the police as political instruments

[doper]

smi...@tiac.net (samson.f.mischkind) wrote:

>So it is very hard not to dislike the police when one feels that certain
>laws are so completely unjust that one cannot even imagine how a human
>with any decency or intelligence could actually bring themselves to
>enforce them. I just can't help but cringe when I imagine that anyone
>could actually choose this line of work.

I get mad at anyone who is unwilling to think for
himself. We don't want cops who were "just following
orders." We don't want robocops, we want leo's who
grew up where they work and want to protect and be a
part of their communities. We don't want military police.

Police in the uS are not respected because all we see
them do is hassle people over things like smoking
marijuana, driving too fast, paying our automobile
registration, ad nauseum, when there are obviously more
important things for them to do. And the punishments for
victimless drug crimes are so cruel and disproportionate
that no decent human being could be a part of that system.

We don't see you as our protectors, we see you as the
muscle behind a government that violates our common law
rights of property and passage, tax collectors, bounty
hunters who work on commission.

[Usenet's Panache]

On 17 Oct 1996 00:25:17 GMT, doper <do...@inner.city.net> uttered
these pearls of wisdom:

>Police in the uS are not respected because all we see
>them do is hassle people over things like smoking
>marijuana

Eh. Pot should be legalized.

>driving too fast

Excessive speed causes accidents. Especially in urban centers.
What's wrong with preventing accidents?

>paying our automobile registration

Do you think upkeep of the roads is free? And if payment wasn't
mandatory, do you think people would just donate money?

>And the punishments for
>victimless drug crimes are so cruel and disproportionate
>that no decent human being could be a part of that system.

Victimless?!? HAH!

Who's being naive now? You haven't seen entire families torn apart by
drugs, have you? Entire lives destroyed.

Victimless indeed. May I suggest you ride with a patrol officer a
couple of times and see exactly HOW victimless it is.

>We don't see you as our protectors, we see you as the
>muscle behind a government that violates our common law
>rights of property and passage, tax collectors, bounty
>hunters who work on commission.

Hey. I've come to expect most people to dislike cops. As a grizzled
old sergeant once told me "You only deal with four types of people -
The Sick, The Psychos, The Selfish and The Unlucky." And he was
right. Nobody likes getting a ticket. And nobody likes getting
arrested when they break the law.

Now, in a perfect world, people would accept responsibility for their
actions and strive to improve themselves. Hell, in a perfect world,
we wouldn't NEED cops.

But it's always easier to blame somebody else when you're caught and
it's time to face up to your responsibilities. "Damn cops. Fucking
pigs."

Anyway, WE don't right the laws. Your elected representatives do.
When we were sworn into office, we swore to uphold the laws of the
community we were in.

Nowhere in this oath of office does it say that we can decide that we
don't like a certain law, and not enforce it.

--------
"Only the crazies hang around nursery."

[Tom Potter]

In <326aa87d...@news.alt.net> pana...@juno.com (Usenet's Panache)
writes:

>
>On 17 Oct 1996 00:25:17 GMT, doper <do...@inner.city.net> uttered
>these pearls of wisdom:
>
>>Police in the uS are not respected because all we see
>>them do is hassle people over things like smoking
>>marijuana
>
>Eh. Pot should be legalized.
>
>>driving too fast
>
>Excessive speed causes accidents. Especially in urban centers.
>What's wrong with preventing accidents?

Let's be truthful.
Most traffic tickets are given to provide INCOME
to the general funds of the communities, and to
HASSLE the undisireables who come into the community.

I have never had an accident yet I have received many
tickets, almost all in speed traps in states and
communities notorious for it.

>>paying our automobile registration
>
>Do you think upkeep of the roads is free? And if payment wasn't
>mandatory, do you think people would just donate money?

If a state was interested in good will, and providing
"the pursuit of happiness" for it's citizens, it would
give warnings, not tickets for trivial violations.
States and law enforcement like to use trival violations
in order to throw their weight around, and let the
peasants know who is running things. ( The government )

>>And the punishments for
>>victimless drug crimes are so cruel and disproportionate
>>that no decent human being could be a part of that system.
>
>Victimless?!? HAH!
>
>Who's being naive now? You haven't seen entire families torn apart by
>drugs, have you? Entire lives destroyed.

For every person, and family, that has been severely
harmed by an addiction to drugs, at least ten have
been destroyed by the criminal justice system due
to court costs, jail time, loss of income, stimatized, etc.
And the whole fiasco costs the innocent taxpayers billions
of dollars every year.

>Victimless indeed. May I suggest you ride with a patrol officer a
>couple of times and see exactly HOW victimless it is.

>>We don't see you as our protectors, we see you as the
>>muscle behind a government that violates our common law
>>rights of property and passage, tax collectors, bounty
>>hunters who work on commission.
>
>Hey. I've come to expect most people to dislike cops. As a grizzled
>old sergeant once told me "You only deal with four types of people -
>The Sick, The Psychos, The Selfish and The Unlucky." And he was
>right. Nobody likes getting a ticket. And nobody likes getting
>arrested when they break the law.

As a father, teacher, employer and landlord,
I never EXPECTED anyone to dislike me.
Do you know why? I treateded them all fairly
and with respect. I treated them as human beings
and never took away their self respect.

>Now, in a perfect world, people would accept responsibility for their
>actions and strive to improve themselves. Hell, in a perfect world,
>we wouldn't NEED cops.
>
>But it's always easier to blame somebody else when you're caught and
>it's time to face up to your responsibilities. "Damn cops. Fucking
>pigs."
>
>Anyway, WE don't right the laws. Your elected representatives do.
>When we were sworn into office, we swore to uphold the laws of the
>community we were in.
>
>Nowhere in this oath of office does it say that we can decide that we
>don't like a certain law, and not enforce it.

Bullshit. I know cops, and I read a book written
by a cop once, that told how to avoid getting
tickets. Also, although there are more alcoholic
cops percentage wise than any other profession, yet
I would be willing to bet big money that percentage wise
they don't receive the percentage of drunk driving
( And other ) tickets that other professions do.

Also, cops have become institutionalized and
self-serving like most government employees.
You are more apt to fins a cop giving out
traffic tickets in a safe neighborhood during
daylight hours, rather than patrolling high crime
areas during high crime times.

Law enforcement, like public education, is largely
an expensive, sick joke on the tax payers and
the people in general. Some cities have as many
as fifty cops per square mile, yet they do as much
to cause crime ( By transfered aggression, etc. )
then they to inhibit crime. In most inner cities,
the safest places ( Hospitals, companies and
shopping centers ) are patrolled by private cops.

Tom Potter http://pobox.com/~tdp

[fire...@tiac.net]

doper <do...@inner.city.net> wrote:

>smi...@tiac.net (samson.f.mischkind) wrote:

>>So it is very hard not to dislike the police when one feels that certain
>>laws are so completely unjust that one cannot even imagine how a human
>>with any decency or intelligence could actually bring themselves to
>>enforce them. I just can't help but cringe when I imagine that anyone
>>could actually choose this line of work.

>I get mad at anyone who is unwilling to think for
>himself. We don't want cops who were "just following
>orders." We don't want robocops, we want leo's who
>grew up where they work and want to protect and be a
>part of their communities. We don't want military police.

I really really LOVE reading some of this stuff cluelessness abounds.
Police and can do think for themselves as much as any other person
does. And many probably even most cops work where they live and if
not tend to be part of both communities.

>Police in the uS are not respected because all we see
>them do is hassle people over things like smoking

>marijuana, driving too fast, paying our automobile
>registration,

Lets see. smoking pot illegal by order of legislature and approved by
the SC. So police enforcing the law is hassling.
Speed limits set for saftey by the state/county and by the Federal
government clearly marked. Police enforcing the law is hassling.
Paying for registration and inspection to prove the vehicle is safe
for use around the public. So police enforcing the law is hassling.
I'm seeing a theme here police doing their job enforcing the law isn't
what you want. Guess what those laws can be changed if you talk to
your legislators and the majority of america agrees. Other then that
police have one primary job..ENFORCE the law. If you see them
harrasing people who have voilated the law then they are doing the job
they were hired for. If you obey the law they <gasp> won't bother
you.

>ad nauseum, when there are obviously more

>important things for them to do. And the punishments for

>victimless drug crimes are so cruel and disproportionate
>that no decent human being could be a part of that system.

That is your opinion and has nothing to do with the police. Take it
up with the law makers or don't break the laws you can't go around in
life blaming everyone else you want to break the law then you better
be ready for the consequences.

>We don't see you as our protectors, we see you as the
>muscle behind a government that violates our common law
>rights of property and passage, tax collectors, bounty
>hunters who work on commission.

Right sure commision you seen law enforcement salaries of late? Of
course if you voilate that law we aren't going to be your protectors
we are sworn to uphold the LAW which the majority of the people
through the representives the elect have willed.

[fire...@tiac.net]

t...@ix.netcom.com(Tom Potter) wrote:

>In <326aa87d...@news.alt.net> pana...@juno.com (Usenet's Panache)
>writes:
>>
>>On 17 Oct 1996 00:25:17 GMT, doper <do...@inner.city.net> uttered
>>these pearls of wisdom:
>>
>>>Police in the uS are not respected because all we see
>>>them do is hassle people over things like smoking
>>>marijuana
>>
>>Eh. Pot should be legalized.
>>
>>>driving too fast
>>
>>Excessive speed causes accidents. Especially in urban centers.
>>What's wrong with preventing accidents?

>Let's be truthful.
>Most traffic tickets are given to provide INCOME
>to the general funds of the communities, and to
>HASSLE the undisireables who come into the community.

Ahh enter Tom's secret insider knowlage of the whole world. Yes
traffic tickets provide income. However they are given to hassle
those who break the law, local, forgeiner, desired or otherwise. Lets
be truthful you exceeded the speed limit you got caught your whining.

>I have never had an accident yet I have received many
>tickets, almost all in speed traps in states and
>communities notorious for it.

And you kept on speeding anyway instead of following the posted speed
limit. My god what a tragedy of justice. What's the old saying
better to be thought of a follow then open your mouth and prove it. I
mean how STUPID can you be then going into an area you know has speed
traps and speeding. Hell I'd double your ticket if you told me that.
Then again I don't give speeding tickets so I guess you lucked out.

>>>paying our automobile registration
>>
>>Do you think upkeep of the roads is free? And if payment wasn't
>>mandatory, do you think people would just donate money?

>If a state was interested in good will, and providing
>"the pursuit of happiness" for it's citizens, it would
>give warnings, not tickets for trivial violations.
>States and law enforcement like to use trival violations
>in order to throw their weight around, and let the
>peasants know who is running things. ( The government )

Let me guess your favorite show is the X-files isn't it? Depending on
your record and the violation we might give a warning...heck I know of
a time we actually gave a speeder a police escort cause he wanted to
get to the hospital his daughter had been hurt somehow and he was
rushing from work. So a cruiser lit up and cleared the way with him
behind dropped him at the hospital with a warning. In other words as
with anything it's the individual

>>>And the punishments for
>>>victimless drug crimes are so cruel and disproportionate
>>>that no decent human being could be a part of that system.
>>
>>Victimless?!? HAH!
>>
>>Who's being naive now? You haven't seen entire families torn apart by
>>drugs, have you? Entire lives destroyed.

>For every person, and family, that has been severely
>harmed by an addiction to drugs, at least ten have
>been destroyed by the criminal justice system due
>to court costs, jail time, loss of income, stimatized, etc.
>And the whole fiasco costs the innocent taxpayers billions
>of dollars every year.

Ummm okay and what should we do with the criminals?

>>Victimless indeed. May I suggest you ride with a patrol officer a
>>couple of times and see exactly HOW victimless it is.

>>>We don't see you as our protectors, we see you as the
>>>muscle behind a government that violates our common law
>>>rights of property and passage, tax collectors, bounty
>>>hunters who work on commission.
>>
>>Hey. I've come to expect most people to dislike cops. As a grizzled
>>old sergeant once told me "You only deal with four types of people -
>>The Sick, The Psychos, The Selfish and The Unlucky." And he was
>>right. Nobody likes getting a ticket. And nobody likes getting
>>arrested when they break the law.

>As a father, teacher, employer and landlord,
>I never EXPECTED anyone to dislike me.
>Do you know why? I treateded them all fairly
>and with respect. I treated them as human beings
>and never took away their self respect.

Hmmmm Lessee I try and help a kid who's drugged out fell down a flight
of stairs try to treat his wounds he wakes up and stabs me with a pair
of sissors from my own belt <last time I left the bloodly things
unlatched> how bout those wonderful folks who shoot firefighters in
the back while fighting the blaze? Ohh yeah people just love
everyone. Are you done with fantazy yet? Yes people need to be
treated fairly you are 100% right but no it wouldn't make a bit of
difference when it comes to perception of officers.

>>Now, in a perfect world, people would accept responsibility for their
>>actions and strive to improve themselves. Hell, in a perfect world,
>>we wouldn't NEED cops.
>>
>>But it's always easier to blame somebody else when you're caught and
>>it's time to face up to your responsibilities. "Damn cops. Fucking
>>pigs."
>>
>>Anyway, WE don't right the laws. Your elected representatives do.
>>When we were sworn into office, we swore to uphold the laws of the
>>community we were in.
>>
>>Nowhere in this oath of office does it say that we can decide that we
>>don't like a certain law, and not enforce it.

>Bullshit. I know cops, and I read a book written
>by a cop once, that told how to avoid getting
>tickets.

> Also, although there are more alcoholic
>cops percentage wise than any other profession,

For the record EMS has the highest alcholic rate just thought I'd let
you know.

> yet I would be willing to bet big money that percentage wise
>they don't receive the percentage of drunk driving
>( And other ) tickets that other professions do.

Maybe cause the tend to get rides home?

>Also, cops have become institutionalized and
>self-serving like most government employees.
>You are more apt to fins a cop giving out
>traffic tickets in a safe neighborhood during
>daylight hours, rather than patrolling high crime
>areas during high crime times.

Hmmm I'm sure you have some evidence of this?

>Law enforcement, like public education, is largely
>an expensive, sick joke on the tax payers and
>the people in general. Some cities have as many
>as fifty cops per square mile, yet they do as much
>to cause crime ( By transfered aggression, etc. )
>then they to inhibit crime. In most inner cities,
>the safest places ( Hospitals, companies and
>shopping centers ) are patrolled by private cops.

Ummm yeah right hospital safe? you haven't spent much time in ER's
have you. Wanna know why they appear safe there is ALWAY
cops/firefighter/EMS personell in the building to help when things get
out of hand. Shopping centers safe.... 14 reported kidnappings in 4
months and all near shopping centers. Yep Safe there.

>Tom Potter http://pobox.com/~tdp

[Jerome Bigge]

This is common with anyone who is given some small amount of
authority. I've seen this with security guards (rent-a-cops) lots of
times. It is called being "badge happy". Also, governments always
want people to "know" just "who" is really running things here...

Jerome Bigge (jbi...@novagate.com) NRA Life Member

THE SECOND ADMENDMENT: OUR INSURANCE POLICY!
*********************************************
My Warlady novels are available on my web page.
Please go to "http://www.novagate.com/~jbigge"
(they are all "zipped" and about 300K each)
A total of 9 are available to read...
Tales of adventure in a future dark age.
A time when the sword once again "ruled"!

[Virtually Reality]

> >And the punishments for
> >victimless drug crimes are so cruel and disproportionate
> >that no decent human being could be a part of that system.
>
> Victimless?!? HAH!
>
> Who's being naive now? You haven't seen entire families torn apart by
> drugs, have you? Entire lives destroyed.
>

No I havent. I have seen entire lives torn apart by addictions, but guess what some
of those addictions were to gambling some were to fatty foods, some to sex, and yes some
were to drugs. I have certainly seen lives torn apart by addictions to sex, but there were
a few lives created by it also.

.
> Victimless indeed. May I suggest you ride with a patrol officer a
> couple of times and see exactly HOW victimless it is.
>

What we would see are the victims created by the drive by shootings and black markets, the victims
created by the WOD. These are your victims and as an agent of these laws you share a huge
portion of the responsibility for these victims.

> >We don't see you as our protectors, we see you as the
> >muscle behind a government that violates our common law
> >rights of property and passage, tax collectors, bounty
> >hunters who work on commission.
>
> Hey. I've come to expect most people to dislike cops. As a grizzled
> old sergeant once told me "You only deal with four types of people -
> The Sick, The Psychos, The Selfish and The Unlucky." And he was
> right. Nobody likes getting a ticket. And nobody likes getting
> arrested when they break the law.
>

Why do you think most people dislike cops? It didnt used to be the case. When I was growing
up alot of kids wanted to be cops. I think you will find most kids hate disrepect or fear cops
today and the attitude comes from the exact things he mentions above.

> Now, in a perfect world, people would accept responsibility for their
> actions and strive to improve themselves. Hell, in a perfect world,
> we wouldn't NEED cops.
>

Exactly in a perfect world we would realize we have plenty of room for self improvement. In a perfect
world we would strive to eliminate the faults in ourself before legislating fault into other peoples
behavior. Unfortunately its hard to admit ones own shortcomings and is easier to simply point the
finger and say "UGG SEE DRUG USER HE BAD". It makes people feel better about themselves but doesnt address
their own shortcomings.

> Anyway, WE don't right the laws. Your elected representatives do.
> When we were sworn into office, we swore to uphold the laws of the
> community we were in.
>

And if those laws are wrong swearing an oath does not excuse your behavior if you chose to
enforce them. See the point made above. You cannot fall back on "well I have an oath" to
defend your own reprehensible acts. Its the easy and lazy way out of moral responsibility.

> Nowhere in this oath of office does it say that we can decide that we
> don't like a certain law, and not enforce it.
>

Ah but you do. Will you seriously tell me that you have never let anyone off for any infraction?
How many cops have said they have never let a speeder go? If you chose not to enforce the law in some
cases than you have no basis to say you cannot chose which laws to enforce. Cops make these decisions
every day.

TM
--
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[ma...@netmanage.com]

In Article the police as political instruments ,
doper <do...@inner.city.net> wrote:

> smi...@tiac.net (samson.f.mischkind) wrote:
>
>
> >So it is very hard not to dislike the police when one feels that certain
> >laws are so completely unjust that one cannot even imagine how a human
> >with any decency or intelligence could actually bring themselves to
> >enforce them. I just can't help but cringe when I imagine that anyone
> >could actually choose this line of work.
>
>
> I get mad at anyone who is unwilling to think for
> himself. We don't want cops who were "just following
> orders." We don't want robocops, we want leo's who
> grew up where they work and want to protect and be a
> part of their communities. We don't want military police.
>

> Police in the uS are not respected because all we see
> them do is hassle people over things like smoking

> marijuana, driving too fast, paying our automobile

> registration, ad nauseum, when there are obviously more
> important things for them to do. And the punishments for

> victimless drug crimes are so cruel and disproportionate
> that no decent human being could be a part of that system.
>

> We don't see you as our protectors, we see you as the
> muscle behind a government that violates our common law
> rights of property and passage, tax collectors, bounty
> hunters who work on commission.

I guess it is all a matter of perspective. In every dealing I
have had with the police, I have never had a problem. A couple
of times I have been on the "wrong" end of things (traffic tickets,
etc). Simply being honest and straightforward with them made the
situation a calm and civil (if not exactly pleasant) experiance.
Here is how my last traffic stop went:

"Hi there. Do yo know why I stopped you?"
"Yeah, you got me, I was driving 70. Sorry."
"Well, it is early Sunday morning, and there isn't much traffic,
but there are these blind hills, and you might not be able to
stop in time going that fast if they are obstructed."
"Yeah, I guess that's true".
"OK. I'm not going to write you up for 70, 'cuz that'll red-flag
your insurance company. I'm going to write you up for 65 instead."
"Thanks!"

It's not hard to be civil, and he *did* have a point about why the limit
was what it was in that area.

These people are basicly social garbagemen. We pay them to "clean up"
the messes left behind by the worst of society. Since that is what they
usually have to deal with, by training and inclination they will quickly
ramp up on "attitude" if you give them any trouble. On the other hand, it
is probably a relief to them to deal with a calm, rational, and civil
person once in a while, and they will usually gratefully respond in kind.

Another embarrasing example from my past: I used to live with a pothead.
By personal inclination, I didn't go much in for it, but by the same
token I didn't care what he did, either.(Unlike our illustrious President,
I admit I inhaled once or twice. I also have gotten drunk a few times, and
in my personal opinion, the latter is far, far more dangerous. But anyway...)
He got into the habit of leaving his paraphenalia on the coffee table in
the living room.

At the same time, I was going to the gym early in the morning with a female
friend of mine, whom I would pick up at her house around 5:30AM. One day
my car broke down in front of her house, and I had to walk back home and
call work to tell them I would be late. In the meantime, her neighbor, a
paranoid woman who called the police about twice a week, called in to report
"strange men picking up women at all hours of the night! I think they are
prostitutes!!"

The police dutifully responded, traced my licence plate on my broken down
car, and went to my house to check up on me. I answered the door, surprised
to see a cop there.

"Are you Matthew Nichols?"
"Yes..."
"Can I speak to you a minute?"
"Sure," I said, completely forgetting about my roomate's tendancy to leave
pot, snippers, bongs, etc. strewn all over the living room coffee table,
"come on in!"

He looked around cursorily, as you might expect, and immediately saw the
stuff on the table. "What's this?? Oh, it's your pot".

My heart stopped. Visions of being hauled off to jail danced in my head.

"Ohmygod. That belongs to my roomate" I said, immediatly realizing how
lame that sounded. I was horrified.

"Hmmm. Well, anyway, we were called by this woman who..." and he proceded
to tell me about how this woman called the police all the time, and how
they didn't really expect to find anything wrong. I told him about my car
breaking down, and how I went to the gym with my friend early in the morning.
(all the while sweating about the pot on the table). He chatted amiably about
the woman, what gyms we went to, etc. for a few minutes.

Then he said, "Now, about this pot. I know it's no big deal, but I would
be remiss in my duties if we didn't do something about it. There's no
growing going on in here is there??" "No sir." I said. "Mind if I look
around?" Since he was already in the house, and seeing the worst of it,
I said, "Sure." I was wondering how I was going to explain to my boss that
I would need a few days off to go to jail.

He glanced in the closets (looking for hydroponic setups, he said), and
came back out and looked again at the little bag of pot and assorted
paraphenalia on the coffee table.

"OK, We can do two things. I can write you a ticket for the pot, which
will cost you about $190, since it is under an ounce in quantity, and
by California law is considered a 'personal stash'. Or, I can forget it,
if we run the stuff down the garbage grinder."

Breathing an immense sigh of relief (I had no idea what the laws were),
I told him, "I'll pull the switch!" He laughed, and watched as I gladly
ran the pot down the drain. (My roomate had gotten it for free from a
friend who's computer he had fixed anyway, so he didn't even loose
any money.)

The point is, I was civil and cooperative, and as a result was treated
with tolerance and friendlyness. I didn't act like a criminal, nor was
I combative or abusive, I didn't rant and rave about my rights and how
the cop should interpret the law. As a result, I didn't even get a ticket.

I keep that memory in mind when dealing with cops. It makes things go
much easyer. It is not too much to remember that, in the most part,
they are not monsters or stormtroopers. They are people, and citizens,
just like the rest of us.

The place to fight abuse of rights is in the courts and the legislature,
not at the level of the avarage street cop.

-Matt

[Bill]

In article <544bto$d...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, t...@ix.netcom.com(Tom
Potter) wrote:

>
>For every person, and family, that has been severely
>harmed by an addiction to drugs, at least ten have
>been destroyed by the criminal justice system due
>to court costs, jail time, loss of income, stimatized, etc.
>And the whole fiasco costs the innocent taxpayers billions
>of dollars every year.

This is all just too funny for words. You are saying that we should just
stop having police, stop using the courts because when people are forced
to pay the penalty for breaking the law it destroys families? that is
really funny.

