!56 percent want to go back to pre-ObamaCare system

[Kurt Nicklas]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/05/22/fox-news-poll-56-percent-want-to-go-back-to-pre-obamacare-system/

Never forget what Pelosi said: You have to pass the law in order to
know what's in it.

Never forget

[MarkA]

Nice poll. They asked people what they think their situation *will be*
like under the ACA. So, they're looking at how effective GOP scare
tactics have been, not how happy people are with what they have.

Here's a thought: we KNOW the old system is broken, and, if it doesn't
change, it's going to get even worse. How about we try to make some
modest changes, and see what happens? Based on the new information, we
can make further changes later on. You know, like the way EVOLUTION
works. We don't (can't) have to come up with a perfect system in one
attempt. We can make incremental improvements.

The GOP is shitting their pants because they know that once people get a
taste of a better health care system, they will NEVER want to go back.

--
MarkA
Keeper of Things Put There Only Just The Night Before
About eight o'clock

[Davej]

On May 23, 11:44 am, Kurt Nicklas <kurtnick...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/05/22/fox-news-poll-56-percent-w...
>

You teabaggers can still run off to Canada, oops.

[raven1]

On Thu, 23 May 2013 09:44:24 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas
<kurtn...@gmail.com> wrote:

>http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/05/22/fox-news-poll-56-percent-want-to-go-back-to-pre-obamacare-system/

Wow, I'm *shocked* that a FOX News poll would show such a thing...

[Tom McDonald]

"Here are your winnings, sir."

[Wayne]

"MarkA" wrote in message
news:pan.2013.05.23....@nowhere.invalid...

Whattadufus....
You know damned well that the GOP wanted to do a piecemeal approach, instead
of having Pelosi's all singing, all dancing approach that nobody understands
even yet.

It is totally hosed up now, when it could have been a change for the better.

[Zepp]

Yeah, we saw the 'piecemeal approach' the GOP wanted: chop up the poor
for sausages.

[Zepp]

Only 156%. Wow. I would have thought Faux could find 3 out of every 1
Americans opposed it.

[Zepp]

I doubt they would be welcome anywhere outside of Alberta.

[MarkA]

Well, it DOES solve two problems at once!

[r@n�t.cda SpamƁusteᴙ]

On 5/23/2013 11:51 AM, Zepp wrote:

> Path: not-for-mail
> From: Zepp <de...@gone.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.society.liberalism,alt.atheism,talk.politics.guns,can.politics,alt.fan.air-america
> Subject: Re: !56 percent want to go back to pre-ObamaCare system
> Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 18:52:56 +0000 (UTC)
> Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
> Lines: 12
> Message-ID: <knloi8$dm0$2...@dont-email.me>
> References: <ade817cf-ac0f-4734...@l5g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>
> <mlnsp8tb8vgs5idpf...@4ax.com>
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[JohnJohnsn]

Britain's cherished, lousy National Health Service
August 08, 2012|By Theodore Dalrymple

Two studies show that the National Health Service performs poorly compared to other nations. Yet the British were the most satisfied with their healthcare of all the populations surveyed.

In April, the British Medical Journal published an article about two studies conducted by the New York-based Commonwealth Fund. The studies compared the healthcare systems of 14 advanced countries, and on the 20 measures of comparison,Britain'scentralized National Health Service performed well in 13, indifferently in two and badly in five.

On several measures, the NHS came out the worst of all the systems examined. For example, it ranked worst for five-year survival rates in cervical, breast and colon cancers. It was also worst for 30-day mortality rates after admission to a hospital for either hemorrhagic or ischemic stroke. On only one clinical measure was it best: the avoidance of amputation of the foot in diabetic gangrene.

This hardly seems like a cause for national rejoicing, yet according to the report, the British were the most satisfied with their healthcare of all the populations surveyed. They were the most confident that in the event of illness, they would receive the best and most up-to-date treatment; and they were the least worried that their personal finances would prevent them from receiving proper treatment.

So, how is it that the population most confident that it will receive treatment of the highest possible standard, featuring the latest medical advances, actually has the worst survival rates in precisely those diseases that require the most up-to-date treatments?

One explanation is ignorance. The average Briton or Swede is unlikely to know that the five-year survival rate for colorectal cancer is 51.6% in Britain but 59.8% in Sweden, or that the 30-day fatality rates for myocardial infarction in those two countries are 6.3% and 2.9%, respectively. (The figures for the United States are 65.5% and 5.1%.) By contrast, the average Briton knows that if he suffers a heart attack, he will be taken to the hospital and connected to a lot of machines, from which he concludes that he is having the best possible treatment.

In my youth, I often heard the refrain that the NHS was "the envy of the world," and people in Britain are still inclined to believe that, even though they probably have never met anyone who envied the NHS and, indeed, probably know Continental Europeans residing in Britain who hurry home as soon as they require medical treatment, horrified by the prospect of subjecting themselves to a British hospital.

