> a "local emir" does not actually make it true. He could be a "local
> emir" to one journalist and a brain surgeon to another.
>
> What we are seeing as a lot of idle speculation coming from people who
> have no idea as to the political and social situation. People, the
> author of the article you posted for example, are using the situation
> to push their agenda.
>
> A poster in this thread said "TV cameras do not lie". Bullshit. They
> bloody well can lie and they can also give an uninformed and slanted
> side to any story. A guy filmed at night throwing a brick could
> represent anything. It comes down to how he is portrayed in the
> report. Was the looting and mayhem in New Orleans a response to the
> Bush governments failure to provide aid after the flood, a response to
> poor social conditions of the black population or just people
> resorting to criminality at the first opportunity?
> --
> amicalement,
>
> Daniel
patriot
John of Aix wrote:
> ari...@37.com wrote:
> > Too true.
> > The riots are simply because of the muslim backwardness.
>
> They have nothing to do with Islam, nothing at all.
IN ANYWAY THE ARABS USE THE ISLAM AS THE EXCUSE TO PROPOGATE THE
VIOLENCE! THEY ARE KNOWN TO HAVE THE CULTURE OF DEATH! I FEEL SORROW
FOR THE FRENCH!
Alex B
John of Aix wrote :
C'est ça, John, accroche toi à ton vieux catéchisme républicain que
tu récites depuis des années comme un robot sans dévier d'une ligne,
"ils sont tous français comme toi et moi, bla bla bla !"
Profite-en bien car il n'en a plus pour longtemps avec tout ce qui se
passe !
Les Français voient bien que ces "jeunes" ont peut être des papiers
français, mais qu'ils ne le sont évidemment pas !!!
Aucun Français, même le pire des voyous, ne s'attaquerait à des
écoles, à des bus avec des gens dedans, aux pompiers, et tu le sais
très bien espèce de collabo hypocrite gauchiste !!!!
Ce sont des barbares et les gens comme toi sont leurs complices !!!
Un jour il faudra rendre des comptes, rappelle toi de 1945 !!!
> Alex B wrote:
>
> > Big difference between the US and France situations : those rioting in
> > the US are fully american citizens who have been there for centuries
> > and who don't have another country of origin.
> >
> > In France they are mostly people of African and muslim origin, who've
> > only been here for about 20-30 years,
>
> Not in the least true, most of the people living in these areas are
> born in France, educated in France, only speak French and are French.
>
> > they may have french papers but
> > they don't belong here, they'll never integrate.
>
> The ones I mention do not need to integrate, they are French.
>
> > Stupid "Mover" may
> > say they are "french like me", they are not, it takes more than a mere
> > passport to be french.
>
> When you are born and educated in country and speak its language you
> have a little more than a passport. In fact I doubt if many of them
> have a passport, they can't afford to travel abroad much.
>
> > The only solution for them is deportation back to North Africa !
>
> You cannot deport nationals of your country.
>
> > Et abrogeons une fois pour toutes le suicidaire "Droit du Sol" !
>
> It is the law in most civilised countries, and sometimes has been for
> centuries, and there is no need to change it.
Defendario
> Did I?
Not in my opinion.
> Nah I'm just setting the poster straight. I don't see there is
> anything distasteful in that and it wasn't meant to sound distasteful.
Set Hoover straight? LOL! For him it is never straight, always forward.
;-)
TY for your intelligent & informed analysis of the posted article. I am
glad that you took the time to do so, from your position of native
authority. The points you made seemed obvious, but it was not my place
to say.
> --
> amicalement,
>
> Daniel
>
Ben Cramer
"Norma" <njb...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:4IHbf.2896$Cw4....@fe03.lga...
Well done, wasn't it?
Ben Cramer
Too bad you can't
> take my Transcultural Issues course. You would find a lot about many
> groups of people.
Is that all about conversion?
DoD
> >Why is it not common for police to not go into bad neighborhoods over
there?
> >It is common here.
> >
>
> How can Clichy-sous-Bois on the one hand be a no-go area for police
> when on the other hand the catalyst for the riots was because police
> were stopping and searching people and some kids ran away rather than
> be searched?
>
> Do you not see the paradox?
Yes,
> >> >The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody,
> >telephoned the
> >> > police and reported the thieving spree taking place just opposite her
> >building.
> >> >The police were thus obliged to do something - which meant entering a
> >city that,
> >> >as noted, had been a no-go area for them.
> >>
> >> Interesting that the author describes someone doing their civic duty
> >> as a busybody. I believe I see his agenda here. it is to pull away
> >> from the criminal element behind the initial riots.
> >
> >So far I am not getting that from him.
> >
> Well, so far has he even mentioned the criminal element of the riots?
> No. His first thing was to try to append it to the Palestinian
> Uprising.
> >> >Once the police arrived on the scene, the youths - who had been
reigning
> >over Clichy
> >> >pretty unmolested for years - got really angry. A brief chase took
place
> >in the street,
> >> >and two of the youths, who were not actually chased by the police,
sought
> >refuge in
> >> >a cordoned-off area housing a power pylon. Both were electrocuted.
> >>
> >> Two of them? it would help if this writer actually knew the facts
> >> before penning the article.