At times I think of having a national police on strike week. Give the
thugs a week to make life hell and then we will see how much we appreciate
the guy on the beat.

I am beginning to believe folks to cotton to this libertarian nonsense
have all been lobotimized. Simple answers for simple minds. Vote
Libertarian.

[Dave Cinege]

In <326aa87d...@news.alt.net>, pana...@juno.com (Usenet's Panache) writes:
>On 17 Oct 1996 00:25:17 GMT, doper <do...@inner.city.net> uttered
>these pearls of wisdom:
>

>>Police in the uS are not respected because all we see
>>them do is hassle people over things like smoking

>>marijuana
>
>Eh. Pot should be legalized.
>
>>driving too fast
>
>Excessive speed causes accidents.

Can you define that?

>Especially in urban centers.
>What's wrong with preventing accidents?

Nothing......I'm all for a gaggle of pigging that run up and hold the ladder
while you are painting your house.....

>>paying our automobile registration
>
>Do you think upkeep of the roads is free? And if payment wasn't
>mandatory, do you think people would just donate money?

That money does not go towards the roads.

>>And the punishments for
>>victimless drug crimes are so cruel and disproportionate
>>that no decent human being could be a part of that system.
>

>Victimless?!? HAH!
>
>Who's being naive now? You haven't seen entire families torn apart by
>drugs, have you? Entire lives destroyed.
>

>Victimless indeed. May I suggest you ride with a patrol officer a
>couple of times and see exactly HOW victimless it is.

Yup, you're a piggie.

>>We don't see you as our protectors, we see you as the
>>muscle behind a government that violates our common law
>>rights of property and passage, tax collectors, bounty
>>hunters who work on commission.
>

>Hey. I've come to expect most people to dislike cops. As a grizzled
>old sergeant once told me "You only deal with four types of people -
>The Sick, The Psychos, The Selfish and The Unlucky." And he was
>right. Nobody likes getting a ticket. And nobody likes getting
>arrested when they break the law.

4 types? I guess cops fit into the sick category.

>Now, in a perfect world, people would accept responsibility for their
>actions and strive to improve themselves. Hell, in a perfect world,
>we wouldn't NEED cops.

We don't need cops. The government needs cops.

>But it's always easier to blame somebody else when you're caught and
>it's time to face up to your responsibilities. "Damn cops. Fucking
>pigs."

But you're not letting them handle their responsibilities. You are making an
arbitrary decision that they have done something wrong, and are going to
punish them for it.

>Anyway, WE don't right the laws. Your elected representatives do.
>When we were sworn into office, we swore to uphold the laws of the
>community we were in.

The just following orders defence did not work it Nuremberg, and it does
work for me.

>Nowhere in this oath of office does it say that we can decide that we
>don't like a certain law, and not enforce it.

Oh yes it does. "To uphold and defend the Constitution"

Have you ever even read it?

Lemme ask you this.....do you enforce gun laws?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dave 'Kill a Cop' Cinege (aka Psychopath #3) --- Super Genius at Large
"Just cause ya got the power, that don't mean ya got the right!" - Lemmy
http://www.psychosis.com/

Harry Browne for President in '96 Libertarian Party 1-800-682-1776
http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/ http://www.lp.org/

[Dave Cinege]

In <545i90$l...@news-central.tiac.net>, fire...@tiac.net writes:
>doper <do...@inner.city.net> wrote:
>
>>smi...@tiac.net (samson.f.mischkind) wrote:
>
>
>>>So it is very hard not to dislike the police when one feels that certain
>>>laws are so completely unjust that one cannot even imagine how a human
>>>with any decency or intelligence could actually bring themselves to
>>>enforce them. I just can't help but cringe when I imagine that anyone
>>>could actually choose this line of work.
>
>
>>I get mad at anyone who is unwilling to think for
>>himself. We don't want cops who were "just following
>>orders." We don't want robocops, we want leo's who
>>grew up where they work and want to protect and be a
>>part of their communities. We don't want military police.
>

>I really really LOVE reading some of this stuff cluelessness abounds.
>Police and can do think for themselves as much as any other person
>does. And many probably even most cops work where they live and if
>not tend to be part of both communities.
>

>>Police in the uS are not respected because all we see
>>them do is hassle people over things like smoking

>>marijuana, driving too fast, paying our automobile
>>registration,
>

>Lets see. smoking pot illegal by order of legislature and approved by
>the SC. So police enforcing the law is hassling.

Violation of the Constitution and the common law. It is null and void. It is
colorable when enforced.

>Speed limits set for saftey by the state/county and by the Federal
>government clearly marked. Police enforcing the law is hassling.

Violation of the Constitution and the common law. It is null and void. It is
colorable when enforced.

>Paying for registration and inspection to prove the vehicle is safe
>for use around the public. So police enforcing the law is hassling.

Violation of the Constitution and the common law. It is null and void. It is
colorable when enforced.

>I'm seeing a theme here police doing their job enforcing the law isn't
>what you want. Guess what those laws can be changed if you talk to
>your legislators and the majority of america agrees.

Freedom comes from birith, not the 'privilege's' people in high places
decide you SHOULD have. The purpose of the law is to enumerate the powers
the government has when you infringe upon the rights of other citizens.
The victimless crime laws you enforce are nothing more then a means of
oppressive big government control. They are immoral. They are
unconstitional. And may you rot in the fithest deepest darkest hole for
initiating force against those that have not harmed you or any other person.

>Other then that
>police have one primary job..ENFORCE the law.
>If you see them
>harrasing people who have voilated the law then they are doing the job
>they were hired for.

Which is why they are ALL an immediate threat to all citizens and worthly of
preventative self-defense through execution.

>If you obey the law they <gasp> won't bother
>you.

Some people have a problem with being a slave. Some people do not buckle
from the threat of coercion.

>>ad nauseum, when there are obviously more

>>important things for them to do. And the punishments for

>>victimless drug crimes are so cruel and disproportionate
>>that no decent human being could be a part of that system.
>

>That is your opinion and has nothing to do with the police. Take it
>up with the law makers or don't break the laws you can't go around in
>life blaming everyone else you want to break the law then you better
>be ready for the consequences.

And so should you........

>>We don't see you as our protectors, we see you as the
>>muscle behind a government that violates our common law
>>rights of property and passage, tax collectors, bounty
>>hunters who work on commission.
>

>Right sure commision you seen law enforcement salaries of late? Of
>course if you voilate that law we aren't going to be your protectors
>we are sworn to uphold the LAW which the majority of the people
>through the representives the elect have willed.

The majority and congress have no authority to legislate my freedom and
rights away.

[Tom Potter]

In <545jjt$m...@news-central.tiac.net> fire...@tiac.net writes:
>
>t...@ix.netcom.com(Tom Potter) wrote:
>
>>In <326aa87d...@news.alt.net> pana...@juno.com (Usenet's
Panache)
>>writes:
>>>
>>>On 17 Oct 1996 00:25:17 GMT, doper <do...@inner.city.net> uttered
>>>these pearls of wisdom:
>>>
>>>>Police in the uS are not respected because all we see
>>>>them do is hassle people over things like smoking
>>>>marijuana
>>>
>>>Eh. Pot should be legalized.
>>>
>>>>driving too fast
>>>
>>>Excessive speed causes accidents. Especially in urban centers.
>>>What's wrong with preventing accidents?
>
>>Let's be truthful.
>>Most traffic tickets are given to provide INCOME
>>to the general funds of the communities, and to
>>HASSLE the undisireables who come into the community.
>
>Ahh enter Tom's secret insider knowlage of the whole world. Yes
>traffic tickets provide income. However they are given to hassle
>those who break the law, local, forgeiner, desired or otherwise. Lets
>be truthful you exceeded the speed limit you got caught your whining.

Whose whining? I look at speed trap tickets as the
cost of living in a corrupt society.

>
>>I have never had an accident yet I have received many
>>tickets, almost all in speed traps in states and
>>communities notorious for it.
>
>And you kept on speeding anyway instead of following the posted speed
>limit. My god what a tragedy of justice. What's the old saying
>better to be thought of a follow then open your mouth and prove it. I
>mean how STUPID can you be then going into an area you know has speed
>traps and speeding. Hell I'd double your ticket if you told me that.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And these tells us a lot about the typical law enforcement mentality.

>>>>paying our automobile registration
>>>
>>>Do you think upkeep of the roads is free? And if payment wasn't
>>>mandatory, do you think people would just donate money?
>
>>If a state was interested in good will, and providing
>>"the pursuit of happiness" for it's citizens, it would
>>give warnings, not tickets for trivial violations.
>>States and law enforcement like to use trival violations
>>in order to throw their weight around, and let the
>>peasants know who is running things. ( The government )
>
>Let me guess your favorite show is the X-files isn't it? Depending on
>your record and the violation we might give a warning...heck I know of
>a time we actually gave a speeder a police escort cause he wanted to
>get to the hospital his daughter had been hurt somehow and he was
>rushing from work. So a cruiser lit up and cleared the way with him
>behind dropped him at the hospital with a warning. In other words as
>with anything it's the individual

I don't watch TV except for educational programs.
So why did you allow the speeder to break the law?
Aren'r you suppose to enforce the law?

>>>>And the punishments for
>>>>victimless drug crimes are so cruel and disproportionate
>>>>that no decent human being could be a part of that system.
>>>
>>>Victimless?!? HAH!
>>>
>>>Who's being naive now? You haven't seen entire families torn apart
by
>>>drugs, have you? Entire lives destroyed.
>
>>For every person, and family, that has been severely
>>harmed by an addiction to drugs, at least ten have
>>been destroyed by the criminal justice system due
>>to court costs, jail time, loss of income, stimatized, etc.
>>And the whole fiasco costs the innocent taxpayers billions
>>of dollars every year.
>
>Ummm okay and what should we do with the criminals?

Most criminals are products of society,
and almost all of those are products
of gpvernment. Victimless cimes, and transfered
aggression because of holtility built up because
of government actions, rather than the actions of
family, friends or the society at large. Examples,
the riots of the 60's, the LA riot, the Oklahome
bombing, the shootings at the White House, etc.

I wonder how often this senario happens, and when it
does, I wonder how the kid fell down the stairs.
Also, if the kids perceived cops as just doing their
duty in the most humane way, they would be far less
prone to retaliate. As a father, teacher, landlord,
and employer, I have found that all offenders are
willing to take their medicine if this is done ate
a rate that lets their body chemicals adjust, and
you do not threaten them unduly, or take away their
self-respect.

>>>Now, in a perfect world, people would accept responsibility for
their
>>>actions and strive to improve themselves. Hell, in a perfect world,
>>>we wouldn't NEED cops.
>>>
>>>But it's always easier to blame somebody else when you're caught and
>>>it's time to face up to your responsibilities. "Damn cops. Fucking
>>>pigs."
>>>
>>>Anyway, WE don't right the laws. Your elected representatives do.
>>>When we were sworn into office, we swore to uphold the laws of the
>>>community we were in.
>>>
>>>Nowhere in this oath of office does it say that we can decide that
we
>>>don't like a certain law, and not enforce it.
>
>>Bullshit. I know cops, and I read a book written
>>by a cop once, that told how to avoid getting
>>tickets.
>
>> Also, although there are more alcoholic
>>cops percentage wise than any other profession,
>
>For the record EMS has the highest alcholic rate just thought I'd let
>you know.
>
>> yet I would be willing to bet big money that percentage wise
>>they don't receive the percentage of drunk driving
>>( And other ) tickets that other professions do.
>
>Maybe cause the tend to get rides home?

No, I know a few cops who drink heavily,
and they drive home drunk and never get tickets.

>>Also, cops have become institutionalized and
>>self-serving like most government employees.
>>You are more apt to fins a cop giving out
>>traffic tickets in a safe neighborhood during
>>daylight hours, rather than patrolling high crime
>>areas during high crime times.
>
>Hmmm I'm sure you have some evidence of this?

Just look at the duty roster of any large city.

>>Law enforcement, like public education, is largely
>>an expensive, sick joke on the tax payers and
>>the people in general. Some cities have as many
>>as fifty cops per square mile, yet they do as much
>>to cause crime ( By transfered aggression, etc. )
>>then they to inhibit crime. In most inner cities,
>>the safest places ( Hospitals, companies and
>>shopping centers ) are patrolled by private cops.
>
>Ummm yeah right hospital safe? you haven't spent much time in ER's
>have you. Wanna know why they appear safe there is ALWAY
>cops/firefighter/EMS personell in the building to help when things get
>out of hand. Shopping centers safe.... 14 reported kidnappings in 4
>months and all near shopping centers. Yep Safe there.

On a per capita, per hour basis the areas patrolled by
private cops are safer than the areas patrolled by government
cops. Of course, there are more crimes in shopping centers
because more people go there.

Tom Potter http://pobox.com/~tdp

[Tom Potter]

In <Forum.8455810...@mattn.bandley1.netmanage.com>

This is standard operating procedure of cops when
issuing a ticket. After you have paid a few hundred dollars
in fines, and look back on the experiences, I am sure that
most people will discover that they were endangering
no one, and they were simply victims of another
government con job, designed to get money into the
general fund.

Very few people rank and rave.
Almost everyone keeps their mouth shut, and kisses
ass at the right time. Now let's suppose the cop who
came in your house didn't like your looks, or race,
or the way you dressed, etc. You would be a convicted
felon today, and your family and you would have been
subjected to a long period of suffering and enormous
expense.

> I keep that memory in mind when dealing with cops. It makes
things go
> much easyer. It is not too much to remember that, in the most
part,
> they are not monsters or stormtroopers. They are people, and
citizens,
> just like the rest of us.
>
> The place to fight abuse of rights is in the courts and the
legislature,
> not at the level of the avarage street cop.
>
> -Matt

Tom Potter http://pobox.com/~tdp

[Hemp Man]

pana...@juno.com (Usenet's Panache) wrote:

>On 17 Oct 1996 00:25:17 GMT, doper <do...@inner.city.net> uttered
>these pearls of wisdom:

>>Police in the uS are not respected because all we see

>>them do is hassle people over things like smoking

>>marijuana

>Eh. Pot should be legalized.

Thank you.

>>driving too fast

>Excessive speed causes accidents. Especially in urban centers.
>What's wrong with preventing accidents?

Nothing, unless while you were preventing a fender bender, some moron
too drunk to hold a job breaks into my house and steals a bunch of
stuff to suport himself.

>>paying our automobile registration

>Do you think upkeep of the roads is free? And if payment wasn't
>mandatory, do you think people would just donate money?

See above response.

>>And the punishments for
>>victimless drug crimes are so cruel and disproportionate
>>that no decent human being could be a part of that system.

>Victimless?!? HAH!

>Who's being naive now? You haven't seen entire families torn apart by
>drugs, have you? Entire lives destroyed.

>Victimless indeed. May I suggest you ride with a patrol officer a

>couple of times and see exactly HOW victimless it is.

I have taken the ride on several occasions and.I have also worked as a
drug counselor. I've seen more tradgedy caused by breaking up families
over draconian drug laws than by any other drug related activity.

>>We don't see you as our protectors, we see you as the
>>muscle behind a government that violates our common law
>>rights of property and passage, tax collectors, bounty
>>hunters who work on commission.

>Hey. I've come to expect most people to dislike cops. As a grizzled

>old sergeant once told me "You only deal with four types of people -
>The Sick, The Psychos, The Selfish and The Unlucky." And he was
>right. Nobody likes getting a ticket. And nobody likes getting
>arrested when they break the law.

>Now, in a perfect world, people would accept responsibility for their

>actions and strive to improve themselves. Hell, in a perfect world,
>we wouldn't NEED cops.

In a perfent world, the laws would not presime an inability for most
people to have personal responsibility. It is in this presumption that
the laws are wrong and actually contribute more to the dissolution of
personal responsibility. After all, if it is presumed that you are
automatically not able to exhibit reponsibility, why bother?

>But it's always easier to blame somebody else when you're caught and
>it's time to face up to your responsibilities. "Damn cops. Fucking
>pigs."

Awe, are your feelings hurt over an accurate portrayal? Too fucking
bad. If cops were not driven to seek power over people by arbitrarily
enforcing laws they know are morally wrong, they folow the same line
of thought that got Lt. Calley in so much trouble in Viet Nam.

>Anyway, WE don't right the laws. Your elected representatives do.
>When we were sworn into office, we swore to uphold the laws of the
>community we were in.

Actually, you are first sworn to uphold the Constitution. Since a
little thought would let you know that, regardless of politicization
by congress or the supreme court, many of the laws you enforce are
unconstitutional, you break your oat by enforcing them.

>Nowhere in this oath of office does it say that we can decide that we
>don't like a certain law, and not enforce it.

And yet it is done every day, when you look the other way when a cop
butt-buddy is speeing or DUI or beating Rodney for speeding or .......

[doper]

t...@ix.netcom.com(Tom Potter) wrote:
>pana...@juno.com (Usenet's Panache) writes:

>>doper <do...@inner.city.net> uttered

>>>Police in the uS are not respected because all we see
>>>them do is hassle people

>Let's be truthful.

>Most traffic tickets are given to provide INCOME
>to the general funds of the communities, and to
>HASSLE the undisireables who come into the community.

>If a state was interested in good will, and providing
>"the pursuit of happiness" for it's citizens, it would
>give warnings, not tickets for trivial violations.
>States and law enforcement like to use trival violations
>in order to throw their weight around, and let the
>peasants know who is running things. ( The government )

Is it really necessary for people to be afraid of their
government in order for us to have a safe society? That's
a very high price.

>>>We don't see you as our protectors, we see you as the
>>>muscle behind a government that violates our common law
>>>rights of property and passage,

.. seizes our property to fund their own agenda (RICO),
bypasses the exclusionary rules for evidence ('good faith'
instead of warrant), teaches children to 'narc' on their
parents, becoming orphans by doing so ...

These are things from Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union.

>>Now, in a perfect world, people would accept responsibility for their
>>actions and strive to improve themselves.

Why don't you accept responsibility for yours,
and think about the person you put away for ten
years on a drug possession charge next time
you cash a paycheck?

[Hemp Man]

mild...@concentric.net (Bill) wrote:

>In article <544bto$d...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, t...@ix.netcom.com(Tom
>Potter) wrote:

>>
>>For every person, and family, that has been severely
>>harmed by an addiction to drugs, at least ten have
>>been destroyed by the criminal justice system due
>>to court costs, jail time, loss of income, stimatized, etc.
>>And the whole fiasco costs the innocent taxpayers billions
>>of dollars every year.

>This is all just too funny for words. You are saying that we should just

>stop having police, stop using the courts because when people are forced
>to pay the penalty for breaking the law it destroys families? that is
>really funny.

Let's see. The major effect of criminalizing a pot smoker is that the
court cost, stigmatizaton, jail time, etc. destroy his family. Hm,
seems like a great reason to keep the law to me, should I have had a
lobotomy, as you seem to like to say.

>At times I think of having a national police on strike week. Give the
>thugs a week to make life hell and then we will see how much we appreciate
>the guy on the beat.

Or perhaps, more importantly, let the American public see just how
little effect the police actually have. Please, do this. Maybe we can
finally get rid of some needless nazis. Oh, yeah, and please get a
real job, don't turn to the crimes you know so well.

>I am beginning to believe folks to cotton to this libertarian nonsense
>have all been lobotimized. Simple answers for simple minds. Vote
>Libertarian.

I don't have to "cotton" to anything. I know just how far the power
hungry police would like to militarize themselves, and just how truely
useless they really are. There was a roadblock just a few blocks from
my neighborhood a few nights back and while they sat with thier thumbs
up thier butts (no drunks arrested that night at that roadblock) there
was a rape and four burglaries right under thier noses. If they had
been actually hunting for crime instead of waiting for those stupid
criminals to just waltz up to thier real efective roadblock and turn
themselves in, they would have been actually doing thier job.
Cops don't need a lobotomy, they were born brain damaged.

[samson.f.mischkind]

mild...@concentric.net (Bill) wrote:

> I am beginning to believe folks to cotton to this libertarian nonsense
> have all been lobotimized. Simple answers for simple minds. Vote
> Libertarian.

Though I disagree with much of what you say, this last bit is perfect. Can
I use it in a .sig?

[fire...@tiac.net]

dci...@superlink.net (Dave Cinege) wrote:

By who's defination? Not the Majority for the american public or
action would have been taken. You cannot dictate for the people what
is and is not Constitutional Nor is this something to take issue with
the police about but with YOUR elected representives get the laws
changed if you can get the people of america to agree with you and the
police will happily deal with other problems. However untill such
time as the people of the United State of Amercia do so ordain
otherwise the present law stands and is within the Constitution deemed
so by those empowered by law to judge so.

>>Speed limits set for saftey by the state/county and by the Federal
>>government clearly marked. Police enforcing the law is hassling.

>Violation of the Constitution and the common law. It is null and void. It is
>colorable when enforced.

Speed limits are VERY Constitutional and are there to protect the
right to live and to optimise liberty.. you have accidence they cause
traffic traffic is an impediment to liberty. Get a clue.

>>Paying for registration and inspection to prove the vehicle is safe
>>for use around the public. So police enforcing the law is hassling.

>Violation of the Constitution and the common law. It is null and void. It is
>colorable when enforced.

Perhaps perhaps not take issue with your elected rep and leave the
police to doing their duty as chartered and requested.

>>I'm seeing a theme here police doing their job enforcing the law isn't
>>what you want. Guess what those laws can be changed if you talk to
>>your legislators and the majority of america agrees.

>Freedom comes from birith, not the 'privilege's' people in high places
>decide you SHOULD have. The purpose of the law is to enumerate the powers
>the government has when you infringe upon the rights of other citizens.
>The victimless crime laws you enforce are nothing more then a means of
>oppressive big government control. They are immoral. They are
>unconstitional. And may you rot in the fithest deepest darkest hole for
>initiating force against those that have not harmed you or any other person.

<laugh> rot in the deepest darkest hole?? Sorry been there done that.
I've seen the results of your victimless crimes daily for the past 8
years not as a police officer <it seems you moronic bashers can't
read> but as a rescue officer I've seen the lung cancer, consumption,
the overdoses the bad trips the birth defects the fighting shooting
stabbing sick diseased etc etc ad nausem for 8 years Mr. Cigne and if
you think you your adled brain pig headed arrogance for one second you
know whats going on think agian. Is government to blame for our
problems?? NO police NO the man NO. You wanna know who's at fault?
Look in the mirror Mr. Cigne people who think only for and about
themselves. You all come to this group and bash cops left right and
sideways calling them Nazis. Well guess what the cops did make
millions off selling tabacco to kids upping the addictive qualities
and thriving off of the addiction. The police didn't say well I want
a high paying job and all the good things in life who cares about the
community. The police aren't the ones making parents use TV's
computers and any single other item they can as babysitters. The
Police didn't force the drugs down your throat or invite the gangs and
scum to supply it to you. No sir police are not the culprit of the
crimes you mention. Self serving pin heads like you brought this on.
Wake up and look around Mr Cigne the police are not rich people the
police did not put corrupt officials into office.

>>Other then that
>>police have one primary job..ENFORCE the law.
>>If you see them
>>harrasing people who have voilated the law then they are doing the job
>>they were hired for.

>Which is why they are ALL an immediate threat to all citizens and worthly of
>preventative self-defense through execution.

Ohh of course the LOGICAL and Constitutional approach. "Shall provide
for -LIFE-, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" Yet you would
advocate killing them.. Label yourself traitor then

>>If you obey the law they <gasp> won't bother
>>you.

>Some people have a problem with being a slave. Some people do not buckle
>from the threat of coercion.

Slavery?? do you know what slavery was or is Cigne?? You have a say
you have rights you can do something about your position. Slaves
could not do that. If you are a Slave Cigne no one but yourself made
you that way.

