The gun goofball philosophy ;-)
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
he he he...
The gun goofball philosophy:
A sharp pencil can kill as *many* people as an assault rifle.
A sharp pencil can kill as *surely* as an assault rifle.
A sharp pencil can kill as *easily* as an assault rifle.
If guns did not exist there would be 30,000 sharp pencil murders every year.
;-)
Jim Austin
wrote:
The outlook opposing gun control is an outlook that legitimizes and
validates the right of self defense.
Not the case with those pushing gun control.
Mr. Albritton
> A sharp pencil can kill as *surely* as an assault rifle.
> A sharp pencil can kill as *easily* as an assault rifle.
>
> If guns did not exist there would be 30,000 sharp pencil murders every
> year.
Guns PROTECT 2.5 MILLION lives every year.
This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often
to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.
http://gunowners.org/fs0404.htm
Yep. I'll keep my gun.
You can keep the sharpened pencil.
Firelock
Note that the US murder sprees with the highest body counts
didn't involve guns at all. Humans, when they don't have access
to an easy tool for a job, can be frightfully creative about
other options - and disarming law-abiding citizens has little
effect on the actions of criminals.
Bath School Murders
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster
45 deaths, no guns involved.
Happy Land Murders
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Land
87 deaths, no guns involved.
Oklahoma City Murders
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing
168 deaths, no guns involved.
September 11th, 2001 Murders
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11%2C_2001_attacks
Almost 3000 deaths, no guns involved.
In comparison, the shooting spree with the highest number
of deaths was:
Virginia Tech Murders
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre
32 deaths involving guns
--
Walt
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
I own 4 guns and advocate using guns *sensibly* for self defense and hunting, but not
a free-for-all everyone can carry a shotgun in downtown New York City as a "right".
(this is 2009, not 1776, we have "arms" that are far more powerful than muskets)
;-)
Mr. Albritton
of deaths was:
Virginia Tech Murders
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre
32 deaths involving guns
You forgot to mention that this incident was specifically a GUN FREE ZONE.
How many already existing laws were broken by this incident?
Over ten? Maybe as much as fifteen?
Shows how well the law really *DOESN'T* protect us, doesn't it?
Mr. Albritton
> hunting, but not
> a free-for-all everyone can carry a shotgun in downtown New York City as a
> "right".
>
> (this is 2009, not 1776, we have "arms" that are far more powerful than
> muskets)
> ;-)
"Our guns are far more powerful than our ancestors' guns" is a REALLY BAD
excuse for gun control.
If you look at our own history you will find out the true reason why the 2nd
amendment was written:
If the government can have said firearm, then EVERYONE ELSE can have that
firearm.
Why?
Self defense against a TYRANNICAL GOVERNMENT.
Firelock
> In comparison, the shooting spree with the highest number
> of deaths was:
>
> 32 deaths involving guns
>
> You forgot to mention that this incident was specifically a GUN FREE ZONE.
As are most gun-based killing sprees - suicidal mass murders
may be crazy, but many of them aren't stupid. They seldom
choose police stations and rifle ranges for their sprees.
> How many already existing laws were broken by this incident?
> Over ten? Maybe as much as fifteen?
> Shows how well the law really *DOESN'T* protect us, doesn't it?
Well, both the gun and the gunless mass murders occurred in
murder-free zones...
--
Walt
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
> On Dec 8, 1:52 pm, "Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D." <d...@coldine.edu> wrote:
>
>>he he he...
>>
>>The gun goofball philosophy:
>>
>>A sharp pencil can kill as *many* people as an assault rifle.
>>A sharp pencil can kill as *surely* as an assault rifle.
>>A sharp pencil can kill as *easily* as an assault rifle.
>>
>>If guns did not exist there would be 30,000 sharp pencil murders every year.
>>
>>;-)
>
>
> Note that the US murder sprees with the highest body counts
> didn't involve guns at all. Humans, when they don't have access
> to an easy tool for a job, can be frightfully creative about
> other options - and disarming law-abiding citizens has little
> effect on the actions of criminals.
So you oppose any and all gun laws, right?
>
> Bath School Murders
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster
> 45 deaths, no guns involved.
>
> Happy Land Murders
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Land
> 87 deaths, no guns involved.
>
> Oklahoma City Murders
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing
> 168 deaths, no guns involved.
>
> September 11th, 2001 Murders
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11%2C_2001_attacks
> Almost 3000 deaths, no guns involved.
>
> In comparison, the shooting spree with the highest number
> of deaths was:
>
> Virginia Tech Murders
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre
> 32 deaths involving guns
>
> --
> Walt
--
Each person has an individual responsibility to determine if his actions are moral, and
no government or army may ever take that responsibility away.
definition:
murder - the unjustifiable and intentional killing of people, NO EXCEPTIONS.
Billy Cox
Explain why your eye was poked out.
Trevor Wilson
>> A sharp pencil can kill as *many* people as an assault rifle.
>> A sharp pencil can kill as *surely* as an assault rifle.
>> A sharp pencil can kill as *easily* as an assault rifle.
>>
>> If guns did not exist there would be 30,000 sharp pencil murders
>> every year.
>
> Guns PROTECT 2.5 MILLION lives every year.
**Prove it. Evidence from the FBI, police reports, or REPUTABLE media
sources will be acceptable. Here's the deal:
* YOU just claimed that there are an average of 6,850 DGUs each an every day
in the US.
* Provide evidence (as specified above) that 1% of your claimed number of
DGUs has occured and we'll take notice.
* If you are unable to provide the requested 1% evidence, then your claim
will be dismissed.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
Son, your solution, to have everybody at Virginia Tech and every other school
carrying a gun, is ludicrous and part of the reason why you gun goofballs are
not even acknowledged by normal rational mature people.
;-)
Peter Skelton
Please refrain from posting absurd numbers from dubious sources
here as truth. SMN has its own truly competent bs artists, does
not need amateurs from outside.
(BTW, I generally support gun ownership in the US culture. I long
ago figured out that USAians have their own peculiar way of
running their country. While it may, at times, look comical from
the outside, it seems to work there.)
Peter Skelton
Billy Cox
> I own 4 guns and advocate using guns *sensibly* for self defense and
> hunting, but not
> a free-for-all everyone can carry a shotgun in downtown New York City as
> a "right".
Liar.
You do NOT own any firearms at all. (legally)
You are also prohibited from being within 400 yards of children, or
operating a motor vehical on public streets.
You are a convicted freak, just like Judy "Speeder" Diaharrea.
Bert Hyman
<skel...@cogeco.ca> wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 12:26:41 -0700, "Mr. Albritton"
><albri...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>Guns PROTECT 2.5 MILLION lives every year.
>>This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more
>>often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.
>>http://gunowners.org/fs0404.htm
>>
>>Yep. I'll keep my gun.
>>You can keep the sharpened pencil.
>
> Please refrain from posting absurd numbers from dubious sources
> here as truth. SMN has its own truly competent bs artists, does
> not need amateurs from outside.
"ARMED RESISTANCE TO CRIME: THE PREVALENCE AND NATURE OF
SELF-DEFENSE WITH A GUN" Kleck & Gertz, Journal of Criminal Law and
Criminology (Northwestern) Guns and Violence Symposium, vol. 86, no.
1, 1995: 150.
"The most technically sound estimates presented in Table 2
are those based on the shorter one-year recall period that
rely on Rs' firsthand accounts of their own experiences
(person-based estimates). These estimates appear in the first
two columns. They indicate that each year in the U.S. there
are about 2.2 to 2.5 million DGUs [Defensive Gun Use] of all
types by civilians against humans, with about 1.5 to 1.9
million of the incidents involving use of handguns."
"THE ILLEGITIMACY OF ONE-SIDED SPECULATION: GETTING THE DEFENSIVE GUN
USE ESTIMATE DOWN" Kleck & Gertz, Journal of Criminal Law and
Criminology (Northwestern) 87 (1997): 1446.
--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN be...@iphouse.com
edi...@netpath.net
show that black Americans commit murder at EIGHT times the rate the
3/4 of Americans who are white do - and die of murder at FIVE times
the rate the 3/4 of Americans who are whites do - when the gun laws
are the same for both and either can buy guns as easily.
Face reality. Murder in America really is a BLACK ghetto problem -
and federal (in)Justice Department statistics show it.
http://www.redstate.com/erick/2009/08/04/where-is-your-townhall/ is
the all-states, continually-updated calendar of "town halls."
http://www.Internet-Gun-Show.com - your source for hard-to-find stuff!
Mr. Albritton
>>This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often
>>to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.
>>http://gunowners.org/fs0404.htm
>>
>>Yep. I'll keep my gun.
>>You can keep the sharpened pencil.
>
> Please refrain from posting absurd numbers from dubious sources
> here as truth. SMN has its own truly competent bs artists, does
> not need amateurs from outside.
>
> (BTW, I generally support gun ownership in the US culture. I long
> ago figured out that USAians have their own peculiar way of
> running their country. While it may, at times, look comical from
> the outside, it seems to work there.)
Wow. Instead of looking at the completely documented, referenced, and
wholly verifiable data, both you and Trevor Wilson make the erroneous claim
of "dubious sources" in order to make a very bad attempt to discredit my
statement.
All of you are practically SCREAMING for data.
Now that you have it, a temper-tantrum has been thrown.
How very immature and unintelligent.
P.S. "Please refrain from....."
Who the are you to make moderator requests / statements / demands?
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
We have hundreds of years of tradition and values, and VOTING, and 300 million people
who cannot be controlled by a dictator.
Rifles against our military will not cut it, son, and you sure ain't a "well regulated militia".
;-)
Trevor Wilson
>>> Guns PROTECT 2.5 MILLION lives every year.
>>> This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times
>>> more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take
>>> lives. http://gunowners.org/fs0404.htm
>>>
>>> Yep. I'll keep my gun.
>>> You can keep the sharpened pencil.
>>
>> Please refrain from posting absurd numbers from dubious sources
>> here as truth. SMN has its own truly competent bs artists, does
>> not need amateurs from outside.
>>
>> (BTW, I generally support gun ownership in the US culture. I long
>> ago figured out that USAians have their own peculiar way of
>> running their country. While it may, at times, look comical from
>> the outside, it seems to work there.)
>
> Wow. Instead of looking at the completely documented, referenced, and
> wholly verifiable data, both you and Trevor Wilson make the erroneous
> claim of "dubious sources" in order to make a very bad attempt to
> discredit my statement.
**Your own statement discredits itself. You failed to provide credible proof
of your claim.
>
> All of you are practically SCREAMING for data.
**Well, gee whiz. Imagine that? You make an unsupported claim and I ask for
some proof.
> Now that you have it, a temper-tantrum has been thrown.
**Nope. YOU have failed to provide proof of your claim. I supplied details
of what consititutes acceptable evidence. You failed to supply it. Your
claim is dismissed as nonsense.
>
> How very immature and unintelligent.
**Nope. "immature and unintelligent" would be the failure to supply proof of
an outrageous claim. That failure rests fairly and squarely on your
shoulders.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
> On Dec 8, 2:56 pm, "Mr. Albritton" <albritto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>In comparison, the shooting spree with the highest number
>>of deaths was:
>>
>>Virginia Tech Murdershttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre
>>32 deaths involving guns
>>
>>You forgot to mention that this incident was specifically a GUN FREE ZONE.
>
>
> As are most gun-based killing sprees - suicidal mass murders
Right, they are insane, so they will *always* pick a place where they think they can
make their "statement", and the gun goofball solution of having everyone carrying a
gun is ludicrous and will never happen.
;-)
> may be crazy, but many of them aren't stupid. They seldom
> choose police stations and rifle ranges for their sprees.
>
>
>>How many already existing laws were broken by this incident?
>>Over ten? Maybe as much as fifteen?
>>Shows how well the law really *DOESN'T* protect us, doesn't it?
>
>
> Well, both the gun and the gunless mass murders occurred in
> murder-free zones...
>
> --
> Walt
Mr. Albritton
> million people
> who cannot be controlled by a dictator.
Kinda like we "VOTED" Great Britain out of our government in 1776, right?
Mr. Albritton
> proof of your claim.
Being that you obviously missed it the first time, I'll post it again.
http://gunowners.org/fs0404.htm
Mr. Albritton
> "well regulated militia".
> ;-)
Contrary to your rather worthless opinion, I am part of the militia.
"which presently consist of every able-bodied man of at least 17 and under
45 years of age"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_%28United_States%29
Trevor Wilson
**Inability to provide adequate proof (or even a single shred of evidence)
is duly noted. Your claim is dismissed.
Read my previous comments, that you snipped.
You supplied NOTHING remotely close to what constitutes reasonable evidence.
I even made it very easy for you: Provide proof (not anecdotal - actual
police/FBI/reputable media reports) of 1% of your claim. Very easy.
That you have failed to supply that proof, makes your claim utterly bogus.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Conan the Barabarian
news:2-KdnSjIpL_mPYPW...@supernews.com:
Unfortuneately you won't be among them.
--
To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the
lamentation of their women.
Peter Skelton
You'll have to do one hell of a lot better than that. Remember,
we have competent bs artists here.
Peter Skelton
Mr. Albritton
data just because that cite doesn't give you a warm fuzzy.
Yet again, immature and unintelligent.
Not to mention throwing a temper-tantrum because you aren't getting your
way.
Mr. Albritton
> we have competent bs artists here.
Isn't the phrase "competent BS artists" an oxymoron?
Peter Skelton
<albri...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>Guns PROTECT 2.5 MILLION lives every year.
>>>This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often
>>>to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.
>>>http://gunowners.org/fs0404.htm
>>>
>>>Yep. I'll keep my gun.
>>>You can keep the sharpened pencil.
>>
>> Please refrain from posting absurd numbers from dubious sources
>> here as truth. SMN has its own truly competent bs artists, does
>> not need amateurs from outside.
>>
>> (BTW, I generally support gun ownership in the US culture. I long
>> ago figured out that USAians have their own peculiar way of
>> running their country. While it may, at times, look comical from
>> the outside, it seems to work there.)
>
>Wow. Instead of looking at the completely documented, referenced, and
>wholly verifiable data, both you and Trevor Wilson make the erroneous claim
>of "dubious sources" in order to make a very bad attempt to discredit my
>statement.
>
>All of you are practically SCREAMING for data.
>Now that you have it, a temper-tantrum has been thrown.
>
Now that an idiot has posted obviously inaccurate data from a
clearly biased source, he gets called and immediately heads for a
tantrum. (It's based on presonal reclooections of a non-random
sample.)
>How very immature and unintelligent.
>
Your classic stupid right-winger almost invaraibly accuses the
ather party of what he's doing himself.
>P.S. "Please refrain from....."
>Who the are you to make moderator requests / statements / demands?
Someone with intelligence.
Peter Skelton
Trevor Wilson
> As I said before, a really bad try at discrediting a legitimate
> source of data just because that cite doesn't give you a warm fuzzy.
**IT'S NOT DATA! It is a claim, made without data. YOU have failed to supply
any data. Not one bit.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Mr. Albritton
All cited sources from this cite:
http://gunowners.org/fs0404.htm
1 Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and
Nature of Self-Defense With a Gun," 86 The Journal of Criminal Law and
Criminology, Northwestern University School of Law, 1 (Fall 1995):164.
Dr. Kleck is a professor in the school of criminology and criminal justice
at Florida State University in Tallahassee. He has researched extensively
and published several essays on the gun control issue. His book, Point
Blank: Guns and Violence in America, has become a widely cited source in the
gun control debate. In fact, this book earned Dr. Kleck the prestigious
American Society of Criminology Michael J. Hindelang award for 1993. This
award is given for the book published in the past two to three years that
makes the most outstanding contribution to criminology.
Even those who don't like the conclusions Dr. Kleck reaches, cannot argue
with his impeccable research and methodology. In "A Tribute to a View I Have
Opposed," Marvin E. Wolfgang writes that, "What troubles me is the article
by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. The reason I am troubled is that they have
provided an almost clear-cut case of methodologically sound research in
support of something I have theoretically opposed for years, namely, the use
of a gun in defense against a criminal perpetrator. . . . I have to admit my
admiration for the care and caution expressed in this article and this
research. Can it be true that about two million instances occur each year in
which a gun was used as a defensive measure against crime? It is hard to
believe. Yet, it is hard to challenge the data collected. We do not have
contrary evidence." Wolfgang, "A Tribute to a View I Have Opposed," The
Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, at 188.
Wolfgang says there is no "contrary evidence." Indeed, there are more than a
dozen national polls-one of which was conducted by The Los Angeles
Times-that have found figures comparable to the Kleck-Gertz study. Even the
Clinton Justice Department (through the National Institute of Justice) found
there were as many as 1.5 million defensive users of firearms every year.
See National Institute of Justice, "Guns in America: National Survey on
Private Ownership and Use of Firearms," Research in Brief (May 1997).
As for Dr. Kleck, readers of his materials may be interested to know that he
is a member of the ACLU, Amnesty International USA, and Common Cause. He is
not and has never been a member of or contributor to any advocacy group on
either side of the gun control debate.
2 According to the National Safety Council, the total number of gun deaths
(by accidents, suicides and homicides) account for less than 30,000 deaths
per year. See Injury Facts, published yearly by the National Safety Council,
Itasca, Illinois.
3 Philip J. Cook and Jens Ludwig, "Guns in America: National Survey on
Private Ownership and Use of Firearms," NIJ Research in Brief (May 1997);
available at http://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles/165476.txt. The finding of 1.5
million yearly self-defense cases did not sit well with the anti-gun bias of
the study's authors, who attempted to explain why there could not possibly
be one and a half million cases of self-defense every year. Nevertheless,
the 1.5 million figure is consistent with a mountain of independent surveys
showing similar figures. The sponsors of these studies-nearly a dozen-are
quite varied, and include anti-gun organizations, news media organizations,
governments and commercial polling firms. See also Kleck and Gertz, supra
note 1, pp. 182-183.
4 One of the authors of the University of Chicago study reported on the
study's findings in John R. Lott, Jr., "More Guns, Less Violent Crime," The
Wall Street Journal (28 August 1996). See also John R. Lott, Jr. and David
B. Mustard, "Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns,"
University of Chicago (15 August 1996); and Lott, More Guns, Less Crime
(1998, 2000).
5 Jens Ludwig and Philip J. Cook, "Homicide and Suicide Rates Associated
With Implementation of the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act," Journal
of the American Medical Association, vol. 284, no. 5 (August 2, 2000).
6 For football deaths, see Frederick O. Mueller, Annual Survey of Football
Injury Research: 1931-2001, National Center for Catastrophic Sport Injury
Research (February 2002) at
http://www.unc.edu/depts/nccsi/SurveyofFootballInjuries.htm. For school
firearms murders, see Dr. Ronald D. Stephens, "School Associated Violent
Deaths," The National School Safety Center Report (June 3, 2002) at
http://www.NSSC1.org. In addition to the 22 murders which occurred on school
property or at school-sponsored events, there were another two shooting
deaths which were accidents and twelve which were suicides.
7 The BATF estimates that licensed gun dealers sell about 4 million new
firearms each year. See US Department of the Treasury, Bureau of Alcohol,
Tobacco and Firearms, Commerce in Firearms in the United States (February
2000), p. 6, which is available at
http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/020400report.pdf. A similar
statistic which tracks with the number of firearms sold is the production of
new firearms. According to the American Firearms Industry, there were about
4 million new firearms produced each year during the first half of the 1990s
in this country. See American Firearms Industry, Production: 1973-1995 at
http://www.amfire.com/production.htm. Numbers revealing the drop in the U.S.
murder rate during the 1990s, can be examined using the FBI's Uniform Crime
Reports. Murders in the United States dropped from a high of 9.4 murders per
100,000 in 1990 to a rate of 5.7 per 100,000 in 1999-a drop of 39%.
8 Accidental gun deaths in the home decreased by 38% between 1990 and 1999.
National Safety Council, Injury Facts (2000), p. 125.
9 The CDC study examined gun and ammunition bans, waiting periods,
background checks, lock-up your safety laws, plus much more. The inescapable
conclusion was that the "evidence was insufficient" to show that such gun
restrictions reduced crime rates. [Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention, "First Reports Evaluating the Effectiveness of Strategies for
Preventing Violence: Early Childhood Home Visitation and Firearms Laws,"
Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report (October 3, 2003), vol. 52(No.
RR-14):14-18.] It should be noted that Dr. John's Lott research-made widely
available in More Guns, Less Crime (see supra note 4)-was part of the data
examined by the CDC. The agency concluded there was no evidence to support
the idea that "shall issue" carry laws reduce crime. Despite the agency's
vote of no confidence in Lott's data, his research has been verified by
other independent works, such as the one published in the Stanford Law
Review. [Florenz Plassmann and John Whitley, "Confirming 'More Guns, Less
Crime,'" Stanford Law Review (April 16, 2003), vol. 55:1313.]
This law review article by Plassmann and Whitley cites several other studies
showing that concealed carry laws have made a positive impact on crime
rates-in some cases, finding benefits much greater than what was reported in
Lott's research. Those studies include the following: William Alan Bartley &
Mark A. Cohen, The Effect of Concealed Weapons Laws: An Extreme Bound
Analysis, 36 ECON. INQUIRY 258, 258-65 (1998); Stephen G. Bronars and John
R. Lott, Jr., Criminal Deterrence, Geographic Spillovers, and Right-to-Carry
Laws, AM. ECON. REV., May 1998, at 475-79; John R. Lott, Jr. & John E.