-30-

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/aug/08/opinion/la-oe-dalrymple-british-health-system-20120808

British public opinion on National Health Service reform
http://www.spacecoastconservative.com/britcare89.pdf

NHS (UK) Has Lowest Satisfaction Rate Ever - Medical News Today
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/246616.php

Doesn't Canuckistan's health care system mirror the UK's?

Opinions on [Canadian] Medicare

Polling data in the last few years have consistently cited medicare as among the most important political issues in the minds of Canadian voters. Along with peacekeeping, medicare was found, based on a CBC poll, to be among the foremost defining characteristics of Canada.

It has increasingly become a source of controversy in Canadian politics. As a recent report from the Health Council of Canada has noted "Herein lies one of the puzzles of Canadian health care: Canadians increasingly view the health care system as unsustainable and under threat, even as their own experiences with the system are mostly positive."

As analysts have noted, the root of the concern may be traced to successful cost control efforts in the mid 1990s, where public health expenditure per capita, in inflation-adjusted dollars, actually fell. These efforts arose from efforts by the federal government to deal with its deficit, which led to cuts in their transfers to the provinces, and in turn to squeezing hospital budgets and physician reimbursements. The number of physicians being trained was reduced. The result was seen in increased wait times, particularly for elective procedures. More recently, government has been reinvesting in health care, but public confidence has been slow to recover.

A number of studies have compared Canada with other countries, and concluded that each system has its own strengths and weaknesses. The World Health Organization, ranked Canada in 2000 as 30th worldwide in performance. However, the basis for these rankings has been highly contentious. As Deber noted, "The measure of "overall health system performance" derives from adjusting "goal attainment" for educational attainment. Although goal attainment is in theory based on five measures (level and distribution of health, level and distribution of "responsiveness" and "fairness of financial contribution"), the actual values assigned to most countries, including Canada, were never directly measured. The scores do not incorporate any information about the actual workings of the system, other than as reflected in life expectancy. The primary reason for Canada's relatively low standing rests on the relatively high educational level of its population, particularly as compared to France, rather than on any features of its health system." Other countries had similar complaints, and the WHO has not repeated this ranking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(Canada)

OOPS! :)

[r@nyet.cda SpamƁusteᴙ]

On 5/23/2013 1:47 PM, MarkA wrote:

>>>>> Never forget

I AM A SPAMMER

[r@nyet.cda SpamƁusteᴙ]

On 5/23/2013 10:23 AM, Davej wrote:
> On May 23, 11:44 am, Kurt Nicklas <kurtnick...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

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[r@nyet.cda SpamƁusteᴙ]

On 5/23/2013 11:54 AM, Zepp wrote:
> On Thu, 23 May 2013 10:23:52 -0700, Davej wrote:
>
>> On May 23, 11:44 am, Kurt Nicklas <kurtnick...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

--

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[r@nyet.cda SpamƁusteᴙ]

On 5/23/2013 11:52 AM, Wayne wrote:
>
>
> "MarkA" wrote in message
> news:pan.2013.05.23....@nowhere.invalid...

>>> Never forget

[r@nyet.cda SpamƁusteᴙ]

On 5/23/2013 11:52 AM, Zepp wrote:

> Path: not-for-mail
> From: Zepp <de...@gone.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.society.liberalism,alt.atheism,talk.politics.guns,can.politics,alt.fan.air-america
> Subject: Re: !56 percent want to go back to pre-ObamaCare system
> Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 18:52:56 +0000 (UTC)
> Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
> Lines: 12
> Message-ID: <knloi8$dm0$2...@dont-email.me>
> References: <ade817cf-ac0f-4734...@l5g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>
> <mlnsp8tb8vgs5idpf...@4ax.com>
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> User-Agent: Pan/0.136 (I'm far too busy being delicious; GIT 926a150
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[Don Kresch]

On Thu, 23 May 2013 13:02:20 -0400, MarkA <nob...@nowhere.invalid>
scrawled in blood:

>The GOP is shitting their pants because they know that once people get a
>taste of a better health care system, they will NEVER want to go back.

More of the same isn't better.

Don
aa#51, Knight of BAAWA, Jedi Slackmaster
Praise "Bob" or burn in Slacklessness trying not to.

[raven1]

On Thu, 23 May 2013 13:44:27 -0500, Tom McDonald <kil...@gmail.com>
wrote:

:)

[Frank Galikanokus]

fox poll LOL

This is BS most of the law has not taken effect yet. The parts that have been enacted are
being welcomed.

JAM

[linuxgal]

MarkA wrote:
> The GOP is shitting their pants because they know that once people get a
> taste of a better health care system, they will NEVER want to go back.

Sure, but, uh, where are the Canadians gonna go to get MRI scans now?

[duke]

Not with the "skinny" system coming.

The dukester, American - American

********************************************
Repeal Obama
You simply can't fix stupid.
********************************************

[duke]

It won't now. The "skinny" system probably won't cover drugs.

