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Re: Student debt in the USA
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abelard
Aug 21, 2018, 9:00:03 AM8/21/18
to
On Tue, 21 Aug 2018 12:57:31 +0000 (UTC), abelard must be a socialist
<abelard...@trumpite.ru> wrote:
>The Todal wrote more crap
>> That's typical abelard for you. He doesn't live in the USA, he knows
>> nothing about American student loans or American lifestyles or the job
>> market out there, but that never stops him offering the benefit of his
>> lame and pisspoor opinions.
>abelard is a dements, feeble old socialist pensioner on the largess of the
>government pension, health care and probably housing. for that uneducated,
>naive fool to proclaim himself a capitalist is of the utmost irony.
trying to keep your ignorance from the masses...
i've corrected that for you
--
www.abelard.org
<abelard...@trumpite.ru> wrote:
>The Todal wrote more crap
>> That's typical abelard for you. He doesn't live in the USA, he knows
>> nothing about American student loans or American lifestyles or the job
>> market out there, but that never stops him offering the benefit of his
>> lame and pisspoor opinions.
>abelard is a dements, feeble old socialist pensioner on the largess of the
>government pension, health care and probably housing. for that uneducated,
>naive fool to proclaim himself a capitalist is of the utmost irony.
trying to keep your ignorance from the masses...
i've corrected that for you
--
www.abelard.org
Rudy Canoza
Aug 21, 2018, 1:56:16 PM8/21/18
to
On 8/21/2018 3:30 AM, The Todal wrote:
> Anyone who thinks that perhaps America is a better place to live or that
> America has a better way of financing student college fees, needs to
> read this article.
>
> "My father described himself and my mother to Crowley as “the poster
> children for this entire financial event”, by which he meant Americans
> who seemed to have done everything right on paper, but in doing so
> contributed to their own downfall".
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/21/the-inescapable-weight-of-my-100000-student-debt
>
I feel bad for the ordeal experienced by the English major's parents,
but he was an irresponsible fool to borrow $100,000 to get a degree in
English.
> Anyone who thinks that perhaps America is a better place to live or that
> America has a better way of financing student college fees, needs to
> read this article.
>
> "My father described himself and my mother to Crowley as “the poster
> children for this entire financial event”, by which he meant Americans
> who seemed to have done everything right on paper, but in doing so
> contributed to their own downfall".
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/21/the-inescapable-weight-of-my-100000-student-debt
>
I feel bad for the ordeal experienced by the English major's parents,
but he was an irresponsible fool to borrow $100,000 to get a degree in
English.
Rudy Canoza
Aug 21, 2018, 1:58:08 PM8/21/18
to
On 8/21/2018 5:48 AM, The Todal wrote:
> On 21/08/2018 12:43, tim... wrote:
>>
>>
>> "The Todal" <the_...@icloud.com> wrote in message
>> news:fu27uf...@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> spending 200,000 dollars on an English degree is probably not a wise
>> choice
>>
>
> It may have got him his job as an editor of the New York Times. There is
> a widespread assumption both in the UK and the USA that you are much
> more marketable if you have a degree, preferably from a good university.
> It might not be true, and anyway in the USA it seems that the lenders
> exploit you without mercy.
The only remaining lender in the USA is the federal government.
> On 21/08/2018 12:43, tim... wrote:
>>
>>
>> "The Todal" <the_...@icloud.com> wrote in message
>> news:fu27uf...@mid.individual.net...
>>> Anyone who thinks that perhaps America is a better place to live or
>>> that America has a better way of financing student college fees,
>>> needs to read this article.
>>>
>>> "My father described himself and my mother to Crowley as “the poster
>>> children for this entire financial event”, by which he meant
>>> Americans who seemed to have done everything right on paper, but in
>>> doing so contributed to their own downfall".
>>>
>>> https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/21/the-inescapable-weight-of-my-100000-student-debt
>>>
>>
>> Hm,
>>> that America has a better way of financing student college fees,
>>> needs to read this article.
>>>
>>> "My father described himself and my mother to Crowley as “the poster
>>> children for this entire financial event”, by which he meant
>>> Americans who seemed to have done everything right on paper, but in
>>> doing so contributed to their own downfall".
>>>
>>> https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/21/the-inescapable-weight-of-my-100000-student-debt
>>>
>>
>>
>> spending 200,000 dollars on an English degree is probably not a wise
>> choice
>>
>
> It may have got him his job as an editor of the New York Times. There is
> a widespread assumption both in the UK and the USA that you are much
> more marketable if you have a degree, preferably from a good university.
> It might not be true, and anyway in the USA it seems that the lenders
> exploit you without mercy.
The only remaining lender in the USA is the federal government.
Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Aug 21, 2018, 3:00:01 PM8/21/18
to
In article <2nYeD.61665$1E6....@fx07.iad>, c...@philhendrie.con says...
> > children for this entire financial event?, by which he meant Americans
>
> On 8/21/2018 3:30 AM, The Todal wrote:
> > Anyone who thinks that perhaps America is a better place to live or that
> > America has a better way of financing student college fees, needs to
> > read this article.
> >
> > "My father described himself and my mother to Crowley as ?the poster
> On 8/21/2018 3:30 AM, The Todal wrote:
> > Anyone who thinks that perhaps America is a better place to live or that
> > America has a better way of financing student college fees, needs to
> > read this article.
> >
> > children for this entire financial event?, by which he meant Americans
> > who seemed to have done everything right on paper, but in doing so
> > contributed to their own downfall".
> >
> > https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/21/the-inescapable-weight-of-my-100000-student-debt
> >
>
> I feel bad for the ordeal experienced by the English major's parents,
> but he was an irresponsible fool to borrow $100,000 to get a degree in
> English.
About as useful as a 'degree' in Gender Studies.