> >
> >Were there more people being chased?
> >
> Yes. I know it is a small point but if the author cannot get something
> as basic as that correct, what hope is there that the rest of his
> article will be based on facts?
No, not really a small point, but just for my own reference, how did this
all start.... i.e. how many people were being chased and how many got
electocuted?
> >> >Once news of their deaths was out, Clichy was all up in arms.
> >>
> >> >With cries of "God is great," bands of youths armed with whatever they
> >> >could get hold of went on a rampage and forced the police to flee.
> >>
> >> >The French authorities could not allow a band of youths to expel the
> >police from French
> >> > territory. So they hit back - sending in Special Forces, known as the
> >CRS, with
> >> >armored cars and tough rules of engagement.
> >>
> >> >Within hours, the original cause of the incidents was forgotten and
the
> >issue jelled
> >> >around a demand by the representatives of the rioters that the French
> >police leave the
> >> >"occupied territories." By midweek, the riots had spread to three of
the
> >provinces
> >> > neighboring Paris, with a population of 5.5 million.
> >>
> >> Occupied territories? Strange but I have not heard that phrase
> >> mentioned before in relation to the riots. Is someone trying to make
> >> more out of these incidents that there is?
> >
> >Maybe, but it would seem to me, that since the time of the article was
> >written, the riots have grown legs and spread into Paris.
> >
> Opportunity knocks and temptation opens the door and still, what would
> the riots spreading have to do with the term Occupied Territories?
That is a funny way of putting it Daniel. What do you mean by opportunity
knocks? What do you think the goal of these rioters are?
Now I have read that it is around 300 cities. That seems to be an aweful
lot. It surely can't be what I am thinking of as a city, ie. Dallas, Miami,
Philidelphia. Are they refering to maybe 300 suburb type areas? I don't
know, so that is why I am asking.
> >> >But who lives in the affected areas? In Clichy itself, more than 80
> >percent of the
> >> > inhabitants are Muslim immigrants or their children, mostly from Arab
> >and black Africa.
> >> >In other affected towns, the Muslim immigrant community accounts for
30
> >percent to
> >> > 60 percent of the population. But these are not the only figures that
> >matter. Average
> >> >unemployment in the affected areas is estimated at around 30 percent
and,
> >> >when it comes to young would-be workers, reaches 60 percent.
> >>
> >> >In these suburban towns, built in the 1950s in imitation of the Soviet
> >> >social housing of the Stalinist era, people live in crammed
conditions,
> >> >sometimes several generations in a tiny apartment, and see "real
French
> >life"
> >> > only on television.
> >>
> >> Hey, why did the author not go the whole hog and say they only view
> >> African or Arabic television on stolen satellite dishes?
> >
> >Was he trying to say that?
>
> He might as well have as so much of what I have read in this article
> has been speculation or misinformation.
> See below for my answer.
>
> >> >The result is often alienation. And that, in turn, gives radical
> >Islamists an
> >> >opportunity to propagate their message of religious and cultural
> >apartheid.
> >>
> >> Ah no mention of the basic criminality and the gangs. Everything that
> >> goes wrong has to be the work of radical Islam.
> >
> >I don't think that is the case either.
> >
> Exactly but why then does everyone focus on the so-called Islamic
> element to the riots?
Maybe it has something to do with them yelling Allah Akbar. But from what I
have read, the Islamic leaders have been trying to calm them down. So that
is why I am not taking too much stock in everyone saying this is an Islamic
thing.... just yet.
> <snipped>>
> >> In a nutshell that article was factually incorrect, poorly written and
> >> in many cases quite laughable. A lot of what I read in that article is
> >> either exaggeration or pure fantasy. Yes the unemployment rate in
> >> those communities is higher but to claim that it is possible for an
> >> immigrant to spend their entire lives without ever encountering the
> >> need to speak French? That is pure bullshit.
> >>
> >> Tying this in to the Iraq war is also fanciful. Yes sure most of the
> >> rioters are originally from Islamic countries but their gripe is
> >> social and their actions are motivated by criminality, not by Islam.
> >
> >That is why I am interested in this. I am curious to see how France
responds
> >to this whole dilemma. I see quite a few parallels with our problem of
> >Mexican immigration here in the states. I find it totally believeable
that
> >people in France could be there for a lifetime and not assimilate into
> >'French life', whatever that maybe.
>
> Not assimilate and not having the need to ever meet someone speaking
> French are two separate things.
Huh?
> What language do you think the police who were chasing the boys speak?
> What about when people need information about social security? You
> take a look at their web site and it is not in Algerian or Moroccan.
What website?
> How about schools and colleges? Hospitals? Public transport? Identify
> papers, passports and other official documents?
Daniel, one can get by without speaking the English language here and live
an actually decent life, going to hospitals and getting drivers liscenses.
Sure you are exposed to English, learn a few catch phrases, but not speak
the language or assimilate..
> > After all, I know that happens here. We
> >have generations of people that live here and not have a clue of what
life
> >is like on the outside of certain areas, one here in this city is called
> >Argentine.
>
> And these people never in their lives encounter someone who speaks
> American English or never are in a situation where they are exposed to
> it, which is the same claim the author is making about these
> immigrants to France.
