Another Ignorant Police Chief
Buck Mulligan
"POLICE Chief Christine Nixon has warned semi-automatic guns could
pose a serious safety risk to her officers. Ms Nixon defended the
force's failure to arm officers with semi-automatic guns, saying she
had seen police in other states shot with their own weapons.
"Her warning came as the police union said it will seek legal advice
about whether force command has been negligent by failing to issue the
upgraded weapons."
Semi-autos have only been available for 100 years or more- maybe she
wants to wait until the technology has matured...
John-Melb
reply when this was raised at aus.politics.guns
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm going to disagree with you on this, I think the Victoria Police
are better served keeping their wheel guns.
If they get automatics and still claim to be outgunned by the
criminal
element, what's next, MP5's on our streets as we regularly see in
parts of Britain?
If the Victoria Police spent more time tracking down how the
criminals
are getting their auto's and less time keeping records on antiques
held by licenced collectors, they might not be pleading for more
firepower..
What "clumsy reloading issues" are there with a Smith? Prior to the
last "Buyback" I regularly shot APSM (Australian Police and Services
Match). The 7 metre detail of this event required three shots into
one
target, three shots into a second target, a reload, and repeat of the
two three shot strings, in 12 seconds. I aways put mine into the 9
ring (with some in the X ring) and was normally finished in under 10
seconds, using a K frame Smith and I never got above C grade in this
event. If serving Victoria Police are describing the reloading of a
Model 10 with a speedloader as "clumsy", then there's something very
wrong with their training.
You're friend claims "we've lost numerous police in the past", can he
name one who'se demise was due to some fault with the Model 10 Smith?
Can he name one who would have been still alive today if he was
carrying a Glock?
I think the call for Glocks by the Police Association has more to do
with "keeping up with the Joneses", toys for the boys, and power,
than
safety of operational Police members. Why aren't we hearing the
Police
Association calling for standard issue of reliable covert ballistic
vests? The Police members involved in the shooting the other night
would have been much better served if they had access to a shotgun,
why isn't the Police Association calling for all operational Police
vehicles to be issued with a pump gun?
Buck Mulligan
>On this one Buck, we must agree to disagree, reproduced below is my
>reply when this was raised at aus.politics.guns
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>I'm going to disagree with you on this, I think the Victoria Police
>are better served keeping their wheel guns.
>
>If they get automatics and still claim to be outgunned by the
>criminal
>element, what's next, MP5's on our streets as we regularly see in
>parts of Britain?
There will always be a "semi-auto v. revolver- which is best"
argument. That being said...
As a police officer, I would want to be armed. And I would want to be
armed with a safe, reliable weapon with the features I needed. A
revolver doesn't have those features.
A S&W Model 10 carries 6 shots and has about 86 parts according to
e-gun parts list; A S&W Model M&P 40 carries 15 shots and has 42 parts
according to the S&W parts list.
It's nice that you can place six rounds in a 1/2 inch as a hundred
yards or whatever. In combat, I predict those scores would suffer
somewhat. That's when more capacity comes in handy.
With regards to police arming themselves with MP-5's, I don't see what
the problem is there.
John-Melb
best and safest duty firearms to the Victoria Police.
I don't see a firearm which offers the option of "spray and pray" or
"suppressing fire" as a safe option in Victoria today. An auto may
indeed be a suitable weapon for Police issue in some jurisdictions, it
is probably the best weapon for certain "specialist" Police duties, or
in rural areas where an officer often works alone.
Accuracy on the two way range is never as good as accuracy on the
practice range, however in the incident under discussion, the first
six shots the officer fired went wide of the intended target, this is
near to a very busy public road, If he had an auto, maybe the first
fifteen shots he fired woud have gone wide, thus greatly increasing
the chance of hitting an innocent bystander.
At various times over the past twentyfive years, I've had to carry
both a revolver and an auto as a "duty weapon", and given the current
levels of training and firearms familiarity in the Victoria Police, I
simply don't consider a high capacity auto suitable for standard
issue.
Sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree.
Bert Hyman
news:d45af8df-c8ae-4a2b...@f24g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
> If they get automatics and still claim to be outgunned by the
> criminal ...
Any particular reason why you're directing your comments to automatic
weapons, when the original statement was clearly about semi-autos?
"POLICE Chief Christine Nixon has warned semi-automatic guns could
pose a serious safety risk to her officers. ..."
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | be...@iphouse.com
Buck Mulligan
>It's not a semi versus revolver arguement, it's about providing the
>best and safest duty firearms to the Victoria Police.
In that case it's semi-auto hands down. :>
>I don't see a firearm which offers the option of "spray and pray" or
>"suppressing fire" as a safe option in Victoria today.
That's not the choice of the weapon. That's the choice of the officer.
>An auto may
>indeed be a suitable weapon for Police issue in some jurisdictions, it
>is probably the best weapon for certain "specialist" Police duties, or
>in rural areas where an officer often works alone.
Exactly. In my opinion, it should be up to the officer. Why force an
officer to use a weapon he's not comfortable with? That's more insane
than blanket condemnation of a type of hand gun.
>Accuracy on the two way range is never as good as accuracy on the
>practice range, however in the incident under discussion, the first
>six shots the officer fired went wide of the intended target, this is
>near to a very busy public road, If he had an auto, maybe the first
>fifteen shots he fired woud have gone wide, thus greatly increasing
>the chance of hitting an innocent bystander.
We can only guess. But since pro-revolver people will tell you how
fast they can reload their wheel gun, it's probably a moot point.
>At various times over the past twentyfive years, I've had to carry
>both a revolver and an auto as a "duty weapon", and given the current
>levels of training and firearms familiarity in the Victoria Police, I
>simply don't consider a high capacity auto suitable for standard
>issue.
If the chief's statements are even half true, that what you're both
saying seems to be that the police need more training. Always a good
thing.
In my opinion, if they're hurting themselves with semi-autos, I
wouldn't want to be around them with revolvers, either. You can't hurt
yourself with a semi-auto unless you're forgetting very basic gun
safety.
>Sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree.
That's OK John. Like I said, this is an issue that will never be
"decided" or "won." It's mostly a matter of personal preference.
John-Melb
> mcnamara_j...@hotmail.com (John-Melb) wrote innews:d45af8df-c8ae-4a2b...@f24g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
>
> > If they get automatics and still claim to be outgunned by the
> > criminal ...
>
> Any particular reason why you're directing your comments to automatic
> weapons, when the original statement was clearly about semi-autos?
>
> "POLICE Chief Christine Nixon has warned semi-automatic guns could
> pose a serious safety risk to her officers. ..."
>
> --
Poor wording on my part,sorry, and yes, I'm talking about semi-auto's
Bert Hyman
news:6bdbb516-a228-48f7...@k1g2000prb.googlegroups.com:
> On May 16, 12:13 am, Bert Hyman <b...@iphouse.com> wrote:
>> mcnamara_j...@hotmail.com (John-Melb) wrote
>> innews:d45af8df-c8ae-4a2b-9dae
> -903552...@f24g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> > If they get automatics and still claim to be outgunned by the
>> > criminal ...
>>
>> Any particular reason why you're directing your comments to
>> automatic weapons, when the original statement was clearly about
>> semi-autos?
>>
>> "POLICE Chief Christine Nixon has warned semi-automatic guns could
>> pose a serious safety risk to her officers. ..."
>
> Poor wording on my part,sorry, and yes, I'm talking about
> semi-auto's
Oh? Then what am I to make of "spray and pray" and this?
"If he had an auto, maybe the first fifteen shots he fired
woud have gone wide, thus greatly increasing the chance of
hitting an innocent bystander."
And, I like the "maybe" bit too.
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | be...@iphouse.com
John-Melb
matter that I would agree with.
Herb Martin
"Buck Mulligan" <bkmul...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:sebo249f6bok2bno9...@4ax.com...
