How useful are guns as a self defence wepon.....
Trevor Wilson
edi...@netpath.net
wrote:
> http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffee-...
> Not very, it seems.
Bet the shooter was known to all four - and thus they felt comfortable
enough when he walked up to not get suspicious. Cops are naturally on
guard otherwise. Don't be surprised if he's a fellow cop in that
area.
This is highly unindicative of outcome of typical crime situations in
retail settings. Documented RECENT past-year robberies in next county
ended with merchant killing robber.
http://www.redstate.com/erick/2009/08/04/where-is-your-townhall/ is
the all-states, continually-updated calendar of "town halls."
http://www.Internet-Gun-Show.com - your source for hard-to-find stuff!
Jim Alder
news:7ngbrnF...@mid.individual.net:
> ...., against a surprise attack?
>
> http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffee-shop-
ambush-20091130-jz3t.html?autostart=1
>
> Not very, it seems.
No, but then nothing does.
I always get a kick out of gun phobics like you who can find an isolated
incident where a gun didn't help and say that says guns are unnecessary, but
gun control NEVER works and you still push for it.
--
My girlfriend asked me "Have you been having
sex behind my back?"
I said "Who in the hell did you think it was?"
Trevor Wilson
> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in
> news:7ngbrnF...@mid.individual.net:
>
>> ...., against a surprise attack?
>>
>> http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffee-shop-
> ambush-20091130-jz3t.html?autostart=1
>>
>> Not very, it seems.
>
> No, but then nothing does.
**Exactly. Guns, as a self defence item, are pretty much useless. A bullet
proof vest would be more useful, but you don't see the NRA bleating about
that. I wonder why?
>
> I always get a kick out of gun phobics
**"gun phobics"? What do you mean? I'm not afraid of guns. They do not
concern me one bit. What does concern me is the attempts by idiots to weaken
our strong gun control laws.
like you who can find an
> isolated incident where a gun didn't help and say that says guns are
> unnecessary, but gun control NEVER works and you still push for it.
**I can find a few more, if you wish. Here in Australia, we've had several
(armed) police officers who were shot to death by armed assailants. We've
also seen the murder of a couple of dozen (presumably armed) criminals by
other criminals in surprise attacks.
OTOH, gun control laws have coincided with a massive fall in the incidence
of mass murder here in Australia. Sensible gun control laws appear to work
and work very well.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Jim Alder
> Jim Alder wrote:
>> "Trevor Wilson" wrote:
>>
>>> ...., against a surprise attack?
>>>
>>> http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffee-shop-
>>> ambush-20091130-jz3t.html?autostart=1
>>>
>>> Not very, it seems.
>>
>> No, but then nothing does.
>
> **Exactly. Guns, as a self defence item, are pretty much useless.
ROTFLMAO!!! You really should have read the rest of my reply before saying
something so stupid.
> A bullet proof vest would be more useful, but you don't see
> the NRA bleating about that. I wonder why?
Because they aren't the National Bulletproof Vest Association. And what
would they 'bleat' about? Cops already wear vests. They try not to talk too
much about it because then the bad guys tend to shoot for the head.
>> I always get a kick out of gun phobics
>
> **"gun phobics"? What do you mean? I'm not afraid of guns.
Sure ya are. That's why you're lying about them now and misrepresenting
this tragedy as a typical "self-defense" situation.
> They do not concern me one bit.
Yeah, right, Trevor. Sure they don't.
> What does concern me is the attempts by idiots to weaken
> our strong gun control laws.
Guns don't concern you one bit, but you're worried the laws might be
changed that control them?
I'm speechless. Good thing I'm typing! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
>> like you who can find an
>> isolated incident where a gun didn't help and say that says guns are
>> unnecessary, but gun control NEVER works and you still push for it.
>
> **I can find a few more, if you wish.
I can find you a thousand where they came in handy defending innocent
lives.
> Here in Australia, we've had several
> (armed) police officers who were shot to death by armed assailants. We've
> also seen the murder of a couple of dozen (presumably armed) criminals by
> other criminals in surprise attacks.
"Presumably" armed? Why would you presume that? Guns are heavily
controlled "down under" so criminals shouldn't have them, should they? Are you
saying gun control only disarms those people who obey laws?
> OTOH, gun control laws have coincided with a massive fall in the incidence
> of mass murder here in Australia.
A "massive" fall in mass murder? What kind of hellhole did that place turn
into? How many mass murders were there before and after you lost your rights?
Even in the Thunderdome known as the United States, we don't have a 'massive'
number of mass murders and never have.
> Sensible gun control laws appear to work
> and work very well.
Ahhh, "sensible gun control laws" - the song of the gun phobe. Every one
of you has your own definition of that term, making it meaningless.
If you're interested, and I doubt it, I just heard that at least one of
the four cops in question did get some shots off at the cowardly asshole who
ambushed them. He may be wounded.
--
My girlfriend asked me "Have you been having
sex behind my back?"
I said "Yeah! Who in the hell did you think it was?"
tankfixer
tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au says...
>
> Jim Alder wrote:
> > "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in
> > news:7ngbrnF...@mid.individual.net:
> >
> >> ...., against a surprise attack?
> >>
> >> http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffee-shop-
> > ambush-20091130-jz3t.html?autostart=1
> >>
> >> Not very, it seems.
> >
> > No, but then nothing does.
>
> **Exactly. Guns, as a self defence item, are pretty much useless. A bullet
> proof vest would be more useful, but you don't see the NRA bleating about
> that. I wonder why?
The four officers were wearing vests..
>
> >
> > I always get a kick out of gun phobics
>
> **"gun phobics"? What do you mean? I'm not afraid of guns. They do not
> concern me one bit. What does concern me is the attempts by idiots to weaken
> our strong gun control laws.
>
> like you who can find an
> > isolated incident where a gun didn't help and say that says guns are
> > unnecessary, but gun control NEVER works and you still push for it.
>
> **I can find a few more, if you wish. Here in Australia, we've had several
> (armed) police officers who were shot to death by armed assailants. We've
> also seen the murder of a couple of dozen (presumably armed) criminals by
> other criminals in surprise attacks.
>
> OTOH, gun control laws have coincided with a massive fall in the incidence
> of mass murder here in Australia. Sensible gun control laws appear to work
> and work very well.
Fascism always appears that way to the sheep
kent...@bellsouth.net
news:7ngbrnF...@mid.individual.net...
> ...., against a surprise attack?
>
> http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffee-shop-ambush-20091130-jz3t.html?autostart=1
>
> Not very, it seems.
>
>
following link relates to civilian self-defense, not cops, but it contains
several thousand incidents, not one.
http://www.thearmedcitizen.com/
--
Kent Finnell
From the Music City, USA
Klaus Schadenfreude
<tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>Jim Alder wrote:
>> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in
>> news:7ngbrnF...@mid.individual.net:
>>
>>> ...., against a surprise attack?
>>>
>>> http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffee-shop-
>> ambush-20091130-jz3t.html?autostart=1
>>>
>>> Not very, it seems.
>>
>> No, but then nothing does.
>
>**Exactly. Guns, as a self defence item, are pretty much useless. A bullet
>proof vest would be more useful, but you don't see the NRA bleating about
>that. I wonder why?
They were wearing vests, dumb ass. Didn't help. I guess they're
useless too.
The officers were in uniform, including bulletproof vests, and were
working on their laptop computers as they prepared to start their day
shifts, Troyer said.
http://www.canada.com/Manhunt+killer+four+police+officers/2285225/story.html
Are you always this fucking stupid, or just when you're posting?
Jim Yanik
news:Xns9CD2E6B5B4C6B...@216.196.97.142:
> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>> OTOH, gun control laws have coincided with a massive fall in the
>> incidence of mass murder here in Australia.
>
> A "massive" fall in mass murder? What kind of hellhole did that
> place turn
> into? How many mass murders were there before and after you lost your
> rights? Even in the Thunderdome known as the United States, we don't
> have a 'massive' number of mass murders and never have.
Note how Trev narrowly cherrypicks "mass murders" for his criteria.
He doesn't talk about "murders",or total crime,but a very narrow subset.
Fact is,Australia could STILL have more mass murders,there's nothing to
stop them from happening.
Guns are STILL present and available in Australia.
It's just that no one has chosen to do another mass murder Down Under.
Yet.
>
>> Sensible gun control laws appear to work
>> and work very well.
"sensible"?
to disarm lawful,peaceable citizens while leaving criminals armed?
(And having the advantages of size,strength and numbers.)
HARDLY sensible.
>
> Ahhh, "sensible gun control laws" - the song of the gun phobe.
> Every one
> of you has your own definition of that term, making it meaningless.
>
> If you're interested, and I doubt it, I just heard that at least
> one of
> the four cops in question did get some shots off at the cowardly
> asshole who ambushed them. He may be wounded.
>
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
Jim Alder
> Jim Alder <jima...@ssnet.com> wrote:
>
>> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>>> OTOH, gun control laws have coincided with a massive fall in the
>>> incidence of mass murder here in Australia.
>>
>> A "massive" fall in mass murder? What kind of hellhole did that place turn
>> into? How many mass murders were there before and after you lost your
>> rights? Even in the Thunderdome known as the United States, we don't
>> have a 'massive' number of mass murders and never have.
>
> Note how Trev narrowly cherrypicks "mass murders" for his criteria.
I noted.
> He doesn't talk about "murders",or total crime,but a very narrow subset.
> Fact is,Australia could STILL have more mass murders,there's nothing to
> stop them from happening.
> Guns are STILL present and available in Australia.
There is also gasoline, airplanes and countless other means of mass
murder.
> It's just that no one has chosen to do another mass murder Down Under.
> Yet.
Knock on wood.
>>> Sensible gun control laws appear to work and work very well.
>
> "sensible"?
> to disarm lawful,peaceable citizens while leaving criminals armed?
> (And having the advantages of size,strength and numbers.)
> HARDLY sensible.
>>
>> Ahhh, "sensible gun control laws" - the song of the gun phobe. Every one
>> of you has your own definition of that term, making it meaningless.
>>
>> If you're interested, and I doubt it, I just heard that at least one of
>> the four cops in question did get some shots off at the cowardly
>> asshole who ambushed them. He may be wounded.
--
My girlfriend asked me "Have you been having
sex behind my back?"
I said "Who in the hell did you think it was?"
RD (The Sandman)
> ...., against a surprise attack?
>
> http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffee-sh
> op-ambush-20091130-jz3t.html?autostart=1
>
> Not very, it seems.
>
>
Actually, it shows that they were not completely aware of their situation
and were in Condition White or as I refer to it Condition Brown. Would
it have been different with CCW holders, probably not. A gun is not
cure-all. What it does do is give me an option you don't have, Trevor.
No more ..... no less.
--
Sleep well tonight,
RD (The Sandman)
Let's see if I have this healthcare thingy right. Congress is to pass
a plan written by a committee whose head has said he doesn't understand
it, passed by a Congress that hasn't read it, signed by a president who
hasn't read it, with funding administered by a Treasury chief who didn't
pay his taxes because he didn't understand TurboTax, overseen by an obese
Surgeon General and financed by a country that's nearly broke.
What could possibly go wrong?
RD (The Sandman)
> Jim Alder wrote:
>> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in
>> news:7ngbrnF...@mid.individual.net:
>>
>>> ...., against a surprise attack?
>>>
>>> http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffee-
>>> shop-
>> ambush-20091130-jz3t.html?autostart=1
>>>
>>> Not very, it seems.
>>
>> No, but then nothing does.
>
> **Exactly. Guns, as a self defence item, are pretty much useless. A
> bullet proof vest would be more useful, but you don't see the NRA
> bleating about that. I wonder why?
Duhhhh, they are a gun group, not a vest group? ;) I don't see you
ranting for vests either, but I do see you jumping on any little thing
you think you can a get an inch out of.
>> I always get a kick out of gun phobics
>
> **"gun phobics"? What do you mean? I'm not afraid of guns. They do not
> concern me one bit. What does concern me is the attempts by idiots to
> weaken our strong gun control laws.
You are afraid of people with guns, Trevor. Many people are....you
should simply man up and admit your fears. They seem to be obvious to
everyone but you.
> like you who can find an
>> isolated incident where a gun didn't help and say that says guns are
>> unnecessary, but gun control NEVER works and you still push for it.
>
> **I can find a few more, if you wish. Here in Australia, we've had
> several (armed) police officers who were shot to death by armed
> assailants.
No, they couldn't have been......gun are almost illegal in OZ. How in
the world did those slip through?
We've also seen the murder of a couple of dozen
> (presumably armed) criminals by other criminals in surprise attacks.
Ahhh, then your gun control is not as effective as you claim it to be,
is it. Amazing......I didn't think you would not only admit but provide
examples to prove it.
> OTOH, gun control laws have coincided with a massive fall in the
> incidence of mass murder here in Australia. Sensible gun control laws
> appear to work and work very well.
Ohhhhh, here we scramble to get back on message.......
Bill Smith
<tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>...., against a surprise attack?
>
>http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffee-shop-ambush-20091130-jz3t.html?autostart=1
>
>Not very, it seems.
So? What's your point?
Guns aren't a panacea and anyone who suggests that they are is a fool,
IMO. They are useful for self-defense when properly used in the right
situation.
Bill Smith
Trevor Wilson
"Jim Alder" <jima...@ssnet.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9CD2E6B5B4C6B...@216.196.97.142...
> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>> Jim Alder wrote:
>>> "Trevor Wilson" wrote:
>>>
>>>> ...., against a surprise attack?
>>>>
>>>> http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffee-shop-
>>>> ambush-20091130-jz3t.html?autostart=1
>>>>
>>>> Not very, it seems.
>>>
>>> No, but then nothing does.
>>
>> **Exactly. Guns, as a self defence item, are pretty much useless.
>
> ROTFLMAO!!! You really should have read the rest of my reply before
> saying
> something so stupid.
**Just stating fact.
>
>> A bullet proof vest would be more useful, but you don't see
>> the NRA bleating about that. I wonder why?
>
> Because they aren't the National Bulletproof Vest Association. And what
> would they 'bleat' about?
**The NRA has bleated about guns being used as self defence equipment yet
they ignore bullet proof vests.
Cops already wear vests. They try not to talk too
> much about it because then the bad guys tend to shoot for the head.
>
>>> I always get a kick out of gun phobics
>>
>> **"gun phobics"? What do you mean? I'm not afraid of guns.
>
> Sure ya are.
**Prove it.
That's why you're lying about them now and misrepresenting
> this tragedy as a typical "self-defense" situation.
**Relating a news item is not lying. In your twisted imagination, perhaps,
but not here in the real world.
>
>> They do not concern me one bit.
>
> Yeah, right, Trevor. Sure they don't.
**Good. I'm pleased we have established that.
>
>> What does concern me is the attempts by idiots to weaken
>> our strong gun control laws.
>
> Guns don't concern you one bit, but you're worried the laws might be
> changed that control them?
**Of course. Allowing idiots, drunks, drug addicts and criminals easy access
to guns is bad public policy. It is a bad policy that the US has embraced
for decades.
>
> I'm speechless. Good thing I'm typing! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
>
>>> like you who can find an
>>> isolated incident where a gun didn't help and say that says guns are
>>> unnecessary, but gun control NEVER works and you still push for it.
>>
>> **I can find a few more, if you wish.
>
> I can find you a thousand where they came in handy defending innocent
> lives.
**Good. I'll make it easy for you. List 10 (TEN) DGUs which have occured on
any one day in the US. Those DGUs need to be verified by reputable news
reports and/or police or FBI reports.
Alternatively, how difficult do you think it would be for me to locate 10
reports of homicide, via gunshot on any one day in the US (Particularly,
given the FBI reports an average of 27 per day)?
>
>> Here in Australia, we've had several
>> (armed) police officers who were shot to death by armed assailants. We've
>> also seen the murder of a couple of dozen (presumably armed) criminals by
>> other criminals in surprise attacks.
>
> "Presumably" armed?
**Yep. The police do not release that information.
> Why would you presume that?
**Because each of the men in question was a wealthy, influential criminal.
Guns are heavily
> controlled "down under" so criminals shouldn't have them, should they?
**Of course they shouldn't, but, since they were wealthy, they could afford
black market (hand) guns.
Are you
> saying gun control only disarms those people who obey laws?