Whitley, Safe-Storage Gun Laws: Accidental Deaths, Suicides, and Crime, 44
J.L. & ECON. 659, 659-89 (2001); Tomas B. Marvell, The Impact of Banning
Juvenile Gun Possession, 44 J.L. & ECON. 691, 691-714 (2001); Carlisle E.
Moody, Testing for the Effects of Concealed Weapons Laws: Specification
Errors and Robustness, 44 J.L. & ECON. 799, 799-813 (2001); David B.
Mustard, The Impact of Gun Laws on Police Deaths, 44 J.L. & ECON. 635,
635-58 (2001); David E. Olson & Michael D. Maltz, Right-to-Carry Concealed
Weapon Laws and Homicide in Large U.S. Counties: The Effect on Weapon Types,
Victim Characteristics, and Victim-Offender Relationships, 44 J.L. & ECON.
747, 747-70 (2001); Florenz Plassmann & T. Nicolaus Tideman, Does the Right
to Carry Concealed Handguns Deter Countable Crimes? Only a Count Analysis
Can Say, 44 J.L. & ECON. 771, 771-98 (2001); Eric Helland & Alexander
Tabarrok, Using Placebo Laws to Test "More Guns, Less Crime": A Note (Univ.
of Chi. Graduate Sch. of Bus., Working Paper, 2002).
10 National Institute of Justice, "Homicide in Eight U.S. Cities: Trends,
Context, and Policy Implications," Research Report (December 1997), p. 99.
11 Caroline Wolf Harlow, "Firearm Use by Offenders: Survey of Inmates in
State and Federal Correctional Facilities," Bureau of Justice Statistics
Special Report (November 2001), p. 1.
12 Daniel Merkle, "America: It's Our Right to Bear Arms," ABCNews.com (May
14, 2002). The poll of 1,028 adults was conducted between May 8 and 12 of
2002. The poll found that after hearing the text of the Second Amendment
verbatim, 73 percent of the American public viewed the amendment as
guaranteeing an individual right. Only 20 percent thought the amendment
guaranteed the right of a state to maintain a militia.
13 "Zogby American Values Poll Results," The Washington Times (March 28,
2000).
14 Research 2000 of Rockville, Maryland. This survey was conducted from
January 30 through February 1, 2002. A total of 1101 likely voters
nationally were interviewed by telephone.
15 See supra notes 2 and 3.
17 Don B. Kates, "Guns and Public Health: Epidemic of Violence, or Pandemic
of Propaganda?" in Gary Kleck & Kates, Armed: New Perspectives on Gun
Control (2001), p.75.
17 Ibid.
18 "Handgun crime 'up' despite ban," BBC News Online (July 16, 2001) at
http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/uk/newsid_1440000/1440764.stm.
19 John van Kesteren, Pat Mayhew and Paul Nieuwbeerta, "Criminal
Victimisation in Seventeen Industrialised Courtries: Key findings from the
2000 International Crime Victims Survey," (2000). This study can be read at
http://www.unicri.it/icvs/publications/index_pub.htm. The link is to the
ICVS homepage; study data are available for download as Acrobat pdf files.
20 See supra note 1.
21 See supra note 2.
22 Kleck and Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime," at 173, 185.
23 Kleck and Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime," at 185.
24 See supra note 3.
25 Kleck, Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America, (1991):111-116, 148.
26 George F. Will, "Are We 'a Nation of Cowards'?," Newsweek (15 November
1993):93.
27 Id. at 164, 185.
28 Dr. Gary Kleck, interview with J. Neil Schulman, "Q and A: Guns, crime
and self-defense," The Orange County Register (19 September 1993). In the
interview with Schulman, Dr. Kleck reports on findings from a national
survey which he and Dr. Marc Gertz conducted in Spring, 1993-a survey which
findings were reported in Kleck and Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime."
29 See supra note 4.
30 Lott and Mustard, "Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed
Handguns."
31 Kathleen O'Leary Morgan, Scott Morgan and Neal Quitno, "Rankings of
States in Most Dangerous/Safest State Awards 1994 to 2003," Morgan Quitno
Press (2004) at http://www.statestats.com/dang9403.htm. Morgan Quitno Press
is an independent private research and publishing company which was founded
in 1989. The company specializes in reference books and monthly reports that
compare states and cities in several different subject areas. In the first
10 years in which they published their Safest State Award, Vermont has
consistently remained one of the top five safest states.
32 Memo by Jim Smith, Secretary of State, Florida Department of State,
Division of Licensing, Concealed Weapons/Firearms License Statistical Report
(October 1, 2002).
33 Florida's murder rate was 11.4 per 100,000 in 1987, but only 5.5 in 2002.
Compare Federal Bureau of Investigation, "Crime in the United States,"
Uniform Crime Reports, (1988): 7, 53; and FBI, (2003):19, 79.
34 From 1988 through 2002, there were 229 documented alligator attacks on
human beings in Florida. This does not include any unreported encounters.
Interview with Henry Cabbage, Media Relations for the Florida Fish and
Wildlife Conservation, Tallahassee, Florida (25 July 2003). By contrast,
there were only 155 CCW holders who used their guns during the same period
to commit a crime. See supra note 32.
35 John R. Lott, Jr., "Right to carry would disprove horror stories," Kansas
City Star, (12 July 2003).
36 The comparison period between Georgia and Wisconsin is for the years 1976
to 1993. The enactment of the national Brady waiting period in 1994 ended
the ability to extend, beyond 1993, any comparison of waiting periods and
concealed carry laws in states such as Georgia and Wisconsin. Compare FBI,
"Crime in the United States," Uniform Crime Reports (1977):45, 53; and FBI,
(1994):70, 78.
37 Gary Kleck, "Crime Control Through the Private Use of Armed Force,"
Social Problems 35 (February 1988):15.
38 Compare Kleck, "Crime Control," at 15, and Chief Dwaine L. Wilson, City
of Kennesaw Police Department, "Month to Month Statistics: 1991."
(Residential burglary rates from 1981-1991 are based on statistics for the
months of March - October.)
39 Kleck, Point Blank, at 140.
40 Kleck, "Crime Control," at 13.
41 U.S. Department of Justice, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration,
Rape Victimization in 26 American Cities (1979), p. 31.
42 U.S., Department of Justice, National Institute of Justice, "The Armed
Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons," Research Report (July
1985): 27.
43 Id.
44 Id.
45 Warren v. District of Columbia, D.C. App., 444 A. 2d 1 (1981). See also
Richard W. Stevens, Dial 911 and Die (1999) which gives the laws and cases
in all 50 states to support the statement that government (police) owes no
duty to protect individual citizens from criminal attack.
46 Statement of Representative Ron Johnson in U.S. Senate, "Handgun Violence
Prevention Act of 1987," Hearing before the Subcommittee on the Constitution
of the Committee on the Judiciary (16 June 1987):33.
47 Bureau of Justice Statistics, Sourcebook of Criminal Justice
Statistics-1990 (1991):257.
48 Interview with Brian A. Reaves, Ph.D., statistician for the Bureau of
Justice Statistics in Washington, D.C. (January 11, 2001). In 1996, the
total number (estimated) of all law enforcement combined (federal, state and
local) that were on duty and assigned to respond to calls at any one time-on
the average-was approximately 146,395 officers. There were 265,463,000
people living in the United States in 1996 for an actual ratio of 1,813
citizens for every officer. See also Kleck, Point Blank, at 132.
49 The murder rates for Washington, D.C. and the nation were 26.8 and 8.8
respectively in 1976. Their respective murder rates 25 years later were 40.6
and 5.6. These murder rates are based on the population per 100,000 people.
FBI, "Crime in the United States," Uniform Crime Reports (1977 and 2002).
50 FBI, "Crime in the United States," Uniform Crime Reports (October 28,
2002): 77.
51 Id. at 190. According to Arlington County's Department of Planning,
Housing and Development, the population in Arlington, Virginia for 2001 was
190,092.
52 Id. at 85.
53 Gary Kleck, speech delivered to the National Research Council, quoted in
Don B. Kates, Jr., "Scholars' ignorant bias causes anti-gun sentiments,"
Handguns (June 1991), pp. 12-13.
54 "Gun Critic Shifts His Position," The Denver Post (November 28, 1985).
55 James D. Wright, "Second Thoughts About Gun Control," The Public
Interest, 91 (Spring 1988):23, 25.
56 Dave Kopel, "Guns, Germs, and Science: Public Health Approaches to Gun
Control," 84 The Journal of the Medical Association of Georgia (June 1995):
272.
57 Id.
58 Congressional Record (May 8, 1991), at H 2859, H 2862.
59 Wall Street Journal (March 3, 1994) at A10.
60 Jonathan T. Lovitt, "Survival for the armed," USA Today (May 4, 1992).
61 U.S. Senate, "The Right to Keep and Bear Arms," Report of the
Subcommittee on the Constitution of the Committee on the Judiciary,
(1982):12.
62 U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 US 259 (1990).
63 The court stated, "The fact that the liberty of the press may be abused
by miscreant purveyors of scandal does not make any less necessary the
immunity of the press from previous restraint in dealing with official
misconduct. Subsequent punishment for such abuses as may exist is the
appropriate remedy, consistent with constitutional privilege." Near v.
Minnesota, 283 U.S. 697, 51 S. Ct. 625, 75 L. Ed. 1357 (1931).
64 Alan Korwin, Brady Law Closes Gun Stores More Than 8 Days, (Bloomfield
Press: July 28, 1999). Bloomfield Press can be contacted at
http://www.bloomfieldpress.com.
65 Richard B. Abell, Assistant Attorney General, Task Force Chairman, Report
to the Attorney General on Systems for Identifying Felons Who Attempt to
Purchase Firearms (October 1989), p. 75.
66 Bureau of Justice Assistance, Grant Manager's Memorandum, Pt. 1: Project
Summary (September 30, 1994), Project Number: 94-DD-CX-0166.
67 Copy of "FIST" (Firearms Inquiry Statistical Tracking) software at GOA
headquarters, Springfield, VA. See also Pennsylvania Sportsmen's News
(Oct./Nov. 1996). The default in the "FIST" computer software is for the
police officials to indefinitely retain the information on gun
owners-despite the fact that the Brady law only allows officials to retain
this data for 20 days. One wonders who will ensure that this information
will be deleted after the 20th day.
68 Mike Slavonic, NRA Director and Chairman of the Legislative Committee for
the Allegheny County Sportsmen's League, states that the instant background
check could be "our downfall." He notes that, "What most Americans don't
know is that once instant check goes into effect in 1998 the purpose of
Brady could be used to set the stage for national confiscation. Instant
check could eventually keep guns out of the hands of everyone by registering
everyone who purchases a handgun, rifle and shotgun and who obtained
concealed weapons permits in a computerized database like 'FIST'. The most
difficult problem with a gun ban is locating the firearms. FIST [with the
help of the instant check], over time, could solve that problem." Slavonic,
"Another Gun Database Discovered," Pennsylvania Sportsmen's News (Oct./Nov.
1996) at 7.
69 FBI's Final Rule printed in the Federal Register (October 30, 1998) at
58311. After the FBI submitted its proposed regulations on June 4, 1998, Gun
Owners of America submitted written comments (in September of 1988) to
challenge the FBI's regulations. GOA stated, "These proposed regulations are
unlawful and unconstitutional. They are so fundamentally corrupt that there
are no incremental changes which will even marginally improve them. Rest
assured that they will be challenged in every possible judicial and
legislative forum. . . . The efforts to retain information on gun owners for
eighteen months-and indefinitely in your computer backup system-constitutes
an illegal system of firearms registration, in violation of 18 U.S.C. 926.
The same is, in fact, true even for efforts to retain information about
persons prohibited from purchasing firearms."
70 David B. Kopel, Policy Review 63 (Winter 1993):6.
71 Kopel, ed., Guns: Who Should Have Them? (1995) at 88, 117 (fn. 75), and
122 (fn. 124).
72 See supra note 5.
73 Scully, "Supremacist's shooting spree could spur gun control moves," The
Washington Times (July 8, 1999).
74 Attorney General Betty D. Montgomery, "The U.S. Supreme Court's Action in
Striking Portions of the Brady Act," News Statement (June 30, 1997).
75 Department of Justice, "Survey of Incarcerated Felons," p. 36.
76 Pierre Thomas, "In the Line of Fire: The 'Straw Purchase' Scam," The
Washington Post (August 18, 1991); and Thomas, "Va. Driver's License is
Loophole for Guns: Fake Addresses Used in No-Wait Sales," The Washington
Post (January 20, 1992).
77 National Institute of Justice, "Homicide in Eight U.S. Cities: Trends,
Context, and Policy Implications," Research Report (December 1997), p. 99.
78 Meghan Hoyer, "Brady Act results overstated in Indiana," Indianapolis
Star and News (June 23, 1998).
79 See General Accounting Office, "Gun Control: Implementation of the Brady
Handgun Violence Prevention Act," Report to the Committee on the Judiciary,
U.S. Senate, and the Committee on the Judiciary, House of Representatives
(January 1996), p. 8.
80 The Washington Times noted in July of 1999 that:
Although federal officials say about 400,000 persons have been prevented
from buying guns by the instant check system, only one has been prosecuted
by the Department of Justice in the last three years. [Sean Scully,
"Supremacist's shooting spree could spur gun control moves," The Washington
Times (July 8, 1999).]
That made for a whopping total of just eight prosecutions and merely three
persons sent to jail in the first five years the Brady Law was in existence.
One certainly had to conclude that the Brady Law was not working to put
criminals behind bars. There are no reliable, government statistics that
regularly update the public on how many Brady violators are being
incarcerated. However, everyone agrees the number is very low. For example,
a training manual produced by Handgun Control, Inc., guides its activists in
how to answer a question regarding the low number of convictions under the
Brady Law. The manual basically says, when you are asked why so few people
are being sent to jail under Brady, just ignore the question. The question
posed in the manual reads: "Q: You claim that the Brady Law works, why have
only 7 people been convicted for violating the law?" To answer this
question, the manual encourages activists to go on the offensive and say the
following: "A quarter-million high-risk people have been stopped from buying
firearms since 1994, and that was always the point of the Brady law. Ninety
percent of Americans agree that background checks and waiting periods are
sensible regulations that protect public safety. With the success of the
Brady law, the only people who continue to oppose regulating guns like other
products are the gun lobby and the politicians who receive their enormous
campaign contributions." [Naomi Paiss, "Sense and Sanity: A Guide to Talking
about Gun Control," Handgun Control, Center to Prevent Handgun Violence
(November 1997).] In other words, since there is no good answer to this
question, from their perspective, activists are to remember three words:
Attack, Attack, Attack.
81 Of persons denied the right to purchase a firearm under the Brady Law,
7.6 percent of the denials involved routine traffic stops. Another 38.9
percent were the result of administrative snafus. Only 44.7 percent of
denials were as a result of felony convictions, and many of these resulted
from white collar crimes and ancient peccadilloes which would not suggest
that the person would pose a danger. See supra note 79 at 39-40, 64-65.
82 Id., at 4.
83 Id.
84 On August 16, 1991, New York City Mayor David Dinkins signed Local Law 78
which banned the possession and sale of certain rifles and shotguns.
85 John Marzulli, "Weapons ban defied: S.I. man, arsenal seized," Daily News
(September 5, 1992).
86 "Thousands of Californians Become Instant Criminals," The New Gun Week
(March 1, 1998). See also "Gun Confiscation Begins: Gun Law Victim Holds
Press Conference and Turns in Gun to Local Officials," NRA Press Release
(January 28, 1998).
87 Id.
88 To read a photocopy of this notice, go to
http://www.gunowners.org/fs9906.htm.
89 Id.
90 David Kopel, "Trust the People: The Case Against Gun Control," [Cato
Institute] Policy Analysis 109 (July 11, 1988):25.
91 Jay Simkin, Aaron Zelman and Alan M. Rice, Lethal Laws: "Gun Control" is
the Key to Genocide, (Milwaukee: Jews for the Preservation of Firearms
Ownership, 1994).
92 Senate, "Handgun Violence," at 107, citing Novae Russkae Slovo, Vol.
LXXII, No. 26.291, (6 Nov. 1983).
93 Kopel, "Trust the People," at 26.
94 Id., at 25-26.
95 U.S. News & World Report, (17 January 1994): 8.
96 Lamont v. Postmaster General, 381 U.S. 301, 85 S. Ct. 1493, 14 L. Ed. 2d
398 (1965).
97 Dr. Edward Ezell presented testimony before the Senate Subcommittee on
the Constitution in 1989, and while doing so, helped clarify the true
definition of an "assault rifle." The subcommittee record reports the
following credentials for Dr. Ezell: Curator of the National Firearms
Collection at the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of American
History, and founding Director of the Institute for Research on Small Arms
in International Security.
98 Statement by Edward Ezell, "Assault Weapons," Hearings Before the
Subcommittee on the Constitution of the Committee on the Judiciary, U.S.
Senate, (5 May 1989):396.
99 Defense Intelligence Agency, Small Arms Identification and Operation
Guide-Eurasian Communist Countries (Washington, D.C.: Government Printing
Office, 1988):105, cited in Kopel, Guns: Who Should Have Them? at 162.
100 Kleck, Point Blank, at 70.
101 Senate, "Assault Weapons," at 396.
102 Officer William R. McGrath, "An Open Letter to American Politicians,"
The Police Marksman (May/June 1989): 19.
103 Id.
104 Id.
105 Congressional Record, 13 September 1990:E 2826, citing [Police
Advertisement], Roll Call, 3 September 1990. Also, see Howard Schneider,
"Gun Owners Take Shot at Schaefer Assault-Weapon Bill," The Washington Post
(February 15, 1991).
106 Iver Peterson, "Both Sides Say Trenton's Ban on Assault Rifles Has
Little Effect on Crime," The New York Times (June 20, 1993).
107 Id.
108 U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, "Survey of
State Prison Inmates, 1991" (March 1993):18.
109 FBI, "Crime in the United States," (1994):18.
110 Matt L. Rodriguez, Superintendent of Police for the City of Chicago,
1993 Murder Analysis at 12, 13.
111 Compare FBI, "Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted," Uniform
Crime Reports, for the years 1989 (0 officers); 1990 (two officers), at 24,
36; 1991 (three officers), at 40, 41, 45; 1992 (two officers), at 46; 1993
(2 officers), at 41, 45.
Note: In 1993, there were three officers who died by unknown firearms which
possibly could have been classified as semi-automatic "assault weapons."
(FBI, "Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted, 1993," at 55.) These
three died at Waco, Texas-a jury later finding that authorities had provoked
the residents at Mt. Carmel into firing. (Carol Moore, The Davidian Massacre
(1995): 450.) Also supporting this view were two BATF agents who initially
told the Texas Rangers that authorities had fired first upon the Davidians.
(J.L.Pate, "Prosecution Against Waco Survivors Begins," The New Gun Week,
(11 February 1994):5.) Despite the jury's finding that authorities provoked
the residents in Mt. Carmel into firing, Newsweek and other news sources
have pointed out that the officers might have died from "friendly fire."
("Was it Friendly Fire? In the bungled Waco raid, federal agents may have
been shot by their own men," Newsweek, (5 April 1993):50.)
112 In the five years of 1989 to 1993, 30 officers were killed by their own
service weapons. By contrast, only 9 officers were killed by so-called
assault weapons. Id, for the years 1989, at 4; 1990, at 4, 24, 36; 1991, at
4, 40, 41, 45; 1992, at 4, 46; 1993, at 4, 41, 45.
113 In the five years of 1989 to 1993, 15 officers were killed by knives and
blunt objects. By contrast, only nine officers were killed by so-called
assault weapons. Compare FBI, "Officers Killed," for the years 1989, at 4,
13, 26; 1990, at 4, 12, 24, 36; and 1991, at 4, 40, 41, 45; 1992, at 4, 46;
1993, at 4, 13, 41, 45.
114 By using an inflated definition of "assault weapon," HCI attempts to
"show" that these guns killed 36 percent (a minority) of the policemen who
were murdered between January 1, 1994 and September 30, 1995. Of course,
HCI's figure wildly departs from the 1% figure given by official government
studies. (See supra note 108.) See Handgun Control, Inc., Cops Under Fire:
Law Enforcement Officers Killed with Assault Weapons or Guns with High
Capacity Magazines, (29 November 1995):2.
115 Id. The HCI study borrowed the very expansive definition of
semi-automatic firearm from the Clinton gun ban which passed in 1994. This
definition is so broad that it covers over 180 types of firearms, including
reproductions of the 1873 Winchester and the 1860 Henry Rifles. (While the
Clinton gun ban exempted reproductions of these two guns under section
922(v)(3) of Title 18-the provisions defining what a semi-automatic "assault
weapon" is-the ban did not exempt these rifles under section 922(w)-the
provision banning high-capacity magazines. Both of these rifles have
tubular-fed magazines holding over 10 rounds, thus making them banned
firearms.)
The generic definition for an "assault weapon" in the Clinton gun ban would
include many, many other guns, had the law failed to specifically exclude
several hundreds of common guns which would have easily fallen under the
definition of an "assault weapon."
Not surprisingly, by using President Clinton's over-inflated definition of
an "assault weapon," HCI was able to find more and more of these guns
killing officers. To extend their logic, if HCI figures a way to define ALL
guns as "assault weapons," then it will be able to claim that these "assault
weapons" comprise 100 percent of the guns that kill policemen.