See what I wrote above.
> >The question I am wondering is how does government deal with
> >these problems. How do they get the youth involved in assimilating into a
> >country so that they don't go off the deep end and start rioting as they
are
> >doing there or joing up with the vatos locos as they do here.
> >
> Education.
Ahh, and I would agree with you 100 percent. But you can't force education
on someone. So the question becomes how do you educate these people?
Some columnist was saying this has to do with the French economy being in
the dumpers and no jobs... I don't know about that, but it would seem fairer
to say that there might not be jobs in those particular areas. Same as the
impoverished areas over here. That is a problem that both countries seem to
face.
DoD
> And these people never in their lives encounter someone who speaks
> American English or never are in a situation where they are exposed to
> it, which is the same claim the author is making about these
> immigrants to France.
The cool Dutch dude off of the A.R.I. forum, AKB, was telling me one time
that the Netherlands have an immigration policy of, you have to watch videos
of Dutch life and learn about it and then you have to take a language test
before you can migrate there. Does France to your knowledge has similar
policies?
Defendario
> On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 19:12:34 -0500, Defendario
> <Defen...@netscape.com> wrote:
>
>
>>TY for your intelligent & informed analysis of the posted article. I am
>>glad that you took the time to do so, from your position of native
>>authority. The points you made seemed obvious, but it was not my place
>>to say.
>>
>>>--
>
>
> cannot hope to hold much water later on.
>
I found the article to be written by an obvious anti-islam bigot, and
slanted heavily toward the goal of discrediting Muslims everywhere. It
was yellow journalism, plain & simple.
> Here is a better article about the situation.
>
8-) TY
> No intifada, no cause, just poor kids defending their territory
> By John Lichfield
>
> Published: 07 November 2005
>
> Is this France's intifada? Do the riots have wider significance for
> the West?
>
> Talk of an intifada is absurdly misleading. Firstly, the rioters are
> far from being all Muslim (although more than half are from Islamic
> backgrounds). Second, they have no sense of political or religious
> identity and no political demands. Their allegiance is to their
> quartier and their gang. Their main demand, so far as can be
> established, is to be left alone by police and the Interior Minister,
> Nicolas Sark-ozy, to continue with their life of low-level violence
> and drugs trading. The wider significance is therefore not
> politico-religious but a warning of what happens if problems of
> deprivation and violence are allowed to fester.
>
The situation therefore is more akin to the LA riots or the Miami riots
(anti-authority by hooligans) rather than religious/ethnic hate (low
level warfare) of the anti-occupation intifadeh.
> Who are the rioters? How valid are their grievances?
>
> Judging by the youths who have been arrested, and by comments by
> social workers and "big brothers" - older, more responsible young
> people - the rioters are almost exclusively kids involved in permanent
> gang violence, theft and drug dealing.
>
Hooligans, IOW
> They are mostly aged 17-22 with some as young as 10. Depending on the
> district, maybe half of the rioters may be second or third generation.
> French-born young people of Arab descent. Maybe 30 or 40 per cent are
> black, often from families which have migrated to France more
> recently, legally or illegally. The remainder are local French
> youngsters or from eastern or southern European immigrant families.
>
Poor & disenfranchised, not necessarily Muslim or immigrant.
> Their immediate grievance is a threat by M. Sarkozy to "clean out" the
> suburban gangs as "scum". Many residents, of all races, in the
> banlieus would agree with M. Sarkozy's sentiments, but not his
> inflammatory language.
>
The hooligans are responding to a challenge/threat with violence. That
is easy to understand.
> Such an approach fails to grapple with the question of how these kids
> came to be so viciously asocial in the first place. They tend to be
> from troubled or broken homes or to be willing educational failures in
> the often chaotic school system of the poor suburbs.
>
> Are they as well organised as M. Sarkozy suggests?
>
> M. Sarkozy has spoken darkly of organisation of the riots by drugs
> overlords or Islamist radicals. His own senior police officers, and
> social workers dismiss this as luridly unrealistic. The gangs from
> different areas detest, and fight, one another. But there is evidence
> of an organised, and tactical, approach in each district, with leaders
> directing groups by texts.
>
Criminal elements here in the states do the same thing. Not a new thing
at all. A threat by a public official to "clean out" blacks in Detroit
or Latinos in LA would incite violence in those neighborhoods too.
Neither group is predominantly Muslim (not counting Nation of Islam).
> How dangerous is it to travel to Paris?
>
> The burning of 32 cars in Paris on Saturday night was a disturbing
> development. If the suburban rioters were to invade Paris en masse,
> the potential for bloodshed is obvious. Police believe this is
> unlikely. The gangs like to operate on their own turf or invade the
> territory of nearby gangs. They feel too exposed in Paris. That, at
> least, is the theory.
>
We saw worse after the Tigers victory in '84. Devils Night (30 Oct)
sees hundreds of arsons yearly. Who questions the safety of travel to
Detroit?
> Has the government made things worse? What could authorities have
> done?
>
> The biggest mistake was M. Sarkozy's threatening language, which was
> taken by the gangs as a challenge. Once two or three districts had had
> their night in the firelight, and on the news, every other quartier
> wanted to prove it could be just as violent. Now it is the turn of
> marginalised kids in suburban towns to have a go.