>>>ad nauseum, when there are obviously more
>>>important things for them to do. And the punishments for
>>>victimless drug crimes are so cruel and disproportionate
>>>that no decent human being could be a part of that system.
>>
>>That is your opinion and has nothing to do with the police. Take it
>>up with the law makers or don't break the laws you can't go around in
>>life blaming everyone else you want to break the law then you better
>>be ready for the consequences.

>And so should you........

Please

>>>We don't see you as our protectors, we see you as the
>>>muscle behind a government that violates our common law
>>>rights of property and passage, tax collectors, bounty
>>>hunters who work on commission.
>>
>>Right sure commision you seen law enforcement salaries of late? Of
>>course if you voilate that law we aren't going to be your protectors
>>we are sworn to uphold the LAW which the majority of the people
>>through the representives the elect have willed.

>The majority and congress have no authority to legislate my freedom and
>rights away.

Your rights end where someone elses begins. Guess what this country
is based on the good of the many not of the few so yes the majority
can do just that if you view murder for example as your right

[fire...@tiac.net]

t...@ix.netcom.com(Tom Potter) wrote:

Your whining right there. You broke the law you got caught and you
call it corrupt did someone FOOL you into speeding?

>>
>>>I have never had an accident yet I have received many
>>>tickets, almost all in speed traps in states and
>>>communities notorious for it.
>>
>>And you kept on speeding anyway instead of following the posted speed
>>limit. My god what a tragedy of justice. What's the old saying
>>better to be thought of a follow then open your mouth and prove it. I
>>mean how STUPID can you be then going into an area you know has speed
>>traps and speeding. Hell I'd double your ticket if you told me that.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>And these tells us a lot about the typical law enforcement mentality.

Does it?? can't read can you I don't write tickets. In fact I wrote
that as if I was just anyother person. It's call the reward for
walking into your own stupidity.

>>>>>paying our automobile registration
>>>>
>>>>Do you think upkeep of the roads is free? And if payment wasn't
>>>>mandatory, do you think people would just donate money?
>>
>>>If a state was interested in good will, and providing
>>>"the pursuit of happiness" for it's citizens, it would
>>>give warnings, not tickets for trivial violations.
>>>States and law enforcement like to use trival violations
>>>in order to throw their weight around, and let the
>>>peasants know who is running things. ( The government )
>>
>>Let me guess your favorite show is the X-files isn't it? Depending on
>>your record and the violation we might give a warning...heck I know of
>>a time we actually gave a speeder a police escort cause he wanted to
>>get to the hospital his daughter had been hurt somehow and he was
>>rushing from work. So a cruiser lit up and cleared the way with him
>>behind dropped him at the hospital with a warning. In other words as
>>with anything it's the individual

>I don't watch TV except for educational programs.
>So why did you allow the speeder to break the law?
>Aren'r you suppose to enforce the law?

Fortunatly for the invidual my responsibilty is to public saftey First
law enforcement second. Notice a warning was issued person had a 100%
clean lisence no priors of anysort and was only 10 miles above the
limit. Had the factors been different the responce mostlikly would
have been different.

>>>>>And the punishments for
>>>>>victimless drug crimes are so cruel and disproportionate
>>>>>that no decent human being could be a part of that system.
>>>>
>>>>Victimless?!? HAH!
>>>>
>>>>Who's being naive now? You haven't seen entire families torn apart
>by
>>>>drugs, have you? Entire lives destroyed.
>>
>>>For every person, and family, that has been severely
>>>harmed by an addiction to drugs, at least ten have
>>>been destroyed by the criminal justice system due
>>>to court costs, jail time, loss of income, stimatized, etc.
>>>And the whole fiasco costs the innocent taxpayers billions
>>>of dollars every year.
>>
>>Ummm okay and what should we do with the criminals?

>Most criminals are products of society,
>and almost all of those are products
>of gpvernment. Victimless cimes, and transfered
>aggression because of holtility built up because
>of government actions, rather than the actions of
>family, friends or the society at large. Examples,
>the riots of the 60's, the LA riot, the Oklahome
>bombing, the shootings at the White House, etc.

Man you are 100 percent out of it aren't you? People are not
criminals because of the government or anything other then themselves.
You have a choice you can decide <no it's NOT always easy which is why
there is something called mercy> what you are going to do. No one
made the people of LA riot no one made someone bomb the Oklahoma
Federal building. People choose to do that. Do you remember the
priest who protected the motorist on the street? He was as oppressed
as any of the others in the community as outraged as the others.. Yet
he did not riot? You cannot make excuses for such things besides you
still haven't answered what to do with them.

You just don't get it do you?? The kid was not pushed he fell he lost
motor coordination and fell all kinds of drugs do that to ya Alcohol
for example. Mix a few and your and accident waiting to happen.

>Also, if the kids perceived cops as just doing their
>duty in the most humane way, they would be far less
>prone to retaliate.

Bullshit. It's not just a kid who does it adults too. It wouldn't
have made a differnece if I was the persons best friend he was so
screwed in the head he would have attacked anyone. And that's the
blasted point there is no easy answer. How often do you think cops
get the chance to be humane?? when we do you don't think we are or
try to be??? It winds up being the same thing. How often have
firefighters oppressed you? Ever seen firemen oppress anyone?? so why
shoot one in the back while he's trying to save lives?

>As a father, teacher, landlord,
>and employer, I have found that all offenders are
>willing to take their medicine if this is done ate
>a rate that lets their body chemicals adjust, and
>you do not threaten them unduly, or take away their
>self-respect.

Yeah right My stading offer stands come play in NYC and see how long
that lasts.

Really I've never let anyone past me.. maybe you should do something
about it.

>>>Also, cops have become institutionalized and
>>>self-serving like most government employees.
>>>You are more apt to fins a cop giving out
>>>traffic tickets in a safe neighborhood during
>>>daylight hours, rather than patrolling high crime
>>>areas during high crime times.
>>
>>Hmmm I'm sure you have some evidence of this?

>Just look at the duty roster of any large city.

I have and do one of the Largest in the world NYC...guess what....your
WRONG!

>>>Law enforcement, like public education, is largely
>>>an expensive, sick joke on the tax payers and
>>>the people in general. Some cities have as many
>>>as fifty cops per square mile, yet they do as much
>>>to cause crime ( By transfered aggression, etc. )
>>>then they to inhibit crime. In most inner cities,
>>>the safest places ( Hospitals, companies and
>>>shopping centers ) are patrolled by private cops.
>>
>>Ummm yeah right hospital safe? you haven't spent much time in ER's
>>have you. Wanna know why they appear safe there is ALWAY
>>cops/firefighter/EMS personell in the building to help when things get
>>out of hand. Shopping centers safe.... 14 reported kidnappings in 4
>>months and all near shopping centers. Yep Safe there.

>On a per capita, per hour basis the areas patrolled by
>private cops are safer than the areas patrolled by government
>cops. Of course, there are more crimes in shopping centers
>because more people go there.

Lets see the stats tom...you won't find any that really back you up
especially since your also talking closed enviornments and not open
areas of miles and miles and the crimes the private cops deal with are
far more limited.

>Tom Potter http://pobox.com/~tdp

[Jerome Bigge]

On Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:18:58 -0700, mild...@concentric.net (Bill)
wrote:

>In article <544bto$d...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, t...@ix.netcom.com(Tom
>Potter) wrote:
>
>
>>

>>For every person, and family, that has been severely
>>harmed by an addiction to drugs, at least ten have
>>been destroyed by the criminal justice system due
>>to court costs, jail time, loss of income, stimatized, etc.
>>And the whole fiasco costs the innocent taxpayers billions
>>of dollars every year.
>

>This is all just too funny for words. You are saying that we should just
>stop having police, stop using the courts because when people are forced
>to pay the penalty for breaking the law it destroys families? that is
>really funny.
>

>At times I think of having a national police on strike week. Give the
>thugs a week to make life hell and then we will see how much we appreciate
>the guy on the beat.

If the police went on "strike", everyone who owns a handgun would
carry it. The criminals would most likely decide it was far "safer"
to just wait until the police returned to their duties and made sure
that their victims were once again disarmed and vulnerable. Traffic
accidents might increase a bit, although most likely not that much...
Stop and consider that if there were no police, criminal act ivies
would become so dangerous that few would continue doing them.
It is my own opinion that the undesirable elements in our society are
"protected" by the police, not the honest citizens who greatly out-
number them. Gun control benefits the criminal, and governments.
Take away the government's policeman, and the criminal suddenly
becomes extremely vulnerable both in the commission of a crime and
from vigilantes. This last would drive the gangs so fast from the
streets that it would be unbelievable. A few "competent riflemen"
would be all that would be necessary using military sniping techiques.
It is the police that are the criminal's "protection", not the other
way around. The "law" is what "protects" the criminal from you.

>I am beginning to believe folks to cotton to this libertarian nonsense
>have all been lobotimized. Simple answers for simple minds. Vote
>Libertarian.

Jerome Bigge (jbi...@novagate.com) NRA Life Member

[Dave Cinege]

In <mildbill-171...@news.concentric.net>, mild...@concentric.net (Bill) writes:
>In article <544bto$d...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, t...@ix.netcom.com(Tom
>Potter) wrote:
>
>
>>

>>For every person, and family, that has been severely
>>harmed by an addiction to drugs, at least ten have
>>been destroyed by the criminal justice system due
>>to court costs, jail time, loss of income, stimatized, etc.
>>And the whole fiasco costs the innocent taxpayers billions
>>of dollars every year.
>

>This is all just too funny for words. You are saying that we should just
>stop having police, stop using the courts because when people are forced
>to pay the penalty for breaking the law it destroys families? that is
>really funny.
>
>At times I think of having a national police on strike week. Give the
>thugs a week to make life hell and then we will see how much we appreciate
>the guy on the beat.
>

>I am beginning to believe folks to cotton to this libertarian nonsense
>have all been lobotimized. Simple answers for simple minds. Vote
>Libertarian.

You just don't get it...............It's all about freedom.

[Dave Cinege]

In <545jjt$m...@news-central.tiac.net>, fire...@tiac.net writes:
>t...@ix.netcom.com(Tom Potter) wrote:
>
>>In <326aa87d...@news.alt.net> pana...@juno.com (Usenet's Panache)
>>writes:
>>>
>>>On 17 Oct 1996 00:25:17 GMT, doper <do...@inner.city.net> uttered
>>>these pearls of wisdom:
>>>
>>>>Police in the uS are not respected because all we see
>>>>them do is hassle people over things like smoking
>>>>marijuana
>>>
>>>Eh. Pot should be legalized.
>>>
>>>>driving too fast
>>>
>>>Excessive speed causes accidents. Especially in urban centers.
>>>What's wrong with preventing accidents?
>
>>Let's be truthful.
>>Most traffic tickets are given to provide INCOME
>>to the general funds of the communities, and to
>>HASSLE the undisireables who come into the community.
>
>Ahh enter Tom's secret insider knowlage of the whole world. Yes
>traffic tickets provide income. However they are given to hassle
>those who break the law, local, forgeiner, desired or otherwise. Lets
>be truthful you exceeded the speed limit you got caught your whining.

And who the fuck are you to decide that limit!!1?!!?

>>I have never had an accident yet I have received many
>>tickets, almost all in speed traps in states and
>>communities notorious for it.
>
>And you kept on speeding anyway instead of following the posted speed
>limit. My god what a tragedy of justice. What's the old saying
>better to be thought of a follow then open your mouth and prove it. I
>mean how STUPID can you be then going into an area you know has speed
>traps and speeding. Hell I'd double your ticket if you told me that.
>Then again I don't give speeding tickets so I guess you lucked out.

And I'm sure you follow the limits, huh piggy? No? Oh that's right you're
special you KNOW whats best for the rest of us.

YOU SICK BASTARD EGO POWER FREAK! Rot! Rot!

>>>>paying our automobile registration
>>>
>>>Do you think upkeep of the roads is free? And if payment wasn't
>>>mandatory, do you think people would just donate money?
>
>>If a state was interested in good will, and providing
>>"the pursuit of happiness" for it's citizens, it would
>>give warnings, not tickets for trivial violations.
>>States and law enforcement like to use trival violations
>>in order to throw their weight around, and let the
>>peasants know who is running things. ( The government )
>
>Let me guess your favorite show is the X-files isn't it? Depending on
>your record and the violation we might give a warning...heck I know of
>a time we actually gave a speeder a police escort cause he wanted to
>get to the hospital his daughter had been hurt somehow and he was
>rushing from work. So a cruiser lit up and cleared the way with him
>behind dropped him at the hospital with a warning. In other words as
>with anything it's the individual

So you decided that time it was OK for him to break the law.
How nice of you.....are you always selective of your enforcment?
You know best after all....

>>>>And the punishments for
>>>>victimless drug crimes are so cruel and disproportionate
>>>>that no decent human being could be a part of that system.
>>>
>>>Victimless?!? HAH!
>>>
>>>Who's being naive now? You haven't seen entire families torn apart by
>>>drugs, have you? Entire lives destroyed.
>
>>For every person, and family, that has been severely
>>harmed by an addiction to drugs, at least ten have
>>been destroyed by the criminal justice system due
>>to court costs, jail time, loss of income, stimatized, etc.
>>And the whole fiasco costs the innocent taxpayers billions
>>of dollars every year.
>
>Ummm okay and what should we do with the criminals?

Have all the cops have a line up in a row and take a bullet to the back of
the head. That will get rid of 90% of the criminal right there.....

>>>Victimless indeed. May I suggest you ride with a patrol officer a
>>>couple of times and see exactly HOW victimless it is.
>
>>>>We don't see you as our protectors, we see you as the
>>>>muscle behind a government that violates our common law
>>>>rights of property and passage, tax collectors, bounty
>>>>hunters who work on commission.
>>>
>>>Hey. I've come to expect most people to dislike cops. As a grizzled
>>>old sergeant once told me "You only deal with four types of people -
>>>The Sick, The Psychos, The Selfish and The Unlucky." And he was
>>>right. Nobody likes getting a ticket. And nobody likes getting
>>>arrested when they break the law.
>
>>As a father, teacher, employer and landlord,
>>I never EXPECTED anyone to dislike me.
>>Do you know why? I treateded them all fairly
>>and with respect. I treated them as human beings
>>and never took away their self respect.
>
>Hmmmm Lessee I try and help a kid who's drugged out fell down a flight
>of stairs try to treat his wounds he wakes up and stabs me with a pair
>of sissors from my own belt <last time I left the bloodly things

HAHAHAHA Good! Too bad hie didn't finish the job!

>unlatched> how bout those wonderful folks who shoot firefighters in
>the back while fighting the blaze?

Oh sure happens all the time...

>Ohh yeah people just love
>everyone. Are you done with fantazy yet? Yes people need to be
>treated fairly you are 100% right but no it wouldn't make a bit of
>difference when it comes to perception of officers.

Nope, because we know evil when we see it.

Didn't prevent anything did you?

Well I guess you're fucking usless ; nothing a but a paid bully.

There are enough good seminarians to take your place, and they are given
free will by the courts to harass, rob, beat, and kill people like the cops
are. Be gone!!! At the very least, you are not economically viable....

[ma...@netmanage.com]

In Article Re: the police as political instruments , Tom Potter
<t...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> In <Forum.8455810...@mattn.bandley1.netmanage.com>
> ma...@netmanage.com writes:
> >

[snip]

>
> This is standard operating procedure of cops when
> issuing a ticket. After you have paid a few hundred dollars
> in fines, and look back on the experiences, I am sure that
> most people will discover that they were endangering
> no one, and they were simply victims of another
> government con job, designed to get money into the
> general fund.

I disagree. The cop *was* right; I *was* overdriving my view. I have been
a professinal driver, and have taken advanced (including tactical) drivers
training. I freely admit to driving foolishly for the conditions. Additionally,
I *was* breaking the law. It might be argued that the law is wrong, but
cops don't change laws. That argument should be taken up with the legislature.
If they fail to give satisfaction, boot' em out. Of course, that takes a
little initiative and attention. People are generally to apathetic today to
worry about little things like what the laws are. But that is not the cop's
fault.

> Very few people rank and rave.
> Almost everyone keeps their mouth shut, and kisses
> ass at the right time. Now let's suppose the cop who
> came in your house didn't like your looks, or race,
> or the way you dressed, etc. You would be a convicted
> felon today, and your family and you would have been
> subjected to a long period of suffering and enormous
> expense.

While abuse no doubt happens, it was legally impossible in those circumstances
(unless you hypothosize the avarage street cop carries around a few pounds of
pot or coke in his trunk so he can plant them as evidence on people he doesn't
like.). While I was unaware of it, posession of small quantities of pot in
California was a marginal misdemenor, punishable by citation only. (at least,
that was the case in 1986, when this happened - I have long since left that
roomate behind, and I am not part of the "pot culture", so I have no real idea
what the laws are now.)

I have a friend who is a CHP officer, and he says he gets "ranted and raved" at
all the time, even on something as routine as a speeding ticket. People who are
guilty generally deny their guilt, even when overwhelming evidence is present.
This is just human nature, and is the urge at the root of the phrase "the truth
hurts". Self-denial is the hallmark of the human species. It is a rare occurance,
according to my friend, when someone actually *admits* to being guilty, *especially*
to a cop.

Another anecdote - my mother and my father were driving to San Francisco one day.
My mother is a bit of a leadfoot, and refuses to wear a seatbelt (we have a
seatbelt law here, incidentally one I completely disapprove of, even though I
have religiously worn mine since I took drivers ed). She was blissfully cruising
at around 75 when a CHP pulled her over. He asked, "Do you know how fast you
were going?" She said, "Yes, I was doing 75." He was somewhat taken aback, and
then said, "OK, so you were paying attention. Good. Slow down." and left. No
ticket.

I still say you get better results by being civil than by being combative. And
I still say that most cops are not out to get anybody, and are not "stooges
of the Establishment".

-Matt

[Tom Potter]

In <Forum.8456654...@mattn.bandley1.netmanage.com>

ma...@netmanage.com writes:
>
>
>In Article Re: the police as political instruments , Tom Potter
><t...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> In <Forum.8455810...@mattn.bandley1.netmanage.com>
>> ma...@netmanage.com writes:
>> >
>
>[snip]
>>

>> This is standard operating procedure of cops when
>> issuing a ticket. After you have paid a few hundred dollars
>> in fines, and look back on the experiences, I am sure that
>> most people will discover that they were endangering
>> no one, and they were simply victims of another
>> government con job, designed to get money into the
>> general fund.
>

> I disagree. The cop *was* right; I *was* overdriving my view. I
have been
> a professinal driver, and have taken advanced (including
tactical) drivers
> training. I freely admit to driving foolishly for the conditions.
Additionally,
> I *was* breaking the law. It might be argued that the law is
wrong, but
> cops don't change laws. That argument should be taken up with the
legislature.
> If they fail to give satisfaction, boot' em out. Of course, that
takes a
> little initiative and attention. People are generally to
apathetic today to
> worry about little things like what the laws are. But that is not
the cop's
> fault.
>
>

>> Very few people rank and rave.
>> Almost everyone keeps their mouth shut, and kisses
>> ass at the right time. Now let's suppose the cop who
>> came in your house didn't like your looks, or race,
>> or the way you dressed, etc. You would be a convicted
>> felon today, and your family and you would have been
>> subjected to a long period of suffering and enormous
>> expense.
>

The bottom line is that there are millions of laws
and regulations, and they are selectively applied.

And they are applied by self-serving cops and
bureaucrats who belong to a "brotherhood" in
which it is okay to brutalize, steal from and
oppress people outside the "brotherhood"
( People in the private sector ) but it is the
kiss of death to rat on the criminals and
incompetents within the "brotherhood.

In other words, the American government
has become a "brotherhood" of thieves
and is rotten to the core. Government must
be greatly downsized, and privatized as much
as possible. and the number of laws must be
reduced by orders of magnitude, or else
America will continue the downward spiral
it has been in for over thirty years.

Tom Potter http://pobox.com/~tdp

[fire...@tiac.net]

dci...@superlink.net (Dave Cinege) wrote:

>In <545jjt$m...@news-central.tiac.net>, fire...@tiac.net writes:
>>t...@ix.netcom.com(Tom Potter) wrote:
>>
>>>In <326aa87d...@news.alt.net> pana...@juno.com (Usenet's Panache)
>>>writes:
>>>>
>>>>On 17 Oct 1996 00:25:17 GMT, doper <do...@inner.city.net> uttered
>>>>these pearls of wisdom:
>>>>
>>>>>Police in the uS are not respected because all we see
>>>>>them do is hassle people over things like smoking
>>>>>marijuana
>>>>
>>>>Eh. Pot should be legalized.
>>>>
>>>>>driving too fast
>>>>
>>>>Excessive speed causes accidents. Especially in urban centers.
>>>>What's wrong with preventing accidents?
>>
>>>Let's be truthful.
>>>Most traffic tickets are given to provide INCOME
>>>to the general funds of the communities, and to
>>>HASSLE the undisireables who come into the community.
>>
>>Ahh enter Tom's secret insider knowlage of the whole world. Yes
>>traffic tickets provide income. However they are given to hassle
>>those who break the law, local, forgeiner, desired or otherwise. Lets
>>be truthful you exceeded the speed limit you got caught your whining.

>And who the fuck are you to decide that limit!!1?!!?

I didn't you elected representitives did. You don't like it you take
it up with them.

>>>I have never had an accident yet I have received many
>>>tickets, almost all in speed traps in states and
>>>communities notorious for it.
>>
>>And you kept on speeding anyway instead of following the posted speed
>>limit. My god what a tragedy of justice. What's the old saying
>>better to be thought of a follow then open your mouth and prove it. I
>>mean how STUPID can you be then going into an area you know has speed
>>traps and speeding. Hell I'd double your ticket if you told me that.
>>Then again I don't give speeding tickets so I guess you lucked out.

>And I'm sure you follow the limits, huh piggy? No? Oh that's right you're
>special you KNOW whats best for the rest of us.

I follow the limits at all times save when responding to emergencies
and even then within -MY- tolerences and under the law. Nor again did
I or anyother cop make the limit your elected representitives did.
What's the matter coward can't take responsibility for your own
actions. Poor little Cigne all picked on no one understands you. Ya
right.

>YOU SICK BASTARD EGO POWER FREAK! Rot! Rot!

I'm not the one telling you all how to live or what other peoples
feelings ought to be. I'm not the one tell you how to think or trying
to decide for you what is right or wrong. Who is the real power freak
Cigne?? Try looking in the mirror

>>>>>paying our automobile registration
>>>>
>>>>Do you think upkeep of the roads is free? And if payment wasn't
>>>>mandatory, do you think people would just donate money?
>>
>>>If a state was interested in good will, and providing
>>>"the pursuit of happiness" for it's citizens, it would
>>>give warnings, not tickets for trivial violations.
>>>States and law enforcement like to use trival violations
>>>in order to throw their weight around, and let the
>>>peasants know who is running things. ( The government )
>>
>>Let me guess your favorite show is the X-files isn't it? Depending on
>>your record and the violation we might give a warning...heck I know of
>>a time we actually gave a speeder a police escort cause he wanted to
>>get to the hospital his daughter had been hurt somehow and he was
>>rushing from work. So a cruiser lit up and cleared the way with him
>>behind dropped him at the hospital with a warning. In other words as
>>with anything it's the individual

>So you decided that time it was OK for him to break the law.
>How nice of you.....are you always selective of your enforcment?
>You know best after all....

Nope Didn't decide it was okay for him to break the law..he was
repremanded and it's noted he just wasn't fined. It's funny you folks
are all up for humane treatment consider us. We do and then you whine
about it. Maybe we should strat taking speeders and using them as
crash test dummies I mean after all speed doesn't kill right?