> http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23702123-2862,00.html
>
> "POLICE Chief Christine Nixon has warned semi-automatic guns could
> pose a serious safety risk to her officers. Ms Nixon defended the
> force's failure to arm officers with semi-automatic guns, saying she
> had seen police in other states shot with their own weapons.
I wonder why she doesn't just take their firearms away from them
altogether, since clearly they can be shot with their own revolver
as easily (perhaps MORE easily) than with a semi.
Wayne
shouldn't need anything beyond a sharp stick. :)
Bert Hyman
news:5iYWj.17861$%X1.8562@trnddc08:
>> she wants to wait until the technology has matured...
>
> Besides that....if the general population cannot own handguns, the
> cops shouldn't need anything beyond a sharp stick. :)
Hey! You could put somebody's eye out!
Birdog
"Bert Hyman" <be...@iphouse.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A9F66D593F...@127.0.0.1...
Uh--------- a simi-auto is one which fires each time you pull the trigger.
The S&W mentioned here fires each time you pull the trigger.
Therefore ----------.
OK, I know. I'm just pulling your chain-------------------------
Benj
Buck Mulligan wrote:
> There will always be a "semi-auto v. revolver- which is best"
> argument. That being said...
Been going on ever since the days when all police had revolvers...
> As a police officer, I would want to be armed. And I would want to be
> armed with a safe, reliable weapon with the features I needed. A
> revolver doesn't have those features.
Maybe for you, but what about the "average" cop on the street? What
kind of "features" do you find desirable for police? Ability to fire
hundreds of rounds a minute in full auto mode? Ability to penetrate
several wood frame homes with a single round? Ability to penetrate
body armor? Ability to jam and require some knowledge and skill to
clear the jam? No doubt a revolver doesn't have those features, but
I'd raise the point here as others already have that these are NOT the
features you'd want the average cop to have for normal duties. These
are features needed to perpetrate a Gestapo in a police state where
police are "militarized" and people totally disarmed. The "normal"
function of police in a reasonably free society is to catch suspected
perpetrators and take them to court for trial. The "normal" function
is NOT to kill people! Of course it's clear that there are those in
this newsgroup that do prefer the police state, such as in the Yoo
Kay, but most of us on this side of the pond do not. We told the
British authorities to go pound salt up their ass a long time ago (and
if the Englishmen over their had any hairs on their ass they'd be
doing the same thing right now).
> A S&W Model 10 carries 6 shots and has about 86 parts according to
> e-gun parts list; A S&W Model M&P 40 carries 15 shots and has 42 parts
> according to the S&W parts list.
Revolvers nevertheless are simpler to operate and almost never fail
(obviously they are mechanical devices and all mechanical devices can
fail), and if maintained they fail less often than semi-autos which
can jam). They also don't require a brain to operate. They don't
need a 'safety" and don't have weird things like the Glock "trigger"
safety. This is important. Sure there are cops out there who love guns
like some of the people here do. They are knowledgeable and skilled
and would find a semi-auto a fine firearm for police use [Pro-gunners:
Please develop a little political savvy and start using the word
"firearm" instead of the word "weapon"!] A semi-auto is fine for
them. But for a great many cops, carrying a gun is a large heavy pain
in the butt. They don't like it, and only do it because they must, and
practice just enough to pass qualification if at all and barely know
how to operate it let alone clean it. These guys, many of your
"average Joe" cops (who are often excellent cops, by the way) are the
argument that has long been made for revolvers as police sidearms.
No doubt a "fine tuned" semi-auto can be quite reliable. Mine
virtually never jams. But It's been so finely tweeked that it will
feed empty brass. Why? Because I figure one day my life might depend
on its reliable operation. But is that going to be the case for some
city-issue "duty gun" supplied by the lowest bidder? Will the cop
carrying it even care? The part about his life depending on it one day
may still be true, but the rest probably won't.
> It's nice that you can place six rounds in a 1/2 inch as a hundred
> yards or whatever. In combat, I predict those scores would suffer
> somewhat. That's when more capacity comes in handy.
