Was Sunday Times bombed by sci-fi story?

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gab...@hotmail.com

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Nov 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/21/98
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@Ha'aretz

Friday, November 20, 1998
 
Was Times bombed by sci-fi story?
 
By Ronen Bergman and Sharon Gal,
A short story described by its Israeli author as "completely imaginary
and lacking any foundation in reality" bears a striking resemblance to
the substance of a report in this week's London Sunday Times about
Israel's development of an "ethno-bomb" that would only target Arabs.
The Sunday Times' story, written by its Middle East correspondents Uzi
Mihnaimi and by Marie Colvin, claimed that Israeli scientists at the
Biological Institute in Nes Tziona were trying to exploit medical
advances by identifying distinctive genes carried by some Arabs and
then create a genetically modified bacterium or virus.

The intention, according to the Sunday Times report, is to use the
ability of viruses and certain bacteria to alter the DNA inside their
hosts' living cells, and then to engineer deadly microorganisms that
attack only those people bearing their distinctive genes.
But Doron Stanitsky, a lecturer at Tel Aviv University and the owner
of an economic consultancy firm, says he may be the source of the
story.

Two years ago, Stanitsky, who says he has nothing to do with security
matters, wrote a fictional story that sounds very much like the one
published by the Sunday Times. Stanitsky printed 80 copies of his work
and sent it to Israeli newspapers, emphasizing that it was pure
fantasy.

Stanitsky's story is about Prof. Arnaki (a play on har naki, the
Hebrew for the surname of Marcus Klingberg, a former top official at
the Nes Tziona facility, who was sentenced to a lengthy prison term
for spying for the Soviet Union).

Arnaki, who has been serving a prison term for espionage, has been
granted parole, but the prime minister demands that he remain behind
bars. It turns out that years before, David Ben-Gurion had ordered the
Nes Tziona institute to develop vicious bacteria in "Operation Seed of
Amalek." Arnaki developed a virus capable of attacking only Arabs. The
only problem was that the virus might also target Jews of "Oriental"
origin.

Arnaki asks Ben-Gurion's permission to kidnap a few hundred infants of
recently arrived Yemenite families, promising to return them after the
virus has been tested on them. Ben-Gurion vetoes the idea but after he
resigns the operation goes ahead. But something goes wrong and the
children contract the virus and die.

The prime minister convinces the president of the Supreme Court to
leave Arnaki in prison to ensure that the news of the experiment
doesn't leak out, and the story ends with a quotation from a Supreme
Court decision holding that Klingberg should not be released.
According to Foreign Report, the Israeli research was completed two
years ago, which was when Stanitsky's story circulated. It also says
that "the prime minister of the time" knew of the research, without
naming him, again as in the Stanitsky tale.

Uzi Mihnaimi said in reaction that "there is no connection between
Stanitsky's fantasy story and the report in the paper." He denied ever
reading the story. The Times foreign editor, Sean Ryan, said it was
"nonsense to claim th story was based on fiction... We stand behind it
completely."

Making the parallels even more striking is that a planned second part
of the Sunday Times article, they claimed Klingberg's release was
blocked for years by the security establishment because he had been
involved in developing an "ethnic virus" and that his release could
cause damage to state security.

Dool Tracy

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Nov 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/21/98
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This report was printed in Janes Foreign rpt and also the daily times (speaking
from memory) a few years ago, as well as the Jerusalem daily.

It seems more plausible that you, are trying to kill a story whose publication
you find unwelcome.

Dool Tracy

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Nov 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/21/98
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The issue here is not whether these 'ethno' weapons can be successfully
developed

-although with the success of the human genome project and similar improvements
in our understanding human genetics the development of these weapons become
more and more plausible -

but the fact that the state of Israel is - pursuing the development of weapon
mass destruction based on the genetic make up of one ethnic group. This is not
only morally repugnant, but also a cause of concern to the world community.


Omri Schwarz

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Nov 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/21/98
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Dool Tracy wrote:
>
> This report was printed in Janes Foreign rpt and also the daily times (speaking
> from memory) a few years ago, as well as the Jerusalem daily.

It first came out in Jane's, then
the Jerusalem Post said that Jane's said it,
then the Sunday Times said that the Jerusalem Post said that Janes said
it.

All of this was this month.

Let's see if you can produce a single article from
"a few years ago."

> It seems more plausible that you, are trying to kill a story whose publication
> you find unwelcome.

And the Middle East's tendency to come up with conspiracy
theories comes out again...