>>>>>And the punishments for
>>>>>victimless drug crimes are so cruel and disproportionate
>>>>>that no decent human being could be a part of that system.
>>>>
>>>>Victimless?!? HAH!
>>>>
>>>>Who's being naive now? You haven't seen entire families torn apart by
>>>>drugs, have you? Entire lives destroyed.
>>
>>>For every person, and family, that has been severely
>>>harmed by an addiction to drugs, at least ten have
>>>been destroyed by the criminal justice system due
>>>to court costs, jail time, loss of income, stimatized, etc.
>>>And the whole fiasco costs the innocent taxpayers billions
>>>of dollars every year.
>>
>>Ummm okay and what should we do with the criminals?

>Have all the cops have a line up in a row and take a bullet to the back of
>the head. That will get rid of 90% of the criminal right there.....

If cops are criminals then who made them so...look to yourself before
you accuse others.

>>>>Victimless indeed. May I suggest you ride with a patrol officer a
>>>>couple of times and see exactly HOW victimless it is.
>>
>>>>>We don't see you as our protectors, we see you as the
>>>>>muscle behind a government that violates our common law
>>>>>rights of property and passage, tax collectors, bounty
>>>>>hunters who work on commission.
>>>>
>>>>Hey. I've come to expect most people to dislike cops. As a grizzled
>>>>old sergeant once told me "You only deal with four types of people -
>>>>The Sick, The Psychos, The Selfish and The Unlucky." And he was
>>>>right. Nobody likes getting a ticket. And nobody likes getting
>>>>arrested when they break the law.
>>
>>>As a father, teacher, employer and landlord,
>>>I never EXPECTED anyone to dislike me.
>>>Do you know why? I treateded them all fairly
>>>and with respect. I treated them as human beings
>>>and never took away their self respect.
>>
>>Hmmmm Lessee I try and help a kid who's drugged out fell down a flight
>>of stairs try to treat his wounds he wakes up and stabs me with a pair
>>of sissors from my own belt <last time I left the bloodly things

>HAHAHAHA Good! Too bad hie didn't finish the job!

Yep brilliant almost killed himself so he could lashout at the nearest
object. You really do have no common sense do you?

>>unlatched> how bout those wonderful folks who shoot firefighters in
>>the back while fighting the blaze?

>Oh sure happens all the time...

Saddly it does...like the guy above.. See moron I'm not a cop I'm a
fire rescue officer, I have law enforcement power but those aren't my
primary duties. You stab me you aren't hurting police your hurting
yourself.. You hurt a cop only person your hurting is yourself..

>>Ohh yeah people just love
>>everyone. Are you done with fantazy yet? Yes people need to be
>>treated fairly you are 100% right but no it wouldn't make a bit of
>>difference when it comes to perception of officers.

>Nope, because we know evil when we see it.

Interesting you should mention that... "the devil often comes in the
guise of the holy" In other words Dave you who preach of good are
most likely evil.

Well see actually I have. But facts never effect people like you.

>Well I guess you're fucking usless ; nothing a but a paid bully.

Really and who do I bully?

>There are enough good seminarians to take your place, and they are given
>free will by the courts to harass, rob, beat, and kill people like the cops
>are. Be gone!!! At the very least, you are not economically viable....

Like you even know the slightest bit of what I do.

[Tom Potter]

In <mildbill-171...@news.concentric.net>

mild...@concentric.net (Bill) writes:
>
>In article <544bto$d...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, t...@ix.netcom.com(Tom
>Potter) wrote:
>
>
>>

>>For every person, and family, that has been severely
>>harmed by an addiction to drugs, at least ten have
>>been destroyed by the criminal justice system due
>>to court costs, jail time, loss of income, stimatized, etc.
>>And the whole fiasco costs the innocent taxpayers billions
>>of dollars every year.
>

>This is all just too funny for words. You are saying that we should
just
>stop having police, stop using the courts because when people are
forced
>to pay the penalty for breaking the law it destroys families? that is
>really funny.
>
>At times I think of having a national police on strike week. Give the
>thugs a week to make life hell and then we will see how much we
appreciate
>the guy on the beat.

Personally, I think that the police leadership is too
smart to have a "national sgtrike week". The people
might just find out how little the police really do.

As a person how is in close contact with many inner
city merchants and landklords, I find the many think
that the police just inhibit the good people from
taking care of the bad people. The REAL bad guys have
little to fear from law enforcement, while the good
people who work hard to build equity and maintain a
family unit would be distroyed if they were targeted
by law enforcement ( For defending thei kids, family,
property, etc. )

Society would be much better off if responsibility for
law enforcement was taken out of the hands of self-serving
police unions and bureaucrats, and turned over to a
committe of local commumity leaders. I suggest that a
community driven, private sector, committee could hire
a few motor cycle club members, fot a tiny fraction
of the cost of todays law enforcement, and that the
communities would be much safer.

>I am beginning to believe folks to cotton to this libertarian nonsense
>have all been lobotimized. Simple answers for simple minds. Vote
>Libertarian.

I am begining to think that self-serving government employees
and apologists have no defense for their support of
the corrupt, self-serving system that has evolved,
o yhey must resort to ad hominem and stupid assertions.

"Simple answers for simple minds."

I'm here from the government to help you.

Tom Potter http://pobox.com/~tdp

[Dave Cinege]

Are you really tring to fool us with this crock of shit piggy?

[David Nieporent]

In article <mildbill-171...@news.concentric.net>,
Bill <mild...@concentric.net> wrote:
>t...@ix.netcom.com(Tom Potter) wrote:

>>For every person, and family, that has been severely
>>harmed by an addiction to drugs, at least ten have
>>been destroyed by the criminal justice system due
>>to court costs, jail time, loss of income, stimatized, etc.
>>And the whole fiasco costs the innocent taxpayers billions
>>of dollars every year.

>This is all just too funny for words. You are saying that we should just

>stop having police, stop using the courts because when people are forced
>to pay the penalty for breaking the law it destroys families? that is
>really funny.

No, he's not saying that, at least not in the part you quoted. He's
saying that when the cost of the law is greater than the cost of the
thing the law is supposed to prevent, it's a stupid law.

>At times I think of having a national police on strike week. Give the
>thugs a week to make life hell and then we will see how much we appreciate
>the guy on the beat.

>I am beginning to believe folks to cotton to this libertarian nonsense
>have all been lobotimized. Simple answers for simple minds. Vote
>Libertarian.

--
David M. Nieporent |"I have been participating in the USENET for many
niep...@pluto.njcc.com|years now. I have never found it to be a requirement
Plainsboro, NJ |for anyone to know anything about any subject to post
DAVEY & ORIOLES 1997!!!|on any newsgroup." -- seen on talk.politics.misc.

[samson.f.mischkind]

In article <Forum.8456654...@mattn.bandley1.netmanage.com>,

ma...@netmanage.com wrote:
>
> I have a friend who is a CHP officer, and he says he gets "ranted and
> raved" at all the time, even on something as routine as a speeding ticket.
> People who are guilty generally deny their guilt, even when overwhelming
> evidence is present. This is just human nature, and is the urge at the
> root of the phrase "the truth hurts". Self-denial is the hallmark of the

> human species. It is a rare occurance, according to my friend, when

> someone actually *admits* to being guilty, *especially* to a cop.

All very true. I find, however, that I am exponentially more nervous
confronting a police officer when I have done nothing wrong and can
honestly proclaim my innocence, than when I have done something wrong and
have reason to lie about it. Maybe this is just me.

But people who are _not_ guilty also tend to deny guilt. I think the
reason I am less at ease when I get stopped by a cop for no reason (at
least no reason I can identify) is that I assume that the officer will not
believe me. As you say, the guilty never admit their guilt. On the other
hand, if I _am_ at fault for something, I can lie quite glibly, since I
figure, "what have I got to lose"?

And the interesting thing is, when I have been stopped in my car, for one
reason or another, and incidentally asked whether or not I had drugs in
the car, I have always said "no". But apparently, I have been far more
believable when that was a lie, since in every case _but_ the one or two
where I was lying, I have been threatened with a search. (And then, of
course, i could say "search away", since there was nothing there, and this
usually ends the encounter...)

[Steve Brinich]

samson.f.mischkind wrote:

> And the interesting thing is, when I have been stopped in my car, for one
> reason or another, and incidentally asked whether or not I had drugs in
> the car, I have always said "no". But apparently, I have been far more
> believable when that was a lie, since in every case _but_ the one or two
> where I was lying, I have been threatened with a search. (And then, of
> course, i could say "search away", since there was nothing there, and this
> usually ends the encounter...)

Well, nothing there at the moment the search started, anyway....

--
Steve Brinich ste...@access.digex.net If the government wants us
PGP:89B992BBE67F7B2F64FDF2EA14374C3E to respect the law
http://www.access.digex.net/~steve-b it should set a better example

[Dave Cinege]

A long standing (oh 400 years or so) part of the common law is that if there
is no victim that can show injury or lose there is no crime. The basic
system of english common law was adopted with the Constitution (according to
the Supreme court) and thus it is superior law, only less in authority then
the Constitution itself.

The 9th amendment also provides for individual liberty.

Of course you would know this if you acctually knew about the law; if you
knew what your oath really means. But you're nothing more then a
political thug, you enjoy it, and I'm sure you don't care otherwise.

>Not the Majority for the american public or
>action would have been taken.

You sick fuck...

>You cannot dictate for the people what
>is and is not Constitutional Nor is this something to take issue with
>the police about but with YOUR elected representives get the laws
>changed if you can get the people of america to agree with you and the
>police will happily deal with other problems.

#1 Run on sentence

#2 You're not too bright, are you? You've just contradicted yourself by
saying that the legislatures and congress can dictate what the constitution
means. The constitution is the law of the land. It is literal in meaning,
limited in scope (for governmental authority), and can not be changed by
anyone except through a specific amendment process. You are the one making
the subjective judgement of what is and is not constitutional when you
enforce laws. Have you ever arrested someone for weapons
possession? Then YOU BROKE THE LAW!!!

>>>Speed limits set for saftey by the state/county and by the Federal
>>>government clearly marked. Police enforcing the law is hassling.
>
>>Violation of the Constitution and the common law. It is null and void. It is
>>colorable when enforced.
>
>Speed limits are VERY Constitutional and are there to protect the
>right to live and to optimise liberty.. you have accidence they cause
>traffic traffic is an impediment to liberty. Get a clue.

Horse shit. Speed limits are not even real law, they are quasi-law. They are
not recognized in the Constitution, and you are afforded no rights when they
are enforced. They violate the common law. They are subjective is nature IE
who are you to say 55mph is the limit? Some states is more. Some states it's
less.

>>>Paying for registration and inspection to prove the vehicle is safe
>>>for use around the public. So police enforcing the law is hassling.
>
>>Violation of the Constitution and the common law. It is null and void. It is
>>colorable when enforced.
>
>Perhaps perhaps not take issue with your elected rep and leave the
>police to doing their duty as chartered and requested.

When your job is being the hand of the body that trys to abolish my property
rights expect to get shot!!!

>>>I'm seeing a theme here police doing their job enforcing the law isn't
>>>what you want. Guess what those laws can be changed if you talk to
>>>your legislators and the majority of america agrees.
>
>>Freedom comes from birith, not the 'privilege's' people in high places
>>decide you SHOULD have. The purpose of the law is to enumerate the powers
>>the government has when you infringe upon the rights of other citizens.
>>The victimless crime laws you enforce are nothing more then a means of
>>oppressive big government control. They are immoral. They are
>>unconstitional. And may you rot in the fithest deepest darkest hole for
>>initiating force against those that have not harmed you or any other person.
>
><laugh> rot in the deepest darkest hole?? Sorry been there done that.
>I've seen the results of your victimless crimes daily for the past 8
>years not as a police officer <it seems you moronic bashers can't

>read> but as a rescue officer.

Your psychosis is that of a cop....it matters not if you wear a badge......
(though I think you are lying)

> I've seen the lung cancer, consumption,
>the overdoses the bad trips the birth defects the fighting shooting
>stabbing sick diseased etc etc ad nausem for 8 years Mr. Cigne and if
>you think you your adled brain pig headed arrogance for one second you
>know whats going on think agian.

There are many prices levied for freedom. You should pay them all most
graciously.

> Is government to blame for our
>problems?? NO police NO the man NO. You wanna know who's at fault?

Well lets see......

>Look in the mirror Mr. Cigne people who think only for and about
>themselves. You all come to this group and bash cops left right and
>sideways calling them Nazis.

I've done nothing but point out what it is they do.......
You made your own bed. Just because it's full of shit doesn't mean you
shouldn't have to sleep in it.

>Well guess what the cops did make
>millions off selling tabacco to kids upping the addictive qualities
>and thriving off of the addiction. The police didn't say well I want
>a high paying job and all the good things in life who cares about the
>community.

No, they felt the need to be in control and took a job that would allow
them to cater to their egos and feel special.

> The police aren't the ones making parents use TV's
>computers and any single other item they can as babysitters.

No, but they enforce the laws that destroyed the family unit.

>The
>Police didn't force the drugs down your throat or invite the gangs and
>scum to supply it to you.

No, but they enforce the laws that created the drug problem, engulfing
our country in the same turmoil that happened during the first
prohibition.

> No sir police are not the culprit of the
>crimes you mention.

Aren't they? Maybe you should think about what you wrote.

>Self serving pin heads like you brought this on.

Oh really.....I was so busy leaving peope to their own devices that, oh
well, they just went crazy. If I were someone like YOU and TOLD them what to
do then we wouldn't be in this mess, right?

>Wake up and look around Mr Cigne the police are not rich people the
>police did not put corrupt officials into office.

No, but they are the people that hold the gun to your head when you decide
you will not obey those corrupt officials.

>>>Other then that
>>>police have one primary job..ENFORCE the law.
>>>If you see them
>>>harrasing people who have voilated the law then they are doing the job
>>>they were hired for.
>
>>Which is why they are ALL an immediate threat to all citizens and worthly of
>>preventative self-defense through execution.
>
>Ohh of course the LOGICAL and Constitutional approach. "Shall provide
>for -LIFE-, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" Yet you would
>advocate killing them.. Label yourself traitor then

When someone promises to bring harm upon your person, you must take action.

>>>If you obey the law they <gasp> won't bother
>>>you.
>
>>Some people have a problem with being a slave. Some people do not buckle
>>from the threat of coercion.
>
>Slavery?? do you know what slavery was or is Cigne?? You have a say
>you have rights you can do something about your position. Slaves
>could not do that. If you are a Slave Cigne no one but yourself made
>you that way.

One can ALLOW themselves to become a slave (as you have) but it still
takes someone to dominate them. It is you, the police, that do it.

>>>>ad nauseum, when there are obviously more
>>>>important things for them to do. And the punishments for
>>>>victimless drug crimes are so cruel and disproportionate
>>>>that no decent human being could be a part of that system.
>>>
>>>That is your opinion and has nothing to do with the police. Take it
>>>up with the law makers or don't break the laws you can't go around in
>>>life blaming everyone else you want to break the law then you better
>>>be ready for the consequences.
>
>>And so should you........
>
>Please

bang...

>>>>We don't see you as our protectors, we see you as the
>>>>muscle behind a government that violates our common law
>>>>rights of property and passage, tax collectors, bounty
>>>>hunters who work on commission.
>>>
>>>Right sure commision you seen law enforcement salaries of late? Of
>>>course if you voilate that law we aren't going to be your protectors
>>>we are sworn to uphold the LAW which the majority of the people
>>>through the representives the elect have willed.
>
>>The majority and congress have no authority to legislate my freedom and
>>rights away.
>
>Your rights end where someone elses begins.

DUH!!!! You fucking moron!!!!! And then you say you have no rights when they
laws state otherwise!!!!!

>Guess what this country
>is based on the good of the many not of the few so yes the majority
>can do just that if you view murder for example as your right

This country was based on individual liberty, personal responsibility, and
freedom from government. Your sadistic government control power trip has no
place here.

[Dave Cinege]

In <32689c0f...@news.novagate.com>, jbi...@novagate.com (Jerome Bigge) writes:
>On Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:18:58 -0700, mild...@concentric.net (Bill)
>wrote:
>

>>In article <544bto$d...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, t...@ix.netcom.com(Tom

>>Potter) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>For every person, and family, that has been severely
>>>harmed by an addiction to drugs, at least ten have
>>>been destroyed by the criminal justice system due
>>>to court costs, jail time, loss of income, stimatized, etc.
>>>And the whole fiasco costs the innocent taxpayers billions
>>>of dollars every year.
>>
>>This is all just too funny for words. You are saying that we should just
>>stop having police, stop using the courts because when people are forced
>>to pay the penalty for breaking the law it destroys families? that is
>>really funny.
>>

>>At times I think of having a national police on strike week. Give the
>>thugs a week to make life hell and then we will see how much we appreciate
>>the guy on the beat.
>

>If the police went on "strike", everyone who owns a handgun would
>carry it. The criminals would most likely decide it was far "safer"
>to just wait until the police returned to their duties and made sure
>that their victims were once again disarmed and vulnerable. Traffic
>accidents might increase a bit, although most likely not that much...
>Stop and consider that if there were no police, criminal act ivies
>would become so dangerous that few would continue doing them.
>It is my own opinion that the undesirable elements in our society are
>"protected" by the police, not the honest citizens who greatly out-
>number them. Gun control benefits the criminal, and governments.
>Take away the government's policeman, and the criminal suddenly
>becomes extremely vulnerable both in the commission of a crime and
>from vigilantes. This last would drive the gangs so fast from the
>streets that it would be unbelievable. A few "competent riflemen"
>would be all that would be necessary using military sniping techiques.
>It is the police that are the criminal's "protection", not the other
>way around. The "law" is what "protects" the criminal from you.

Also consider the amount of responsibility people will start to feel...

All the slobs with the:

"Well the cops will protect me"
"Fuck it, the cars insured"
"Why not, it's legal"

mentality will suddenly be faced with the reality of:

"I must protect myself"
"Jeez, I might have to pay for that"
"Is this really the RIGHT thing to do"

[Dave Cinege]

In <548lig$m...@news-central.tiac.net>, fire...@tiac.net writes:
>dci...@superlink.net (Dave Cinege) wrote:
>

>>>Ahh enter Tom's secret insider knowlage of the whole world. Yes
>>>traffic tickets provide income. However they are given to hassle
>>>those who break the law, local, forgeiner, desired or otherwise. Lets
>>>be truthful you exceeded the speed limit you got caught your whining.
>
>>And who the fuck are you to decide that limit!!1?!!?
>
>I didn't you elected representitives did. You don't like it you take
>it up with them.

I love this simple minded answer. Sure they tell me that I have walk around
with a zucchini up my ass 100 days out of the year, and I should be bound to
do it.

Stupid....

>>>>I have never had an accident yet I have received many
>>>>tickets, almost all in speed traps in states and
>>>>communities notorious for it.
>>>
>>>And you kept on speeding anyway instead of following the posted speed
>>>limit. My god what a tragedy of justice. What's the old saying
>>>better to be thought of a follow then open your mouth and prove it. I
>>>mean how STUPID can you be then going into an area you know has speed
>>>traps and speeding. Hell I'd double your ticket if you told me that.
>>>Then again I don't give speeding tickets so I guess you lucked out.
>
>>And I'm sure you follow the limits, huh piggy? No? Oh that's right you're
>>special you KNOW whats best for the rest of us.
>
>I follow the limits at all times save when responding to emergencies
>and even then within -MY- tolerences and under the law. Nor again did
>I or anyother cop make the limit your elected representitives did.
>What's the matter coward can't take responsibility for your own
>actions. Poor little Cigne all picked on no one understands you. Ya
>right.

I do take responsibility for my actions. I don't let anyone else decide my
actions for me, and I don't look towards any law neither for a reason to do
or not to do something.

>>YOU SICK BASTARD EGO POWER FREAK! Rot! Rot!
>
>I'm not the one telling you all how to live or what other peoples
>feelings ought to be. I'm not the one tell you how to think or trying
>to decide for you what is right or wrong.

Yes you are!!!! But you're took fucking sick in the head to understand it!!!

>>So you decided that time it was OK for him to break the law.
>>How nice of you.....are you always selective of your enforcment?
>>You know best after all....
>
>Nope Didn't decide it was okay for him to break the law..he was
>repremanded and it's noted he just wasn't fined. It's funny you folks
>are all up for humane treatment consider us. We do and then you whine
>about it. Maybe we should strat taking speeders and using them as
>crash test dummies I mean after all speed doesn't kill right?

Just caught you lying FireSlug. In you're last post you said you weren't a
cop. Oh well.....you never fooled me.

>>>>For every person, and family, that has been severely
>>>>harmed by an addiction to drugs, at least ten have
>>>>been destroyed by the criminal justice system due
>>>>to court costs, jail time, loss of income, stimatized, etc.
>>>>And the whole fiasco costs the innocent taxpayers billions
>>>>of dollars every year.
>>>
>>>Ummm okay and what should we do with the criminals?
>
>>Have all the cops have a line up in a row and take a bullet to the back of
>>the head. That will get rid of 90% of the criminal right there.....
>
>If cops are criminals then who made them so...look to yourself before
>you accuse others.

Why don't you be responsible for you're own actions?
No one forced you to do what you do......And don't hand me that
self-rightous crap that you are here to help people.

>>>>As a father, teacher, employer and landlord,
>>>>I never EXPECTED anyone to dislike me.
>>>>Do you know why? I treateded them all fairly
>>>>and with respect. I treated them as human beings
>>>>and never took away their self respect.
>>>
>>>Hmmmm Lessee I try and help a kid who's drugged out fell down a flight
>>>of stairs try to treat his wounds he wakes up and stabs me with a pair
>>>of sissors from my own belt <last time I left the bloodly things
>
>>HAHAHAHA Good! Too bad hie didn't finish the job!
>Yep brilliant almost killed himself so he could lashout at the nearest
>object. You really do have no common sense do you?
>
>>>unlatched> how bout those wonderful folks who shoot firefighters in
>>>the back while fighting the blaze?
>
>>Oh sure happens all the time...
>
>Saddly it does...like the guy above.. See moron I'm not a cop I'm a
>fire rescue officer, I have law enforcement power but those aren't my
>primary duties.

You're a cop......

>>>Ohh yeah people just love
>>>everyone. Are you done with fantazy yet? Yes people need to be
>>>treated fairly you are 100% right but no it wouldn't make a bit of
>>>difference when it comes to perception of officers.
>
>>Nope, because we know evil when we see it.
>
>Interesting you should mention that... "the devil often comes in the
>guise of the holy" In other words Dave you who preach of good are
>most likely evil.

That's smart. Now maybe if I tell you to have a good day, you will take
your own deranged logic into acccount and go jump off a cliff.

>>>Ummm yeah right hospital safe? you haven't spent much time in ER's
>>>have you. Wanna know why they appear safe there is ALWAY
>>>cops/firefighter/EMS personell in the building to help when things get
>>>out of hand. Shopping centers safe.... 14 reported kidnappings in 4
>>>months and all near shopping centers. Yep Safe there.
>
>>Didn't prevent anything did you?
>
>Well see actually I have. But facts never effect people like you.
>
>>Well I guess you're fucking usless ; nothing a but a paid bully.
>
>Really and who do I bully?

Get the straight jacket folks, he just changed personalities again......

[Lynette Warren]

Bill (mild...@concentric.net) wrote:
: At times I think of having a national police on strike week. Give the

: thugs a week to make life hell and then we will see how much we appreciate
: the guy on the beat.

Sounds like a good idea. It's already been done on a small scale.

During a sick out of the cops in Phoenix a couple of years back. Crime
actually went down because most criminals know that a private citizen
is far more likely to shoot a prowler when he knows he can't call for help
from the police.

"Forget 911, Dial .357" was a temporary reality and the thugs decided
that it might be a good time to stay home and watch TV.

