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WHY PARIS IS BURNING

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DoD

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Nov 4, 2005, 4:45:28 PM11/4/05
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AS THE night falls, the "troubles" start - and the pattern is always the
same.

Bands of youths in balaclavas start by setting fire to parked cars, break
shop windows with baseball bats, wreck public telephones and ransack
cinemas, libraries and schools. When the police arrive on the scene, the
rioters attack them with stones, knives and baseball bats.

The police respond by firing tear-gas grenades and, on occasions, blank
shots in the air. Sometimes the youths fire back - with real bullets.

These scenes are not from the West Bank but from 20 French cities, mostly
close to Paris, that have been plunged into a European version of the
intifada that at the time of writing appears beyond control.

The troubles first began in Clichy-sous-Bois, an underprivileged suburb east
of Paris, a week ago. France's bombastic interior minister, Nicholas
Sarkozy, responded by sending over 400 heavily armed policemen to "impose
the laws of the republic," and promised to crush "the louts and hooligans"
within the day. Within a few days, however, it had dawned on anyone who
wanted to know that this was no "outburst by criminal elements" that could
be handled with a mixture of braggadocio and batons.

By Monday, everyone in Paris was speaking of "an unprecedented crisis." Both
Sarkozy and his boss, Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin, had to cancel
foreign trips to deal with the riots.

How did it all start? The accepted account is that sometime last week, a
group of young boys in Clichy engaged in one of their favorite sports:
stealing parts of parked cars.

Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have not been
present in that suburb for years.

The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody, telephoned
the police and reported the thieving spree taking place just opposite her
building. The police were thus obliged to do something - which meant
entering a city that, as noted, had been a no-go area for them.

Once the police arrived on the scene, the youths - who had been reigning
over Clichy pretty unmolested for years - got really angry. A brief chase
took place in the street, and two of the youths, who were not actually
chased by the police, sought refuge in a cordoned-off area housing a power
pylon. Both were electrocuted.

Once news of their deaths was out, Clichy was all up in arms.

With cries of "God is great," bands of youths armed with whatever they could
get hold of went on a rampage and forced the police to flee.

The French authorities could not allow a band of youths to expel the police
from French territory. So they hit back - sending in Special Forces, known
as the CRS, with armored cars and tough rules of engagement.

Within hours, the original cause of the incidents was forgotten and the
issue jelled around a demand by the representatives of the rioters that the
French police leave the "occupied territories." By midweek, the riots had
spread to three of the provinces neighboring Paris, with a population of 5.5
million.

But who lives in the affected areas? In Clichy itself, more than 80 percent
of the inhabitants are Muslim immigrants or their children, mostly from Arab
and black Africa. In other affected towns, the Muslim immigrant community
accounts for 30 percent to 60 percent of the population. But these are not
the only figures that matter. Average unemployment in the affected areas is
estimated at around 30 percent and, when it comes to young would-be workers,
reaches 60 percent.

In these suburban towns, built in the 1950s in imitation of the Soviet
social housing of the Stalinist era, people live in crammed conditions,
sometimes several generations in a tiny apartment, and see "real French
life" only on television.

The French used to flatter themselves for the success of their policy of
assimilation, which was supposed to turn immigrants from any background into
"proper Frenchmen" within a generation at most.

That policy worked as long as immigrants came to France in drips and drops
and thus could merge into a much larger mainstream. Assimilation, however,
cannot work when in most schools in the affected areas, fewer than 20
percent of the pupils are native French speakers.

France has also lost another powerful mechanism for assimilation: the
obligatory military service abolished in the 1990s.

As the number of immigrants and their descendants increases in a particular
locality, more and more of its native French inhabitants leave for "calmer
places," thus making assimilation still more difficult.

In some areas, it is possible for an immigrant or his descendants to spend a
whole life without ever encountering the need to speak French, let alone
familiarize himself with any aspect of the famous French culture.

The result is often alienation. And that, in turn, gives radical Islamists
an opportunity to propagate their message of religious and cultural
apartheid.

Some are even calling for the areas where Muslims form a majority of the
population to be reorganized on the basis of the "millet" system of the
Ottoman Empire: Each religious community (millet) would enjoy the right to
organize its social, cultural and educational life in accordance with its
religious beliefs.

In parts of France, a de facto millet system is already in place. In these
areas, all women are obliged to wear the standardized Islamist "hijab" while
most men grow their beards to the length prescribed by the sheiks.

The radicals have managed to chase away French shopkeepers selling alcohol
and pork products, forced "places of sin," such as dancing halls, cinemas
and theaters, to close down, and seized control of much of the local
administration.

A reporter who spent last weekend in Clichy and its neighboring towns of
Bondy, Aulnay-sous-Bois and Bobigny heard a single overarching message: The
French authorities should keep out.

"All we demand is to be left alone," said Mouloud Dahmani, one of the local
"emirs" engaged in negotiations to persuade the French to withdraw the
police and allow a committee of sheiks, mostly from the Muslim Brotherhood,
to negotiate an end to the hostilities.

President Jacques Chirac and Premier de Villepin are especially sore because
they had believed that their opposition to the toppling of Saddam Hussein in
2003 would give France a heroic image in the Muslim community.

That illusion has now been shattered - and the Chirac administration,
already passing through a deepening political crisis, appears to be clueless
about how to cope with what the Parisian daily France Soir has called a
"ticking time bomb."

It is now clear that a good portion of France's Muslims not only refuse to
assimilate into "the superior French culture," but firmly believe that Islam
offers the highest forms of life to which all mankind should aspire.

So what is the solution? One solution, offered by Gilles Kepel, an adviser
to Chirac on Islamic affairs, is the creation of "a new Andalusia" in which
Christians and Muslims would live side by side and cooperate to create a new
cultural synthesis.

The problem with Kepel's vision, however, is that it does not address the
important issue of political power. Who will rule this new Andalusia:
Muslims or the largely secularist Frenchmen?

Suddenly, French politics has become worth watching again, even though for
the wrong reasons.
http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/18821


Mo Hammed

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Nov 4, 2005, 5:13:59 PM11/4/05
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Racists?