Dool, why has not a single biology professor come out and
said "this weapon is feasible"???
--
Omri Schwarz
"As an adolescent I aspired to lasting fame, I craved factual
certainty, and I thirsted for a meaningful vision of human life
- so I became a scientist. This is like becoming an archbishop so
you can meet girls." -- M. Cartmill

Dool Tracy

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Nov 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/21/98
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The point isnt whether these weapons are feasable - but the fact that the
Israeli military is pursuing research into them.


Omri Schwarz

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Nov 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/21/98
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Dool Tracy wrote:
>
> The issue here is not whether these 'ethno' weapons can be successfully
> developed
>
> -although with the success of the human genome project and similar improvements
> in our understanding human genetics the development of these weapons become
> more and more plausible -

Actually, genome research is making it *less and less* plausible.

> but the fact that the state of Israel is - pursuing the development of weapon
> mass destruction based on the genetic make up of one ethnic group. This is not
> only morally repugnant, but also a cause of concern to the world community.


Except that it's not a fact; it's a crazy theory with no backing
whatsoever.

JGA...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net

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Nov 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/21/98
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Dool Tracy wrote:
>
> The point isnt whether these weapons are feasable - but the fact that the
> Israeli military is pursuing research into them.<

So? I suppose you think the US and other nations aren't? Using science
for the military is not exclusive to ISrael by any stretch of the
imagination

Dool Tracy

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Nov 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/21/98
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So The Times is wrong, Janes is wrong, the Jerusalem Daily is wrong, but you
are correct?

It seems quite plausible that Israeli military would research biological
weapons, and this -
repugnant - line research would be one.
I hope they do not succeed in this.

Again, it looks as if you want to denigrate a report whose publication you find
unwelcome.

Dool Tracy wrote:

Omri Schwarz

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Nov 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/21/98
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Dool Tracy wrote:
>
> The point isnt whether these weapons are feasable - but the fact that the
> Israeli military is pursuing research into them.

Except it's not a fact.

The only evidence for it is articles with such
bogons as "the Arab genetic system."

Red Herring

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Nov 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/21/98
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Nope. The story was leaked as a warning to certain ethnic groups harboring
hostility toward Israel and the Jews.

Omri Schwarz

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Nov 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/21/98
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Dool Tracy wrote:
>
> So The Times is wrong, Janes is wrong, the Jerusalem Daily is wrong, but you
> are correct?

Yup.

In case you haven't noticed, journalists are the effete of
the world's professions. None of them referred to
any source other than Jane's, thus violating their own
standards.

Furthermore, the average journalist goes through
college without any biology courses. I'm one up
on almost all journalists in this regard.

> It seems quite plausible that Israeli military would research biological
> weapons, and this -
> repugnant - line research would be one.
> I hope they do not succeed in this.

I can tell you bluntly that Israel is researching bioweapons for this
reason: it takes research to know what filters to put in a gas mask.
The filter has to fit the weapon.

As for this repugnant line, it's impossible.

> Again, it looks as if you want to denigrate a report whose publication you find
> unwelcome.

Journalists once had the Two Source Rule.
This episode shows that they no longer go by it.
So yes, I am denigrating this report.

Dool Tracy

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Nov 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/22/98
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Hmm. Your word of honour is not relevant to this discussion.

Again it seems you are trying to denigrate a report whos publication you find
unwelcome

Dool Tracy

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Nov 22, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/22/98
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<I can tell you bluntly that Israel is researching bioweapons for this reason:
it takes research to know what filters to put in a gas mask. The filter has to
fit the weapon.>

No comment


Wassim S. Absood

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Nov 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/23/98
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Dool Tracy wrote:

Hmm. Your word of honour is not relevant to this discussion.

Again it seems you are trying to denigrate a report whos publication you find
unwelcome

> It seems quite plausible that Israeli military would research biological
> weapons, and this -
> repugnant - line research would be one.
> I hope they do not succeed in this.

I can tell you bluntly that Israel is researching bioweapons for this

reason: it takes research to know what filters to put in a gas mask.
The filter has to fit the weapon.

1.  Israel is probably researching biological weapons.  Guess what, so is the US.  Although we have foresworn Chem/Bio Weapons, we still conduct research because we have to know how to counteract the agents.  Mr. Scwartz makes a good point that this is the reason for Israeli bioweapon research, but I think it is probably also for possible use if necessary-just like the Israeli nukes ("We will not be the first to introduce nuclear weapons into the ME, but we won't be the last.").  Please note that except for possible Intl. Law violations, I have no problems with this.  Realpolitik is its' own justification.