Lynette
--

[Christopher Morton]

On Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:58:22 -0700, Virtually Reality
<ad...@virtuallyreality.com> wrote:

>> >And the punishments for
>> >victimless drug crimes are so cruel and disproportionate
>> >that no decent human being could be a part of that system.
>>

>> Victimless?!? HAH!
>>
>> Who's being naive now? You haven't seen entire families torn apart by
>> drugs, have you? Entire lives destroyed.
>>
>
>

>No I havent. I have seen entire lives torn apart by addictions, but guess what some
>of those addictions were to gambling some were to fatty foods, some to sex, and yes some
>were to drugs. I have certainly seen lives torn apart by addictions to sex, but there were
>a few lives created by it also.

I've seen my share of lives torn apart by addiction to religion.

Maybe Clinton will ban religion... not as though he gives a damn about
the rest of the Bill of Rights.

>.
>> Victimless indeed. May I suggest you ride with a patrol officer a
>> couple of times and see exactly HOW victimless it is.
>>
>

>What we would see are the victims created by the drive by shootings and black markets, the victims
>created by the WOD. These are your victims and as an agent of these laws you share a huge
>portion of the responsibility for these victims.

Other than the mentally incompetent, it isn't the job of government to
protect us from ourselves.

When it takes on that task, we inevitably end up needing someone to
protect us from government.

***
Today on Oprah: Shawn Smith, a Black woman trapped in
a White supremacist's body.

[Christopher Morton]

On Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:53:35 GMT, fire...@tiac.net wrote:

>doper <do...@inner.city.net> wrote:
>
>>smi...@tiac.net (samson.f.mischkind) wrote:
>
>
>>>So it is very hard not to dislike the police when one feels that certain
>>>laws are so completely unjust that one cannot even imagine how a human
>>>with any decency or intelligence could actually bring themselves to
>>>enforce them. I just can't help but cringe when I imagine that anyone
>>>could actually choose this line of work.
>
>
>>I get mad at anyone who is unwilling to think for
>>himself. We don't want cops who were "just following
>>orders." We don't want robocops, we want leo's who
>>grew up where they work and want to protect and be a
>>part of their communities. We don't want military police.
>
>I really really LOVE reading some of this stuff cluelessness abounds.
>Police and can do think for themselves as much as any other person
>does. And many probably even most cops work where they live and if
>not tend to be part of both communities.

Thinking for yourself doesn't mean that you will think either rational
or good thoughts. I'm sure that Mark Fuhrman thinks for himself.
That doesn't keep him from being a scumbag.

[fire...@tiac.net]

dci...@superlink.net (Dave Cinege) wrote:

>In <548lig$m...@news-central.tiac.net>, fire...@tiac.net writes:
>>dci...@superlink.net (Dave Cinege) wrote:
>>
>>>>Ahh enter Tom's secret insider knowlage of the whole world. Yes
>>>>traffic tickets provide income. However they are given to hassle
>>>>those who break the law, local, forgeiner, desired or otherwise. Lets
>>>>be truthful you exceeded the speed limit you got caught your whining.
>>
>>>And who the fuck are you to decide that limit!!1?!!?
>>
>>I didn't you elected representitives did. You don't like it you take
>>it up with them.

>I love this simple minded answer. Sure they tell me that I have walk around
>with a zucchini up my ass 100 days out of the year, and I should be bound to
>do it.

No half wit your bound to take it up with them and if they don't
listen take it to all the otehr people who have a zucchini up their
butt and get them to change it.. But my GOD that would make you
responsible for your own situation how insane of me to suggest.

>Stupid....

Thats one word for you

>>>>>I have never had an accident yet I have received many
>>>>>tickets, almost all in speed traps in states and
>>>>>communities notorious for it.
>>>>
>>>>And you kept on speeding anyway instead of following the posted speed
>>>>limit. My god what a tragedy of justice. What's the old saying
>>>>better to be thought of a follow then open your mouth and prove it. I
>>>>mean how STUPID can you be then going into an area you know has speed
>>>>traps and speeding. Hell I'd double your ticket if you told me that.
>>>>Then again I don't give speeding tickets so I guess you lucked out.
>>
>>>And I'm sure you follow the limits, huh piggy? No? Oh that's right you're
>>>special you KNOW whats best for the rest of us.
>>
>>I follow the limits at all times save when responding to emergencies
>>and even then within -MY- tolerences and under the law. Nor again did
>>I or anyother cop make the limit your elected representitives did.
>>What's the matter coward can't take responsibility for your own
>>actions. Poor little Cigne all picked on no one understands you. Ya
>>right.

>I do take responsibility for my actions. I don't let anyone else decide my
>actions for me, and I don't look towards any law neither for a reason to do
>or not to do something.

Well then I'm sure all the rest of the world breathes alot safer.. In
this world we are all interconected that is why there are laws to
prevent mass chaos and death driving a car at speed is not unlike
driving a guided bullet the laws are there to minimize damage if you
choose to disobey them it's not just violation of law but endangering
everyone in your immediate area and yourself. Indeed if you were
responsible you'ld know that.

>>>YOU SICK BASTARD EGO POWER FREAK! Rot! Rot!
>>
>>I'm not the one telling you all how to live or what other peoples
>>feelings ought to be. I'm not the one tell you how to think or trying
>>to decide for you what is right or wrong.

>Yes you are!!!! But you're took fucking sick in the head to understand it!!!

Really you are telling ME that I should not belive in the law. You
are teeling me that my belief in law and order is wrong. You are
telling me I'm sick because I belive in my oaths? While I enforce law
I do not tell you not to think about it I in fact told you point blank
if you don't like the law talk to your elected rep get the people to
belive you. Which of us is truely unreasonable Cigne? Look in a
mirror lately?

>>>So you decided that time it was OK for him to break the law.
>>>How nice of you.....are you always selective of your enforcment?
>>>You know best after all....
>>
>>Nope Didn't decide it was okay for him to break the law..he was
>>repremanded and it's noted he just wasn't fined. It's funny you folks
>>are all up for humane treatment consider us. We do and then you whine
>>about it. Maybe we should strat taking speeders and using them as
>>crash test dummies I mean after all speed doesn't kill right?

>Just caught you lying FireSlug. In you're last post you said you weren't a
>cop. Oh well.....you never fooled me.

Laugh cops are not the only law enforcers on the planet Cigne? Ever
bother to read. Fire Rescue officer, Peace officer. I do have
law-enforcement power. I actually HAVE been trained as a cop for
means of cross training for duties I sometimes perform. I also didn't
say I repremanded him and I didn't say I noted it. I also didn't say
I escorted him I said a cruiser escorted him. The We is a generic WE
for all "representitives of authority"

>>>>>For every person, and family, that has been severely
>>>>>harmed by an addiction to drugs, at least ten have
>>>>>been destroyed by the criminal justice system due
>>>>>to court costs, jail time, loss of income, stimatized, etc.
>>>>>And the whole fiasco costs the innocent taxpayers billions
>>>>>of dollars every year.
>>>>
>>>>Ummm okay and what should we do with the criminals?
>>
>>>Have all the cops have a line up in a row and take a bullet to the back of
>>>the head. That will get rid of 90% of the criminal right there.....
>>
>>If cops are criminals then who made them so...look to yourself before
>>you accuse others.

>Why don't you be responsible for you're own actions?
>No one forced you to do what you do......And don't hand me that
>self-rightous crap that you are here to help people.

That is EXACTLY what I am there for to help people. When you get
stuck in situations that are life threatening I and those who have
sworn and honor our oaths are out there to get you out. What are you
gonna tell me I got in it for?? Money?? what amount of money do you
REALLY think is worth the risks I have to take? I can make twice and
more my salary in the computer field heck I've been known to do some
side consulting work on time off so I know I can do it. But I won't
because I have a commitment to use the skills I have for the people
around me who need them. And you can have whatever jaded cinical crap
you want but it won't change the facts. Cops, Firefighters and EMS
personell don't take the jobs for the pay cause it isn't there. You
know why Cops go bad...because if you ARE speeding they catch you, you
whine. You threaten to sue you make up crap and you pay them crap.
They goto help you, you spit in their face. They tell you they took
the job to help you tell them no you did it to do <state whatever
corrupt bull you want here> And some of them eventually crack. That's
not all of them and it's NOT how they started but you go on beliving
you delusions Cigne Truth won't be changed to suit your goals.

>>>>>As a father, teacher, employer and landlord,
>>>>>I never EXPECTED anyone to dislike me.
>>>>>Do you know why? I treateded them all fairly
>>>>>and with respect. I treated them as human beings
>>>>>and never took away their self respect.
>>>>
>>>>Hmmmm Lessee I try and help a kid who's drugged out fell down a flight
>>>>of stairs try to treat his wounds he wakes up and stabs me with a pair
>>>>of sissors from my own belt <last time I left the bloodly things
>>
>>>HAHAHAHA Good! Too bad hie didn't finish the job!
>>Yep brilliant almost killed himself so he could lashout at the nearest
>>object. You really do have no common sense do you?
>>
>>>>unlatched> how bout those wonderful folks who shoot firefighters in
>>>>the back while fighting the blaze?
>>
>>>Oh sure happens all the time...
>>
>>Saddly it does...like the guy above.. See moron I'm not a cop I'm a
>>fire rescue officer, I have law enforcement power but those aren't my
>>primary duties.

>You're a cop......

No Cigne I'm not a cop could I be yes, am I trained as one yes, did I
join a police dept NO. Do I wear a police uniform NO, Do I respond to
crime scenes If the call for medical support etc. Do you have any
idea what your talking about no. But you go ahead you prove I'm a cop
this ought to be funny.

>>>>Ohh yeah people just love
>>>>everyone. Are you done with fantazy yet? Yes people need to be
>>>>treated fairly you are 100% right but no it wouldn't make a bit of
>>>>difference when it comes to perception of officers.
>>
>>>Nope, because we know evil when we see it.
>>
>>Interesting you should mention that... "the devil often comes in the
>>guise of the holy" In other words Dave you who preach of good are
>>most likely evil.

>That's smart. Now maybe if I tell you to have a good day, you will take
>your own deranged logic into acccount and go jump off a cliff.

Laugh see there's the proof you say a nice thing with bad intent.
Thank you for proving my point.

>>>>Ummm yeah right hospital safe? you haven't spent much time in ER's
>>>>have you. Wanna know why they appear safe there is ALWAY
>>>>cops/firefighter/EMS personell in the building to help when things get
>>>>out of hand. Shopping centers safe.... 14 reported kidnappings in 4
>>>>months and all near shopping centers. Yep Safe there.
>>
>>>Didn't prevent anything did you?
>>
>>Well see actually I have. But facts never effect people like you.
>>
>>>Well I guess you're fucking usless ; nothing a but a paid bully.
>>
>>Really and who do I bully?

>Get the straight jacket folks, he just changed personalities again......

How did I?? exactly where did I change personalities?

[fire...@tiac.net]

dci...@superlink.net (Dave Cinege) wrote:

You know I'm getting REALLY tired of responding to your half witted
bull I prefer more responsible and intelligent dialog. However since
you raise points lets look at them.

>A long standing (oh 400 years or so) part of the common law is that if there
>is no victim that can show injury or lose there is no crime. The basic
>system of english common law was adopted with the Constitution (according to
>the Supreme court) and thus it is superior law, only less in authority then
>the Constitution itself.

Yep less then the constitution it's self which states that
endangerment of the rights and lives of others is not permitted. In
otherwords the legislature cannot legalize murder save in case of the
puplic good ie someone who has or will kill many people. It cannot
knowingly legalize a toxin for use on the public. It cannot legalize
potential threats to the rights and lives of the public the Supreame
court stands to ensure that.

>The 9th amendment also provides for individual liberty.

Within the confines of the right of others. You rights end where
anothers begin.

>Of course you would know this if you acctually knew about the law; if you
>knew what your oath really means. But you're nothing more then a
>political thug, you enjoy it, and I'm sure you don't care otherwise.

I am no thug we've been down this road before. I do know about the
law and what my oaths mean I took them :) I don't always enjoy my
work mostly becuase of the crap I have to see and deal with. Things
you claim don't happen and don't exist. The only thing you are sure
of is your own ego.

>>Not the Majority for the american public or
>>action would have been taken.

>You sick fuck...

How am I a sick fuck because I belive the people have power over their
own lives and can decide for themselves? Yes I must be insane only we
"political thugs" can come to our senses rebel and overthrow the
corrupt government. In case you have forgotten that would be in sense
a military coup and is in violation of the Constituion which did not
want a military power in control of the nation. If you want the
police to not enforce the law the people need to make it clear that
THEY so desire it not just a few people and not the police.

>>You cannot dictate for the people what
>>is and is not Constitutional Nor is this something to take issue with
>>the police about but with YOUR elected representives get the laws
>>changed if you can get the people of america to agree with you and the
>>police will happily deal with other problems.

>#1 Run on sentence

Yippidy do da yippidy yay Get on with it.

>#2 You're not too bright, are you? You've just contradicted yourself by
>saying that the legislatures and congress can dictate what the constitution
>means. The constitution is the law of the land. It is literal in meaning,
>limited in scope (for governmental authority), and can not be changed by
>anyone except through a specific amendment process. You are the one making
>the subjective judgement of what is and is not constitutional when you
>enforce laws. Have you ever arrested someone for weapons
>possession? Then YOU BROKE THE LAW!!!

No I didn't say a word about the Legistalture making
constitutionality. I said get the legislature to change the law. And
actually I said talk to your ELECTED representitives the president who
appoints the SC bench and the legislature which aproves it. So no I
didn't contradict anything you seem to have forgotten how the
Constituion stated government is to be run. Actually No I haven't the
Law of the land states "The right to bear arms in a well regulated
militia" not the right to walk around with an ak-47 loaded.

>>>>Speed limits set for saftey by the state/county and by the Federal
>>>>government clearly marked. Police enforcing the law is hassling.
>>
>>>Violation of the Constitution and the common law. It is null and void. It is
>>>colorable when enforced.
>>
>>Speed limits are VERY Constitutional and are there to protect the
>>right to live and to optimise liberty.. you have accidence they cause
>>traffic traffic is an impediment to liberty. Get a clue.

>Horse shit. Speed limits are not even real law, they are quasi-law. They are
>not recognized in the Constitution, and you are afforded no rights when they
>are enforced. They violate the common law. They are subjective is nature IE
>who are you to say 55mph is the limit? Some states is more. Some states it's
>less.

Exactly the STATES may regulate internally all roads for which it is
sovergn. All roads which are interstate in nature and for the
protection of free commerce are under Federal regulation and shall so
be maintained. This too is in the Constituion. Try reading it you
will find the section that mandates regulation of highways.

>>>>Paying for registration and inspection to prove the vehicle is safe
>>>>for use around the public. So police enforcing the law is hassling.
>>
>>>Violation of the Constitution and the common law. It is null and void. It is
>>>colorable when enforced.
>>
>>Perhaps perhaps not take issue with your elected rep and leave the
>>police to doing their duty as chartered and requested.

>When your job is being the hand of the body that trys to abolish my property
>rights expect to get shot!!!

Shoot me Cigne and you shot the only one who would have fixed the
bullet wound you'd be riddled with afterward. Intelligent discourse
is the proper redress of grievance armed conflict only to be used in
case of last resort this TOO is written into the Constitution would
you still so violate it?

>>>>I'm seeing a theme here police doing their job enforcing the law isn't
>>>>what you want. Guess what those laws can be changed if you talk to
>>>>your legislators and the majority of america agrees.
>>
>>>Freedom comes from birith, not the 'privilege's' people in high places
>>>decide you SHOULD have. The purpose of the law is to enumerate the powers
>>>the government has when you infringe upon the rights of other citizens.
>>>The victimless crime laws you enforce are nothing more then a means of
>>>oppressive big government control. They are immoral. They are
>>>unconstitional. And may you rot in the fithest deepest darkest hole for
>>>initiating force against those that have not harmed you or any other person.
>>
>><laugh> rot in the deepest darkest hole?? Sorry been there done that.
>>I've seen the results of your victimless crimes daily for the past 8
>>years not as a police officer <it seems you moronic bashers can't
>>read> but as a rescue officer.

>Your psychosis is that of a cop....it matters not if you wear a badge......
>(though I think you are lying)

My psychosis?? there is no psychosis named such for cops. If you mean
my psyc profile that would be anoher story. I work with them alot
I've trained with them. So yes in some issues we agree strongly in
others well you should've looked in the threads discusssing the FOP
endorsement of Clinton. Still you opinion of me matters little as you
do not know me.

>> I've seen the lung cancer, consumption,
>>the overdoses the bad trips the birth defects the fighting shooting
>>stabbing sick diseased etc etc ad nausem for 8 years Mr. Cigne and if
>>you think you your adled brain pig headed arrogance for one second you
>>know whats going on think agian.

>There are many prices levied for freedom. You should pay them all most
>graciously.

Yes there are many prices for freedom of that I 100% agree but be sure
you know the difference between freedom folly and opression of a
different nature.

>> Is government to blame for our
>>problems?? NO police NO the man NO. You wanna know who's at fault?

>Well lets see......

>>Look in the mirror Mr. Cigne people who think only for and about
>>themselves. You all come to this group and bash cops left right and
>>sideways calling them Nazis.

>I've done nothing but point out what it is they do.......
>You made your own bed. Just because it's full of shit doesn't mean you
>shouldn't have to sleep in it.

You just don't get it do you...the ego is just too big. The nazi's
didn't come into power from strong arm tactics they were ELECTED the
kept power by force of arms. You still have choices you can elect
your officials if you fail in the duty you and you alone are to blame.
The police vote according to their personal beliefs and are divded
accordingly so do the rest of the people in this country your rights
exist. There for the only one who is trying to be a Nazi would be
the one trying to enforce a minority opinion on the majority.

>>Well guess what the cops did make
>>millions off selling tabacco to kids upping the addictive qualities
>>and thriving off of the addiction. The police didn't say well I want
>>a high paying job and all the good things in life who cares about the
>>community.

>No, they felt the need to be in control and took a job that would allow
>them to cater to their egos and feel special.

Look who's talking about ego. But no that is not why they took the
job.

>> The police aren't the ones making parents use TV's
>>computers and any single other item they can as babysitters.

>No, but they enforce the laws that destroyed the family unit.

Wrong the family unit was destroyed by personal ambition, intolerance,
arrogance, and lack of discipline. No law yet created induces divorce
or makes parents avoid taking care of their children.

>>The
>>Police didn't force the drugs down your throat or invite the gangs and
>>scum to supply it to you.

>No, but they enforce the laws that created the drug problem, engulfing
>our country in the same turmoil that happened during the first
>prohibition.

Wrong Cigne you did the minute you said I wanna get high for anyreason
other then medical need. YOU brought them in not the police not the
government YOU made the choice. And it was a CHOICE.

>> No sir police are not the culprit of the
>>crimes you mention.

>Aren't they? Maybe you should think about what you wrote.

I have each individual has a choice no one forced a selection you made
up your own mind and went there.

>>Self serving pin heads like you brought this on.

>Oh really.....I was so busy leaving peope to their own devices that, oh
>well, they just went crazy. If I were someone like YOU and TOLD them what to
>do then we wouldn't be in this mess, right?

I can TELL them what to do all I want you can tell them what not to do
all you want but choices where made and those choices had consequences
if you didn't do the drgus there wouldn't be suppliers period the end.

>>Wake up and look around Mr Cigne the police are not rich people the
>>police did not put corrupt officials into office.

>No, but they are the people that hold the gun to your head when you decide
>you will not obey those corrupt officials.

Which you have the power to change EVERY election year. And it's not
obeying or disobeyign the corrupt officials it's if you obey or
disobey the law.

>>>>Other then that
>>>>police have one primary job..ENFORCE the law.
>>>>If you see them
>>>>harrasing people who have voilated the law then they are doing the job
>>>>they were hired for.
>>
>>>Which is why they are ALL an immediate threat to all citizens and worthly of
>>>preventative self-defense through execution.
>>
>>Ohh of course the LOGICAL and Constitutional approach. "Shall provide
>>for -LIFE-, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" Yet you would
>>advocate killing them.. Label yourself traitor then

>When someone promises to bring harm upon your person, you must take action.

Hmmm so since you have twice promised to bring harm on my person I
should take action?? Be thankful I have more stringent values and
understanding of the law then you.

>>>>If you obey the law they <gasp> won't bother
>>>>you.
>>
>>>Some people have a problem with being a slave. Some people do not buckle
>>>from the threat of coercion.
>>
>>Slavery?? do you know what slavery was or is Cigne?? You have a say
>>you have rights you can do something about your position. Slaves
>>could not do that. If you are a Slave Cigne no one but yourself made
>>you that way.

>One can ALLOW themselves to become a slave (as you have) but it still
>takes someone to dominate them. It is you, the police, that do it.

Wrong again Cigne your own fears and delusions will hold you a much
more dependant slave then any officer or task master. If nothing else
Cigne I can say my thoughts are free can you?

>>>>>ad nauseum, when there are obviously more
>>>>>important things for them to do. And the punishments for
>>>>>victimless drug crimes are so cruel and disproportionate
>>>>>that no decent human being could be a part of that system.
>>>>
>>>>That is your opinion and has nothing to do with the police. Take it
>>>>up with the law makers or don't break the laws you can't go around in
>>>>life blaming everyone else you want to break the law then you better
>>>>be ready for the consequences.
>>
>>>And so should you........
>>
>>Please

>bang...

>>>>>We don't see you as our protectors, we see you as the
>>>>>muscle behind a government that violates our common law
>>>>>rights of property and passage, tax collectors, bounty
>>>>>hunters who work on commission.
>>>>
>>>>Right sure commision you seen law enforcement salaries of late? Of
>>>>course if you voilate that law we aren't going to be your protectors
>>>>we are sworn to uphold the LAW which the majority of the people
>>>>through the representives the elect have willed.
>>
>>>The majority and congress have no authority to legislate my freedom and
>>>rights away.
>>
>>Your rights end where someone elses begins.

>DUH!!!! You fucking moron!!!!! And then you say you have no rights when they
>laws state otherwise!!!!!

There is a clear and understandable sentence.. NOT

>>Guess what this country
>>is based on the good of the many not of the few so yes the majority
>>can do just that if you view murder for example as your right

>This country was based on individual liberty, personal responsibility, and
>freedom from government. Your sadistic government control power trip has no
>place here.

Last I knew the government didn't tell you how much food you can buy,
where you can live, what you can say, where you can go, etc I'd day
your pretty much clear on the liberty, freedom from government, but it
seems your missing the personal responsibility seem you wanna blame
government and law enforcement for everything instead of yourself for
it.

[Hemp Man]

fire...@tiac.net wrote:
>
> dci...@superlink.net (Dave Cinege) wrote:
>
> >In <545jjt$m...@news-central.tiac.net>, fire...@tiac.net writes:
> >>t...@ix.netcom.com(Tom Potter) wrote:
> >>
> >>>In <326aa87d...@news.alt.net> pana...@juno.com (Usenet's Panache)
> >>>writes:
> >>>>
> >>>>On 17 Oct 1996 00:25:17 GMT, doper <do...@inner.city.net> uttered
> >>>>these pearls of wisdom:
> >>>>

>

> >And who the fuck are you to decide that limit!!1?!!?
>
> I didn't you elected representitives did. You don't like it you take
> it up with them.

Like with the national speed limit. Civil disobedience finally paid off
when the government realized it was spending mucho time trying to
enforce an unenforcable law. Sometimes, mo matter how many millions of
letters, calls, etc the corupt politicians get, they continue to pass
corrupt law to justify yet more corrupt police. It is within our rights
as American citizens to simply ignore unjust laws. I'd quote the
Constitution and the Bill of Rights, but I already know how little
respect many cops and cop-wanna-be's have for this most important to
America document.