"DoD" <the...@ss.mil> wrote in message
news:YDQaf.46434$Tf5....@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio.net...

DoD

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Nov 4, 2005, 5:24:47 PM11/4/05
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"Mo Hammed" <M...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:D0Raf.28761$NJ.1...@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
> Racists?

Not exactly the kinda reply I was looking for. I would liked to have some
opinions from people that are actually French.

Ariadne

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Nov 4, 2005, 6:04:54 PM11/4/05
to

DoD wrote:
>
> Not exactly the kinda reply I was looking for. I would liked to have some
> opinions from people that are actually French.
>
DoD, nah has posted this in soc.culture.french.

DoD

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Nov 4, 2005, 6:30:19 PM11/4/05
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"Ariadne" <ariad...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1131145494.1...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Thanks, I will take a looksie when I get home.


John of Aix

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Nov 4, 2005, 8:55:33 PM11/4/05
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DoD wrote:

> Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have
> not been present in that suburb for years.

Absolute complete and utter nonsense.

> The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody,
> telephoned the police and reported the thieving spree taking place
> just opposite her building. The police were thus obliged to do
> something - which meant entering a city that, as noted, had been a
> no-go area for them.

There are no such thing as 'no-go' areas in France, though the Police
are more loath to go to some places than others.


DoD

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Nov 4, 2005, 9:12:05 PM11/4/05
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"John of Aix" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
news:436c112d$2$991$8fcf...@news.wanadoo.fr...

> DoD wrote:
>
>> Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have
>> not been present in that suburb for years.
>
> Absolute complete and utter nonsense.

Maybe he was trying to convey that they have not had the necessary presence
in those areas.

>> The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody,
>> telephoned the police and reported the thieving spree taking place
>> just opposite her building. The police were thus obliged to do
>> something - which meant entering a city that, as noted, had been a
>> no-go area for them.
>
> There are no such thing as 'no-go' areas in France, though the Police are
> more loath to go to some places than others.

Is the rest of the article pretty accurate?

B.T.W. I am responding to you in soc.culture.french because this i.s.p.
doesn't carry alt.france.


Gooserider

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Nov 4, 2005, 10:29:47 PM11/4/05
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"DoD" <the...@ss.mil> wrote in message
news:YDQaf.46434$Tf5....@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio.net...
> AS THE night falls, the "troubles" start - and the pattern is always the
> same.
>
It's time to call in the Foreign Legion. A few hundred dead rioters in the
streets would serve to calm things down. The next elections in France will
be very good for the right wing party.


The Re'ev

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Nov 4, 2005, 11:27:04 PM11/4/05
to
On Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:45:28 -0600, "DoD" <navy...@excite.com> wrote:

>AS THE night falls, the "troubles" start - and the pattern is always the
>same.
>
>Bands of youths in balaclavas start by setting fire to parked cars, break
>shop windows with baseball bats, wreck public telephones and ransack
>cinemas, libraries and schools. When the police arrive on the scene, the
>rioters attack them with stones, knives and baseball bats.

Sounds like nigras back home in the 60s, Doodoo. Remember Newark,
Detroit...

<b'rissed>

docremington

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Nov 5, 2005, 3:14:24 AM11/5/05
to
John of Aix wrote:
> DoD wrote:
>
> > Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have
> > not been present in that suburb for years.
>
> Absolute complete and utter nonsense.
>


I think so too, there sure have been at least one occupational police
outpost, present on the liberated territory. How's the intifada, bth?

John of Aix

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Nov 5, 2005, 3:17:18 AM11/5/05
to
DoD wrote:
> "John of Aix" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
> news:436c112d$2$991$8fcf...@news.wanadoo.fr...
>> DoD wrote:
>>
>>> Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have
>>> not been present in that suburb for years.
>>
>> Absolute complete and utter nonsense.
>
> Maybe he was trying to convey that they have not had the necessary
> presence in those areas.

Posssibly true, he should have said that then.

>
>>> The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody,
>>> telephoned the police and reported the thieving spree taking place
>>> just opposite her building. The police were thus obliged to do
>>> something - which meant entering a city that, as noted, had been a
>>> no-go area for them.
>>
>> There are no such thing as 'no-go' areas in France, though the
>> Police are more loath to go to some places than others.
>
> Is the rest of the article pretty accurate?

No, it is ridiculously exaggerated.

> B.T.W. I am responding to you in soc.culture.french because this
> i.s.p. doesn't carry alt.france.

I'm on both and scf is where I put the original reply I think

Alex B

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Nov 5, 2005, 5:13:00 AM11/5/05
to

Big difference between the US and France situations : those rioting in
the US are fully american citizens who have been there for centuries
and who don't have another country of origin.

In France they are mostly people of African and muslim origin, who've
only been here for about 20-30 years, they may have french papers but
they don't belong here, they'll never integrate. Stupid "Mover" may say
they are "french like me", they are not, it takes more than a mere
passport to be french.

The only solution for them is deportation back to North Africa !

Et abrogeons une fois pour toutes le suicidaire "Droit du Sol" !

Dr. Psy. Priv. Doz. Heinrich Salomon Abraham von Heinrichstein, Den Haag, Holland

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Nov 5, 2005, 7:11:47 AM11/5/05
to
Alex B wrote:

> Big difference between the US and France situations : those rioting in
> the US are fully american citizens who have been there for centuries
> and who don't have another country of origin.
>
> In France they are mostly people of African and muslim origin, who've
> only been here for about 20-30 years, they may have french papers but
> they don't belong here, they'll never integrate. Stupid "Mover" may say
> they are "french like me", they are not, it takes more than a mere
> passport to be french.
>
> The only solution for them is deportation back to North Africa !
>
> Et abrogeons une fois pour toutes le suicidaire "Droit du Sol" !

There is no drastic solution available. Unfortunately France has always
been prone to civil wars, riots and upheavals, caused by the
centralistic French government under the "Paris Monarchs": Kings,
Emperors and/or Jacobin's Presidents, which have never enabled
diversity in local self-government: De Gaulle stumbled on his
referendum about "décentralisation".