> > contributed to their own downfall".
> >
> > https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/21/the-inescapable-weight-of-my-100000-student-debt
> >
>
> I feel bad for the ordeal experienced by the English major's parents,
> but he was an irresponsible fool to borrow $100,000 to get a degree in
> English.
Rudy Canoza
Aug 21, 2018, 3:08:47 PM8/21/18
to
doesn't pay very well. No one should borrow money to go to an expensive
private school to get a degree in English. That's completely stupid and
irresponsible. If you don't come from a rich family, you go to a state
school for that. Then you become a teacher or a book critic or some
such thing, or maybe you go to law school - English is often an
excellent undergraduate major before getting into law school. The moral
lesson in this story is not getting the degree in English, but borrowing
$100,000 to get it from an expensive private school.
"Gender studies", and in fact any program with the word "studies" in the
title, is absolute bullshit - not any value in it at all. It's nothing
but four years of politicized mental jerking off for malcontents. Those
aren't even true academic departments; they're "programs", often with
the bullshit modifier "interdisciplinary" in front of the word. I would
love to see anyone who got a degree in any program with "studies" in the
title leave school several hundred thousand dollars in debt. It would
serve them right.
Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Aug 21, 2018, 3:59:43 PM8/21/18
to
In article <1rZeD.230213$LE1....@fx35.iad>, c...@philhendrie.con
Nope. In fact English is as useless as English Literature. It's
academia for its own sake. It'll never get you anywhere, especially not
Law School. A degree in Classics would be much more useful if that is
your intent.
> "Gender studies", and in fact any program with the word "studies" in
> the title, is absolute bullshit - not any value in it at all. It's
nothing
> but four years of politicized mental jerking off for malcontents. Those
> aren't even true academic departments; they're "programs", often with
> the bullshit modifier "interdisciplinary" in front of the word. I would
> love to see anyone who got a degree in any program with "studies" in the
> title leave school several hundred thousand dollars in debt. It would
> serve them right.
No, that's all wrong. Gender Studies can get you all kinds of
employment opportunities in an environment where priority is given to
transbender rights, the #me too movement etc etc. The problem is, it's
TOO popular...there's FAR more people getting degrees in Gender Studies
than there is employment opportunities in the field.
academia for its own sake. It'll never get you anywhere, especially not
Law School. A degree in Classics would be much more useful if that is
your intent.
> "Gender studies", and in fact any program with the word "studies" in
> the title, is absolute bullshit - not any value in it at all. It's
nothing
> but four years of politicized mental jerking off for malcontents. Those
> aren't even true academic departments; they're "programs", often with
> the bullshit modifier "interdisciplinary" in front of the word. I would
> love to see anyone who got a degree in any program with "studies" in the
> title leave school several hundred thousand dollars in debt. It would
> serve them right.
employment opportunities in an environment where priority is given to
transbender rights, the #me too movement etc etc. The problem is, it's
TOO popular...there's FAR more people getting degrees in Gender Studies
than there is employment opportunities in the field.
Tommy
Aug 21, 2018, 4:24:51 PM8/21/18
to
Shitsack Moishe Goldberg <shit...@yahoo.fr> wrote in
news:MPG.35e60eed7...@eu.news.astraweb.com:
Hi Rudy
news:MPG.35e60eed7...@eu.news.astraweb.com:
Just Wondering
Aug 21, 2018, 7:53:12 PM8/21/18
to
But you got the irresponsible fool part right.
I just glanced at the article, but I love this part:
"My debt was the result, in equal measure, of a chain of rotten
luck and a system that is an abject failure by design."
His debt was the result of a decision to pursue a degree in
English Literature. He looks for someone to blame.
He should look in a mirror.
Just Wondering
Aug 21, 2018, 7:57:32 PM8/21/18
to
literature, not English. He went a hundred grand in debt
to speak about Moby Dick being a metaphor for something
or other that Herman Melville never even thought of.
The Todal
Aug 22, 2018, 6:39:30 AM8/22/18
to
subject which leads directly to a career choice.
I'm one of many who got a degree in English Literature and ended up as a
very well paid lawyer. Friends of mine did history degrees before
becoming lawyers. In fact, I think most of the lawyers I know did their
degrees in something other than law.
In America, if you want to go in for journalism as the author of the
piece presumably intended to do, English literature seems exactly right.
Those who study "journalism" are likely to be doing so at a two-bit
inferior college populated by wannabe journalists who aren't ever going
to make it in journalism.
abelard
Aug 22, 2018, 7:01:24 AM8/22/18
to
On Wed, 22 Aug 2018 11:39:28 +0100, The Todal <the_...@icloud.com>
wrote:
that's not 'a degree'
> and ended up as a
>very well paid lawyer. Friends of mine did history degrees before
>becoming lawyers.
of course they did...one of the least rigorous studies available
>In fact, I think most of the lawyers I know did their
>degrees in something other than law.
>
>In America, if you want to go in for journalism as the author of the
>piece presumably intended to do, English literature seems exactly right.
>Those who study "journalism" are likely to be doing so at a two-bit
>inferior college populated by wannabe journalists who aren't ever going
>to make it in journalism.
transfer from one non rigorous trade to another
you get paid for playing footer as well...you get paid well
for pretending to be someone else...none of it makes
you intelligent as obviously you are not
you live by bluff my boy and you're not even very good
at that
you're just a low rent over paid salesman
--
www.abelard.org
wrote:
> and ended up as a
>very well paid lawyer. Friends of mine did history degrees before
>becoming lawyers.
>In fact, I think most of the lawyers I know did their
>degrees in something other than law.
>
>In America, if you want to go in for journalism as the author of the
>piece presumably intended to do, English literature seems exactly right.