**Nope. People who obey the law in Australia can own and use guns (including
handguns). It is a common and oft-cited myth that Australians cannot own and
use guns. What the gun control laws have done is this:
* Elevated the price of black market (hand)guns to a level where only
wealthy criminals can afford them. The average street junkie cannot easily
obtain one.
* Reduced the likelihood that guns will be stolen from legal gun owners by
around 60%.
* Almost eliminated the possibility of 'straw purchases' of guns.
>
>> OTOH, gun control laws have coincided with a massive fall in the
>> incidence
>> of mass murder here in Australia.
>
> A "massive" fall in mass murder?
**Actually, I should have said: Mass murder committed via the use of guns.
What kind of hellhole did that place turn
> into?
**We had far too many mass murders, via gunshot.
> How many mass murders were there before and after you lost your rights?
**We lost nothing. If you mean:
"How many mass murders, via gunshot, were there before the 1996 gun control
laws were introduced?"
Then the answer is: 11, in the 10 years prior to 1997.
> Even in the Thunderdome known as the United States, we don't have a
> 'massive'
> number of mass murders and never have.
**Yeah, you do. It's just so common that you no longer take much notice.
>
>> Sensible gun control laws appear to work
>> and work very well.
>
> Ahhh, "sensible gun control laws" - the song of the gun phobe. Every
> one
> of you has your own definition of that term, making it meaningless.
**Not at all. Our gun control laws are sensible. Yours are not. The gun
control laws of almost every other Western developed nation are sensible.
Yours are not. One need only examine the obscene gun related homicide
figures to ascertain why.
>
> If you're interested, and I doubt it, I just heard that at least one of
> the four cops in question did get some shots off at the cowardly asshole
> who
> ambushed them. He may be wounded.
**I heard.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
"RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9CD38532B...@216.196.97.130...
> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in
> news:7ngq57F...@mid.individual.net:
>
>> Jim Alder wrote:
>>> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in
>>> news:7ngbrnF...@mid.individual.net:
>>>
>>>> ...., against a surprise attack?
>>>>
>>>> http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffee-
>>>> shop-
>>> ambush-20091130-jz3t.html?autostart=1
>>>>
>>>> Not very, it seems.
>>>
>>> No, but then nothing does.
>>
>> **Exactly. Guns, as a self defence item, are pretty much useless. A
>> bullet proof vest would be more useful, but you don't see the NRA
>> bleating about that. I wonder why?
>
> Duhhhh, they are a gun group, not a vest group? ;) I don't see you
> ranting for vests either, but I do see you jumping on any little thing
> you think you can a get an inch out of.
>
>>> I always get a kick out of gun phobics
>>
>> **"gun phobics"? What do you mean? I'm not afraid of guns. They do not
>> concern me one bit. What does concern me is the attempts by idiots to
>> weaken our strong gun control laws.
>
> You are afraid of people with guns, Trevor.
**Really? Supply your proof.
Many people are....you
> should simply man up and admit your fears. They seem to be obvious to
> everyone but you.
>
>> like you who can find an
>>> isolated incident where a gun didn't help and say that says guns are
>>> unnecessary, but gun control NEVER works and you still push for it.
>>
>> **I can find a few more, if you wish. Here in Australia, we've had
>> several (armed) police officers who were shot to death by armed
>> assailants.
>
> No, they couldn't have been......gun are almost illegal in OZ.
**You really are an ignorant old twit aren't you? You cannot even manage to
perform a rudimentary investigation into the facts. Sad. Here's a tip:
Before you make a complete idiot of yourself, in future, obtain some
information about the topic you're attempting to discuss first.
How in
> the world did those slip through?
>
> We've also seen the murder of a couple of dozen
>> (presumably armed) criminals by other criminals in surprise attacks.
>
> Ahhh, then your gun control is not as effective as you claim it to be,
> is it.
**Incorrect. It is EXACTLY as effective as I claim it to be. It is far from
perfect. It is, however, VASTLY more effective WRT what passes for gun
control in the US.
Amazing......I didn't think you would not only admit but provide
> examples to prove it.
>
>> OTOH, gun control laws have coincided with a massive fall in the
>> incidence of mass murder here in Australia. Sensible gun control laws
>> appear to work and work very well.
>
> Ohhhhh, here we scramble to get back on message.......
**Of course. Gun control laws work. provided they are sensibly framed and
policed. None of which occurs in the US.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in
> news:7ngbrnF...@mid.individual.net:
>
>> ...., against a surprise attack?
>>
>> http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffee-sh
>> op-ambush-20091130-jz3t.html?autostart=1
>>
>> Not very, it seems.
>>
>>
>
> Actually, it shows that they were not completely aware of their situation
> and were in Condition White or as I refer to it Condition Brown. Would
> it have been different with CCW holders, probably not. A gun is not
> cure-all. What it does do is give me an option you don't have, Trevor.
> No more ..... no less.
**It merely provides you with more options to be shot to death. No more, no
less.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
"Bill Smith" <quan...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:fme8h5955d5atfhn9...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 09:44:26 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
> <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>>...., against a surprise attack?
>>
>>http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffee-shop-ambush-20091130-jz3t.html?autostart=1
>>
>>Not very, it seems.
>
>
> So? What's your point?
**My point is that 4 TRAINED people were unable to use their guns to defend
themselves. What chance for the average person?
>
> Guns aren't a panacea and anyone who suggests that they are is a fool,
> IMO. They are useful for self-defense when properly used in the right
> situation.
**The above situation demonstrates exactly how usefult they are.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Bill Smith
<tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>"Bill Smith" <quan...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
>news:fme8h5955d5atfhn9...@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 09:44:26 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
>> <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>>...., against a surprise attack?
>>>
>>>http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffee-shop-ambush-20091130-jz3t.html?autostart=1
>>>
>>>Not very, it seems.
>>
>>
>> So? What's your point?
>
>**My point is that 4 TRAINED people were unable to use their guns to defend
>themselves. What chance for the average person?
>
>>
>> Guns aren't a panacea and anyone who suggests that they are is a fool,
>> IMO. They are useful for self-defense when properly used in the right
>> situation.
>
>**The above situation demonstrates exactly how usefult they are.
The above incident says a whole lot more about situational awareness
than it does about the usefulness of guns. The Cops were seated in a
booth, behind laptops, totally unaware, it seems that they could be
targets. In that position it would be extremely difficult for them to
draw their weapons. They thought themselves safe, for whatever reason,
they were wrong.
If someone really wants to kill you and has the element of surprise
there isn't a whole lot you can do about it, but to suggest that guns
are useless because of this incident is ridiculous.
Bill Smith
Bill Smith
So you're less likely to be killed if you're unarmed?
Bill Smith
Trevor Wilson
**Rhetorical question. Ask a sensible question and I will attempt to
respond. If you feel the need, read what I wrote.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
> On Tue, 1 Dec 2009 09:31:32 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
> <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Bill Smith" <quan...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
>> news:fme8h5955d5atfhn9...@4ax.com...
>>> On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 09:44:26 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
>>> <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ...., against a surprise attack?
>>>>
>>>> http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffee-shop-ambush-20091130-jz3t.html?autostart=1
>>>>
>>>> Not very, it seems.
>>>
>>>
>>> So? What's your point?
>>
>> **My point is that 4 TRAINED people were unable to use their guns to
>> defend themselves. What chance for the average person?
>>
>>>
>>> Guns aren't a panacea and anyone who suggests that they are is a
>>> fool, IMO. They are useful for self-defense when properly used in
>>> the right situation.
>>
>> **The above situation demonstrates exactly how usefult they are.
>
> If someone really wants to kill you and has the element of surprise
> there isn't a whole lot you can do about it,
**EXACTLY!
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
RD (The Sandman)
>
> "RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns9CD38474E...@216.196.97.130...
>> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in
>> news:7ngbrnF...@mid.individual.net:
>>
>>> ...., against a surprise attack?
>>>
>>> http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffee-
>>> sh op-ambush-20091130-jz3t.html?autostart=1
>>>
>>> Not very, it seems.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Actually, it shows that they were not completely aware of their
>> situation and were in Condition White or as I refer to it Condition
>> Brown. Would it have been different with CCW holders, probably not.
>> A gun is not cure-all. What it does do is give me an option you
>> don't have, Trevor. No more ..... no less.
>
> **It merely provides you with more options to be shot to death. No
> more, no less.
Whether I carry a gun or not won't change my options to be shot to death,
it will simply give me an option of returning fire or ending it first.
RD (The Sandman)
> On Tue, 1 Dec 2009 09:30:04 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
> <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>>
>>"RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>news:Xns9CD38474E...@216.196.97.130...
>>> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in
>>> news:7ngbrnF...@mid.individual.net:
>>>
>>>> ...., against a surprise attack?
>>>>
>>>> http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffee
>>>> -sh op-ambush-20091130-jz3t.html?autostart=1
>>>>
>>>> Not very, it seems.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Actually, it shows that they were not completely aware of their
>>> situation and were in Condition White or as I refer to it Condition
>>> Brown. Would it have been different with CCW holders, probably not.
>>> A gun is not cure-all. What it does do is give me an option you
>>> don't have, Trevor. No more ..... no less.
>>
>>**It merely provides you with more options to be shot to death. No
>>more, no less.
>
> So you're less likely to be killed if you're unarmed?
He may truly believe that.....
RD (The Sandman)
> Bill Smith wrote:
>> On Tue, 1 Dec 2009 09:30:04 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
>> <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast.net> wrote in
>>> message news:Xns9CD38474E...@216.196.97.130...
>>>> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in
>>>> news:7ngbrnF...@mid.individual.net:
>>>>
>>>>> ...., against a surprise attack?
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffe
>>>>> e-sh op-ambush-20091130-jz3t.html?autostart=1
>>>>>
>>>>> Not very, it seems.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Actually, it shows that they were not completely aware of their
>>>> situation and were in Condition White or as I refer to it Condition
>>>> Brown. Would it have been different with CCW holders, probably
>>>> not. A gun is not cure-all. What it does do is give me an option
>>>> you don't have, Trevor. No more ..... no less.
>>>
>>> **It merely provides you with more options to be shot to death. No
>>> more, no less.
>>
>> So you're less likely to be killed if you're unarmed?
>
> **Rhetorical question. Ask a sensible question and I will attempt to
> respond. If you feel the need, read what I wrote.
>
>
He is going on what you said. If it isn't sensible, perhaps, you should
review your own comment.
RD (The Sandman)
>
> "RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns9CD38532B...@216.196.97.130...
>> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in
>> news:7ngq57F...@mid.individual.net:
>>
>>> Jim Alder wrote:
>>>> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in
>>>> news:7ngbrnF...@mid.individual.net:
>>>>
>>>>> ...., against a surprise attack?
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffe
>>>>> e- shop-
>>>> ambush-20091130-jz3t.html?autostart=1
>>>>>
>>>>> Not very, it seems.
>>>>
>>>> No, but then nothing does.
>>>
>>> **Exactly. Guns, as a self defence item, are pretty much useless. A
>>> bullet proof vest would be more useful, but you don't see the NRA
>>> bleating about that. I wonder why?
>>
>> Duhhhh, they are a gun group, not a vest group? ;) I don't see you
>> ranting for vests either, but I do see you jumping on any little
>> thing you think you can a get an inch out of.
>>
>>>> I always get a kick out of gun phobics
>>>
>>> **"gun phobics"? What do you mean? I'm not afraid of guns. They do
>>> not concern me one bit. What does concern me is the attempts by
>>> idiots to weaken our strong gun control laws.
>>
>> You are afraid of people with guns, Trevor.
>
> **Really? Supply your proof.
No need. You tend to do it yourself whenever you post in this group.
> Many people are....you
>> should simply man up and admit your fears. They seem to be obvious
>> to everyone but you.
>>
>>> like you who can find an
>>>> isolated incident where a gun didn't help and say that says guns
>>>> are unnecessary, but gun control NEVER works and you still push for
>>>> it.
>>>
>>> **I can find a few more, if you wish. Here in Australia, we've had
>>> several (armed) police officers who were shot to death by armed
>>> assailants.
>>
>> No, they couldn't have been......gun are almost illegal in OZ.
>
> **You really are an ignorant old twit aren't you? You cannot even
> manage to perform a rudimentary investigation into the facts. Sad.
> Here's a tip: Before you make a complete idiot of yourself, in future,
> obtain some information about the topic you're attempting to discuss
> first.
What did I say that was incorrect, Trevor? Guns are strictly controlled
in OZ....carrying one for purpose of defense is verboten as it isn't
considered a good enough reason, types of guns are limited. Yes, the
term "almost illegal" is an exaggeration but you are familiar with those
like your friend stopping his heart.
One think that you should do a bit of introspection before you start
winging out the names and insults.
> How in
>> the world did those slip through?
>>
>> We've also seen the murder of a couple of dozen
>>> (presumably armed) criminals by other criminals in surprise attacks.
>>
>> Ahhh, then your gun control is not as effective as you claim it to
>> be, is it.
>
> **Incorrect. It is EXACTLY as effective as I claim it to be. It is far
> from perfect. It is, however, VASTLY more effective WRT what passes
> for gun control in the US.
Good. I am glad you are happy with it. Folks like you need that strong
a control before you hurt yourselves.
> Amazing......I didn't think you would not only admit but provide
>> examples to prove it.
>>
>>> OTOH, gun control laws have coincided with a massive fall in the
>>> incidence of mass murder here in Australia. Sensible gun control
>>> laws appear to work and work very well.
>>
>> Ohhhhh, here we scramble to get back on message.......
>
> **Of course. Gun control laws work. provided they are sensibly framed
> and policed. None of which occurs in the US.
ROFLMAO!!
RD (The Sandman)
>
> "Bill Smith" <quan...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
> news:fme8h5955d5atfhn9...@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 09:44:26 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
>> <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>>...., against a surprise attack?
>>>
>>>http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffee-s
>>>hop-ambush-20091130-jz3t.html?autostart=1
>>>
>>>Not very, it seems.
>>
>>
>> So? What's your point?
>
> **My point is that 4 TRAINED people were unable to use their guns to
> defend themselves. What chance for the average person?
Under those same exact conditions? About the same.
>> Guns aren't a panacea and anyone who suggests that they are is a
>> fool, IMO. They are useful for self-defense when properly used in the
>> right situation.
>
> **The above situation demonstrates exactly how usefult they are.
Nope....the above situation only applies to similar situations...period.
RD (The Sandman)
> On Tue, 1 Dec 2009 09:31:32 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
> <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Bill Smith" <quan...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
>>news:fme8h5955d5atfhn9...@4ax.com...
>>> On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 09:44:26 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
>>> <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>>...., against a surprise attack?
>>>>
>>>>http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffee-
>>>>shop-ambush-20091130-jz3t.html?autostart=1
>>>>
>>>>Not very, it seems.
>>>
>>>
>>> So? What's your point?
>>
>>**My point is that 4 TRAINED people were unable to use their guns to
>>defend themselves. What chance for the average person?
>>
>>>
>>> Guns aren't a panacea and anyone who suggests that they are is a
>>> fool, IMO. They are useful for self-defense when properly used in
>>> the right situation.
>>
>>**The above situation demonstrates exactly how usefult they are.
>
> The above incident says a whole lot more about situational awareness
> than it does about the usefulness of guns. The Cops were seated in a
> booth, behind laptops, totally unaware, it seems that they could be
> targets. In that position it would be extremely difficult for them to
> draw their weapons. They thought themselves safe, for whatever reason,
> they were wrong.
Exactomundo.
> If someone really wants to kill you and has the element of surprise
> there isn't a whole lot you can do about it, but to suggest that guns
> are useless because of this incident is ridiculous.
Bingo.....but Trevor is as nonthinking does.
RD (The Sandman)
>
> "Jim Alder" <jima...@ssnet.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9CD2E6B5B4C6B...@216.196.97.142...
>> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>> Jim Alder wrote:
>>>> "Trevor Wilson" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ...., against a surprise attack?
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffe
>>>>> e-shop- ambush-20091130-jz3t.html?autostart=1
>>>>>
>>>>> Not very, it seems.
>>>>
>>>> No, but then nothing does.
>>>
>>> **Exactly. Guns, as a self defence item, are pretty much useless.
