Ark. Shooting Suspect Had Training
Milt
MARCH 25, 15:31 EST
Ark. Shooting Suspect Had Training
By PEGGY HARRIS
Associated Press Writer
JONESBORO, Ark. (AP) -- An 11-year-old boy
accused with his 13-year-old cousin of
shooting five people to death outside a school
had been trained in target shooting, a family
friend said today.
Four girls and an English teacher who shielded
a student from the attack were killed in the
ambush Tuesday outside Westside
Elementary School. Eleven others -- 10
students and a teacher -- were wounded. Six
people remained hospitalized today, one in
critical condition.
Authorities didn't release the boys' names, but The Jonesboro Sun
identified them as Mitchell Johnson, 13, and his 11-year-old cousin
Andrew
Golden. Detention hearings for the boys were scheduled for this
afternoon.
Authorities continued to search for answers to how the boys got their
weapons and why they attacked. Police said Mitchell, who had been
jilted
by a girl and made threats, and Andrew lured classmates out of school
with a false fire alarm, then mowed them down with gunfire.
Andrew's father, Dennis, is a leader of a
local
gun club, the Jonesboro Practical Pistol
Shooters. Both he and his wife are
postmasters at towns near here.
Terry Crider, a family friend and fellow
shooting club member, said today that
Dennis
Golden began taking his son hunting as a
young child and had recently begun training
him in ``practical shooting,'' a handgun
competition with moving and pop-up targets.
He said the boy was a pretty good shot,
although fairly slow.
``Dennis and Pat both have tried as hard as any parents to raise their
child right, teach him respect for life, teach him what firearms can do
and
how to handle them safely,'' Crider said. ``So that's one of the things
that
kind of alarms me.
``They're trying seriously to get their heads together and figure out
what
happened themselves,'' Crider added. He had talked to the father
earlier in
the day.
Law officers also were trying to understand. Authorities said up to 27
shots were fired. Youngsters scrambled as some of their bloodied
classmates fell and cried as they awaited emergency workers.
``There's no explanation in my opinion why an 11-year-old or
13-year-old
would do something like this,'' Craighead County Sheriff Dale Haas
said.
``It breaks my heart.''
This morning, one big wreath, two bouquets and a candle were on the
sidewalk in front of the school. Classes were canceled.
Killed were Natalie Brooks, Paige Ann Herring and Stephanie Johnson,
all
12, and Brittany R. Varner, 11. Shannon Wright, 32, died Tuesday night
after surgery for wounds to her chest and abdomen. Students said she
stepped in front of a sixth-grader as the shots rang out. The student
was
not hurt.
Mrs. Wright, the mother of a 2 1/2 -year-old son, was kind
and
loving, said Lula Belle Jones, the school's cafeteria
manager.
Asked about stepping in front of the bullet, Ms. Jones said:
``She would do that without a doubt.''
Under state law, children under age 14 are charged only in
Juvenile Court. They may be held until they are 21, but
usually
are turned out of the system by 18 because of a lack of
facilities.
Prosecutor Brent Davis said today his office would charge
the
boys with five counts of capital murder in Juvenile Court.
However, state Attorney General Winston Bryant said earlier that a
defendant must be 14 to be eligible for the death sentence.
In Little Rock, U.S. Attorney Paula Casey said her office was
looking into whether it could charge the 13-year-old with federal
firearms violations, though it was likely the 11-year-old would
be off-limits.
Students described Mitchell as a troubled boy who had recently
begun bragging about involvement with a gang and was upset
over a breakup with a girlfriend, who was among the wounded.
Students said he made numerous threats Monday.
``He told us that tomorrow you will find out if you live or die,''
seventh-grader Melinda Henson, who described herself as a
good friend of the boy, told the Sun.
``He told me yesterday that all the people who broke up with him, you
know, he's going to come to school tomorrow and shoot them,'' said
12-year-old Charles Vanoven, another seventh-grader. ``I thought he was
just kidding around.''
Charles said the 13-year-old also pulled a knife on
another student Monday, but he was afraid to report
him. Other students said the boy was specifically
targeting one of the girls wounded.
``He said he was definitely going to shoot Candace
because she had broken up with him,'' sixth-grader
Kara Tate, 11, told the Sun.
Kim Candace Porter, identified by several students
as
the former girlfriend, was listed in stable
condition at
St. Bernards Regional Medical Center.
The school has 250 students in sixth and seventh
grades. Jonesboro is a university town of 52,000
about
130 miles northeast of Little Rock.
The two boys, wearing
camouflage shirts, pants and hats, were
caught near the school with handguns and
rifles. Investigators said the boys were
running in the direction of a white van found
about a half-mile away from the school with
more guns and ammunition in it. The van was
impounded by police.
Classmate Erica Swindle, 12, said the younger
boy owned a gun and went deer hunting
often.
``He'll sit there and say, `Man, he's making
me so mad I should just take my gun and start blasting him in the butt
for
it,''' Erica said. ``You know he don't act like he's mad, but you
really don't
know about him. He's 11.''
Her mother, Lisa Bearden, said it's simply part of the Southern culture
to
hunt, but added that youths aren't learning respect for the weapons.
Arkansas has no law prohibiting minors from possessing shotguns or
rifles,
although people younger than 21 are barred from having handguns. Other
laws prohibit possessing guns on public property or for criminal
intent.
President Clinton, on a visit to Uganda, said he was ``profoundly sad
and
... disturbed'' by the shootings in his home state.
The rampage was at least the third fatal shooting in a school in the
past
five months. As in the Jonesboro case, all the dead were girls. On Dec.
1,
a boy opened fire on a student prayer circle at a high school in West
Paducah, Ky., killing three students and wounding five. Two months
earlier, two students were fatally shot in Pearl, Miss.
Two students also were wounded in Arkansas in December when a student
sniper opened fire in the southwestern Arkansas town of Stamps.
Dave Mundy
Milt:
As is usually the case with the AP, the story implies that being "trained"
makes you automatically a lethal homocidal maniac. I qualified as an expert
rifleman while in the Marine Corps. I can pick a bug off your nose at 500
yards. But I've never shot anyone in my life. At the moment, I don't even
own a firearm.
Rather than questioning why the boy's father taught them to properly handle
and care for firearms, why not ask what happened to tweak the boys'
personalities in such bizarre fashion as to drive them to open fire on their
classmates?
Look at what they're being taught in the schools and via our mass media.
O.J. Simpson proved that no matter how guilty you are, you can still go
free. Our TV shows and movies glorify violence for its own sake; warfare is
not portrayed as a heroic struggle, it's portrayed as out-of-control men
venting their aggressive natures. Our children are taught that there is no
"right and wrong." Children have no conscience.
The blame for the Jonesboro shootings lies first in the laps of the parents
of these boys: parents are first and foremost responsible. It also lies with
the government of the State of Arkansas, for adopting outcome-based
(performance-based) education, which stresses attitudes and feelings more
than it stresses reading, writing and arithmetic. And the blame lies with
each of us, for allowing our society to digress to this point of utter
anarchy.
Don Staples
The bottom feeders representing the two young assholes commented on the
news, "we will be naming the neighbor (who the boys stole the guns from)
the retailer, wholesaler, and manufacturere of the weapons" in an
undetailed suit. Fade the heat from two useless pieces of crap to the
object, not the family, not the lack of parental control, never thinking
that the two may just need to be eliminated from the human population.
There will be a world of anti's raising their shrill song of "evil guns"
and not mention the "evil white van" the two punks used, or the camo's
they wore, or the knives they carried, or the premeditated set up of the
killing field.
Two mad dogs that need to be eliminated, regardless of age.
These two need to be executed, and require their parents to carry out
the sentence.
--
Don Staples
UIN 4653335
My Ego Stroke: http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/
Mike Jones
But it's NOT their fault!! If only we would have had the 'V'-chip when
president Bill 'kiss it' Clinton had originally asked for it, this may never
have happened.
MIke.
--
"One of the things we've all been learning about on the subject of sexual
harassment is what goes on inside the mind of a victim, which sometimes
leads
that person to keep silent about it and to continue maintaining a facade of
friendship and an outward relationship so long as that secret is kept."
Sen. Al Gore, speaking in 1991, on the subject of Anita Hill.
Don Staples wrote in message <3519D7...@livingston.net>...
Ray
Milt wrote:
> Dennis Golden began taking his son hunting as a
> young child and had recently begun training
> him in ``practical shooting,'' a handgun
> competition with moving and pop-up targets.
> He said the boy was a pretty good shot,
> although fairly slow.
> ``Dennis and Pat both have tried as hard as any
> parents to raise their child right, teach him
> respect for life, teach him what firearms can do
> and how to handle them safely,'' Crider said.