It seems that the French law and order system is not capable of coping
with today's realities. French authorities should perhaps let
themselves inspired by Anglo-Saxon's "Habeas Corpus" and ask the
British Government & Civil Servants for help and assistance, as the
U.K. seems to have a much better way to manage with racial / cultural
problems, as they had also coped much better with their dominions &

The 5 Elite Schools that have been "manufacturing" all French civil
servants for generations do not teach them the necessary basic culture
of pragmatism, open-mindedness, humbleness and world openness.

Gooserider

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Nov 5, 2005, 7:39:52 AM11/5/05
to

"Alex B" <ale...@caramail.com> wrote in message
news:1131185579.9...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>
> The Re'ev wrote:
>> On Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:45:28 -0600, "DoD" <navy...@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>> >AS THE night falls, the "troubles" start - and the pattern is always the
>> >same.
>> >
>> >Bands of youths in balaclavas start by setting fire to parked cars,
>> >break
>> >shop windows with baseball bats, wreck public telephones and ransack
>> >cinemas, libraries and schools. When the police arrive on the scene, the
>> >rioters attack them with stones, knives and baseball bats.
>>
>> Sounds like nigras back home in the 60s, Doodoo. Remember Newark,
>> Detroit...
>>
>> <b'rissed>
>
> Big difference between the US and France situations : those rioting in
> the US are fully american citizens who have been there for centuries
> and who don't have another country of origin.

Well, partially. US born blacks riot, but foreign born Mexicans and
OTM(other than Mexican) also rioted in LA. The US situation is actually
worse, because blacks have had a long time to become fully functioning
citizens(and lots have). There is a sizable percentage of that population
which hates our society and everything it stands for, hates white people,
and will take any opportunity to burn it down. It's scary.

> In France they are mostly people of African and muslim origin, who've
> only been here for about 20-30 years, they may have french papers but
> they don't belong here, they'll never integrate. Stupid "Mover" may say
> they are "french like me", they are not, it takes more than a mere
> passport to be french.
>
> The only solution for them is deportation back to North Africa !
>
> Et abrogeons une fois pour toutes le suicidaire "Droit du Sol" !

Yep. And we in the states need to start deporting our illegal immigrants as
well. Employers who hire illegals need to face stiff fines and jail time.
Illegals are a huge drain on the educational, health care, AND prison
systems.


John of Aix

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Nov 5, 2005, 7:27:53 AM11/5/05
to
Gooserider wrote:
> "DoD" <the...@ss.mil> wrote in message
> news:YDQaf.46434$Tf5....@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio.net...
>> AS THE night falls, the "troubles" start - and the pattern is always
>> the same.
>>
> It's time to call in the Foreign Legion. A few hundred dead rioters
> in the streets would serve to calm things down.

No it wouldn't, that is an absolute fact, proved in France and
everywhere else throughout history and you are an utter fool.


John of Aix

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Nov 5, 2005, 7:46:34 AM11/5/05
to
Dr. Psy. Priv. Doz. Heinrich Salomon Abraham von Heinrichstein, Den
Haag, Holland wrote:

>> Et abrogeons une fois pour toutes le suicidaire "Droit du Sol" !
>
> There is no drastic solution available. Unfortunately France has
> always been prone to civil wars, riots and upheavals, caused by the
> centralistic French government under the "Paris Monarchs": Kings,
> Emperors and/or Jacobin's Presidents, which have never enabled
> diversity in local self-government: De Gaulle stumbled on his
> referendum about "décentralisation".
>
> It seems that the French law and order system is not capable of coping
> with today's realities. French authorities should perhaps let
> themselves inspired by Anglo-Saxon's "Habeas Corpus" and ask the
> British Government & Civil Servants for help and assistance, as the
> U.K. seems to have a much better way to manage with racial / cultural
> problems

I do not agree. While the Brtish very rarely turn to the sort of
violence one sees in French demonstrations it does not mean they are
happy with the current situation among the many ethnic groups that now
live there. The 'anti multi-culti' are increasing in an alarming number
I find and on the other side, the ethnic groups, there has been a very
worrying radicalisation in the last few years. I don't mean the outright
lunatics like suicide bombers but the Sikhs on the one hand who manage
to get a play closed because they considered it offended them, there was
a similar case from the Muslims, a book withdrawn IIRC. While all should
be free to observe their faith they should be free to do so only insofar
as it does not encroach on the freedom of others, which the above cases
undoubtedly do. I prefer the French method, religion has no status in
French official life, it is just a personal belief like a belief in a
flat earth, fairies or the man in the moon. It is mentioned nowhere on
any official document and one gets no special treatment because one
believes in this or that god. I believe that "when in Rome do as the
Romans do" and it is up to visitors and immigrants (I am one but a nice
blue-eyed white one) to adapt to their host country not the host country
adapt to them.


I agree though that the UK did manage its dominions and colonies better,
especially when it came to withdrawal. Thye left them in a far better
state than the French or other colonial powers.


John of Aix

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Nov 5, 2005, 7:47:16 AM11/5/05
to
Alex B wrote:

> Big difference between the US and France situations : those rioting in
> the US are fully american citizens who have been there for centuries
> and who don't have another country of origin.
>
> In France they are mostly people of African and muslim origin, who've
> only been here for about 20-30 years,

Not in the least true, most of the people living in these areas are
born in France, educated in France, only speak French and are French.

> they may have french papers but
> they don't belong here, they'll never integrate.

The ones I mention do not need to integrate, they are French.

> Stupid "Mover" may
> say they are "french like me", they are not, it takes more than a mere
> passport to be french.

When you are born and educated in country and speak its language you
have a little more than a passport. In fact I doubt if many of them
have a passport, they can't afford to travel abroad much.

> The only solution for them is deportation back to North Africa !

You cannot deport nationals of your country.

> Et abrogeons une fois pour toutes le suicidaire "Droit du Sol" !

It is the law in most civilised countries, and sometimes has been for
centuries, and there is no need to change it.