>Those who study "journalism" are likely to be doing so at a two-bit
>inferior college populated by wannabe journalists who aren't ever going
>to make it in journalism.
you get paid for playing footer as well...you get paid well
for pretending to be someone else...none of it makes
you intelligent as obviously you are not
you live by bluff my boy and you're not even very good
at that
you're just a low rent over paid salesman
--
www.abelard.org
The Todal
Aug 22, 2018, 7:19:33 AM8/22/18
to
abelard
Aug 22, 2018, 7:25:18 AM8/22/18
to
On Wed, 22 Aug 2018 12:19:31 +0100, The Todal <the_...@icloud.com>
s usual you have not a word of refutation...of course we
both know why
--
www.abelard.org
both know why
--
www.abelard.org
Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Aug 22, 2018, 8:18:24 AM8/22/18
to
In article <fu4sr0...@mid.individual.net>, the_...@icloud.com
says...
> >>> children for this entire financial event?, by which he meant
future in either English Lit or History?
says...
>
> On 22/08/2018 00:53, Just Wondering wrote:
> > On 8/21/2018 11:56 AM, Rudy Canoza wrote:
> >> On 8/21/2018 3:30 AM, The Todal wrote:
> >>> Anyone who thinks that perhaps America is a better place to live or
> >>> that America has a better way of financing student college fees,
> >>> needs to read this article.
> >>>
> >>> "My father described himself and my mother to Crowley as ?the poster
> On 22/08/2018 00:53, Just Wondering wrote:
> > On 8/21/2018 11:56 AM, Rudy Canoza wrote:
> >> On 8/21/2018 3:30 AM, The Todal wrote:
> >>> Anyone who thinks that perhaps America is a better place to live or
> >>> that America has a better way of financing student college fees,
> >>> needs to read this article.
> >>>
> >>> children for this entire financial event?, by which he meant
> >>> Americans who seemed to have done everything right on paper, but in
> >>> doing so contributed to their own downfall".
> >>>
> >>> https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/21/the-inescapable-weight-of-my-100000-student-debt
> >>
> >>
> >> I feel bad for the ordeal experienced by the English major's parents,
> >> but he was an irresponsible fool to borrow $100,000 to get a degree in
> >> English.
> >
> > Two degrees, a BA and a MA, and in English Literature not English.
> > But you got the irresponsible fool part right.
> > I just glanced at the article, but I love this part:
> > "My debt was the result, in equal measure, of a chain of rotten
> > luck and a system that is an abject failure by design."
> > His debt was the result of a decision to pursue a degree in
> > English Literature. He looks for someone to blame.
> > He should look in a mirror.
>
>
> Either you don't have a university education or you've chosen to study a
> subject which leads directly to a career choice.
>
> I'm one of many who got a degree in English Literature and ended up as a
> very well paid lawyer. Friends of mine did history degrees before
> becoming lawyers. In fact, I think most of the lawyers I know did their
> degrees in something other than law.
Presumably you all went into the shyster business because there was no
> >>> doing so contributed to their own downfall".
> >>>
> >>> https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/21/the-inescapable-weight-of-my-100000-student-debt
> >>
> >>
> >> I feel bad for the ordeal experienced by the English major's parents,
> >> but he was an irresponsible fool to borrow $100,000 to get a degree in
> >> English.
> >
> > Two degrees, a BA and a MA, and in English Literature not English.
> > But you got the irresponsible fool part right.
> > I just glanced at the article, but I love this part:
> > "My debt was the result, in equal measure, of a chain of rotten
> > luck and a system that is an abject failure by design."
> > His debt was the result of a decision to pursue a degree in
> > English Literature. He looks for someone to blame.
> > He should look in a mirror.
>
>
> Either you don't have a university education or you've chosen to study a
> subject which leads directly to a career choice.
>
> I'm one of many who got a degree in English Literature and ended up as a
> very well paid lawyer. Friends of mine did history degrees before
> becoming lawyers. In fact, I think most of the lawyers I know did their
> degrees in something other than law.
future in either English Lit or History?
The Todal
Aug 22, 2018, 8:27:08 AM8/22/18
to
You fantasise about men on usenet being women, and vice versa. You
fantasise about me being a salesman (what do you reckon I sell?) and you
believe that you are a well respected political pundit with his own
website.
Did you go to journalist college? Or maybe you are entirely self-taught?
The Todal
Aug 22, 2018, 8:35:02 AM8/22/18
to
non-law graduates. Who would want to waste three years studying law,
when other subjects are more fun?
abelard
Aug 22, 2018, 8:36:40 AM8/22/18
to
On Wed, 22 Aug 2018 13:27:06 +0100, The Todal <the_...@icloud.com>
you are not on the 'subway' and i'm not arguing with you
>You fantasise about men on usenet being women, and vice versa. You
>fantasise about me being a salesman (what do you reckon I sell?) and you
>believe that you are a well respected political pundit with his own
>website.
>
>Did you go to journalist college? Or maybe you are entirely self-taught?
--
www.abelard.org
>You fantasise about men on usenet being women, and vice versa. You
>fantasise about me being a salesman (what do you reckon I sell?) and you
>believe that you are a well respected political pundit with his own
>website.
>
>Did you go to journalist college? Or maybe you are entirely self-taught?
www.abelard.org
Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Aug 22, 2018, 9:01:55 AM8/22/18
to
In article <fu53jk...@mid.individual.net>, the_...@icloud.com
Er, so that they could actually KNOW something about law instead of just
'practising' it?
'practising' it?
Rudy Canoza
Aug 22, 2018, 10:48:51 AM8/22/18
to
as there is in some other countries, and as an undergraduate degree is
nearly always a prerequisite for admission to law school here, then yes,
necessarily, lawyers in the United States have undergraduate degrees in
something other than law.