[Zepp]

They can pay $2,500 in the US, or they can get it already covered in
Canada. http://www.cihi.ca/CIHI-ext-portal/internet/en/document/types+of
+care/specialized+services/medical+imaging/release_22jul2010

[linuxgal]

No, I mean before they die.

[Zepp]

Tell us about the horrific waits in Canada, and compare with the wait
period the unlucky 45 million Americans face.

[Jeanne Douglas]

In article <519F969A...@nospam.net>,
Frank Galikanokus <FrankGal...@nospam.net> wrote:

> Kunt Nicklas wrote:
> >
> > http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/05/22/fox-news-poll-56-percent-want-to-

> > go-back-to-pre-obamacare-system/
> >
> > Never forget what Pelosi said: You have to pass the law in order to
> > know what's in it.
> >
> > Never forget
>
> fox poll LOL
>
> This is BS most of the law has not taken effect yet. The parts that have been
> enacted are
> being welcomed.

By rolling out protections for children, for those with pre-existing
conditions and those with adult children up to 26, there are now
millions of American families who LOVE the ACA. I think even the most
conservative of those parents would turn against any politician who
threatened the health of their children.

I wonder what effect the full rollout of the ACA will have on the 2014
midterms.

--

JD

"Osama Bin Laden is dead and GM is alive."--VP Joseph Biden

[SaPeIsMa]

"Jeanne Douglas" <hlwd...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message
news:hlwdjsd2-2C05C8...@news.giganews.com...

> In article <519F969A...@nospam.net>,
> Frank Galikanokus <FrankGal...@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>> Kunt Nicklas wrote:
>> >
>> > http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/05/22/fox-news-poll-56-percent-want-to-

>> > go-back-to-pre-Obamacare-system/

>> >
>> > Never forget what Pelosi said: You have to pass the law in order to
>> > know what's in it.
>> >
>> > Never forget
>>
>> fox poll LOL
>>
>> This is BS most of the law has not taken effect yet. The parts that have
>> been enacted are being welcomed.
>

That's a complete crock
Even Unions are now realizing what a screw-up piece of garbage Obamacare
actually is, and that it will reduce health care quality and increase costs
for the great majority of the population

> By rolling out protections for children, for those with pre-existing
> conditions and those with adult children up to 26, there are now
> millions of American families who LOVE the ACA. I think even the most
> conservative of those parents would turn against any politician who
> threatened the health of their children.
>

The funny notion is that removing Obamacare would "threaten the health"
Particularly when you consider how many people are killed and maimed
annually by malpractice from the so-called 'medical profession'

> I wonder what effect the full rollout of the ACA will have on the 2014
> midterms.
>

A takeover of Congress by the GOP even more drastic than what followed the
Clinton 1994 Assault Weapon Ban

[Tom McDonald]

Republicans are so afraid of that happening that they are working
tirelessly to stall it until 2015, mostly by cutting off funding for
implementing the ACA. It might even work.

[Klaus Schadenfreude]

OK, sure!

Excessive wait times for magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) studies are
a major problem in the Canadian healthcare system.

Efforts to reduce wait times for MRI have focused on increasing the
number of diagnostic imaging devices, as Canada lags far behind other
countries in this regard. For instance, Japan and the United States
have 35.3 and 19.5 MRI units per million population, respectively,
whereas Canada has only 4.6.

Management of MRI Wait Lists in Canada
Gestion des listes d'attente pour les IRM au Canada
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2653696/

[Free Lunch]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 16:18:33 -0700, linuxgal <linu...@cleanposts.com>
wrote in alt.atheism:

Why do reactionaries keep defaming Canada's medical care system? It
costs less and health outcomes are better. What's not to like?

[Zepp]

Fuck's sake, Klod, how old is that propaganda. Canada has ten times the
MRI units that you're claiming.

[Klaus Schadenfreude]

>Fuck's sake, Klod, how old is that propaganda.

2009. Can't you read?

>Canada has ten times the MRI units that you're claiming.

I didn't claim anything. I just posted this abstract.

Feel free to post facts supporting YOUR claim.

That's how it works, you stupid, stoned motherfucker.

[chuckle]

[SaPeIsMa]

"Tom McDonald" <kil...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:172ot.4509$bo....@newsfe27.iad...

Good
The damage that the ACA has already done is horrendous
The damage that it will do in the future is even worse.
Obamacare should be relegated to the dustbin of history
It was bad law when it was passed.
And now we know that it is even WORSE than we were allowed to know when it
was passed.

[Free Lunch]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 14:49:54 +0000 (UTC), Zepp <de...@gone.com> wrote in
alt.atheism:

>Fuck's sake, Klod, how old is that propaganda. Canada has ten times the
>MRI units that you're claiming.

The source for the data is identified as:

Making the best use of radiological resources in Canada.
Stein LA
Healthc Pap. 2005; 6(1):18-23.

Yep, hopelessly out of date.