>>
>> ROTFLMAO!!! You really should have read the rest of my reply
>> before
>> saying
>> something so stupid.
>
> **Just stating fact.
>
>>
>>> A bullet proof vest would be more useful, but you don't see
>>> the NRA bleating about that. I wonder why?
>>
>> Because they aren't the National Bulletproof Vest Association. And
>> what
>> would they 'bleat' about?
>
> **The NRA has bleated about guns being used as self defence equipment
> yet they ignore bullet proof vests.
No vest is bullet proof.
> Cops already wear vests.
Some do....some don't. Some wear them sometimes.
They try not to talk too
>> much about it because then the bad guys tend to shoot for the head.
They already do.
Trevor Wilson
**Lack of proof duly noted. Claim dismissed.
>
>> Many people are....you
>>> should simply man up and admit your fears. They seem to be obvious
>>> to everyone but you.
>>>
>>>> like you who can find an
>>>>> isolated incident where a gun didn't help and say that says guns
>>>>> are unnecessary, but gun control NEVER works and you still push
>>>>> for it.
>>>>
>>>> **I can find a few more, if you wish. Here in Australia, we've had
>>>> several (armed) police officers who were shot to death by armed
>>>> assailants.
>>>
>>> No, they couldn't have been......gun are almost illegal in OZ.
>>
>> **You really are an ignorant old twit aren't you? You cannot even
>> manage to perform a rudimentary investigation into the facts. Sad.
>> Here's a tip: Before you make a complete idiot of yourself, in
>> future, obtain some information about the topic you're attempting to
>> discuss first.
>
> What did I say that was incorrect, Trevor?
**These words:
"...gun are almost illegal in OZ."
Guns are strictly
> controlled in OZ
**Here is what you REALLY said:
"..gun are almost illegal in OZ."
....carrying one for purpose of defense is verboten
> as it isn't considered a good enough reason, types of guns are
> limited. Yes, the term "almost illegal" is an exaggeration but you
> are familiar with those like your friend stopping his heart.
**And yet, here is what you ACTUALLY wrote:
"...gun are almost illegal in OZ."
Silly old twit.
>
> One think that you should do a bit of introspection before you start
> winging out the names and insults.
**Just stating facts, you silly old twit. Here are your words:
"..gun are almost illegal in OZ."
If you want to retract your words, now would be a good time to do so.
>
>> How in
>>> the world did those slip through?
>>>
>>> We've also seen the murder of a couple of dozen
>>>> (presumably armed) criminals by other criminals in surprise
>>>> attacks.
>>>
>>> Ahhh, then your gun control is not as effective as you claim it to
>>> be, is it.
>>
>> **Incorrect. It is EXACTLY as effective as I claim it to be. It is
>> far from perfect. It is, however, VASTLY more effective WRT what
>> passes for gun control in the US.
>
> Good. I am glad you are happy with it. Folks like you need that
> strong a control before you hurt yourselves.
**All people do. Particularly Americans. Your homicide rate is appallingly
high.
>
>> Amazing......I didn't think you would not only admit but provide
>>> examples to prove it.
>>>
>>>> OTOH, gun control laws have coincided with a massive fall in the
>>>> incidence of mass murder here in Australia. Sensible gun control
>>>> laws appear to work and work very well.
>>>
>>> Ohhhhh, here we scramble to get back on message.......
>>
>> **Of course. Gun control laws work. provided they are sensibly framed
>> and policed. None of which occurs in the US.
>
> ROFLMAO!!
**It's no laughing matter.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Bill Smith
>
>>
>> If someone really wants to kill you and has the element of surprise
>> there isn't a whole lot you can do about it,
>
>**EXACTLY!
Plonk!
Bill Smith
Klaus Schadenfreude
<tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>**You really are an ignorant old twit aren't you? You cannot even manage to
>perform a rudimentary investigation into the facts. Sad. Here's a tip:
>Before you make a complete idiot of yourself, in future, obtain some
>information about the topic you're attempting to discuss first.
here's a perfect example of some twit making a complete ass of
himself.....
:**Exactly. Guns, as a self defence item, are pretty much useless. A bullet
:proof vest would be more useful, but you don't see the NRA bleating about
:that. I wonder why?
Oh wait- that twit was YOU, wasn't it? [chuckle]
Jim Alder
> "Jim Alder" <jima...@ssnet.com> wrote...
>> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>> Jim Alder wrote:
>>>> "Trevor Wilson" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ...., against a surprise attack?
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffee-
shop-
>>>>> ambush-20091130-jz3t.html?autostart=1
>>>>>
>>>>> Not very, it seems.
>>>>
>>>> No, but then nothing does.
>>>
>>> **Exactly. Guns, as a self defence item, are pretty much useless.
>>
>> ROTFLMAO!!! You really should have read the rest of my reply before
>> saying something so stupid.
>
> **Just stating fact.
Not so far.
>>> A bullet proof vest would be more useful, but you don't see the NRA
>>> bleating about that. I wonder why?
>>
>> Because they aren't the National Bulletproof Vest Association. And what
>> would they 'bleat' about?
>
> **The NRA has bleated about guns being used as self defence equipment yet
> they ignore bullet proof vests.
They don't talk about guard dogs, pepper spray or burglar bars, either.
>> Cops already wear vests. They try not to talk too
>> much about it because then the bad guys tend to shoot for the head.
What? No bullshit smartmouth comment?
>>>> I always get a kick out of gun phobics
>>>
>>> **"gun phobics"? What do you mean? I'm not afraid of guns.
>>
>> Sure ya are.
>
> **Prove it.
Boo!! See? You flinched.
>> That's why you're lying about them now and misrepresenting
>> this tragedy as a typical "self-defense" situation.
>
> **Relating a news item is not lying.
No. Pretending it demonstrates that "guns, as a self defence item, are
pretty much useless" is lying.
> In your twisted imagination, perhaps,
> but not here in the real world.
>
>>
>>> They do not concern me one bit.
>>
>> Yeah, right, Trevor. Sure they don't.
>
> **Good. I'm pleased we have established that.
>
>>
>>> What does concern me is the attempts by idiots to weaken our strong
>>> gun control laws.
>>
>> Guns don't concern you one bit, but you're worried the laws might be
>> changed that control them?
>
> **Of course. Allowing idiots, drunks, drug addicts and criminals easy access
> to guns is bad public policy.
They're not allowed. It's illegal.
> It is a bad policy that the US has embraced
> for decades.
Nope. You're misinformed. Such sales are not 'allowed'.
>> I'm speechless. Good thing I'm typing! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
>>
>>>> like you who can find an
>>>> isolated incident where a gun didn't help and say that says guns are
>>>> unnecessary, but gun control NEVER works and you still push for it.
>>>
>>> **I can find a few more, if you wish.
>>
>> I can find you a thousand where they came in handy defending innocent
>> lives.
>
> **Good. I'll make it easy for you. List 10 (TEN) DGUs which have occured on
> any one day in the US. Those DGUs need to be verified by reputable news
> reports and/or police or FBI reports.
How is that easy for me? I don't care that they happen on the same day and
I doubt they do, either.
> Alternatively, how difficult do you think it would be for me to locate 10
> reports of homicide, via gunshot on any one day in the US (Particularly,
> given the FBI reports an average of 27 per day)?
They would need to be homicides committed by someone who was legally
prohibited from owning a gun, yet bought one due to lax gun laws. Because you
showing me homicides only encourages me to keep the means of protection at
hand.
>>> Here in Australia, we've had several
>>> (armed) police officers who were shot to death by armed assailants. We've
>>> also seen the murder of a couple of dozen (presumably armed) criminals by
>>> other criminals in surprise attacks.
>>
>> "Presumably" armed?
>
> **Yep. The police do not release that information.
>
>> Why would you presume that?
>
> **Because each of the men in question was a wealthy, influential criminal.
Not influential enough, apparently.
>> Guns are heavily
>> controlled "down under" so criminals shouldn't have them, should they?
>
> **Of course they shouldn't, but, since they were wealthy, they could afford
> black market (hand) guns.
>
>> Are you
>> saying gun control only disarms those people who obey laws?
>
> **Nope. People who obey the law in Australia can own and use guns (including
> handguns). It is a common and oft-cited myth that Australians cannot own and
> use guns.
It's probably those pictures of piles and piles of guns being destroyed
that started that myth, not to mention the law that outlawed all semiauto
rifles and shotguns and a whole buttload of pumps, too. Without looking too
deeply into it, I assume semiauto handguns are also illegal? Plus you need a
reason to own a gun, one of ten reasons considered 'acceptable'. And one of
them is NOT 'self defense.'
> What the gun control laws have done is this:
In 1997, just 12 months after the new laws went into effect, across Australia
homicides jumped 3.2 percent, armed robberies were up a whopping 44 percent,
assaults up 8.6 and in the state of Victoria there was a 300 percent increase
in homicides.
> * Elevated the price of black market (hand)guns to a level where only
> wealthy criminals can afford them.
Wow! You have price controls on the black market? You're really strict
down there! LOL!
> The average street junkie cannot easily
> obtain one.
> * Reduced the likelihood that guns will be stolen from legal gun owners by
> around 60%.
Really? Did they make stealing illegal?
> * Almost eliminated the possibility of 'straw purchases' of guns.
>
>>
>>> OTOH, gun control laws have coincided with a massive fall in the
>>> incidence of mass murder here in Australia.
>>
>> A "massive" fall in mass murder?
>
> **Actually, I should have said: Mass murder committed via the use of guns.
Yeah, that's the bitch of it, isn't it? You don't really need a gun to do
a mass murder, but apparently, in Australia, you need a mass murder to do away
with the guns.
> What kind of hellhole did that place turn
>> into?
>
> **We had far too many mass murders, via gunshot.
As a wise American once said; "Would you prefer they were pushed out a
window?"
>> How many mass murders were there before and after you lost your rights?
>
> **We lost nothing.
So you can still own a semiauto rifle? Even a 22?
> If you mean:
>
> "How many mass murders, via gunshot, were there before the 1996 gun control
> laws were introduced?"
>
> Then the answer is: 11, in the 10 years prior to 1997.
>
>> Even in the Thunderdome known as the United States, we don't have a
>> 'massive' number of mass murders and never have.
>
> **Yeah, you do. It's just so common that you no longer take much notice.
We take nothing BUT notice. They're in every paper and news broadcast with
breaking news tidbits every chance they get.
>>> Sensible gun control laws appear to work and work very well.
>>
>> Ahhh, "sensible gun control laws" - the song of the gun phobe. Every
>> one of you has your own definition of that term, making it
>> meaningless.
>
> **Not at all. Our gun control laws are sensible. Yours are not. The gun
> control laws of almost every other Western developed nation are sensible.
Yet they're all different, proving my point that your term 'sensible' has
no meaning.
The other day a man was convicted in England. He will get a minimum of
five years. His crime? He saw a trash back in his back yard that someone had
thrown over the fence. He looked inside and found a shotgun and two
cartridges. He took it all to the police station and was immediately arrested.
The prosecutor knew the above facts, but he was tried and convicted anyway. Is
this one of your sensible, developed countries?
> Yours are not. One need only examine the obscene gun related homicide
> figures to ascertain why.
No, YOU need only do that. I need facts, not prejudiced assumptions based
on insufficient date.
>> If you're interested, and I doubt it, I just heard that at least one of
>> the four cops in question did get some shots off at the cowardly asshole
>> who ambushed them. He may be wounded.
>
> **I heard.
So it's possible that he saved the lives of the employees in the coffee
house. At least he protected them. The criminal would likely consider them
eyewitnesses and dispatch them.
Jim Yanik
> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>> **Good. I'll make it easy for you. List 10 (TEN) DGUs which have
>> occured on any one day in the US. Those DGUs need to be verified by
>> reputable news reports and/or police or FBI reports.
>
> How is that easy for me? I don't care that they happen on the same
> day and
> I doubt they do, either.
Trevor is again being dishonest,as he only accepts DGUs that have been
reported,after we've explained [repeatedly]that many DGUs happen where the
gun is not fired,the attack averted,and thus no need or requirement to be
reported,and that most people would rather avoid the delays and paperwork
of making a report.
Nor would news organizations air any report of such occurrences made to
them.
He stubbornly refuses to acknowledege that these incidents are STILL valid
DGUs,since it was the appearance of a gun in the victim's hands that caused
the criminal to turn and flee,-preventing- the attack.
many people would rather not shoot and have the threat flee,than to shoot
and then endure the lengthy police questioning,the potential legal
liabilities,and bear the psychological costs of having to seriously harm
another person.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
Bama Brian
There were some sixty shootings reported in Sydney from 12/1/08 to
12/1/09 in:
http://spotcrime.com/au/sydney
That is a laudable number, considering the size of metropolitan Sydney.
But I thought that Australians no longer had guns. Or was it criminals
they no longer had? Oh, I get so confused with all the rhetoric...
--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana, 1863 - 1952
Jim Alder
september.org:
According to Trevor, only the truly successful criminals have guns.
Jim Alder
> Jim Alder <jima...@ssnet.com> wrote:
>> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>>> **Good. I'll make it easy for you. List 10 (TEN) DGUs which have
>>> occured on any one day in the US. Those DGUs need to be verified by
>>> reputable news reports and/or police or FBI reports.
>>
>> How is that easy for me? I don't care that they happen on the same
>> day and
>> I doubt they do, either.
>
> Trevor is again being dishonest,
The word is "still", not "again".
> as he only accepts DGUs that have been
> reported, after we've explained [repeatedly]that many DGUs happen where the
> gun is not fired,the attack averted,and thus no need or requirement to be
> reported,and that most people would rather avoid the delays and paperwork
> of making a report.
Off topic a little; You should always report it. Yeah, it's a hassle, but
it's a bigger hassle if the punk calls the cops first and says some thug waved
a gun in his face and stole his money, then gives your description. Even with
a CCW, you will have a lot of explaining to do. Besides, if you chase a mugger
away with your gun, I doubt the cops would want more than a description,
unless they catch him, in which case I'd be glad to go down and ID him.
Wouldn't you?
> Nor would news organizations air any report of such occurrences made to
> them.
That's true. Effective use of a gun in self defense is about as welcome to
the media as it is to Hollywood.
> He stubbornly refuses to acknowledege that these incidents are STILL valid
> DGUs,since it was the appearance of a gun in the victim's hands that caused
> the criminal to turn and flee,-preventing- the attack.
Of course! In their eyes, if you don't actually SHOOT someone, you didn't
really USE the gun.
> many people would rather not shoot and have the threat flee,than to shoot
> and then endure the lengthy police questioning,the potential legal
> liabilities,and bear the psychological costs of having to seriously harm
> another person.
Many people? I would think that would be a consensus among mentally
healthy people.
--
My girlfriend asked me "Have you been having
sex behind my back?"
I said "Yeah! Who in the hell did you think it was?"
Jim Alder
Because people (NBC) talked about them.
--
My girlfriend asked me "Have you been having
sex behind my back?"
I said "Who in the hell did you think it was?"
RD (The Sandman)
> RD (The Sandman) wrote:
>> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in
>> news:7nivb3F...@mid.individual.net:
>>
>>>
>>> "RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast.net> wrote in
>>> message news:Xns9CD38532B...@216.196.97.130...
>>>> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in
>>>> news:7ngq57F...@mid.individual.net:
>>>>
>>>>> Jim Alder wrote:
>>>>>> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in
>>>>>> news:7ngbrnF...@mid.individual.net:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ...., against a surprise attack?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-cof
>>>>>>> fe e- shop-
Yep....now continue on.
> ....carrying one for purpose of defense is verboten
>> as it isn't considered a good enough reason, types of guns are
>> limited. Yes, the term "almost illegal" is an exaggeration but you
>> are familiar with those like your friend stopping his heart.
>
> **And yet, here is what you ACTUALLY wrote:
Yep, admitted it right up above. You really are a bit dense, aren't
Trev, old boy.
> "...gun are almost illegal in OZ."
>
> Silly old twit.
>
>
>>
>> One think that you should do a bit of introspection before you start
>> winging out the names and insults.
>
> **Just stating facts, you silly old twit. Here are your words:
But ignoring the main thrust of what I said. You are good at
that....dancing and dodging.
> "..gun are almost illegal in OZ."
>
> If you want to retract your words, now would be a good time to do so.
Why would I wish to do that? I got my point across.