Nuclear Winter

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Nov 5, 2005, 9:23:26 AM11/5/05
to
"John of Aix" wrote

>> The only solution for them is deportation back to North Africa !
> You cannot deport nationals of your country.

I guess you have never heard of Australia?
It used to be quite common for criminals to be deported there.


ari...@37.com

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Nov 5, 2005, 9:53:02 AM11/5/05
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Too true.
The riots are simply because of the muslim backwardness.
If the French don't deport those muslim beasts back to their hellholes
France will soon see the rise of the First Muslim Reich!
Good luck to my French buddies. I hope they have the balls they've
always lacked thourout history and get the vermin out.

John of Aix

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Nov 5, 2005, 1:20:17 PM11/5/05
to
ari...@37.com wrote:
> Too true.
> The riots are simply because of the muslim backwardness.

They have nothing to do with Islam, nothing at all.


John of Aix

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Nov 5, 2005, 1:47:12 PM11/5/05
to

I guess you haven't realised that this is the 21st century not the
nineteenth and things are not at all the same. There are no virgin
territories to deport people to for a start and you can't impose them on
sovereign nations.

Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted

DoD

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Nov 5, 2005, 1:58:44 PM11/5/05
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"John of Aix" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
news:436c6a9e$2$27450$8fcf...@news.wanadoo.fr...

> DoD wrote:
>> "John of Aix" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
>> news:436c112d$2$991$8fcf...@news.wanadoo.fr...
>>> DoD wrote:
>>>
>>>> Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have
>>>> not been present in that suburb for years.
>>>
>>> Absolute complete and utter nonsense.
>>
>> Maybe he was trying to convey that they have not had the necessary
>> presence in those areas.
>
> Posssibly true, he should have said that then.
>
>>
>>>> The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody,
>>>> telephoned the police and reported the thieving spree taking place
>>>> just opposite her building. The police were thus obliged to do
>>>> something - which meant entering a city that, as noted, had been a
>>>> no-go area for them.
>>>
>>> There are no such thing as 'no-go' areas in France, though the
>>> Police are more loath to go to some places than others.
>>
>> Is the rest of the article pretty accurate?
>
> No, it is ridiculously exaggerated.

John, in what ways?

Ed

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Nov 5, 2005, 3:57:39 PM11/5/05
to

"John of Aix" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
news:436c6a9e$2$27450$8fcf...@news.wanadoo.fr...

> DoD wrote:
>> "John of Aix" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
>> news:436c112d$2$991$8fcf...@news.wanadoo.fr...
>>> DoD wrote:
>>>
>>>> Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have
>>>> not been present in that suburb for years.
>>>
>>> Absolute complete and utter nonsense.
>>
>> Maybe he was trying to convey that they have not had the necessary
>> presence in those areas.
>
> Posssibly true, he should have said that then.
>
>>
>>>> The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody,
>>>> telephoned the police and reported the thieving spree taking place
>>>> just opposite her building. The police were thus obliged to do
>>>> something - which meant entering a city that, as noted, had been a
>>>> no-go area for them.
>>>
>>> There are no such thing as 'no-go' areas in France, though the
>>> Police are more loath to go to some places than others.
>>
>> Is the rest of the article pretty accurate?
>
> No, it is ridiculously exaggerated.

Is that so? I have seen the story reported on CNN, Fox, and all the other
major American TV news media, and DoD's article seems to be spot on.

TV cameras don't lie.

BrettZell

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Nov 5, 2005, 4:15:39 PM11/5/05
to
In article <YDQaf.46434$Tf5....@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio.net>,
DoD <the...@ss.mil> wrote:

> balaclavas

What does this word mean ?

Ben Cramer

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Nov 5, 2005, 6:37:08 PM11/5/05
to

"Nuclear Winter" <ar...@bad-poo.com> wrote in message
news:yOydnUHncrs...@pipex.net...

Only after Britain ran out of gaol space in what is now the United States
>
>


Ben Cramer

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Nov 5, 2005, 6:39:08 PM11/5/05
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"John of Aix" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
news:436cfec8$0$1724$8fcf...@news.wanadoo.fr...

If Israel hadn't persecuted them for so long, there would have been far less
of them seeking to escape the middle east. Quite easy to understand really.


>
>
>


John of Aix

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Nov 5, 2005, 6:39:16 PM11/5/05
to
DoD wrote:
> "John of Aix" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
> news:436c6a9e$2$27450$8fcf...@news.wanadoo.fr...

>>> Is the rest of the article pretty accurate?
>>
>> No, it is ridiculously exaggerated.
>
> John, in what ways?

I can't tell you now in detail as it has gone off my server, do you
have a link? I'll look at it again.

Ben Cramer

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Nov 5, 2005, 6:41:10 PM11/5/05
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<ari...@37.com> wrote in message
news:1131202382....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

I agree they should be deported back from whence they came. But the whole
cycle will only start again. The ME without the muslim would be a nirvana
for Israel. Israel doesn't give a shit where the muslims go, or who has to
deal with them.

The world is paying a heavy price for the creation of the illegal state of
Israel.

>


Ben Cramer

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Nov 5, 2005, 6:42:02 PM11/5/05
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"Ed" <nes...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:AOqdnb6P7KB...@comcast.com...

>
> "John of Aix" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
> news:436c6a9e$2$27450$8fcf...@news.wanadoo.fr...
>> DoD wrote:
>>> "John of Aix" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
>>> news:436c112d$2$991$8fcf...@news.wanadoo.fr...
>>>> DoD wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have
>>>>> not been present in that suburb for years.
>>>>
>>>> Absolute complete and utter nonsense.
>>>
>>> Maybe he was trying to convey that they have not had the necessary
>>> presence in those areas.
>>
>> Posssibly true, he should have said that then.
>>
>>>
>>>>> The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody,
>>>>> telephoned the police and reported the thieving spree taking place
>>>>> just opposite her building. The police were thus obliged to do
>>>>> something - which meant entering a city that, as noted, had been a
>>>>> no-go area for them.
>>>>
>>>> There are no such thing as 'no-go' areas in France, though the
>>>> Police are more loath to go to some places than others.
>>>
>>> Is the rest of the article pretty accurate?
>>
>> No, it is ridiculously exaggerated.
>
> Is that so? I have seen the story reported on CNN, Fox, and all the other
> major American TV news media, and DoD's article seems to be spot on.
>
> TV cameras don't lie.