Even so, HCI has now encountered a dilemma with the publishing of their
study: their study "shows" that there has been a dramatic increase in the
number of policemen being killed by so-called assault weapons AFTER the ban
was put in place. (HCI claims that 36% of the guns killing officers are
"assault weapons," but the government's own pre-ban figures show the number
was only one percent. See supra note 108.) Thus, either HCI's data is wrong,
or it must concede that gun control INCREASES the threat to police officers.
116 Keith Bea, Congressional Research Service, "'Assault Weapons':
Military-Style Semiautomatic Firearms Facts and Issues," CRS Report for
Congress (13 May 1992, Technical Revisions: 4 June 1992): 65.
117 Id. at 67.
118 Id. at 69.
119 Kleck, Point Blank, at 75.
120 Massad Ayoob, "Defending Firepower," Combat Handguns (October 1990), p.
71.
121 Id. at 70.
122 Id. at 25.
123 Id. at 71.
124 "Koreans make armed stand to protect shops from looters," Roanoke Times
& World-News, 3 May 1992.
125 U.S. Senate, "The Right to Keep and Bear Arms," Report of the
Subcommittee on the Constitution of the Committee on the Judiciary (1982):7.
126 U.S. v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939).
127 The Institute of Medicine says the number of yearly deaths in the United
States resulting from medical errors ranges from 44,000 to 98,000 people.
See Linda T. Kohn, Janet M. Corrigan, and Molla S. Donaldson, ed., "To Err
is Human: Building a Safer Health System," National Academy Press (2000).
The full text of this report is available at
http://www.nap.edu/books/0309068371/html.
128 From 1970 to 1991, the number of fatal gun accidents for children aged
0-14 declined from 530 to 227. Kopel, Guns: Who Should Have Them? at 311.
And according to the National Safety Council, the decline has continued as
there were only 142 fatal gun accidents for children in that age group in
1997. National Safety Council, Injury Facts: 2000 Edition, at 18.
129 Kleck, Point Blank, at 271, 276.
130 Id. at 286.
131 Id. at 276, 277.
132 According to Dr. Kleck, the number of children who take guns to school
is between 16,000 and 17,000 students on any given day-or about 1 in every
800 high school students. Kleck, cited in Kopel, Guns: Who Should Have
Them?, at 323.
133 See supra note 6.
134 National Safety Council, Injury Facts: 2000 Edition, p. 10, 11, 18.
135 Alan Korwin, Researcher Finds Federal Gun Law Grew Nearly 6% in 1998, at
http://www.bloomfieldpress.com/6percent.htm.
136 Kopel, Guns: Who Should Have Them?, at 355.
137 Id., at 356.
138 Id., at 359.
139 Id., at 360. Kopel notes how several infamous criminals-such as John
Hinckley (who shot Jim Brady) and George Hennard (who killed 22 people at
Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas)-were each reenacting scenes from movies
that they had previously seen or studied.
140 Steve Twomey, "Indiscretions That Are Not So Youthful," The Washington
Post (December 6, 1993).
141 Christine Biegler, "Fearing crime, more women buy firearms," The
Washington Times (November 19, 1992).
142 Paxton Quigley, Armed & Female (1989): 7.
143 According to Dr. Gary Kleck, about 205,000 women use guns every year to
protect themselves against sexual abuse. Kleck and Gertz, "Armed Resistance
to Crime," at 185.
144 Don B. Kates, Jr., Guns, Murders, and the Constitution: A Realistic
Assessment of Gun Control (1990), at 29, citing U.S. Bureau of Justice
Statistics.
145 Id., at 25, 26.
146 Dr. Edgar A. Suter, "Guns in the Medical Literature-A Failure of Peer
Review," The Journal of the Medical Association of Georgia, vol. 83 (March
1994):136.
147 Kleck and Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime," at 173, 185.
148 Don B. Kates, "Guns and Public Health: Epidemic of Violence, or Pandemic
of Propaganda?" in Gary Kleck & Kates, Armed: New Perspectives on Gun
Control (2001), p. 79.
149 Ibid., p. 75.
150 Ibid., p. 76.
151 Criminal histories of murder victims is based on statistics from the
city of Chicago: Matt L. Rodriguez, Superintendent of Police for the City of
Chicago, 1997 Murder Analysis, at 21; 1996 Murder Analysis, at 21; and 1995
Murder Analysis, at 21. For the city of Chicago, 76% of murderers have prior
criminal records. For criminal histories of murderers nationwide, see Bureau
of Justice Statistics, National Update (October 1991): 4.
152 Bureau of Justice Statistics, National Update, at 4.
153 Kleck, Point Blank, at 393, 394; Colin Greenwood, Chief Inspector of
West Yorkshire Constabulary, Firearms Control: A Study of Armed Crime and
Firearms Control in England and Wales (1972):31; David Kopel, The Samurai,
the Mountie, and the Cowboy: Should America Adopt the Gun Controls of Other
Democracies (1992):91, 154.
154 Dr. John R. Lott, Jr., "Gun laws don't reduce crime," USA Today (May 9,
2002). See also Rhett Watson and Matthew Bayley, "Gun crime up 40pc since
Port Arthur," The Daily Telegraph (April 28, 2002). See also supra note 155.
155 Gary A. Mauser, "The Failed Experiment: Gun Control and Public Safety in
Canada, Australia, England and Wales," Public Policy Sources (The Fraser
Institute, November 2003), no. 71:4. This study can be accessed at
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/shared/readmore.asp?sNav=pb&id=604.
156 "Handgun crime 'up' despite ban," BBC News Online (July 16, 2001) at
http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/uk/newsid_1440000/1440764.stm. England is
a prime example of how crime has increased after implementing gun control.
For example, the original Pistols Act of 1903 did not stop murders from
increasing on the island. The number of murders in England was 68 percent
higher the year after the ban's enactment (1904) as opposed to the year
before (1902). (Greenwood, supra note 153.) This was not an aberration, as
almost seven decades later, firearms crimes in the U.K. were still on the
rise: the number of cases where firearms were used or carried in a crime
skyrocketed almost 1,000 percent from 1946 through 1969. (Greenwood,
supra note 153 at 159.) And by 1996, the murder rate in England was 132
percent higher than it had been before the original gun ban of 1903 was
enacted. (Compare Greenwood, supra note 153, with Bureau of Justice
Statistics, Crime and Justice in the United States and in England and Wales,
1981-96, Bureau of Justice Statistics, October 1998).
157 "Crime rising in Japan, while arrests at record low: police," AFP News
(August 3, 2001); "A crime wave alarms Japan, once gun-free," The
Philadelphia Inquirer, 11 July 1992.
158 "Most Crime Worse in England Than US, Study Says," Reuters (October 11,
1998). See also Bureau of Justice Statistics, Crime and Justice in the
United States and in England and Wales, 1981-96 (October 1998).
159 See BJS study, supra note 158 at iii.
160 John van Kesteren, Pat Mayhew and Paul Nieuwbeerta, "Criminal
Victimisation in Seventeen Industrialised Courtries: Key findings from the
2000 International Crime Victims Survey," (2000). This study can be read at
http://www.unicri.it/icvs/publications/index_pub.htm. The link is to the
ICVS homepage; study data are available for download as Acrobat pdf files.
161 Ian Henry and Tim Reid, "Crime figures a sham, say police," The
Electronic Telegraph (April 1, 1996).
162 Tim Reid, "Police are accused of fiddling crime data," The Electronic
Telegraph (May 4, 1997).
163 John Steele, "Police figures under-record offences by 20 percent," The
Electronic Telegraph (July 13, 2000).
164 See supra note 161.
165 Ibid.
166 Ibid.
167 See supra note 162.
168 Dave Kopel, Dr. Paul Gallant and Dr. Joanne Eisen, "Britain: From Bad to
Worse," NewsMax.com (March 22, 2001).
169 The number of people killed by their own government in Europe averages
about 400,000 for the last 70 years. This includes Hitler's extermination of
Jews, gypsies and other peoples (20,946,000); Stalin's genocide against the
Ukrainian kulaks (6,500,000); and more. R.J. Rummel, Death by Government
(2000), pp. 8 and 80.
170 At our historic worst, murders in the United States approached 25,000 in
1993-or 23,180 to be exact. So even applying our highest single-year tally
over the past 70 years would mean that Europeans have experienced 16 times
as many murders as we have in the United States.
171 THE FEDERALIST 46 (James Madison).
172 FBI, "Crime in the United States" (1996): 58.
173 United States Senate, A Majority Staff Report prepared for the use of
the Committee on the Judiciary, 1991 Murder Toll: Initial Projections
(August 1991).
174 Gary Fields, "Gun Conundrum: More on Streets, Fewer Reports of Deaths,
Woundings," The Wall Street Journal (December 11, 2000).
175 See supra note 4.
176 U.S. Senate, "The Right to Keep and Bear Arms," Report of the
Subcommittee on the Constitution of the
Committee on the Judiciary (1982): 8-17.
177 Id., at 12.
178 U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 US 259 (1990).
179 U.S. v. Lopez, 514 US 549 (1995).
180 Printz v. U.S., 521 US 98 (1997).
181 David B. Kopel, Stephen P. Halbrook and Alan Korwin, Supreme Court Gun
Cases: Two Centuries of Gun Rights Revealed (2004), p. 75. The quote in the
text comes from an article in the book by Kopel. The article is entitled,
"The Supreme Court's Thirty-five Other Gun Cases: What the Supreme Court has
said about the Second Amendment."
182 U.S. Senate, "The Right to Keep and Bear Arms," at 9. See also Stephen
P. Halbrook, That Every Man be Armed: The Evolution of a Constitutional
Right (1984): 107-153.
The Senate sponsor of the 14th Amendment, Senator Jacob Howard (R-MI), said
the Amendment would force the states to respect "the personal rights
guaranteed and secured by the first eight amendments of the Constitution;
such as freedom of speech and of the press; . . . the right to keep and bear
arms . . . ." Cong. Globe, 39th Cong., 1st Sess., pt. 3, 2765 (23 May 1866),
cited in Halbrook, at 112.
The House author of the 14th Amendment, Rep. John Bingham (R-OH), said that
the first eight amendments to the U.S. Constitution "never were limitations
upon the power of the States, until made so by the fourteenth amendment. The
words of that amendment, 'no State shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States,' are
an express prohibition upon every State of the Union." Cong. Globe, 42d
Cong., 1st Sess., pt. 2, Appendix, 84 (31 Mr. 1871), cited in Halbrook, at
146. (Rep. Bingham stated that the "privileges and immunities of citizens of
a State, are chiefly defined in the first eight amendments to the
Constitution of the United States.")
That the Fourteenth Amendment was intended, among other things, to prevent
states from disarming black citizens is clear. During debate over the 14th
Amendment, Senator Thomas Hendricks (D-IN) bragged that "colored" people in
his state do not enjoy the same rights as white people. Thus, he opposed
adoption of the 14th Amendment because among other things, it would grant
Second Amendment rights to the "negroes, the coolies, and the Indians."
Cong. Globe, 39th Cong., 1st Sess., pt. 3, 2939 (4 June 1866) cited in
Halbrook, at 113.
183 Public Law 99-308, Sect. 1(b).
184 Elliot, 3:425.
185 [Richard Henry Lee], Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republican,
ed. Walter Hartwell Bennett (Alabama: The University of Alabama Press,
1978): 124.
186 Militia Act of 1792, printed in John F. Callan, The Military Laws of the
United States (Baltimore: John Murphy & Co., 1858): 65.
187 U.S. Senate, "The Right to Keep and Bear Arms," Report of the
Subcommittee on the Constitution of the Committee on the Judiciary (1982):7.
188 Title 10 of the U.S. Code (Sec. 311) also defines the Militia to include
"female citizens of the United States who are members of the National
Guard." The Code then divides the Militia into two groups-the "unorganized"
militia (the body of the people) and the "organized" militia (the National
Guard). This two-fold division of the Militia was not added to federal law
until 1903.
189 U.S. v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939).
190 Kimi Yoshino, "Gun advocates say fear of liability keeps parents from
teaching survival skills," The Fresno Bee (August 26, 2000).
191 William Rasberry, "Ask A.D. Parker about gun control," The Denver Post
(March 20, 2000).
192 Gerald Mizejewski, "Device wins police praise but fails to move
skeptics," The Washington Times (March 23, 2000).
193 Interview with Sammy Gravano in Howard Blum, "The Reluctant Don," Vanity
Fair (September 1999), p. 165.
194 In Gun Facts, Guy Smith astutely observes that pollsters will often use
questions like "If it reduced crime, would you favor stronger gun control
laws." These questions, he says, are then rephrased in an editor's headline
to read "Americans demand gun control" while ignoring the leading goal of
reducing crime. These surveys also fail in one other important respect,
Smith says. They fail to ask counter balancing questions to prove/disprove
any bias in questions. For example, a counter-balancing question might be
"If it were shown that gun control laws were ineffective in preventing
crime, would you favor enacting more gun control laws?" Guy Smith, Gun Facts
(2001) at http://www.KeepAndBearArms.com/images/gunfacts.pdf.
195 Jack Kelly, "Moms Make Too Much of Guns," The Baltimore Sun (May 22,
2001).
196 Liz Marlantes, "Democrats tone down gun-control stance: After years of
pushing restrictions, they're on a new quest to capture southern votes," The
Christian Science Monitor (May 10, 2002).
197 Noam Scheiber, "The Dems abandon gun control: Gun shy," The New Republic
Online (January 24, 2001).
198 Susan Page, "Democrats sing new tune on gun control," USA Today (August
13, 2001).
199 Evelyn Theiss, "Clinton blames losses on NRA," The (Cleveland) Plain
Dealer (January 14, 1995).
200 President Bill Clinton, State of the Union Address (January 24, 1995).
201 The White House, Office of the Press Secretary, "Remarks by the
President and the First Lady on Gun Control Legislation," White House
Briefing Room (April 27, 1999).
202 President Bill Clinton on ABC's Good Morning America (June 4, 1999).
203 Brady O'Leary, "Fire Power: Surprising poll results and election returns
show that the National Rifle Association had a lot more to do with November
8 than most pundits realize," Campaigns & Elections (December/January 1995),
pp. 32-34.
204 Michelle Malkin, "Feminization of gun debate drowns out sober analysis,"
Seattle Times (June 23, 1998).
205 "Election 98," Milwaukee Journal Sentinel (November 5, 1998).
206 "Ballot Issues," Chicago Sun-Times (November 10, 1994). Neal Knox,
"Referendums Defeated In Milwaukee, Kenosha," Online Report to the Firearms
Coalition (January 10, 1995).at http://www.rkba.org/knox/9jan95.
207 Josh Sugarman, The National Rifle Association: Money, Firepower and Fear
(1992) at http://www.vpc.org/nrainfo/chapter2.html.
208 Tanya Metaksa, "The Price of Appeasement," FrontPageMagazine.com
(October 24, 2000).
209 Daniel Merkle, "America: It's Our Right to Bear Arms: ABCNEWS.com Poll
Finds Most Support Individuals' Right to Own Guns," ABCNEWS.com (May 14,
2002). The poll of 1,028 adults was conducted between May 8 and 12 of 2002.
The poll found that after hearing the text of the Second Amendment verbatim,
73 percent of the American public viewed the amendment as guaranteeing an
individual right. Only 20 percent thought the amendment guaranteed the right
of a state to maintain a militia.
210 "Zogby American Values Poll Results," The Washington Times (March 28,
2000).
211 Research 2000 of Rockville, Maryland. This survey was conducted from
January 30 through February 1, 2002. A total of 1101 likely voters
nationally were interviewed by telephone.
212 Nancy Wong, "American Confidence in Bush Remains High Post Attacks,"
Harris Interactive (October 3, 2001) at
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/news/allnewsbydate.asp?NewsID=369.
213 "Poll: Majority Support Guns in the Cockpit," U.S. Newswire (May 14,
2002) at http://www.usnewswire.com/topnews/first/0514-127.html.
214 Carla Crowder, "Gun-Control Opinions Unchanged," Denver Rocky Mountain
News (May 20, 1999). The Colorado News Poll was conducted between May 6 - 16
of 1999 for the Denver Rocky Mountain News and News4 in Denver. Results were
based on 600 random phone interviews with Coloradans.
215 Ibid.
Bert Hyman
<skel...@cogeco.ca> wrote:
> Now that an idiot has posted obviously inaccurate data from a
> clearly biased source,
Oh well.
Good luck.
Mr. Albritton
Mr. Albritton
page for further cites and references.
There was no "claim" in my original statement.
All of what I said was DATA.
WRITTEN, CITED, AND VERIFIABLE DATA.
"Mr. Albritton" <albri...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hfmgjq$k9d$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Mr. Albritton
Because you are OBVIOUSLY too damn lazy to scroll down to the bottom of the
fscking page.
Dip$hit.
"Mr. Albritton" <albri...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hfmgiq$k1q$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Trevor Wilson
> Since you want to piss and whine about cited sources....
> All cited sources from this cite:
> http://gunowners.org/fs0404.htm
>
**Here, again, is what is considered proof, by sensible people:
Police, FBI or reputable media reports. Anything else is wild speculation.
Your claim is rejected.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Peter Skelton
I heartily recommend H.G. Frankfurt's "On Bullshit" to reduce
your confusion. (about five bucks from Amazon)
Peter Skelton
Mr. Albritton
"Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:7o80bnF...@mid.individual.net...
edi...@netpath.net
> Rifles against our military will not cut it, son, and you sure ain't a "well regulated militia".
Bullshit. IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN have proven that "the world's only
superpower" is easily defeated by irregular warfare by people armed
with rifles and very little else initially. The rifles allow them to
capture from "the world's only superpower" whatever else they need -
not only weapons and ammo, but also food, medicine, explosives,
whatever. What else do you think the regime's failure to win
Afghanistan in longer than World War II means?
Scout
> Mr. Albritton wrote:
>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *many* people as an assault rifle.
>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *surely* as an assault rifle.
>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *easily* as an assault rifle.
>>>
>>> If guns did not exist there would be 30,000 sharp pencil murders
>>> every year.
>>
>
> sources will be acceptable. Here's the deal:
No matter what is produced you will ignore it, deny it, or find exucses to
do so.
You have already admitted that you will ignore such data even if it is
exactly what you asked for.
Trevor Wilson
> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> Mr. Albritton wrote:
>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *many* people as an assault rifle.
>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *surely* as an assault rifle.
>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *easily* as an assault rifle.
>>>>
>>>> If guns did not exist there would be 30,000 sharp pencil murders
>>>> every year.
>>>
>>> Guns PROTECT 2.5 MILLION lives every year.
>>
>> **Prove it. Evidence from the FBI, police reports, or REPUTABLE media
>> sources will be acceptable. Here's the deal:
>
> No matter what is produced you will ignore it, deny it, or find
> exucses to do so.
**NOT ONCE, has the evidence been presented, so I can hardly reject what has
not been presented. Nor can you claim I have rejected what has not been
presented.
>
> You have already admitted that you will ignore such data even if it is
> exactly what you asked for.
**Hardly.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
frank
wrote:
> he he he...
>
> The gun goofball philosophy:
>
> A sharp pencil can kill as *surely* as an assault rifle.
> A sharp pencil can kill as *easily* as an assault rifle.
>
> If guns did not exist there would be 30,000 sharp pencil murders every year.
>
So that's why they took the pencil sharpener out of the deparment. OK
besides the fact the professor couldn't figure out how to use it.
Mr. Albritton
>
> Police, FBI or reputable media reports. Anything else is wild speculation.
>
> Your claim is rejected.
You obviously haven't read the list of sources.
MANY are legitimate law enforcement agencies and colleges of criminal
studies.
Your rejection is noted - and found to be *once again* irrelevant.
I'll post them again....
Even though you'll find another EXCUSE to ignore them again.
Trevor Wilson
> On Dec 8, 3:40 pm, "Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D." <d...@coldine.edu> wrote:
>> Rifles against our military will not cut it, son, and you sure ain't
>> a "well regulated militia".
>
> Bullshit. IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN have proven that "the world's only
> superpower" is easily defeated by irregular warfare by people armed
> with rifles and very little else initially.
**Bollocks. All they have proved is that the US is reluctant to engage an
enemy fully, without worrying about colateral damage. Hiroshima proved
EXACTLY what the US military can do, if necessary. Then, of course, there
are other skirmishes of note:
* Basra Road
* Gulf War I
* Gulf War II
The only issues that caused problems were those concerning the political
fallout, of total subjugation. The US military (and it's allies) was EASILY
capable of subjugating Iraq.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
jf...@ix.netcom.com
<tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>Scout wrote:
>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> Mr. Albritton wrote:
>>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *many* people as an assault rifle.
>>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *surely* as an assault rifle.
>>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *easily* as an assault rifle.
>>>>>
>>>>> If guns did not exist there would be 30,000 sharp pencil murders
>>>>> every year.
>>>>
>>>> Guns PROTECT 2.5 MILLION lives every year.
>>>
>>> **Prove it. Evidence from the FBI, police reports, or REPUTABLE media
>>> sources will be acceptable. Here's the deal:
>>
>> No matter what is produced you will ignore it, deny it, or find
>> exucses to do so.
>
>**NOT ONCE, has the evidence been presented, so I can hardly reject what has
>not been presented.
Yes it has.
>Nor can you claim I have rejected what has not been presented.
>
Yes he can and you have rejected what hast been presented.
>>
>> You have already admitted that you will ignore such data even if it is
>> exactly what you asked for.
>
>**Hardly.