>>> How in
>>>> the world did those slip through?
>>>>
>>>> We've also seen the murder of a couple of dozen
>>>>> (presumably armed) criminals by other criminals in surprise
>>>>> attacks.
>>>>
>>>> Ahhh, then your gun control is not as effective as you claim it to
>>>> be, is it.
>>>
>>> **Incorrect. It is EXACTLY as effective as I claim it to be. It is
>>> far from perfect. It is, however, VASTLY more effective WRT what
>>> passes for gun control in the US.
>>
>> Good. I am glad you are happy with it. Folks like you need that
>> strong a control before you hurt yourselves.
>
> **All people do. Particularly Americans. Your homicide rate is
> appallingly high.
Yep, but not for the reason you think.
>>> Amazing......I didn't think you would not only admit but provide
>>>> examples to prove it.
>>>>
>>>>> OTOH, gun control laws have coincided with a massive fall in the
>>>>> incidence of mass murder here in Australia. Sensible gun control
>>>>> laws appear to work and work very well.
>>>>
>>>> Ohhhhh, here we scramble to get back on message.......
>>>
>>> **Of course. Gun control laws work. provided they are sensibly
>>> framed and policed. None of which occurs in the US.
>>
>> ROFLMAO!!
>
> **It's no laughing matter.
Our homicide rate isn't, but your comments are.
RD (The Sandman)
> RD (The Sandman) wrote:
>> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in
>> news:7ngq57F...@mid.individual.net:
>>
>>> Jim Alder wrote:
>>>> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in
>>>> news:7ngbrnF...@mid.individual.net:
>>>>
>>>>> ...., against a surprise attack?
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffe
>>>>> e- shop-
Don't worry about it....its Trevor's wet dream.
Blinky Bill
"Bama Brian" <claypo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hf3dl9$60s$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> But I thought that Australians no longer had guns.
That is the first flaw in your thought process - the rest of your idiocy
stems from that basic factual error.
> Or was it criminals they no longer had?
See what I mean about the rest of your idiocy.
> Oh, I get so confused with all the rhetoric...
I can understand that - perhaps you should stop spouting that rhetoric.
Trevor Wilson
**Hardly. It is an appalling statistic. One that all sane Australians wish
to see lowered.
>
> But I thought that Australians no longer had guns.
**BZZZZTTT! Wrong. I suggest you read some more. It seems your education is
severely compromised. Hardly surprising.
Or was it
> criminals they no longer had?
**Nope. Australians are legally allowed to own firearms.
Oh, I get so confused with all the
> rhetoric...
**You certainly do. BTW: How many of those shooting incidents were caused by
legal gun owners?
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
**Were all those shootings committed by criminals? Were some (all?)
committed by legal gun owners?
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Jim Yanik
> Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov> wrote:
>
>> Jim Alder <jima...@ssnet.com> wrote:
>>> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>>> **Good. I'll make it easy for you. List 10 (TEN) DGUs which have
>>>> occured on any one day in the US. Those DGUs need to be verified by
>>>> reputable news reports and/or police or FBI reports.
>>>
>>> How is that easy for me? I don't care that they happen on the
>>> same day and
>>> I doubt they do, either.
>>
>> Trevor is again being dishonest,
>
> The word is "still", not "again".
My error,oops. 8-)
>
>> as he only accepts DGUs that have been
>> reported, after we've explained [repeatedly]that many DGUs happen
>> where the gun is not fired,the attack averted,and thus no need or
>> requirement to be reported,and that most people would rather avoid
>> the delays and paperwork of making a report.
>
> Off topic a little; You should always report it. Yeah, it's a
> hassle, but
> it's a bigger hassle if the punk calls the cops first and says some
> thug waved a gun in his face and stole his money, then gives your
> description.
In my area and experience,the cops couldnt find their suspect if you gave
them a PHOTO of the crook.
coupla months ago,-I- got stopped by an officer who said I resembled a bank
robbery suspect....while on a bicycle,noon on a Saturday.I gave him my ID
and CWP,he didn't even look at the gun permit.THEN he had me lift my
sunglasses....??? I doubt he had any idea of what the actual suspect looked
like.
> Even with a CCW, you will have a lot of explaining to do.
> Besides, if you chase a mugger away with your gun, I doubt the cops
> would want more than a description, unless they catch him, in which
> case I'd be glad to go down and ID him. Wouldn't you?
I've done IDs for simple thievery,twice.
I described a SILVER pickup truck towing a alum.box trailer,and the cops
stopped a -black- PU towing a box trailer and drove me over there to ID it.
(same clueless PD.)
>
>> Nor would news organizations air any report of such occurrences made
>> to them.
>
> That's true. Effective use of a gun in self defense is about as
> welcome to
> the media as it is to Hollywood.
>
>> He stubbornly refuses to acknowledege that these incidents are STILL
>> valid DGUs,since it was the appearance of a gun in the victim's hands
>> that caused the criminal to turn and flee,-preventing- the attack.
>
> Of course! In their eyes, if you don't actually SHOOT someone, you
> didn't
> really USE the gun.
it's the same tactic as the "developed world" qualification for their anti-
gun claims.Trying to narrow things down,make their numbers or argument look
better.
>
>> many people would rather not shoot and have the threat flee,than to
>> shoot and then endure the lengthy police questioning,the potential
>> legal liabilities,and bear the psychological costs of having to
>> seriously harm another person.
>
> Many people? I would think that would be a consensus among
> mentally
> healthy people.
>
I still feel bad that the guys who tried to steal my Integra one night,that
I -didn't- shoot(came REAL close to capping the driver),had already stolen
my neighbors radio and wrecked his steering column,and a coupla years
later,came back and DID steal my car.
I also think of all the other people victimized by those thieves after my
run-in with them. F-ing car thieves.
It would have been a clean shoot,too.
but they didn't call police about me brandishing my handgun....
jf...@ix.netcom.com
<tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>...., against a surprise attack?
>
>http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffee-shop-ambush-20091130-jz3t.html?autostart=1
>
>Not very, it seems.
Very it seems:
WOUNDED
Los Angeles Times, Los Angeles, CA, 12/23/01
State: CA
American Rifleman Issue: 3/1/2002
A GUN SHOP EMPLOYEE IN ALHAMBRA, CALIFORNIA, shot and killed
one of four men when they attempted to rob the store. The employee was
working in the office of the Euro Arms Gun Store one Friday morning
when he heard a commotion, said Sheriff's Deputy Roberta Granek. When
he exited the office, one of the robbers confronted him, and the
employee shot him with a semi-automatic rifle. The wounded man's
cohorts fled the store, but police later apprehended two of them.
The Clarksdale Press Register, Clarksdale, Miss., 10/29/01
State: MS
American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2002
Bobby Wolfe was locking the front door of his Moon Lake,
Miss., store one night when a man came around the icebox near the
door, pointed a gun and demanded money. "He had a gun in his hand, and
the other hand was over his face," Wolfe recalled. The storekeeper
dropped and pulled a, 38-cal. revolver from his pocket. "We think the
robbers shot first and Mr. Wolfe returned fire; 'stated Cuohoma County
Sheriff Andrew Thompson of the exchange that followed. When Wolfe took
off running for his nearby home, he encountered a second gunman who
began firing at him. "He shot two or three times, and I shot one more
time; 'said Wolfe. Within five minutes of the robbery, one gunman was
dead, Wolfe was wounded. and police picked up three suspects-one of
whom was mortally wounded-making a getaway Wolfe later said of the
men, whom he recognized, "... I'm sure they intended to kill me
because they know I'd recognize them."
Rockford Register Star, Rockford, Ill., 9/19/2001
State: IL
American Rifleman Issue: 12/1/2001
On a Tuesday afternoon, Rockford, Ill., barber William Cross
was cutting hair as he has for 34 years, when two masked men entered
his shop. One man pointed a gun at Cross and said, "Give it up!" When
Cross asked what was happening, the armed man fired a shot, just
missing the barber's head. Cross responded by reaching into a drawer
for his own gun. His first shot knocked the robber to the floor, but
he was still holding onto his gun. Cross then tried to shoot the gun
out of the suspect's hand and thinks he was successful, as the man
finally dropped his gun. "That's not a good feeling, looking down a
gun barrel," Cross said later. Winnebago County sheriff's deputies
took the injured gunman into custody and they arrested a second man
who was running away from the scene. The barber was shocked when
police told him the name of the wounded would-be robber. Cross had
been cutting his hair for years.
The Tennessean, Nashville, Tenn., 9/11/2001
State: TN
American Rifleman Issue: 12/1/2001
Nashville, Tenn., cab driver had his worst fear come true when
a fare he picked up early one morning pushed an object into his back
and demanded money. The cabbie had become nervous when the man began
making rapid requests. The driver reached for his gun for assurance.
When his passenger attempted to rob him, the cabbie gave him some
money, then fired at him. The wounded robber left the cab, leaving the
blood-stained money behind. The suspect was arrested by police several
blocks away.
The Post and Courier, Charleston, SC, 7/27/01
State: SC
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2001
When Ryan Smith stopped his Nissan Xterra to ask a group of
people at a corner for directions, several men jumped into his
vehicle, and one man punched him in the face, according to harleston,
S.C., police. Smith then grabbed a .25-cal. pistol from his glove
compartment and shot his attacker who was later charged with attempted
carjacking. The wounded attacker had been charged only days earlier in
another incident in which he allegedly robbed a lost motorist at
knifepoint.
The Post and Courier, Charleston, SC, 7/27/01
State: SC
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2001
When Ryan Smith stopped his Nissan Xterra to ask a group of
people at a corner for directions, several men jumped into his
vehicle, and one man punched him in the face, according to harleston,
S.C., police. Smith then grabbed a .25-cal. pistol from his glove
compartment and shot his attacker who was later charged with attempted
carjacking. The wounded attacker had been charged only days earlier in
another incident in which he allegedly robbed a lost motorist at
knifepoint.
Rocky Mountain News, Denver, CO, 5/23/01
State: CO
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2001
Two armed men entered a southwest Denver home one night and
allegedly robbed the family residing there; a man, woman and their two
sons. According to Denver Police Lt. Jon Priest, the men pointed their
handguns at the father and demanded money. The nefarious duo then took
property from the home and, as they were leaving, family members
chased them out of the house. One of the victims grabbed a firearm and
a gun battle ensued leaving one of the suspects wounded.
The San Francisco Chronicle, San Francisco, CA, 5/28/01
State: CA
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2001
John Varney, of Novato, Calif., was shot and critically
wounded when he stormed into the Petaluma home where his ex-girlfriend
was staying. Eric Daviesson and his wife were sheltering Varney's
ex-girlfriend who had complained about domestic violence, said
Petaluma police Lt. Dave Sears. When Varney barged in via an unlocked
front door, he was immediately confronted by Daviesson. Varney
allegedly brandished a knife and moved toward Daviesson, who grabbed a
shotgun and shot him.
Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, Little Rock, AR, 3/3/01
State: AR
American Rifleman Issue: 6/1/2001
Joe Robertson's work day began as any other when he left home
to open his El Dorado, Ark., grocery store, but quickly turned surreal
when two armed robbers accosted him in the parking lot. Little did the
bandits know that Robertson carried a .357 Mag. revolver. In the gun
battle that ensued, Robertson was wounded, but the inept robbers fared
worse. One apparently hit the other with a fatal shotgun blast.
Robertson's wife later said of the incident, "God was with him."
Anchorage Daily News, Anchorage, AK, 2/2/01
State: AK
American Rifleman Issue: 4/1/2001
A Spenard, Alaska, motel clerk was alone at work early one
morning when a man burst in waving a gun and demanding money. "He
threw a gym bag down on the counter and said he wanted the whole
thing," reported the worker, who was armed with a .38-cal. handgun for
which he has a carry permit. The bandit's tenor intensified, however,
when he realized there was little cash to steal. "He said he was going
to kill me," said the clerk who, facing death, pulled the gun from his
vest and fired twice. He was forced to shoot again seconds later when
the man attempted to get up. The wounded, would-be robber finally
surrendered and was transported to a hospital under the watchful eye
of police. The robbery attempt marked the third such incident at the
motel in only a month.
WOUNDED
Dothan Eagle, Dothan, AL, 10/10/02
State: AL
American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2003
A newspaper carrier saved the day, and a man's life, when he
shot a man holding a gun to the head of a Birmingham, Ala.,
convenience store clerk during a robbery. Sam Harper was outside a
Chevron convenience store filling newspaper racks when he saw a man
put on a wig and burst into the store, screaming at clerk Tom Burnett
and pointing a shotgun at Burnett's head. Harper acted immediately by
drawing his own gun, entering the store and firing three times at the
gunman. The wounded robber dropped his shotgun but ran toward Harper,
who shot him twice more. "I just reacted," Harper said. "It was total
chaos, and it was pretty terrifying." Burnett credits Harper with
saving his life. "I was looking down the barrel of a shotgun, and a
shotgun don't miss," he said.
Las Vegas Sun, Las Vegas, NV, 10/08/02
State: NV
American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2003
A man was shot in the buttocks by an armed Las Vegas homeowner
when several men broke into a home in an attempted burglary. The shot
sent the would-be burglars running; one suspect jumped from a
second-story window. Police arrested four men, including the wounded
man, and charged them with burglary with use of a deadly weapon and
home invasion. North Las Vegas Police Lt. Victor Dunn said the
suspects were going through the neighborhood knocking on doors,
looking for an empty house.
Daily Oklahoman, Oklahoma City, OK, 07/17/02
State: OK
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2002
The owner of a Marietta, Okla., jewelry store shot and killed
one of two armed men who attempted to rob his store. Two men had
walked into Norton's Jewelry Store as Ronnie Norton and his wife,
Barbara, were preparing to close for the evening. Norton saw the
suspicious men approaching and slipped his .32-cal. handgun into his
belt. They asked to see a $2,500 wedding set, and Norton went to the
safe to retrieve the rings with one man following him. When Barbara
Norton saw that man reach into his pocket, she ran for the door but
was stopped by the other man who pulled a gun on her. Norton turned to
see what was going on, and the man with him pulled a handgun. When the
gunman ordered the storeowner to the floor, Norton feared he would be
shot in the back of the head. He made his move, and a struggle ensued
during which his assailant was fatally wounded. His attacker's
accomplice fired several shots at Norton, who returned fire with his
own gun. The second gunman and two accomplices waiting outside fled
the scene. Though frightened, the Nortons were uninjured. The
storeowner said he and his wife plan to reopen the store, but will
never feel completely safe again. "We are always going to be alert and
ready for something to happen," he said.
Savannah Morning News, Savannah, GA, 06/27/02
State: GA
American Rifleman Issue: 9/1/2002
Bartender Anne Werner was alone in the Anchorage Lounge,
waiting for the night crew from the paper mill to come in after work.
Suddenly there was a commotion at the package store adjoining the bar.
Werner looked through the window between the two businesses in time to
witness two masked men enter the store. One would-be robber lunged
toward clerk Richard Huggins, who pulled a gun and shot the man. The
second suspect pulled his wounded accomplice out of the store and then
fled. Werner said, "it sounded like a fight at the OK Corral, and
Richard [Huggins] was Wyatt Earp." When Savannah police arrived they
found suspect Jamison Dixon seriously wounded outside the shop. Dixon
died at the scene and police were still looking for the second
suspect.
The Trentonian, Trenton, NJ, 06/15/02
State: NJ
American Rifleman Issue: 9/1/2002
Two masked men entered a Trenton, N.J., area liquor store and
one, armed with a handgun, pushed the gun through a small window in
the cashier's glass enclosure, announced a robbery and demanded cash
from store owner Praveen Malhotra. The owner grabbed his own .357 Mag.
pistol and fired two shots, hitting the suspect in the chest and
sending the second robber fleeing. The wounded suspect, identified by
police as Steven Gudger, was taken to the hospital for treatment.
Gudger, an escapee from Riverfront Prison, faced charges of armed
robbery, aggravated assault and illegal possession of a weapon.
The Tennesean, Nashville, TN, 5/20/02
State: TN
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2002
A Forest Hills, Tenn., man shot and wounded two masked
burglars after they broke into his home. Roy Luckett was awakened
about 2 a.m. when his burglar alarm activated. He picked up his wife's
.38-cal. revolver loaded with 'snake shot' and searched the house.