>
Right. France is only the size of Texas. It's like one big neighborhood.
> M. Sarkozy and Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin seemed to use the
> crisis as another theatre for their personal joust before the 2007
> presidential election. A more considered and apologetic approach after
> the initial two deaths may have calmed tempers.
>
Indeed. That is the lesson to be learned.
> What should be done to stop this happening again?
>
> M. de Villepin will announce next week a programme of infastructure
> investment and job-creation schemes in 750 poor quartiers. This will
> be a start. It would also help to end the undeclared colour bar in
> French society which keeps brown and black faces off mainstream
> television, out of politics and even some public sector jobs. How many
> black and brown railwaymen are there in France? Not many. The key
> problem, however, is the failure of schools to grapple with the
> descent of a larger section of suburban kids, generation by
> generation, into asocial violence and nihilism. Union influence means
> the youngest and least experienced teachers often end up in the
> toughest class-rooms.
>
Sounds like Affirmative Action. It could work, but the road ahead may
be rocky. Patience and understanding will be essential.
> When and how will the riots end?
>
> In tears or in rain. It is a miracle no one has died since the first
> two boys. A tragedy might bring the kids to their senses. Or it might
> not. Police, meanwhile, have been praying for a downpour, which has
> usually ended outbreaks in the past. The forecast for this week is
> fine and dry all over France.
Shades of Roy Batty of Blade Runner fame. When the riots end, will a
dove take flight? A Harrison Ford voice-over?
;D
> --
> amicalement,
>
> Daniel
>
Ben Cramer
"DoD" <the...@ss.mil> wrote in message
news:CJ4cf.47876$Tf5....@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio.net...
> <snip>
>> >Why is it not common for police to not go into bad neighborhoods over
> there?
>> >It is common here.
>> >
>> Total no-go areas where the police have not patrolled in years?
>>
>> How can Clichy-sous-Bois on the one hand be a no-go area for police
>> when on the other hand the catalyst for the riots was because police
>> were stopping and searching people and some kids ran away rather than
>> be searched?
>>
>> Do you not see the paradox?
>
> Yes,
Liar. You have no idea what a paradox is.
LordAvalon
Saying "TV cameras don't lie" is the most stupid comment I heard in the
media era we live in.
This is the basic teaching of even the worst second rate journalist
school that a picture or scene
can be edited, commented, slowed down, illustrated with music!
The there is the context, I remember a picture used to illustrate
torture in Algeria. A man was
seen the mouth slightly opened in a dark place, the head projected
backward. Actually it was
a reframing of a picture of a party where the main character was
dancing...
DoD
"Daniel Bernard" <fifthh...@the.apocalypse> wrote in message
> On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 10:52:48 -0600, "DoD" <the...@ss.mil> wrote:
>
> (If you can get a copy of this film, it gives a good insight into the
> suburbs better than anything I can say even down to the ethnic make-up
> of the three main characters in relation to the mix of the people now
> rioting)
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/films/2004/08/04/la_haine_2004_review.shtml
> http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0tmc/contemp1/lahaine.htm
This looks like it would be an interesting movie even if none of this stuff
was going on. Might be hard to find here, but I know two places that have a
decent chance of having it.
> Further reading on the subject.
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,11882,1637188,00.html
This first one made some really good points, I thought.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,11882,1637316,00.html
This one was ok, but it to me pointed out just how crappy politicians are
everywhere and not just here.
> An interesting article that again explains who is rioting.
I read that one already and it was interesting. I do believe that some these
kids are also being manipulated by radical clerics even with all the other
factors going on. And I still think that is dangerous and a bit arrogant on
the French government not to address that.
<article snip>
hoo...@aol.com
"Gooserider" <goose...@mousepotato.com> wrote in message
news:cWFbf.245568$p_1....@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
most of you are glad. You people dont know history form your assholes.
hoo...@aol.com
"Daniel Bernard" <fifthh...@the.apocalypse> wrote in message
>
>
> In this case American interest in the riots (as seen by the amount of
> posts made by Americans into the French forums) looks to be move
> motivated by kicking a nation when it is down, though some of them are
> dressing it up as false concern.
>
>>jackasses piss and moan constantly about the French you claim you dont
>>care
>>about. They never talk about you you are beneath them.
>>
> amicalement,
>
> Daniel
You speak english as a First language that maakes you Either American or
part of the Commonwealth. Lately there is no real differnce between the two
other then the slang you use.
DoD
"Daniel Bernard" <b...@bad.one> wrote in message
> On Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:35:51 -0600, "DoD" <the...@ss.mil> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Daniel Bernard" <fifthh...@the.apocalypse> wrote in message
>>news:2eh3n1ppq6onl5pdf...@4ax.com...
>>> On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 10:52:48 -0600, "DoD" <the...@ss.mil> wrote:
>>>
>>> (If you can get a copy of this film, it gives a good insight into the
>>> suburbs better than anything I can say even down to the ethnic make-up
>>> of the three main characters in relation to the mix of the people now
>>> rioting)
>>>
>>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/films/2004/08/04/la_haine_2004_review.shtml
>>> http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0tmc/contemp1/lahaine.htm
>>
>>This looks like it would be an interesting movie even if none of this
>>stuff
>>was going on. Might be hard to find here, but I know two places that have
>>a
>>decent chance of having it.