No one should borrow money to get a degree in English literature or
several other "soft" and vocationally worthless subject areas at an
expensive private university. No one should do that even if intending
to get a law degree, because three years of law school is even more
expensive than four years at a pricey private university, and it will be
more like $300,000 of debt. It was just a stupid move on the part of
the whining malcontent, and no one put a gun to his head - he did it
willingly.
Tommy
Aug 22, 2018, 10:58:33 AM8/22/18
to
Rudy Canoza <c...@philhendrie.con> wrote in news:mJefD.4318$Ac3.260
@fx45.iad:
> It was just a stupid move on the part of
> the whining malcontent, and no one put a gun to his head - he did it
> willingly.
>
>
Why do you care?
@fx45.iad:
> It was just a stupid move on the part of
> the whining malcontent, and no one put a gun to his head - he did it
> willingly.
>
>
Delvin Benêt
Aug 22, 2018, 11:01:37 AM8/22/18
to
On 8/22/2018 4:01 AM, blabberhard lied:
He has an undergraduate degree, and his major was English literature.
Stop lying.
Stop lying.
Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Aug 22, 2018, 11:21:35 AM8/22/18
to
In article <kVefD.92502$uP4....@fx18.iad>, D...@cnbc.nyc says...
> >>>>> children for this entire financial event?, by which he meant
Stop making shit up.
>
> On 8/22/2018 4:01 AM, blabberhard lied:
> > On Wed, 22 Aug 2018 11:39:28 +0100, The Todal <the_...@icloud.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 22/08/2018 00:53, Just Wondering wrote:
> >>> On 8/21/2018 11:56 AM, Rudy Canoza wrote:
> >>>> On 8/21/2018 3:30 AM, The Todal wrote:
> >>>>> Anyone who thinks that perhaps America is a better place to live or
> >>>>> that America has a better way of financing student college fees,
> >>>>> needs to read this article.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "My father described himself and my mother to Crowley as ?the poster
> On 8/22/2018 4:01 AM, blabberhard lied:
> > On Wed, 22 Aug 2018 11:39:28 +0100, The Todal <the_...@icloud.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 22/08/2018 00:53, Just Wondering wrote:
> >>> On 8/21/2018 11:56 AM, Rudy Canoza wrote:
> >>>> On 8/21/2018 3:30 AM, The Todal wrote:
> >>>>> Anyone who thinks that perhaps America is a better place to live or
> >>>>> that America has a better way of financing student college fees,
> >>>>> needs to read this article.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> children for this entire financial event?, by which he meant
> >>>>> Americans who seemed to have done everything right on paper, but in
> >>>>> doing so contributed to their own downfall".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/21/the-inescapable-weight-of-my-100000-student-debt
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I feel bad for the ordeal experienced by the English major's parents,
> >>>> but he was an irresponsible fool to borrow $100,000 to get a degree in
> >>>> English.
> >>>
> >>> Two degrees, a BA and a MA, and in English Literature not English.
> >>> But you got the irresponsible fool part right.
> >>> I just glanced at the article, but I love this part:
> >>> "My debt was the result, in equal measure, of a chain of rotten
> >>> luck and a system that is an abject failure by design."
> >>> His debt was the result of a decision to pursue a degree in
> >>> English Literature. He looks for someone to blame.
> >>> He should look in a mirror.
> >>
> >>
> >> Either you don't have a university education or you've chosen to study a
> >> subject which leads directly to a career choice.
> >>
> >> I'm one of many who got a degree in English Literature
> >
> > that's not 'a degree'
>
> He has an undergraduate degree, and his major was English literature.
> Stop lying.
Undergraduate degress in the UK don't have 'majors'.
> >>>>> doing so contributed to their own downfall".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/21/the-inescapable-weight-of-my-100000-student-debt
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I feel bad for the ordeal experienced by the English major's parents,
> >>>> but he was an irresponsible fool to borrow $100,000 to get a degree in
> >>>> English.
> >>>
> >>> Two degrees, a BA and a MA, and in English Literature not English.
> >>> But you got the irresponsible fool part right.
> >>> I just glanced at the article, but I love this part:
> >>> "My debt was the result, in equal measure, of a chain of rotten
> >>> luck and a system that is an abject failure by design."
> >>> His debt was the result of a decision to pursue a degree in
> >>> English Literature. He looks for someone to blame.
> >>> He should look in a mirror.
> >>
> >>
> >> Either you don't have a university education or you've chosen to study a
> >> subject which leads directly to a career choice.
> >>
> >> I'm one of many who got a degree in English Literature
> >
> > that's not 'a degree'
>
> He has an undergraduate degree, and his major was English literature.
> Stop lying.
Stop making shit up.
The Todal
Aug 22, 2018, 12:50:44 PM8/22/18
to
The Todal
Aug 22, 2018, 12:59:23 PM8/22/18
to
On 22/08/2018 15:48, Rudy Canoza wrote:
> On 8/22/2018 3:39 AM, The Todal wrote:
>>
>> I'm one of many who got a degree in English Literature and ended up as
>> a very well paid lawyer. Friends of mine did history degrees before
>> becoming lawyers. In fact, I think most of the lawyers I know did
>> their degrees in something other than law.
>
> <chuckle> As there is no undergraduate law degree in the United States
> as there is in some other countries, and as an undergraduate degree is
> nearly always a prerequisite for admission to law school here, then yes,
> necessarily, lawyers in the United States have undergraduate degrees in
> something other than law.
Well, okay. That's interesting to know. In the UK you can certainly
> On 8/22/2018 3:39 AM, The Todal wrote:
>>
>> I'm one of many who got a degree in English Literature and ended up as
>> a very well paid lawyer. Friends of mine did history degrees before
>> becoming lawyers. In fact, I think most of the lawyers I know did
>> their degrees in something other than law.