> ``So that's one of the things that kind of alarms
> me. ``They're trying seriously to get their heads
> together and figure out what happened themselves,''
RR: Hmmmmm... could it be that no matter how much
you 'teach respect for life,' that children are
partly children because they are not mature enough
yet to understand and truely respect the concept?
It's a crying shame when adults mistakenly believe
their children are ready to act like adults. The Ramseys
did it with their daughter. And we know that gunners
do it with their sons.
With the Ramseys, it resulted in some disgusting
kiddie-porn video. With guns, however, we now know
it can result in mass murder.
Britain had Dunblane, and did something about it.
Now we have had Jonesboro. Will America act?
Steve Hix
In article <351a9cfb...@news.one.net>,
nos...@greycloak.access.one.net (Dr. Filth) wrote:
> "Well regulated" my ass.
You have stumbled upon the very thing that was meant by
"well-regulated".
It has nothing in the least to do with control by the state,
is has to do with judgement, self control (and to a lesser
extent) competency subordinate to them.
Bubba
On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:48:02 -0800, Ray <Ki...@Interaccess.com> wrote:
*RR: Hmmmmm... could it be that no matter how much
*you 'teach respect for life,' that children are
*partly children because they are not mature enough
*yet to understand and truely respect the concept?
* It's a crying shame when adults mistakenly believe
*their children are ready to act like adults. The Ramseys
*did it with their daughter. And we know that gunners
*do it with their sons.
* With the Ramseys, it resulted in some disgusting
*kiddie-porn video. With guns, however, we now know
*it can result in mass murder.
* Britain had Dunblane, and did something about it.
*Now we have had Jonesboro. Will America act?
Sniff, sniff, sniff. Oh Ray, when you put it that way.........
you still sound like an anti-gun radical.
"It's not about Censorship. They're trying to keep you in the dark."
David Brickner
A kneejerk reaction such as Britain did after Dunblane was not the
solution and should not have been called for there and is not called for
here. Liberal social engineeers seem to value widespread pohibitions as
an alternative to individual responsibility. A serious study of these
tragedies will do more to prevent them than all the laws that kneeJERK
politicians can pass. The human race is not perfect and with history as
our example we can see it will be thousands of years before we are. The
tragedies of 100 or 200 years ago were just not as widely reported and
grieved over. I don't have all of the answers, but am surely not as
pompous as the anti-gun social engineers who think they do. Think about
it.
Marcus Poulin
Ray wrote:
>
> Milt wrote:
> > Dennis Golden began taking his son hunting as a
> > young child and had recently begun training
> > him in ``practical shooting,'' a handgun
> > competition with moving and pop-up targets.
> > He said the boy was a pretty good shot,
> > although fairly slow.
> > ``Dennis and Pat both have tried as hard as any
> > parents to raise their child right, teach him
> > respect for life, teach him what firearms can do
> > and how to handle them safely,'' Crider said.
> > ``So that's one of the things that kind of alarms
> > me. ``They're trying seriously to get their heads
> > together and figure out what happened themselves,''
>
possess longarms NO. Your laws don't work.
Marc
Zepp Weasel
On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 02:15:39 -0800, Marcus Poulin
<vinc...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Ray wrote:
>>
>> Milt wrote:
>> > Dennis Golden began taking his son hunting as a
>> > young child and had recently begun training
>> > him in ``practical shooting,'' a handgun
>> > competition with moving and pop-up targets.
>> > He said the boy was a pretty good shot,
>> > although fairly slow.
>> > ``Dennis and Pat both have tried as hard as any
>> > parents to raise their child right, teach him
>> > respect for life, teach him what firearms can do
>> > and how to handle them safely,'' Crider said.
>> > ``So that's one of the things that kind of alarms
>> > me. ``They're trying seriously to get their heads
>> > together and figure out what happened themselves,''
>>
>> RR: Hmmmmm... could it be that no matter how much
>> you 'teach respect for life,' that children are
>> partly children because they are not mature enough
>> yet to understand and truely respect the concept?
>> It's a crying shame when adults mistakenly believe
>> their children are ready to act like adults. The Ramseys
>> did it with their daughter. And we know that gunners
>> do it with their sons.
>> With the Ramseys, it resulted in some disgusting
>> kiddie-porn video. With guns, however, we now know
>> it can result in mass murder.
>> Britain had Dunblane, and did something about it.
>> Now we have had Jonesboro. Will America act?
> Act and do what? Can kids own or possess handguns? No. Can kids own our
>possess longarms NO. Your laws don't work.
Actually, in Arkansas, minors CAN possess guns. Now, I haven't heard
if these kids owned those guns or stole 'em, but the real issue here
is the idiot's notion that guns should be used to solve social
problems. The gun loons squall all the time about using guns to
"solve" crimes such as break ins, assaults, thefts and presumably bad
driving habits. They even go so far as to accuse people who question
this of being in favor of having their wives and daughters raped.
Then they can't figure out why kids might think that guns are a handy
solution to popularity problems in the 5th grade, and kill a bunch of
people.
>
>Marc
----------------------------------------------------
"QQQQQQQUACK, QQQQQQQQQQQUACK, QQQQQQQUACK....."
-- Tom "Ding-Dong" O'Dell, in one of
his more lucid moments.
-----------------------------------------------------
Be good, servile little citizen-employees:
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
When in doubt, call a stoat!
-----------------------------------------------------
John E.R. Jasen
In article <351A08...@Interaccess.com>, Ray <Ki...@Interaccess.com> wrote:
> RR: Hmmmmm... could it be that no matter how much
> you 'teach respect for life,' that children are
> partly children because they are not mature enough
> yet to understand and truely respect the concept?
> It's a crying shame when adults mistakenly believe
> their children are ready to act like adults. The Ramseys
> did it with their daughter. And we know that gunners
> do it with their sons.
> With the Ramseys, it resulted in some disgusting
> kiddie-porn video. With guns, however, we now know
> it can result in mass murder.
> Britain had Dunblane, and did something about it.
> Now we have had Jonesboro. Will America act?
Ray;
You, and your ilk, are nothing more than a bunch of feasting ghouls
surrounding the Jonesboro morgue.
Without any wile or whim of thought, you drag these bodies around in your
campaign, screaming like the town idiot "If only we had Gun Control!".
I've had enough. Enough of you and your kinds "for the children" corpse
prostitution and political necrophilia.
I demand to know where you and the rest of your vultures are, Ray, when
the children are in the classroom.
I demand to know where you are, when the children are home, watching TV.
I demand to know what you are doing, when the children are in front of
you, begging to be parented.
--
"Frankly, Agent Mulder, alien abduction is the more believable option."
Agent Skinner, X-Files, 3/09/98 [paraphrase]
-- John E. Jasen // DNRC Ambassador to Earth \\ jja...@umbc.edu --
-- My views are those of the DNRC only. Prepare to be domesticated --
cl...@xld.com
Hi Marc!
Greetings from:
Clark, Still free in Round Rock Texas USA
http://xld.com/ Addressing Social and Political Issues
I concur with your assessment that more gun control laws just won't work.
After all, the kids had no regard for existing laws.
Big government has created a society where parents are no longer able to teach
children morality. Government has fostered this responsibility over to the
schools, who've failed miserably.
The parents of the shooter probably tried, but with the conflicts that abound,
the inevitable finally happened. It'll probably happen again and again.
There's no quick cure. Absolute confiscation of every long gun and handgun in
the U.S. won't stop it.
The problem lies with what we've taught our children to become, or rather,
what we haven't taught them to become.
Regards,
In article <351A2A...@ix.netcom.com>,
Marcus Poulin <vinc...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> Ray wrote:
> >
> > Milt wrote:
> > > Dennis Golden began taking his son hunting as a
> > > young child and had recently begun training
> > > him in ``practical shooting,'' a handgun
> > > competition with moving and pop-up targets.
> > > He said the boy was a pretty good shot,
> > > although fairly slow.
> > > ``Dennis and Pat both have tried as hard as any
> > > parents to raise their child right, teach him
> > > respect for life, teach him what firearms can do
> > > and how to handle them safely,'' Crider said.
> > > ``So that's one of the things that kind of alarms
> > > me. ``They're trying seriously to get their heads
> > > together and figure out what happened themselves,''
> >
> > RR: Hmmmmm... could it be that no matter how much
> > you 'teach respect for life,' that children are
> > partly children because they are not mature enough
> > yet to understand and truely respect the concept?
> > It's a crying shame when adults mistakenly believe
> > their children are ready to act like adults. The Ramseys
> > did it with their daughter. And we know that gunners
> > do it with their sons.
> > With the Ramseys, it resulted in some disgusting
> > kiddie-porn video. With guns, however, we now know
> > it can result in mass murder.
> > Britain had Dunblane, and did something about it.
> > Now we have had Jonesboro. Will America act?