>>
I will try to find it in the video stores or maybe try to request and
download it off the French divx newsgroup first. I hate buying from Ebay.
> You are posting a lot about the situation but it is either from
> uninformed articles or is slanted.
Probably more slanted. I am conservative you know. After all, my
misconception of you came from all this. I took our political differences as
you being a racist. I don't think that anymore, and I can handle talking to
someone that slants liberal without blowing up.
>You seem to agree with a lot of it
> as well, possibly because it pushes an anti-Muslim line.
You see that is the big misconception. I am NOT anti-Muslim. I have a high
tolerance for everyone. What I am against is people that come to a place and
don't assimilate like everyone else. You absolutely can keep your identity
and heritage as long as you are a good citizen.
Just like me wanting to close our borders. Liberals would call me a racist,
but if that were true, why would I have a sister that is Mexican and it
doesn't bother me in the least and I am glad that my neice is going to marry
another one this July? Why? I don't care about skin color, they are both
cool dudes. I just don't see why the laws of this country should be
trampled. It is not a hard concept.
/rant
You would
> gain a better understanding of the "banlieues" by watching La Haine
> then you will from reading Frontpage.
>
>>> Further reading on the subject.
>>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,11882,1637188,00.html
>>
>>This first one made some really good points, I thought.
>>
>>http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,11882,1637316,00.html
>>
>>This one was ok, but it to me pointed out just how crappy politicians are
>>everywhere and not just here.
>>
> Which is the primary cause of the problem. Job creation and economic
> stimulus comes from the government and if it is not trickling down to
> the people who need it, then where does the blame actually lie?
I know, I know... but will France ever get decent politicians? It looks grim
for us here.
>>> An interesting article that again explains who is rioting.
>>
>>I read that one already and it was interesting. I do believe that some
>>these
>>kids are also being manipulated by radical clerics even with all the other
>>factors going on. And I still think that is dangerous and a bit arrogant
>>on
>>the French government not to address that.
>>
> Not addressing it? You are coming into that situation blind, which is
> understandable because you do not follow French news.
No, admittedly not.
> The government have been deporting unregistered and unlicensed Imams,
> the ones who tend to preach radical Islam, for the last few years.
> They have been deporting Imams who do not speak French for the same
> period of time. Those who espouse wife beating: deported.
Now this I did know. That was brought up on ARI a while back and with good
praise for it I might add and ARI is not a French friendly crowd.
A little
> more than a year ago and they were changing some of the immigration
> laws to make it easier to deport the radical Imams and Imams now have
> to be licensed by the state.
I didn't know about the changing of the immigration laws.
> Naturally not all of them can be got in this way. You cannot account
> for people turning up and just preaching but to say the government is
> not addressing the situation is nonsense.
Well, that's the ones I was talking about, the ones that fall through the
cracks, so I will retract what I said.
In fact, they are doing more
> than the British and possibly the American government to regulate what
> is taught in the mosques and who does the teaching.
Probably more than the British, I am not sure that we regulate what is
being taught in the mosques. We sure don't regulate what Aztlan says, so I
doubt if we would do that to Mosques.
DoD
"Daniel Bernard" <b...@bad.one> wrote in message
> racist/anti-Semite/anti-America/anti-British/sexist etc enough times
> that I just file anyone who says it in the same bracket.
>
> >>You seem to agree with a lot of it
> >> as well, possibly because it pushes an anti-Muslim line.
> >
> >You see that is the big misconception. I am NOT anti-Muslim. I have a
high
> >tolerance for everyone.
>
Only when I wanted to tick you off. Plus the other stuff.
> > What I am against is people that come to a place and
> >don't assimilate like everyone else. You absolutely can keep your
identity
> >and heritage as long as you are a good citizen.
> >
> Now you see. Here is the issue. If I said that then everyone would be
> wetting their knickers in the queue to call me a bigot. I've had
> enough fights with Moos about that issue.
>
> Here is a classic example ok? Tilly and I were debating Rugby. I
> pointed out that her side are actually made up of New Zealanders,
> Samoans, Fijians, Tongans and Maoris. Naturally, her response was to
> call me a racist and she walked right into a trap because all I did
> was then post a link where a former captain and current player, who is
> also the son of a former captain, said the exact same thing.
>
> Now, if I am racist for making a legitimate comment like that, isn't
> the other guy as well? I did tell her to write to the New Zealand
> Rugby team and complain about what she should have called racism
> (well, she did call it that when it came from me) but she declined to
> do so..............................
Well, I don't know the thread. But as it is placed in front of me here, you
didn't say anything that was racist.
> >Just like me wanting to close our borders. Liberals would call me a
racist,
> >but if that were true, why would I have a sister that is
[corrected myself here] married to a Mexican.
Mexican and it
> >doesn't bother me in the least and I am glad that my neice is going to
marry
> >another one this July? Why? I don't care about skin color, they are both
> >cool dudes. I just don't see why the laws of this country should be
> >trampled. It is not a hard concept.