>
> <chuckle> As there is no undergraduate law degree in the United States
> as there is in some other countries, and as an undergraduate degree is
> nearly always a prerequisite for admission to law school here, then yes,
> necessarily, lawyers in the United States have undergraduate degrees in
> something other than law.
study for a degree in law, which you'd call an "undergraduate law
degree". Once you are awarded your degree you cease to be an undergraduate.
>
> No one should borrow money to get a degree in English literature or
> several other "soft" and vocationally worthless subject areas at an
> expensive private university.
expensive and more private than Harvard or Princetown?
If he had wanted to be a lawyer, which evidently was never his intention
nor his eventual career, you seem to be saying that his undergraduate
degree would have had to be something other than in law. What would have
been a more appropriate subject than English Literature?
> No one should do that even if intending
> to get a law degree, because three years of law school is even more
> expensive than four years at a pricey private university, and it will be
> more like $300,000 of debt. It was just a stupid move on the part of
> the whining malcontent, and no one put a gun to his head - he did it
> willingly.
suggesting that nobody should ever study English Literature in an
American university unless perhaps they want to become a professor of
English Literature?
Incubus
Aug 22, 2018, 1:12:43 PM8/22/18
to
On 2018-08-22, The Todal <the_...@icloud.com> wrote:
> On 22/08/2018 15:48, Rudy Canoza wrote:
>> On 8/22/2018 3:39 AM, The Todal wrote:
>
>>>
>>> I'm one of many who got a degree in English Literature and ended up as
>>> a very well paid lawyer. Friends of mine did history degrees before
>>> becoming lawyers. In fact, I think most of the lawyers I know did
>>> their degrees in something other than law.
>>
>> <chuckle> As there is no undergraduate law degree in the United States
>> as there is in some other countries, and as an undergraduate degree is
>> nearly always a prerequisite for admission to law school here, then yes,
>> necessarily, lawyers in the United States have undergraduate degrees in
>> something other than law.
>
> Well, okay. That's interesting to know. In the UK you can certainly
> study for a degree in law, which you'd call an "undergraduate law
> degree". Once you are awarded your degree you cease to be an undergraduate.
One solicitor I met looked down on people who read a BA prior to doing the
> On 22/08/2018 15:48, Rudy Canoza wrote:
>> On 8/22/2018 3:39 AM, The Todal wrote:
>
>>>
>>> I'm one of many who got a degree in English Literature and ended up as
>>> a very well paid lawyer. Friends of mine did history degrees before
>>> becoming lawyers. In fact, I think most of the lawyers I know did
>>> their degrees in something other than law.
>>
>> <chuckle> As there is no undergraduate law degree in the United States
>> as there is in some other countries, and as an undergraduate degree is
>> nearly always a prerequisite for admission to law school here, then yes,
>> necessarily, lawyers in the United States have undergraduate degrees in
>> something other than law.
>
> Well, okay. That's interesting to know. In the UK you can certainly
> study for a degree in law, which you'd call an "undergraduate law
> degree". Once you are awarded your degree you cease to be an undergraduate.
conversion course rather than reading for an LLB. His stance was that they
hadn't made their minds up what they wanted to do when they first attended
university and sat the CPE as an afterthought. Still, it didn't stop him from
hiring people who qualified in law by that route.
Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Aug 22, 2018, 1:17:26 PM8/22/18
to
In article <fu5ij2...@mid.individual.net>, the_...@icloud.com
says...
says...
> >>>> Either you don't have a university education or you've chosen to study a
> >>>> subject which leads directly to a career choice.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm one of many who got a degree in English Literature and ended up as a
> >>>> very well paid lawyer. Friends of mine did history degrees before
> >>>> becoming lawyers. In fact, I think most of the lawyers I know did their
> >>>> degrees in something other than law.
> >>>
> >>> Presumably you all went into the shyster business because there was no
> >>> future in either English Lit or History?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Well, yes - and because in the UK most of the law firms seem to prefer
> >> non-law graduates. Who would want to waste three years studying law,
> >> when other subjects are more fun?
> >
> > Er, so that they could actually KNOW something about law instead of just
> > 'practising' it?
> >
>
> Easy to see you aren't a lawyer and you've never studied law.
Easy to see you are/were a lawyer and you've never studied law either.
> >>>> subject which leads directly to a career choice.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm one of many who got a degree in English Literature and ended up as a
> >>>> very well paid lawyer. Friends of mine did history degrees before
> >>>> becoming lawyers. In fact, I think most of the lawyers I know did their
> >>>> degrees in something other than law.
> >>>
> >>> Presumably you all went into the shyster business because there was no
> >>> future in either English Lit or History?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Well, yes - and because in the UK most of the law firms seem to prefer
> >> non-law graduates. Who would want to waste three years studying law,
> >> when other subjects are more fun?
> >
> > Er, so that they could actually KNOW something about law instead of just
> > 'practising' it?
> >
>
> Easy to see you aren't a lawyer and you've never studied law.
The Todal
Aug 22, 2018, 1:23:17 PM8/22/18
to
made up their minds about their future career. Those who read law at
Oxford or Cambridge tend to end up as barristers rather than solicitors.
But not all.
A young friend of mine who had managed to get a good degree in law
complained to me that he was finding it very difficult to get a training
contract in a law firm. He went to lots of interviews, he sometimes made
the final ten or six, but never got offered a training contract. He was
told by several firms that they preferred non-law graduates, which was
very dispiriting. In fact he ended up abandoning law and choosing a
different career.
abelard
Aug 22, 2018, 2:11:23 PM8/22/18
to
years giving your worthless opinion on the work of your betters..
why are you also suffering from the belief that you have a
'degree' in knitting that is worth a bishop's fart?