But American news services do.


DoD

unread,
Nov 5, 2005, 6:52:38 PM11/5/05
to

"BrettZell" <Bret...@frenchfrog.org> wrote in message
news:051120052222022557%Bret...@frenchfrog.org...

Winter headgear kinda like a ski mask.


DoD

unread,
Nov 5, 2005, 6:53:59 PM11/5/05
to

"John of Aix" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
news:436d42bf$1$7831$8fcf...@news.wanadoo.fr...

Here you go John.

AS THE night falls, the "troubles" start - and the pattern is always the
same.

Bands of youths in balaclavas start by setting fire to parked cars, break


shop windows with baseball bats, wreck public telephones and ransack
cinemas, libraries and schools. When the police arrive on the scene, the
rioters attack them with stones, knives and baseball bats.

The police respond by firing tear-gas grenades and, on occasions, blank
shots in the air. Sometimes the youths fire back - with real bullets.

These scenes are not from the West Bank but from 20 French cities, mostly
close to Paris, that have been plunged into a European version of the
intifada that at the time of writing appears beyond control.

The troubles first began in Clichy-sous-Bois, an underprivileged suburb east
of Paris, a week ago. France's bombastic interior minister, Nicholas
Sarkozy, responded by sending over 400 heavily armed policemen to "impose
the laws of the republic," and promised to crush "the louts and hooligans"
within the day. Within a few days, however, it had dawned on anyone who
wanted to know that this was no "outburst by criminal elements" that could
be handled with a mixture of braggadocio and batons.

By Monday, everyone in Paris was speaking of "an unprecedented crisis." Both
Sarkozy and his boss, Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin, had to cancel
foreign trips to deal with the riots.

How did it all start? The accepted account is that sometime last week, a
group of young boys in Clichy engaged in one of their favorite sports:
stealing parts of parked cars.

Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have not been
present in that suburb for years.

The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody, telephoned


the police and reported the thieving spree taking place just opposite her
building. The police were thus obliged to do something - which meant
entering a city that, as noted, had been a no-go area for them.

Once the police arrived on the scene, the youths - who had been reigning
over Clichy pretty unmolested for years - got really angry. A brief chase
took place in the street, and two of the youths, who were not actually
chased by the police, sought refuge in a cordoned-off area housing a power
pylon. Both were electrocuted.

Once news of their deaths was out, Clichy was all up in arms.

With cries of "God is great," bands of youths armed with whatever they could
get hold of went on a rampage and forced the police to flee.

The French authorities could not allow a band of youths to expel the police
from French territory. So they hit back - sending in Special Forces, known
as the CRS, with armored cars and tough rules of engagement.

Within hours, the original cause of the incidents was forgotten and the
issue jelled around a demand by the representatives of the rioters that the
French police leave the "occupied territories." By midweek, the riots had
spread to three of the provinces neighboring Paris, with a population of 5.5
million.

But who lives in the affected areas? In Clichy itself, more than 80 percent
of the inhabitants are Muslim immigrants or their children, mostly from Arab
and black Africa. In other affected towns, the Muslim immigrant community
accounts for 30 percent to 60 percent of the population. But these are not
the only figures that matter. Average unemployment in the affected areas is
estimated at around 30 percent and, when it comes to young would-be workers,
reaches 60 percent.

In these suburban towns, built in the 1950s in imitation of the Soviet
social housing of the Stalinist era, people live in crammed conditions,
sometimes several generations in a tiny apartment, and see "real French
life" only on television.

The French used to flatter themselves for the success of their policy of
assimilation, which was supposed to turn immigrants from any background into
"proper Frenchmen" within a generation at most.

That policy worked as long as immigrants came to France in drips and drops
and thus could merge into a much larger mainstream. Assimilation, however,
cannot work when in most schools in the affected areas, fewer than 20
percent of the pupils are native French speakers.

France has also lost another powerful mechanism for assimilation: the
obligatory military service abolished in the 1990s.

As the number of immigrants and their descendants increases in a particular
locality, more and more of its native French inhabitants leave for "calmer
places," thus making assimilation still more difficult.

In some areas, it is possible for an immigrant or his descendants to spend a
whole life without ever encountering the need to speak French, let alone
familiarize himself with any aspect of the famous French culture.

The result is often alienation. And that, in turn, gives radical Islamists
an opportunity to propagate their message of religious and cultural
apartheid.

Some are even calling for the areas where Muslims form a majority of the
population to be reorganized on the basis of the "millet" system of the
Ottoman Empire: Each religious community (millet) would enjoy the right to
organize its social, cultural and educational life in accordance with its
religious beliefs.

In parts of France, a de facto millet system is already in place. In these
areas, all women are obliged to wear the standardized Islamist "hijab" while
most men grow their beards to the length prescribed by the sheiks.

The radicals have managed to chase away French shopkeepers selling alcohol
and pork products, forced "places of sin," such as dancing halls, cinemas
and theaters, to close down, and seized control of much of the local
administration.

A reporter who spent last weekend in Clichy and its neighboring towns of
Bondy, Aulnay-sous-Bois and Bobigny heard a single overarching message: The
French authorities should keep out.

"All we demand is to be left alone," said Mouloud Dahmani, one of the local
"emirs" engaged in negotiations to persuade the French to withdraw the
police and allow a committee of sheiks, mostly from the Muslim Brotherhood,
to negotiate an end to the hostilities.

President Jacques Chirac and Premier de Villepin are especially sore because
they had believed that their opposition to the toppling of Saddam Hussein in
2003 would give France a heroic image in the Muslim community.

That illusion has now been shattered - and the Chirac administration,
already passing through a deepening political crisis, appears to be clueless
about how to cope with what the Parisian daily France Soir has called a
"ticking time bomb."