> Act and do what? Can kids own or possess handguns? No. Can kids own our
> possess longarms NO. Your laws don't work.
>
> Marc
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Don Staples
Ray wrote:
.
> Britain had Dunblane, and did something about it.
> Now we have had Jonesboro. Will America act?
Act how? Let a very small percentage of the population control the
lives and laws of the rest of us? Execute the little shits, require the
parents to carry out the sentence. End that little number.
Don Staples
Zepp Weasel wrote:
>
>
> Then they can't figure out why kids might think that guns are a handy
> solution to popularity problems in the 5th grade, and kill a bunch of
> people.--
Yeh, we figured it out all right, you liberal assholes say let it all
happen, they are not responsible, show em all that violence on TV and in
the movies that is covered by the first ammendment. Let them do their
thing, one parent families, no control of the youth. A 13 year old
dating?
Same anti gun troll bullshit.
Brian Carey
Zepp Weasel didn't get enough sleep before he wrote:
> Actually, in Arkansas, minors CAN possess guns. Now, I haven't heard
> if these kids owned those guns or stole 'em, but the real issue here
> is the idiot's notion that guns should be used to solve social
> problems. The gun loons squall all the time about using guns to
> "solve" crimes such as break ins, assaults, thefts and presumably bad
> driving habits.
Uh, yeah. The gun-rights crowd has always looked favorably towards the
concept of using guns to solve social problems such as bad driving
habits.
Go crawl back under your shell, Zepp, before you make an even bigger
fool out of yourself.
--
Brian Carey --> car...@mindspring.com
Religious Freedom Home Page:
http://www.mindspring.com/~careyb/rframe.html
----------------------------------------------------------------
| Usenet Wisdom |
----------------------------------------------------------------
"What is 'a procedure that is done at the begining of a
pregnancy'? I always thought that was called 'fucking'. Did
Ohio try to ban that?"
- Zepp, with some enlightenment regarding human physiology
"To deny Paul was sexist because there is a book in the Bible
named after Deborah is silly indeed."
- Gail Weasel, apparently forgetting that there is no book
in the Bible named after Deborah
"Aren't people who wear linens and eat pork just as perverted
as gays? [The Apostle] Paul thought so..."
- Milt Shook, theologian wannabe, making false statements
about the Apostle Paul
Peter H. Proctor
A half-serious modest proposal. Ever see the British movie "If",
about a group of Brit students who shoot up their school ? Just showed up on
cable here in the US a month or so ago after years of absence. Maybe this
caused the Arkansas incident.
Dr. P
Roger Shouse
In article <pproctor.17...@neosoft.com> ppro...@neosoft.com (Peter H. Proctor) writes:
>From: ppro...@neosoft.com (Peter H. Proctor)
>Subject: Brit Movie "IF" may have suggested Arkasas shooting
>Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:43:50 UNDEFINED
>Dr. P
I don't know. That's a pretty obscure film, one that only a few exceptional
11-13 year olds would watch all the way through. If you're looking for a
"model film," I'll bet there are other more likely candidates!
RS
Dan Day
On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:48:02 -0800, Ray <Ki...@Interaccess.com> wrote:
>Now we have had Jonesboro. Will America act?
Robert "I don't want to control guns, honest" Ray makes a
clear plea for gun control.
Tell, us, Mr. Ray, just what sort of "action" would you
think appropriate? Be specific, please.
Yes, Britain "did something" after Dunblane. That "something"
was vastly expensive, and utterly futile. It will do nothing
to stop the next nutcase from committing whatever massacre
he has his heart set upon.
--
"Of course truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction,
after all, has to make sense." -- Mark Twain
Steve Fischer
In article <351A08...@Interaccess.com> Ki...@Interaccess.com writes:
>Milt wrote:
>> Dennis Golden began taking his son hunting as a
>> young child and had recently begun training
>> him in ``practical shooting,'' a handgun
>> competition with moving and pop-up targets.
>> He said the boy was a pretty good shot,
>> although fairly slow.
>> ``Dennis and Pat both have tried as hard as any
>> parents to raise their child right, teach him
>> respect for life, teach him what firearms can do
>> and how to handle them safely,'' Crider said.
>> ``So that's one of the things that kind of alarms
>> me. ``They're trying seriously to get their heads
>> together and figure out what happened themselves,''
>
>you 'teach respect for life,' that children are
>partly children because they are not mature enough
>yet to understand and truely respect the concept?
> It's a crying shame when adults mistakenly believe
>their children are ready to act like adults. The Ramseys
>did it with their daughter. And we know that gunners
>do it with their sons.
There is always the possibility that the children were NOT
as innocent as they might seem. Other kids have testified that
the at least one of the two killers had some involvement with
youth gangs and had threatened another kid just the day before
with a knife. I'm betting the parents didn;t know about any of
this. The kids probably kept their secret lives hidden. If
they were able to do this, then they were able to form the intent
necessary to be held fully responsible for their own actions.
Maybe they SHOULD be charged as adults?
Steve
--
/Steve D. Fischer/Atlanta, Georgia/str...@netcom.com/
{fullname}
With all the out cry and knee-jerking going on about this Arkansas tragedy,
has anyone thought for a minute about what our schools could or would be
like if this out of control government of ours hadn't banned God from the
classroom? I'm sure the socialist engineers are gearing up for yet another
ban of something here... wonder what that could be?
Drummerboy
trap...@hotmail.com
Dan Day
On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 00:11:29 GMT, nos...@greycloak.access.one.net (Dr. Filth)
wrote:
>"Well regulated" my ass.
I am glad to hear that your ass is well regulated. However,
health information belongs in another newsgroup.
Kyle Wilson
In article <351A08...@Interaccess.com>, Ray <Ki...@Interaccess.com> wrote:
>their children are ready to act like adults. The Ramseys
>did it with their daughter. And we know that gunners
>do it with their sons.
Well, I don't know about you and your friends, but most of the rest of
us managed to do a perfectly good job of acting like children without
killing anyone. It's not because we couldn't. It would be pretty
easy to slip rat poison into the stew at the school cafeteria, or
stick a knife into the guy sitting in front of you, or borrow the
parents' car and go run down toddlers. Most of us weren't kept in
padded cells until we turned twenty-one.
These children in Arkansas aren't good kids who've been trusted with
too much responsibility. They didn't overindulge in alcohol or stay
out after curfew. They murdered people. It's hard to reach even age
eleven without learning, at some point, that killing people is wrong,
and learning the likely consequences. But as long as you and your
knee-jerk prohibitionist friends insist on treating the weapon rather
than the killer, the bodies will keep piling higher.
--
Kyle Wilson
ky...@cs.unc.edu http://www.cs.unc.edu/~kyle/ksw.html
W. E. Woods
In article <35199D8E...@fbtc.net>,
Dave Mundy <peg...@fbtc.net> wrote:
>Milt:
>As is usually the case with the AP, the story implies that being "trained"
>makes you automatically a lethal homocidal maniac. I qualified as an expert
>rifleman while in the Marine Corps. I can pick a bug off your nose at 500
>yards. But I've never shot anyone in my life. At the moment, I don't even
>own a firearm.
>Rather than questioning why the boy's father taught them to properly handle
>and care for firearms, why not ask what happened to tweak the boys'
>personalities in such bizarre fashion as to drive them to open fire on their
>classmates?
>Look at what they're being taught in the schools and via our mass media.
>O.J. Simpson proved that no matter how guilty you are, you can still go
>free. Our TV shows and movies glorify violence for its own sake; warfare is
>not portrayed as a heroic struggle, it's portrayed as out-of-control men
>venting their aggressive natures. Our children are taught that there is no
>"right and wrong." Children have no conscience.
>The blame for the Jonesboro shootings lies first in the laps of the parents
>of these boys: parents are first and foremost responsible. It also lies with
>the government of the State of Arkansas, for adopting outcome-based
>(performance-based) education, which stresses attitudes and feelings more
>than it stresses reading, writing and arithmetic. And the blame lies with
>each of us, for allowing our society to digress to this point of utter
>anarchy.
And where are the examples of good character that young
people should be able to look up to? Athletes doing drugs,
kicking fans, spitting on the umpire, choking the coach,
beating wives and girlfriends while getting paid millions
and being glorified right and left. Movie "stars" behaving
worse off-screen than they do on, getting paid millions
and being glorified for it. Politicians publically lying and
screwing their constituants to death, making millions and
being glorified for it. Musicians behaving worse than the
movie stars, making millions and being glorified for it.
TV shows and movies that glorify being an asshole with
no character. Parents that give their kids free rein. A
state that says they have to. Patriots, people who believe
in Liberty and Freedom, people of character and beleif all
being vilified for what they are. Media bombarding them
with the idea that nothing really matters except now.
Get yours no matter what.