>
> >>>I have never had an accident yet I have received many
> >>>tickets, almost all in speed traps in states and
> >>>communities notorious for it.
> >>
> >>And you kept on speeding anyway instead of following the posted speed
> >>limit. My god what a tragedy of justice. What's the old saying
> >>better to be thought of a follow then open your mouth and prove it. I
> >>mean how STUPID can you be then going into an area you know has speed
> >>traps and speeding. Hell I'd double your ticket if you told me that.
> >>Then again I don't give speeding tickets so I guess you lucked out.
>
> >And I'm sure you follow the limits, huh piggy? No? Oh that's right you're
> >special you KNOW whats best for the rest of us.
>
> I follow the limits at all times save when responding to emergencies
> and even then within -MY- tolerences and under the law. Nor again did
> I or anyother cop make the limit your elected representitives did.
> What's the matter coward can't take responsibility for your own
> actions. Poor little Cigne all picked on no one understands you. Ya
> right.

I am trying hard to believe you, but presidence and history tell
everyone that you are probably lying. You are right, though, it wasn't
corrupt cops that made the corrupt laws, it was corrupt politicians and
sometimes just brain damaged politicians. The problem here is that the
right to take responsibility has been diluted to the point that there
isn't any. The only comment I can make on the rest of this tiny tirade
is it sounds more like a schoolyard bully by the moment.

>
> >YOU SICK BASTARD EGO POWER FREAK! Rot! Rot!
>
> I'm not the one telling you all how to live or what other peoples
> feelings ought to be. I'm not the one tell you how to think or trying
> to decide for you what is right or wrong. Who is the real power freak
> Cigne?? Try looking in the mirror

Really? So everytime you stop a speeder instead of spending that 5 or
10 or 30 minutes or more instead of stopping real criminals raping or
robbing or killing, you aren't deciding which is right and which is
wrong? It's just easier to spot and stop a speeder than catch a real
criminal. If your job really depended on you finding real criminals, I
just bet you'd already be out of a job.

[Lee Taylor]

Christopher Morton wrote:
>
> Other than the mentally incompetent, it isn't the job of government to
> protect us from ourselves.
>
> When it takes on that task, we inevitably end up needing someone to
> protect us from government.

Now _THAT_ says it all!

--
Lee Taylor http://www.tco.net/~lee/index.html

Independent Website Management -- The lowest rates on the WWW.
The Nor Cal Eagle Newspaper -- A pub. Of, By, and For The People.
Blue Ice -- Get the files the government has on
you.

[Dave Cinege]

In <Forum.8459258...@mattn.bandley1.netmanage.com>, ma...@netmanage.com writes:
>
>In Article Re: the police as political instruments ,
>Dave Cinege <dci...@superlink.net> wrote:
>
>[self-depreciating anecdotes Dave apparently doesn't believe deleted for brevity]

>
>> Are you really tring to fool us with this crock of shit piggy?
>

> *sigh*
>
> No, Dave, I'm not trying to fool anybody. Yes, these incidents really happened
> to me.

Sure they did....
Would mind if I decided to come visit you in the land of La La?
Reality has been getting down on me too.....

[fire...@tiac.net]

Hemp Man <hem...@mindspring.com> wrote:

>fire...@tiac.net wrote:
>>
>> dci...@superlink.net (Dave Cinege) wrote:
>>
>> >In <545jjt$m...@news-central.tiac.net>, fire...@tiac.net writes:
>> >>t...@ix.netcom.com(Tom Potter) wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>In <326aa87d...@news.alt.net> pana...@juno.com (Usenet's Panache)
>> >>>writes:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>On 17 Oct 1996 00:25:17 GMT, doper <do...@inner.city.net> uttered
>> >>>>these pearls of wisdom:
>> >>>>

>>

>> >And who the fuck are you to decide that limit!!1?!!?
>>
>> I didn't you elected representitives did. You don't like it you take
>> it up with them.

> Like with the national speed limit. Civil disobedience finally paid off

>when the government realized it was spending mucho time trying to
>enforce an unenforcable law. Sometimes, mo matter how many millions of
>letters, calls, etc the corupt politicians get, they continue to pass
>corrupt law to justify yet more corrupt police. It is within our rights
>as American citizens to simply ignore unjust laws. I'd quote the
>Constitution and the Bill of Rights, but I already know how little
>respect many cops and cop-wanna-be's have for this most important to
>America document.

Cops and cop wanna-bes as you put it have HIGH reguard for the
document they just don't see it in the same light you do. And as far
as I am concerned I'm happy the change was made. But don't be quite
so stupid as to equate new police with corrupt or even police with
corrupt it simply isn't true and if you were being rational you'd
admit that.

>>
>> >>>I have never had an accident yet I have received many
>> >>>tickets, almost all in speed traps in states and
>> >>>communities notorious for it.
>> >>
>> >>And you kept on speeding anyway instead of following the posted speed
>> >>limit. My god what a tragedy of justice. What's the old saying
>> >>better to be thought of a follow then open your mouth and prove it. I
>> >>mean how STUPID can you be then going into an area you know has speed
>> >>traps and speeding. Hell I'd double your ticket if you told me that.
>> >>Then again I don't give speeding tickets so I guess you lucked out.
>>
>> >And I'm sure you follow the limits, huh piggy? No? Oh that's right you're
>> >special you KNOW whats best for the rest of us.
>>
>> I follow the limits at all times save when responding to emergencies
>> and even then within -MY- tolerences and under the law. Nor again did
>> I or anyother cop make the limit your elected representitives did.
>> What's the matter coward can't take responsibility for your own
>> actions. Poor little Cigne all picked on no one understands you. Ya
>> right.

> I am trying hard to believe you, but presidence and history tell

>everyone that you are probably lying. You are right, though, it wasn't
>corrupt cops that made the corrupt laws, it was corrupt politicians and
>sometimes just brain damaged politicians. The problem here is that the
>right to take responsibility has been diluted to the point that there
>isn't any. The only comment I can make on the rest of this tiny tirade
>is it sounds more like a schoolyard bully by the moment.

This is funny it tells you I'm lying I've yet to lie yet. Same cannot
be said about you. Please provide evidence of some of these past
lies. Other then that it's nice to see you finally make a few
responsible comments. I admit I've lowered some of my standards it's
VERY hard to take people like Cigne otherwise.

>>
>> >YOU SICK BASTARD EGO POWER FREAK! Rot! Rot!
>>
>> I'm not the one telling you all how to live or what other peoples
>> feelings ought to be. I'm not the one tell you how to think or trying
>> to decide for you what is right or wrong. Who is the real power freak
>> Cigne?? Try looking in the mirror

> Really? So everytime you stop a speeder instead of spending that 5 or

>10 or 30 minutes or more instead of stopping real criminals raping or
>robbing or killing, you aren't deciding which is right and which is
>wrong? It's just easier to spot and stop a speeder than catch a real
>criminal. If your job really depended on you finding real criminals, I
>just bet you'd already be out of a job.

I don't make speed stops. But in the case of cops who do remember
that most of the speeding tickets are giving by highway cops who
aren't supposed to be responding to those kinds of calls unless they
occur on or near a highway. Sheesh little facts are such a pain. My
job has notthing to do with finding criminals MY job has to do with
saving lives.

[Thor Thelasname]

I was arrested for possession (not a crime under common law)
but I was held in jail and forced in viet armis to appear before the
judge. I told the judge I was not there to enter a plea as I was on
special appearance by force of arms.
he entered a plea for me of not guilty
I filed a writ of error coram nobis to get the judge to correct the
record, making sure they took notice of my PUBLIC NOTICE OF CIVIL
DEATH AND POSITIVE IDENTIFICATION OF Ronnie Lee Smith
( see my page at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3944 )
I am civilly dead I never pleaded and my notice of venue that I filed
says that all pleading made for me or by me are a sham and done under
duress.
I was held in jail for so long that I finally plea bargained for time
served.
so it is more than not going to court,, they abuse the power they
think they have by using armed goons to force jurisdiction upon real
citizens of the republic
Interesting thing about the kentucky constitution
it says that arbitrary and absolute power exists nowhere in the
republic not even in the largest majority.
but they don't believe me when I say I live in the republic
all of my mail clearly shows that I live in Kentucky u.S.A.
not in KY 41095

[ma...@netmanage.com]

In Article Re: the police as political instruments ,
Dave Cinege <dci...@superlink.net> wrote:

[self-depreciating anecdotes Dave apparently doesn't believe deleted for brevity]

> Are you really tring to fool us with this crock of shit piggy?

*sigh*

No, Dave, I'm not trying to fool anybody. Yes, these incidents really happened

to me. No, I am not a cop. They don't pay enough.

-Matt

[Francis A. Ney, Jr.]

In article <326aa87d...@news.alt.net> pana...@juno.com writes:

> >paying our automobile registration
>
> Do you think upkeep of the roads is free? And if payment wasn't
> mandatory, do you think people would just donate money?

Considering that for all intents and purposes, the fuel tax funds road
construction and upkeep, what is the real purpose of registration tags?

(I'll give you a hint: They were rather infamous bank robbers whose sole
claim to fame was the use of the new-fangled "automobile" in their criminal
exploits.)

> >And the punishments for
> >victimless drug crimes are so cruel and disproportionate
> >that no decent human being could be a part of that system.
>

> Victimless?!? HAH!
>
> Who's being naive now? You haven't seen entire families torn apart by
> drugs, have you? Entire lives destroyed.

Entire lives and families are destroyed by alcohol, too. Yet alcohol is
legal.

This is the fatal achilles' heel of DARE.

I wish people would hurry up and re-learn the lessons of Prohibition I.

> Hey. I've come to expect most people to dislike cops. As a grizzled
> old sergeant once told me "You only deal with four types of people -
> The Sick, The Psychos, The Selfish and The Unlucky." And he was
> right. Nobody likes getting a ticket. And nobody likes getting
> arrested when they break the law.

Especially when that law leaves the definition of the crime to the discretion,
or indiscretion, of the arresting officer. It only takes one instance of
being arrested for taking psedoephedrine in public, or watching an angina
patient get a $250 ticket for taking his nitroglycerine ("No Eating On the
Subway") before the average citizen learns that cops are really pigs, and not
the friend the public school system tries to promote.

> Anyway, WE don't right the laws. Your elected representatives do.
> When we were sworn into office, we swore to uphold the laws of the
> community we were in.
>
> Nowhere in this oath of office does it say that we can decide that we
> don't like a certain law, and not enforce it.

"I don't make the laws, I only enforce them."

Cops who say this are on the same moral level as the Gestapo and the SS.

---
Frank Ney WV/EMT-B VA/EMT-A N4ZHG LPWV NRA(L) GOA CCRKBA JPFO
Sponsor, BATF Abuse page http://www.access.digex.net/~croaker/batfabus.html
West Virginia Coordinator, Libertarian Second Amendment Caucus
NOTICE: Flaming email received will be posted to the appropriate newsgroups
- --
"Politically speaking, we're compelled by circumstances to resign ourselves
to the unpleasant fact that 1996 isn't going to be a very good year for the
cause of individual liberty. Not with the Democratic Fascist Party being led
by a terrorist mass-murderer and his crooked wife, Lady Macbeth, the
Socialist Republican Party opting to run a retarded zombie for President, and
the Drool-chinned Stumblebum Party (oops, make that 'we' Libertarians) giving
a spastic nod and a belch to an electoral cross between Werner 'EST' Erhard
and Immanuel Velikovsky." - L. Neil Smith

[Dave Cinege]

Where? Have you ever read the constitution?

>otherwords the legislature cannot legalize murder save in case of the
>puplic good ie someone who has or will kill many people. It cannot
>knowingly legalize a toxin for use on the public. It cannot legalize
>potential threats to the rights and lives of the public the Supreame
>court stands to ensure that.

......Obviously you have not.

>>The 9th amendment also provides for individual liberty.
>
>Within the confines of the right of others. You rights end where
>anothers begin.

Agreed.....but how do you keep justifying victimless crimes?

>>Of course you would know this if you acctually knew about the law; if you
>>knew what your oath really means. But you're nothing more then a
>>political thug, you enjoy it, and I'm sure you don't care otherwise.
>
>I am no thug we've been down this road before. I do know about the
>law and what my oaths mean I took them :) I don't always enjoy my
>work mostly becuase of the crap I have to see and deal with. Things
>you claim don't happen and don't exist.

Denial....how fitting.

>The only thing you are sure
>of is your own ego.
>>>Not the Majority for the american public or
>>>action would have been taken.
>
>>You sick fuck...
>
>How am I a sick fuck because I belive the people have power over their
>own lives and can decide for themselves?

No because you stated that the Majority have power over peoples lives.

>Yes I must be insane only we

Ahhh, progress. Admitting your problem is the first step in recovery.

>"political thugs" can come to our senses rebel and overthrow the
>corrupt government.
>In case you have forgotten that would be in sense
>a military coup and is in violation of the Constituion which did not
>want a military power in control of the nation. If you want the
>police to not enforce the law the people need to make it clear that
>THEY so desire it not just a few people and not the police.

Enforcing law is not the problem. Enforcing colorable law is.
Learn the difference.

>>>You cannot dictate for the people what
>>>is and is not Constitutional Nor is this something to take issue with
>>>the police about but with YOUR elected representives get the laws
>>>changed if you can get the people of america to agree with you and the
>>>police will happily deal with other problems.
>
>>#1 Run on sentence
>
>Yippidy do da yippidy yay

Ok so recovery for you will be slow...... : /

>>#2 You're not too bright, are you? You've just contradicted yourself by
>>saying that the legislatures and congress can dictate what the constitution
>>means. The constitution is the law of the land. It is literal in meaning,
>>limited in scope (for governmental authority), and can not be changed by
>>anyone except through a specific amendment process. You are the one making
>>the subjective judgement of what is and is not constitutional when you
>>enforce laws. Have you ever arrested someone for weapons
>>possession? Then YOU BROKE THE LAW!!!
>
>No I didn't say a word about the Legistalture making
>constitutionality. I said get the legislature to change the law. And
>actually I said talk to your ELECTED representitives the president who
>appoints the SC bench and the legislature which aproves it. So no I
>didn't contradict anything you seem to have forgotten how the
>Constituion stated government is to be run. Actually No I haven't the
>Law of the land states "The right to bear arms in a well regulated
>militia" not the right to walk around with an ak-47 loaded.

No the "..., the right of the people to keep and bear Arms..."

And that's exactly what it means.

>>>>>Speed limits set for saftey by the state/county and by the Federal
>>>>>government clearly marked. Police enforcing the law is h
assling.
>>>
>>>>Violation of the Constitution and the common law. It is null and void. It is
>>>>colorable when enforced.
>>>
>>>Speed limits are VERY Constitutional and are there to protect the
>>>right to live and to optimise liberty.. you have accidence they cause
>>>traffic traffic is an impediment to liberty. Get a clue.
>
>>Horse shit. Speed limits are not even real law, they are quasi-law. They are
>>not recognized in the Constitution, and you are afforded no rights when they
>>are enforced. They violate the common law. They are subjective is nature IE
>>who are you to say 55mph is the limit? Some states is more. Some states it's
>>less.
>
>Exactly the STATES may regulate internally all roads for which it is
>sovergn.

That states are not sovereign on PUBLIC LAND.

> All roads which are interstate in nature and for the
>protection of free commerce are under Federal regulation and shall so
>be maintained. This too is in the Constituion. Try reading it you
>will find the section that mandates regulation of highways.

It only sets forth post raod, and road for interstate commerce you boob.
And even if what you said is true then the normal person carrying out day to
day operations does not fall under 'commerce among the states' and is
outside of federal jurisdiction.

>>>>>Paying for registration and inspection to prove the vehicle is safe
>>>>>for use around the public. So police enforcing the law is hassling.
>>>
>>>>Violation of the Constitution and the common law. It is null and void. It is
>>>>colorable when enforced.
>>>
>>>Perhaps perhaps not take issue with your elected rep and leave the
>>>police to doing their duty as chartered and requested.
>
>>When your job is being the hand of the body that trys to abolish my property
>>rights expect to get shot!!!
>
>Shoot me Cigne and you shot the only one who would have fixed the
>bullet wound you'd be riddled with afterward. Intelligent discourse
>is the proper redress of grievance armed conflict only to be used in
>case of last resort this TOO is written into the Constitution would
>you still so violate it?

No it is not. (you slept though history class, huh?)
The Unanimous Declaration states "[when long term governmental abuses can
not be remedied through normal means] it is their right, it is their duty,
to throw off such Governemnt, and to provide new Guards for their future
security"

>>>>>I'm seeing a theme here police doing their job enforcing the law isn't
>>>>>what you want. Guess what those laws can be changed if you talk to
>>>>>your legislators and the majority of america agrees.
>>>
>>>>Freedom comes from birith, not the 'privilege's' people in high places
>>>>decide you SHOULD have. The purpose of the law is to enumerate the powers
>>>>the government has when you infringe upon the rights of other citizens.
>>>>The victimless crime laws you enforce are nothing more then a means of
>>>>oppressive big government control. They are immoral. They are
>>>>unconstitional. And may you rot in the fithest deepest darkest hole for
>>>>initiating force against those that have not harmed you or any other person.
>>>
>>><laugh> rot in the deepest darkest hole?? Sorry been there done that.
>>>I've seen the results of your victimless crimes daily for the past 8
>>>years not as a police officer <it seems you moronic bashers can't
>>>read> but as a rescue officer.
>
>>Your psychosis is that of a cop....it matters not if you wear a badge......
>>(though I think you are lying)
>
>My psychosis?? there is no psychosis named such for cops. If you mean

Paranoid Delutional fits quite well.....

>my psyc profile that would be anoher story. I work with them alot
>I've trained with them. So yes in some issues we agree strongly in
>others well you should've looked in the threads discusssing the FOP
>endorsement of Clinton. Still you opinion of me matters little as you
>do not know me.

And I don't care to. But you have stated your willingness to harm me for
unprovacated, arbitrary means. Thus I see you as a continual threat to
my well being, and that threat should be dismissed. (And 2 to the back of
your head would be an efficient way of dismissing it)

>>> I've seen the lung cancer, consumption,
>>>the overdoses the bad trips the birth defects the fighting shooting
>>>stabbing sick diseased etc etc ad nausem for 8 years Mr. Cigne and if
>>>you think you your adled brain pig headed arrogance for one second you
>>>know whats going on think agian.
>
>>There are many prices levied for freedom. You should pay them all most
>>graciously.
>
>Yes there are many prices for freedom of that I 100% agree but be sure
>you know the difference between freedom folly and opression of a
>different nature.

Stupid....

>>> Is government to blame for our
>>>problems?? NO police NO the man NO. You wanna know who's at fault?
>
>>Well lets see......
>
>>>Look in the mirror Mr. Cigne people who think only for and about
>>>themselves. You all come to this group and bash cops left right and
>>>sideways calling them Nazis.
>
>>I've done nothing but point out what it is they do.......
>>You made your own bed. Just because it's full of shit doesn't mean you
>>shouldn't have to sleep in it.
>
>You just don't get it do you...the ego is just too big. The nazi's
>didn't come into power from strong arm tactics they were ELECTED the
>kept power by force of arms.

AS DOES OUR GOVERNMENT!

>You still have choices you can elect
>your officials if you fail in the duty you and you alone are to blame.
>The police vote according to their personal beliefs and are divded
>accordingly so do the rest of the people in this country your rights
>exist.

BLAHAHAHAHAHA AHAHAHABHABHAAHAHAHHAHHABAHBAHAAHBAHAA!

You're gone, man.....you're fucking gone!

>There for the only one who is trying to be a Nazi would be
>the one trying to enforce a minority opinion on the majority.

I'll admit to this. They'll get freedom and they will like it.

>>>Well guess what the cops did make
>>>millions off selling tabacco to kids upping the addictive qualities
>>>and thriving off of the addiction. The police didn't say well I want
>>>a high paying job and all the good things in life who cares about the
>>>community.
>
>>No, they felt the need to be in control and took a job that would allow
>>them to cater to their egos and feel special.
>
>Look who's talking about ego. But no that is not why they took the
>job.

Oh yeah....I forgot.
They also get to beat people, with no legal repercussions.

>>> The police aren't the ones making parents use TV's
>>>computers and any single other item they can as babysitters.
>
>>No, but they enforce the laws that destroyed the family unit.
>
>Wrong the family unit was destroyed by personal ambition, intolerance,
>arrogance, and lack of discipline. No law yet created induces divorce
>or makes parents avoid taking care of their children.

Stupid....

>>>The
>>>Police didn't force the drugs down your throat or invite the gangs and
>>>scum to supply it to you.
>
>>No, but they enforce the laws that created the drug problem, engulfing
>>our country in the same turmoil that happened during the first
>>prohibition.
>
>Wrong Cigne you did the minute you said I wanna get high for anyreason
>other then medical need. YOU brought them in not the police not the
>government

How naive. That's why they are illegal. The government cornered the market.
Need I cite refereces?

>YOU made the choice. And it was a CHOICE.

And my choice is to take no drugs. I don't even drink.......You want to
punish me for having that choice.

>>> No sir police are not the culprit of the
>>>crimes you mention.
>
>>Aren't they? Maybe you should think about what you wrote.
>
>I have each individual has a choice no one forced a selection you made
>up your own mind and went there.

And so did the cops.....

>>>Self serving pin heads like you brought this on.
>
>>Oh really.....I was so busy leaving peope to their own devices that, oh
>>well, they just went crazy. If I were someone like YOU and TOLD them what to
>>do then we wouldn't be in this mess, right?
>
>I can TELL them what to do all I want you can tell them what not to do
>all you want but choices where made and those choices had consequences
>if you didn't do the drgus there wouldn't be suppliers period the end.

If there wasn't the high profit margin there wouldn't be the suppliers.

Open up a history book and read about the first round of prohibition, and
exactly have the marijuana tax stamp act came about.

>>>Wake up and look around Mr Cigne the police are not rich people the
>>>police did not put corrupt officials into office.
>
>>No, but they are the people that hold the gun to your head when you decide
>>you will not obey those corrupt officials.
>
>Which you have the power to change EVERY election year. And it's not
>obeying or disobeyign the corrupt officials it's if you obey or
>disobey the law.

I can not change it through my vote. Only a majority can.

I will not be disposed to suffering just because others believe something is
just or unjust.

>>>>>Other then that
>>>>>police have one primary job..ENFORCE the law.
>>>>>If you see them
>>>>>harrasing people who have voilated the law then they are doing the job
>>>>>they were hired for.
>>>
>>>>Which is why they are ALL an immediate threat to all citizens and worthly of
>>>>preventative self-defense through execution.
>>>
>>>Ohh of course the LOGICAL and Constitutional approach. "Shall provide
>>>for -LIFE-, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" Yet you would
>>>advocate killing them.. Label yourself traitor then
>
>>When someone promises to bring harm upon your person, you must take action.
>
>Hmmm so since you have twice promised to bring harm on my person I
>should take action?? Be thankful I have more stringent values and
>understanding of the law then you.

You threatened me with bodily injury several times in your post.

>>>>>If you obey the law they <gasp> won't bother
>>>>>you.
>>>
>>>>Some people have a problem with being a slave. Some people do not buckle
>>>>from the threat of coercion.
>>>
>>>Slavery?? do you know what slavery was or is Cigne?? You have a say
>>>you have rights you can do something about your position. Slaves
>>>could not do that. If you are a Slave Cigne no one but yourself made
>>>you that way.
>
>>One can ALLOW themselves to become a slave (as you have) but it still
>>takes someone to dominate them. It is you, the police, that do it.
>
>Wrong again Cigne your own fears and delusions will hold you a much

Can't you spell my name right you dumb ass?

>more dependant slave then any officer or task master. If nothing else
>Cigne I can say my thoughts are free can you?

All thoughts are free. But my actions, though bearing no threat to others,
are continually met with violence. And you seem to think this is OK.

But they said what kind I can buy....

>where you can live,

indeed they do, as wall as how I must live.

>what you can say,

Ha! Tel that to the family facing federal charges for telling the president
"You Suck". Funny but the same term will allow the IRS to use force against
you. Dude you need to wake up.