[Free Lunch]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 07:58:07 -0700, Klaus Schadenfreude
<klausscha...@yahoo.com> wrote in alt.atheism:

Even worse, the writers of that used

Making the best use of radiological resources in Canada.
Stein LA
Healthc Pap. 2005; 6(1):18-23.

Unless we go back to Stein's article, we only know that the data is at
least eight years old.

[Klaus Schadenfreude]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 10:03:03 -0500, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us>

Eight year old data versus Zepp's opinion.

Feel free to provide something more current. That would be perfectly
acceptable.

[SaPeIsMa]

"Free Lunch" <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote in message
news:e7i1q89hoplcdns1o...@4ax.com...

Your ignorance ?

[Zepp]

Utter bullshit. You're crapping your pants because it's obviously
already improving the lives of millions.

> Obamacare should be relegated to the dustbin of history It was bad law
> when it was passed.
> And now we know that it is even WORSE than we were allowed to know when
> it was passed.

Liar.

[Andy]

On May 25, 10:49 am, Zepp <d...@gone.com> wrote:
> Fuck's sake, Klod, how old is that propaganda.  Canada has ten times the
> MRI units that you're claiming.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, 25 May 2013 05:46:02 -0700, Klaus Schadenfreude wrote:

And for some stupid reason, this is posted in a Canadian politics
newsgroup. A nation that has a Conservative government and no
Obamacare! I remember when the USA's American Medical Association
said that the HMO system brought in under Nixon was "Socialist Health
Care", and now the morons want it back!

As you recall, Richard Nixon was that motherfucking Democrat.

WTF is this bullshit? Right wing Americans habitually exposing their
ignorance to the world again?

[Zepp]

For some reason Klod seems to think he can impress Canadians by assuring
them the capital city of Canada is Montreal.

[Adrian]

I made some great friends while working in Dayton years-ago. Former
Air Force and Navy vets. Good people. But their visits to Canada
consisted of Ontario, not Toronto, but Ft. Francis for hunting. So
far away from Toronto. Geographically, you can fit 1.5 times the
state of Texas in Ontario, and still have room left over for Arkansas
and perhaps Rhode Island. "You guys sell milk in bags!" It was as
if we invented the idea, when in fact is wasn't us. We just invented
the cows that put milk into them.

[Zepp]

I remember Ontario in the 50's. Get outside of Sudbury, and you could
drive 100 miles at night and not see a single electric light. So no, not
exactly Toronto. Or even Ottawa.

[Adrian]

1/2 of Sudbury and a lot of North Ontario is French speaking.
Sudbury is still more or less mid Ontario. When you get to Thunder
Bay, there's a massive chunk of real estate well north of it. If you
start driving from the Quebec border through Ontario, it takes 2 days
of solid 24 hour driving to hit Manitoba, after that it's less than
that amount to hit the Rockies.

[Zepp]

Yup. Took that long to drive from Ottawa to Sault Saint Marie, I
remember. Most of what's now Ontario was part of the Northwest
Territories, and the Keewatin. And the north shore has polar bears.

Quebec is even wilder, extending well into the Arctic.

[Tom McDonald]

How is it bad?

[Zepp]

He's a right winger, so not only does he not know if the stuff he's
saying is true, but he doesn't give a shit if it's true. It's what he's
told to tell us.

[SaPeIsMa]

"Tom McDonald" <kil...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:_k8ot.4828$tp3...@newsfe23.iad...

It's bad enough that unions are starting to realize that they will be worse
off with Obamacare. And they are not happy.
There will be MAJOR housecleaning of Democrats in the next election
Just like there was after Clinton's Assault Weapon Ban..

[Tom McDonald]

So...you can't answer my question. Good to know.

[Zepp]

Utter bullshit. Here in California, the unions enthusiastically support
it.

> There will be MAJOR housecleaning of Democrats in the next election Just
> like there was after Clinton's Assault Weapon Ban..

More utter bullshit. You live in the Faux bubble, don't you?

[uster@nyet.ca SpamБuster]

--


==================================================================
SPAMMED INTO NON-RELEVANT NEWSGROUPS &/OR COUNTRY
==================================================================

[uster@nyet.ca SpamБuster]

[uster@nyet.ca SpamБuster]

[uster@nyet.ca SpamБuster]

[uster@nyet.ca SpamБuster]

[uster@nyet.ca SpamБuster]

[uster@nyet.ca SpamБuster]

[uster@nyet.ca SpamБuster]

[uster@nyet.ca SpamБuster]

On 5/25/2013 7:22 AM, Free Lunch wrote:
> On Fri, 24 May 2013 16:18:33 -0700, linuxgal <linu...@cleanposts.com>
> wrote in alt.atheism:
>
>> Zepp wrote:
>>> On Fri, 24 May 2013 14:59:11 -0700, linuxgal wrote:
>>>
>>>> MarkA wrote:
>>>>> The GOP is shitting their pants because they know that once people get
>>>>> a taste of a better health care system, they will NEVER want to go
>>>>> back.
>>>>
>>>> Sure, but, uh, where are the Canadians gonna go to get MRI scans now?
>>>
>>> They can pay $2,500 in the US, or they can get it already covered in
>>> Canada. http://www.cihi.ca/CIHI-ext-portal/internet/en/document/types+of
>>> +care/specialized+services/medical+imaging/release_22jul2010
>>>
>>
>> No, I mean before they die.
>
> Why do reactionaries keep defaming Canada's medical care system? It
> costs less and health outcomes are better. What's not to like?
>