2.  Israel probably isn't researching 'magic bullet' Arab-only bioweapons-it makes no sense to do so.  Although one might point out that Israel isn't terribly rational in making weapons that only serve to give it the pyrrhic ability to destroy itself (the Mutually Assured Destruction policy), the fact is that Israel knew that nukes would work.  Magic bullet diseases will probably not work, at least in any intended fashion.  They are also an unknown in that is is probable that they are impossible to make.  To argue that Israel would *waste* money on pursuing a weapon that might not work, that might kill portions of its own population, that would cost $ millions (if not billions) for foundation research is tenable, but greatly problematic.

3.  It is unclear what advantages Israel might hope to gain by creating a bio-weapon that will indisciminately kill Arabs.  After all, not all of the Arab states (not to mention citizens) are antithetical to Israel-a fact which Israelis are aware of no matter how US Zionists might protest that Israel is surrounded "on all sides by bloodthirsty Arabs".

4.  Jane's is a reputable source, but one that is difficult to see with one's own eyes.  Subscriptions to Jane's Intel Review start at $250.00/year and go up.  Also-not many libraries carry Jane's (I've found them at the Naval Post-Graduate School in Monterey and UC Berkely campus libraries only).  Regardless of what others say that Jane's said, I'd like to see the article for myself (will be going to Monterey soon).  I don't trust 'lay' reporters to understand the technical aspect of Jane's reports (or bio-research in general).

/s Wassim 

Dool Tracy

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Nov 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/23/98
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I remember reading about this in a UK daily a few years ago - dont have time
to go find it just now (exams for next 2 weeks :-/). I dare say other sources
apart from Janes should provide info on this.

Given the physical proximity of the warring states in the middle east, such a
weapon is quite Ideal for the state Israel - it can be used with no risk to
Israels own Jewish population. Whether development of this weapon is feasable
is another question of course.

I think given the nature of the Israeli state, it should be realised that the
Israeli military would have no qualms researching this sort weapon. What must
not be forgotten is that Israel is a state for - Jews -.
That means Isreali Arabs are resident Aliens, and will be treated as enemies
during war time.

Wassim S. Absood

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Nov 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/23/98
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Dool Tracy wrote:

> I remember reading about this in a UK daily a few years ago - dont have time
> to go find it just now (exams for next 2 weeks :-/). I dare say other sources
> apart from Janes should provide info on this.
>
> Given the physical proximity of the warring states in the middle east, such a
> weapon is quite Ideal for the state Israel - it can be used with no risk to
> Israels own Jewish population. Whether development of this weapon is feasable
> is another question of course.

>

There will always be risk to everyone, since you can't account for mutation.
Even if the Israelis do have (or are researching) a magic bullet weapon, there is
no way to ensure that it will stay targeted at any group or groups! It may
mutate to a generally deadly disease.

What about Jews who are Arabs? Africans or Africans with Arab genes
(Ethiopians)? Or did you forget that these very populations were the
'foundation' of research into this sort of bio-weapon?

Finally, what would Israel do once all of those pesky Arabs are dead-move into
Mecca? Do you really think that no one would retaliate? Hey, I'm only half
Arab, maybe I'll survive and build a Jew-killing strain. Maybe the white power
nazis will help me (or do it themselves).

>
>
> I think given the nature of the Israeli state, it should be realised that the
> Israeli military would have no qualms researching this sort weapon. What must
> not be forgotten is that Israel is a state for - Jews -.
> That means Isreali Arabs are resident Aliens, and will be treated as enemies
> during war time.

You see the debate as Jew vs. Arab-neglecting Arab Jews. While I have no
intention of whitewashing the often brutally repressive methods and tactics (not
to mention strategies) that the State of Israel was built with, I don't think
that Netanyahu et.al. wish to kill *any* of their own citizens. Perhaps, but
doesn't concentration camps seem simpler?