Upon hearing a noise in the furnace room he opened the door and
discovered two shadowy figures skulking in the darkness. According to
police, the suspects were wearing masks and armed with rifles. Luckett
fired at the men, emptying the gun. He then ran upstairs to get his
.45-cal. pistol. Meanwhile, the pair of bandits tried to force open
Luckett's garage door so they could escape. They fired 14 shots from
at least one rifle into Patsy Lucketts sport-utility vehicle before
making their escape. The pair was later arrested when they sought
medical aid. Luckett says he has no idea why the bandits didnt leave
when his alarm sounded. "They were lucky I didn't take the .45," he
said. "No telling what would have happened. God just guided me through
that night."
The Wichita Eagle, Wichita, KS, 05/23/02
State: KS
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2002
A Wichita, Kan., smoke shop owner shot and wounded an armed
robber in his store after the man tried to shoot him. Lorenzo Harding,
owner of H&H Cigarette Shop, told police he was with a customer when
an armed man burst into his shop. The man reportedly pulled a mask
down to cover his face, said Sgt. Jeff Davis. "Initial reports are
that he was trying to fire the gun, but the gun jammed," Davis said.
The owner then pulled a handgun from under his counter and fired one
shot at the man.
The Star Press, Muncie, IN, 4/10/02
State: IN
American Rifleman Issue: 6/1/2002
A convicted bandit's latest crime spree was brought to a halt
by an armed store clerk in a Muncie, Ind., convenience store. A clerk
at Zipp's Deli told investigators a man [later identified as Willie
Brown] came into the store, told the clerk he had a gun in his jacket
and demanded money from the cash register. Brown allegedly got away
with some cash, but not before the clerk fired his own gun at the
robber, hitting him at least once. Police found the wounded man a few
minutes later in a nearby home. Money allegedly taken from the deli
was recovered, as well, according to authorities. Brown has two
previous convictions for robbery and burglary and was released from
prison last May, according to state Department of Correction records.
Richmond Times-Dispatch, Richmond, VA, 1/08/02
State: VA
American Rifleman Issue: 4/1/2002
Two men armed with handguns entered a Richmond, Virginia,
mini-mart and demanded money from the owner, who was alone in the
store. When the robbers began to pistol-whip the owner, he grabbed his
own pistol and shot one of his attackers. The wounded robber, fleeing
with cash and lottery tickets, collapsed on the sidewalk, and his
cohort escaped in a car. Police spokeswoman Jennifer Reilly said the
men matched descriptions of two who had held up other stores in South
Richmond the previous day.
RAN AWAY
Rockford Register Star, Rockford, IL, 11/19/03
State: IL
American Rifleman Issue: 3/1/2004
Mario Cassola and his sister Lia Mercuri, co-owners of Vinny's
Pizza in Rockford, Ill., are no strangers to crime. One of their
deliverymen has been beaten and robbed, and their restaurant had been
burglarized. When two armed men burst into the pizzeria one Monday
night, the brother-sister team fought back and won. After the men
entered the establishment, one man began beating Cassola about the
head with a hammer while the second man aimed a rifle at him. Cassola
shook off the blows and grabbed his assailant, then used him as a
human shield against the man with the rifle. While her brother held
the men's attention, Mercuri pulled out a gun and began firing. The
two bandits fled empty-handed. Police later recovered the hammer and
rifle and arrested Michael Buck and Vaughn Gulley in connection with
the crime.
Daily Local News, Westchester, Pennsylvania, 11/07/03
State: PA
American Rifleman Issue: 2/1/2004
Two armed men burst into a Coatesville, Pennsylvania, home and
demanded money from the two occupants in the living room. One of the
armed invaders went up to the master bedroom and threatened to shoot
or beat the couple in bed if they didn't hand over some money. The man
in bed, identified as Omar Reid, grabbed a pistol from the nightstand
drawer and shot the robber just as he shot at Reid. With one intruder
down, Reid then raced down the stairs where he encountered the second
man and they exchanged fire. The second home invader fled the scene.
Reid was not injured during the gunfire. The wounded invader was taken
to the hospital.
Antelope Valley Press, Palmdale, CA, 09/21/03
State: CA
American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2004
Two armed men entered Shamrock Liquor in Quartz Hill, Calif.,
wearing black masks over their faces. One of the masked bandits
pointed a gun at the clerk on duty, who reached into a drawer by the
counter, pulled a gun and fired at the men, hitting one would-be
robber in the chest. The suspects fled the store, and a man fitting
the description of the wounded robber was later located at a nearby
hospital where he was being treated for a bullet wound to the chest.
The second suspect was not located.
The Post-Standard, Syracuse, NY, 11/01/03
State: NY
American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2004
Two would-be robbers found their presence was most unwelcome
at a Syracuse, N.Y., restaurant. The owner of the Welcome Inn was in
the restaurant's kitchen when a masked man entered the establishment
and aimed a gun at him, demanding money. Ready to defend himself, the
innkeeper drew his own .45-cal. pistol and aimed it at the gunman, who
fled the restaurant with another man.
News and Record, Greensboro, NC, 10/17/03
State: NC
American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2004
Action Video store manager Ron Simpson says he knows guns. And
he knew the "gun" pointed at him in a store robbery was fake. A man
had approached the counter and pulled a gun from his waistband,
demanding money. Simpson, a Vietnam vet and gun aficionado, said the
gun resembled a 9 mm, but the muzzle was far too small to project a
bullet. "That is not a real gun," Simpson said. "This is a real gun,"
he added, pulling a .25-cal. handgun from his pocket. Simpson then
used a cordless phone to call the authorities. Caught in his 'fake
out,' the unarmed bandit fled when Simpson called the police.
The Sacramento Bee, Sacramento, CA, 08/31/03
State: CA
American Rifleman Issue: 12/1/2003
A bank robbery went awry when the suspects crashed their
getaway car in a Sacramento, Calif., suburb and took off running to
evade authorities. Ed Tippets was in his back yard, watching several
helicopters bear down on his neighborhood, obviously searching for
someone, when he noticed his dog, Charley, was acting strange. "That's
when I decided to get armed," he told authorities. Tippets recalled
that he went to the back of his house to load his gun and then began
searching room to room. Moving toward the kitchen, Tippets noticed a
shoulder in the doorway of his laundry room. "I saw a pistol pointing
at me, so I started firing," he said. The homeowner then ran outside
where he was ordered to the ground by police. The suspect, later
identified as Jermain Blair, fled the house and tried to escape by
jumping several fences. Blair confronted two police officers who had
given chase and was shot in the leg. A police task force is
investigating 13 other local bank robberies that may be linked to
Blair.
The Journal Gazette, Fort Wayne, IN, 08/27/03
State: IN
American Rifleman Issue: 11/1/2003
A Fort Wayne, Ind., liquor store clerk did more than cover for
a coworker when he worked an extra shift one Monday night. He may have
saved the lives of everyone in the store. The employee had come to
work at the Cap 'n Cork liquor store armed with a gun he carries for
personal protection as he rides a bike to and from the job. According
to police reports, a man entered the liquor store carrying a rifle,
which he then fired into the air in an apparent robbery attempt. The
armed employee then pulled his own gun and fatally shot the would-be
robber. A possible accomplice of the gunman fled the store after the
shooting.
Sun-Sentinel, Fort Lauderdale, FL, 07/31/03
State: FL
American Rifleman Issue: 11/1/2003
A Pompano Beach, Fla., jewelry store owner, Alfredo Guido, was
buzzing in a customer when four masked men pushed their way into the
store. The owner's son, Meliton Guido, grabbed a handgun from under
the counter and hid behind the cash register. One of the masked
intruders then pointed a gun at the store owner's head. Another of the
armed bandits saw that the younger Guido was armed and fired at him.
The owner's son fired back and struck one of the assailants. The son
then yelled for his father to jump over the counter and, as he did,
the four robbers tried to leave the store; but the door was locked.
The younger Guido hit the buzzer, and the men fled empty-handed. The
wounded robber collapsed outside the store and later died. Police were
still searching for the other suspects.
Arkansas Democrat Gazette, Little Rock, AR, 06/16/03
State: AR
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2003
Little Rock, Ark., man saved his own life late one night when
three people broke into his house. Upon seeing the intruders, Eric
Penny rushed into another room to retrieve his pistol when one man
fired a rifle in his direction. Unhurt, Penny returned fire, striking
all three. The armed assailant was shot in the head and later died of
his wounds. His two alleged accomplices, who fled the scene after
being shot, were located at a nearby medical clinic.
Denton Chronicle-Record, Denton, TX 06/17/03
State: OK
American Rifleman Issue: 9/1/2003
Stephen Heller was visiting with a woman who had called him
and then come over to his home when two masked men armed with a pistol
broke in, beat him and tried to tie him up. During the struggle,
Heller used his knife to cut one man and then grabbed his gun and
fatally shot the other man, later identified as Scott Howard. The
woman, Wyndie Odom, fled on foot with the other assailant, identified
as Travis Lee Smith. Odom's car was still in Heller's garage as he had
closed the garage door after she pulled in. Detective Sgt. Roger White
said it was believed the woman had brought the men with her to rob
Heller and that they had hidden in her trunk when she pulled into
Heller's garage. Odom and Smith were later arrested in Ardmore, Okla.
Tampa Tribune, Tampa, FL, 06/09/03
State: FL
American Rifleman Issue: 9/1/2003
A Tampa, Fla., resident shot and wounded a man who attacked
him as he entered his home early one morning. Michael Perdue was
returning to his home at 5 a.m. when a masked man forced him inside
the house. Perdue was able to retrieve his gun and shoot the intruder
three times before the man fled. Albert Lee Jones was arrested hours
later when he sought medical treatment for multiple gunshot wounds.
Jones was charged with aggravated battery, attempted armed robbery and
armed burglary.
The News Tribune, Tacoma, WA, 06/03/03
State: WA
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2003
A 64-year-old Tacoma, Wash., resident confined to his bed
managed to defend himself when attacked by an intruder. He had just
heard his wife leave the house when there was a loud bang, and then
the back door was kicked in. The homeowner grabbed his gun in one hand
and the phone to dial 9-1-1 with the other. That's when a strange man
entered his room, hiding his face with a handkerchief and intoning,
"I'm going to get you." According to the resident, "That's when I shot
him." The wounded intruder and an accomplice fled, and police alerted
area hospitals. The homeownerwho said hes kept a gun in his home for
protection for years, but had not fired it outside the range before
the incidentsaid, "I'm thoroughly convinced this guy would have killed
me."
The Oakland Press, Pontiac, MI, 05/13/03
State: MI
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2003
A 75-year-old Independence Township, Mich., man was sitting on
his couch watching television when he heard a loud noise. The
homeowner went to investigate, and as he entered the kitchen he
discovered three men coming in his back door, which had been kicked
open. There was an exchange of gunfire between the resident and
intruders, and the would-be burglars fled. Unfortunately, the man
wasn't able to provide good descriptions of the intruders for police.
St. Louis Post-Dispatch, St. Louis, MO, 01/16/03
State: MO
American Rifleman Issue: 4/1/2003
Two masked men entered the Michigan Market in St. Louis, Mo.,
just around lunchtime, and one man pointed a sawed-off shotgun at the
head of storeowner Martin McLafferty. The owner responded by knocking
away the gun in his face and grabbing his own pistol. He then shot one
of the gunmen, and the suspects fled in a pickup truck. Police found
gravely wounded suspect Charles Jackson shortly after the attempted
robbery. His accomplice, Damon Hayes, was arrested, as well. Jackson
died while in custody, and because he died during the commission of a
felony, his accomplice, Hayes, was charged with murder in addition to
the first-degree robbery charge.
New Castle News, New Castle, PA, 01/23/03
State: PA
American Rifleman Issue: 4/1/2003
A Volant, Pa., man was having a bothersome morning because
someone kept calling and hanging up. Then the man received a call from
a neighbor telling him he'd seen six people get out of a car with
hoods, scarves and latex gloves and were now sneaking around his
house. The homeowner surprised the group of bandits when they broke
in, and he held one of the intruders at gunpoint for police. The
others fled the scene in a green Buick. Police made five arrests, and
the homeowner recognized one of the suspects as a boy who attended his
church and had spent time with his family in his house. "I felt
terrible," he said when he recognized the suspect. "I treated the kid
like a son. Everyone was right. They told me not to bring him home."
Kingsport Times-News, Kingsport, TN, 01/20/03
State: TN
American Rifleman Issue: 4/1/2003
A masked man armed with knives approached a pharmacist and
demanded narcotics, but the pharmacist dispensed lead instead. The
suspect entered Marcum's Pharmacy in Kingsport, Tenn., at 2:10 p.m.
and approached pharmacy owner Carl Marcum, demanding the narcotic
drugs OxyContin and Percocet. Marcum pulled his .38-cal. handgun and
shot the suspect, who fled out the back door and drove off in a Buick.
Police notified local hospitals to be on the lookout for a man
suffering from a gunshot wound. Two hours later the suspect, Jeffery
Jessee, was arrested at a local hospital, where he was treated and
released. Jessee was charged with aggravated robbery.
WOUNDED
Times-News, Hendersonville, NC, 12/28/03
State: NC
American Rifleman Issue: 3/1/2004
A 34-year-old man tried to make good on threats he had made to
his ex-wife. Despite a court order demanding he stay away from his ex
and her home, the man broke into her house. The woman was fearful, as
her ex-husband had previously called her several times threatening to
kill her. She immediately picked up the phone and began to dial 9-1-1.
The intruder hit her in the face and knocked the phone out of her
hand. Another man, who lives in the home, picked up a .30-30 Win.
rifle and shot the woman's attacker in the leg. The wounded man was
airlifted to a local hospital. Sheriff's deputies say they had
responded to the same house numerous times prior to the shooting.
Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, Pittsburgh, PA, 01/04/04
State: PA
American Rifleman Issue: 3/1/2004
Two men entered Ann's Market one night in an apparent robbery
attempt, and one of them was shot by a store employee. Inside the
store, one of the would-be robbers brandished a handgun. Upon seeing
the gun, the clerk on duty pulled a firearm and shot his assailant.
The accomplice then fled the store. The wounded crook faces robbery
and firearms violations charges -- once he is released from the
hospital.
The Philadelphia Inquirer, Philadelphia, PA, 12/18/03
State: PA
American Rifleman Issue: 3/1/2004
Alex Patlakh, owner of Rush Jewelers in North Philadelphia,
shot one of a pair of thugs during an attempted robbery and was
wounded in the struggle when a bullet grazed his head and another hit
him in the shoulder. It was not the first business robbery the Patlakh
family had experienced. In 1999, Patlakh's son, Brogdan, was killed
when his jewelry store was robbed. This latest attempt occurred just
before 9:45 a.m. Two men stood at the door of the shop and motioned
that they wished to enter. Patlakh pressed a buzzer to open the door
and the men came inside, asking to look at some jewelry. One man
suddenly drew a gun, and a struggle ensued. Shots were exchanged,
leaving Patlakh and one of the robbers wounded. The second robber
escaped.
Daily Local News, Westchester, Pennsylvania, 11/07/03
State: PA
American Rifleman Issue: 2/1/2004
Two armed men burst into a Coatesville, Pennsylvania, home and
demanded money from the two occupants in the living room. One of the
armed invaders went up to the master bedroom and threatened to shoot
or beat the couple in bed if they didn't hand over some money. The man
in bed, identified as Omar Reid, grabbed a pistol from the nightstand
drawer and shot the robber just as he shot at Reid. With one intruder
down, Reid then raced down the stairs where he encountered the second
man and they exchanged fire. The second home invader fled the scene.
Reid was not injured during the gunfire. The wounded invader was taken
to the hospital.
Antelope Valley Press, Palmdale, CA, 09/21/03
State: CA
American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2004
Two armed men entered Shamrock Liquor in Quartz Hill, Calif.,
wearing black masks over their faces. One of the masked bandits
pointed a gun at the clerk on duty, who reached into a drawer by the
counter, pulled a gun and fired at the men, hitting one would-be
robber in the chest. The suspects fled the store, and a man fitting
the description of the wounded robber was later located at a nearby
hospital where he was being treated for a bullet wound to the chest.
The second suspect was not located.