Exactly you have and you continue to.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 08:55:54 GMT
Local: Sun, Dec 21 2003 4:55 am
Subject: Re: Defensive use of firearms
**Not really, but I find the 80,000 figure possibly plausible.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au>
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 10:20:27 GMT
Local: Sun, Mar 21 2004 6:20 am
Subject: Re: Gun control laws do work....
**Yep. I'm betting that the real number lies between 2,000 and 5,000.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au>
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 10:23:02 GMT
Local: Sun, Mar 21 2004 6:23 am
Subject: Re: Gun control laws do work....
**Nope. the 200 number is hard data. FBI verified data.
**Not at all. I have always said that the number lies somewhere
between 200
and 80,000. My thoughts are that between 2,000 and 5,000 is about
right.
Newsgroups: aus.politics.guns, talk.politics.guns, aus.politics
From: Trevor Wilson <trevor@_SPAMBLOCK_rageaudio.com.au>
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 17:55:08 +1000
Local: Sat, Sep 1 2007 3:55 am
Subject: Re: The Anti-gun Agenda
**Now we're up to 260 DGUs PA, or thereabouts.
**OK. So what is the present figure? 260 or thereabouts?
On Sep 2, 8:53 am, Trevor Wilson <trevor@_SPAMBLOCK_rageaudio.com.au>
wrote:
I say that there are 200 DGUs (approximately) each year in the US.
Newsgroups: aus.politics.guns, talk.politics.guns, aus.politics
From: Trevor Wilson <trevor@_SPAMBLOCK_rageaudio.com.au>
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 08:53:47 +1000
Local: Sat, Sep 1 2007 6:53 pm
Subject: Re: The Anti-gun Agenda
I say that there are 200 DGUs (approximately) each year in the US.
On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:35:39 +1000, Trevor Wilson
<trevor@_SPAMBLOCK_rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
**Indeed it does. By approximately 500-600% in fact. That leaves us
with something more than 1,200 DGUs PA.
**Yep. Let's be generous and call it 3,500 PA.
On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:35:39 +1000, Trevor Wilson
<trevor@_SPAMBLOCK_rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
**That leaves us with something more than 1,200 DGUs PA.
My present estimate is about 3,000 DGUs PA.
**I readily accept that there are probably more than 200 DGUs in the
US each year. The figure is likely to be less than a few thousand each
year, given the consistent inability of any hard data to be presented.
Newsgroups: aus.politics.guns, talk.politics.guns, aus.politics
From: Trevor Wilson <trevor@_SPAMBLOCK_rageaudio.com.au>
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 14:29:37 +1000
Local: Mon, Sep 3 2007 12:29 am
Subject: Re: The Anti-gun Agenda
**The FBI numbers are correct. If you have data which invalidates
theirs, then present it.
**The FBI data is correct.
**If you wish. A rough estimate will do fine. Let's call it 100 then.
That makes 300 DGUs each yea rin the US. Sounds fair to me.
On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:22:40 +1000, Trevor Wilson
<trevor@_SPAMBLOCK_rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
** I have now revised that figure downwards, after further
investigation.
On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:54:13 +1000, Trevor Wilson
<trevor@_SPAMBLOCK_rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
** Our total os now 3,400 DGUs PA in the US.
Trevor Wilson
>> **Here, again, is what is considered proof, by sensible people:
>>
>> Police, FBI or reputable media reports. Anything else is wild
>> speculation. Your claim is rejected.
>
> You obviously haven't read the list of sources.
> MANY are legitimate law enforcement agencies and colleges of criminal
> studies.
**Once again, you have failed to read what I suggested was reasonable proof
of your claim. You have failed, yet again, to supply that evidence.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
jf...@ix.netcom.com
<tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>Scout wrote:
>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> Mr. Albritton wrote:
>>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *many* people as an assault rifle.
>>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *surely* as an assault rifle.
>>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *easily* as an assault rifle.
>>>>>
>>>>> If guns did not exist there would be 30,000 sharp pencil murders
>>>>> every year.
>>>>
>>>> Guns PROTECT 2.5 MILLION lives every year.
>>>
>>> **Prove it. Evidence from the FBI, police reports, or REPUTABLE media
>>> sources will be acceptable. Here's the deal:
>>
>> No matter what is produced you will ignore it, deny it, or find
>> exucses to do so.
>
>**NOT ONCE, has the evidence been presented, so I can hardly reject what has
>not been presented. Nor can you claim I have rejected what has not been
>presented.
>
Yes the evidence has been presented over and over again and you have
seen it yet you still reject that which proves your assertions
completely wrong:
WOUNDED
Los Angeles Times, Los Angeles, CA, 12/23/01
State: CA
American Rifleman Issue: 3/1/2002
A GUN SHOP EMPLOYEE IN ALHAMBRA, CALIFORNIA, shot and killed
one of four men when they attempted to rob the store. The employee was
working in the office of the Euro Arms Gun Store one Friday morning
when he heard a commotion, said Sheriff's Deputy Roberta Granek. When
he exited the office, one of the robbers confronted him, and the
employee shot him with a semi-automatic rifle. The wounded man's
cohorts fled the store, but police later apprehended two of them.
The Clarksdale Press Register, Clarksdale, Miss., 10/29/01
State: MS
American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2002
Bobby Wolfe was locking the front door of his Moon Lake,
Miss., store one night when a man came around the icebox near the
door, pointed a gun and demanded money. "He had a gun in his hand, and
the other hand was over his face," Wolfe recalled. The storekeeper
dropped and pulled a, 38-cal. revolver from his pocket. "We think the
robbers shot first and Mr. Wolfe returned fire; 'stated Cuohoma County
Sheriff Andrew Thompson of the exchange that followed. When Wolfe took
off running for his nearby home, he encountered a second gunman who
began firing at him. "He shot two or three times, and I shot one more
time; 'said Wolfe. Within five minutes of the robbery, one gunman was
dead, Wolfe was wounded. and police picked up three suspects-one of
whom was mortally wounded-making a getaway Wolfe later said of the
men, whom he recognized, "... I'm sure they intended to kill me
because they know I'd recognize them."
Rockford Register Star, Rockford, Ill., 9/19/2001
State: IL
American Rifleman Issue: 12/1/2001
On a Tuesday afternoon, Rockford, Ill., barber William Cross
was cutting hair as he has for 34 years, when two masked men entered
his shop. One man pointed a gun at Cross and said, "Give it up!" When
Cross asked what was happening, the armed man fired a shot, just
missing the barber's head. Cross responded by reaching into a drawer
for his own gun. His first shot knocked the robber to the floor, but
he was still holding onto his gun. Cross then tried to shoot the gun
out of the suspect's hand and thinks he was successful, as the man
finally dropped his gun. "That's not a good feeling, looking down a
gun barrel," Cross said later. Winnebago County sheriff's deputies
took the injured gunman into custody and they arrested a second man
who was running away from the scene. The barber was shocked when
police told him the name of the wounded would-be robber. Cross had
been cutting his hair for years.
The Tennessean, Nashville, Tenn., 9/11/2001
State: TN
American Rifleman Issue: 12/1/2001
Nashville, Tenn., cab driver had his worst fear come true when
a fare he picked up early one morning pushed an object into his back
and demanded money. The cabbie had become nervous when the man began
making rapid requests. The driver reached for his gun for assurance.
When his passenger attempted to rob him, the cabbie gave him some
money, then fired at him. The wounded robber left the cab, leaving the
blood-stained money behind. The suspect was arrested by police several
blocks away.
The Post and Courier, Charleston, SC, 7/27/01
State: SC
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2001
When Ryan Smith stopped his Nissan Xterra to ask a group of
people at a corner for directions, several men jumped into his
vehicle, and one man punched him in the face, according to harleston,
S.C., police. Smith then grabbed a .25-cal. pistol from his glove
compartment and shot his attacker who was later charged with attempted
carjacking. The wounded attacker had been charged only days earlier in
another incident in which he allegedly robbed a lost motorist at
knifepoint.
The Post and Courier, Charleston, SC, 7/27/01
State: SC
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2001
When Ryan Smith stopped his Nissan Xterra to ask a group of
people at a corner for directions, several men jumped into his
vehicle, and one man punched him in the face, according to harleston,
S.C., police. Smith then grabbed a .25-cal. pistol from his glove
compartment and shot his attacker who was later charged with attempted
carjacking. The wounded attacker had been charged only days earlier in
another incident in which he allegedly robbed a lost motorist at
knifepoint.
Rocky Mountain News, Denver, CO, 5/23/01
State: CO
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2001
Two armed men entered a southwest Denver home one night and
allegedly robbed the family residing there; a man, woman and their two
sons. According to Denver Police Lt. Jon Priest, the men pointed their
handguns at the father and demanded money. The nefarious duo then took
property from the home and, as they were leaving, family members
chased them out of the house. One of the victims grabbed a firearm and
a gun battle ensued leaving one of the suspects wounded.
The San Francisco Chronicle, San Francisco, CA, 5/28/01
State: CA
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2001
John Varney, of Novato, Calif., was shot and critically
wounded when he stormed into the Petaluma home where his ex-girlfriend
was staying. Eric Daviesson and his wife were sheltering Varney's
ex-girlfriend who had complained about domestic violence, said
Petaluma police Lt. Dave Sears. When Varney barged in via an unlocked
front door, he was immediately confronted by Daviesson. Varney
allegedly brandished a knife and moved toward Daviesson, who grabbed a
shotgun and shot him.
Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, Little Rock, AR, 3/3/01
State: AR
American Rifleman Issue: 6/1/2001
Joe Robertson's work day began as any other when he left home
to open his El Dorado, Ark., grocery store, but quickly turned surreal
when two armed robbers accosted him in the parking lot. Little did the
bandits know that Robertson carried a .357 Mag. revolver. In the gun
battle that ensued, Robertson was wounded, but the inept robbers fared
worse. One apparently hit the other with a fatal shotgun blast.
Robertson's wife later said of the incident, "God was with him."
Anchorage Daily News, Anchorage, AK, 2/2/01
State: AK
American Rifleman Issue: 4/1/2001
A Spenard, Alaska, motel clerk was alone at work early one
morning when a man burst in waving a gun and demanding money. "He
threw a gym bag down on the counter and said he wanted the whole
thing," reported the worker, who was armed with a .38-cal. handgun for
which he has a carry permit. The bandit's tenor intensified, however,
when he realized there was little cash to steal. "He said he was going
to kill me," said the clerk who, facing death, pulled the gun from his
vest and fired twice. He was forced to shoot again seconds later when
the man attempted to get up. The wounded, would-be robber finally
surrendered and was transported to a hospital under the watchful eye
of police. The robbery attempt marked the third such incident at the
motel in only a month.
WOUNDED
Dothan Eagle, Dothan, AL, 10/10/02
State: AL
American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2003
A newspaper carrier saved the day, and a man's life, when he
shot a man holding a gun to the head of a Birmingham, Ala.,
convenience store clerk during a robbery. Sam Harper was outside a
Chevron convenience store filling newspaper racks when he saw a man
put on a wig and burst into the store, screaming at clerk Tom Burnett
and pointing a shotgun at Burnett's head. Harper acted immediately by
drawing his own gun, entering the store and firing three times at the
gunman. The wounded robber dropped his shotgun but ran toward Harper,
who shot him twice more. "I just reacted," Harper said. "It was total
chaos, and it was pretty terrifying." Burnett credits Harper with
saving his life. "I was looking down the barrel of a shotgun, and a
shotgun don't miss," he said.
Las Vegas Sun, Las Vegas, NV, 10/08/02
State: NV
American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2003
A man was shot in the buttocks by an armed Las Vegas homeowner
when several men broke into a home in an attempted burglary. The shot
sent the would-be burglars running; one suspect jumped from a
second-story window. Police arrested four men, including the wounded
man, and charged them with burglary with use of a deadly weapon and
home invasion. North Las Vegas Police Lt. Victor Dunn said the
suspects were going through the neighborhood knocking on doors,
looking for an empty house.
Daily Oklahoman, Oklahoma City, OK, 07/17/02
State: OK
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2002
The owner of a Marietta, Okla., jewelry store shot and killed
one of two armed men who attempted to rob his store. Two men had
walked into Norton's Jewelry Store as Ronnie Norton and his wife,
Barbara, were preparing to close for the evening. Norton saw the
suspicious men approaching and slipped his .32-cal. handgun into his
belt. They asked to see a $2,500 wedding set, and Norton went to the
safe to retrieve the rings with one man following him. When Barbara
Norton saw that man reach into his pocket, she ran for the door but
was stopped by the other man who pulled a gun on her. Norton turned to
see what was going on, and the man with him pulled a handgun. When the
gunman ordered the storeowner to the floor, Norton feared he would be
shot in the back of the head. He made his move, and a struggle ensued
during which his assailant was fatally wounded. His attacker's
accomplice fired several shots at Norton, who returned fire with his
own gun. The second gunman and two accomplices waiting outside fled
the scene. Though frightened, the Nortons were uninjured. The
storeowner said he and his wife plan to reopen the store, but will
never feel completely safe again. "We are always going to be alert and
ready for something to happen," he said.
Savannah Morning News, Savannah, GA, 06/27/02
State: GA
American Rifleman Issue: 9/1/2002
Bartender Anne Werner was alone in the Anchorage Lounge,
waiting for the night crew from the paper mill to come in after work.
Suddenly there was a commotion at the package store adjoining the bar.
Werner looked through the window between the two businesses in time to
witness two masked men enter the store. One would-be robber lunged
toward clerk Richard Huggins, who pulled a gun and shot the man. The
second suspect pulled his wounded accomplice out of the store and then
fled. Werner said, "it sounded like a fight at the OK Corral, and
Richard [Huggins] was Wyatt Earp." When Savannah police arrived they
found suspect Jamison Dixon seriously wounded outside the shop. Dixon
died at the scene and police were still looking for the second
suspect.
The Trentonian, Trenton, NJ, 06/15/02
State: NJ
American Rifleman Issue: 9/1/2002
Two masked men entered a Trenton, N.J., area liquor store and
one, armed with a handgun, pushed the gun through a small window in
the cashier's glass enclosure, announced a robbery and demanded cash
from store owner Praveen Malhotra. The owner grabbed his own .357 Mag.
pistol and fired two shots, hitting the suspect in the chest and
sending the second robber fleeing. The wounded suspect, identified by
police as Steven Gudger, was taken to the hospital for treatment.
Gudger, an escapee from Riverfront Prison, faced charges of armed
robbery, aggravated assault and illegal possession of a weapon.
The Tennesean, Nashville, TN, 5/20/02
State: TN
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2002
A Forest Hills, Tenn., man shot and wounded two masked
burglars after they broke into his home. Roy Luckett was awakened
about 2 a.m. when his burglar alarm activated. He picked up his wife's
.38-cal. revolver loaded with 'snake shot' and searched the house.
Upon hearing a noise in the furnace room he opened the door and
discovered two shadowy figures skulking in the darkness. According to
police, the suspects were wearing masks and armed with rifles. Luckett
fired at the men, emptying the gun. He then ran upstairs to get his
.45-cal. pistol. Meanwhile, the pair of bandits tried to force open
Luckett's garage door so they could escape. They fired 14 shots from
at least one rifle into Patsy Lucketts sport-utility vehicle before
making their escape. The pair was later arrested when they sought
medical aid. Luckett says he has no idea why the bandits didnt leave
when his alarm sounded. "They were lucky I didn't take the .45," he
said. "No telling what would have happened. God just guided me through
that night."
The Wichita Eagle, Wichita, KS, 05/23/02
State: KS
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2002
A Wichita, Kan., smoke shop owner shot and wounded an armed
robber in his store after the man tried to shoot him. Lorenzo Harding,
owner of H&H Cigarette Shop, told police he was with a customer when
an armed man burst into his shop. The man reportedly pulled a mask
down to cover his face, said Sgt. Jeff Davis. "Initial reports are
that he was trying to fire the gun, but the gun jammed," Davis said.
The owner then pulled a handgun from under his counter and fired one
shot at the man.
The Star Press, Muncie, IN, 4/10/02
State: IN
American Rifleman Issue: 6/1/2002
A convicted bandit's latest crime spree was brought to a halt
by an armed store clerk in a Muncie, Ind., convenience store. A clerk
at Zipp's Deli told investigators a man [later identified as Willie
Brown] came into the store, told the clerk he had a gun in his jacket
and demanded money from the cash register. Brown allegedly got away
with some cash, but not before the clerk fired his own gun at the
robber, hitting him at least once. Police found the wounded man a few
minutes later in a nearby home. Money allegedly taken from the deli
was recovered, as well, according to authorities. Brown has two
previous convictions for robbery and burglary and was released from
prison last May, according to state Department of Correction records.
Richmond Times-Dispatch, Richmond, VA, 1/08/02
State: VA
American Rifleman Issue: 4/1/2002
Two men armed with handguns entered a Richmond, Virginia,
mini-mart and demanded money from the owner, who was alone in the
store. When the robbers began to pistol-whip the owner, he grabbed his
own pistol and shot one of his attackers. The wounded robber, fleeing
with cash and lottery tickets, collapsed on the sidewalk, and his
cohort escaped in a car. Police spokeswoman Jennifer Reilly said the
men matched descriptions of two who had held up other stores in South
Richmond the previous day.
RAN AWAY
Rockford Register Star, Rockford, IL, 11/19/03
State: IL
American Rifleman Issue: 3/1/2004
Mario Cassola and his sister Lia Mercuri, co-owners of Vinny's
Pizza in Rockford, Ill., are no strangers to crime. One of their
deliverymen has been beaten and robbed, and their restaurant had been
burglarized. When two armed men burst into the pizzeria one Monday
night, the brother-sister team fought back and won. After the men
entered the establishment, one man began beating Cassola about the
head with a hammer while the second man aimed a rifle at him. Cassola
shook off the blows and grabbed his assailant, then used him as a
human shield against the man with the rifle. While her brother held
the men's attention, Mercuri pulled out a gun and began firing. The
two bandits fled empty-handed. Police later recovered the hammer and
rifle and arrested Michael Buck and Vaughn Gulley in connection with
the crime.
Daily Local News, Westchester, Pennsylvania, 11/07/03
State: PA
American Rifleman Issue: 2/1/2004
Two armed men burst into a Coatesville, Pennsylvania, home and
demanded money from the two occupants in the living room. One of the
armed invaders went up to the master bedroom and threatened to shoot
or beat the couple in bed if they didn't hand over some money. The man
in bed, identified as Omar Reid, grabbed a pistol from the nightstand
drawer and shot the robber just as he shot at Reid. With one intruder
down, Reid then raced down the stairs where he encountered the second
man and they exchanged fire. The second home invader fled the scene.
Reid was not injured during the gunfire. The wounded invader was taken
to the hospital.
Antelope Valley Press, Palmdale, CA, 09/21/03
State: CA
American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2004
Two armed men entered Shamrock Liquor in Quartz Hill, Calif.,
wearing black masks over their faces. One of the masked bandits
pointed a gun at the clerk on duty, who reached into a drawer by the
counter, pulled a gun and fired at the men, hitting one would-be
robber in the chest. The suspects fled the store, and a man fitting
the description of the wounded robber was later located at a nearby
hospital where he was being treated for a bullet wound to the chest.
The second suspect was not located.
The Post-Standard, Syracuse, NY, 11/01/03
State: NY
American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2004
Two would-be robbers found their presence was most unwelcome
at a Syracuse, N.Y., restaurant. The owner of the Welcome Inn was in
the restaurant's kitchen when a masked man entered the establishment
and aimed a gun at him, demanding money. Ready to defend himself, the
innkeeper drew his own .45-cal. pistol and aimed it at the gunman, who
fled the restaurant with another man.
News and Record, Greensboro, NC, 10/17/03
State: NC
American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2004
Action Video store manager Ron Simpson says he knows guns. And
he knew the "gun" pointed at him in a store robbery was fake. A man
had approached the counter and pulled a gun from his waistband,
demanding money. Simpson, a Vietnam vet and gun aficionado, said the
gun resembled a 9 mm, but the muzzle was far too small to project a
bullet. "That is not a real gun," Simpson said. "This is a real gun,"
he added, pulling a .25-cal. handgun from his pocket. Simpson then
used a cordless phone to call the authorities. Caught in his 'fake
out,' the unarmed bandit fled when Simpson called the police.
The Sacramento Bee, Sacramento, CA, 08/31/03
State: CA
American Rifleman Issue: 12/1/2003
A bank robbery went awry when the suspects crashed their
getaway car in a Sacramento, Calif., suburb and took off running to
evade authorities. Ed Tippets was in his back yard, watching several
helicopters bear down on his neighborhood, obviously searching for
someone, when he noticed his dog, Charley, was acting strange. "That's
when I decided to get armed," he told authorities. Tippets recalled
that he went to the back of his house to load his gun and then began
searching room to room. Moving toward the kitchen, Tippets noticed a
shoulder in the doorway of his laundry room. "I saw a pistol pointing
at me, so I started firing," he said. The homeowner then ran outside
where he was ordered to the ground by police. The suspect, later
identified as Jermain Blair, fled the house and tried to escape by
jumping several fences. Blair confronted two police officers who had
given chase and was shot in the leg. A police task force is
investigating 13 other local bank robberies that may be linked to
Blair.
The Journal Gazette, Fort Wayne, IN, 08/27/03
State: IN
American Rifleman Issue: 11/1/2003
A Fort Wayne, Ind., liquor store clerk did more than cover for
a coworker when he worked an extra shift one Monday night. He may have
saved the lives of everyone in the store. The employee had come to
work at the Cap 'n Cork liquor store armed with a gun he carries for
personal protection as he rides a bike to and from the job. According
to police reports, a man entered the liquor store carrying a rifle,
which he then fired into the air in an apparent robbery attempt. The
armed employee then pulled his own gun and fatally shot the would-be
robber. A possible accomplice of the gunman fled the store after the
shooting.