Time to shake up the system a bit, folks. Scare the crap
out of them. Get involved. Vote. Write. Call. Be a gadfly
on the body politic. Kick till they bleed from the ears.
______________________________________
| It is dangerous to be right when the |
| government is wrong | It is error alone
|______________________________________| which needs the support
of government. Truth can
stand by itself.
"I have sworn on the altar of God, eternal
hostility against every form of tyranny
over the mind of man."
Thomas Jefferson
Eric Williams
In a previous post, Roger Shouse (rc...@psu.edu) wrote:
: In article <pproctor.17...@neosoft.com> ppro...@neosoft.com (Peter H. Proctor) writes:
: >From: ppro...@neosoft.com (Peter H. Proctor)
: >Subject: Brit Movie "IF" may have suggested Arkasas shooting
: >Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:43:50 UNDEFINED
: > A half-serious modest proposal. Ever see the British movie "If",
: >about a group of Brit students who shoot up their school ? Just showed up on
: >cable here in the US a month or so ago after years of absence. Maybe this
: >caused the Arkansas incident.
: I don't know. That's a pretty obscure film, one that only a few exceptional
: 11-13 year olds would watch all the way through. If you're looking for a
: "model film," I'll bet there are other more likely candidates!
How about "The Basketball Diaries," a 1995 movie in which the main
character dreams about breaking down a classroom door and methodically
shooting five classmates while other students cheer.
--
Ask not what your country can make other people do for you.
Peter H. Proctor
In article <rcs8.809...@psu.edu> rc...@psu.edu (Roger Shouse) writes:
>From: rc...@psu.edu (Roger Shouse)
>Subject: Re: Brit Movie "IF" may have suggested Arkasas shooting
>Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:44:27 UNDEFINED
>In article <pproctor.17...@neosoft.com> ppro...@neosoft.com (Peter H.
>Proctor) writes:
>>From: ppro...@neosoft.com (Peter H. Proctor)
>>Subject: Brit Movie "IF" may have suggested Arkasas shooting
>>Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:43:50 UNDEFINED
>> A half-serious modest proposal. Ever see the British movie "If",
>>about a group of Brit students who shoot up their school ? Just showed up on
>>cable here in the US a month or so ago after years of absence. Maybe this
>>caused the Arkansas incident.
>>Dr. P
>I don't know. That's a pretty obscure film, one that only a few exceptional
>11-13 year olds would watch all the way through. If you're looking for a
>"model film," I'll bet there are other more likely candidates!
"If" is a pretty obscure movie, reflecting a lot of adolescent
fantasies. In fact, I hadn't seen it for years until it showed up about a
month ago on one of the free premium movie channels. Ran repeatedly for a
week or so. Is this just a coincidence or not ? Did the Arkansas perps
have cable ?
There is a scene in the movie where the students break into a
forgotten cache of weapons. In another surreal scene, from ambush they gun
down people coming of a door of the school. There may even have been a
fire-alarm involved. Hmmm. maybe the video store has a copy <G>.
Dr. P
volt...@geocities.com
On 26 Mar 1998 09:53:53 -0500, jja...@umbc.edu (John "E.R." Jasen)
wrote:
>In article <351A08...@Interaccess.com>, Ray <Ki...@Interaccess.com> wrote:
>> RR: Hmmmmm... could it be that no matter how much
>> you 'teach respect for life,' that children are
>> partly children because they are not mature enough
>> yet to understand and truely respect the concept?
>> It's a crying shame when adults mistakenly believe
>> their children are ready to act like adults. The Ramseys
>> did it with their daughter. And we know that gunners
>> do it with their sons.
>> With the Ramseys, it resulted in some disgusting
>> kiddie-porn video. With guns, however, we now know
>> it can result in mass murder.
>> Britain had Dunblane, and did something about it.
>> Now we have had Jonesboro. Will America act?
>
>Ray;
>
>You, and your ilk, are nothing more than a bunch of feasting ghouls
>surrounding the Jonesboro morgue.
>
>Without any wile or whim of thought, you drag these bodies around in your
>campaign, screaming like the town idiot "If only we had Gun Control!".
>
>I've had enough. Enough of you and your kinds "for the children" corpse
>prostitution and political necrophilia.
>
>I demand to know where you and the rest of your vultures are, Ray, when
>the children are in the classroom.
>
>I demand to know where you are, when the children are home, watching TV.
>
>I demand to know what you are doing, when the children are in front of
>you, begging to be parented.
I demand to know why you are not explaining why a boy trained in a
school sponsored shooting program showed what he learned on his
classmates.
Jim
PERRY MASON
In article <351A86...@livingston.net>, dsta...@livingston.net, Don
Staples, says...
>
>Zepp Weasel wrote:
>>
>
>>
>> Then they can't figure out why kids might think that guns are a handy
>> solution to popularity problems in the 5th grade, and kill a bunch of
>> people.--
>
>
>Yeh, we figured it out all right, you liberal assholes say let it all
>happen, they are not responsible, show em all that violence on TV and in
>the movies that is covered by the first ammendment. Let them do their
>thing, one parent families, no control of the youth. A 13 year old
>dating?
>
>Same anti gun troll bullshit.
Yeah, let's blame liberals for the latest mass murder in the Bible Belt!.
Why don't these anti-gun fanatics ban stairs, kitchen knives and
automobiles as well a guns? Everyone know stairs, kitchen knives and cars
kill too.
Wait a minute! How is a sniper going to ambush an entire class and take out
all those kids and a teacher with a stairway, a kitchen knife or an
automobile?
Oh well, maybe this isn't the time to bring up that argument.
Peter H. Proctor
In article <wd6cmuE...@netcom.com> wd6...@netcom.com (Eric Williams) writes:
>From: wd6...@netcom.com (Eric Williams)
>Subject: Re: Brit Movie "IF" may have suggested Arkasas shooting
>In a previous post, Roger Shouse (rc...@psu.edu) wrote:
>: In article <pproctor.17...@neosoft.com> ppro...@neosoft.com (Peter H.
>Proctor) writes:
>: >From: ppro...@neosoft.com (Peter H. Proctor)
>: >Subject: Brit Movie "IF" may have suggested Arkasas shooting
>: >Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:43:50 UNDEFINED
>: > A half-serious modest proposal. Ever see the British movie "If",
>: >about a group of Brit students who shoot up their school ? Just showed up on
>: >cable here in the US a month or so ago after years of absence. Maybe this
>: >caused the Arkansas incident.
>: I don't know. That's a pretty obscure film, one that only a few exceptional
>: 11-13 year olds would watch all the way through. If you're looking for a
>: "model film," I'll bet there are other more likely candidates!
>How about "The Basketball Diaries," a 1995 movie in which the main
>character dreams about breaking down a classroom door and methodically
>shooting five classmates while other students cheer.
That's the one the perp claims inspired the Pearl Mississippi shooting, if
memory serves <G>.
Dr. P
PERRY MASON
In article <6fe52o$1...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, dan...@ix.netcom.com,
Dan Z, says...
>
>In <351a6281....@news.snowcrest.net>
>zepphol...@snowcrest.net (Zepp Weasel) writes:
...SNIP...
>>
>>Then they can't figure out why kids might think that guns are a handy
>>solution to popularity problems in the 5th grade, and kill a bunch of
>>people.
>
>
>Can you honestly say that, if guns were totally unavailable, these kids
>would not have found some other way to accomplish their ends? If not,
>how can you blame their tools, rather than their motives? Perhaps it
>was their upbringing, where they apparently were not taught that you
>can't have everything you want, and therefore went off the deep end the
>first time they were rejected.
>
>
Why don't these anti-gun fanatics ban stairs, kitchen knives and
automobiles as well a guns? Everyone know stairs, kitchen knives and cars
kill too.
Wait a minute! How is a sniper going to ambush an entire class and take out
all those kids and a teacher with a stairway, a kitchen knife or an
automobile?
Oh well, maybe this isn't the time to bring up that argument.
--
"Capital punishment is our society's recognition of the
sanctity of human life." --Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-UT)
TRUTH & JUSTICE
In article <pproctor.17...@neosoft.com>, ppro...@neosoft.com, Peter
H. Proctor, says...
>
> A half-serious modest proposal. Ever see the British movie "If",
>about a group of Brit students who shoot up their school ? Just showed up
on
>cable here in the US a month or so ago after years of absence. Maybe this
>caused the Arkansas incident.
>
Yeah let's blame a movie, or use the Twinkie defense!
Why don't these liberal movie makers and anti-gun fanatics ban stairs,
Bob K
On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 18:24:26 GMT, "{fullname}" <{uname}@inreach.com>
wrote:
Right. No doubt the Arkansas tragedy would have never happened if
they just said a prayer every morning before school.... I wonder if
the 2 shooters missed church last Sunday- perhaps that's the cause.