The Philadelphia Inquirer, Philadelphia, PA, 10/30/03
State: PA
American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2004
Norman Woodall shot and killed one of two men who broke into
his home around 1:40 a.m. Woodall told police that one of the men had
been armed with a gun when the two kicked open his front door and
stormed in, apparently intending to rob him. Woodall struggled with
the would-be robbers and fired his own gun, striking one of the men in
the face and causing the second man to flee. The wounded assailant,
later identified as Darnell Woodward, was pronounced dead at the
scene.
The Huntsville Times, Huntsville, AL, 09/15/03
State: LA
American Rifleman Issue: 12/1/2003
In an odd turn of events, a Decatur, La., man shot an intruder
and then administered first aid to the wounded suspect. Ronald Kirk
was awakened just before dawn one Sunday by an intruder. Kirk shot the
would-be burglar in the leg and dialed 9-1-1. The homeowner then
applied pressure to the wound to slow the bleeding until police
arrived. The suspect, Robert Lee Goode, was taken to the hospital, and
later charged with second-degree burglary and possession of burglar's
tools.
San Antonio Express-News, San Antonio, TX, 08/28/03
State: TX
American Rifleman Issue: 11/1/2003
A home invasion in San Antonio, Texas, ended when the invader,
James Adam Garcia, was killed by the homeowner, Richard Gomez, Sr.
Gomez's son, Richard, Jr., told police he had been in the living room
watching TV when someone knocked at the door. When Gomez answered, a
man pushed his way inside saying, "This is a jack." The intruder,
later identified as Garcia, then repeated the phrase before shooting
the younger Gomez in the leg. Garcia then ordered the wounded man
toward the back of the house. The elder Gomez was in a bedroom with
his wife when he heard the gunshot. He grabbed a .357-cal. revolver
and left the bedroom to investigate. When Garcia saw Gomez, Sr., he
fired at him, striking the elder Gomez in the chest. The homeowner
then raised his gun and fired two shots at Garcia, killing him.
Sun-Sentinel, Fort Lauderdale, FL, 07/31/03
State: FL
American Rifleman Issue: 11/1/2003
A Pompano Beach, Fla., jewelry store owner, Alfredo Guido, was
buzzing in a customer when four masked men pushed their way into the
store. The owner's son, Meliton Guido, grabbed a handgun from under
the counter and hid behind the cash register. One of the masked
intruders then pointed a gun at the store owner's head. Another of the
armed bandits saw that the younger Guido was armed and fired at him.
The owner's son fired back and struck one of the assailants. The son
then yelled for his father to jump over the counter and, as he did,
the four robbers tried to leave the store; but the door was locked.
The younger Guido hit the buzzer, and the men fled empty-handed. The
wounded robber collapsed outside the store and later died. Police were
still searching for the other suspects.
The Daily Oklahoman, Oklahoma City, OK, 06/18/03
State: OK
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2003
It was not the first time R&R Jewelers of Oklahoma City, Okla.
had been robbed. When an armed man demanded money from storeowner
Larry Rowell, he complied and gave the miscreant some cash. But then
the robber turned to the diamond display case. In the ensuing exchange
of gunfire Rowell was wounded in the chest and the robber was killed.
Tampa Tribune, Tampa, FL, 06/09/03
State: FL
American Rifleman Issue: 9/1/2003
A Tampa, Fla., resident shot and wounded a man who attacked
him as he entered his home early one morning. Michael Perdue was
returning to his home at 5 a.m. when a masked man forced him inside
the house. Perdue was able to retrieve his gun and shoot the intruder
three times before the man fled. Albert Lee Jones was arrested hours
later when he sought medical treatment for multiple gunshot wounds.
Jones was charged with aggravated battery, attempted armed robbery and
armed burglary.
Southwest News, Bellaire, TX, 05/13/03
State: TX
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2003
A south Houston, Texas, couple was loading items into their
car in front of their home when two young men approached them and
struck up a conversation. The woman said the men made her
uncomfortable, and she immediately backed away from them. She noticed
that as one man kept talking the other was moving behind her husband
and kept his hand deep in his pants pocket. The woman ran inside and
called 9-1-1 and then looked out her front window. One of the men now
had a gun pointed at her husband's head. She then ran into another
room and picked up a gun just as the second man burst into her house.
He came straight at her, and she fired the gun, striking him in the
arm. The wounded man ran from the house, shouting to his partner that
he'd been shot. The nefarious duo then ran off in opposite directions.
Police had the two 16-year-old suspects in custody within minutes.
The News Tribune, Tacoma, WA, 06/03/03
State: WA
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2003
A 64-year-old Tacoma, Wash., resident confined to his bed
managed to defend himself when attacked by an intruder. He had just
heard his wife leave the house when there was a loud bang, and then
the back door was kicked in. The homeowner grabbed his gun in one hand
and the phone to dial 9-1-1 with the other. That's when a strange man
entered his room, hiding his face with a handkerchief and intoning,
"I'm going to get you." According to the resident, "That's when I shot
him." The wounded intruder and an accomplice fled, and police alerted
area hospitals. The homeownerwho said hes kept a gun in his home for
protection for years, but had not fired it outside the range before
the incidentsaid, "I'm thoroughly convinced this guy would have killed
me."
The Arizona Republic, Phoenix, AZ, 05/20/03
State: AZ
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2003
A Phoenix, Ariz., construction equipment company had been hit
by a string of burglaries, so the owners decided to take turns
standing guard at night to ward off any more thieves. Early one
Tuesday morning Douglas Click, one of the owners at Arizona Hi-Lift,
was guarding the company armed with a shotgun. He confronted two men
who were stealing items from the equipment yard, and they attacked him
with a metal rod, according to Phoenix Police Detective Tony Morales.
Click responded by firing at his attackers, and one was fatally
wounded. Detective Morales said no charges would be filed against
Click as, "he was in fear of his life and he was being attacked."
Los Angeles Times, Los Angeles, CA, 02/27/03
State: CA
American Rifleman Issue: 6/1/2003
Vanessa Perrigoue had just taken her 4-year-old terrier,
Ethan, out for a morning walk in their Laguna Niguel neighborhood when
two large dogs jumped the smaller dog. Perrigoue screamed and
attempted to rescue Ethan, but the dogs, a pit bull mix and Labrador
mix, continued their vicious attack. Upon hearing his wife's screams,
Joseph Perrigoue grabbed his .45-cal. handgun and went to her aid. The
Perrigoues' dog, Ethan, had been killed and his attackers had run off.
Perrigoue followed the dogs' bloody tracks back to a nearby apartment.
When he knocked on the door, both dogs jumped out an open window and
attacked him. Perrigoue defended himself, shooting both dogs.
Animal-control officers took the wounded dogs away and attempted to
contact their owner, whom neighbors said had been out of town for
several days.
The Tampa Tribune, Tampa, FL, 02/01/03
State: FL
American Rifleman Issue: 5/1/2003
Teresa Castellano and her 6-year-old daughter, Alysa, were
visiting Alysa's friend, Kaitlyn, at her home when terror erupted
inside. The girls were watching TV and began laughing loudly at
something they had seen. The abrupt laughter apparently startled the
dogs in the house, which began growling and barking. Sensing the two
rottweilers and pit bull were not playing around, Castellano tried to
get the girls to be quiet, but the dogs attacked them, biting Kaitlyn
and Alysa. Castellano was able to distract the dogs, which allowed the
girls time to run to safety at a neighbor's house, but by then
Castellano herself was being attacked. Two neighbors armed with
handguns fired on the dogs to get them to release the woman. One of
the armed men was bitten in the leg during the struggle. One dog was
killed, and the other two retreated back into the house. Authorities
found one dog wounded and the other lying on the floor inside. They
were taken to a local animal shelter and later euthanized. Castellano
and her daughter each required 100 stitches to close their wounds, and
Kaitlyn needed 20 stitches.
St. Louis Post-Dispatch, St. Louis, MO, 01/16/03
State: MO
American Rifleman Issue: 4/1/2003
Two masked men entered the Michigan Market in St. Louis, Mo.,
just around lunchtime, and one man pointed a sawed-off shotgun at the
head of storeowner Martin McLafferty. The owner responded by knocking
away the gun in his face and grabbing his own pistol. He then shot one
of the gunmen, and the suspects fled in a pickup truck. Police found
gravely wounded suspect Charles Jackson shortly after the attempted
robbery. His accomplice, Damon Hayes, was arrested, as well. Jackson
died while in custody, and because he died during the commission of a
felony, his accomplice, Hayes, was charged with murder in addition to
the first-degree robbery charge.
KILLED
Clarion-Ledger, Jackson, Mississippi, 12/02/03
State: MS
American Rifleman Issue: 2/1/2004
A Madison County, Mississippi, woman shot and killed her
attacker during a home invasion. The woman had answered her door late
one evening when a man armed with a gun forced his way inside. "He
physically assaulted her," reported Madison County Sheriff Toby
Trowbridge. The homeowner managed to pull her gun just as her attacker
drew his. The home invader, shot in the abdomen, ran from the house
and collapsed in the driveway, according to police reports. A
suspected accomplice drove away in a car and has not been located. The
homeowner was taken to the hospital suffering from a gunshot wound to
her side, and was reported to be in stable condition.
The Forum, Fargo, ND, 10/30/03
State: ND
American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2004
Kim Fedje shot and killed two dogs that had viciously attacked
a herd of 13 llamas in her care before turning and charging her. Fedje
was out on her morning rounds feeding the animals. As she approached
the llamas, she noticed they were huddled together in a defensive
stance. That's when she saw two dogs circling the herd. When she
called out to the llamas, the dogs turned in her direction. "I could
hear them growling from 40 yards away," Fedje recalled. "They were
making a beeline for me. I thought I was dead." Fedje reacted by
firing her rifle at the attacking dogs. The first dog fell after two
or three shots, the second dog continued toward her until she had
emptied her gun. Fedje called her fianc� who went back out with her to
examine the animals. All 13 llamas had suffered dog bites. The dogs, a
labrador/rottweiler mix, belonged to a neighbor who had taken them out
for a walk the night before. Both animals had run off into a cornfield
and did not return.
The Philadelphia Inquirer, Philadelphia, PA, 10/30/03
State: PA
American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2004
Norman Woodall shot and killed one of two men who broke into
his home around 1:40 a.m. Woodall told police that one of the men had
been armed with a gun when the two kicked open his front door and
stormed in, apparently intending to rob him. Woodall struggled with
the would-be robbers and fired his own gun, striking one of the men in
the face and causing the second man to flee. The wounded assailant,
later identified as Darnell Woodward, was pronounced dead at the
scene.
Las Vegas Review-Journal, Las Vegas, NV, 09/18/03
State: NV
American Rifleman Issue: 12/1/2003
A Las Vegas, Nev., woman shot and killed her next-door
neighbor, whom she had previously caught burglarizing her home. Felipe
Starks was trying to evade police officers, who wanted him in
connection with a string of burglaries and a parole violation, by
using a crawl space above the two apartments. The woman had just
stepped out of her shower when Starks crashed through her ceiling.
Fearing for her life, she picked up a gun she had purchased after the
burglary in April, and fired several shots at Starks, who ran back
into his apartment. Police took him into custody, but he later died of
his wounds. Las Vegas homicide Lt. Tom Monahan said it appeared the
woman had cause to fear for her life. "If a man fell through the
ceiling right after you're getting out of the shower -- I'm told she
had just finished drying off -- I think it's reasonable that you would
be terrified," he said.
San Antonio Express-News, San Antonio, TX, 08/28/03
State: TX
American Rifleman Issue: 11/1/2003
A home invasion in San Antonio, Texas, ended when the invader,
James Adam Garcia, was killed by the homeowner, Richard Gomez, Sr.
Gomez's son, Richard, Jr., told police he had been in the living room
watching TV when someone knocked at the door. When Gomez answered, a
man pushed his way inside saying, "This is a jack." The intruder,
later identified as Garcia, then repeated the phrase before shooting
the younger Gomez in the leg. Garcia then ordered the wounded man
toward the back of the house. The elder Gomez was in a bedroom with
his wife when he heard the gunshot. He grabbed a .357-cal. revolver
and left the bedroom to investigate. When Garcia saw Gomez, Sr., he
fired at him, striking the elder Gomez in the chest. The homeowner
then raised his gun and fired two shots at Garcia, killing him.
The Commercial Appeal, Memphis, TN, 06/16/03
State: TN
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2003
David Ronald Washington, the alleged Memphis, Tenn., 'cat
burglar' tied to a string of residential burglaries, was killed during
an altercation with a homeowner. Washington, who had crept through a
window, came face to face with the resident who shot him during the
ensuing struggle. The burglary spree began in early May, and despite
stepped up patrols by police, they were unable to catch the criminal.
Burglary Bureau Maj. Billy Garrett said, "I hate for someone to lose
their life, but for all of those innocent victims out there -- they
don't have to worry about this particular guy."
The Washington Post, Washington, DC, 07/14/03
State: MD
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2003
A would-be robber had the bad fortune of choosing the wrong
restaurant to rob when he was shot and killed by an employee at the
Oriental Express restaurant in Laurel, Md. Prince George's County
police spokeswoman Cpl. Tammy Sparkman reported that a man entered the
restaurant about 9:30 p.m., drew a gun, demanded money and grabbed a
restaurant worker. Upon seeing a coworker held at gunpoint, another
employee, armed with a gun, ran out of the restaurant's kitchen and
fatally shot the robber.
The Daily Oklahoman, Oklahoma City, OK, 06/18/03
State: OK
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2003
It was not the first time R&R Jewelers of Oklahoma City, Okla.
had been robbed. When an armed man demanded money from storeowner
Larry Rowell, he complied and gave the miscreant some cash. But then
the robber turned to the diamond display case. In the ensuing exchange
of gunfire Rowell was wounded in the chest and the robber was killed.
The Record-Courier, Gardnerville, NV, 08/06/03
State: NV
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2003
A Gardnerville, Nev., home-owner shot and killed a man who
broke into his home. According to police reports, Walter Francis
Hetrick of Antioch, Calif., broke a window next to a door at 11:24
p.m. and then entered through the door. Charles Cryderman heard
someone breaking in and called police. The homeowner, armed with a
.357-cal. revolver, then shot the intruder when he entered his home.
Douglas County Sheriff's investigator Mike Biaggini said that a man
protecting 'his castle' against someone committing a felony such as
home invasion and burglary is allowed to defend himself. "He was in
fear of his life," Biaggini explained. "His whole family was there."
Times-Picayune, New Orleans, LA, 06/11/03
State: LA
American Rifleman Issue: 9/1/2003
A Central City hubcap store-owner shot and killed a man during
an armed robbery attempt. The owner of Meyer's Auto Parts told police
that a man entered his store around 6 p.m. and asked him several
questions about hubcaps. The man then appeared to look around the
store a few times, which made the owner nervous. The shopkeeper wisely
retrieved a gun from under the counter and discreetly tucked it into
the small of his back. Shortly thereafter, the suspect drew a small
Russian-made pistol and demanded money. The owner reported that he
reached behind his back in a deliberate motion as though he was going
for his wallet, but drew his gun instead. Police reported that the
owner apparently fired one time, hitting the robbery suspect in the
chest. The gunman ran from the store but collapsed nearby and was
later pronounced dead at the hospital.
The News Tribune, Tacoma, WA, 06/03/03
State: WA
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2003
A 64-year-old Tacoma, Wash., resident confined to his bed
managed to defend himself when attacked by an intruder. He had just
heard his wife leave the house when there was a loud bang, and then
the back door was kicked in. The homeowner grabbed his gun in one hand
and the phone to dial 9-1-1 with the other. That's when a strange man
entered his room, hiding his face with a handkerchief and intoning,
"I'm going to get you." According to the resident, "That's when I shot
him." The wounded intruder and an accomplice fled, and police alerted
area hospitals. The homeownerwho said hes kept a gun in his home for
protection for years, but had not fired it outside the range before
the incidentsaid, "I'm thoroughly convinced this guy would have killed
me."
Journal Star, Peoria, IL, 03/12/03
State: IL
American Rifleman Issue: 6/1/2003
The day after he was released from prison, where he served
time for domestic battery against Charolette Gates, Christopher Winder
broke into Gates' home. A fight broke out, and Gates reached for a
handgun to defend herself. Gates shot Winder once in the chest. Police
discovered Winder collapsed in a neighbor's back yard, and he was
later pronounced dead at the scene. No charges were expected to be
filed against Gates, according to Peoria County State's Attorney Kevin
Lyons. "Your home is your sanctuary, and if an intruder breaks in and
gets killed, then too bad for the intruder," Lyons said. "I am not
going to victimize her yet again because a recently released felon
decided to invade the quiet world of her home."