[uster@nyet.ca SpamБuster]

[uster@nyet.ca SpamБuster]

>> Canada has ten times the MRI units that you're claiming.
>

> I didn't claim anything. I just posted this abstract.
>
> Feel free to post facts supporting YOUR claim.
>
> That's how it works, you stupid, stoned motherfucker.
>
> [chuckle]
>

[uster@nyet.ca SpamБuster]

On 5/25/2013 7:49 AM, Zepp wrote:
> Fuck's sake, Klod, how old is that propaganda. Canada has ten times the

> MRI units that you're claiming.
>

[uster@nyet.ca SpamБuster]

[uster@nyet.ca SpamБuster]

[uster@nyet.ca SpamБuster]

[uster@nyet.ca SpamБuster]

[SaPeIsMa]

"Tom McDonald" <kil...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:l2cot.18582$nm.1...@newsfe14.iad...

I'm so sorry to not that concepts can enter one of your ears, exit the
other, and never slow down in between because of material resistance
You have my condolences.

[Tom McDonald]

And yet it's you who doesn't seem to have the mental mass to answer my
question as asked. Or perhaps you can and choose not to?

[uster@nyet.ca SpamБuster]

[Gray Guest]

On 25 May 2013, you wrote in talk.politics.guns:

> In article <519F969A...@nospam.net>,
> Frank Galikanokus <FrankGal...@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>> Kunt Nicklas wrote:
>> >
>> > http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/05/22/fox-news-poll-56-percent-wa
>> > nt-to- go-back-to-pre-obamacare-system/
>> >
>> > Never forget what Pelosi said: You have to pass the law in order to
>> > know what's in it.
>> >
>> > Never forget
>>
>> fox poll LOL
>>
>> This is BS most of the law has not taken effect yet. The parts that
>> have been enacted are
>> being welcomed.
>
> By rolling out protections for children, for those with pre-existing
> conditions and those with adult children up to 26, there are now
> millions of American families who LOVE the ACA. I think even the most
> conservative of those parents would turn against any politician who
> threatened the health of their children.
>
> I wonder what effect the full rollout of the ACA will have on the 2014
> midterms.
>

Hey docuhebreath. i've been diagnosed with diabetes sice 1992. I workded as a
contractor and changed employers and insurance companies frequntly. Never
had a problem.

You don't suppose your a lying cunt, do you?

--
Refusenik #1

Libs suffer from Eleutherophobia. And there is no cure.

Obama called the SEALs and THEY got bin Laden. When the SEALs called Obama,
THEY GOT DENIED. Fuck Obama

[Gray Guest]

Frank Galikanokus <FrankGal...@nospam.net> wrote in
news:519F969A...@nospam.net:

> Kunt Nicklas wrote:
>>
>> http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/05/22/fox-news-poll-56-percent-want

>> -to-go-back-to-pre-obamacare-system/

>>
>> Never forget what Pelosi said: You have to pass the law in order to
>> know what's in it.
>>
>> Never forget
>
> fox poll LOL
>
> This is BS most of the law has not taken effect yet. The parts that have
> been enacted are being welcomed.
>

> JAM

You are delusional.

[SaPeIsMa]

"Tom McDonald" <kil...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:0Afot.18897$kF.1...@newsfe30.iad...

LOL
You're the one making stupid presumptions as to motive
Why don't you just Google "unions unhappy Obamacare"
Even Forbes had something to say about it.

But that would require that you get off your fat lazy ass, instead of just
being responsible for your own education..

[Zepp]

Yeah, 'cos if people want to know what's going on with Unions, Forbes is
the first place they should check!

Ha ha ha.

[Tom McDonald]

How is Obamacare bad? Can you tell me? So far, you have only insult and
cant.

[Klaus Schadenfreude]

On Sun, 26 May 2013 14:54:13 -0500, Tom McDonald <kil...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>How is Obamacare bad? Can you tell me? So far, you have only insult and
>cant.

Why not ask your own people?

Union leaders argue insurance costs for millions of workers will
increase under the president's health-care plan so they might have to
drop their existing plan, despite Obama promising the opposite.
Their primary concern is the multi-employer or so-called Taft-Hartley
plans that cover unionized workers in retail, construction,
transportation and other industries that frequently use seasonal and
temporary employment.


Read more:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/05/25/unions-reliable-democratic-supporters-split-from-president-on-obamacare/#ixzz2UQlWiQDH

Not to mention the fact that it does NOTHING to make health care more
affordable.