> >
> >/rant
> >
> >You would
> >> gain a better understanding of the "banlieues" by watching La Haine
> >> then you will from reading Frontpage.
> >>
> >>>> Further reading on the subject.
> >>>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,11882,1637188,00.html
> >>>
> >>>This first one made some really good points, I thought.
> >>>
> >>>http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,11882,1637316,00.html
> >>>
> >>>This one was ok, but it to me pointed out just how crappy politicians
are
> >>>everywhere and not just here.
> >>>
> >> Which is the primary cause of the problem. Job creation and economic
> >> stimulus comes from the government and if it is not trickling down to
> >> the people who need it, then where does the blame actually lie?
> >
> >I know, I know... but will France ever get decent politicians? It looks
grim
> >for us here.
> >
> Chirac was only elected by default last time. Sarkozy, the Minister
> for the Interior had gone out of his way to stir the rioters. The two
> best candidates for the Presidency in 2007 happen to be two female
> candidates but it is unlikely they will run so it will be back to the
> usual suspects.
What are their names? Why won't they run?
> >>>> An interesting article that again explains who is rioting.
> >>>
> >>>I read that one already and it was interesting. I do believe that some
> >>>these
> >>>kids are also being manipulated by radical clerics even with all the
other
> >>>factors going on. And I still think that is dangerous and a bit
arrogant
> >>>on
> >>>the French government not to address that.
> >>>
> >> Not addressing it? You are coming into that situation blind, which is
> >> understandable because you do not follow French news.
> >
> >No, admittedly not.
> >
> The people who are quickest to offer their opinion on the current
> situation in France would also be in the same position. I very much
> doubt they speak a word of French and rely on all their news on the
> situation from CNN etc.
>
> CNN? As we have seen, CNN place Toulouse is in Italy and Strasbourg in
> Germany. That is hardly a ringing endorsement for their coverage.
True, but most Americans get news from variety of places.
> Most Americans, and I am going to stick out my neck and say Jewish
> Americans (yeah yeah yeah everyone can call me anti-Semite later but I
> really don't give a shit about that any more), posting on this are
> coming blind to the situation and base their view on hysteria caused
> by:
>
> 1) Francophobia,
Possible.
> 2) a religious distrust of Islam and
Very true, but not just a religious distrust, or spirtual I should say.
> 3) ill-formed propaganda.
>
> Let me ask a question: where were all the posts when there was a
> weekend of rioting in England a month ago?
>
> While the rioting in France drew on different ethnic divides, the
> rioting in England did not. It was the Muslim community in one corner
> talking about bringing in Mujihideen to protect their mosque and the
> black community on the other corner.
I didn't hear anything about any Mujihideen. The IHT article I read on it,
was some rioting (about 30 people) over a black girl that was raped.
I think that is hardly comparable to a couple of weeks and 300 cities, no
matter what the cause . Speaking of which, how many rioters do they suspect
are going about?
> Unless my servers have been playing silly buggers, I have not seen
> much hysteria with talk about the century of crusades and civil war in
> relation to an incident when there was clearly a religious tilt
> towards the trouble.
But was there?
> Why the difference? Is it down to the three points I listed above? Are
> you all going to brush off Muslims rioting in England while adding an
> Islamic slant to riots in France?
>
> I think I hit close to the bone with one poster when I pointed out
> that this situation reminded me of the hysteria that surrounded the
> fake incident on the RER.
What is that?
The three elements I listed were the same
> but we all know how that story ended.
> amicalement,
> Daniel
You have to let me know about the story first before I know how it ends.
Ben Cramer
"Daniel Bernard" <b...@bad.one> wrote in message
> racist/anti-Semite/anti-America/anti-British/sexist etc enough times
> that I just file anyone who says it in the same bracket.
>
>>> as well, possibly because it pushes an anti-Muslim line.
>>
>>You see that is the big misconception. I am NOT anti-Muslim. I have a high
>>tolerance for everyone.
>
>
>>don't assimilate like everyone else. You absolutely can keep your identity
>>and heritage as long as you are a good citizen.
>>
> wetting their knickers in the queue to call me a bigot. I've had
> enough fights with Moos about that issue.
>
> Here is a classic example ok? Tilly and I were debating Rugby. I
> pointed out that her side are actually made up of New Zealanders,
> Samoans, Fijians, Tongans and Maoris. Naturally, her response was to
> call me a racist and she walked right into a trap because all I did
> was then post a link where a former captain and current player, who is
> also the son of a former captain, said the exact same thing.
>
> Now, if I am racist for making a legitimate comment like that, isn't
> the other guy as well? I did tell her to write to the New Zealand
> Rugby team and complain about what she should have called racism
> (well, she did call it that when it came from me) but she declined to
> do so..............................
>
> for the Interior had gone out of his way to stir the rioters. The two
> best candidates for the Presidency in 2007 happen to be two female
> candidates but it is unlikely they will run so it will be back to the
> usual suspects.
>
>>>>
>>>>I read that one already and it was interesting. I do believe that some
>>>>these
>>>>kids are also being manipulated by radical clerics even with all the
>>>>other
>>>>factors going on. And I still think that is dangerous and a bit arrogant
>>>>on
>>>>the French government not to address that.