>

>
>
> < To argue that Israel would *waste* money on
> pursuing a weapon that might not work, that might kill portions of its own
> population, that would cost $ millions (if not billions) for foundation
> research
> is tenable, but greatly problematic.
> >

I guess is that what it comes down to is this: I see less evidence for Israeli
magic bullet bio-weapons than I do for systematic torture of Palestinians,
assasination and attempted assaination of Palestinian and Islamic Leaders,
complicity in Sabra & Shatilla, Qana, Deir Yassin and countless other now dead
villages, & contempt for the US in the form of Pollard. Sure, its possible. But
why?/s Wassim


Omri Schwarz

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Nov 23, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/23/98
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Dool Tracy wrote:
>
> I remember reading about this in a UK daily a few years ago - dont have time
> to go find it just now (exams for next 2 weeks :-/). I dare say other sources
> apart from Janes should provide info on this.

Very well. The articles mention the British Medical
Association writing a report about this (due in January).

Here's their web site:
http://www.bma.org.uk/mindex.htm

No mention of this in their press releases.

> Given the physical proximity of the warring states in the middle east, such a
> weapon is quite Ideal for the state Israel - it can be used with no risk to
> Israels own Jewish population. Whether development of this weapon is feasable
> is another question of course.

If you want to speculate on Israel's strategic
considerations, you should read Pournelle's
The Strategy of Technology, particularly the passages
about finite and infinite games.

Dool Tracy

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Nov 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/24/98
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Hi :-0)

The point Im trying to make is that the Israelis are - according to the more
than 1 report - attempting to develop these weapons. Obviously and lets hope so
in any case -that this research will not be successfull.

What strikes me about the Israelis is that they are ruthless, racist and
desperate, and have access to power and privilage. This makes them dangerous to
the extreme. Development of weapons such as above, and similar disingeneous
acts are not surprising when you consider their history. They are literally -
survivors of the Nazi holocaust who have stolen - land from the Arabs and made
a state of Israel on the misery and the suffering of their victims - the
Palesitinian Arabs.

They expect enmity, naturally, and prepare for it.


JGA...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net

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Nov 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/24/98
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Dool Tracy wrote:
>
> Hi :-0)
>
> The point Im trying to make is that the Israelis are - according to the more
> than 1 report - attempting to develop these weapons. Obviously and lets hope so
> in any case -that this research will not be successfull.
>
> What strikes me about the Israelis is that they are ruthless, racist and
> desperate, <

Desperate which has made them a tad ruthless. But not racist.

> and have access to power and privilage. This makes them dangerous to
> the extreme. Development of weapons such as above, and similar disingeneous
> acts are not surprising when you consider their history. They are literally -
> survivors of the Nazi holocaust who have stolen - land from the Arabs and made
> a state of Israel on the misery and the suffering of their victims - the
> Palesitinian Arabs.
> They expect enmity, naturally, and prepare for it.<

Yeah, too bad we didn't have a bioweapon against the Nazis in 1939. I
agree.

JGA...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net

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Nov 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/24/98
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W>
> Finally, what would Israel do once all of those pesky Arabs are dead-move into
> Mecca? Do you really think that no one would retaliate?<

I don't know, what do you think would happen? Would the US or Russia
retaliate? And what if Israel were overrun and the Jews killed, would
someone retaliate? Good question.

> Hey, I'm only half
> Arab, maybe I'll survive and build a Jew-killing strain. Maybe the white power
> nazis will help me (or do it themselves).>

They don't believe in "Jewish science." That is why Hitler didn't get
the bomb first :)

humble...@gmail.com

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Jun 2, 2019, 10:47:42 PM6/2/19
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On Saturday, November 21, 1998 at 2:00:00 AM UTC-6, Omri Schwarz wrote:
> Dool Tracy wrote:
> >
> > The issue here is not whether these 'ethno' weapons can be successfully
> > developed
> >
> > -although with the success of the human genome project and similar improvements
> > in our understanding human genetics the development of these weapons become
> > more and more plausible -
>
> Actually, genome research is making it *less and less* plausible.
>
> > but the fact that the state of Israel is - pursuing the development of weapon
> > mass destruction based on the genetic make up of one ethnic group. This is not
> > only morally repugnant, but also a cause of concern to the world community.
>
>
> Except that it's not a fact; it's a crazy theory with no backing
> whatsoever.
> --
> Omri Schwarz
> "As an adolescent I aspired to lasting fame, I craved factual
> certainty, and I thirsted for a meaningful vision of human life
> - so I became a scientist. This is like becoming an archbishop so
> you can meet girls." -- M. Cartmill



I think it's in both your interest and also mine, that we all condemn this type of warfare and even research into it. For it would not take much real proof, however ardently you may believe it to not exist, in order to provoke a response that would surely be the last holocaust to befall the Jewish people. When you are playing with such a flame, the only possible outcome is self immolation.
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