>where you can go

If I qualify for all their licences and permits, and abide by the
regulations attached to them.

etc I'd day
>your pretty much clear on the liberty, freedom from government, but it
>seems your missing the personal responsibility seem you wanna blame
>government and law enforcement for everything instead of yourself for
>it.

I am a live and let live person. I ask for nothing from the state, and I own
nothing to it. I will not accept a penny I have not earned, no mater how
many I may qualify for. The only thing I have EVER wanted from the
government was to be left alone. They are the ones that started the problem
by interfering with my life and threatening my person.

If they would simply go away I would be a happy boy.

[Dave Cinege]

In <54gpan$a...@news-central.tiac.net>, fire...@tiac.net writes:
>
>I don't make speed stops. But in the case of cops who do remember
>that most of the speeding tickets are giving by highway cops who
>aren't supposed to be responding to those kinds of calls unless they
>occur on or near a highway.

So you admit that their main responsibility is that of a road tax collector?

[samson.f.mischkind]

In article <54huu7$k...@earth.superlink.net>, dci...@psychosis.com (Dave
Cinege) wrote:

> In <54gpan$a...@news-central.tiac.net>, fire...@tiac.net writes:
> >

> >I don't make speed stops. But in the case of cops who do remember
> >that most of the speeding tickets are giving by highway cops who
> >aren't supposed to be responding to those kinds of calls unless they
> >occur on or near a highway.
>

> So you admit that their main responsibility is that of a road tax collector?

> Large

This is certainly true in many cases. But it should not be blown out of
proportion to the point that it is said of _all_ traffic stops. There is
the problem of limited resources for enforcement of traffic laws. So it
sometimes seems that one's being stopped is either an arbitrary "profile
stop" or a part of a revenue-raising scam, especially when one sees far
more egregious violations go unpunished. But not every violation _can_ be
dealt with, unless troopers were literally to line the side of the
highway.

Then, of course, there are those borderlands where small towns make sure
to pull over as many out of state licensed drivers as possible because
they know they'll never challenge the conviction. Anyone who denies that
this happens on a reasonably large scale in certain parts of the country
is fooling themselves.

What gets me about traffic codes, especially when it comes to speeding, is
that it is usually so obvious where the speed traps are, that all one
needs to do is slow down in patrolled areas. I am not saying this is bad
necessarily: it does cause people to slow down. Seems to me, though, that
when a stretch of highway is clear, and someone happens to be going 65 in
a 55, if a citation is given, it is almost surely part of a revenue
mini-scam. On the other hand, those who go zooming through obviously
patrolled areas when other cars are on the road (and slowing accordingly),
deserve to be ticketed if not for recklessness then for sheer stupidity.

> "Just cause ya got the power, that don't mean ya got the right!" - Lemmy

Damn straight. The downfall of political discourse in this country owes a
lot to the unfamiliarity of our leaders with Motorhead.

[fire...@tiac.net]

dci...@superlink.net (Dave Cinege) wrote:

<snipped for size>

>>
>>>A long standing (oh 400 years or so) part of the common law is that if there
>>>is no victim that can show injury or lose there is no crime. The basic
>>>system of english common law was adopted with the Constitution (according to
>>>the Supreme court) and thus it is superior law, only less in authority then
>>>the Constitution itself.
>>
>>Yep less then the constitution it's self which states that
>>endangerment of the rights and lives of others is not permitted. In

>Where? Have you ever read the constitution?

Yes I have many times. It's written in several wording throughout the
document. From the Preamble the sections on Habius Corpus to state vs
federal rights. The problem that is becoming evident is that you have
read it without undestanding anything in the document.

>>otherwords the legislature cannot legalize murder save in case of the
>>puplic good ie someone who has or will kill many people. It cannot
>>knowingly legalize a toxin for use on the public. It cannot legalize
>>potential threats to the rights and lives of the public the Supreame
>>court stands to ensure that.

>......Obviously you have not.

Of course Cigne you are all knowing.

>>>The 9th amendment also provides for individual liberty.
>>
>>Within the confines of the right of others. You rights end where
>>anothers begin.

>Agreed.....but how do you keep justifying victimless crimes?

There is no such thing as a victimless crime the problem is that your
not getting through your head that You yourself maybe a victim or are
endangering others. So the issue is not how do I justify it it's how
do you deny the danger to others?

>>>Of course you would know this if you acctually knew about the law; if you
>>>knew what your oath really means. But you're nothing more then a
>>>political thug, you enjoy it, and I'm sure you don't care otherwise.
>>
>>I am no thug we've been down this road before. I do know about the
>>law and what my oaths mean I took them :) I don't always enjoy my
>>work mostly becuase of the crap I have to see and deal with. Things
>>you claim don't happen and don't exist.

>Denial....how fitting.

Where do you get denial from?

>>The only thing you are sure
>>of is your own ego.
>>>>Not the Majority for the american public or
>>>>action would have been taken.
>>
>>>You sick fuck...
>>
>>How am I a sick fuck because I belive the people have power over their
>>own lives and can decide for themselves?

>No because you stated that the Majority have power over peoples lives.

And who is the Majority you half-wit?? The people! your and my
fellows! This is a Democratic Republic as was written and formed by
the constitution. the individual has a say in the law but the
majority does so decide the law. THIS was what was written and fought
for or why else have a government? And this is why you are clearly
incapable of being even remotely right because you fail to understand
that we are all bound together.

>>Yes I must be insane only we

>Ahhh, progress. Admitting your problem is the first step in recovery.

Take your own advice,

>>"political thugs" can come to our senses rebel and overthrow the
>>corrupt government.
>>In case you have forgotten that would be in sense
>>a military coup and is in violation of the Constituion which did not
>>want a military power in control of the nation. If you want the
>>police to not enforce the law the people need to make it clear that
>>THEY so desire it not just a few people and not the police.

>Enforcing law is not the problem. Enforcing colorable law is.
>Learn the difference.

Your definition of colorable and mine is quite different.

>>>>You cannot dictate for the people what
>>>>is and is not Constitutional Nor is this something to take issue with
>>>>the police about but with YOUR elected representives get the laws
>>>>changed if you can get the people of america to agree with you and the
>>>>police will happily deal with other problems.
>>
>>>#1 Run on sentence
>>
>>Yippidy do da yippidy yay

>Ok so recovery for you will be slow...... : /

Thank you so much Dr. Cigne
<sniped for space>

>>No I didn't say a word about the Legistalture making
>>constitutionality. I said get the legislature to change the law. And
>>actually I said talk to your ELECTED representitives the president who
>>appoints the SC bench and the legislature which aproves it. So no I
>>didn't contradict anything you seem to have forgotten how the
>>Constituion stated government is to be run. Actually No I haven't the
>>Law of the land states "The right to bear arms in a well regulated
>>militia" not the right to walk around with an ak-47 loaded.

>No the "..., the right of the people to keep and bear Arms..."

Which you can do but it never said what kind of arms and it never
denied a state the right to limit such only that Congress shall not.

>And that's exactly what it means.

Congradulations one small piece of logic in 4 posts on pointless
insanity.

>>>>>>Speed limits set for saftey by the state/county and by the Federal
>>>>>>government clearly marked. Police enforcing the law is h
>assling.
>>>>
>>>>>Violation of the Constitution and the common law. It is null and void. It is
>>>>>colorable when enforced.
>>>>
>>>>Speed limits are VERY Constitutional and are there to protect the
>>>>right to live and to optimise liberty.. you have accidence they cause
>>>>traffic traffic is an impediment to liberty. Get a clue.
>>
>>>Horse shit. Speed limits are not even real law, they are quasi-law. They are
>>>not recognized in the Constitution, and you are afforded no rights when they
>>>are enforced. They violate the common law. They are subjective is nature IE
>>>who are you to say 55mph is the limit? Some states is more. Some states it's
>>>less.
>>
>>Exactly the STATES may regulate internally all roads for which it is
>>sovergn.

>That states are not sovereign on PUBLIC LAND.

Yes actually they ARE the states are the custodians of public land.
They are not sovereign on private land.

>> All roads which are interstate in nature and for the
>>protection of free commerce are under Federal regulation and shall so
>>be maintained. This too is in the Constituion. Try reading it you
>>will find the section that mandates regulation of highways.

>It only sets forth post raod, and road for interstate commerce you boob.
>And even if what you said is true then the normal person carrying out day to
>day operations does not fall under 'commerce among the states' and is
>outside of federal jurisdiction.

Wrong because free comerce can be effected by anyone who endagers said
roads there for all traffic or such roads are subject to jusitiction.
Which the Federal government has handed to the States who are
empowered to do so anyway.

<sniped>

>>
>>>When your job is being the hand of the body that trys to abolish my property
>>>rights expect to get shot!!!
>>
>>Shoot me Cigne and you shot the only one who would have fixed the
>>bullet wound you'd be riddled with afterward. Intelligent discourse
>>is the proper redress of grievance armed conflict only to be used in
>>case of last resort this TOO is written into the Constitution would
>>you still so violate it?

>No it is not. (you slept though history class, huh?)
>The Unanimous Declaration states "[when long term governmental abuses can
>not be remedied through normal means] it is their right, it is their duty,
>to throw off such Governemnt, and to provide new Guards for their future
>security"

Hmm you just said EXACTLY the same thing I did. That as long as the
ability to remedy governmental abuses exists in normal means you are
not to commit to use of force. You can still vote and can still speak
you still have the power to change what is going on through the means
Laid out in the Constitution. Therefor you have threatend me without
cause and provocation and have voiced desire to violate the
constitution. Who is in the wrong here?

<sniped>

>>My psychosis?? there is no psychosis named such for cops. If you mean

>Paranoid Delutional fits quite well.....

Really it does?? I have never said people are out to get me and take
my rights and freedom away. I have never made up elaborate plans to
kill people to defend against it etc. However look at your own
postings. Look at your own comments words thoughts and actions.. You
are a classic case for it.

>>my psyc profile that would be anoher story. I work with them alot
>>I've trained with them. So yes in some issues we agree strongly in
>>others well you should've looked in the threads discusssing the FOP
>>endorsement of Clinton. Still you opinion of me matters little as you
>>do not know me.

>And I don't care to. But you have stated your willingness to harm me for
>unprovacated, arbitrary means. Thus I see you as a continual threat to
>my well being, and that threat should be dismissed. (And 2 to the back of
>your head would be an efficient way of dismissing it)

I have yet to threaten you once you have done so to me in every post
and here state the thought or intent of firing opon me with my back to
you. and WHO is stated willingness to harm without provocation? Who
is paranoid?? Get a clue and better yet get help soon before you wind
up a statistic.. You are not by chance and Postal employee are you?

>>>> I've seen the lung cancer, consumption,
>>>>the overdoses the bad trips the birth defects the fighting shooting
>>>>stabbing sick diseased etc etc ad nausem for 8 years Mr. Cigne and if
>>>>you think you your adled brain pig headed arrogance for one second you
>>>>know whats going on think agian.
>>
>>>There are many prices levied for freedom. You should pay them all most
>>>graciously.
>>
>>Yes there are many prices for freedom of that I 100% agree but be sure
>>you know the difference between freedom folly and opression of a
>>different nature.

>Stupid....

How so becuase I'm stating things you don't want to face Cigne? Well
wake up and look around! it's real and it's true and your adled
brained delusions don't have answers for them does it? You don't want
to face your own folly thats fine don't try to force others down the
same drain.

>>>> Is government to blame for our
>>>>problems?? NO police NO the man NO. You wanna know who's at fault?
>>
>>>Well lets see......
>>
>>>>Look in the mirror Mr. Cigne people who think only for and about
>>>>themselves. You all come to this group and bash cops left right and
>>>>sideways calling them Nazis.
>>
>>>I've done nothing but point out what it is they do.......
>>>You made your own bed. Just because it's full of shit doesn't mean you
>>>shouldn't have to sleep in it.
>>
>>You just don't get it do you...the ego is just too big. The nazi's
>>didn't come into power from strong arm tactics they were ELECTED the
>>kept power by force of arms.

>AS DOES OUR GOVERNMENT!

No the American people are completely capable of changing it of
calling for the removal of all the Elected officals and starting
again. The police nor the military have made anymove to prevent that
EVER. The power remains in your hands to make the changes you want IF
the rest of the public agrees with you. You are too much of a fool
and coward to face that.

>>You still have choices you can elect
>>your officials if you fail in the duty you and you alone are to blame.
>>The police vote according to their personal beliefs and are divded
>>accordingly so do the rest of the people in this country your rights
>>exist.

>BLAHAHAHAHAHA AHAHAHABHABHAAHAHAHHAHHABAHBAHAAHBAHAA!

>You're gone, man.....you're fucking gone!

Whatever

>>There for the only one who is trying to be a Nazi would be
>>the one trying to enforce a minority opinion on the majority.

>I'll admit to this. They'll get freedom and they will like it.

Look to your own ego and self first Cigne Tyrants always come to a
messy end.

>>>>Well guess what the cops did make
>>>>millions off selling tabacco to kids upping the addictive qualities
>>>>and thriving off of the addiction. The police didn't say well I want
>>>>a high paying job and all the good things in life who cares about the
>>>>community.
>>
>>>No, they felt the need to be in control and took a job that would allow
>>>them to cater to their egos and feel special.
>>
>>Look who's talking about ego. But no that is not why they took the
>>job.

>Oh yeah....I forgot.
>They also get to beat people, with no legal repercussions.

Wrong again.

>>>> The police aren't the ones making parents use TV's
>>>>computers and any single other item they can as babysitters.
>>
>>>No, but they enforce the laws that destroyed the family unit.
>>
>>Wrong the family unit was destroyed by personal ambition, intolerance,
>>arrogance, and lack of discipline. No law yet created induces divorce
>>or makes parents avoid taking care of their children.

>Stupid....

Again you can't face facts it's so much easier to close out reality
and imagine you have all the answers isn't it.

>>>>The
>>>>Police didn't force the drugs down your throat or invite the gangs and
>>>>scum to supply it to you.
>>
>>>No, but they enforce the laws that created the drug problem, engulfing
>>>our country in the same turmoil that happened during the first
>>>prohibition.
>>
>>Wrong Cigne you did the minute you said I wanna get high for anyreason
>>other then medical need. YOU brought them in not the police not the
>>government

>How naive. That's why they are illegal. The government cornered the market.
>Need I cite refereces?

Please do preferable legitimate source proving the government is
suplying illegal drugs to the american public.

>>YOU made the choice. And it was a CHOICE.

>And my choice is to take no drugs. I don't even drink.......You want to
>punish me for having that choice.

Nope not taking drugs is the legal and proper choice you don't get
punished for it. You get punished for making bad and illegal choices.
It's pretty simple actually.

>>>> No sir police are not the culprit of the
>>>>crimes you mention.
>>
>>>Aren't they? Maybe you should think about what you wrote.
>>
>>I have each individual has a choice no one forced a selection you made
>>up your own mind and went there.

>And so did the cops.....

yep the chose to uphold the law. Which is as it should be.

<sniped>

>If there wasn't the high profit margin there wouldn't be the suppliers.

And how is there any margin?? becuase people chose to use it. There
are suppliers of items that brin one cent of profit and non profit
items which break even. All of which comes down to if people didn't
do it there wouldn't be a problem. If you don't curse at your parents
you don;t get punished if you do you do and you decided to take that
punishment. Face responsibilty Cigne.

>Open up a history book and read about the first round of prohibition, and
>exactly have the marijuana tax stamp act came about.

I'm well aware of the history of the issue and mind you it actually
started long before the US was even discovered.

>>>>Wake up and look around Mr Cigne the police are not rich people the
>>>>police did not put corrupt officials into office.
>>
>>>No, but they are the people that hold the gun to your head when you decide
>>>you will not obey those corrupt officials.
>>
>>Which you have the power to change EVERY election year. And it's not
>>obeying or disobeyign the corrupt officials it's if you obey or
>>disobey the law.

>I can not change it through my vote. Only a majority can.

Of which you can be a part. Of which you can influence through action
and speech. And note that a Majority CAN which is what the
Constitution wanted which is what I have said was the case. In other
words Cigne the system is fine you are flawed.

>I will not be disposed to suffering just because others believe something is
>just or unjust.

That is the nature of a Democracy why should the public be disposed to
suffering just because one person feels it just or unjust?

<snipped>

>You threatened me with bodily injury several times in your post.

Your delusional again I have not threatend you yet. The closest is
when you said prepare to be shot. To which I informed you the results
of your action but it was not iniated by me. Good luck finding
anythreat from me Cigne. And if you do please post it I'm sure anyone
still reading this would love to see it.

<snipped>

>Can't you spell my name right you dumb ass?

I can I have chosen not to as you have chosen not to be rational and
hold proper discourse.

>>more dependant slave then any officer or task master. If nothing else
>>Cigne I can say my thoughts are free can you?

>All thoughts are free. But my actions, though bearing no threat to others,
>are continually met with violence. And you seem to think this is OK.

Wrong only your actions which violate law are even interfered with and
it is mostlikely any violence resultant from that was started by you.
I do not feel it's okay. I do accept in some cases it is inevitable.

<snipped>

>>Last I knew the government didn't tell you how much food you can buy,

>But they said what kind I can buy....

I've yet to be stopped buying food.

>>where you can live,

>indeed they do, as wall as how I must live.

Really I've never seen the government interfer with where I choose to
live or how. Or anyone else for that matter. The only exception to
that being with Native Americans and I have SERIOUS problems with that
whole issue.

>>what you can say,

>Ha! Tel that to the family facing federal charges for telling the president
>"You Suck". Funny but the same term will allow the IRS to use force against
>you. Dude you need to wake up.

I belive those charges were dropped. As far as the IRS using force I
can't say I have any knowlage one way or the other only dealing I have
with the IRS is my taxes every year.

>>where you can go

>If I qualify for all their licences and permits, and abide by the
>regulations attached to them.

Wrong again you can travel by foot anywhere you choose to go. You can
take any form of public transportation within your means etc. Again
you fail to grasp the concept you are limited only by yourself.

> etc I'd day
>>your pretty much clear on the liberty, freedom from government, but it
>>seems your missing the personal responsibility seem you wanna blame
>>government and law enforcement for everything instead of yourself for
>>it.

>I am a live and let live person. I ask for nothing from the state, and I own
>nothing to it. I will not accept a penny I have not earned, no mater how
>many I may qualify for. The only thing I have EVER wanted from the
>government was to be left alone. They are the ones that started the problem
>by interfering with my life and threatening my person.

You are quite delusional

[Thor Thelasname]

Isn't
a Democratic republic
an oxy-moron

in a republic you govern yourself
in a democracy you follow the RULES
set down by the other members of the democracy

The Kentucky constitution says
that arbitrary or absolute power exists
nowhere in a republic

but it does exist in the corporate State of KY
which is different than the commonwealth of Kentucky
blacks law dictionary defines commonwealth as
a republic

Nothing you people say means a thing if you don't know
the difference between a republic and a democracy

in the republic you have the God granted inalienable rights
in the democracy you have government granted CIVIL rights

in the republic, the right to travel cannot be taken away
in the corporate democracy, Traveling is a privelidge and it
can be revoked

in the republic you can smoke marijuana, or have anal sex, or get a
blowjob
in the democracy these things are regulated or forbidden altogether

I live in the republic (see my webpage, I am civilly dead, JOIN ME and
become a citizen of the republic)
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3944

[Curt Howland]

Tom Potter wrote:
> The bottom line is that there are millions of laws
> and regulations, and they are selectively applied.

A perfect example of this is the recent flood
of "junk gun" legislation in California.

The law is a local regulation of business, stating
that a certain list of weapons are "unsafe" due
to their method and materials of manufacture.

The cookie-cutter text gives the police chief the
requirement of making up the list of unsafe guns
*after the fact* of passage of the regulation.
The police departments are specifically exempted,
since by the express wording of the regulation,
the $500 Glocks and S&W that the police carry are
"junk" and therefore unsafe.

The police become political enforcement arms,
since the chief is a political entity, and he gets
to say what is or is not good for everyone else.

> And they are applied by self-serving cops and
> bureaucrats who belong to a "brotherhood" in
> which it is okay to brutalize, steal from and
> oppress people outside the "brotherhood"
> ( People in the private sector ) but it is the
> kiss of death to rat on the criminals and
> incompetents within the "brotherhood.

Which is why police do not follow speeding laws,
and do not ticket each other. The simplest and
least directly damaging example of corruption.

They also get to carry arms regardless of the
ability for the local citizenry to own arms, both
on duty and off.

> Government must
> be greatly downsized, and privatized as much
> as possible. and the number of laws must be
> reduced by orders of magnitude, or else
> America will continue the downward spiral
> it has been in for over thirty years.
>
> Tom Potter http://pobox.com/~tdp

Agreed.

--

---
Curt Howland How...@Priss.com www.Priss.com
If it harms none, do as you will.

[Dave Cinege]

In <326bf62...@news.fuse.net>, th...@fuse.net ( Thor Thelasname) writes:
>I was arrested for possession (not a crime under common law)
>but I was held in jail and forced in viet armis to appear before the
>judge. I told the judge I was not there to enter a plea as I was on
>special appearance by force of arms.
>he entered a plea for me of not guilty
>I filed a writ of error coram nobis to get the judge to correct the
>record, making sure they took notice of my PUBLIC NOTICE OF CIVIL
>DEATH AND POSITIVE IDENTIFICATION OF Ronnie Lee Smith
>( see my page at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3944 )
>I am civilly dead I never pleaded and my notice of venue that I filed
>says that all pleading made for me or by me are a sham and done under
>duress.

But why didn't you take it up with your elected representatives?
You voted for the punish meant you got. You deserve it.
That's what FireHawk seems to think.....

[Dave Cinege]

In <54g54i$h...@news-central.tiac.net>, fire...@tiac.net writes:
>dci...@superlink.net (Dave Cinege) wrote:
>
>
>>I love this simple minded answer. Sure they tell me that I have walk around
>>with a zucchini up my ass 100 days out of the year, and I should be bound to
>>do it.
>
>No half wit your bound to take it up with them and if they don't
>listen take it to all the otehr people who have a zucchini up their
>butt and get them to change it.. But my GOD that would make you
>responsible for your own situation how insane of me to suggest.

You are a very sick deluded individual.

So a law passes that I must give all my money to the government, should I?
That the elected officials have sexual rights to my wife, must I obey it?
That I am not allowed free movement to certain parts of town? That I can not
use medicine when I am sick. That I may not travel in public with my
property?

These things have all been 'law' over time, and some still are. And it was
the law enforces like you that commited the crime when you enforced them.

>>I do take responsibility for my actions. I don't let anyone else decide my
>>actions for me, and I don't look towards any law neither for a reason to
>>do or not to do something.
>
>Well then I'm sure all the rest of the world breathes alot safer.. In
>this world we are all interconected that is why there are laws to
>prevent mass chaos and death

Government is the only thing that has ever created mass chaos and death.
It breaks your legs and then brings you a wheel chair saying "See you
couldn't get around without me"

> driving a car at speed is not unlike
>driving a guided bullet the laws are there to minimize damage if you
>choose to disobey them it's not just violation of law but endangering
>everyone in your immediate area and yourself. Indeed if you were
>responsible you'ld know that.

So where is the limit? 10MPH? 60? 100? You are too stupid to get it....
It has nothing to do with the speed limit. People never followed it to begin
with. The speed limit is a money making scheme, and has had no effect on
society except to lighten it's wallets.

>>>>YOU SICK BASTARD EGO POWER FREAK! Rot! Rot!
>>>
>>>I'm not the one telling you all how to live or what other peoples
>>>feelings ought to be. I'm not the one tell you how to think or trying
>>>to decide for you what is right or wrong.
>
>>Yes you are!!!! But you're took fucking sick in the head to understand it!!!
>
>Really you are telling ME that I should not belive in the law.

As you perceive the law, Yes.

> You are teeling me that my belief in law and order is wrong.