Sun-Sentinel, Fort Lauderdale, FL, 07/31/03
State: FL
American Rifleman Issue: 11/1/2003
A Pompano Beach, Fla., jewelry store owner, Alfredo Guido, was
buzzing in a customer when four masked men pushed their way into the
store. The owner's son, Meliton Guido, grabbed a handgun from under
the counter and hid behind the cash register. One of the masked
intruders then pointed a gun at the store owner's head. Another of the
armed bandits saw that the younger Guido was armed and fired at him.
The owner's son fired back and struck one of the assailants. The son
then yelled for his father to jump over the counter and, as he did,
the four robbers tried to leave the store; but the door was locked.
The younger Guido hit the buzzer, and the men fled empty-handed. The
wounded robber collapsed outside the store and later died. Police were
still searching for the other suspects.
Arkansas Democrat Gazette, Little Rock, AR, 06/16/03
State: AR
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2003
Little Rock, Ark., man saved his own life late one night when
three people broke into his house. Upon seeing the intruders, Eric
Penny rushed into another room to retrieve his pistol when one man
fired a rifle in his direction. Unhurt, Penny returned fire, striking
all three. The armed assailant was shot in the head and later died of
his wounds. His two alleged accomplices, who fled the scene after
being shot, were located at a nearby medical clinic.
Denton Chronicle-Record, Denton, TX 06/17/03
State: OK
American Rifleman Issue: 9/1/2003
Stephen Heller was visiting with a woman who had called him
and then come over to his home when two masked men armed with a pistol
broke in, beat him and tried to tie him up. During the struggle,
Heller used his knife to cut one man and then grabbed his gun and
fatally shot the other man, later identified as Scott Howard. The
woman, Wyndie Odom, fled on foot with the other assailant, identified
as Travis Lee Smith. Odom's car was still in Heller's garage as he had
closed the garage door after she pulled in. Detective Sgt. Roger White
said it was believed the woman had brought the men with her to rob
Heller and that they had hidden in her trunk when she pulled into
Heller's garage. Odom and Smith were later arrested in Ardmore, Okla.
Tampa Tribune, Tampa, FL, 06/09/03
State: FL
American Rifleman Issue: 9/1/2003
A Tampa, Fla., resident shot and wounded a man who attacked
him as he entered his home early one morning. Michael Perdue was
returning to his home at 5 a.m. when a masked man forced him inside
the house. Perdue was able to retrieve his gun and shoot the intruder
three times before the man fled. Albert Lee Jones was arrested hours
later when he sought medical treatment for multiple gunshot wounds.
Jones was charged with aggravated battery, attempted armed robbery and
armed burglary.
The News Tribune, Tacoma, WA, 06/03/03
State: WA
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2003
A 64-year-old Tacoma, Wash., resident confined to his bed
managed to defend himself when attacked by an intruder. He had just
heard his wife leave the house when there was a loud bang, and then
the back door was kicked in. The homeowner grabbed his gun in one hand
and the phone to dial 9-1-1 with the other. That's when a strange man
entered his room, hiding his face with a handkerchief and intoning,
"I'm going to get you." According to the resident, "That's when I shot
him." The wounded intruder and an accomplice fled, and police alerted
area hospitals. The homeownerwho said hes kept a gun in his home for
protection for years, but had not fired it outside the range before
the incidentsaid, "I'm thoroughly convinced this guy would have killed
me."
The Oakland Press, Pontiac, MI, 05/13/03
State: MI
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2003
A 75-year-old Independence Township, Mich., man was sitting on
his couch watching television when he heard a loud noise. The
homeowner went to investigate, and as he entered the kitchen he
discovered three men coming in his back door, which had been kicked
open. There was an exchange of gunfire between the resident and
intruders, and the would-be burglars fled. Unfortunately, the man
wasn't able to provide good descriptions of the intruders for police.
St. Louis Post-Dispatch, St. Louis, MO, 01/16/03
State: MO
American Rifleman Issue: 4/1/2003
Two masked men entered the Michigan Market in St. Louis, Mo.,
just around lunchtime, and one man pointed a sawed-off shotgun at the
head of storeowner Martin McLafferty. The owner responded by knocking
away the gun in his face and grabbing his own pistol. He then shot one
of the gunmen, and the suspects fled in a pickup truck. Police found
gravely wounded suspect Charles Jackson shortly after the attempted
robbery. His accomplice, Damon Hayes, was arrested, as well. Jackson
died while in custody, and because he died during the commission of a
felony, his accomplice, Hayes, was charged with murder in addition to
the first-degree robbery charge.
New Castle News, New Castle, PA, 01/23/03
State: PA
American Rifleman Issue: 4/1/2003
A Volant, Pa., man was having a bothersome morning because
someone kept calling and hanging up. Then the man received a call from
a neighbor telling him he'd seen six people get out of a car with
hoods, scarves and latex gloves and were now sneaking around his
house. The homeowner surprised the group of bandits when they broke
in, and he held one of the intruders at gunpoint for police. The
others fled the scene in a green Buick. Police made five arrests, and
the homeowner recognized one of the suspects as a boy who attended his
church and had spent time with his family in his house. "I felt
terrible," he said when he recognized the suspect. "I treated the kid
like a son. Everyone was right. They told me not to bring him home."
Kingsport Times-News, Kingsport, TN, 01/20/03
State: TN
American Rifleman Issue: 4/1/2003
A masked man armed with knives approached a pharmacist and
demanded narcotics, but the pharmacist dispensed lead instead. The
suspect entered Marcum's Pharmacy in Kingsport, Tenn., at 2:10 p.m.
and approached pharmacy owner Carl Marcum, demanding the narcotic
drugs OxyContin and Percocet. Marcum pulled his .38-cal. handgun and
shot the suspect, who fled out the back door and drove off in a Buick.
Police notified local hospitals to be on the lookout for a man
suffering from a gunshot wound. Two hours later the suspect, Jeffery
Jessee, was arrested at a local hospital, where he was treated and
released. Jessee was charged with aggravated robbery.
WOUNDED
Times-News, Hendersonville, NC, 12/28/03
State: NC
American Rifleman Issue: 3/1/2004
A 34-year-old man tried to make good on threats he had made to
his ex-wife. Despite a court order demanding he stay away from his ex
and her home, the man broke into her house. The woman was fearful, as
her ex-husband had previously called her several times threatening to
kill her. She immediately picked up the phone and began to dial 9-1-1.
The intruder hit her in the face and knocked the phone out of her
hand. Another man, who lives in the home, picked up a .30-30 Win.
rifle and shot the woman's attacker in the leg. The wounded man was
airlifted to a local hospital. Sheriff's deputies say they had
responded to the same house numerous times prior to the shooting.
Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, Pittsburgh, PA, 01/04/04
State: PA
American Rifleman Issue: 3/1/2004
Two men entered Ann's Market one night in an apparent robbery
attempt, and one of them was shot by a store employee. Inside the
store, one of the would-be robbers brandished a handgun. Upon seeing
the gun, the clerk on duty pulled a firearm and shot his assailant.
The accomplice then fled the store. The wounded crook faces robbery
and firearms violations charges -- once he is released from the
hospital.
The Philadelphia Inquirer, Philadelphia, PA, 12/18/03
State: PA
American Rifleman Issue: 3/1/2004
Alex Patlakh, owner of Rush Jewelers in North Philadelphia,
shot one of a pair of thugs during an attempted robbery and was
wounded in the struggle when a bullet grazed his head and another hit
him in the shoulder. It was not the first business robbery the Patlakh
family had experienced. In 1999, Patlakh's son, Brogdan, was killed
when his jewelry store was robbed. This latest attempt occurred just
before 9:45 a.m. Two men stood at the door of the shop and motioned
that they wished to enter. Patlakh pressed a buzzer to open the door
and the men came inside, asking to look at some jewelry. One man
suddenly drew a gun, and a struggle ensued. Shots were exchanged,
leaving Patlakh and one of the robbers wounded. The second robber
escaped.
Daily Local News, Westchester, Pennsylvania, 11/07/03
State: PA
American Rifleman Issue: 2/1/2004
Two armed men burst into a Coatesville, Pennsylvania, home and
demanded money from the two occupants in the living room. One of the
armed invaders went up to the master bedroom and threatened to shoot
or beat the couple in bed if they didn't hand over some money. The man
in bed, identified as Omar Reid, grabbed a pistol from the nightstand
drawer and shot the robber just as he shot at Reid. With one intruder
down, Reid then raced down the stairs where he encountered the second
man and they exchanged fire. The second home invader fled the scene.
Reid was not injured during the gunfire. The wounded invader was taken
to the hospital.
Antelope Valley Press, Palmdale, CA, 09/21/03
State: CA
American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2004
Two armed men entered Shamrock Liquor in Quartz Hill, Calif.,
wearing black masks over their faces. One of the masked bandits
pointed a gun at the clerk on duty, who reached into a drawer by the
counter, pulled a gun and fired at the men, hitting one would-be
robber in the chest. The suspects fled the store, and a man fitting
the description of the wounded robber was later located at a nearby
hospital where he was being treated for a bullet wound to the chest.
The second suspect was not located.
The Philadelphia Inquirer, Philadelphia, PA, 10/30/03
State: PA
American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2004
Norman Woodall shot and killed one of two men who broke into
his home around 1:40 a.m. Woodall told police that one of the men had
been armed with a gun when the two kicked open his front door and
stormed in, apparently intending to rob him. Woodall struggled with
the would-be robbers and fired his own gun, striking one of the men in
the face and causing the second man to flee. The wounded assailant,
later identified as Darnell Woodward, was pronounced dead at the
scene.
The Huntsville Times, Huntsville, AL, 09/15/03
State: LA
American Rifleman Issue: 12/1/2003
In an odd turn of events, a Decatur, La., man shot an intruder
and then administered first aid to the wounded suspect. Ronald Kirk
was awakened just before dawn one Sunday by an intruder. Kirk shot the
would-be burglar in the leg and dialed 9-1-1. The homeowner then
applied pressure to the wound to slow the bleeding until police
arrived. The suspect, Robert Lee Goode, was taken to the hospital, and
later charged with second-degree burglary and possession of burglar's
tools.
San Antonio Express-News, San Antonio, TX, 08/28/03
State: TX
American Rifleman Issue: 11/1/2003
A home invasion in San Antonio, Texas, ended when the invader,
James Adam Garcia, was killed by the homeowner, Richard Gomez, Sr.
Gomez's son, Richard, Jr., told police he had been in the living room
watching TV when someone knocked at the door. When Gomez answered, a
man pushed his way inside saying, "This is a jack." The intruder,
later identified as Garcia, then repeated the phrase before shooting
the younger Gomez in the leg. Garcia then ordered the wounded man
toward the back of the house. The elder Gomez was in a bedroom with
his wife when he heard the gunshot. He grabbed a .357-cal. revolver
and left the bedroom to investigate. When Garcia saw Gomez, Sr., he
fired at him, striking the elder Gomez in the chest. The homeowner
then raised his gun and fired two shots at Garcia, killing him.
Sun-Sentinel, Fort Lauderdale, FL, 07/31/03
State: FL
American Rifleman Issue: 11/1/2003
A Pompano Beach, Fla., jewelry store owner, Alfredo Guido, was
buzzing in a customer when four masked men pushed their way into the
store. The owner's son, Meliton Guido, grabbed a handgun from under
the counter and hid behind the cash register. One of the masked
intruders then pointed a gun at the store owner's head. Another of the
armed bandits saw that the younger Guido was armed and fired at him.
The owner's son fired back and struck one of the assailants. The son
then yelled for his father to jump over the counter and, as he did,
the four robbers tried to leave the store; but the door was locked.
The younger Guido hit the buzzer, and the men fled empty-handed. The
wounded robber collapsed outside the store and later died. Police were
still searching for the other suspects.
The Daily Oklahoman, Oklahoma City, OK, 06/18/03
State: OK
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2003
It was not the first time R&R Jewelers of Oklahoma City, Okla.
had been robbed. When an armed man demanded money from storeowner
Larry Rowell, he complied and gave the miscreant some cash. But then
the robber turned to the diamond display case. In the ensuing exchange
of gunfire Rowell was wounded in the chest and the robber was killed.
Tampa Tribune, Tampa, FL, 06/09/03
State: FL
American Rifleman Issue: 9/1/2003
A Tampa, Fla., resident shot and wounded a man who attacked
him as he entered his home early one morning. Michael Perdue was
returning to his home at 5 a.m. when a masked man forced him inside
the house. Perdue was able to retrieve his gun and shoot the intruder
three times before the man fled. Albert Lee Jones was arrested hours
later when he sought medical treatment for multiple gunshot wounds.
Jones was charged with aggravated battery, attempted armed robbery and
armed burglary.
Southwest News, Bellaire, TX, 05/13/03
State: TX
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2003
A south Houston, Texas, couple was loading items into their
car in front of their home when two young men approached them and
struck up a conversation. The woman said the men made her
uncomfortable, and she immediately backed away from them. She noticed
that as one man kept talking the other was moving behind her husband
and kept his hand deep in his pants pocket. The woman ran inside and
called 9-1-1 and then looked out her front window. One of the men now
had a gun pointed at her husband's head. She then ran into another
room and picked up a gun just as the second man burst into her house.
He came straight at her, and she fired the gun, striking him in the
arm. The wounded man ran from the house, shouting to his partner that
he'd been shot. The nefarious duo then ran off in opposite directions.
Police had the two 16-year-old suspects in custody within minutes.
The News Tribune, Tacoma, WA, 06/03/03
State: WA
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2003
A 64-year-old Tacoma, Wash., resident confined to his bed
managed to defend himself when attacked by an intruder. He had just
heard his wife leave the house when there was a loud bang, and then
the back door was kicked in. The homeowner grabbed his gun in one hand
and the phone to dial 9-1-1 with the other. That's when a strange man
entered his room, hiding his face with a handkerchief and intoning,
"I'm going to get you." According to the resident, "That's when I shot
him." The wounded intruder and an accomplice fled, and police alerted
area hospitals. The homeownerwho said hes kept a gun in his home for
protection for years, but had not fired it outside the range before
the incidentsaid, "I'm thoroughly convinced this guy would have killed
me."
The Arizona Republic, Phoenix, AZ, 05/20/03
State: AZ
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2003
A Phoenix, Ariz., construction equipment company had been hit
by a string of burglaries, so the owners decided to take turns
standing guard at night to ward off any more thieves. Early one
Tuesday morning Douglas Click, one of the owners at Arizona Hi-Lift,
was guarding the company armed with a shotgun. He confronted two men
who were stealing items from the equipment yard, and they attacked him
with a metal rod, according to Phoenix Police Detective Tony Morales.
Click responded by firing at his attackers, and one was fatally
wounded. Detective Morales said no charges would be filed against
Click as, "he was in fear of his life and he was being attacked."
Los Angeles Times, Los Angeles, CA, 02/27/03
State: CA
American Rifleman Issue: 6/1/2003
Vanessa Perrigoue had just taken her 4-year-old terrier,
Ethan, out for a morning walk in their Laguna Niguel neighborhood when
two large dogs jumped the smaller dog. Perrigoue screamed and
attempted to rescue Ethan, but the dogs, a pit bull mix and Labrador
mix, continued their vicious attack. Upon hearing his wife's screams,
Joseph Perrigoue grabbed his .45-cal. handgun and went to her aid. The
Perrigoues' dog, Ethan, had been killed and his attackers had run off.
Perrigoue followed the dogs' bloody tracks back to a nearby apartment.
When he knocked on the door, both dogs jumped out an open window and
attacked him. Perrigoue defended himself, shooting both dogs.
Animal-control officers took the wounded dogs away and attempted to
contact their owner, whom neighbors said had been out of town for
several days.
The Tampa Tribune, Tampa, FL, 02/01/03
State: FL
American Rifleman Issue: 5/1/2003
Teresa Castellano and her 6-year-old daughter, Alysa, were
visiting Alysa's friend, Kaitlyn, at her home when terror erupted
inside. The girls were watching TV and began laughing loudly at
something they had seen. The abrupt laughter apparently startled the
dogs in the house, which began growling and barking. Sensing the two
rottweilers and pit bull were not playing around, Castellano tried to
get the girls to be quiet, but the dogs attacked them, biting Kaitlyn
and Alysa. Castellano was able to distract the dogs, which allowed the
girls time to run to safety at a neighbor's house, but by then
Castellano herself was being attacked. Two neighbors armed with
handguns fired on the dogs to get them to release the woman. One of
the armed men was bitten in the leg during the struggle. One dog was
killed, and the other two retreated back into the house. Authorities
found one dog wounded and the other lying on the floor inside. They
were taken to a local animal shelter and later euthanized. Castellano
and her daughter each required 100 stitches to close their wounds, and
Kaitlyn needed 20 stitches.
St. Louis Post-Dispatch, St. Louis, MO, 01/16/03
State: MO
American Rifleman Issue: 4/1/2003
Two masked men entered the Michigan Market in St. Louis, Mo.,
just around lunchtime, and one man pointed a sawed-off shotgun at the
head of storeowner Martin McLafferty. The owner responded by knocking
away the gun in his face and grabbing his own pistol. He then shot one
of the gunmen, and the suspects fled in a pickup truck. Police found
gravely wounded suspect Charles Jackson shortly after the attempted
robbery. His accomplice, Damon Hayes, was arrested, as well. Jackson
died while in custody, and because he died during the commission of a
felony, his accomplice, Hayes, was charged with murder in addition to
the first-degree robbery charge.
KILLED
Clarion-Ledger, Jackson, Mississippi, 12/02/03
State: MS
American Rifleman Issue: 2/1/2004
A Madison County, Mississippi, woman shot and killed her
attacker during a home invasion. The woman had answered her door late
one evening when a man armed with a gun forced his way inside. "He
physically assaulted her," reported Madison County Sheriff Toby
Trowbridge. The homeowner managed to pull her gun just as her attacker
drew his. The home invader, shot in the abdomen, ran from the house
and collapsed in the driveway, according to police reports. A
suspected accomplice drove away in a car and has not been located. The
homeowner was taken to the hospital suffering from a gunshot wound to
her side, and was reported to be in stable condition.
The Forum, Fargo, ND, 10/30/03
State: ND
American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2004
Kim Fedje shot and killed two dogs that had viciously attacked
a herd of 13 llamas in her care before turning and charging her. Fedje
was out on her morning rounds feeding the animals. As she approached
the llamas, she noticed they were huddled together in a defensive
stance. That's when she saw two dogs circling the herd. When she
called out to the llamas, the dogs turned in her direction. "I could
hear them growling from 40 yards away," Fedje recalled. "They were
making a beeline for me. I thought I was dead." Fedje reacted by
firing her rifle at the attacking dogs. The first dog fell after two
or three shots, the second dog continued toward her until she had
emptied her gun. Fedje called her fianc� who went back out with her to
examine the animals. All 13 llamas had suffered dog bites. The dogs, a
labrador/rottweiler mix, belonged to a neighbor who had taken them out
for a walk the night before. Both animals had run off into a cornfield
and did not return.
The Philadelphia Inquirer, Philadelphia, PA, 10/30/03
State: PA
American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2004
Norman Woodall shot and killed one of two men who broke into
his home around 1:40 a.m. Woodall told police that one of the men had
been armed with a gun when the two kicked open his front door and
stormed in, apparently intending to rob him. Woodall struggled with
the would-be robbers and fired his own gun, striking one of the men in
the face and causing the second man to flee. The wounded assailant,
later identified as Darnell Woodward, was pronounced dead at the
scene.
Las Vegas Review-Journal, Las Vegas, NV, 09/18/03
State: NV
American Rifleman Issue: 12/1/2003
A Las Vegas, Nev., woman shot and killed her next-door
neighbor, whom she had previously caught burglarizing her home. Felipe
Starks was trying to evade police officers, who wanted him in
connection with a string of burglaries and a parole violation, by
using a crawl space above the two apartments. The woman had just
stepped out of her shower when Starks crashed through her ceiling.
Fearing for her life, she picked up a gun she had purchased after the
burglary in April, and fired several shots at Starks, who ran back
into his apartment. Police took him into custody, but he later died of
his wounds. Las Vegas homicide Lt. Tom Monahan said it appeared the
woman had cause to fear for her life. "If a man fell through the
ceiling right after you're getting out of the shower -- I'm told she
had just finished drying off -- I think it's reasonable that you would
be terrified," he said.
San Antonio Express-News, San Antonio, TX, 08/28/03
State: TX
American Rifleman Issue: 11/1/2003
A home invasion in San Antonio, Texas, ended when the invader,
James Adam Garcia, was killed by the homeowner, Richard Gomez, Sr.
Gomez's son, Richard, Jr., told police he had been in the living room
watching TV when someone knocked at the door. When Gomez answered, a
man pushed his way inside saying, "This is a jack." The intruder,
later identified as Garcia, then repeated the phrase before shooting
the younger Gomez in the leg. Garcia then ordered the wounded man
toward the back of the house. The elder Gomez was in a bedroom with
his wife when he heard the gunshot. He grabbed a .357-cal. revolver
and left the bedroom to investigate. When Garcia saw Gomez, Sr., he
fired at him, striking the elder Gomez in the chest. The homeowner
then raised his gun and fired two shots at Garcia, killing him.