Bob K (remove NOSPAM to reply by email)
Bob K
> A half-serious modest proposal. Ever see the British movie "If",
>about a group of Brit students who shoot up their school ? Just showed up on
>cable here in the US a month or so ago after years of absence. Maybe this
>caused the Arkansas incident.
I think you'd have a hard time showing how any movie 'caused' the
Arkansas incident. The first problem would be proving that it was
only shown in Arkansas since there haven't been any similar incidents
in other states recently.
PLMerite
volt...@geocities.com wrote in message
<6fejls$t...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
>On 26 Mar 1998 09:53:53 -0500, jja...@umbc.edu (John "E.R." Jasen)
>wrote:
>
>
>I demand to know why you are not explaining why a boy trained in a
>school sponsored shooting program showed what he learned on his
>classmates.
>
> Jim
Of course, the school-sponsored shooting program obviously instructed the
boys in how to ambush their classmates. They must have forgotten to teach
them to wear their tinfoil helmets to shield them from the evil mind rays
known to be emitted by weapons.
Instead of providing instruction in the safe handling and use of firearms,
perhaps the children should be told to piss their pants like a good liberal
whenever they see a gun...
Regards, PLMerite
Michael Richmann
Pe...@mason.COM (PERRY MASON) wrote:
>In article <6fe52o$1...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, dan...@ix.netcom.com,
>Dan Z, says...
>>
>>In <351a6281....@news.snowcrest.net>
>>zepphol...@snowcrest.net (Zepp Weasel) writes:
>
>...SNIP...
>
>>>
>>>Then they can't figure out why kids might think that guns are a handy
>>>solution to popularity problems in the 5th grade, and kill a bunch of
>>>people.
>>
>>
>>Can you honestly say that, if guns were totally unavailable, these kids
>>would not have found some other way to accomplish their ends? If not,
>>how can you blame their tools, rather than their motives? Perhaps it
>>was their upbringing, where they apparently were not taught that you
>>can't have everything you want, and therefore went off the deep end the
>>first time they were rejected.
>>
>>
>
>
>kill too.
>
>Wait a minute! How is a sniper going to ambush an entire class and take out
>all those kids and a teacher with a stairway, a kitchen knife or an
>automobile?
Considering they killed 5 with guns, what might the count have been
if they crashed your posited "car" through a classroom window?
What would it have been had they used gasoline or pipe bombs?
>
>Oh well, maybe this isn't the time to bring up that argument.
Unfortunately, you've already stuck your foot in it...
--
Mike
My opinions, not Argonne's...
Bubba
On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:11:40 GMT, volt...@geocities.com wrote:
*
*I demand to know why you are not explaining why a boy trained in a
*school sponsored shooting program showed what he learned on his
*classmates.
*
* Jim
I was wondering when this halfwitted moron would show up.
"It's not about Censorship. They're trying to keep you in the dark."
Zepp Weasel
On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:01:25 GMT, bkm...@bigfoot.NOSPAMcom (Bob K)
wrote:
I don't believe it was caused by a movie, but two other states have
had instances of kids shooting at classmates. All southern, and all
by kids small for their age.
=====================================================================
Kicking a cat is cruel.
Kicking a child is appalling.
Kicking a baby is hideous.
Kicking a right-winger is exercise.
Be a good little citizen/employee, and pay your taxes so
the rich dont' have to.
Novus Ordo Seclorum Volpus de Marina
=====================================================================
ma...@pumatech.com
TRUTH & JUSTICE <TR...@JUSTICE.COM> wrote:
> In article <pproctor.17...@neosoft.com>, ppro...@neosoft.com, Peter
> H. Proctor, says...
> >
> > A half-serious modest proposal. Ever see the British movie "If",
> >about a group of Brit students who shoot up their school ? Just showed up
> on
> >cable here in the US a month or so ago after years of absence. Maybe this
> >caused the Arkansas incident.
> >
>
> Yeah let's blame a movie, or use the Twinkie defense!
>
> Why don't these liberal movie makers and anti-gun fanatics ban stairs,
> kitchen knives and automobiles as well a guns? Everyone know stairs,
> kitchen knives and cars kill too.
>
> Wait a minute! How is a sniper going to ambush an entire class and take out
> all those kids and a teacher with a stairway, a kitchen knife or an
> automobile?
>
> Oh well, maybe this isn't the time to bring up that argument.
What argument?? You haven't made one. The kids weren't "snipers";
they were "murderers". The tool is incidental. While I certainly
can't figure out how anyone would wield a 'stairway', the kids
most certainly *could* kill 5 people (or more) with knives, or
thier stolen automobile - not to mention gasoline, chemicals,
ANFO, or any of a whole host of other means.
If you think the lack of a gun will stop a motivated killer,
you are completly deluded. Stop watching TV and start studying
the real world.
-Matt
Christopher Morton
On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:48:02 -0800, Ray <Ki...@Interaccess.com> wrote:
> Britain had Dunblane, and did something about it.
>Now we have had Jonesboro. Will America act?
"Act"? Act how? To ban hunting rifles?
Go ahead.
We haven't had a civil war in years.
Of course you can't possibly win this one, and this time it'll be a
revolt AGAINST would be slavemasters.
Go ahead ray. Try to take my guns. I'm waiting.
---
"Paul Begala: Goebbels without the limp." - C. Morton
Check out http://extra.newsguy.com/~cmorton
Dan Day
On 26 Mar 1998 22:03:57 GMT, pe...@mason.COM (PERRY MASON) wrote:
>Wait a minute! How is a sniper going to ambush an entire class and take out
>all those kids and a teacher with a stairway, a kitchen knife or an
>automobile?
With an automobile? No problem. Pull the fire alarm, as they did,
or wait until school lets out, then drive fast through crowds in
the parking lot. Turn around and go after more, if you didn't
kill enough the first pass.
Gasoline works really well, too.
>Oh well, maybe this isn't the time to bring up that argument.
Yes, indeed, I advise you against bringing up stupid, straw man
arguments.
Christopher Morton
>With all the out cry and knee-jerking going on about this Arkansas tragedy,
>has anyone thought for a minute about what our schools could or would be
>like if this out of control government of ours hadn't banned God from the
>classroom? I'm sure the socialist engineers are gearing up for yet another
>ban of something here... wonder what that could be?
What are the classrooms in Afghanistan and the Bekaa valley like?
rwalther
volt...@geocities.com wrote:
>
> On 26 Mar 1998 09:53:53 -0500, jja...@umbc.edu (John "E.R." Jasen)
> wrote:
>
> >> RR: Hmmmmm... could it be that no matter how much
> >> you 'teach respect for life,' that children are
> >> partly children because they are not mature enough
> >> yet to understand and truely respect the concept?
> >> It's a crying shame when adults mistakenly believe
> >> their children are ready to act like adults. The Ramseys
> >> did it with their daughter. And we know that gunners
> >> do it with their sons.
> >> With the Ramseys, it resulted in some disgusting
> >> kiddie-porn video. With guns, however, we now know
> >> it can result in mass murder.
> >> Now we have had Jonesboro. Will America act?
> >
> >
> >You, and your ilk, are nothing more than a bunch of feasting ghouls
> >surrounding the Jonesboro morgue.
> >
> >Without any wile or whim of thought, you drag these bodies around in your
> >campaign, screaming like the town idiot "If only we had Gun Control!".
> >
> >I've had enough. Enough of you and your kinds "for the children" corpse
> >prostitution and political necrophilia.
> >
> >I demand to know where you and the rest of your vultures are, Ray, when
> >the children are in the classroom.
> >
> >I demand to know where you are, when the children are home, watching TV.
> >
> >I demand to know what you are doing, when the children are in front of
> >you, begging to be parented.
>
school sponsored? are you trolling again jimbozo, or just manufacturing
your own facts again?
>
> Jim
Paul Stevens
Bob K wrote:
>
> On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 18:24:26 GMT, "{fullname}" <{uname}@inreach.com>
> wrote:
>
> >With all the out cry and knee-jerking going on about this Arkansas tragedy,
> >has anyone thought for a minute about what our schools could or would be
> >like if this out of control government of ours hadn't banned God from the
> >classroom? I'm sure the socialist engineers are gearing up for yet another
> >ban of something here... wonder what that could be?
>
> they just said a prayer every morning before school.... I wonder if
> the 2 shooters missed church last Sunday- perhaps that's the cause.
>
The 13 year old was a regular church attendee until a few weeks ago,
when he quit going altogether. He had been the perfect little
gentleman, but he cut all his hair off, started wearing gang colors,
and began telling people he was a gang member.
I doubt school prayer would have prevented the shooting, but this
kid's change in his attitude toward church was one of many warning
signs that he had a problem. If anything could have prevented this,
it would have been someone deciding to pay attention to warning signs
and send the kid to a counselor (he needed serious help from someone).