OH sure. Local bank robbery shootout with police: 100 rounds fired
total. NOBODY even grazed by a bullet! Just HOW much "extra capacity"
you think it will take? Just HOW many bullets do you want whizzing
around the neighborhood "gunning down" little girls the way it happens
in the "projects"? That your idea of the "good life"? And when the
gun jams at the first shot (because you didn't bother to clean or oil
it and your grip changed because of the tension of self-defense) then
what does that "extra capacity" get you? Dead. And by the way, Buck,
police don't engage in "combat"! Contrary to your ideas, their
function is to arrest people and bring them to court alive. The
police are not a military squad although there is great pressure to
convert them into that.
This whole idea of police being "out-gunned" is nothing but more media
anti-gun bullshit! CIA assassins kill people just fine with .22s.
Police are supposed to have the skills and training to deal with even
armed criminals. Plus they have the numbers and backup to provide
extra firepower if needed and in cases where more force is required
there are special police teams trained and equipped to deal with more
extreme cases. So just what purpose is served by police armed to the
teeth as they write traffic tickets? Perhaps this makes sense in
Israel which is basically at war with terrorists. But is it justified
for ordinary police here today?
> With regards to police arming themselves with MP-5's, I don't see what
> the problem is there.
Of course you don't, Buck. Bullets spraying around neighborhoods
gunning down innocent mothers and children is your idea of a good
time! The police as a military organization is your idea of the
future of American law enforcement. But then I'm sure you always did
love a nice snappy uniform all starched and pressed with shiny
polished jackboots and skull insignia gleaming in the sunlight!
PS. My opinion is that the choice of "duty firearm" ought to be left
up to the individual officer to decide what is best for them
personally. A city one size fits all "policy" seems stupid to me.
[Although there are parts stocking, repair issues and cost savings
from larger quantities]
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
>> Poor wording on my part,sorry, and yes, I'm talking about
>> semi-auto's
>
> Oh? Then what am I to make of "spray and pray" and this?
>
> "If he had an auto, maybe the first fifteen shots he fired
> woud have gone wide, thus greatly increasing the chance of
> hitting an innocent bystander."
>
> And, I like the "maybe" bit too.
Why does it take the NYPD 50+ shots to bring down a suspect? It seems the
safest place to be is in their sights. God help the rest of the neighborhood.
--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
>> Besides that....if the general population cannot own handguns, the
>> cops shouldn't need anything beyond a sharp stick. :)
>
> Hey! You could put somebody's eye out!
You bet I can, Mom! <Loud OW!! heard offstage>
Buck Mulligan
>On this one Buck, we must agree to disagree, reproduced below is my
>reply when this was raised at aus.politics.guns
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>I'm going to disagree with you on this, I think the Victoria Police
>are better served keeping their wheel guns.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/7404740.stm#
Check out picture #3- that ain't no wheel gun. ;>
RD (The Sandman)
3a7aeb...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
>> A S&W Model 10 carries 6 shots and has about 86 parts according to
>> e-gun parts list; A S&W Model M&P 40 carries 15 shots and has 42 parts
>> according to the S&W parts list.
>
> Revolvers nevertheless are simpler to operate and almost never fail
> (obviously they are mechanical devices and all mechanical devices can
> fail), and if maintained they fail less often than semi-autos which
> can jam). They also don't require a brain to operate. They don't
> need a 'safety" and don't have weird things like the Glock "trigger"
> safety. This is important.
One of the reasons I carry a revolver is that it is purely a PHD (Pull
Here, Dummy) weapon that I can count on in a fight. It may only have 5
rounds but if I need more than that, I am in deeper shit than I can
probably claw my way out of. Of course, I sometimes also have my Arizona
reloader with me. That's a back up Taurus 85.
--
RD (The Sandman)
War is absolute hell.....but to give in
to terrorism is much, much worse
RSweeney
Depends, if their police are as careless and stupid as the police in
Washington DC, she could be saving a lot of lives - of police, their family
members, and the citizens they would negligently shoot.