It is now clear that a good portion of France's Muslims not only refuse to
assimilate into "the superior French culture," but firmly believe that Islam
offers the highest forms of life to which all mankind should aspire.

So what is the solution? One solution, offered by Gilles Kepel, an adviser
to Chirac on Islamic affairs, is the creation of "a new Andalusia" in which
Christians and Muslims would live side by side and cooperate to create a new
cultural synthesis.

The problem with Kepel's vision, however, is that it does not address the
important issue of political power. Who will rule this new Andalusia:
Muslims or the largely secularist Frenchmen?

Suddenly, French politics has become worth watching again, even though for
the wrong reasons.


ari...@37.com

unread,
Nov 5, 2005, 10:33:37 PM11/5/05
to
oh, so the muslims are invading Europe because of Israel? you're
showing again your utter ignorance. Israel is one of the few countries
in the world where its people are the descendants of their ancient
inhabitants. Why, Australia can only trace its roots to gangs of
rapists and murderers in britain. I'm sure your ancestors lived among
rats in a jail or two, mate. Think about that when you talk about
countries being illegaly created. Israel is the most legitimate country
in the world. While your ancestors were apes swinging in tree branches
(and stealing bananas from other chimps) mine were prophets in the
Kingdom of Israel
Cheers
Ariel

ari...@37.com

unread,
Nov 5, 2005, 10:34:28 PM11/5/05
to
Would the French orchestrate such riots these days?

Ben Cramer

unread,
Nov 5, 2005, 10:42:28 PM11/5/05
to

<ari...@37.com> wrote in message
news:1131248017....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> oh, so the muslims are invading Europe because of Israel? you're
> showing again your utter ignorance. Israel is one of the few countries
> in the world where its people are the descendants of their ancient
> inhabitants.

Where? Russia?


Why, Australia can only trace its roots to gangs of
> rapists and murderers in britain. I'm sure your ancestors lived among
> rats in a jail or two, mate.

My mob are from Norway, mate. Not a convict among them.


Think about that when you talk about
> countries being illegaly created. Israel is the most legitimate country
> in the world.

Bullshit. It was based on your lot accepting to accede to a non binding UN
resolution. The only one the izzies have accepted, by the way.


While your ancestors were apes swinging in tree branches
> (and stealing bananas from other chimps) mine were prophets in the
> Kingdom of Israel

Never been a kingdom of Israel, and well you know it.


The Re'ev

unread,
Nov 5, 2005, 11:59:42 PM11/5/05
to

Prophets? Kingdom of 'Israeel'? LOL.

Your ancestors were primitive, unwashed, semitic savages who practised
genital mutilation of children. Come to think of it, they still are!

UmmaKi...@yahoo.com

unread,
Nov 6, 2005, 1:31:26 AM11/6/05
to

Again your single fucking point. At least try to provide some proof
after fifty times. If you can draw yourself away from pole smoking
algerian 12 year olds you might google a little research. Google
instead of gobble, get it? Fucktard.

John of Aix

unread,
Nov 6, 2005, 3:46:03 AM11/6/05
to
DoD wrote:
> "John of Aix" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
> news:436d42bf$1$7831$8fcf...@news.wanadoo.fr...
>> DoD wrote:
>>> "John of Aix" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
>>> news:436c6a9e$2$27450$8fcf...@news.wanadoo.fr...
>>
>>>>> Is the rest of the article pretty accurate?
>>>>
>>>> No, it is ridiculously exaggerated.
>>>
>>> John, in what ways?
>>
>> I can't tell you now in detail as it has gone off my server, do you
>> have a link? I'll look at it again.
>
> Here you go John.
>
> AS THE night falls, the "troubles" start - and the pattern is always
> the same.
>
> Bands of youths in balaclavas start by setting fire to parked cars,
> break shop windows with baseball bats, wreck public telephones and
> ransack cinemas, libraries and schools. When the police arrive on the
> scene, the rioters attack them with stones, knives and baseball bats.
>
> The police respond by firing tear-gas grenades and, on occasions,
> blank shots in the air. Sometimes the youths fire back - with real
> bullets.

ONE (1) bullet

> By Monday, everyone in Paris was speaking of "an unprecedented
> crisis."

I doubt it

> How did it all start? The accepted account is that sometime last
> week, a group of young boys in Clichy engaged in one of their
> favorite sports: stealing parts of parked cars.
>
> Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have
> not been present in that suburb for years.

Nonsense

> The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody,
> telephoned the police and reported the thieving spree taking place
> just opposite her building. The police were thus obliged to do
> something - which meant entering a city that, as noted, had been a
> no-go area for them.

Repeat of nonsense.

> With cries of "God is great,"

Bwahahahaha, did they have Osama bin Laden T-Shirts as well.

> Within hours, the original cause of the incidents was forgotten and
> the issue jelled around a demand by the representatives of the
> rioters that the French police leave the "occupied territories."

Absolute balderdash.

> As the number of immigrants and their descendants increases in a
> particular locality, more and more of its native French inhabitants
> leave for "calmer places," thus making assimilation still more
> difficult.

What is this shit, here the writer is saying that the descendants of
immigrants will always be second class citizens. That a descendant of an
immigrant is somehow not French, cannot fit in, live besides other
peoples. It is the sign of a closet racism which has otherwise been
hidden behind journalistic gloss.

> In some areas, it is possible for an immigrant or his descendants to
> spend a whole life without ever encountering the need to speak
> French, let alone familiarize himself with any aspect of the famous
> French culture.

Absolute nonsense. The children of immigrants, like all children, go to
French schools where they speak the only official language of France,
French, all day and every day. The TV and radio is in French, the signs
in the street are in French, all official documents are in French. It is
absolutely impossible for them, or their parents for that matter, to
avoid French.

So sorry, this article is rubbish in the main and I suspect, as I say,
by a racist though they may not admit it to themselves.


DoD

unread,
Nov 6, 2005, 4:16:50 AM11/6/05
to

"John of Aix" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
news:436dc5e4$2$1025$8fcf...@news.wanadoo.fr...