P.S.
Gail Weasel
John E.R. Jasen wrote:
>
>
> I demand to know where you and the rest of your vultures are, Ray, when
> the children are in the classroom.
>
> I demand to know where you are, when the children are home, watching TV.
>
> I demand to know what you are doing, when the children are in front of
> you, begging to be parented.
>
Wow, that's a lot of demands. Take a couple of hostages
and you might even get to add two large pizzas to the
rest of your demands.
Gail
PLMerite
volt...@geocities.com wrote in message
<6ff7rc$2...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
>On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 18:01:14 -0500, "PLMerite"
><Stoc...@smokebombhill.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>volt...@geocities.com wrote in message
>><6fejls$t...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
>>>On 26 Mar 1998 09:53:53 -0500, jja...@umbc.edu (John "E.R." Jasen)
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>I demand to know why you are not explaining why a boy trained in a
>>>school sponsored shooting program showed what he learned on his
>>>classmates.
>>>
>>> Jim
>>
>>
>>Of course, the school-sponsored shooting program obviously instructed the
>>boys in how to ambush their classmates. They must have forgotten to teach
>>them to wear their tinfoil helmets to shield them from the evil mind rays
>>known to be emitted by weapons.
>
>>Instead of providing instruction in the safe handling and use of firearms,
>>perhaps the children should be told to piss their pants like a good
liberal
>>whenever they see a gun...
>
>Do you think these two future NRA lifetime members could have pissed
>five people to death, PL?
>
> Jim
>
Beneath comment, from someone beneath contempt for reveling (and seeking to
profit) in the deaths of others. How many other HCI drones climaxed when
they heard about four elementary school children killed, do you think?
>
>Ecrasons l'infame
A flaming *what* ?
PLMerite
Join The War On Left Wing Ignorance:
http://www.nra.org/
http://www.webspan.net/~hhr/myths.html
http://www.shadeslanding.com/firearms/hci_nazi.html
http://www.jpfo.org/
>===========================================================================
===
>Almost as much *excitement* as Waco!!!
> --Suggested New HCI Slogan
>===========================================================================
===
pic...@swbell.net
In article <6fejls$t...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
volt...@geocities.com wrote:
>
> On 26 Mar 1998 09:53:53 -0500, jja...@umbc.edu (John "E.R." Jasen)
> wrote:
>
wrote:
> >I demand to know what you are doing, when the children are in front of
> >you, begging to be parented.
>
> school sponsored shooting program showed what he learned on his
> classmates.
>
> Jim
Training does not necessitate responsibility. In the end the parents are
responsible, and I'm not accusing. With the liberal laws enacted these
days, a parent can be arrested for punishing a child that does wrong. I
am not saying what I would do if these were my children, and I had failed
society so badly. Again I say it is the parents responsibility. Death is
a natural part of life. Both of my children have experienced it with the
loss of grandparents. They understand the finality of death, if not the
full concept. From exp. they also know the destruction guns can cause.
My family having been a repeated vitim of crime, We will not give up our
only means of protection.
Bill
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
pic...@swbell.net
In article <u3xS.114$m57.6...@news.inreach.com>,
"{fullname}" <{uname}@inreach.com> wrote:
>
> With all the out cry and knee-jerking going on about this Arkansas tragedy,
> has anyone thought for a minute about what our schools could or would be
> like if this out of control government of ours hadn't banned God from the
> classroom? I'm sure the socialist engineers are gearing up for yet another
> ban of something here... wonder what that could be?
>
> trap...@hotmail.com
>
Well DB. it is not politically correct. Liberal attitudes that removed "God"
from schools almost 30yrs ago are responsible. Now we have to arm ourselves
against the 1st and 2nd generation results of this philosophy. Prayer in the
schools was not the total answer to social problems we deal with today. It
is the attitude that removed the social values provided with prayer and
atleast a quick mentioning of the 10 commandments. Had they been called good
rules to live by, or something more P.C. they may have survived. But since
god handed them down to Moses, they are not P.C. Things like Dont kill your
neighbor, dont steal, dont falsely accuse others, do what your parents tell
you, dont sleep with your neighbors spouse, dont desire to own your neighbors
possesions all seem pretty basic to me. But I was born in the early 60's and
said a prayer each day before school started. I have never killed anyone,
robbed anyone, raped or burgled, I dont deal drugs or steal. I guess I'm not
"Politically correct". I try to teach these to my kids, even tho school
doesn't reinforce my teachings. Hopefully so do my neighbors. I would be
heartbroken, having to shoot one of my neighbors children, to protect my
family.
pic...@swbell.net
In article <351A85...@livingston.net>,
dsta...@livingston.net wrote:
>
> Ray wrote:
> .
> > Britain had Dunblane, and did something about it.
> > Now we have had Jonesboro. Will America act?
>
> lives and laws of the rest of us? Execute the little shits, require the
> parents to carry out the sentence. End that little number.
> --
> Don Staples
> UIN 4653335
>
> My Ego Stroke: http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/
>
Don:
You being on my side disturbs me. Your pontification on things I would deal
with myself, had I failed society so miserably, really bothers me. "Required"
sounds to much like govt. control. I love both my children more than life
itself. But if either one of them murders in cold blood, or rapes a woman, it
will be my responsibility. And I dont need you cussing or preaching to the
opposition liberals about what I should do. It won't win them over, and all
it does is enrage more opposition to what is right.
pic...@swbell.net
In article <stratosE...@netcom.com>,
str...@netcom.com (Steve Fischer) wrote:
>
> In article <351A08...@Interaccess.com> Ki...@Interaccess.com writes:
> >Milt wrote:
<snip>
> It's a crying shame when adults mistakenly believe
> >their children are ready to act like adults. The Ramseys
> >did it with their daughter. And we know that gunners
> >do it with their sons.
>
> as innocent as they might seem. Other kids have testified that
> the at least one of the two killers had some involvement with
> youth gangs and had threatened another kid just the day before
> with a knife. I'm betting the parents didn;t know about any of
> this. The kids probably kept their secret lives hidden. If
> they were able to do this, then they were able to form the intent
> necessary to be held fully responsible for their own actions.
> Maybe they SHOULD be charged as adults?
>
> Steve
>
Scientist have proven, even monkeys can learn by watching. On almost any
TV channel at any hour, you can see some kind of killing. It is our
responsibilty as parents to monitor and teach our children what is right and
wrong. Liberal idealism has overcome the strong morals of a generation or 2
ago. No matter, it is still the responsibility of the parents. The govt.
should have nothing to do with the outcome of what has happened.
Ray
Dr. Filth wrote:
> If the AP story turns out to be true (the part about the killer's
> father being a leader of a gun club), that's the beginning of the end
> of private gun ownership in Merka. I mean, a gun activist and leader
> in the pro-gun movement- the type Republicans worship- and he can't
> even tell that his own kid is simply evil. If that's what the gun
> lobby is delivering to our children in red, white and blue wrapping
> paper, expect the "gift" to be refused by the mainstream public.
RR: Right-on, Dr. Filth! (Gee, never thought I'd be agreeing
with filth!)
pic...@swbell.net
In article <351a6281....@news.snowcrest.net>,
zepphol...@snowcrest.net (Zepp Weasel) wrote:
>
> On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 02:15:39 -0800, Marcus Poulin
> <vinc...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>
> Actually, in Arkansas, minors CAN possess guns. Now, I haven't heard
> if these kids owned those guns or stole 'em, but the real issue here
> is the idiot's notion that guns should be used to solve social
> problems. The gun loons squall all the time about using guns to
> "solve" crimes such as break ins, assaults, thefts and presumably bad
> driving habits. They even go so far as to accuse people who question
> this of being in favor of having their wives and daughters raped.
>
> Then they can't figure out why kids might think that guns are a handy
> solution to popularity problems in the 5th grade, and kill a bunch of
> people.
> >
>
Oh get of your soap box Marc. My wife has been raped twice. Once in a middle
class america neighborhood and once in our home in a country club
neighborhood. Had she followed my instructions/suggestions the night before,
she is certain the second could have been stopped. The rapist escaped to rape
another woman and kidnap and rape a 16 yr virginal honor student girl, before
being caught. Bringing his total to 19 women. We both now sleep with
handguns under our pillows. It's your liberal idealism that has created the
society that we live in today. Life is not utopia, had even one of these 19
victims or families not had to suffer through the indignation and not been
traumatised, it would have been worth much more than his life.
bw...@webworldinc.com
>In article <351A08...@Interaccess.com>, Ray <Ki...@Interaccess.com> wrote:
>> RR: Hmmmmm... could it be that no matter how much
>> you 'teach respect for life,' that children are
>> partly children because they are not mature enough
>> yet to understand and truely respect the concept?