Yes.

>You are telling me I'm sick because I belive in my oaths?

You don't understand them.....

>While I enforce law I do not tell you not to think about it I in fact told
>you point blank if you don't like the law talk to your elected rep get the
>people to belive you.

This is where your sickness lies. You really do need help.

>Which of us is truely unreasonable Cigne?

You are to dumb to even comprehend my position. But if you were able to
understand my position you could never justify your own.

>Look in a mirror lately?

Have you? Does your threoy hold? When they take away your voting rights does
it hold? When you are locked in a cell? In pain? Dead?

>
>>Just caught you lying FireSlug. In you're last post you said you weren't a
>>cop. Oh well.....you never fooled me.
>
>Laugh cops are not the only law enforcers on the planet Cigne? Ever
>bother to read. Fire Rescue officer, Peace officer. I do have
>law-enforcement power. I actually HAVE been trained as a cop for
>means of cross training for duties I sometimes perform. I also didn't
>say I repremanded him and I didn't say I noted it. I also didn't say
>I escorted him I said a cruiser escorted him. The We is a generic WE
>for all "representitives of authority"

That's the point. You are as one.
Understand that when I say cop I mean all of those bound and payed as armed
mercenaries of the state. (Law Enforcers)

At a time a creature called the peace officer existed. My beef is not
with him.

>>>>Have all the cops have a line up in a row and take a bullet to the back

>>>>the head. That will get rid of 90% of the criminal right there.....
>>>
>>>If cops are criminals then who made them so...look to yourself before
>>>you accuse others.
>
>>Why don't you be responsible for you're own actions?
>>No one forced you to do what you do......And don't hand me that
>>self-rightous crap that you are here to help people.
>
>That is EXACTLY what I am there for to help people. When you get
>stuck in situations that are life threatening I and those who have
>sworn and honor our oaths are out there to get you out.

And when I refuse to let another decide my actions for me, by payment of
that other you hold a gun to my head and demand otherwise or death.
A great savior you are, you piece of shit!

>>>>Oh sure happens all the time...
>>>
>>>Saddly it does...like the guy above.. See moron I'm not a cop I'm a
>>>fire rescue officer, I have law enforcement power but those aren't my
>>>primary duties.
>
>>You're a cop......
>
>No Cigne I'm not a cop could I be yes, am I trained as one yes, did I
>join a police dept NO. Do I wear a police uniform NO, Do I respond to
>crime scenes If the call for medical support etc. Do you have any
>idea what your talking about no. But you go ahead you prove I'm a cop
>this ought to be funny.

I already did. You have stated yourself you are a law-enforcer. No matter if
your cover is that of EMS or whatever. If you play even the slightest role
in LE you are a cop. That is your choice! It is not required to be part of
EMS.

>>>>Well I guess you're fucking usless ; nothing a but a paid bully.
>>>
>>>Really and who do I bully?
>
>>Get the straight jacket folks, he just changed personalities again......
>
>How did I?? exactly where did I change personalities?

You don't get it!!!

[Bill Koehler]

> It the laws not the drugs that are the problem. When to take away a person's liberty you have broken faith with your creator. Read the
declaration of independence. The resulting chaos is your punishment.
Itinerant preacher CWC

[Michael Zarlenga]

Curt Howland (How...@Priss.com) wrote:
: The police departments are specifically exempted,

: since by the express wording of the regulation,
: the $500 Glocks and S&W that the police carry are
: "junk" and therefore unsafe.

Both the departments *and* the cops are exempted, how else could
the jerks in the White House and the left side of the aisle in Con-
gress get the prostitutes, I mean the Chiefs of Police and the FOP
to endorse crap legislation like "gun free school zones" and man-
datory storage requirements for handguns?

Any cop who stood with Clinton on those issues, knowing full well
that if he or she DIDN'T have his special LWO exemption he wouldn't
be there, is a hypocrite and should be ashamed of him or herself.

It never ceases to amaze me just how many cops (especially in the
higher ranks) are absolute sell-outs when it comes to their neigh-
bors' self-defense and rights.

--
-- Mike Zarlenga
finger zarl...@conan.ids.net for PGP public key
Harry Browne (Libertarian) for President in 1996

[Thor Thelasname]

On 22 Oct 1996 22:12:18 GMT, dci...@superlink.net (Dave Cinege)
wrote:

>In <326bf62...@news.fuse.net>, th...@fuse.net ( Thor Thelasname) writes:
>>I was arrested for possession (not a crime under common law)
>>but I was held in jail and forced in viet armis to appear before the
>>judge. I told the judge I was not there to enter a plea as I was on
>>special appearance by force of arms.
>>he entered a plea for me of not guilty
>>I filed a writ of error coram nobis to get the judge to correct the
>>record, making sure they took notice of my PUBLIC NOTICE OF CIVIL
>>DEATH AND POSITIVE IDENTIFICATION OF Ronnie Lee Smith
>>( see my page at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3944 )
>>I am civilly dead I never pleaded and my notice of venue that I filed
>>says that all pleading made for me or by me are a sham and done under
>>duress.
>
>But why didn't you take it up with your elected representatives?
>You voted for the punish meant you got. You deserve it.
>That's what FireHawk seems to think.....
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

I do not vot in the Democratic elections
If i made myself a part of the corrupt system
I would be obligated to follow corrupt rules
I live in a republic
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3944
I am governed by the constitution

[Jim Green]

In <326D32...@Priss.com> Curt Howland <How...@Priss.com> writes:
>
>Tom Potter wrote:
>> The bottom line is that there are millions of laws
>> and regulations, and they are selectively applied.
>
>A perfect example of this is the recent flood
>of "junk gun" legislation in California.
>
>The law is a local regulation of business, stating
>that a certain list of weapons are "unsafe" due
>to their method and materials of manufacture.
>
>The cookie-cutter text gives the police chief the
>requirement of making up the list of unsafe guns
>*after the fact* of passage of the regulation.

>The police departments are specifically exempted,
>since by the express wording of the regulation,
>the $500 Glocks and S&W that the police carry are
>"junk" and therefore unsafe.
>

A while back it was called "The Divine Right of Kings" and the Title of
Nobility"

[Jim Green]

Three cases in which I was directly involved:

November, 1992 on 3rd and Hope Street, Los Angeles, California.
A motorcycle traffic cop is going up and down Hope street and hiding in
parking garages citing professional people for jaywalking and walking
against the light in front of 333 South Hope. At the same time parking
enforcement is issuing 65.00 tickets for expired meters. This goes on
all day. I come out of 333 South Hope after working in a city
attorney's office and find that everyone who parked on the west side of
Hope Street, in the 300 block, has had there passenger window smashed
out. I have had a communications tool box stolen worth about $2800.00.
The cop is sitting directly in front of my van issuing a citation. I
call him over and ask how this could have happened right in front of
him. Brushing my question aside, he explains that he has written alot
of citations today and has to go back to the station early and doesn't
have time to take a report. I call in the report and as I start, the
person on the other end of the phone describes exactly what happened.
He explains that this has been going on twice a week for three months.

June 1993, Avalon Blvd. between C and D streets. Hookers and Hypes
stand on the corner of D and Avalon and ply their trades while the all
the cars of the law firm on the corner of C and Avalon are ransacked
for the fifth time in two weeks. Our firm and the law firm on the
corner have a meeting with our councilwoman. The next week, two of my
customers are issued parking citations, four secrataries from the law
firm on the corner are issued jaywalking citations (in order to cross
at a crosswalk they would have to go to D street where the hookers and
hypes hang out), their cars are broken into again and the hookers can
be seen giving money to a police officer. The law firm, now, and
for the last four years, payed a private uniformed guard to protect
their parking lot.

In November of 1993, A man and woman entered my business and he began
battering her in my lobby. When I intervened, he pulled a knife. I
punched him, knocking his teeth out and severing his upper lip. He left
but was soon back brandishing his knife. Two of my employees were on
the phone with 911 screaming that I was being killed. I retrieved a
gun, which caused the attacker to leave.(What would have happened if I
hadn't had the gun, I shudder to think.) 45 minutes later we hailed two
traffic cops off the street. They hadn't heard of the incident. An
employee spotted my assailant several blocks away. The officers made a
radio call and responded. Within three minutes, four cars were on
scene. When investigators came, my wife was angry. In reply to the slow
response time, the junior officer told us to remember this incident
when it came time for funding. I pointed out that they seemed to have
enough people to protect each other (reminding her of the 3 minute
response time when her fellow officers called), But they just hadn't
bothered to protect us. The guy got 6 months for ADW.

Cops, in my view, are more trouble than help.

[Tom Potter]

In <54k13i$b...@paperboy.ids.net> zarl...@conan.ids.net (Michael
Zarlenga) writes:
>
>Curt Howland (How...@Priss.com) wrote:
>: The police departments are specifically exempted,

>: since by the express wording of the regulation,
>: the $500 Glocks and S&W that the police carry are
>: "junk" and therefore unsafe.
>

>Both the departments *and* the cops are exempted, how else could
>the jerks in the White House and the left side of the aisle in Con-
>gress get the prostitutes, I mean the Chiefs of Police and the FOP
>to endorse crap legislation like "gun free school zones" and man-
>datory storage requirements for handguns?
>
>Any cop who stood with Clinton on those issues, knowing full well
>that if he or she DIDN'T have his special LWO exemption he wouldn't
>be there, is a hypocrite and should be ashamed of him or herself.
>
>It never ceases to amaze me just how many cops (especially in the
>higher ranks) are absolute sell-outs when it comes to their neigh-
>bors' self-defense and rights.

This is the way tyrannies grow.
The police become a special class
that are exempt from criminal acts
and have power over the citizens
they supposedly work for.

Wouldn't you agree with laws and
regulations that made you a special
class, exempt from many laws and with
with powers above those of ordinary citizens?

It is natural for self-serving people
to sell out their altrustic values when
they have a lot to gain. This is why
ordinary citizens need freedom of the
press and the right to bear arms.

Tom Potter http://pobox.com/~tdp

[Dave Cinege]

So you are saying it is the will of GOD that police are to be externally
punished? I'll buy that! : >

[Tom Potter]

In <54lnpf$3...@sjx-ixn7.ix.netcom.com> jdg...@ix.netcom.com(Jim Green)
writes:

As an ex-landlord, and employer, and as a person
who has talked to hundreds of inner city merchants,
I agree 100%.

The law enforcement system is a greater threat
to the employers, landlords, merchants, and offended people
than it is to the criminals and abusive elements of
society. If there were far fewer cops, and the
employers, store owners, landlords, and offended
people were able to strike back, without being hassled
by the system, there would be much less crime and
society would be far more civil.

As an employer, I couldn't apply pressure on the
bad guys as they would run to the government
and make all kinds of claims. As a landlord,
I couldn't apply pressure on the bad tenants,
and my good tenants had to put up with thier
crap. Store owners in high crime areas have thier
hands tied by the civil and criminal systems,
and they have to hide behind bulletproof glass.

In a good society, and in a good organization,
control and power is assigned to the lowest
affected point. In a corrupt system, those high
up the heirarchy acumulate more and more power
and use it to achieve their own personal
agenda's, usually security, goodies, and freedom from
responsibility for errors, omissions and criminal acts.

Tom Potter http://pobox.com/~tdp

[Sam A. Kersh]

jdg...@ix.netcom.com(Jim Green) wrote:

>Three cases in which I was directly involved:
>
>November, 1992 on 3rd and Hope Street, Los Angeles, California.

>>.................deletions for brevity...............

>Cops, in my view, are more trouble than help.

You have to remember, most of these cops were the product of Police
Chief Darrell Gates... You remember, the one who let the rioters
destroy the Black and Asian sections of LA by pulling his "troops" out
but stood firm when they got near Rodeo Drive....

And Chief Wilie Williams still can't pass the exam..

Sam A. Kersh
sa...@i-link.net
NRA Life Member
TSRA
===============================================================
If you're too busy to hunt, you're too busy.

Note: in off-seasons, substitute "fishing" for "hunting"

[Lee Taylor]

Uh, Sam? I was there at the time. Gates reduced police presence at the
order of the commie faggot LA had as mayor at the time. But of course
he had to protect his big money supporters.

--
Lee Taylor http://www.tco.net/~lee/index.html

Independent Website Management--
--The lowest rates on the WWW.

The Nor Cal Eagle Newspaper--

--A pub. Of, By, and For The People.
Blue Ice--
--Get the files the government has on you.

[Christopher Morton]

On Fri, 25 Oct 1996 17:53:33 GMT, sa...@i-link.net (Sam A. Kersh)
wrote:

>jdg...@ix.netcom.com(Jim Green) wrote:
>
>>Three cases in which I was directly involved:
>>
>>November, 1992 on 3rd and Hope Street, Los Angeles, California.
>>>.................deletions for brevity...............
>>Cops, in my view, are more trouble than help.
>
>You have to remember, most of these cops were the product of Police
>Chief Darrell Gates... You remember, the one who let the rioters
>destroy the Black and Asian sections of LA by pulling his "troops" out
>but stood firm when they got near Rodeo Drive....

And that wasn't the first time he'd done the same thing. He'd done
the same thing as a lower level commander during the Watts riots, I
believe.

***
Today on Oprah: Shawn Smith, a Black woman trapped in
a White supremacist's body.

[Kevin Murphy]

On 17 Oct 1996 00:25:17 GMT, doper <do...@inner.city.net> wrote:

>
>
>I get mad at anyone who is unwilling to think for
>himself. We don't want cops who were "just following
>orders." We don't want robocops, we want leo's who
>grew up where they work and want to protect and be a
>part of their communities. We don't want military police.
>

Well said for one who indulges in stereotypes of the police.

>Police in the uS are not respected because all we see
>them do is hassle people over things like smoking
>marijuana, driving too fast, paying our automobile

>registration, ad nauseum, when there are obviously more

>important things for them to do. And the punishments for
>victimless drug crimes are so cruel and disproportionate
>that no decent human being could be a part of that system.
>

>We don't see you as our protectors, we see you as the
>muscle behind a government that violates our common law
>rights of property and passage, tax collectors, bounty
>hunters who work on commission.
>

Is it really my fault that you wish to remain ignorant of what the
police really do? You say that you think for yourself. Why don't you
research what the police do?
>
>

[Dave Cinege]

Jeez, while I was getting beat in the street, I'd say I got a first hand
demonstration of typical police functions.

Ya know the part I really liked? When one of them tried to break my kneck.
Now that made me feel real safe and secure. Of course one of the older cops
had to come and yell at him to stop....jeez them old cops get too soft.

[Sam A. Kersh]

Lee Taylor <l...@tco.net> wrote:

>Sam A. Kersh wrote:
>>
>> jdg...@ix.netcom.com(Jim Green) wrote:
>>
>> >Three cases in which I was directly involved:
>> >
>> >November, 1992 on 3rd and Hope Street, Los Angeles, California.
>> >>.................deletions for brevity...............
>> >Cops, in my view, are more trouble than help.
>>
>> You have to remember, most of these cops were the product of Police
>> Chief Darrell Gates... You remember, the one who let the rioters
>> destroy the Black and Asian sections of LA by pulling his "troops" out
>> but stood firm when they got near Rodeo Drive....
>>

>> And Chief Wilie Williams still can't pass the exam..
>>
>> Sam A. Kersh
>> sa...@i-link.net
>> NRA Life Member
>> TSRA
>> ===============================================================
>> If you're too busy to hunt, you're too busy.
>>
>> Note: in off-seasons, substitute "fishing" for "hunting"
>
>Uh, Sam? I was there at the time. Gates reduced police presence at the
>order of the commie faggot LA had as mayor at the time. But of course
>he had to protect his big money supporters.
>

Lee,

You may have been there (no, I'm not saying you weren't) but Gates was
too busy kissing the politicians butts at a party to do more than tell
order his troops out. Whether Gates did it on his own or at the request
of the mayor is immaterial. He failed to protect the citizens in the
poorer districts while making sure the hi-rollers were covered.

[Lee Taylor]

True. No dispute there.

--
Lee Taylor http://www.tco.net/~lee/index.html

Independent Website Management--
--The lowest rates on the WWW.
The Nor Cal Eagle Newspaper--

--A publication Of, By, and For The People.
Blue Ice--
--Get the files that the government has on YOU.

[Giovanni 8]

> In article <5556v3$g...@news-central.tiac.net>,
> fire...@tiac.net wrote:
>> xep...@oryx.com (Greg T Schorr) wrote:
>> ...How is asking for an end to throwing people in jail for using
>> currently illegal drugs tantamount to promoting "drug users driving
>> their cars in your direction on highways?"

> Because as is the case with alcohol when something is legal people
> become less careful with it. As I have stated a million time and you
> know it Gregg average driving age across the US is 16 highest
> percentage of alcohol abusers between 16-27 highest persentage of DWI
> induced MVA 21-25 in fact the number of MVAs in the 21-25 is twice
> that of 20 and below on the national average and almost as high as
> three times in some states. The reason simple. Before alcohol is
> legal you don't want to be seen drunk so you stay at the place you
> drink or have friends watch out for you.

> At 21 it no longer matters and the various cycles of machoism and
> denial get involved and whala instant crisis. There is NO evidence
> to belive differently of any of the currently illegal drugs. So
> Alleycat definatly does have reason to belive an end to the banned
> status can directly mean and increase of imparied drivers.

Thank you for pointing out that some people learn responsible use of
ethanol and other drugs best through experience. Please note that
all crime peaks during the same age range with which you are concerned
here.

Please, define why you believe being "impaired" should be criminal.
Perhaps you'd like to explain it to some of my friends who have
cerebral palsy or poliomyelitis.

Until and unless a person initiates force or fraud against another
he should be "let alone and free from government intrusion".
That you feel that he may doesn't suffice.

>>> Thanks to people like you, society could be quite a scarey place in
>>> the future.

>> I can't help but think that thanks to people like you society is
>> quite a scary place now. How many innocent bystanders have been
>> killed as a result of turf wars over the lucrative illegal drug
>> market? The rights of people to be free from suspicion without
>> reasonable cause, the rights of people to be free from search
>> and seizure of assets without reasonable cause and due process are
>> all being reduced to meaningless phrases because of the WO(s)D.
>> We have the National Guard patrolling housing projects, we invade
>> entire countries, killing hundreds, if not thousands, of innocent
>> citizens to arrest a single person accused of dealing in illegal
>> drugs.
>
> Of course that is the WOD for can't possibly be the fault of those who
> would rather pleasure themselves and have what they want then give ANY
> reguard to anyone else around them. Quite frankly it's this simple.
> The people breaking the law and causeing the desire for the product
> are the ones at fault not the law makers. This is not a case of
> freedoms. You are not being persecuted unfaily for something you
> can't change. They choose to put others at risk for themselves and
> the law is doing what it belives <rightly or wrongly> it has to do to
> protect them. The guilty party for the problem however is not those
> who support the WOD but those who support the use of illegal drugs.

Could you make that a little more coherent. Perhaps if you'd calm
down and stick with truth rather than speculation you'll be able to
compose some sentences that make sense.

> ...Yes actually it is..many people are law abiding and will not
> touch the stuff simply because it IS illegal...

No people are law abiding in the USA today. It's impossible, as
was pointed out to me by some police I knew in the Cincinnati area
a couple decades ago. (The fathers of one of the guys in my Scout
troop and another guy in my classes were chiefs of their police
departments. Another was a speaker we invited to a youth
organization of which I was president.)

"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government
has is the power to crack down on criminals. When there aren't
enough criminals, one MAKES them. One declares so many things
to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without
breaking laws... Create a nation of law-breakers, and then you
cash in on the guilt." --- Ayn Rand 1957 _Atlas Shrugged_

If you'd expend a little less effort on exaggerating, look at the
research, & stick to the truth, then the kids might believe you a
bit more. They wouldn't need to experiment for themselves. There
wouldn't be a need to react to over-bearing force by whatever means
of defiance are at hand. Quite a few wouldn't get a kick from it
any more.

There are legitimate purposes and dosages for many of the currently
illegal chemicals. Blanket bans prevent these valid uses & dosages,
thus harming people.

As an aside, while researching price indices, I ran across the 1902
survey that the US gov't conducted. At that pre-Harrison Act time,
opium cost $4/pound, and few were the gang battles over territory.
Similarly, the murder rate took a dive as soon as prohibition of
ethanol ended.
jgo

[Giovanni 8]

> In article <55593o$q...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
> t...@ix.netcom.com(Tom Potter) wrote:
>> In <553s4p$b...@news.cp10.es.xerox.com>
>> dho...@es.xerox.com (Dan Howell) wrote:
>>> thesy...@mindspring.com (The Syclone) wrote:
>>> Why not ask the downtown business owners how badly it affects their
>>> businesses when people park all day at metered spots; and their
>>> customers can't come in because they have no place to park?
>>> One of the purposes of parking meters is to insure businesses
>>> that their customers have a place to park, by rotating who is
>>> parking there...

>> On the other hand, you might ask the business owners how many
>> customers they LOSE because many people don't want to deal with
>> the hassle of finding change for the parking meters in a place
>> with reputation of ruthless parking enforcement officers.

>> I personally detest the things, and avoid parking my car at them
>> whenever possible.

>> Parking time limits can be enforced just fine without the use of
>> parking meters, by the way.

> Although I can give many examples from personal experience of the
> governments abuse of parking meters to steal money. (Give expensive
> tickets, rather than a little slack.) I'll mention one experience.
> ...I was back to my car within five minutes and already had a
> ticket.
>
> As it turns out, you weren't allowed to use metered parking after
> 10:00 A.M. and exactly at 10:00, the cop moved quickly down the
> street giving out as many tickets as he could. I got my ticket at
> 10:02, although my watch said 9:58.
>
> Needless to say, I left Toronto immediately for Niagra Falls, and
> have never been back to Toronto, nor do I ever intend to go back.

The problem is that the business owners failed to pay for the design
and construction of private parking for their customers. It's none
of the government's business, either to supply the parking or to act
at the behest of the businesses as their own private enforcers.

There's a town near Cincinnati that had been thriving, until they
installed parking meters. People who didn't live within a few
blocks just started driving to the next town, or up to 9 miles to
the mall. It still hasn't recovered completely. There are probably
many other such towns.
jgo

[Giovanni 8]

> In article <55ovv1$f...@earth.superlink.net>,
> dci...@psychosis.com (Dave Cinege) wrote:
>> In <3280e0aa...@news.concentric.net>,
>> Kevi...@cris.com (Kevin Murphy) writes:
>>> On 5 Nov 1996 14:16:50 GMT,
>>> dci...@superlink.net (Dave Cinege) wrote:
>>>> That's what "highway enforcement" is. Coercive tax collection.

>> No, it ensures safety of the general public. The money collected is
>> called a fine.

Yes, you're right, it is just more newspeak. It's not "fine" at all.
It's called extortion, an abomination.

>> You don't pay this "tax" unless you violate the law.

Make up your mind. Is it to ensure safety or is it merely
"law enforcement"? If the former, then there's no excuse to charge
anyone if there's been no injury or damage. If the latter, then
you're just engaging in extortion.

>> See? So simple. So, why don't you strike a blow against the
>>"man" and refuse to pay his "tax" by practicing safe driving?

Going along with extortion is immoral.

> So laws ensure the safety of society?
>
> Well the police selectively enforce the law, they know best?
>
> In some states that law is different, are those states less safe?
>
> Who decides what makes that speed safe?
>
> You are so far gone, I won't waste my time going on. All I know
> is by this line: "No, it ensures safety of the general public."
> I know you are a pig.
>
> No human with an IQ above 75 believes that. You don't even believe it.
> But you need to justify your job.

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dave 'Kill a Cop' Cinege (aka Psychopath #3) --- Super Genius at Large

> Wanna see Bill Gate's idea of Plug & Play? Bend over....
> http://www.psychosis.com/
>
> Libertarian Party 1-800-682-1776 http://www.lp.org/

jgo