Los Angeles Times, Los Angeles, CA, 02/27/03
State: CA
American Rifleman Issue: 6/1/2003
Vanessa Perrigoue had just taken her 4-year-old terrier,
Ethan, out for a morning walk in their Laguna Niguel neighborhood when
two large dogs jumped the smaller dog. Perrigoue screamed and
attempted to rescue Ethan, but the dogs, a pit bull mix and Labrador
mix, continued their vicious attack. Upon hearing his wife's screams,
Joseph Perrigoue grabbed his .45-cal. handgun and went to her aid. The
Perrigoues' dog, Ethan, had been killed and his attackers had run off.
Perrigoue followed the dogs' bloody tracks back to a nearby apartment.
When he knocked on the door, both dogs jumped out an open window and
attacked him. Perrigoue defended himself, shooting both dogs.
Animal-control officers took the wounded dogs away and attempted to
contact their owner, whom neighbors said had been out of town for
several days.
The Sacramento Bee, Sacramento, CA, 03/05/03
State: CA
American Rifleman Issue: 5/1/2003
Chad Lewis answered a knock at the door of his Sacramento
County, Calif., home late one night and was attacked by a frightening
figure. The home invader, wearing a ski mask and armed with a metal
pipe, struck Lewis repeatedly on the upper body and head. Lewis'
roommate was recovering from knee surgery and could not physically
assist him, but managed to call 9-1-1 and get hold of his rifle, as he
feared Lewis would be killed in the attack. Meanwhile, Lewis broke
free from his assailant and retrieved a handgun from his bedroom. A
struggle ensued over the gun, but Lewis was finally able to pull free
and shoot his attacker. When authorities arrived, both Lewis and the
intruder were taken to the hospital. Lewis' condition was serious, and
his attacker was in critical condition with a gunshot wound to the
head.
The Tampa Tribune, Tampa, FL, 02/01/03
State: FL
American Rifleman Issue: 5/1/2003
Teresa Castellano and her 6-year-old daughter, Alysa, were
visiting Alysa's friend, Kaitlyn, at her home when terror erupted
inside. The girls were watching TV and began laughing loudly at
something they had seen. The abrupt laughter apparently startled the
dogs in the house, which began growling and barking. Sensing the two
rottweilers and pit bull were not playing around, Castellano tried to
get the girls to be quiet, but the dogs attacked them, biting Kaitlyn
and Alysa. Castellano was able to distract the dogs, which allowed the
girls time to run to safety at a neighbor's house, but by then
Castellano herself was being attacked. Two neighbors armed with
handguns fired on the dogs to get them to release the woman. One of
the armed men was bitten in the leg during the struggle. One dog was
killed, and the other two retreated back into the house. Authorities
found one dog wounded and the other lying on the floor inside. They
were taken to a local animal shelter and later euthanized. Castellano
and her daughter each required 100 stitches to close their wounds, and
Kaitlyn needed 20 stitches.
Tulsa World, Tulsa, OK, 01/26/03
State: OK
American Rifleman Issue: 4/1/2003
A "good Samaritan" came to the rescue of a woman who was the
apparent victim of a sexual assault in downtown Tulsa, Okla. The man
was surveying possible construction sites in the area when he saw two
partially disrobed people struggling in an alleyway. When the woman
screamed for help, the man ran to assist her. The suspect then jumped
into his vehicle, a Ford Taurus, and tried to hit his victim with the
car. The Samaritan responded by drawing a .40-cal. handgun and firing
several shots at the woman's assailant, who was killed. Sergeant Mike
Huff said the woman tried to get a ride home from her attacker, when
the man pulled into the alley and attempted to assault her. Referring
to the woman's rescuer, Huff said, "It appears that this man really
interrupted a bad situation."
The Baltimore Sun, Baltimore, MD, 10/20/02
State: MD
American Rifleman Issue: 2/1/2003
A 19-year-old Midtown, Md., man was shot and killed when he
opened fire on two motorists stopped at a red light. The man in the
second of the two cars drew his own gun and shot back. Andre Lamont
Hill approached a car stopped at a red light in Baltimore at 10:20
p.m. and fired multiple times, hitting that car and a car directly
behind it. When the second car was sprayed with bullets, the driver,
who had a permit to carry a gun, fired back, striking Hill several
times in the head. The motive for the attack was unknown, according to
Baltimore police.
WOUNDED
Goldsboro News-Argus, Goldsboro, N.C., 12/7/04
State: NC
American Rifleman Issue: 12/1/2004
Michael Strickland was taking care of some business matters in
his home near Whiteville, N.C., when two men entered. One of them
pulled a gun and demanded a receipt for nine months' rent, threatening
to kill Strickland and his wife if he did not hand it over. Strickland
feigned compliance, but reached for his .38 Spl. revolver, fired, and
killed the armed man. The accomplice fled. The fatally wounded gunman
was found to have a lengthy criminal record.
Orlando Sentinel, Orlando, FL, 08/11/04
State: FL
American Rifleman Issue: 12/1/2004
"I feel like I protected my own life," said Judy Foster
regarding an attempted robbery she stopped at the Haines City,
Florida, Mister Money USA store. Foster, the proprietor, had been
through a robbery before, so when two men came into the store carrying
guns, she did not hesitate to pull out her pistol and fire. One man
fell to the ground, but managed to get up, and then the two robbers
fled the store. Thomas Wiley, who was fatally wounded by Foster's
bullet, was later found dead in a stolen car. Bernard Geddis, the
driver in the incident, was arrested on charges of second-degree
murder and attempted armed robbery. At press time, Taurean Brown was
being sought as the suspected second gunman.
Star Gazette, Elmira, N.Y., 11/11/04
State: NY
American Rifleman Issue: 11/1/2004
When a Windham Township, Penn., homeowner woke up and
discovered a burglar in his home, he acted quickly. The homeowner
grabbed a gun, and, when confronted by the intruder, shot him. The
wounded man fled, but was later found by police at a local hospital.
Dallas Morning News, Dallas, Tex., 11/29/04
State: TX
American Rifleman Issue: 11/1/2004
Seeing an armed man enter the Dallas, Tex., gas station that
had been the scene of prior robberies, a station attendant reacted
quickly, retrieving a gun. When the would-be robber aimed his gun at
him, the employee shot first, wounding his assailant in the side.
Police took the wounded suspect into custody, and believe that he may
have been responsible for several other robberies over the past month.
The San Francisco Chronicle, San Francisco, CA, 07/25/04
State: CA
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2004
An East Oakland, Calif., market employee thwarted a robbery
attempt at the 3M Market early one Saturday. The alleged robber,
identified as David Mosely, was wounded in his head and back and left
the store. Police were called to a nearby apartment to investigate a
call about a man covered in blood but did not locate the suspect when
they arrived. Mosely was arrested a short time later when he attempted
to steal a car. He was charged with attempted robbery and taken to the
hospital.
The Times, Munster, IN, 07/29/04
State: IN
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2004
James Shema, owner of Shema's Outdoor Sports in Merrillville,
Ind., knew immediately he was in a deadly situation. A man entered his
store with a sawed-off shotgun and ordered Shema, his wife, Kathy, and
three customers to drop to the floor. As Shema moved toward the floor,
he grabbed a .40-cal. handgun he kept behind the counter and fired two
shots at the robber. The wounded gunman fled the store and was soon
apprehended by authorities who found him bleeding in the back seat of
a nearby SUV. Shema said he just did what he had to do. "When he came
in here with a shotgun and no mask on his face I didn't think he
planned to leave survivors," Shema explained.
Muskegon Chronicle, Muskegon, Mich., 10/6/04
State: MI
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2004
Hearing noises in his Egelston Township, Mich., store, Michael
Moore wondered if an animal had gotten inside and went to investigate.
Instead, he found himself confronted by a burglar. Moore retrieved his
shotgun and fired once when the man refused to freeze. The wounded
intruder who was soon arrested. Muskegon County Prosecutor Tony Tague
ruled Moore acted in self-defense and would not be charged.
Jacksonville Times-Union, Jacksonville, Fla., 10/6/04
State: FL
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2004
When his Jacksonville, Fla., home was broken into by a butcher
knife-wielding intruder who demanded the keys to his car, Richard
Clark said the keys were in another room. When the invader began a
search for the keys, Clark was able to retrieve his .38-cal. revolver,
fire, and wounded the crook. Police soon arrested the intruder, saying
the suspect was linked to three prior burglaries.
Washington Times, Washington, D.C., 10/13/04
State: AL
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2004
A homeowner in Shelby, Ala., found four men breaking into his
home, so he retrieved a gun, fired and wounded one man. The four
burglars fled, and the wounded suspect was later taken to a hospital,
where he was taken into custody. It was later learned the man was one
of four inmates who had escaped from a Georgia prison.
Muncie Star Press, Muncie, Ind., 8/28/04
State: IN
American Rifleman Issue: 9/1/2004
When four masked men walked into the Prairie Creek Pawn Shop
in Muncie, Ind., owner Adam Kennedy knew that they weren't there to
conduct a normal transaction. When one of the robbers pulled out a
revolver and fired it at Kennedy, Kennedy returned fire with his own
handgun, wounding the gunman. The would-be robbers all fled. The
wounded suspect was dropped off at a hospital. He and two suspected
accomplices were soon apprehended.
The Town Talk, Alexandria, La., 6/21/04
State: LA
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2004
Tamer Abdulwahab and his cousin, Abdulwahab Zeidan, were at
the counter of the Alexandria, La., convenience store where they work
when a man came in and pulled out a gun. Abdulwahab stepped out of
sight and drew his gun. When the man fired at Zeidan, Abdulwahab
returned fire, striking the would-be robber twice. The fatally wounded
suspect fled.
Oakland Tribune, Oakland, California, 7/25/04
State: CA
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2004
When an armed robber entered a convenience store, his first
action was to order the clerk to hit the floor. Instead the clerk drew
a .38-caliber pistol and fired. The wounded would-be robber fled to
his car. An alert police officer later captured the suspect who was
taken to a hospital.
The Paris News, Paris, Tex., 7/27/04
State: TX
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2004
When three men seeking winnings from a day at a casino carried
out a home invasion in Paris, Tex., a victim used his wits to get what
he needed to protect himself. Convincing the robbers the money was at
his mother's house, he was taken to that location where he retrieved a
handgun. When a burglar alarm was activated, the bandits began firing.
Their would-be victim returned fire, hitting one of the men in the
hand. The trio fled, and a wounded suspect later turned himself in to
authorities.
The Indianapolis Star, Indianapolis, IN, 4/4/04
State: IN
American Rifleman Issue: 7/1/2004
George Finch, 75, was sleeping in his recliner when he heard
the sounds of glass breaking. Someone had broken a back window and was
now entering his home. Finch then got his gun and encountered the
interloper in his kitchen. "He stepped into the kitchen and he [the
intruder] was right there. My dad told him to stop," Finch's daughter,
Debbie Skaggs, recalls her father telling her. Finch told her the man
'just kept coming' so he fired one shot, hitting the would-be thief in
the leg. The wounded man, later identified by police as Kevin
Richardson, made his escape through the same window he had entered,
ran a short distance and collapsed. Richardson, who died shortly
thereafter, had a history of theft, trespass and prostitution arrests.
Los Angeles Times, Los Angeles, CA, 4/7/04
State: CA
American Rifleman Issue: 7/1/2004
Three armed men attempted to rob a jewelry store on East
Sepulveda Boulevard in Los Angeles. They confronted the storeowner
demanding jewels and cash. When they began shooting, the owner
returned fire, shooting one of the gunmen. The three fled the store,
but the wounded robber collapsed in a nearby market and died.
The Olympian, Olympia, Wash., 7/3/04
State: WA
American Rifleman Issue: 7/1/2004
A restraining order did not stop a series of threats and
vandalism directed at Rainier, Wash., resident Donald Skewis. When the
subject of the restraining order appeared on Skewis' property, armed
with a baseball bat and knife, Skewis ordered him to stop. When
instead the man continued advancing, Skewis fired his revolver and
mortally wounded the intruder.
Jefferson Post, West Jefferson, NC, 02/17/04
State: NC
American Rifleman Issue: 6/1/2004
Paul Ham and his son, Jimmy, entered a mobile home on their
property to repair a water leak for tenant Kevin Clark. As they walked
in, the Hams encountered a couple staying with Clark, William and
Kristina Tuell. William Tuell immediately began shooting at the Hams,
hitting the elder Ham in the head and shooting Jimmy Ham in the face.
Both Hams then ran for their house, with Tuell and his wife on their
heels. The attack continued in the Hams' home as Tuell and his wife
attempted to shoot the entire Ham family. Kristina Tuell was wrestled
to the ground by Ham's daughter, Sherry, but managed to escape. Though
wounded, Jimmy Ham finally managed to secure a gun and kill Tuell with
one shot. Kristina Tuell was later arrested after a massive manhunt
and faces multiple charges, including attempted murder and assault
with a deadly weapon.
Boston Herald, Boston, MA, 01/23/04
State: MA
American Rifleman Issue: 4/1/2004
A Somerville, Mass., resident had just stepped out of his
shower when he heard unusual sounds at the back of his house. When a
man broke through his back door, the homeowner retrieved a handgun,
confronted the intruder and shot him in the shoulder. The wounded
burglar ran from the house, but police were able to track him by
following a trail of blood to a nearby rail station. The suspect was
treated at a local hospital for the gunshot wound, and police were
expected to charge him with breaking and entering.
WOUNDED
The Kansas City Star, Kansas City, MO, 08/02/05
State: mo
American Rifleman Issue: 11/1/2005
A 66-year-old contract carrier for a Kansas City newspaper
still doesn't know what his attackers wanted, but he does know that
he's lucky to have been armed. His shift was just beginning at about 3
a.m., when four assailants sprinted toward him, forcing him back to
the safety of his van. But before the carrier could get away, the
biggest attacker, along with his three accomplices, began pummeling
the man through the driver-side window. During the ordeal, the van
drifted forward and slammed into a store, at which point the carrier
retrieved a .380-cal. handgun and fired three shots out his window,
causing the attackers to flee. Authorities were unsure if any of the
thugs were wounded. The carrier was left bruised and bleeding, but he
considered himself fortunate to be alive. "I thought these guys just
weren't going to let up," he said. "He intended to knock me out, maybe
leave me for dead. At that time, he'd get whatever he wanted."
The Times-Picayune, New Orleans, LA, 07/20/05
State: LA
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2005
When a young man showed up at Breaux's Jewelers in New Orleans
dressed as an old lady-complete with a walker, purse, gray wig and tan
dress-the ruse was good enough to get him buzzed inside. But
storeowner Mike Breaux quickly saw through the disguise and drew his
handgun just as police say the suspect started to pull a handgun out
of his purse and leap over the counter. Breaux fired, striking and
incapacitating the would-be robber. From outside, a second suspect
fired several shots through the glass front door as Breaux and one of
his employees, who had picked up the first suspect's gun, returned
fire. Breaux was grazed by a bullet before the wounded man fled with
yet another accomplice. The second suspect turned up at a hospital
later with gunshot wounds to his neck, back and arm. The first suspect
was taken from the store by ambulance. Both men were listed in
critical condition.
The News-Press, Fort Myers, FL, 06/07/05
State: FL
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2005
The two masked men who burst into a North Fort Myers, Fla.,
pharmacy demanding drugs didn't notice the pharmacy technician, who
was a concealed-weapons permit holder, crouched in the back. When one
robber leapt onto the countertop and waved a pistol at the clerk, the
technician took action, opening fire with a .45-cal. pistol and
hitting the armed man in the stomach. Both suspects fled the scene.
Police believed the wounded man was a career criminal with 14 felony
convictions since 1990 who was released from prison in January. "I
knew for sure this guy was going to kill me," the technician said. "I
was so afraid. I knew if I died, [the clerk] was going to die."