> DoD wrote:
>> "John of Aix" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
>> news:436d42bf$1$7831$8fcf...@news.wanadoo.fr...
>>> DoD wrote:
>>>> "John of Aix" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
>>>> news:436c6a9e$2$27450$8fcf...@news.wanadoo.fr...
>>>
>>>>>> Is the rest of the article pretty accurate?
>>>>>
>>>>> No, it is ridiculously exaggerated.
>>>>
>>>> John, in what ways?
>>>
>>> I can't tell you now in detail as it has gone off my server, do you
>>> have a link? I'll look at it again.
>>
>> Here you go John.
>>
>> AS THE night falls, the "troubles" start - and the pattern is always
>> the same.
>>
>> Bands of youths in balaclavas start by setting fire to parked cars,
>> break shop windows with baseball bats, wreck public telephones and
>> ransack cinemas, libraries and schools. When the police arrive on the
>> scene, the rioters attack them with stones, knives and baseball bats.
>>
>> The police respond by firing tear-gas grenades and, on occasions,
>> blank shots in the air. Sometimes the youths fire back - with real
>> bullets.
>
> ONE (1) bullet

Are you really saying that a single bullet has been shot?

>> By Monday, everyone in Paris was speaking of "an unprecedented
>> crisis."
>
> I doubt it

Come on John...are you really serious here?

>> How did it all start? The accepted account is that sometime last
>> week, a group of young boys in Clichy engaged in one of their
>> favorite sports: stealing parts of parked cars.
>>
>> Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have
>> not been present in that suburb for years.
>
> Nonsense

Why is it nonsense here?

>> The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody,
>> telephoned the police and reported the thieving spree taking place
>> just opposite her building. The police were thus obliged to do
>> something - which meant entering a city that, as noted, had been a
>> no-go area for them.
>
> Repeat of nonsense.
>
>> With cries of "God is great,"
>
> Bwahahahaha, did they have Osama bin Laden T-Shirts as well.

I am not convicnced that it is a Muslim thing but just a bunch of
disenfranchised youth that are just getting uppity. But you have just
glossed over a bunch of real shit here.

>> Within hours, the original cause of the incidents was forgotten and
>> the issue jelled around a demand by the representatives of the
>> rioters that the French police leave the "occupied territories."
>
> Absolute balderdash.

Fantastic reply.

>> As the number of immigrants and their descendants increases in a
>> particular locality, more and more of its native French inhabitants
>> leave for "calmer places," thus making assimilation still more
>> difficult.
>
> What is this shit, here the writer is saying that the descendants of
> immigrants will always be second class citizens. That a descendant of an
> immigrant is somehow not French, cannot fit in, live besides other
> peoples. It is the sign of a closet racism which has otherwise been hidden
> behind journalistic gloss.
>
>> In some areas, it is possible for an immigrant or his descendants to
>> spend a whole life without ever encountering the need to speak
>> French, let alone familiarize himself with any aspect of the famous
>> French culture.
>
> Absolute nonsense. The children of immigrants, like all children, go to
> French schools where they speak the only official language of France,
> French, all day and every day. The TV and radio is in French, the signs in
> the street are in French, all official documents are in French. It is
> absolutely impossible for them, or their parents for that matter, to avoid
> French.
>
> So sorry, this article is rubbish in the main and I suspect, as I say, by
> a racist though they may not admit it to themselves.

Sorry.... I HOPE, HOPE... that Daniel Bernard gives a real time post about
this. Sorry .... John... you are just not believable...

Daniel... I hope you chime in here.


docremington

unread,
Nov 6, 2005, 5:28:48 AM11/6/05
to


As far as I know, Muhammad Bukharruba, aka Boumedienne, rattled in 1974
at the UN, that millions of muslims would go north as warriors of islam
and would conquer it through intensive and extensive fornication. I do
not think Israel had anything to do with that Muhammad or with a former
french real estate in the northern Africa.

Ben Cramer

unread,
Nov 6, 2005, 5:38:44 AM11/6/05
to

"docremington" <docrem...@safe-mail.net> wrote in message
news:1131272928.2...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

Of course you don't.
>


Gooserider

unread,
Nov 6, 2005, 7:13:48 AM11/6/05
to

<ari...@37.com> wrote in message
news:1131248017....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> oh, so the muslims are invading Europe because of Israel? you're
> showing again your utter ignorance. Israel is one of the few countries
> in the world where its people are the descendants of their ancient
> inhabitants.

Only the Sephardim are the original inhabitants of the land, and they are
discriminated by the European Ashkenazi Jews. Talk about IGNORANT.


patriot

unread,
Nov 6, 2005, 8:37:05 AM11/6/05
to

Mo Hammed wrote:

> Racists?

AS YOU LIKE REDHEAD IF THE DESTRACTION OF DEVIL IDEOLOGY YOU CALLED
RACISM YOU HAVE THE PROBLEM NOT US!

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "DoD" <the...@ss.mil> wrote in message
> news:YDQaf.46434$Tf5....@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio.net...


> > AS THE night falls, the "troubles" start - and the pattern is always the
> > same.
> >
> > Bands of youths in balaclavas start by setting fire to parked cars, break
> > shop windows with baseball bats, wreck public telephones and ransack
> > cinemas, libraries and schools. When the police arrive on the scene, the
> > rioters attack them with stones, knives and baseball bats.
> >
> > The police respond by firing tear-gas grenades and, on occasions, blank
> > shots in the air. Sometimes the youths fire back - with real bullets.
> >

> > These scenes are not from the West Bank but from 20 French cities, mostly
> > close to Paris, that have been plunged into a European version of the
> > intifada that at the time of writing appears beyond control.
> >
> > The troubles first began in Clichy-sous-Bois, an underprivileged suburb
> > east
> > of Paris, a week ago. France's bombastic interior minister, Nicholas
> > Sarkozy, responded by sending over 400 heavily armed policemen to "impose
> > the laws of the republic," and promised to crush "the louts and hooligans"
> > within the day. Within a few days, however, it had dawned on anyone who
> > wanted to know that this was no "outburst by criminal elements" that could
> > be handled with a mixture of braggadocio and batons.
> >

> > By Monday, everyone in Paris was speaking of "an unprecedented crisis."