The Commercial Appeal, Memphis, TN, 06/16/03
State: TN
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2003
David Ronald Washington, the alleged Memphis, Tenn., 'cat
burglar' tied to a string of residential burglaries, was killed during
an altercation with a homeowner. Washington, who had crept through a
window, came face to face with the resident who shot him during the
ensuing struggle. The burglary spree began in early May, and despite
stepped up patrols by police, they were unable to catch the criminal.
Burglary Bureau Maj. Billy Garrett said, "I hate for someone to lose
their life, but for all of those innocent victims out there -- they
don't have to worry about this particular guy."
The Washington Post, Washington, DC, 07/14/03
State: MD
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2003
A would-be robber had the bad fortune of choosing the wrong
restaurant to rob when he was shot and killed by an employee at the
Oriental Express restaurant in Laurel, Md. Prince George's County
police spokeswoman Cpl. Tammy Sparkman reported that a man entered the
restaurant about 9:30 p.m., drew a gun, demanded money and grabbed a
restaurant worker. Upon seeing a coworker held at gunpoint, another
employee, armed with a gun, ran out of the restaurant's kitchen and
fatally shot the robber.
The Daily Oklahoman, Oklahoma City, OK, 06/18/03
State: OK
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2003
It was not the first time R&R Jewelers of Oklahoma City, Okla.
had been robbed. When an armed man demanded money from storeowner
Larry Rowell, he complied and gave the miscreant some cash. But then
the robber turned to the diamond display case. In the ensuing exchange
of gunfire Rowell was wounded in the chest and the robber was killed.
The Record-Courier, Gardnerville, NV, 08/06/03
State: NV
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2003
A Gardnerville, Nev., home-owner shot and killed a man who
broke into his home. According to police reports, Walter Francis
Hetrick of Antioch, Calif., broke a window next to a door at 11:24
p.m. and then entered through the door. Charles Cryderman heard
someone breaking in and called police. The homeowner, armed with a
.357-cal. revolver, then shot the intruder when he entered his home.
Douglas County Sheriff's investigator Mike Biaggini said that a man
protecting 'his castle' against someone committing a felony such as
home invasion and burglary is allowed to defend himself. "He was in
fear of his life," Biaggini explained. "His whole family was there."
Times-Picayune, New Orleans, LA, 06/11/03
State: LA
American Rifleman Issue: 9/1/2003
A Central City hubcap store-owner shot and killed a man during
an armed robbery attempt. The owner of Meyer's Auto Parts told police
that a man entered his store around 6 p.m. and asked him several
questions about hubcaps. The man then appeared to look around the
store a few times, which made the owner nervous. The shopkeeper wisely
retrieved a gun from under the counter and discreetly tucked it into
the small of his back. Shortly thereafter, the suspect drew a small
Russian-made pistol and demanded money. The owner reported that he
reached behind his back in a deliberate motion as though he was going
for his wallet, but drew his gun instead. Police reported that the
owner apparently fired one time, hitting the robbery suspect in the
chest. The gunman ran from the store but collapsed nearby and was
later pronounced dead at the hospital.
The News Tribune, Tacoma, WA, 06/03/03
State: WA
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2003
A 64-year-old Tacoma, Wash., resident confined to his bed
managed to defend himself when attacked by an intruder. He had just
heard his wife leave the house when there was a loud bang, and then
the back door was kicked in. The homeowner grabbed his gun in one hand
and the phone to dial 9-1-1 with the other. That's when a strange man
entered his room, hiding his face with a handkerchief and intoning,
"I'm going to get you." According to the resident, "That's when I shot
him." The wounded intruder and an accomplice fled, and police alerted
area hospitals. The homeownerwho said hes kept a gun in his home for
protection for years, but had not fired it outside the range before
the incidentsaid, "I'm thoroughly convinced this guy would have killed
me."
Journal Star, Peoria, IL, 03/12/03
State: IL
American Rifleman Issue: 6/1/2003
The day after he was released from prison, where he served
time for domestic battery against Charolette Gates, Christopher Winder
broke into Gates' home. A fight broke out, and Gates reached for a
handgun to defend herself. Gates shot Winder once in the chest. Police
discovered Winder collapsed in a neighbor's back yard, and he was
later pronounced dead at the scene. No charges were expected to be
filed against Gates, according to Peoria County State's Attorney Kevin
Lyons. "Your home is your sanctuary, and if an intruder breaks in and
gets killed, then too bad for the intruder," Lyons said. "I am not
going to victimize her yet again because a recently released felon
decided to invade the quiet world of her home."
Los Angeles Times, Los Angeles, CA, 02/27/03
State: CA
American Rifleman Issue: 6/1/2003
Vanessa Perrigoue had just taken her 4-year-old terrier,
Ethan, out for a morning walk in their Laguna Niguel neighborhood when
two large dogs jumped the smaller dog. Perrigoue screamed and
attempted to rescue Ethan, but the dogs, a pit bull mix and Labrador
mix, continued their vicious attack. Upon hearing his wife's screams,
Joseph Perrigoue grabbed his .45-cal. handgun and went to her aid. The
Perrigoues' dog, Ethan, had been killed and his attackers had run off.
Perrigoue followed the dogs' bloody tracks back to a nearby apartment.
When he knocked on the door, both dogs jumped out an open window and
attacked him. Perrigoue defended himself, shooting both dogs.
Animal-control officers took the wounded dogs away and attempted to
contact their owner, whom neighbors said had been out of town for
several days.
The Sacramento Bee, Sacramento, CA, 03/05/03
State: CA
American Rifleman Issue: 5/1/2003
Chad Lewis answered a knock at the door of his Sacramento
County, Calif., home late one night and was attacked by a frightening
figure. The home invader, wearing a ski mask and armed with a metal
pipe, struck Lewis repeatedly on the upper body and head. Lewis'
roommate was recovering from knee surgery and could not physically
assist him, but managed to call 9-1-1 and get hold of his rifle, as he
feared Lewis would be killed in the attack. Meanwhile, Lewis broke
free from his assailant and retrieved a handgun from his bedroom. A
struggle ensued over the gun, but Lewis was finally able to pull free
and shoot his attacker. When authorities arrived, both Lewis and the
intruder were taken to the hospital. Lewis' condition was serious, and
his attacker was in critical condition with a gunshot wound to the
head.
The Tampa Tribune, Tampa, FL, 02/01/03
State: FL
American Rifleman Issue: 5/1/2003
Teresa Castellano and her 6-year-old daughter, Alysa, were
visiting Alysa's friend, Kaitlyn, at her home when terror erupted
inside. The girls were watching TV and began laughing loudly at
something they had seen. The abrupt laughter apparently startled the
dogs in the house, which began growling and barking. Sensing the two
rottweilers and pit bull were not playing around, Castellano tried to
get the girls to be quiet, but the dogs attacked them, biting Kaitlyn
and Alysa. Castellano was able to distract the dogs, which allowed the
girls time to run to safety at a neighbor's house, but by then
Castellano herself was being attacked. Two neighbors armed with
handguns fired on the dogs to get them to release the woman. One of
the armed men was bitten in the leg during the struggle. One dog was
killed, and the other two retreated back into the house. Authorities
found one dog wounded and the other lying on the floor inside. They
were taken to a local animal shelter and later euthanized. Castellano
and her daughter each required 100 stitches to close their wounds, and
Kaitlyn needed 20 stitches.
Tulsa World, Tulsa, OK, 01/26/03
State: OK
American Rifleman Issue: 4/1/2003
A "good Samaritan" came to the rescue of a woman who was the
apparent victim of a sexual assault in downtown Tulsa, Okla. The man
was surveying possible construction sites in the area when he saw two
partially disrobed people struggling in an alleyway. When the woman
screamed for help, the man ran to assist her. The suspect then jumped
into his vehicle, a Ford Taurus, and tried to hit his victim with the
car. The Samaritan responded by drawing a .40-cal. handgun and firing
several shots at the woman's assailant, who was killed. Sergeant Mike
Huff said the woman tried to get a ride home from her attacker, when
the man pulled into the alley and attempted to assault her. Referring
to the woman's rescuer, Huff said, "It appears that this man really
interrupted a bad situation."
The Baltimore Sun, Baltimore, MD, 10/20/02
State: MD
American Rifleman Issue: 2/1/2003
A 19-year-old Midtown, Md., man was shot and killed when he
opened fire on two motorists stopped at a red light. The man in the
second of the two cars drew his own gun and shot back. Andre Lamont
Hill approached a car stopped at a red light in Baltimore at 10:20
p.m. and fired multiple times, hitting that car and a car directly
behind it. When the second car was sprayed with bullets, the driver,
who had a permit to carry a gun, fired back, striking Hill several
times in the head. The motive for the attack was unknown, according to
Baltimore police.
WOUNDED
Goldsboro News-Argus, Goldsboro, N.C., 12/7/04
State: NC
American Rifleman Issue: 12/1/2004
Michael Strickland was taking care of some business matters in
his home near Whiteville, N.C., when two men entered. One of them
pulled a gun and demanded a receipt for nine months' rent, threatening
to kill Strickland and his wife if he did not hand it over. Strickland
feigned compliance, but reached for his .38 Spl. revolver, fired, and
killed the armed man. The accomplice fled. The fatally wounded gunman
was found to have a lengthy criminal record.
Orlando Sentinel, Orlando, FL, 08/11/04
State: FL
American Rifleman Issue: 12/1/2004
"I feel like I protected my own life," said Judy Foster
regarding an attempted robbery she stopped at the Haines City,
Florida, Mister Money USA store. Foster, the proprietor, had been
through a robbery before, so when two men came into the store carrying
guns, she did not hesitate to pull out her pistol and fire. One man
fell to the ground, but managed to get up, and then the two robbers
fled the store. Thomas Wiley, who was fatally wounded by Foster's
bullet, was later found dead in a stolen car. Bernard Geddis, the
driver in the incident, was arrested on charges of second-degree
murder and attempted armed robbery. At press time, Taurean Brown was
being sought as the suspected second gunman.
Star Gazette, Elmira, N.Y., 11/11/04
State: NY
American Rifleman Issue: 11/1/2004
When a Windham Township, Penn., homeowner woke up and
discovered a burglar in his home, he acted quickly. The homeowner
grabbed a gun, and, when confronted by the intruder, shot him. The
wounded man fled, but was later found by police at a local hospital.
Dallas Morning News, Dallas, Tex., 11/29/04
State: TX
American Rifleman Issue: 11/1/2004
Seeing an armed man enter the Dallas, Tex., gas station that
had been the scene of prior robberies, a station attendant reacted
quickly, retrieving a gun. When the would-be robber aimed his gun at
him, the employee shot first, wounding his assailant in the side.
Police took the wounded suspect into custody, and believe that he may
have been responsible for several other robberies over the past month.
The San Francisco Chronicle, San Francisco, CA, 07/25/04
State: CA
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2004
An East Oakland, Calif., market employee thwarted a robbery
attempt at the 3M Market early one Saturday. The alleged robber,
identified as David Mosely, was wounded in his head and back and left
the store. Police were called to a nearby apartment to investigate a
call about a man covered in blood but did not locate the suspect when
they arrived. Mosely was arrested a short time later when he attempted
to steal a car. He was charged with attempted robbery and taken to the
hospital.
The Times, Munster, IN, 07/29/04
State: IN
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2004
James Shema, owner of Shema's Outdoor Sports in Merrillville,
Ind., knew immediately he was in a deadly situation. A man entered his
store with a sawed-off shotgun and ordered Shema, his wife, Kathy, and
three customers to drop to the floor. As Shema moved toward the floor,
he grabbed a .40-cal. handgun he kept behind the counter and fired two
shots at the robber. The wounded gunman fled the store and was soon
apprehended by authorities who found him bleeding in the back seat of
a nearby SUV. Shema said he just did what he had to do. "When he came
in here with a shotgun and no mask on his face I didn't think he
planned to leave survivors," Shema explained.
Muskegon Chronicle, Muskegon, Mich., 10/6/04
State: MI
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2004
Hearing noises in his Egelston Township, Mich., store, Michael
Moore wondered if an animal had gotten inside and went to investigate.
Instead, he found himself confronted by a burglar. Moore retrieved his
shotgun and fired once when the man refused to freeze. The wounded
intruder who was soon arrested. Muskegon County Prosecutor Tony Tague
ruled Moore acted in self-defense and would not be charged.
Jacksonville Times-Union, Jacksonville, Fla., 10/6/04
State: FL
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2004
When his Jacksonville, Fla., home was broken into by a butcher
knife-wielding intruder who demanded the keys to his car, Richard
Clark said the keys were in another room. When the invader began a
search for the keys, Clark was able to retrieve his .38-cal. revolver,
fire, and wounded the crook. Police soon arrested the intruder, saying
the suspect was linked to three prior burglaries.
Washington Times, Washington, D.C., 10/13/04
State: AL
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2004
A homeowner in Shelby, Ala., found four men breaking into his
home, so he retrieved a gun, fired and wounded one man. The four
burglars fled, and the wounded suspect was later taken to a hospital,
where he was taken into custody. It was later learned the man was one
of four inmates who had escaped from a Georgia prison.
Muncie Star Press, Muncie, Ind., 8/28/04
State: IN
American Rifleman Issue: 9/1/2004
When four masked men walked into the Prairie Creek Pawn Shop
in Muncie, Ind., owner Adam Kennedy knew that they weren't there to
conduct a normal transaction. When one of the robbers pulled out a
revolver and fired it at Kennedy, Kennedy returned fire with his own
handgun, wounding the gunman. The would-be robbers all fled. The
wounded suspect was dropped off at a hospital. He and two suspected
accomplices were soon apprehended.
The Town Talk, Alexandria, La., 6/21/04
State: LA
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2004
Tamer Abdulwahab and his cousin, Abdulwahab Zeidan, were at
the counter of the Alexandria, La., convenience store where they work
when a man came in and pulled out a gun. Abdulwahab stepped out of
sight and drew his gun. When the man fired at Zeidan, Abdulwahab
returned fire, striking the would-be robber twice. The fatally wounded
suspect fled.
Oakland Tribune, Oakland, California, 7/25/04
State: CA
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2004
When an armed robber entered a convenience store, his first
action was to order the clerk to hit the floor. Instead the clerk drew
a .38-caliber pistol and fired. The wounded would-be robber fled to
his car. An alert police officer later captured the suspect who was
taken to a hospital.
The Paris News, Paris, Tex., 7/27/04
State: TX
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2004
When three men seeking winnings from a day at a casino carried
out a home invasion in Paris, Tex., a victim used his wits to get what
he needed to protect himself. Convincing the robbers the money was at
his mother's house, he was taken to that location where he retrieved a
handgun. When a burglar alarm was activated, the bandits began firing.
Their would-be victim returned fire, hitting one of the men in the
hand. The trio fled, and a wounded suspect later turned himself in to
authorities.
The Indianapolis Star, Indianapolis, IN, 4/4/04
State: IN
American Rifleman Issue: 7/1/2004
George Finch, 75, was sleeping in his recliner when he heard
the sounds of glass breaking. Someone had broken a back window and was
now entering his home. Finch then got his gun and encountered the
interloper in his kitchen. "He stepped into the kitchen and he [the
intruder] was right there. My dad told him to stop," Finch's daughter,
Debbie Skaggs, recalls her father telling her. Finch told her the man
'just kept coming' so he fired one shot, hitting the would-be thief in
the leg. The wounded man, later identified by police as Kevin
Richardson, made his escape through the same window he had entered,
ran a short distance and collapsed. Richardson, who died shortly
thereafter, had a history of theft, trespass and prostitution arrests.
Los Angeles Times, Los Angeles, CA, 4/7/04
State: CA
American Rifleman Issue: 7/1/2004
Three armed men attempted to rob a jewelry store on East
Sepulveda Boulevard in Los Angeles. They confronted the storeowner
demanding jewels and cash. When they began shooting, the owner
returned fire, shooting one of the gunmen. The three fled the store,
but the wounded robber collapsed in a nearby market and died.
The Olympian, Olympia, Wash., 7/3/04
State: WA
American Rifleman Issue: 7/1/2004
A restraining order did not stop a series of threats and
vandalism directed at Rainier, Wash., resident Donald Skewis. When the
subject of the restraining order appeared on Skewis' property, armed
with a baseball bat and knife, Skewis ordered him to stop. When
instead the man continued advancing, Skewis fired his revolver and
mortally wounded the intruder.
Jefferson Post, West Jefferson, NC, 02/17/04
State: NC
American Rifleman Issue: 6/1/2004
Paul Ham and his son, Jimmy, entered a mobile home on their
property to repair a water leak for tenant Kevin Clark. As they walked
in, the Hams encountered a couple staying with Clark, William and
Kristina Tuell. William Tuell immediately began shooting at the Hams,
hitting the elder Ham in the head and shooting Jimmy Ham in the face.
Both Hams then ran for their house, with Tuell and his wife on their
heels. The attack continued in the Hams' home as Tuell and his wife
attempted to shoot the entire Ham family. Kristina Tuell was wrestled
to the ground by Ham's daughter, Sherry, but managed to escape. Though
wounded, Jimmy Ham finally managed to secure a gun and kill Tuell with
one shot. Kristina Tuell was later arrested after a massive manhunt
and faces multiple charges, including attempted murder and assault
with a deadly weapon.
Boston Herald, Boston, MA, 01/23/04
State: MA
American Rifleman Issue: 4/1/2004
A Somerville, Mass., resident had just stepped out of his
shower when he heard unusual sounds at the back of his house. When a
man broke through his back door, the homeowner retrieved a handgun,
confronted the intruder and shot him in the shoulder. The wounded
burglar ran from the house, but police were able to track him by
following a trail of blood to a nearby rail station. The suspect was
treated at a local hospital for the gunshot wound, and police were
expected to charge him with breaking and entering.
WOUNDED
The Kansas City Star, Kansas City, MO, 08/02/05
State: mo
American Rifleman Issue: 11/1/2005
A 66-year-old contract carrier for a Kansas City newspaper
still doesn't know what his attackers wanted, but he does know that
he's lucky to have been armed. His shift was just beginning at about 3
a.m., when four assailants sprinted toward him, forcing him back to
the safety of his van. But before the carrier could get away, the
biggest attacker, along with his three accomplices, began pummeling
the man through the driver-side window. During the ordeal, the van
drifted forward and slammed into a store, at which point the carrier
retrieved a .380-cal. handgun and fired three shots out his window,
causing the attackers to flee. Authorities were unsure if any of the
thugs were wounded. The carrier was left bruised and bleeding, but he
considered himself fortunate to be alive. "I thought these guys just
weren't going to let up," he said. "He intended to knock me out, maybe
leave me for dead. At that time, he'd get whatever he wanted."
The Times-Picayune, New Orleans, LA, 07/20/05
State: LA
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2005
When a young man showed up at Breaux's Jewelers in New Orleans
dressed as an old lady-complete with a walker, purse, gray wig and tan
dress-the ruse was good enough to get him buzzed inside. But
storeowner Mike Breaux quickly saw through the disguise and drew his
handgun just as police say the suspect started to pull a handgun out
of his purse and leap over the counter. Breaux fired, striking and
incapacitating the would-be robber. From outside, a second suspect
fired several shots through the glass front door as Breaux and one of
his employees, who had picked up the first suspect's gun, returned
fire. Breaux was grazed by a bullet before the wounded man fled with
yet another accomplice. The second suspect turned up at a hospital
later with gunshot wounds to his neck, back and arm. The first suspect
was taken from the store by ambulance. Both men were listed in
critical condition.
The News-Press, Fort Myers, FL, 06/07/05
State: FL
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2005
The two masked men who burst into a North Fort Myers, Fla.,
pharmacy demanding drugs didn't notice the pharmacy technician, who
was a concealed-weapons permit holder, crouched in the back. When one
robber leapt onto the countertop and waved a pistol at the clerk, the
technician took action, opening fire with a .45-cal. pistol and
hitting the armed man in the stomach. Both suspects fled the scene.
Police believed the wounded man was a career criminal with 14 felony
convictions since 1990 who was released from prison in January. "I
knew for sure this guy was going to kill me," the technician said. "I
was so afraid. I knew if I died, [the clerk] was going to die."
Las Vegas Sun, Las Vegas, NV, 12/24/04
State: NV
American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2005
A restraining order did not prevent a woman's ex-boyfriend
from kicking down the front door of her Sparks, Nev., apartment at
2:40 a.m. The man proceeded to attack a co-worker of the woman with a
metal lamp, injuring him. The assailant then turned his attention to
the woman, but the co-worker retrieved a handgun and fatally wounded
the intruder.
Houston Chronicle, Houston, TX, 01/05/05
State: TX
American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2005
Early one morning, three men forced their way into a Houston,
Tex., house and opened fire on the family. The husband raced to the
bedroom, retrieved his own gun, and returned fire. One of the
intruders was critically wounded, and the other two fled the scene.
jf...@ix.netcom.com
Here is your proof:
Jim Austin
wrote:
> Jim Austin wrote:
> > On Dec 8, 10:52 am, "Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D." <d...@coldine.edu>
> > wrote:
>
> >>he he he...
>
> >>The gun goofball philosophy:
>
> >>A sharp pencil can kill as *surely* as an assault rifle.
> >>A sharp pencil can kill as *easily* as an assault rifle.
>
> >>If guns did not exist there would be 30,000 sharp pencil murders every year.
>
>
> > The outlook opposing gun control is an outlook that legitimizes and
> > validates the right of self defense.
>
> > Not the case with those pushing gun control.