Las Vegas Sun, Las Vegas, NV, 12/24/04
State: NV
American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2005
A restraining order did not prevent a woman's ex-boyfriend
from kicking down the front door of her Sparks, Nev., apartment at
2:40 a.m. The man proceeded to attack a co-worker of the woman with a
metal lamp, injuring him. The assailant then turned his attention to
the woman, but the co-worker retrieved a handgun and fatally wounded
the intruder.
Houston Chronicle, Houston, TX, 01/05/05
State: TX
American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2005
Early one morning, three men forced their way into a Houston,
Tex., house and opened fire on the family. The husband raced to the
bedroom, retrieved his own gun, and returned fire. One of the
intruders was critically wounded, and the other two fled the scene.
jf...@ix.netcom.com
<tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>Jim Alder wrote:
>> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in
>> news:7ngbrnF...@mid.individual.net:
>>
>>> ...., against a surprise attack?
>>>
>>> http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffee-shop-
>> ambush-20091130-jz3t.html?autostart=1
>>>
>>> Not very, it seems.
>>
>> No, but then nothing does.
>
>**Exactly. Guns, as a self defence item, are pretty much useless. A bullet
>proof vest would be more useful, but you don't see the NRA bleating about
>that. I wonder why?
>
>>
>> I always get a kick out of gun phobics
>
>**"gun phobics"? What do you mean? I'm not afraid of guns. They do not
>concern me one bit. What does concern me is the attempts by idiots to weaken
>our strong gun control laws.
>
> like you who can find an
>> isolated incident where a gun didn't help and say that says guns are
>> unnecessary, but gun control NEVER works and you still push for it.
>
>**I can find a few more, if you wish. Here in Australia, we've had several
>(armed) police officers who were shot to death by armed assailants. We've
>also seen the murder of a couple of dozen (presumably armed) criminals by
>other criminals in surprise attacks.
>
>OTOH, gun control laws have coincided with a massive fall in the incidence
>of mass murder here in Australia. Sensible gun control laws appear to work
>and work very well.
And you would have preferred to see all these people dead:
jf...@ix.netcom.com
<tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>"Jim Alder" <jima...@ssnet.com> wrote in message
>news:Xns9CD2E6B5B4C6B...@216.196.97.142...
>> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>> Jim Alder wrote:
>>>> "Trevor Wilson" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ...., against a surprise attack?
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.smh.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffee-shop-
>>>>> ambush-20091130-jz3t.html?autostart=1
>>>>>
>>>>> Not very, it seems.
>>>>
>>>> No, but then nothing does.
>>>
>>> **Exactly. Guns, as a self defence item, are pretty much useless.
>>
>> ROTFLMAO!!! You really should have read the rest of my reply before
>> saying
>> something so stupid.
>
>**Just stating fact.
>
>>
>>> A bullet proof vest would be more useful, but you don't see
>>> the NRA bleating about that. I wonder why?
>>
>> Because they aren't the National Bulletproof Vest Association. And what
>> would they 'bleat' about?
>
>**The NRA has bleated about guns being used as self defence equipment yet
>they ignore bullet proof vests.
>
> Cops already wear vests. They try not to talk too
>> much about it because then the bad guys tend to shoot for the head.
>>
>>>> I always get a kick out of gun phobics
>>>
>>> **"gun phobics"? What do you mean? I'm not afraid of guns.
>>
>> Sure ya are.
>
>**Prove it.
>
> That's why you're lying about them now and misrepresenting
>> this tragedy as a typical "self-defense" situation.
>
>**Relating a news item is not lying. In your twisted imagination, perhaps,
>but not here in the real world.
>
>>
>>> They do not concern me one bit.
>>
>> Yeah, right, Trevor. Sure they don't.
>
>**Good. I'm pleased we have established that.
>
>>
>>> What does concern me is the attempts by idiots to weaken
>>> our strong gun control laws.
>>
>> Guns don't concern you one bit, but you're worried the laws might be
>> changed that control them?
>
>**Of course. Allowing idiots, drunks, drug addicts and criminals easy access
>to guns is bad public policy. It is a bad policy that the US has embraced
>for decades.
>
>>
>> I'm speechless. Good thing I'm typing! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
>>
>>>> like you who can find an
>>>> isolated incident where a gun didn't help and say that says guns are
>>>> unnecessary, but gun control NEVER works and you still push for it.
>>>
>>> **I can find a few more, if you wish.
>>
>> I can find you a thousand where they came in handy defending innocent
>> lives.
>
>**Good. I'll make it easy for you. List 10 (TEN) DGUs which have occured on
>any one day in the US. Those DGUs need to be verified by reputable news
>reports and/or police or FBI reports.
>
>Alternatively, how difficult do you think it would be for me to locate 10
>reports of homicide, via gunshot on any one day in the US (Particularly,
>given the FBI reports an average of 27 per day)?
>
How about these?
Jim Alder
Since it's not my cite or my statistic, I am only guessing, but since it's
on SPOT CRIME DOT COM, I would have to assume they were at least criminals
AFTER shooting.
Jim Alder
Same here, I'd think, but I guarantee they would find ME from the
mugger's description in five minutes. So I'd report any DGU.
> coupla months ago,-I- got stopped by an officer who said I resembled a bank
> robbery suspect....while on a bicycle,noon on a Saturday.I gave him my ID
> and CWP,he didn't even look at the gun permit.THEN he had me lift my
> sunglasses....??? I doubt he had any idea of what the actual suspect looked
> like.
I always thought they did the sunglass thing to see if your eyes indicated
you were on drugs. Or maybe in this case the bank robber had blue eyes or
something and you didn't.
>> Even with a CCW, you will have a lot of explaining to do.
>> Besides, if you chase a mugger away with your gun, I doubt the cops
>> would want more than a description, unless they catch him, in which
>> case I'd be glad to go down and ID him. Wouldn't you?
>
> I've done IDs for simple thievery,twice.
> I described a SILVER pickup truck towing a alum.box trailer,and the cops
> stopped a -black- PU towing a box trailer and drove me over there to ID it.
> (same clueless PD.)
While in Texas I lived in a less than sterling neighborhood for a while.
Someone broke in one night and made a run for it when I came home from 3-11
shift. I didn't even notice someone had broken in until the morning. They got
three guns from my closet (my early days of gun collecting) including a very
nice Winchester carbine in 45 LC. The cops came and asked a few questions.
Called me in a week and said 'we got nothing and wondered if you heard
anything.' I had promised the kid next door a C note if he could tell me
enough to get my stuff back. He told me it was his sister's boyfriend and a
couple guys down the street and told me where. I told the cops the same thing,
with names, and the cops said "Is that So-and-so's son?" I said I didn't know.
Apparently that would have been the clincher, because I never heard back from
them.
>>> Nor would news organizations air any report of such occurrences made
>>> to them.
>>
>> That's true. Effective use of a gun in self defense is about as
>> welcome to the media as it is to Hollywood.
>>
>>> He stubbornly refuses to acknowledege that these incidents are STILL
>>> valid DGUs,since it was the appearance of a gun in the victim's hands
>>> that caused the criminal to turn and flee,-preventing- the attack.
>>
>> Of course! In their eyes, if you don't actually SHOOT someone, you
>> didn't really USE the gun.
>
> it's the same tactic as the "developed world" qualification for their anti-
> gun claims.Trying to narrow things down,make their numbers or argument look
> better.
Oh, is that what he meant by 'developed'? They have better gun laws?
>>> many people would rather not shoot and have the threat flee,than to
>>> shoot and then endure the lengthy police questioning,the potential
>>> legal liabilities,and bear the psychological costs of having to
>>> seriously harm another person.
>>
>> Many people? I would think that would be a consensus among
>> mentally healthy people.
>
> I still feel bad that the guys who tried to steal my Integra one night,that
> I -didn't- shoot(came REAL close to capping the driver),had already stolen
> my neighbors radio and wrecked his steering column,and a coupla years
> later, came back and DID steal my car.
Years? It's possible it was someone else the second time. They often come
back - they came back to break in my place again, but this time I had made it
more difficult. They weren't exactly rocket surgeons. But when you point a gun
at them, they come back less often.
> I also think of all the other people victimized by those thieves after my
> run-in with them. F-ing car thieves.
> It would have been a clean shoot,too.
>
> but they didn't call police about me brandishing my handgun....
They don't always. Especially when it's in your own driveway.
--
My girlfriend asked me "Have you been having
sex behind my back?"
I said "Who in the hell did you think it was?"
Jim Yanik
> Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov> wrote:
>>
>> it's the same tactic as the "developed world" qualification for their
>> anti- gun claims.Trying to narrow things down,make their numbers or
>> argument look better.
>
> Oh, is that what he meant by 'developed'? They have better gun
> laws?
He's trying to filter out all the stuff that makes his position irrational
and thus ridiculous.
It's also kinda elitist.
>
>>>> many people would rather not shoot and have the threat flee,than to
>>>> shoot and then endure the lengthy police questioning,the potential
>>>> legal liabilities,and bear the psychological costs of having to
>>>> seriously harm another person.
>>>
>>> Many people? I would think that would be a consensus among
>>> mentally healthy people.
>>
>> I still feel bad that the guys who tried to steal my Integra one
>> night,that I -didn't- shoot(came REAL close to capping the
>> driver),had already stolen my neighbors radio and wrecked his
>> steering column,and a coupla years later, came back and DID steal my
>> car.
>
> Years? It's possible it was someone else the second time. They
> often come
> back - they came back to break in my place again, but this time I had
> made it more difficult. They weren't exactly rocket surgeons. But when
> you point a gun at them, they come back less often.
well,there were a few attempts made prior to my car finally being
stolen,about every 3-4 months.
I had my alarm go off a couple of times and when I ran out(armed),a car was
driving off quickly.and the -time- these incidents happened were all at
nearly the same times.(3 in the afternoon and 3AM.)
They KNEW I was armed and quick to come out.
I had been installing more anti-theft devices,just didn't get to the fuel
cutoff relay yet,because it involved removing the rear seat,BIG project.
And that's the one that would have stopped them. ;-(
I had already installed a shield to keep them from "hooking" the hood
latch,and rerouted the latch cable to inside the engine compartment.
(Hondas run the hood latch cable thru the wheelwell,where they just pull
out the plastic well liner and cut the cable,yank it,and quickly cut the
alarm wires once the hood is opened.I know a girl who had that done to her
Integra.
>
>> I also think of all the other people victimized by those thieves
>> after my run-in with them. F-ing car thieves.
>> It would have been a clean shoot,too.
>>
>> but they didn't call police about me brandishing my handgun....
>
> They don't always. Especially when it's in your own driveway.
apartment parking lot....gated community,too.
gates are worthless if not manned.My complex has 2-3 video cameras on each
gate,too,but the morons in the office couldnt give police a copy,and
wouldn't let ME look at the video.We could have gotten a plate number from
the car that held the gate open when they left.They got thru it too fast
for it to be any other way.
3 days later,the police called,told me they found my car 2 counties
away,stripped and torched.
Bama Brian
I have no idea as it was not stated in the report. However it was a
crime report, so take your conclusions from that. Or are you confused
by the idea of a crime report?
Jeers,
Billy Cox
> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> Australians are legally allowed to own firearms.
> I have no idea as it was not stated in the report. However it was a
> crime report, so take your conclusions from that. Or are you confused
> by the idea of a crime report?
>
> Jeers,
> Bama Brian
Trevor is only "slightly" correct with that last statement.
Sure, "some" Asstralians can possibly own the cheapest of small caliber
crap made, but NO one there can buy a firearm specifically for self defense.
" For each firearm a "Genuine Reason" must be given, relating to pest
control, hunting, target shooting, or collecting. Self-defense is not
accepted as a reason for issuing a licence, though it may be legal under
certain circumstances to use a legally-held firearm for self-defence."
^^^
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia
Meaning you "may be legal" to use one for self defense, but a city
dweller would be hard pressed to prove he has a pest control problem, or
does hunting in the city.
Jim Alder
> Jim Alder <jima...@ssnet.com> wrote:
>> Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov> wrote:
>
>>> it's the same tactic as the "developed world" qualification for their
>>> anti- gun claims.Trying to narrow things down,make their numbers or
>>> argument look better.
>>
>> Oh, is that what he meant by 'developed'? They have better gun
>> laws?
>
> He's trying to filter out all the stuff that makes his position irrational
> and thus ridiculous.
Cut the guy a break. It's not easy dealing with the fact you are so afraid
of your fellow man that you're willing to give up your freedom and everyone
else's.
> It's also kinda elitist.
Kinda? He thinks Australia is 'more developed' than the US!
>>>>> many people would rather not shoot and have the threat flee,than to
>>>>> shoot and then endure the lengthy police questioning,the potential
>>>>> legal liabilities,and bear the psychological costs of having to
>>>>> seriously harm another person.
>>>>
>>>> Many people? I would think that would be a consensus among
>>>> mentally healthy people.
>>>
>>> I still feel bad that the guys who tried to steal my Integra one
>>> night,that I -didn't- shoot(came REAL close to capping the
>>> driver),had already stolen my neighbors radio and wrecked his
>>> steering column,and a coupla years later, came back and DID steal my
>>> car.
>>
>> Years? It's possible it was someone else the second time. They often come
>> back - they came back to break in my place again, but this time I had
>> made it more difficult. They weren't exactly rocket surgeons. But when
>> you point a gun at them, they come back less often.
>
> well,there were a few attempts made prior to my car finally being
> stolen,about every 3-4 months.
> I had my alarm go off a couple of times and when I ran out(armed), a car was
> driving off quickly.and the -time- these incidents happened were all at
> nearly the same times.(3 in the afternoon and 3AM.)
> They KNEW I was armed and quick to come out.
They sound like slow learners, so maybe you're right.
> I had been installing more anti-theft devices,just didn't get to the fuel
> cutoff relay yet,because it involved removing the rear seat,BIG project.
> And that's the one that would have stopped them. ;-(
>
> I had already installed a shield to keep them from "hooking" the hood
> latch,and rerouted the latch cable to inside the engine compartment.
> (Hondas run the hood latch cable thru the wheelwell,where they just pull
> out the plastic well liner and cut the cable,yank it,and quickly cut the
> alarm wires once the hood is opened.I know a girl who had that done to her
> Integra.
Well, I guess the silver lining here is, even if it's stolen, it was only
a Honda. <g>
(Sorry, couldn't resist. That comes from decades of motorcycle riding.)
>>> I also think of all the other people victimized by those thieves
>>> after my run-in with them. F-ing car thieves.
>>> It would have been a clean shoot,too.
>>>
>>> but they didn't call police about me brandishing my handgun....
>>
>> They don't always. Especially when it's in your own driveway.
>
> apartment parking lot....gated community,too.
Tomato, tomato. "I was in this guy's parking space and he pulled a gun on
me and robbed me!" wouldn't get them far with the cops.
> gates are worthless if not manned.My complex has 2-3 video cameras on each
> gate,too,but the morons in the office couldnt give police a copy,and
> wouldn't let ME look at the video.We could have gotten a plate number from
> the car that held the gate open when they left.They got thru it too fast
> for it to be any other way.
They COULDN'T give the cops a copy? What do they have the video system
there for? I would suspect an inside job, not knowing anything more than I do.
I would think keeping it from the cops could get them charged with
obstruction.
> 3 days later,the police called,told me they found my car 2 counties
> away,stripped and torched.
That is a bummer.
Scout
> Jim Alder <jima...@ssnet.com> wrote in
> news:Xns9CD4DDA18B04j...@216.196.97.142:
>
>> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>
>>> **Good. I'll make it easy for you. List 10 (TEN) DGUs which have
>>> occured on any one day in the US. Those DGUs need to be verified by
>>> reputable news reports and/or police or FBI reports.
>>
>> How is that easy for me? I don't care that they happen on the same
>> day and
>> I doubt they do, either.
>
>
> Trevor is again being dishonest,as he only accepts DGUs that have been
Oh, Trevor is most certainly being dishonest here, because even he has
stated that should someone actually supply the requested data he would
ignore it since it would only establish a rate of about 36,500 cases per
year and that isn't the number he is looking to have supported. No what he
wants is someone to actually document each and every case of DGU that occurs
in a year, and even then I suspect he will claim it only happened that year.
So, yes, Trevor is being dishonest because he's asking for data to support
something when he already knows he will ignore that data even if supplied
exactly as requested.
aezael
wrote:
What's a wepon and how does it work ?