>> It's a crying shame when adults mistakenly believe
>> their children are ready to act like adults. The Ramseys
>> did it with their daughter. And we know that gunners
>> do it with their sons.
>> With the Ramseys, it resulted in some disgusting
>> kiddie-porn video. With guns, however, we now know
>> it can result in mass murder.
>> Britain had Dunblane, and did something about it.
>> Now we have had Jonesboro. Will America act?
>
>Ray;
>
>You, and your ilk, are nothing more than a bunch of feasting ghouls
>surrounding the Jonesboro morgue.
>
>Without any wile or whim of thought, you drag these bodies around in your
>campaign, screaming like the town idiot "If only we had Gun Control!".
>
>I've had enough. Enough of you and your kinds "for the children" corpse
>prostitution and political necrophilia.
>
>I demand to know where you and the rest of your vultures are, Ray, when
>the children are in the classroom.
>
>I demand to know where you are, when the children are home, watching TV.
>
>I demand to know what you are doing, when the children are in front of
>you, begging to be parented.
>
I know where they will be found They are not the ghouls of old that
wait to feast from the graves of the freshly buried. They will be
found huddled around police scanners waiting for the next shooting
call, while pieces of rotten flesh, torn from the latest victims they
have exploited, drips from their propaganda blackened teeth.. When a
death occurs, they will then pounce upon the still warm body in a
feeding frenzy while hysterically screaming the lies of the gun
control lobby.
>--
>"Frankly, Agent Mulder, alien abduction is the more believable option."
> Agent Skinner, X-Files, 3/09/98 [paraphrase]
>-- John E. Jasen // DNRC Ambassador to Earth \\ jja...@umbc.edu --
>-- My views are those of the DNRC only. Prepare to be domesticated --
>
>
Christopher Morton
>Actually, in Arkansas, minors CAN possess guns. Now, I haven't heard
>if these kids owned those guns or stole 'em, but the real issue here
>is the idiot's notion that guns should be used to solve social
>problems. The gun loons squall all the time about using guns to
Do you believe that the police should be disarmed?
If not, you believe that "guns should be used to solve social
problems".
If unilateral disarmament is the answer, let officer friendly lead the
way.
gdy5...@prairie.lakes.com
ppro...@neosoft.com (Peter H. Proctor) wrote:
> A half-serious modest proposal. Ever see the British movie "If",
>about a group of Brit students who shoot up their school ? Just showed up on
>cable here in the US a month or so ago after years of absence. Maybe this
>caused the Arkansas incident.
no I don't believe any movie was behind it. But as long as you want to
speculate doc. How's about telling us about environmental estrogens
and how they can modify behavior and lower intellectual development?
>Dr. P
__________________________________________________
Let The White Rose enlighten you.
http://prairie.lakes.com/~gdy52150/whiterose.htm
gdy weasel
________________________________________________
Surfin' Al
Dan, can you honestly tell me what other more effective way they would have
found if they hadn't used guns?They may have been able to inflict some
harm, but not the amount they inflicted with the guns.
Dan Z <dan...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<6fdvpl$h...@sjx-ixn7.ix.netcom.com>...
In <351A08...@Interaccess.com> Ray <Ki...@Interaccess.com> writes:
>
> Britain had Dunblane, and did something about it.
>Now we have had Jonesboro. Will America act?
Ray, can you honestly say that these kids, if guns did not exist, would
not have found some other possibly even more effective way to do the
crime? Why do you simplistically blame the guns?
BTW, what are the homicide and violent crime rates in Britain before
and after they "did something about it?"
September 25 1996 The Times
Violent crime up by highest amount for eight years
VIOLENT crime rose by 10 per cent in England and Wales during the
year to the end of June, according to figures published yesterday.
The rise in recorded offences of violence, including robbery, was
the largest for eight years and ended a three-year fall in overall
crime.
Overall, crime recorded by the police rose by 0.4 per cent in
England and Wales to 5.1 million offences. But a Home Office survey
of 16,000 households suggested that the actual level of crime was
much higher at 19.1 million crimes last year.
* Violent crimes rose by 31,100 or 10 per cent, to 331,000, the
largest increase in eight years. However, violent crime was only 6
per cent of all crime recorded in the year to the end of June.
Life-threatening offences of violent crime rose by 15 per cent to
21,100, and less serious offences by 10 per cent to 207,500. The
number of homicides, including murder, manslaughter and infanticide,
was 730 compared with 729 in the year to June 1995.
--
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webm...@sexkey.com , lay...@skyweb.net
SYSA...@swsna.net , sys...@neztek.com , band...@sprynet.com ,
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, ibl...@aol.com ,
conta...@earthlink.net ,
Surfin' Al
What would the kids have done if they had been unable to steal those guns
in the first place?
John "E.R." Jasen <jja...@umbc.edu> wrote in article
<6fdq61$g...@umbc8.umbc.edu>...
In article <351A08...@Interaccess.com>, Ray <Ki...@Interaccess.com>
wrote:
> RR: Hmmmmm... could it be that no matter how much
> you 'teach respect for life,' that children are
> partly children because they are not mature enough
> yet to understand and truely respect the concept?
> It's a crying shame when adults mistakenly believe
> their children are ready to act like adults. The Ramseys
> did it with their daughter. And we know that gunners
> do it with their sons.
> With the Ramseys, it resulted in some disgusting
> kiddie-porn video. With guns, however, we now know
> it can result in mass murder.
> Britain had Dunblane, and did something about it.
> Now we have had Jonesboro. Will America act?
Ray;
You, and your ilk, are nothing more than a bunch of feasting ghouls
surrounding the Jonesboro morgue.
Without any wile or whim of thought, you drag these bodies around in your
campaign, screaming like the town idiot "If only we had Gun Control!".
I've had enough. Enough of you and your kinds "for the children" corpse
prostitution and political necrophilia.
I demand to know where you and the rest of your vultures are, Ray, when
the children are in the classroom.
I demand to know where you are, when the children are home, watching TV.
I demand to know what you are doing, when the children are in front of
you, begging to be parented.
--
volt...@geocities.com
On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 21:55:04 GMT, bkm...@bigfoot.NOSPAMcom (Bob K)
wrote:
>On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 18:24:26 GMT, "{fullname}" <{uname}@inreach.com>
>wrote:
>
>>With all the out cry and knee-jerking going on about this Arkansas tragedy,
>>has anyone thought for a minute about what our schools could or would be
>>like if this out of control government of ours hadn't banned God from the
>>classroom? I'm sure the socialist engineers are gearing up for yet another
>>ban of something here... wonder what that could be?
>
>Right. No doubt the Arkansas tragedy would have never happened if
>they just said a prayer every morning before school.... I wonder if
>the 2 shooters missed church last Sunday- perhaps that's the cause.
There will be lots of praying in Jonesboro this weekend, at funerals.
Jim
Ecrasons l'infame
Join The War On Right Wing Ignorance:
http://home.att.net/~clusterone/
==============================================================================
Remember, guns don't kill children. Children with high powered rifles
kill children.
--Suggested New NRA Slogan
==============================================================================
volt...@geocities.com
On 26 Mar 1998 22:03:57 GMT, pe...@mason.COM (PERRY MASON) wrote:
>In article <351A86...@livingston.net>, dsta...@livingston.net, Don
>Staples, says...
>>
>>Zepp Weasel wrote:
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> Then they can't figure out why kids might think that guns are a handy
>>> solution to popularity problems in the 5th grade, and kill a bunch of
>>> people.--
>>
>>
>>Yeh, we figured it out all right, you liberal assholes say let it all
>>happen, they are not responsible, show em all that violence on TV and in
>>the movies that is covered by the first ammendment. Let them do their
>>thing, one parent families, no control of the youth. A 13 year old
>>dating?
>>
>>Same anti gun troll bullshit.
>
>
>Yeah, let's blame liberals for the latest mass murder in the Bible Belt!.
>
>Why don't these anti-gun fanatics ban stairs, kitchen knives and
>automobiles as well a guns? Everyone know stairs, kitchen knives and cars
>kill too.
>
>Wait a minute! How is a sniper going to ambush an entire class and take out
>all those kids and a teacher with a stairway, a kitchen knife or an
>automobile?
>
>Oh well, maybe this isn't the time to bring up that argument.
But if had some really large stairs?
volt...@geocities.com
>
>volt...@geocities.com wrote in message
><6fejls$t...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
>>On 26 Mar 1998 09:53:53 -0500, jja...@umbc.edu (John "E.R." Jasen)
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>I demand to know why you are not explaining why a boy trained in a
>>school sponsored shooting program showed what he learned on his
>>classmates.