>
> I own 4 guns and advocate using guns *sensibly* for self defense and hunting, but not
> a free-for-all everyone can carry a shotgun in downtown New York City as a "right".
This guy thinks only thugs should be able to carry guns in New York
City.
> (this is 2009, not 1776, we have "arms" that are far more powerful than muskets)
> ;-)
A definite limitation on the right of self defense.
Trevor Wilson
> On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 09:58:42 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
> <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>> Mr. Albritton wrote:
>>>> **Here, again, is what is considered proof, by sensible people:
>>>>
>>>> Police, FBI or reputable media reports. Anything else is wild
>>>> speculation. Your claim is rejected.
>>>
>>> You obviously haven't read the list of sources.
>>> MANY are legitimate law enforcement agencies and colleges of
>>> criminal studies.
>>
>> **Once again, you have failed to read what I suggested was
>> reasonable proof of your claim. You have failed, yet again, to
>> supply that evidence.
>
>
> Here is your proof:
**Nope. You, too, have failed to read what is considered to be reasonable
evidence. ONE PERCENT was the request. You have failed miserably to come
remotely close to that level. Hardly surprising.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Blinky Bill
<jf...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:oemth5l93bovj7pdu...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 09:30:00 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
> <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>>Scout wrote:
>>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> Mr. Albritton wrote:
>>>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *many* people as an assault rifle.
>>>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *surely* as an assault rifle.
>>>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *easily* as an assault rifle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If guns did not exist there would be 30,000 sharp pencil murders
>>>>>> every year.
>>>>>
>>>>> Guns PROTECT 2.5 MILLION lives every year.
>>>>
>>>> **Prove it. Evidence from the FBI, police reports, or REPUTABLE media
>>>> sources will be acceptable. Here's the deal:
>>>
>>> No matter what is produced you will ignore it, deny it, or find
>>> exucses to do so.
>>
>>**NOT ONCE, has the evidence been presented, so I can hardly reject what
>>has
>>not been presented. Nor can you claim I have rejected what has not been
>>presented.
>>
>
> Yes the evidence has been presented over and over again and you have
> seen it yet you still reject that which proves your assertions
> completely wrong:
Elsewhere in this thread you quote TW acknowledging that up to 3400 dgus
occur each year. How do you think citing a few dozen incidents spread over
several years proves that estimate to be "completely wrong"?
<snip>
Mr. Albritton
> proof of your claim. You have failed, yet again, to supply that evidence.
"He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else."
Ben Franklin
Trevor Wilson
> On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 09:30:00 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
> <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>> Scout wrote:
>>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> Mr. Albritton wrote:
>>>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *many* people as an assault rifle.
>>>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *surely* as an assault rifle.
>>>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *easily* as an assault rifle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If guns did not exist there would be 30,000 sharp pencil murders
>>>>>> every year.
>>>>>
>>>>> Guns PROTECT 2.5 MILLION lives every year.
>>>>
>>>> **Prove it. Evidence from the FBI, police reports, or REPUTABLE
>>>> media sources will be acceptable. Here's the deal:
>>>
>>> No matter what is produced you will ignore it, deny it, or find
>>> exucses to do so.
>>
>> **NOT ONCE, has the evidence been presented, so I can hardly reject
>> what has not been presented. Nor can you claim I have rejected what
>> has not been presented.
>>
>
> Yes the evidence has been presented over and over again and you have
> seen it yet you still reject that which proves your assertions
> completely wrong:
**I'm not the one who made the completely unsupported claim. Therefore, I
cannot be wrong. I merely asked for evidence, amounting to a mere 1% of the
average daily number claimed.
The one who is wrong, is Mr Albritton. He has failed to supply the requested
evidence. I note that you have failed to challenge his nonsense.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
**Indeed. Stop making excuses. Supply the data to validate your claim.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Mr. Albritton
>> Ben Franklin
>
> **Indeed. Stop making excuses. Supply the data to validate your claim.
Already did.
Just because you refuse to accept the blatantly obvious data that I
presented doesn't make it any less valid or verifiable.
Trevor Wilson
>>> "He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything
>>> else." Ben Franklin
>>
>> **Indeed. Stop making excuses. Supply the data to validate your
>> claim.
>
> Already did.
**No, you did not. Here is what I asked for:
---
Prove it. Evidence from the FBI, police reports, or REPUTABLE media
sources will be acceptable. Here's the deal:
* YOU just claimed that there are an average of 6,850 DGUs each an every day
in the US.
* Provide evidence (as specified above) that 1% of your claimed number of
DGUs has occured and we'll take notice.
* If you are unable to provide the requested 1% evidence, then your claim
will be dismissed.
---
You failed to supply data which was validated by police, FBI or reputable
media sources. You supplied a survey. A survey is not evidence.
> Just because you refuse to accept the blatantly obvious data that I
> presented doesn't make it any less valid or verifiable.
**You failed to supply the data.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
edi...@netpath.net
wrote:
> edi...@netpath.net wrote:
> > Bullshit. IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN have proven that "the world's only
> > superpower" is easily defeated by irregular warfare by people armed
> > with rifles and very little else initially.
>
> **Bollocks. All they have proved is that the US is reluctant to engage an
> enemy fully, without worrying about colateral damage. Hiroshima proved
> EXACTLY what the US military can do, if necessary. Then, of course, there
> are other skirmishes of note:
> * Basra Road
> * Gulf War I
> * Gulf War II
Not analogous at all - as ALL of those were in conventional wars,
against conventional militaries that foolishly tried outmatching the
regime when their factories and logistics could be destroyed by aerial
bombardment and the regime's couldn't. But - once the regime found
itself fighting irregulars - it got its ass kicked and couldn't do a
thing about it, even when 19 guys with only boxcutters did 9/11. Just
no way to fight irregulars with nukes - as there aren't remunerative
targets, because the irregulars don't have big cities such as
Hiroshima.
Trevor Wilson
> On Dec 8, 5:54 pm, "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au>
> wrote:
>> edi...@netpath.net wrote:
>>> Bullshit. IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN have proven that "the world's only
>>> superpower" is easily defeated by irregular warfare by people armed
>>> with rifles and very little else initially.
>>
>> **Bollocks. All they have proved is that the US is reluctant to
>> engage an enemy fully, without worrying about colateral damage.
>> Hiroshima proved EXACTLY what the US military can do, if necessary.
>> Then, of course, there are other skirmishes of note:
>> * Basra Road
>> * Gulf War I
>> * Gulf War II
>
> Not analogous at all - as ALL of those were in conventional wars,
**War is war. If the US authority is seriously threatened, then it can draw
on considerable resources. A bunch of good ole' boys with guns can do diddly
squat about it.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Mr. Albritton
> www.rageaudio.com.au
Pissing and whining from across the globe, (Australia) complaining and
whining in a country's politics you don't have a legitimate vote in, and
you're stupid enough to think you have the end all answer for a discussion
in which you refuse to look at presented arguments and data.
Your opinion is still worthless.
I'm also quite sure that the Australian government will agree that your
opinion is worthless, which is clearly why you're wasting your time in
another country's political discussions.
Trevor Wilson
>> Trevor Wilson
>> www.rageaudio.com.au
>
> Pissing and whining from across the globe, (Australia) complaining and
> whining in a country's politics you don't have a legitimate vote in,
> and you're stupid enough to think you have the end all answer for a
> discussion in which you refuse to look at presented arguments and
> data.
**You have failed to present any data. Your claim is dismissed.
>
> Your opinion is still worthless.
**Fair enough. However, I am stating facts. You have failed to present any
data. Your claim is dismissed.
>
> I'm also quite sure that the Australian government will agree that
> your opinion is worthless, which is clearly why you're wasting your
> time in another country's political discussions.
**I am simply challenging your worthless and spurious claim. For the record:
None of the groups in the header are specific to any one nation.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Andrew Swallow
> On Dec 8, 10:52 am, "Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D." <d...@coldine.edu>
> wrote:
>> he he he...
>>
>> The gun goofball philosophy:
>>
>> A sharp pencil can kill as *surely* as an assault rifle.
>> A sharp pencil can kill as *easily* as an assault rifle.
>>
>> If guns did not exist there would be 30,000 sharp pencil murders every year.
>>
>
> The outlook opposing gun control is an outlook that legitimizes and
> validates the right of self defense.
>
> Not the case with those pushing gun control.
There are plenty of sharp pencils in Britain. We do not have
problems with mass murderers using them to kill.
(Government ministers and generals writing plans possibly but
not mass murderers.)
Andrew Swallow
Mr. Albritton
> problems with mass murderers using them to kill.
On the other hand, knife crime is through the ROOF.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/UK-Knife-Crime-Worse-Than-Statistics-Suggest-Say-Frontline-Police-Officers/Article/200807215028782?f=rss
Only goes to show you how murder still exists, no matter what the tool.
Andrew Swallow
{snip}
>
> Not analogous at all - as ALL of those were in conventional wars,
> against conventional militaries that foolishly tried outmatching the
> regime when their factories and logistics could be destroyed by aerial
> bombardment and the regime's couldn't. But - once the regime found
> itself fighting irregulars - it got its ass kicked and couldn't do a
> thing about it, even when 19 guys with only boxcutters did 9/11. Just
> no way to fight irregulars with nukes - as there aren't remunerative
> targets, because the irregulars don't have big cities such as
> Hiroshima.
This is an old problem, try a traditional solution.
Irregulars may not have big cities but they do have villages,
relatives and religious buildings like Mosques. The inhabitants
of these can be exterminated.
If you want rule of law you may need to make being a relative or
village housing a terrorist a criminal office punishable by death.
Arrest, trial and execution to occur within a week.
(The week gives time to interrogate the captives.)
Andrew Swallow
Andrew Swallow
{snip}
>
> This guy thinks only thugs should be able to carry guns in New York
> City.
I do. Only thugs carrying guns works in London. The police know
who to shoot. A 'metal confession' is much simpler that all that
nonsense with lawyers, appeals and pleas for pardons.
Andrew Swallow
Scout
> Mr. Albritton wrote:
>> All cited sources from this cite:
>> http://gunowners.org/fs0404.htm
>>
>
> **Here, again, is what is considered proof, by sensible people:
>
> Police, FBI or reputable media reports. Anything else is wild
> speculation.
We accept you chose to pick and chose the evidence you will accept.
I suppose the DoJ is right out?
Yep, unless it fits your little blinders then it's wild speculation no
matter how founded in facts, and scientific principles.
What's funny, is you have already told us that you will deny and ignore the
evidence even if you are presented with EXACTLY what you ask for.
So tell me Trevor, what's the point of asking for something you know you
will ignore anyway?
Scout
> Mr. Albritton wrote:
>>> **Here, again, is what is considered proof, by sensible people:
>>>
>>> Police, FBI or reputable media reports. Anything else is wild
>>> speculation. Your claim is rejected.
>>
>> You obviously haven't read the list of sources.
>> MANY are legitimate law enforcement agencies and colleges of criminal
>> studies.
>
> **Once again, you have failed to read what I suggested was reasonable
> proof of your claim.
Oh, well as long as it's your suggestion then naturally any other source of
evidence isn't reasonable.....if you are a brain dead idiot intent on
ignoring the evidence.
Scout
> Mr. Albritton wrote:
>>>> "He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything
>>>> else." Ben Franklin
>>>
>>> **Indeed. Stop making excuses. Supply the data to validate your
>>> claim.
>>
>> Already did.
>
> **No, you did not. Here is what I asked for:
You asked for evidence. He gave you evidence. Now you wish to bitch because
it didn't come from the narrow restrictive sources you deem 'worthy'?
Tell you what Trevor, why don't you tell us why these sources and their data
is invalid.
Can't do it, can you?
Nope, according to you are aren't "valid" because you say so, and that's
that.
Well Trevor, I hate to tell you but you don't get to tell the rest of the
world what is and isn't valid evidence.
Scout
> Mr. Albritton wrote:
>>> Trevor Wilson
>>> www.rageaudio.com.au
>>
>> Pissing and whining from across the globe, (Australia) complaining
>> and whining in a country's politics you don't have a legitimate vote
>> in, and you're stupid enough to think you have the end all answer
>> for a discussion in which you refuse to look at presented arguments
>> and data.
>
> **You have failed to present any data.
He did present any data. Quite a bit of it actually. That you refuse to
consider it is a personal problem. He gave you the evidence of what you
asked for.
Jim Yanik
news:Xns9CDBA6290AB82We...@216.196.97.142:
> "Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D." <dr...@coldine.edu> wrote in
> news:2-KdnSjIpL_mPYPW...@supernews.com:
>
>>
>> he he he...
>>
>> The gun goofball philosophy:
>>
>> A sharp pencil can kill as *many* people as an assault rifle.
>> A sharp pencil can kill as *surely* as an assault rifle.
>> A sharp pencil can kill as *easily* as an assault rifle.
>>
>> If guns did not exist there would be 30,000 sharp pencil murders every
>> year.
>>
>> ;-)
>>
>>
>
> Unfortuneately you won't be among them.
>
the alleged "Doctor" misses the point that guns are used for GOOD far more
often than for evil,and they allow the elderly,small,weak,female,and
handicapped the ability to defend themselves against
bigger,stronger,younger or more numerous assailants,with much better
chances of success and with less risk to themselves.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
Jim Yanik
news:Xns9CDB9DF57CC...@216.250.188.140:
> In news:0ugth596ilacgq6vk...@4ax.com Peter Skelton
><skel...@cogeco.ca> wrote:
>
>> Now that an idiot has posted obviously inaccurate data from a
>> clearly biased source,
>
> Oh well.
>
> Good luck.
>
But I suspect he'll accept without question any statements,claims,"facts"
or studies from Brady Campaign and their ilk.
Scout
And Trevor's sock puppet jumps in.
Scout
> Scout wrote:
>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> Mr. Albritton wrote:
>>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *surely* as an assault rifle.
>>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *easily* as an assault rifle.
>>>>>
>>>>> If guns did not exist there would be 30,000 sharp pencil murders
>>>>> every year.
>>>>
>>>
>>> media sources will be acceptable. Here's the deal:
>>
>> exucses to do so.
>
> **NOT ONCE, has the evidence been presented, so I can hardly reject
> what has not been presented.
Why present what you are on record as saying you would ignore?
See Trevor, I asked you once if you would accept the evidence you were
asking for and was totally prepared to present it to you. Then you told me
that it wouldn't matter if I did because you wouldn't accept it anyway.
Specifically your claim of wanting to see 10 cases in a single day. When I
suggested that I would do so, you backpedaled and claimed well you would
only accept that as showing that there were possible 36,500 cases per year
or so, not the 2.5 million you claim to be attempting to verify by your
requests.
So what's the point?
You know you will ignore the data, even if it's EXACTLY what you ask for, I
know you will do so, and so does anyone else that either followed our
conversation or bothers to check google.
So why ask for data you know you will ignore?
Why should anyone bother trying to present it to you?
Sorry, but you have had reasonable, verifiable, and scientifically valid
data presented to you. That you chose to ignore it does not make the claim
invalid, the data untrue, or in any manner suggest that the rate is as low
as you like to assert.
Scout
> jf...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 09:30:00 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
>> <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>> Scout wrote:
>>>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>> Mr. Albritton wrote:
>>>>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *many* people as an assault rifle.
>>>>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *surely* as an assault rifle.
>>>>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *easily* as an assault rifle.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If guns did not exist there would be 30,000 sharp pencil murders
>>>>>>> every year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Guns PROTECT 2.5 MILLION lives every year.
>>>>>
>>>>> **Prove it. Evidence from the FBI, police reports, or REPUTABLE
>>>>> media sources will be acceptable. Here's the deal:
>>>>
>>>> No matter what is produced you will ignore it, deny it, or find
>>>> exucses to do so.
>>>
>>> **NOT ONCE, has the evidence been presented, so I can hardly reject
>>> what has not been presented. Nor can you claim I have rejected what
>>> has not been presented.
>>>
>>
>> Yes the evidence has been presented over and over again and you have
>> seen it yet you still reject that which proves your assertions
>> completely wrong:
>
> **I'm not the one who made the completely unsupported claim.
Neither did he. He has cited his sources, he has supported his claim. Now
it's up to you to show valid reasons why his source is incorrect,
inaccurate, or flat out wrong.
You can't.
Thus his sources stand up, his claim is supported, and your denial doesn't
alter that.
Blinky Bill
"Scout" <me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:94ETm.18346$y%5.1...@newsfe03.iad...
> Blinky Bill wrote:
>
> And Trevor's sock puppet jumps in.
And Butt Hymen's sock puppet jumps in
Mr. Albritton
>
>> In comparison, the shooting spree with the highest number
>> of deaths was:
>>
>> Virginia Tech Murders
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre
>> 32 deaths involving guns
>>
>> You forgot to mention that this incident was specifically a GUN FREE
>> ZONE.
>> How many already existing laws were broken by this incident?
>> Over ten? Maybe as much as fifteen?
>> Shows how well the law really *DOESN'T* protect us, doesn't it?
>
> Son, your solution, to have everybody at Virginia Tech and every other
> school
> carrying a gun, is ludicrous and part of the reason why you gun goofballs
> are
> not even acknowledged by normal rational mature people.
> ;-)
In Virginia Tech, damn near close to everyone on that campus is a LEGAL
ADULT. So in answer to your question, YES. EVERYONE at Virginia Tech
(except those rare 15 year old geniuses) should have been armed and ready to
legally defend themselves in that very fscked up situation.
As for OTHER schools, (such as Columbine High School) every ADULT should be
able to carry a firearm in reference to the lawful defense of a 3rd party.
(AKA PROTECTING THE CHILDREN)
Why are these solutions a problem for you?
P.S. Utah has already implemented lawfully PROTECTED concealed carry (also
known as SPECIFICALLY AUTHORIZED BY LAW as long as you have a concealed
carry permit) on all Utah College Campuses.
http://opencarry.org/college.html
Name me one problem that has resulted from that implementation.
Jim Yanik
news:d4mth5pk34p1ekvjj...@4ax.com:
> On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 09:30:00 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
><tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>>Scout wrote:
>>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> Mr. Albritton wrote:
>>>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *many* people as an assault rifle.
>>>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *surely* as an assault rifle.
>>>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *easily* as an assault rifle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If guns did not exist there would be 30,000 sharp pencil murders
>>>>>> every year.
>>>>>
>>>>> Guns PROTECT 2.5 MILLION lives every year.
>>>>
>>>> **Prove it. Evidence from the FBI, police reports, or REPUTABLE
>>>> media sources will be acceptable. Here's the deal:
>>>
>>> No matter what is produced you will ignore it, deny it, or find
>>> exucses to do so.
>>
>>**NOT ONCE, has the evidence been presented, so I can hardly reject
>>what has not been presented.
>
> Yes it has.
>
>>Nor can you claim I have rejected what has not been presented.
>>
>
> Yes he can and you have rejected what hast been presented.
>
>
>>>
>>> You have already admitted that you will ignore such data even if it
>>> is exactly what you asked for.
>>
>>**Hardly.
>
> Exactly you have and you continue to.
>
>
> Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
> From: "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au>
> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 08:55:54 GMT
> Local: Sun, Dec 21 2003 4:55 am
> Subject: Re: Defensive use of firearms
>
> **Not really, but I find the 80,000 figure possibly plausible.
>
> Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
> From: "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au>
> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 10:20:27 GMT
> Local: Sun, Mar 21 2004 6:20 am
> Subject: Re: Gun control laws do work....
>
> **Yep. I'm betting that the real number lies between 2,000 and 5,000.
>
> Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
> From: "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au>
> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 10:23:02 GMT
> Local: Sun, Mar 21 2004 6:23 am
> Subject: Re: Gun control laws do work....
>
> **Nope. the 200 number is hard data. FBI verified data.
> **Not at all. I have always said that the number lies somewhere
> between 200
> and 80,000. My thoughts are that between 2,000 and 5,000 is about
> right.
>
> Newsgroups: aus.politics.guns, talk.politics.guns, aus.politics
> From: Trevor Wilson <trevor@_SPAMBLOCK_rageaudio.com.au>
> Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 17:55:08 +1000
> Local: Sat, Sep 1 2007 3:55 am
> Subject: Re: The Anti-gun Agenda
>
> **Now we're up to 260 DGUs PA, or thereabouts.
> **OK. So what is the present figure? 260 or thereabouts?
>
> On Sep 2, 8:53 am, Trevor Wilson <trevor@_SPAMBLOCK_rageaudio.com.au>
> wrote:
>
> I say that there are 200 DGUs (approximately) each year in the US.
>
> Newsgroups: aus.politics.guns, talk.politics.guns, aus.politics
> From: Trevor Wilson <trevor@_SPAMBLOCK_rageaudio.com.au>
> Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 08:53:47 +1000
> Local: Sat, Sep 1 2007 6:53 pm
> Subject: Re: The Anti-gun Agenda
>
> I say that there are 200 DGUs (approximately) each year in the US.
>
> On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:35:39 +1000, Trevor Wilson
><trevor@_SPAMBLOCK_rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
> **Indeed it does. By approximately 500-600% in fact. That leaves us
> with something more than 1,200 DGUs PA.
>
> **Yep. Let's be generous and call it 3,500 PA.
>
>
> On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:35:39 +1000, Trevor Wilson
><trevor@_SPAMBLOCK_rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
> **That leaves us with something more than 1,200 DGUs PA.
>
> My present estimate is about 3,000 DGUs PA.
>
> **I readily accept that there are probably more than 200 DGUs in the
> US each year. The figure is likely to be less than a few thousand each
> year, given the consistent inability of any hard data to be presented.