--
www.abelard.org
Rudy Canoza
Aug 22, 2018, 2:15:45 PM8/22/18
to
On 8/22/2018 9:59 AM, The Todal wrote:
> On 22/08/2018 15:48, Rudy Canoza wrote:
>> On 8/22/2018 3:39 AM, The Todal wrote:
>
>>>
>>> I'm one of many who got a degree in English Literature and ended up
>>> as a very well paid lawyer. Friends of mine did history degrees
>>> before becoming lawyers. In fact, I think most of the lawyers I know
>>> did their degrees in something other than law.
>>
>> <chuckle> As there is no undergraduate law degree in the United
>> States as there is in some other countries, and as an undergraduate
>> degree is nearly always a prerequisite for admission to law school
>> here, then yes, necessarily, lawyers in the United States have
>> undergraduate degrees in something other than law.
>
> Well, okay. That's interesting to know. In the UK you can certainly
> study for a degree in law, which you'd call an "undergraduate law
> degree". Once you are awarded your degree you cease to be an undergraduate.
Correct. In the USA, law school is always considered a form of
> On 22/08/2018 15:48, Rudy Canoza wrote:
>> On 8/22/2018 3:39 AM, The Todal wrote:
>
>>>
>>> I'm one of many who got a degree in English Literature and ended up
>>> as a very well paid lawyer. Friends of mine did history degrees
>>> before becoming lawyers. In fact, I think most of the lawyers I know
>>> did their degrees in something other than law.
>>
>> <chuckle> As there is no undergraduate law degree in the United
>> States as there is in some other countries, and as an undergraduate
>> degree is nearly always a prerequisite for admission to law school
>> here, then yes, necessarily, lawyers in the United States have
>> undergraduate degrees in something other than law.
>
> Well, okay. That's interesting to know. In the UK you can certainly
> study for a degree in law, which you'd call an "undergraduate law
> degree". Once you are awarded your degree you cease to be an undergraduate.
"graduate school", something one does after earning (at least) a
bachelor degree. There are very few law schools in the USA that will
admit an applicant without a bachelor degree, and they're all shitty
schools. One such is Thomas M. Cooley law school in Michigan. A very
famous - well, notorious - person currently in the news obtained his law
degree there. His name is Michael Cohen, and he just pleaded guilty to
several felonies in U.S. District Court in New York.
>>
>> No one should borrow money to get a degree in English literature or
>> several other "soft" and vocationally worthless subject areas at an
>> expensive private university.
>
> Is New York university an expensive private university?
> Is it more expensive and more private than Harvard or Princetown?
private, or it is not. NYU is private.
Harvard tuition: $46,340 (annual)
https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/how-aid-works/cost-attendance
NYU tuition: $24,628 (per semester; $49,256 annual)
https://www.nyu.edu/students/student-information-and-resources/bills-payments-and-refunds/tuition-and-fee-rates/2018-2019/undergraduate-visiting/college-of-arts-and-science-2018-2019/fall-2018.html
Both are for the 2018-2019 academic year. The NYU tuition is for 12 to
18 units; I imagine most courses are 4 units each.
> If he had wanted to be a lawyer, which evidently was never his intention
> nor his eventual career, you seem to be saying that his undergraduate
> degree would have had to be something other than in law. What would have
> been a more appropriate subject than English Literature?
degree in English literature was appropriate. Given the kind of writing
he apparently wishes to do, which is not highly paid, I think getting a
degree in *anything* at NYU was a stupid move, given his family's
finances and his apparent inability to secure much in the way of
financial aid. It's possible he did receive some financial aid, but he
still ran up student debt of some $100,000, and that now is imposing
almost catastrophic hardship on his family.
One can argue all one wants, as the regressive "progressives" here do,
that university education in the USA "ought" to be free, i.e. no
out-of-pocket expense to students. But it *isn't* free, and would-be
students ought to undertake a very sober and cold analysis of the costs
and expected benefits of obtaining a university degree. It still is
believed by economists that the discounted present value of a degree is
positive, relative to not having any degree, but that is on average. It
may well be that having a degree from an expensive private university in
a field that doesn't lead to a high-paying job, and the acquisition of
which causes substantial debt to be incurred, is a losing proposition.
I still think the subject of this story would have been far better
served by getting his English lit degree from a state school in the
state in which he was legally resident when he matriculated. State
schools, called "public" schools in the USA, are usually quite
reasonably priced for residents. Some debt might still be incurred, but
far less. Many state universities charge far higher "out-of-state"
tuition to students who are not legally residents of that state; a
student's state of residence is typically that of his parents. The
out-of-state tuition approaches that of private universities. For
example, the University of California, the top tier public university in
California, charges California residents $13,900 this year, and
out-of-state students $42,900. That's tuition alone; other fees plus
estimated living expenses push the total substantially higher: about
$32,000-$35,000 for California residents, and $61,000-$64,000 for
out-of-state.
http://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/paying-for-uc/tuition-and-cost/index.html
There is a lower-tier state university system in California called the
California State University that charges substantially less tuition -
about $5,700 annual tuition for a full-time student.
>
>> No one should do that even if intending to get a law degree, because
>> three years of law school is even more expensive than four years at a
>> pricey private university, and it will be more like $300,000 of debt.
>> It was just a stupid move on the part of the whining malcontent, and
>> no one put a gun to his head - he did it willingly.
>
> Are you assuming he went on to study law, which he didn't?
undergraduate degree from NYU probably would have been a bad move.
> Are you suggesting that nobody should ever study English Literature in
> an American university unless perhaps they want to become a professor of
> English Literature?
>
family of modest income and one wishes to get a degree in a field that,
by itself, doesn't lead to highly remunerated employment, one is very
foolish to obtain that degree at a pricey private university, unless one
can also obtain financial aid that covers nearly all the expense. If
one wishes to obtain an English lit or "gender studies" bachelor degree,
and if that is one's expected terminal degree (no law or other graduate
school), then for fuck's sake, get the degree at the best public (state)
university in one's state of residence to which one can gain admission.