> > Both
> > Sarkozy and his boss, Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin, had to cancel
> > foreign trips to deal with the riots.
> >

> > How did it all start? The accepted account is that sometime last week, a
> > group of young boys in Clichy engaged in one of their favorite sports:
> > stealing parts of parked cars.
> >
> > Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have not
> > been
> > present in that suburb for years.
> >

> > The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody,
> > telephoned
> > the police and reported the thieving spree taking place just opposite her
> > building. The police were thus obliged to do something - which meant
> > entering a city that, as noted, had been a no-go area for them.
> >

> > Once the police arrived on the scene, the youths - who had been reigning
> > over Clichy pretty unmolested for years - got really angry. A brief chase
> > took place in the street, and two of the youths, who were not actually
> > chased by the police, sought refuge in a cordoned-off area housing a power
> > pylon. Both were electrocuted.
> >
> > Once news of their deaths was out, Clichy was all up in arms.
> >
> > With cries of "God is great," bands of youths armed with whatever they
> > could
> > get hold of went on a rampage and forced the police to flee.
> >
> > The French authorities could not allow a band of youths to expel the
> > police
> > from French territory. So they hit back - sending in Special Forces, known
> > as the CRS, with armored cars and tough rules of engagement.
> >

> > Within hours, the original cause of the incidents was forgotten and the
> > issue jelled around a demand by the representatives of the rioters that
> > the

> > As the number of immigrants and their descendants increases in a
> > particular
> > locality, more and more of its native French inhabitants leave for "calmer
> > places," thus making assimilation still more difficult.
> >

> > In some areas, it is possible for an immigrant or his descendants to spend
> > a
> > whole life without ever encountering the need to speak French, let alone
> > familiarize himself with any aspect of the famous French culture.
> >

> > http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/18821
> >
> >

John of Aix

unread,
Nov 6, 2005, 4:02:34 PM11/6/05
to
ari...@37.com wrote:
> oh, so the muslims are invading Europe because of Israel? you're
> showing again your utter ignorance. Israel is one of the few countries
> in the world where its people are the descendants of their ancient
> inhabitants.

Arrant nonsense. Incredibly so.


John of Aix

unread,
Nov 6, 2005, 4:01:48 PM11/6/05
to
Ben Cramer wrote:
> <ari...@37.com> wrote in message
> news:1131202382....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> Too true.
>> The riots are simply because of the muslim backwardness.
>> If the French don't deport those muslim beasts back to their
>> hellholes France will soon see the rise of the First Muslim Reich!
>> Good luck to my French buddies. I hope they have the balls they've
>> always lacked thourout history and get the vermin out.
>
> I agree they should be deported back from whence they came.

They came from France. Illegal immigrants if found are usually deported
and have always been deported. Think before you post and before
thinking, find out the facts of what you intend to post about.


John of Aix

unread,
Nov 6, 2005, 4:10:05 PM11/6/05
to

C'est une 'chauffe-tête' tricoté avec un grand ouverture sur le visage,
des sourcils jusqu'en-dessous le levre inférerieur mais fermé partout
ailleurs (sauf le cou). il tient sonnom du Baille de Balaclava pendant
la Guerre de Crimée.

It's a knitted head-covering with a hole for the face going from the
eyebrows to below the bottom lip, closed everywhere else except the
neck. It gets its name from the Battle of Balaclava of the Crimean war.


John of Aix

unread,
Nov 6, 2005, 4:46:11 PM11/6/05
to
UmmaKi...@yahoo.com wrote:
> John of Aix wrote:
>> ari...@37.com wrote:
>>> Too true.
>>> The riots are simply because of the muslim backwardness.
>>
>> They have nothing to do with Islam, nothing at all.
>
> Again your single fucking point. At least try to provide some proof
> after fifty times.

One cannot prove a negative. Didn't you learn anything at school? I have
never suggested that it did have anything to do with Islam, if it does
that is a positive, a concrete fact and I'm sure you will therefore be
able to prove it won't you. What you won't? Well fancy that.

> If you can draw yourself away from pole smoking
> algerian 12 year olds you might google a little research. Google
> instead of gobble, get it? Fucktard.

Gets up your nose doesn't it sonny to find that all your fucking
prejudices and all your fucking ideas are absolute bollocks? Completely
worthless crap just as you show yourself to be by your stupid posts.

John of Aix

unread,
Nov 6, 2005, 7:18:49 PM11/6/05
to

A few more since, but few directly at the police, their cars in fact.

>
> Are you really saying that a single bullet has been shot?
>
>>> By Monday, everyone in Paris was speaking of "an unprecedented
>>> crisis."
>>
>> I doubt it
>
> Come on John...are you really serious here?

Perfectly, remember 1968, far more of a crisis for the government.

>>> How did it all start? The accepted account is that sometime last
>>> week, a group of young boys in Clichy engaged in one of their
>>> favorite sports: stealing parts of parked cars.
>>>
>>> Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have
>>> not been present in that suburb for years.
>>
>> Nonsense
>
> Why is it nonsense here?

Because they are present. perhaps not present in the right way but they
are present alright, that is what a lot of the kids are complaining
about, they have their identity checked for nothing at all five times a
day.

>>> With cries of "God is great,"
>>
>> Bwahahahaha, did they have Osama bin Laden T-Shirts as well.
>
> I am not convicnced that it is a Muslim thing but just a bunch of
> disenfranchised youth that are just getting uppity. But you have just
> glossed over a bunch of real shit here.

That is exactly it, kids getting uppity. Of course there is a
problem, that is undeniabl even if the expression by those complaining
is completely unacceptable, but it is not 'Islamic' as much of the
foreign press and many of those here pretend or believe

>>> Within hours, the original cause of the incidents was forgotten and
>>> the issue jelled around a demand by the representatives of the
>>> rioters that the French police leave the "occupied territories."
>>
>> Absolute balderdash.
>
> Fantastic reply.

The only one possible. The rioters do not have 'representatives',
they're rioters remember. Who writes this crap?

>>>