N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

Other than that, it's splendid.
[chuckle]

[Tom McDonald]

Well, at least *you* tried.

[Klaus Schadenfreude]

On Sun, 26 May 2013 15:30:00 -0500, Tom McDonald <kil...@gmail.com>

And succeeded. You're welcome.

[Zepp]

Fox News.

Gawd, you would think after the last election you would have learned that
Faux News is just there to bullshit the morons on behalf of the GOP...

[Zepp]

It's already put a significant dent in prescription prices.
Here in California, medical insurance rates will be, ON AVERAGE, 20%
lower by this time next year.

[Klaus Schadenfreude]

Feel free to refute.

Oh, you didn't.

"POINT PROVEN!"
Lee Harrison 1957-2012, RIP

[Zepp]

Why don't you go see with SEIU and AFL/CIO have to say about it on their
websites, Klod?

Do that, and you won't look as big a moron as you do right now.

[Zepp]

Sure bubbles. Gotcha refutation right here:


>
> For instance: http://www.seiu.org/the-healthcare-law/
>
> or how about the AFL/CIO? http://www.aflcio.org/Issues/Health-Care/The-
> Affordable-Care-Act-Timeline

[uster@nyet.ca SpamБuster]

On 5/26/2013 4:00 PM, Klaus Schadenfreude wrote:
> On Sun, 26 May 2013 22:32:04 +0000 (UTC), Zepp <de...@gone.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 26 May 2013 13:30:56 -0700, Klaus Schadenfreude wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 26 May 2013 15:30:00 -0500, Tom McDonald <kil...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/26/2013 3:00 PM, Klaus Schadenfreude wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 26 May 2013 14:54:13 -0500, Tom McDonald <kil...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> How is Obamacare bad? Can you tell me? So far, you have only insult
>>>>>> and cant.
>>>>>
>>

>>>>> Read more:
>>>>> http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/05/25/unions-reliable-democratic-
>> supporters-split-from-president-on-obamacare/#ixzz2UQlWiQDH
>>>>>
>>>>> Not to mention the fact that it does NOTHING to make health care more
>>>>> affordable.

[Scout]

"Tom McDonald" <kil...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:NLtot.4579$u_4....@newsfe09.iad...

Well, let's see....we have employers shifting people to part time, and yet
more employers cutting the hours of their part timers so that in the end
they won't have to provide them with medical insurance. Then despite this
reduction in their income these people now MUST buy medical insurance they
can't afford or be hit with a massive punitive tax.

Oh, but you say that's ok the 'government' (read as the American tax payer)
must now pick up the tax resulting in yet MORE taxation on them.

Sorry, but I'm not seeing the good in this, but rather a lot of people being
shoved further down the economic ladder buy either having their income
slashed, or having it taken away to feed the increasing spending appetite of
the government.

��[T]he government of the United States is a definite government, confined
to specified objects. It is not like the state governments, whose powers are
more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government.�
-James Madison

�To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his
fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose
fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate
arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone
the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.�
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Joseph Milligan, April 6, 1816

�When all government, domestic and foreign, in little as in great things,
shall be drawn to Washington as the center of all power, it will render
powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become
as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated.�
-Thomas Jefferson to Charles Hammond, 1821. The Writings of Thomas
Jefferson, (Memorial Edition) Lipscomb and Bergh, editors, ME 15:332

In 1794, when Congress appropriated $15,000 for relief of French refugees
who fled from insurrection in San Domingo to Baltimore and Philadelphia,
James Madison stood on the floor of the House to object saying, �I cannot
undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted
a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of
their constituents.�
-James Madison, 4 Annals of congress 179 (1794)

�If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and
will promote the general welfare, the government is no longer a limited one
possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one subject to particular
exceptions.� James Madison, �Letter to Edmund Pendleton,�
-James Madison, January 21, 1792, in The Papers of James Madison, vol. 14,
Robert A Rutland et. al., ed (Charlottesvile: University Press of
Virginia,1984).

No, sir, I don't see the good here. Care to show it to me?

[Tom McDonald]

Yup. We are seeing the fact that corporations cannot be trusted to think
of anything but their bottom lines. That's OK, in the sense that they
have fiduciary responsibilities to their owners. But that also means
they can't be trusted to provide necessary benefits for their workers.

> Oh, but you say that's ok the 'government' (read as the American tax
> payer) must now pick up the tax resulting in yet MORE taxation on them.

We'll see. Negotiating for better prices across the entire medical
enterprise would take care of that.

> Sorry, but I'm not seeing the good in this, but rather a lot of people
> being shoved further down the economic ladder buy either having their
> income slashed, or having it taken away to feed the increasing spending
> appetite of the government.

Ayup. Well, except no.

<snip>

> No, sir, I don't see the good here. Care to show it to me?
>
>

Kids stay on their parents' insurance until 26, so they can get a start
in life without worrying about insurance.

Patients will get care so they don't die.