That's what I'm suggesting.
Rudy Canoza
Aug 22, 2018, 2:39:52 PM8/22/18
to
comment all the same. Good one!
Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Aug 22, 2018, 3:45:28 PM8/22/18
to
In article <X5ifD.238654$LE1.1...@fx35.iad>, c...@philhendrie.con
says...
Almost certainly not true? In his day, any schmuck with what you call a
high school diploma could become an articled clerk in a solicitor's
office and slowly work his way up to become a fully-fledged shyster.
Requirements for trainee solicitors (modern equivalent of articled
clerks) are a little more demanding these days.
says...
high school diploma could become an articled clerk in a solicitor's
office and slowly work his way up to become a fully-fledged shyster.
Requirements for trainee solicitors (modern equivalent of articled
clerks) are a little more demanding these days.
The Todal
Aug 22, 2018, 4:19:36 PM8/22/18
to
On 22/08/2018 20:45, Shitsack Moishe Goldberg wrote:
> In article <X5ifD.238654$LE1.1...@fx35.iad>, c...@philhendrie.con
> says...
>>
>> On 8/22/2018 10:17 AM, Shitsack Moishe Goldberg wrote:
>>> In article <fu5ij2...@mid.individual.net>, the_...@icloud.com
>>> says...
>>>>>>>> Either you don't have a university education or you've chosen to study a
>>>>>>>> subject which leads directly to a career choice.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm one of many who got a degree in English Literature and ended up as a
>>>>>>>> very well paid lawyer. Friends of mine did history degrees before
>>>>>>>> becoming lawyers. In fact, I think most of the lawyers I know did their
>>>>>>>> degrees in something other than law.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Presumably you all went into the shyster business because there was no
>>>>>>> future in either English Lit or History?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, yes - and because in the UK most of the law firms seem to prefer
>>>>>> non-law graduates. Who would want to waste three years studying law,
>>>>>> when other subjects are more fun?
>>>>>
>>>>> Er, so that they could actually KNOW something about law instead of just
>>>>> 'practising' it?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Easy to see you aren't a lawyer and you've never studied law.
>>>
>>> Easy to see you are/were a lawyer and you've never studied law either.
>>>
>>
>> Ha ha ha ha ha! That's almost certainly not true, but it's a hilarious
>> comment all the same. Good one!
Yes, amusing although incorrect.
> In article <X5ifD.238654$LE1.1...@fx35.iad>, c...@philhendrie.con
> says...
>>
>> On 8/22/2018 10:17 AM, Shitsack Moishe Goldberg wrote:
>>> In article <fu5ij2...@mid.individual.net>, the_...@icloud.com
>>> says...
>>>>>>>> Either you don't have a university education or you've chosen to study a
>>>>>>>> subject which leads directly to a career choice.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm one of many who got a degree in English Literature and ended up as a
>>>>>>>> very well paid lawyer. Friends of mine did history degrees before
>>>>>>>> becoming lawyers. In fact, I think most of the lawyers I know did their
>>>>>>>> degrees in something other than law.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Presumably you all went into the shyster business because there was no
>>>>>>> future in either English Lit or History?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, yes - and because in the UK most of the law firms seem to prefer
>>>>>> non-law graduates. Who would want to waste three years studying law,
>>>>>> when other subjects are more fun?
>>>>>
>>>>> Er, so that they could actually KNOW something about law instead of just
>>>>> 'practising' it?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Easy to see you aren't a lawyer and you've never studied law.
>>>
>>> Easy to see you are/were a lawyer and you've never studied law either.
>>>
>>
>> Ha ha ha ha ha! That's almost certainly not true, but it's a hilarious
>> comment all the same. Good one!
>
> Almost certainly not true? In his day, any schmuck with what you call a
> high school diploma could become an articled clerk in a solicitor's
> office and slowly work his way up to become a fully-fledged shyster.
> Requirements for trainee solicitors (modern equivalent of articled
> clerks) are a little more demanding these days.
>
interested, I'll explain. In my day you needed a degree, followed by a
course of study at something called the College of Law in either
Lancaster Gate, Guildford or Chester. The course of study was a tedious
process of cramming and memorising in two parts, followed by some fairly
difficult exams.
Requirements for trainee solicitors aren't very different to the
requirements for articled clerks. The law exams (formerly Part One and
Part Two, now the GDL and LPC) were sometimes taken before commencing
the traineeship, sometimes afterwards in which case the fees were often
paid by the law firm. The main problem then and now has always been too
many students chasing too few traineeships.
So yes, I studied law, and like most trainees I discovered that very
little of the law course was directly relevant to one's job and
therefore most of the knowledge was acquired from on the job training
and research as you went along.
I retired a few years ago, otherwise I wouldn't be wasting quite so much
of my time in usenet.
The Todal
Aug 22, 2018, 4:25:37 PM8/22/18
to
both. His parents encouraged him to "attend a school they couldn't
afford" and maybe like many working class folk, they knew very little
about how to choose the most appropriate course.
To quote him: "The problem, I think, runs deeper than blame. The
foundational myth of an entire generation of Americans was the false
promise that education was priceless – that its value was above or
beyond its cost. College was not a right or a privilege, but an
inevitability on the way to a meaningful adulthood. What an irony that
the decisions I made about college when I was 17 have derailed such a goal."
I wonder just how much advice you are given when you are 17 and having
to make these choices.
Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Aug 22, 2018, 5:02:17 PM8/22/18
to
In article <fu5uql...@mid.individual.net>, the_...@icloud.com
says...
says...
> >> Ha ha ha ha ha! That's almost certainly not true, but it's a hilarious
> >> comment all the same. Good one!