>>>>
>>> Not addressing it? You are coming into that situation blind, which is
>>> understandable because you do not follow French news.
>>
>>No, admittedly not.
>>
> situation in France would also be in the same position. I very much
> doubt they speak a word of French and rely on all their news on the
> situation from CNN etc.
>
> CNN? As we have seen, CNN place Toulouse is in Italy and Strasbourg in
> Germany. That is hardly a ringing endorsement for their coverage.
>
> Americans (yeah yeah yeah everyone can call me anti-Semite later but I
> really don't give a shit about that any more), posting on this are
> coming blind to the situation and base their view on hysteria caused
> by:
>
> 1) Francophobia,
>
> Let me ask a question: where were all the posts when there was a
> weekend of rioting in England a month ago?
>
> While the rioting in France drew on different ethnic divides, the
> rioting in England did not. It was the Muslim community in one corner
> talking about bringing in Mujihideen to protect their mosque and the
> black community on the other corner.
>
> much hysteria with talk about the century of crusades and civil war in
> relation to an incident when there was clearly a religious tilt
> towards the trouble.
>
> you all going to brush off Muslims rioting in England while adding an
> Islamic slant to riots in France?
>
> I think I hit close to the bone with one poster when I pointed out
> that this situation reminded me of the hysteria that surrounded the
> but we all know how that story ended.
> amicalement,
>
> Daniel
Ben Cramer
"Daniel Bernard" <b...@bad.one> wrote in message
> racist/anti-Semite/anti-America/anti-British/sexist etc enough times
> that I just file anyone who says it in the same bracket.
>
>>> as well, possibly because it pushes an anti-Muslim line.
>>
>>You see that is the big misconception. I am NOT anti-Muslim. I have a high
>>tolerance for everyone.
>
>
>>don't assimilate like everyone else. You absolutely can keep your identity
>>and heritage as long as you are a good citizen.
>>
> wetting their knickers in the queue to call me a bigot. I've had
> enough fights with Moos about that issue.
>
> Here is a classic example ok? Tilly and I were debating Rugby. I
> pointed out that her side are actually made up of New Zealanders,
> Samoans, Fijians, Tongans and Maoris. Naturally, her response was to
> call me a racist and she walked right into a trap because all I did
> was then post a link where a former captain and current player, who is
> also the son of a former captain, said the exact same thing.
>
> Now, if I am racist for making a legitimate comment like that, isn't
> the other guy as well? I did tell her to write to the New Zealand
> Rugby team and complain about what she should have called racism
> (well, she did call it that when it came from me) but she declined to
> do so..............................
>
> for the Interior had gone out of his way to stir the rioters. The two
> best candidates for the Presidency in 2007 happen to be two female
> candidates but it is unlikely they will run so it will be back to the
> usual suspects.
>
>>>>
>>>>I read that one already and it was interesting. I do believe that some
>>>>these
>>>>kids are also being manipulated by radical clerics even with all the
>>>>other
>>>>factors going on. And I still think that is dangerous and a bit arrogant
>>>>on
>>>>the French government not to address that.
>>>>
>>> Not addressing it? You are coming into that situation blind, which is
>>> understandable because you do not follow French news.
>>
>>No, admittedly not.
>>
Tilly will improve from now until the 16th. Moving up to full moon.
>
> Daniel
DoD
"Daniel Bernard" <b...@bad.one> wrote in message
> On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 14:16:39 -0600, "DoD" <the...@ss.mil> wrote:
>
> <snipped>
> >> >
> >> Chirac was only elected by default last time. Sarkozy, the Minister
> >> for the Interior had gone out of his way to stir the rioters. The two
> >> best candidates for the Presidency in 2007 happen to be two female
> >> candidates but it is unlikely they will run so it will be back to the
> >> usual suspects.
> >
> >What are their names? Why won't they run?
> >
> Defence. As to why won't they stand, most likely because their party
> will put forward other candidates. Probably Hollande for the PS and
> who knows for the UMP Possibly Chirac because he has to stay in power
> as long as possible. Most likely De Villepin but Sarko the Dwarf is
> positioning himself for a run and has been courting the voters that
> selected Le Pen in 2002.
Thanks for the information. I will try to learn a little bit about them.
As far as their parties putting forth other candidates, that seems to be a
problem here. Both parties here could have put forth way better candidates
in this past election than what they did. I can see though on the Republican
side that it is traditional to stick with the person that is in office, too
bad it had to be the chimp.
> The crap about bringing in the Mujihideen was reported in interviews
> in the British press. Gotta search hard to find it though. Yeah it
> might have just been hot air but it might not have. There was reports
> of Muslims from other areas of the country ready to join in the
> fighting,
I will take your word for that, since you live there.
> As for numbers, some articles say 30 - 40 were rioting and some say up
> to 400
>
> >I think that is hardly comparable to a couple of weeks and 300 cities,
no
> >matter what the cause . Speaking of which, how many rioters do they
suspect
> >are going about?
> >
> Higher death rate in the Lozells riots and 300 cities? Using the
> commonly held definition of a city the riots did not spread to 300
> cities.