>
> Newsgroups: aus.politics.guns, talk.politics.guns, aus.politics
> From: Trevor Wilson <trevor@_SPAMBLOCK_rageaudio.com.au>
> Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 14:29:37 +1000
> Local: Mon, Sep 3 2007 12:29 am
> Subject: Re: The Anti-gun Agenda
>
> **The FBI numbers are correct. If you have data which invalidates
> theirs, then present it.
> **The FBI data is correct.
> **If you wish. A rough estimate will do fine. Let's call it 100 then.
> That makes 300 DGUs each yea rin the US. Sounds fair to me.
>
> On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:22:40 +1000, Trevor Wilson
><trevor@_SPAMBLOCK_rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
> ** I have now revised that figure downwards, after further
> investigation.
>
> On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:54:13 +1000, Trevor Wilson
><trevor@_SPAMBLOCK_rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
> ** Our total os now 3,400 DGUs PA in the US.
>
Well,Trev still refuses to acknowlege that guns do NOT have to be fired or
people shot by them in order to have used them legitimately in a DGU.
Nor do such DGUs necessitate or require that reports be made to
authorities.In fact,most people would rather go on with their business and
not waste their time making a report and enduring the lengthy police
questioning.
However,that does not dismiss them as VALID DGUs.
Under attack,upon displaying a gun,often the assailant turns,flees and the
attack is stopped without a shot being fired;STILL a valid DGU.
**The assailant would not have fled if the gun had not appeared.**
And it's NOT legal to shoot a fleeing attacker,as they are no longer an
immediate threat.
Trevor dishonestly restricts the scope of "defensive gun use" to only those
recorded by authorities.
Anything otherwise,he will not accept;willful blindness.
It's the only way he can support his beliefs,by ignoring evidence.
Mr. Albritton
>> didn't involve guns at all. Humans, when they don't have access
>> to an easy tool for a job, can be frightfully creative about
>> other options - and disarming law-abiding citizens has little
>> effect on the actions of criminals.
>
> So you oppose any and all gun laws, right?
Absolutely correct.
ALL of the guns laws have proven themselves to be unequivocally worthless.
(Criminals still get their hands on guns, accused sex offenders still go
ape-shit in Washington State and kill multiple cops -- EVEN THOUGH anybody
accused of a sex-crime is not legally allowed to possess a firearm, etc.)
Time to flip the coin, SON.
P.S. If a firearm cannot be purchased, it can be manufactured.
IN PRISON, OF ALL PLACES.
http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2006/01/mythbusters_paper_crossbow.html
Andrew Swallow
16 knife deaths in all of London in 2008 against 213 homicides in
Brooklyn alone. A low roof.
Andrew Swallow
Mr. Albritton
>
> He did present any data. Quite a bit of it actually. That you refuse to
> consider it is a personal problem. He gave you the evidence of what you
> asked for.
Wow.
Thank you Scout.
I was beginning to believe that the only people paying attention here were
the ones with a *specific* agenda.
<grin>
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
>> Rifles against our military will not cut it, son, and you sure ain't a
>> "well regulated militia".
>> ;-)
>
>
> Contrary to your rather worthless opinion, I am part of the militia.
Again, son, you haphazard lot ain't a "well regulated militia".
Trevor Wilson
**Yeah, he did. He claimed:
"Guns PROTECT 2.5 MILLION lives every year."
I requested PROOF of the claim. I even went easy on him, by requesting a
meagre 1% of the one day total of his claim. ONE PERCENT! Sheesh! A
miniscule amount, that Mr Albritton was unable to substantiate.
> He has cited his sources, he has supported his claim.
**He has not supported his claim. I could cite that Jesus rose form the dead
on the 3rd day and claim the Bible as my source. It would still be a bogus
and unsupportable claim.
> Now it's up to you to show valid reasons why his source is incorrect,
> inaccurate, or flat out wrong.
**Nope. It is up to him to cite the proof.
>
> You can't.
**No, I won't. He made the claim. He has to prove his claim.
>
> Thus his sources stand up, his claim is supported, and your denial
> doesn't alter that.
**Why do his sources stand up? Do YOU have the data, from the police, FBI
and/or reputable media sources?
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> Scout wrote:
>>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> Mr. Albritton wrote:
>>>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *many* people as an assault rifle.
>>>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *surely* as an assault rifle.
>>>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *easily* as an assault rifle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If guns did not exist there would be 30,000 sharp pencil murders
>>>>>> every year.
>>>>>
>>>>> Guns PROTECT 2.5 MILLION lives every year.
>>>>
>>>> **Prove it. Evidence from the FBI, police reports, or REPUTABLE
>>>> media sources will be acceptable. Here's the deal:
>>>
>>> No matter what is produced you will ignore it, deny it, or find
>>> exucses to do so.
>>
>> **NOT ONCE, has the evidence been presented, so I can hardly reject
>> what has not been presented.
>
> Why present what you are on record as saying you would ignore?
**I cannot ignore what has not been presented. Not once, not ever.
>
> See Trevor, I asked you once if you would accept the evidence you were
> asking for and was totally prepared to present it to you.
**Bolllocks. You cannot produce the evidence.
Then you
> told me that it wouldn't matter if I did because you wouldn't accept
> it anyway. Specifically your claim of wanting to see 10 cases in a
> single day. When I suggested that I would do so, you backpedaled and
> claimed well you would only accept that as showing that there were
> possible 36,500 cases per year or so, not the 2.5 million you claim
> to be attempting to verify by your requests.
**Of course it won't prove the existence of 2.5 million per year. It will
show that around 3,650 cases per year are possible. However, you are unable
to produce even this meagre figure.
>
> So what's the point?
**The point is to get you clowns to think for yourselves, rather than
accepting any old crap dished up to you by the NRA and it's minions.
>
> You know you will ignore the data, even if it's EXACTLY what you ask
> for, I know you will do so, and so does anyone else that either
> followed our conversation or bothers to check google.
**On the contrary. I can not and will not ignore data.
>
> So why ask for data you know you will ignore?
**Rhetorical question.
>
> Why should anyone bother trying to present it to you?
**To prove that you are correct.
>
> Sorry, but you have had reasonable, verifiable, and scientifically
> valid data presented to you.
**Some. Yes. Approximately one DGU per day in the US. That's it.
That you chose to ignore it does not
> make the claim invalid, the data untrue, or in any manner suggest
> that the rate is as low as you like to assert.
**Then cite your data. We both know you can't.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> Mr. Albritton wrote:
>>> Since you want to piss and whine about cited sources....
>>> All cited sources from this cite:
>>> http://gunowners.org/fs0404.htm
>>>
>>
>> **Here, again, is what is considered proof, by sensible people:
>>
>> Police, FBI or reputable media reports. Anything else is wild
>> speculation.
>
> We accept you chose to pick and chose the evidence you will accept.
>
> I suppose the DoJ is right out?
**Read what I wrote:
"Police, FBI or reputable media reports. NO surveys, no guesses, just plain
old hard data.
>
> Yep, unless it fits your little blinders then it's wild speculation no
> matter how founded in facts, and scientific principles.
>
> What's funny, is you have already told us that you will deny and
> ignore the evidence even if you are presented with EXACTLY what you
> ask for.
> So tell me Trevor, what's the point of asking for something you know
> you will ignore anyway?
**Present the data. See if I can ignore it. Go on. I bet you can't.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
Where exactly are the elderly beat up on the street on a constant basis as you allude?
Give *exact* location.
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
>> Mr. Albritton wrote:
>>
>>> In comparison, the shooting spree with the highest number
>>> of deaths was:
>>>
>>> Virginia Tech Murders
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre
>>> 32 deaths involving guns
>>>
>>> You forgot to mention that this incident was specifically a GUN FREE
>>> ZONE.
>>> How many already existing laws were broken by this incident?
>>> Over ten? Maybe as much as fifteen?
>>> Shows how well the law really *DOESN'T* protect us, doesn't it?
>>
>>
>> Son, your solution, to have everybody at Virginia Tech and every other
>> school
>> carrying a gun, is ludicrous and part of the reason why you gun
>> goofballs are
>> not even acknowledged by normal rational mature people.
>> ;-)
>
>
> In Virginia Tech, damn near close to everyone on that campus is a LEGAL
> ADULT. So in answer to your question, YES. EVERYONE at Virginia Tech
> (except those rare 15 year old geniuses) should have been armed and
> ready to legally defend themselves in that very fscked up situation.
Son, the problem is this...if everyone has a gun, then when normally
occurring differences escalate into arguments escalating into angry
slaps then punches...then the angry parties pull out their guns
and someone is killed.
But you gun goofballs claim that will not happen, or will be rare.
Yet the angry confrontations do indeed happen frequently, just ask the
campus police. Luckily the parties involved don't have guns or their
would be dead bodies, instead everyone lives.
We have proof of that quick escalation into threats of physical violence
by you gun toting goofballs right here on usenet, all because of words on
a computer screen.
It's common sense, son...or you can go read a human psychology book or a human
behavior book.
Andrew Swallow
> Andrew Swallow <am.sw...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
>
> :
> :16 knife deaths in all of London in 2008 against 213 homicides in
>
> And no appreciable change in murder rates in London when firearms were
> banned.
>
The main discouragement was before either of us was born.
Andrew Swallow
Blinky Bill
"Mr. Albritton" <albri...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hfn0bf$q00$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> There are plenty of sharp pencils in Britain. We do not have
>> problems with mass murderers using them to kill.
>
> On the other hand, knife crime is through the ROOF.
> http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/UK-Knife-Crime-Worse-Than-Statistics-Suggest-Say-Frontline-Police-Officers/Article/200807215028782?f=rss
That URL says:
"According to the British Crime Survey, the level of knife crime in the UK
has remained stable over recent years."
That is based on statistics, not opinion
>
> Only goes to show you how murder still exists, no matter what the tool.
Indeed.
Knife murders England and Wales 2007-8 270
Knife murders US 2008 1897
So the US has about 5 times the population of England and Wales, but about 7
times the number of knife homicides. So the risk of being killed with a
knife is about 40% higher in the US than in England and Wales.
>
Blinky Bill
"Scout" <me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:_ZDTm.40510$Sw5....@newsfe16.iad...
> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> Mr. Albritton wrote:
>>>>> "He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything
>>>>> else." Ben Franklin
>>>>
>>>> **Indeed. Stop making excuses. Supply the data to validate your
>>>> claim.
>>>
>>> Already did.
>>
>> **No, you did not. Here is what I asked for:
>
> You asked for evidence. He gave you evidence. Now you wish to bitch
> because it didn't come from the narrow restrictive sources you deem
> 'worthy'?
>
> Tell you what Trevor, why don't you tell us why these sources and their
> data is invalid.
For starters, there is no objective determination of whether any use was in
fact genuinely necessary. The survey relies entirely on the perceptions of
the respondent, which given the paranoid rantings of gun loons like
yourself, is hardly reliable evidence.
>
> Can't do it, can you?
Trivially easy. The study cited by your puppet master Butt Hymen was "ARMED
RESISTANCE TO CRIME: THE PREVALENCE AND NATURE OF SELF-DEFENSE WITH A GUN"
by Kleck & Gertz. The study is not internally consistent, and not
consistent with observed data.
The figures in the K-G study require that at least 24,000 perps be shot dead
each year by dgus. Reality is that on average only about 200 are shot in
those circumstances. See-
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/1999/06/dgu-00055.php
That is probably too complicated for you to follow - you undoubtedly find
any arithmetic reasoning too difficult to understand. K-G found that in
207,000 dgus, respondents claimed to have killed or wounded the alleged
offender. But only about 100,000 people were treated annually in hospitals
at the time for gun shot wounds, the vast majority of which were inflicted
during assaults, suicide attempts or accidentally. And as noted above, only
200 are killed in dgus. Those numbers indicate that less than 0.1% of
alleged offenders shot during a dgu subsequently die of their injuries. But
as noted above K-G also claims 7%-13% of those shot during a dgu die. In
another study he claims 15%. The numbers are simply inconsistent with
observed facts.
K-G find that guns are used in self-defense in 205,000 rapes and sexual
assaults each year. The NCVS, specifically revised to produce more accurate
reporting of rape and sexual assault, estimates approximately 500,000 cases
of rape and sexual assault in 1993. The NCVS data include not only rape and
attempted rape, but also other sexual assault and verbal threats of sexual
assault. Some 150,000 of these cases involve individuals younger than 18
years of age, who would not be included in the K-G survey of adults. So if
we believe the K-G results, women (the vast majority of whom do not own
guns) defend themselves with guns in almost 40% of all sexual assaults.
Victimisation surveys show that women defend themselves with a weapon in
only 1.4% of rapes/attempted rapes, and that is using any weapon, not just a
firearm.
>
> Nope, according to you are aren't "valid" because you say so, and that's
> that.
Nope - they are invalid because they are inconsistent with observed facts.
> Well Trevor, I hate to tell you but you don't get to tell the rest of the
> world what is and isn't valid evidence.
He gets to tell the world that K-G's 2.5 million dgus simply isn't credible.
However I can be sure that these inconsistencies won't stop you and other
gun loons from trotting the same discredited numbers out again some time in
the future. IIRC I have pointed out the inconsistencies in the data to your
puppet master Butt Hymen on two previous occasions, but he returns to them
like a dog returning to its vomit.
Scout
You just have to understand that Trevor will deny ANY evidence that doesn't
conform to his world view. Indeed his current "conditions" are a result of
him asking for evidence it being supplied and then backpedals to add
conditions to what sort of evidence can be produced.
What he fails to understand is that he doesn't get to set the rules for what
evidence anyone can produce to support their claims. The MOST he can do is
to refute that evidence when presented, which he has yet to do. He simply
asserts it's not relevent, creditable, etc, etc, etc.
Indeed, he has a very distinct and pronounced double standard when it comes
to evidence. You have to produce a doctorate grade paper complete with all
raw data, etc, etc, etc. While he only has to come up with a newspaper
article talking about whatever it is he wants to claim.
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
>>> Note that the US murder sprees with the highest body counts
>>> didn't involve guns at all. Humans, when they don't have access
>>> to an easy tool for a job, can be frightfully creative about
>>> other options - and disarming law-abiding citizens has little
>>> effect on the actions of criminals.
>>
>>
>> So you oppose any and all gun laws, right?
>
>
> Absolutely correct.
> ALL of the guns laws have proven themselves to be unequivocally worthless.
> (Criminals still get their hands on guns,
It's true, son, that *some* people are not deterred, if they have
the resources and determination it's possible to get most anything.
But it is ludicrous to say that no one is deterred. We know that
some people are not smart enough to find a place to buy illegal
weapons, or they might decide the risk of possessing an illegal
weapon is too great so they just give up the idea.
So your statement that all gun laws are worthless is akin to saying
that all murder laws are worthless or all burglary laws are worthless,
where people smarter than you have determined those laws are effective.
IOW, son, your rhetoric just makes you look like an ignorant goofball.
No offense meant, just trying to help.
;-)
Scout
> Scout wrote:
>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> Scout wrote:
>>>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>> Mr. Albritton wrote:
>>>>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *many* people as an assault rifle.
>>>>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *surely* as an assault rifle.
>>>>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *easily* as an assault rifle.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If guns did not exist there would be 30,000 sharp pencil murders
>>>>>>> every year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Guns PROTECT 2.5 MILLION lives every year.
>>>>>
>>>>> **Prove it. Evidence from the FBI, police reports, or REPUTABLE
>>>>> media sources will be acceptable. Here's the deal:
>>>>
>>>> No matter what is produced you will ignore it, deny it, or find
>>>> exucses to do so.
>>>
>>> **NOT ONCE, has the evidence been presented, so I can hardly reject
>>> what has not been presented.
>>
>> Why present what you are on record as saying you would ignore?
>
> **I cannot ignore what has not been presented. Not once, not ever.
You have already said you would ignore the data presented even if it is
exactly what you asked for. So once again I ask you why go to the effort to
present such data to you which you will simply ignore?
Scout
Which he presented.
That it doesn't match what you wanted to see is irrelevent. See, Trevor, you
don't get to set the rules on what evidence he can produce to support his
claims.
Now, if you wish to refute his sources and show that they are incorrect, in
error, mistaken, false, flawed, or otherwise violate the standard principles
of science, then by all means go ahead and do so. However, until you do,
those sources are valid and do support that claim.
So go ahead and ask for the Earth, Moon and Sun on a necklace, but that
doesn't mean you're going to get it, or your failure to get it means he is
wrong.
You asked for proof, he supplied it.
The ball is in your court. You can either refute those source(s), or it
stands and validates his claim.
Scout
> Scout wrote:
>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> Mr. Albritton wrote:
>>>> Since you want to piss and whine about cited sources....
>>>> All cited sources from this cite:
>>>> http://gunowners.org/fs0404.htm
>>>>
>>>
>>> **Here, again, is what is considered proof, by sensible people:
>>>
>>> Police, FBI or reputable media reports. Anything else is wild
>>> speculation.
>>
>> We accept you chose to pick and chose the evidence you will accept.
>>
>> I suppose the DoJ is right out?
>
> **Read what I wrote:
>
> "Police, FBI or reputable media reports. NO surveys, no guesses, just
> plain old hard data.
I accept your admission that the Department of Justice is in your opinion
not a reputable source.
Seems to confirm that your list has nothing to do with reputation but only
will limiting the field so much that no one can meet your constantly
revising criteria.
pyotr filipivich
<tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> on or about Wed, 9 Dec 2009
09:30:00 +1100 did write/type or cause to appear in talk.politics.guns
the following:
>Scout wrote:
>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> Mr. Albritton wrote:
>>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *surely* as an assault rifle.
>>>>> A sharp pencil can kill as *easily* as an assault rifle.
>>>>>
>>>>> If guns did not exist there would be 30,000 sharp pencil murders
>>>>> every year.
>>>>
>>>> Guns PROTECT 2.5 MILLION lives every year.
>>>
>>> **Prove it. Evidence from the FBI, police reports, or REPUTABLE media
>>> sources will be acceptable. Here's the deal:
>>
>> No matter what is produced you will ignore it, deny it, or find
>> exucses to do so.
>
>**NOT ONCE, has the evidence been presented, so I can hardly reject what has
>not been presented. Nor can you claim I have rejected what has not been
>presented.
>
>>
>> exactly what you asked for.
>
Oh, its not hard at all.
You're the one who seems convinced that unless a firearm is
effective 1005 of the time, it must be useless to carry one.
>>> Why is it that anti-gun nuts seemly feel that if something is not
>>> effective 100% of the time, it must be useless?
>>
>> Here they are again:
>>
>> If the assailant has the element of surprise (ie: Whacks the citizen
>> over the back of the noggin with a large lump of wood/baseball bat, et
>> al), then the citizen will just lie there, unconscious. Maybe even
>> dead.
Yes... and
>>
>> Why do you feel the need to ask such silly questions?
>> What benefit would a gun serve, for the above-mentioned citizen?
The same as ... oh having a smoke detector in your house when a
787 full of nuns and Orphans crashes into it.
The same as having a full up trauma kit handy when that undetected
aneurysm ruptures and you internally bleed out in seconds.
the same as my trying to answer your silly question, seeing as how
your reading comprehension are as lacking as your analytical skills.
>> Let's see if you can manage an answer this time.
>>
>> I have one further question:
>>
>> What is an "anti-gun nut"?
The "Gun Nut" is the sort of person who for whatever reasons,
"goes nuts" when the subject is guns. They believe firearms have
magical powers, either to cloud men's minds, or to ward off evil.
Amulets of Damnation or Talismans of Protection - either magical
perspective is, to say the least, "nutty"
The Anti-Gun Nuts, as a group are convinced that the mere
presence of a firearm will cause them to go off their nut and forget
all they ever were taught about "being nice" and "don't hitting", and
"thou shalt do no murder" and the like, and immediately begin to shoot
at their neighbors.
The other extreme is the person who claims that a gun is the
solution to all that could ever possibly go wrong. Their attitude
seems to be that merely having a gun will ward off all evil, restore
your virility, and waxes the car, all in one simple little talisman.
Both are nuts when the subject is guns.
So which sort of "gun nut" are you?
-
pyotr filipivich
"Quemadmoeum gladuis neminem occidit, occidentis telum est. "
Lucius Annaeus Seneca, circa 45 AD
(A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer's hands.)
Hermann
You seem to interpret things totally different then the supreme court.
But then again you are a loony loser posting here to gain much needed
and desired attention. I am amused that you storm into this ng with
phony credentials to try and impress people that have been around the
block and paid their dues in the Military. Isn't it true that you got
fired from your last job as an insurance salesman. Now that is pathetic!
We have had cowards here before trying to impress us as to the wonderful
reasons that they did not serve their country. You sir, are a coward, a
liar and obviously a treasonous slug. Go find yourself some other NG
to infest with your seditious bullshit. Over and out!
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
>
> You seem to interpret things totally different then the supreme court.
Yeah well get back to us, son, when you gun goofballs are carrying
shotguns in downtown New York City.
;-)
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
> Andrew Swallow <am.sw...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
> :
>
> I say again: And no appreciable change in murder rates in London when
> firearms were banned.
No doubt McCall is giving another gun goofball "statistic", attempting to
prove banning guns has no effect at all.
But since the good citizens were no longer able to protect themselves with guns,
then the murder rate should have gone *up* as they were murdered by criminals.
Never happened, according to goofball McCall himself.
Common sense trumps the gun goofballs phony "statistics".
;-)