>
> Yes, amusing although incorrect.
>
> >
> > Almost certainly not true? In his day, any schmuck with what you call a
> > high school diploma could become an articled clerk in a solicitor's
> > office and slowly work his way up to become a fully-fledged shyster.
> > Requirements for trainee solicitors (modern equivalent of articled
> > clerks) are a little more demanding these days.
> >
>
>
> Well, your guesswork falls rather short of reality. In case anyone is
> interested, I'll explain.
Yeah, right..like anyone's going to take the word of an ex-shyster!
> >> comment all the same. Good one!
>
> Yes, amusing although incorrect.
>
> >
> > Almost certainly not true? In his day, any schmuck with what you call a
> > high school diploma could become an articled clerk in a solicitor's
> > office and slowly work his way up to become a fully-fledged shyster.
> > Requirements for trainee solicitors (modern equivalent of articled
> > clerks) are a little more demanding these days.
> >
>
>
> Well, your guesswork falls rather short of reality. In case anyone is
> interested, I'll explain.
Rudy Canoza
Aug 22, 2018, 5:26:55 PM8/22/18
to
field by "reading law" in a lawyer's office. It was an apprenticeship.
Law schools didn't become common in the United States until the 1890s.
Two Supreme Court justices, James Byrnes and Robert Jackson, both in
1941, were the last justices who became lawyers through reading law.
Byrnes didn't even have an undergraduate degree.
Rudy Canoza
Aug 22, 2018, 5:41:05 PM8/22/18
to
I attended university (undergraduate) in the early 1970s. My degree in
economics has done me no direct good professionally at all; I have
worked exclusively in information technology since 1976. I intended to
get a Ph.D. in economics and worked toward that for a couple of years
starting in 1979, but I struggled with some non-academic issues and
dropped out. Paying for university was far easier back then, and I ran
up very little debt; no more than $3,000, probably less.
On some level, I consider university education to be its own reward. It
exposes one to all manner of subjects and influences that would be very
difficult to obtain by a program of self study. You can learn a little
bit about kajillions of things today thanks to the internet, but that
wasn't possible back then. In addition, even if it's easier to learn
all those little bits today, it is better to learn under supervision of
subject matter experts.
A huge problem today in the United States, and I believe elsewhere, is
the contamination of universities with illiberal "progressive" political
correctness. This toxic spew is seriously degrading the value of a
university education. My son is in his last year of high school and
planning on starting university in a year, and I truly worry about the
rigor of the education he'll receive. I don't think libertarians and
conservatives are in any way overstating the menace that "safe spaces"
and "trigger warnings" and "critical race theory"and ridiculous blather
about "cultural appropriation" pose to meaningful education. Every one
of those quote terms is total bullshit.
Tommy
Aug 22, 2018, 6:05:56 PM8/22/18
to
Rudy Canoza <c...@philhendrie.con> wrote in news:QLkfD.269166$Yn4.170512
@fx36.iad:
Is all Rudy has to offer.
@fx36.iad:
Tommy
Aug 22, 2018, 6:06:49 PM8/22/18
to
Rudy Canoza <c...@philhendrie.con> wrote in
news:xykfD.105543$ZU.6...@fx02.iad:
The Todal
Aug 22, 2018, 7:07:42 PM8/22/18
to
means an unscrupulous, dishonest lawyer. Hahaha.
Well, I've certainly met plenty of unscrupulous dishonest lawyers, and
quite a number of very stupid ones, so I can't say I blame you for
having these preconceptions. It's not as if you've ever been a client of
mine.
Zinger
Aug 23, 2018, 2:02:34 AM8/23/18
to
>
--
Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to
the security of a free State, the right of the people
to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed
Incubus
Aug 23, 2018, 5:18:23 AM8/23/18
to
I worked at a High Street firm where a contract would be offered after working
ungodly hours as a Paralegal for the same salary as a Legal Secretary for a
number of years. I doubt it offered the same career progression as someone
fortunate enough to obtain a contract with a respected firm would enjoy.
The Todal
Aug 23, 2018, 8:13:44 AM8/23/18
to
>
> I worked at a High Street firm where a contract would be offered after working
> ungodly hours as a Paralegal for the same salary as a Legal Secretary for a
> number of years. I doubt it offered the same career progression as someone
> fortunate enough to obtain a contract with a respected firm would enjoy.
>
university degrees and have failed to get training contracts because
there are too many applicants. They work for a pittance - in today's
money, around 25k for a job in central London is a pittance - and they
hope that if they prove themselves indispensable they might be offered a
training contract. Sometimes they do get offered one, after three or
four years of being exploited.
Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Aug 23, 2018, 8:50:05 AM8/23/18
to
In article <fu68lt...@mid.individual.net>, the_...@icloud.com
says...
It's not as if I would ever go to a jew lawyer.
Without in any way wishing to resort to cultural stereotypes, a jew and
a lawyer? That's a *recipe* for dishonesty!
says...
Without in any way wishing to resort to cultural stereotypes, a jew and
a lawyer? That's a *recipe* for dishonesty!
The Todal
Aug 23, 2018, 1:11:07 PM8/23/18
to
up in jail. Do you find, generally, that people tend to ignore you and
make you feel insignificant?
Shitsack Moishe Goldberg
Aug 23, 2018, 1:34:20 PM8/23/18
to
In article <fu8859...@mid.individual.net>, the_...@icloud.com
says...
You see, Jon? You know nothing about the law in spite of having been a
jew shyster.
> Do you find, generally, that people tend to ignore you and
> make you feel insignificant?
Did you find, generally, that people tended to go elsewhere for legal
advice because you were a jew shyster?
says...
jew shyster.
> Do you find, generally, that people tend to ignore you and
> make you feel insignificant?
advice because you were a jew shyster?
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