Patient care will not cause so many people to go bankrupt.

etc.:

http://www.healthcare.gov/news/factsheets/2011/03/betterbenefits.html

[uster@nyet.ca SpamБuster]

On 5/26/2013 6:14 PM, Scout wrote:
>
>
> "Tom McDonald" <kil...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:NLtot.4579$u_4....@newsfe09.iad...
>> On 5/26/2013 9:23 AM, SaPeIsMa wrote:
>>> "Tom McDonald" <kil...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:0Afot.18897$kF.1...@newsfe30.iad...
>>>> On 5/25/2013 10:36 PM, SaPeIsMa wrote:
>>>>> "Tom McDonald" <kil...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:l2cot.18582$nm.1...@newsfe14.iad...
>>>>>> On 5/25/2013 6:16 PM, SaPeIsMa wrote:
>>>>>>> "Tom McDonald" <kil...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:_k8ot.4828$tp3...@newsfe23.iad...
>>>>>>>> On 5/25/2013 9:56 AM, SaPeIsMa wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Tom McDonald" <kil...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:172ot.4509$bo....@newsfe27.iad...
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/25/2013 5:26 AM, Jeanne Douglas wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In article <519F969A...@nospam.net>,
>>>>>>>>>>> Frank Galikanokus <FrankGal...@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Kunt Nicklas wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>

[Scout]

"Tom McDonald" <kil...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:VQyot.9531$EM6....@newsfe04.iad...

Or maybe government regulations has made it far to expensive to provide?

>> Oh, but you say that's ok the 'government' (read as the American tax
>> payer) must now pick up the tax resulting in yet MORE taxation on them.
>
> We'll see. Negotiating for better prices across the entire medical
> enterprise would take care of that.

You mean the inflated prices largely caused by government interference?

>> Sorry, but I'm not seeing the good in this, but rather a lot of people
>> being shoved further down the economic ladder buy either having their
>> income slashed, or having it taken away to feed the increasing spending
>> appetite of the government.
>
> Ayup. Well, except no.
>
> <snip>
>
>> No, sir, I don't see the good here. Care to show it to me?
>>
>>
> Kids stay on their parents' insurance until 26, so they can get a start in
> life without worrying about insurance.

Hmmm.. Last time I checked people are adults at 21. By that time you should
already have your start in life.

Why should your parents continue to be forced to support you long after
you're a functioning adult?

Maybe they should also be forced to supply room and board, transportation,
and living expenses while they're at it?

[uster@nyet.ca SpamБuster]

On 5/26/2013 6:51 PM, Scout wrote:
>
>
> "Tom McDonald" <kil...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:VQyot.9531$EM6....@newsfe04.iad...
>> On 5/26/2013 8:14 PM, Scout wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "Tom McDonald" <kil...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:NLtot.4579$u_4....@newsfe09.iad...
>>>> On 5/26/2013 9:23 AM, SaPeIsMa wrote:
>>>>> "Tom McDonald" <kil...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:0Afot.18897$kF.1...@newsfe30.iad...
>>>>>> On 5/25/2013 10:36 PM, SaPeIsMa wrote:
>>>>>>> "Tom McDonald" <kil...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:l2cot.18582$nm.1...@newsfe14.iad...
>>>>>>>> On 5/25/2013 6:16 PM, SaPeIsMa wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Tom McDonald" <kil...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:_k8ot.4828$tp3...@newsfe23.iad...
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/25/2013 9:56 AM, SaPeIsMa wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> "Tom McDonald" <kil...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> news:172ot.4509$bo....@newsfe27.iad...
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/25/2013 5:26 AM, Jeanne Douglas wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In article <519F969A...@nospam.net>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Frank Galikanokus <FrankGal...@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kunt Nicklas wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[RD Sandman]

Tom McDonald <kil...@gmail.com> wrote in

news:khuot.11722$rW2....@newsfe05.iad:

He is pretty much correct. ACA does very little to help medicine or
doctors. It is basically insurance reform yet doesn't address tort
reform.

--
Sleep well, tonight.....

RD (The Sandman

You can be young without money, but you
can't be old without it.

[Tom McDonald]

Please mark your snips. It's the honest thing to do.

[Zepp]

Given that tort costs amount to slightly over 1% of medical costs, I
don't see that as a big problem.

It IS a handy excuse to further erode the right to legal redress though,
isn't it?

[Don Kresch]

On Sun, 26 May 2013 20:41:00 -0500, Tom McDonald <kil...@gmail.com>
scrawled in blood:

>On 5/26/2013 8:14 PM, Scout wrote:

>> Well, let's see....we have employers shifting people to part time, and
>> yet more employers cutting the hours of their part timers so that in the
>> end they won't have to provide them with medical insurance. Then despite
>> this reduction in their income these people now MUST buy medical
>> insurance they can't afford or be hit with a massive punitive tax.
>
>Yup. We are seeing the fact that corporations cannot be trusted to think
>of anything but their bottom lines. That's OK, in the sense that they
>have fiduciary responsibilities to their owners. But that also means
>they can't be trusted to provide necessary benefits for their workers.