John-Melb
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/7404740.stm#
>
> Check out picture #3- that ain't no wheel gun. ;>
Weren't taken in Melbourne, either. ;)
John-Melb
==================================================
Name: Doug
From: Perth, WA
Date: 16-May-2008
Comment: I'll bet my leftie that any review will show that there have
been more
coppers injured or killed by AD's from their "idiot-proof" Glocks with
the
"Safe-T" trigger than have ever shot themselves or someone else with
a
revolver. I never knew a gun battle that required more than 6 shots
that
wasn't influenced by other factors, that suggested the cops were
under-gunned. Half the reason behind the move to plastic fantastics
was the
weight reduction as modern OH&S crap suggested the coppers were
getting a
bit of a lean to the holster side and a spinal scoliosis.
As far as reloading speed goes, I have videos of guys shooting 6
rounds and
loading a revolver in under 2 seconds. Going by the police with Glocks
I've
shot against or RO'd in shoots, most of them dropped their mags in a
tactical reload anyway. In any event, it's got less to do with the gun
that
with training and discipline under fire.
If I was a cop, I'd still have my Model 29, despite its weight, in
preference to a Glock any day - and yes I do still love my 1911A1
0.45ACP
too.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
message #1126
Name: Rick
From: Melbourne
Date: 16-May-2008
Comment: John,
I think you're spot on. A revolver is the ideal Police Firearm.
ie. A gun that you can give to amateurs whilst minimising their
chances of
shooting themselves or anyone else unintentionally. ie. you need to
give
the trigger a definite pull to make it work.
There have been more coppers killed by accidental discharges from semi-
autos
than might have ever been "saved" by their issue.
As you also note pump action shotguns are a very worthwhile
consideration if
they were serious about the safety of their members rather than just
"keeping up with the Joneses".
Cheers,
Rick
Buck Mulligan
The BBC changed the link. How about this?
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44663000/jpg/_44663273_cobra_ap_466.jpg
Officers of Austria's special police unit Cobra display their skills
ahead of the Euro 2008 football championships.
Thomas
<SNIP>
Here's something I posted about this matter on another group
==========================================================
Chris, I am amazed that you would post such babble here, I'm even
more
amazed that John would enter into reasoned debate on this subject.
I think members of the Victoria Police hae got "more front than
Myers"
posting requests for assistance on forums populated by gun owners.
They are one of the most "anti-gun" organistions in the bloody
country. On a number of occaisions the Victoria Police have exceeded
the provisions of the Firearms Act in an attempt further restrict
lawfull gun ownership in Victoria.
In the late nineties the Firearms Appeals Committee discovered that
the Victoria Police were applying the "Genuine need" provisions of
the
Firearms Act to Category A firearms in an attempt to restrict gun
ownership. "Genuine Need" is only relevant to Category B firearms
according to the Firearms Act.
The Victoria Police Firearms Registry are still pursuing collectors
"demanding" that they "declare" antique guns which the law says is
not
subject to the Act. This is no more than a defacto registration
sytem.
The Victoria Police "Weapons Identification System" lists original
percussion muzzleloading shotguns as "Category A" firearms despite
the
fact the Firearms Act says they're not.
In 1996, when anti-gun lobby groups staged protests in Melbourne
demanding even tighter gun laws, who marched in their front rank to
Parliament House, none other than Danny Walshe, then Secretary of the
Victoria Police Assocaition.
Now they're coming to us asking for ssistance becauser they want
semi-
auto's, well I want the Mossberg shotgun a Victorian "copper" took
off
me in 1996 back, are they going to help me?
I visited the site - and voted NO, I've also asked a number of
friends
to likewise and to spread the word. They "sink the slipper" into us
at
every and any opportunity - screw them!
===================================================
Often try to drum up suppot for anti-gun "thugs with badges" like the
Victoria Police do you Buck?
Would you try to drum up support for a Brady Bunch campaign? because
they're almost as "anti" as the Victoria Police.