I asked you about that earlier. I was only going on what was reported. That
is why I asked. Never been to France, didn't know if it was the traditional
definition.
> As for comparable, size is not important. "Size matters not" to quote
> Yoda. It is the intention and if people are going to dream up this
> intention of an Islamic apocalypse in France, then why not for
> Britain?
Yes, I don't think France is in immediate danger, however I don't think they
should take their eye off of this anytime too soon.
Hopefully maybe the economy with swing back around and a decent person will
get into office and get these people jobs and integrated. I don't know how
you feel about it, but I was reading something about giving them more
welfare. I don't think that welfare is the answer to this. Welfare in my
opinion is the last resort for truly desperate people. Since you are a
liberal, God only knows where you stand on that.
> >> Unless my servers have been playing silly buggers, I have not seen
> >> much hysteria with talk about the century of crusades and civil war in
> >> relation to an incident when there was clearly a religious tilt
> >> towards the trouble.
> >
> >But was there?
> >
> Well, there was more a religious tinge to it than the events taking
> place in France.
I will take your word for that.
> >> Why the difference? Is it down to the three points I listed above? Are
> >> you all going to brush off Muslims rioting in England while adding an
> >> Islamic slant to riots in France?
> >>
> >> I think I hit close to the bone with one poster when I pointed out
> >> that this situation reminded me of the hysteria that surrounded the
> >> fake incident on the RER.
> >
> >What is that?
> >
> Oh some attention seeker claimed she and her baby were attacked by 6
> North African men on the train because they thought she was Jewish. It
> led to 4 days of people spouting off utter bollocks followed by "oh
> me? I didn't say a single thing" when it was revealed that the woman
> who claimed to have been attacked invented the entire incident just to
> get some attention.
Shit happens I guess, to quote, ummmm you. ;o)
Ed
"LordAvalon" <monsieur...@yahoo.fr> wrote in message
news:1131525357....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
How do you edit cars burning on what are very obviously French streets?
>
LeMod Pol
Norma wrote:
>
> "Daniel Bernard" <b...@bad.one> wrote in message
> news:s92um1lhqk9a6q173...@4ax.com...
> > On 5 Nov 2005 02:13:00 -0800, "Alex B" <ale...@caramail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Big difference between the US and France situations : those rioting in
> >>the US are fully american citizens who have been there for centuries
> >>and who don't have another country of origin.
> >>
> > So why are they called African American?
it is the stupidity of "political correctness". They
were in America before 90% of all others.
Then there "rights" profiteers, like Jesse Jackson,
Louis Farrakhan, and Al Sharpton to whom "integration"
is a dirty word because it would eliminate their
platforms and profit centers. So they say "what's a
little hate between friends." <G>
>
> >
> >>In France they are mostly people of African and muslim origin, who've
> >>only been here for about 20-30 years, they may have french papers but
> >>they don't belong here, they'll never integrate. Stupid "Mover" may say
> >>they are "french like me", they are not, it takes more than a mere
> >>passport to be french.
> >>
> >>The only solution for them is deportation back to North Africa !
> >>
> > Ah oui. Le gouvernement peut rouvrir Drancy :-|
> > --
> > amicalement,
> >
> > Daniel
kwax
écoles, à des bus avec des gens dedans, aux pompiers"
Tiens donc !
Ici, dans ma ville, on vient d'en juger deux, ils s'appellent Julien et
Sébastien, et ils ont chacun un emploi. Pas Français, vous croyez ?
Ils ne s'attaqueraient pas non plus à des églises, des synagogues, ou
des mosquées, vos merveilleux petits Français, ni à des cimetières,
anglais, musulmans ou juifs (en Picardie, en Alsace, à Carpentras) ,
ni à des écoles dans le 19e arrondissement.
Ils ne cambrioleraient jamais une maison habitée, en plein jour ?
Ils ne jetteraient jamais un homme à bas d'un train, ni dans un canal,
même pas un Arabe.
Nous avons tous nos voyous, comme nous avons tous nos lauréats du
concours général.
Vous ne lisez plus les journaux depuis combien d'années, Alex B ?
Alex B
couper les cheveux en quatre, il est évident qu'il y a des Français
qui sont des salauds et des musulmans qui sont des gens très bien
(d'ailleurs mon épicier arabe, etc...)
Ce genre de chipotage ne change rien à la situation actuelle : quand
les Français que vous citez commettent des crimes, ce sont des actes
isolés. Dans le cas des émeutes actuelles, ce sont des actes
collectifs, revendicatifs, pour exprimer la haine d'une partie de cette
communauté envers le pays qui les accueillis et qui les nourrit à
coups d'aides sociales.
kwax
Ce choix de vocabulaire veut sans doute donner à Alex B un ton
condescendant. "Mon" épicier arabe ! On fait son Giscard ?
" Tenez mon brave, voici pour vos étrennes, allez donc prendre un
verre de vin à la cuisine ..."
Mais "mon petit", c'est hilarant. Dois-je acheter une web cab?
J'aimerai m'assoir sur vos genoux, Alex B, malgré le dégout que vous
m'inspirez. Ça vous clouerait le bec définitivement.