Necessary by what objective standard?

>
>> Oh, but you say that's ok the 'government' (read as the American tax
>> payer) must now pick up the tax resulting in yet MORE taxation on them.
>
>We'll see. Negotiating for better prices across the entire medical
>enterprise would take care of that.

No it wouldn't.


Don
aa#51, Knight of BAAWA, Jedi Slackmaster
Praise "Bob" or burn in Slacklessness trying not to.

[Zepp]

And yet in reality, there's very little of that actually going on. And
the medical insurance they'll have to buy costs far less than it did just
six months ago, and in the long run, cuts employers out of the entire
health care picture altogether, which can only work to everyone's
advantage. BTW, a lot of those part timers will be eligible for Medicare
under the new expanded Medicare rules.

>
> Oh, but you say that's ok the 'government' (read as the American tax
> payer) must now pick up the tax resulting in yet MORE taxation on them.

And save money, because we've all been picking up the costs when people
amongst those 45 million uninsured got sick or hurt.

>
> Sorry, but I'm not seeing the good in this, but rather a lot of people
> being shoved further down the economic ladder buy either having their
> income slashed, or having it taken away to feed the increasing spending
> appetite of the government.
>

Of course you don't see good. People get helped, and it annoys your boss
at work. So you have to bark at us.
> “…[T]he government of the United States is a definite government,

> confined to specified objects. It is not like the state governments,
> whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative

> duty of the government.”
> -James Madison
>
> “To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of

> his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or
> whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to
> violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to
> everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by

> it.”

> -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Joseph Milligan, April 6, 1816
>

> “When all government, domestic and foreign, in little as in great

> things, shall be drawn to Washington as the center of all power, it will
> render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and
> will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we

> separated.”

> -Thomas Jefferson to Charles Hammond, 1821. The Writings of Thomas
> Jefferson, (Memorial Edition) Lipscomb and Bergh, editors, ME 15:332
>
> In 1794, when Congress appropriated $15,000 for relief of French
> refugees who fled from insurrection in San Domingo to Baltimore and
> Philadelphia, James Madison stood on the floor of the House to object

> saying, “I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the

> Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects

> of benevolence, the money of their constituents.”

> -James Madison, 4 Annals of congress 179 (1794)
>

> “If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money,

> and will promote the general welfare, the government is no longer a
> limited one possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one subject

> to particular exceptions.” James Madison, “Letter to Edmund Pendleton,”

[SkyEyes]

On May 26, 1:00 pm, Klaus Schadenfreude <klausschadenfre...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>
> Union leaders argue insurance costs for millions of workers will
> increase under the president's health-care plan so they might have to
> drop their existing plan, despite Obama promising the opposite.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/23/california-health-insurance-premiums_n_3328110.html

Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34 and A+ atheist
BAAWA Knight of the Golden Litterbox
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes nine at cox dot net OR
skyeyes nine at yahoo dot com

[Jeanne Douglas]

In article
<f392615a-d4ee-4871...@a15g2000pbu.googlegroups.com>,

SkyEyes <skye...@cox.net> wrote:

> On May 26, 1:00 pm, Klaus Schadenfreude <klausschadenfre...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Union leaders argue insurance costs for millions of workers will
> > increase under the president's health-care plan so they might have to
> > drop their existing plan, despite Obama promising the opposite.
>
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/23/california-health-insurance-premiums_
> n_3328110.html

"The results of Covered California's negotiations with health insurance
companies belie predictions of massive premium increases under the law,
at least for products that offer a range of benefits similar to those
currently sold to small businesses.

"The average cost of a standard health insurance plan sold on the health
insurance exchange will range from $304 to $321 a month in the Golden
State next year, Covered California announced. Compared to existing
plans with comparable benefits and factoring in available subsidies for
low- and moderate-income people, prices like these represent either a
small increase or a significant decrease in the monthly costs, the
agency said."


I'm feeling cautiously proud of my state on this.

--

JD

"Osama Bin Laden is dead and GM is alive."--VP Joseph Biden

[Dakota]

The vast majority of US citizens claim to be Christians. It they would
follow their Messiah's teaching and help the poor, the government
would not have no need to intervene in accordance with Constitutional
mandate to "promote the general welfare" as noted in the Preamble of
that venerable document.

[Klaus Schadenfreude]

There were no refutations. Did you even READ your cites?

LOL

[Klaus Schadenfreude]

On Sun, 26 May 2013 18:52:55 -0700, Spam?uster <Spam us...@nyet.ca>
wrote:

[Scout]

"Dakota" <ma...@NOSPAMmail.com> wrote in message
news:knvkji$1fp$1...@dont-email.me...

And by saying this you clearly have no real understanding of the
Constitution.

[Scout]

"Klaus Schadenfreude" <klausscha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rgm6q8tvrqslecqo9...@4ax.com...