>>
>> Jim
>
>
>Of course, the school-sponsored shooting program obviously instructed the
>boys in how to ambush their classmates. They must have forgotten to teach
>them to wear their tinfoil helmets to shield them from the evil mind rays
>known to be emitted by weapons.
>Instead of providing instruction in the safe handling and use of firearms,
>perhaps the children should be told to piss their pants like a good liberal
>whenever they see a gun...
Do you think these two future NRA lifetime members could have pissed
five people to death, PL?
volt...@geocities.com
Why don't you tell us how the rural southern gun culture protected
these dead children and their teacher, Bubba.
Take your time.
Sluggo
On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 21:55:04 GMT, bkm...@bigfoot.NOSPAMcom (Bob K)
>On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 18:24:26 GMT, "{fullname}" <{uname}@inreach.com>
>wrote:
>
>>With all the out cry and knee-jerking going on about this Arkansas tragedy,
>>has anyone thought for a minute about what our schools could or would be
>>like if this out of control government of ours hadn't banned God from the
>>classroom? I'm sure the socialist engineers are gearing up for yet another
>>ban of something here... wonder what that could be?
>
>Right. No doubt the Arkansas tragedy would have never happened if
>they just said a prayer every morning before school.... I wonder if
>the 2 shooters missed church last Sunday- perhaps that's the cause.
Matter of fact - I'll go out on a limb and bet that these two little
monsters went to church pretty regularly. The live in the Bible belt,
and I will not be surprised to find out that they were well-exposed to
religion.
-Sluggo
Sluggo
>With all the out cry and knee-jerking going on about this Arkansas tragedy,
>has anyone thought for a minute about what our schools could or would be
>like if this out of control government of ours hadn't banned God from the
>classroom?
Hell, there'd probably be legions of Baptists shooting those damned
Methodists. Ever heard the term "Bloody Mary"? "Inquisition"?
Crusades"?
Religion is the absolute belief that you are an agent of the Almighty
God. It's a small step from that to taking action to rid the world of
the godless heathens whom god hates anyway. No, religion is not a
good thing to use as a remedy to violence.
> I'm sure the socialist engineers are gearing up for yet another
>ban of something here... wonder what that could be?
Deadly weapons?
Just a guess.
-Sluggo
Sluggo
>On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:17:01 GMT, zepphol...@snowcrest.net (Zepp
>Weasel) wrote:
>
>>Actually, in Arkansas, minors CAN possess guns. Now, I haven't heard
>>if these kids owned those guns or stole 'em, but the real issue here
>>is the idiot's notion that guns should be used to solve social
>>problems. The gun loons squall all the time about using guns to
>
>Do you believe that the police should be disarmed?
I do. I used to live in Britain where they were not armed. Of course,
Britain is a different environment, but... The vast majority of cops
say they have never pulled their guns in the line of duty, much less
fired them. Why does a traffic cop need a gun?
>If not, you believe that "guns should be used to solve social
>problems".
>
>If unilateral disarmament is the answer, let officer friendly lead the
>way.
Sounds good to me.
-Sluggo
Bubba
On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 03:57:08 GMT, volt...@geocities.com wrote:
*On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 23:28:59 GMT, jay...@kansas.com (Bubba) wrote:
*
*>On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:11:40 GMT, volt...@geocities.com wrote:
*>*
*>*I demand to know why you are not explaining why a boy trained in a
*>*school sponsored shooting program showed what he learned on his
*>*classmates.
*>*
*>* Jim
*>
*> I was wondering when this halfwitted moron would show up.
*>"It's not about Censorship. They're trying to keep you in the dark."
*
*Why don't you tell us how the rural southern gun culture protected
*these dead children and their teacher, Bubba.
*
*Take your time.
*
* Jim
I was wondering when this halfwitted moron would show up.
How does it feel to be dancing in the blood of children, Jim?
Bubba
On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 03:52:32 GMT, volt...@geocities.com wrote:
*
*There will be lots of praying in Jonesboro this weekend, at funerals.
*
* Jim
Or as Jim would normally say:
"Where was their Gawd when they needed him," eh Jim?
At least that's what you were spouting in January.
pic...@swbell.net
In article <6fdt4r$m19$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
cl...@xld.com wrote:
>
Well spoken Clark. Altho I feel you failed to clarify, the liberal, do what
feels good, "Big government" laws. I am doing my best at home to teach my
children whats right and wrong. I agree 100%, even though I can be arrested
for disciplining my children, I will still do it. But having taught them
decent morals at a young age, discipline is rarely needed. By now a harsh
word carries a lot of weight.
> Hi Marc!
> Greetings from:
> Clark, Still free in Round Rock Texas USA
> http://xld.com/ Addressing Social and Political Issues
>
> I concur with your assessment that more gun control laws just won't work.
> After all, the kids had no regard for existing laws.
>
> Big government has created a society where parents are no longer able to
teach
> children morality. Government has fostered this responsibility over to the
> schools, who've failed miserably.
>
> The parents of the shooter probably tried, but with the conflicts that
abound,
> the inevitable finally happened. It'll probably happen again and again.
> There's no quick cure. Absolute confiscation of every long gun and handgun
in
> the U.S. won't stop it.
>
> The problem lies with what we've taught our children to become, or rather,
> what we haven't taught them to become.
>
> Regards,
>
> In article <351A2A...@ix.netcom.com>,
> Marcus Poulin <vinc...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> > Ray wrote:
> > >
> > > Milt wrote:
> > > > Dennis Golden began taking his son hunting as a
> > > > young child and had recently begun training
> > > > him in ``practical shooting,'' a handgun
> > > > competition with moving and pop-up targets.
> > > > He said the boy was a pretty good shot,
> > > > although fairly slow.
> > > > ``Dennis and Pat both have tried as hard as any
> > > > parents to raise their child right, teach him
> > > > respect for life, teach him what firearms can do
> > > > and how to handle them safely,'' Crider said.
> > > > ``So that's one of the things that kind of alarms
> > > > me. ``They're trying seriously to get their heads
> > > > together and figure out what happened themselves,''
> > >
> > > RR: Hmmmmm... could it be that no matter how much
> > > you 'teach respect for life,' that children are
> > > partly children because they are not mature enough
> > > yet to understand and truely respect the concept?
> > > It's a crying shame when adults mistakenly believe
> > > their children are ready to act like adults. The Ramseys
> > > did it with their daughter. And we know that gunners
> > > do it with their sons.
> > > With the Ramseys, it resulted in some disgusting
> > > kiddie-porn video. With guns, however, we now know
> > > it can result in mass murder.
> > > Britain had Dunblane, and did something about it.
> > > Now we have had Jonesboro. Will America act?
> > Act and do what? Can kids own or possess handguns? No. Can kids own our
> > possess longarms NO. Your laws don't work.
> >
> > Marc
pic...@swbell.net
In article <351A8C...@the.bright.side>,
Brian Carey <lo...@the.bright.side> wrote:
>
> Zepp Weasel didn't get enough sleep before he wrote:
>
> > Actually, in Arkansas, minors CAN possess guns. Now, I haven't heard
> > if these kids owned those guns or stole 'em, but the real issue here
> > is the idiot's notion that guns should be used to solve social
> > problems. The gun loons squall all the time about using guns to
> > driving habits.
>
> concept of using guns to solve social problems such as bad driving
> habits.
>
> Go crawl back under your shell, Zepp, before you make an even bigger
> fool out of yourself.
>
> --
> Brian Carey --> car...@mindspring.com
>
> Religious Freedom Home Page:
> http://www.mindspring.com/~careyb/rframe.html
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> | Usenet Wisdom |
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "What is 'a procedure that is done at the begining of a
> pregnancy'? I always thought that was called 'fucking'. Did
> Ohio try to ban that?"
> - Zepp, with some enlightenment regarding human physiology
>
> "To deny Paul was sexist because there is a book in the Bible
> named after Deborah is silly indeed."
> - Gail Weasel, apparently forgetting that there is no book
> in the Bible named after Deborah
>
> "Aren't people who wear linens and eat pork just as perverted
> as gays? [The Apostle] Paul thought so..."
> - Milt Shook, theologian wannabe, making false statements
> about the Apostle Paul
>
No Brian, just to keep my wife from being raped a 3rd time. In an extreme
situation I may someday flip off some other driver, when he almost gets me
killed, I wont shoot him. I will however, shoot the scumbag rapist released
by your liberal idealistic laws, when he comes into my house.
Bill
pic...@swbell.net
In article <35199D8E...@fbtc.net>,
peg...@fbtc.net wrote:
>
> Milt:
> As is usually the case with the AP, the story implies that being "trained"
> makes you automatically a lethal homocidal maniac. I qualified as an expert
> rifleman while in the Marine Corps. I can pick a bug off your nose at 500
><great big huge snip>
This whole subject has reafirmed pride in my own children. Both my boys ages
8 and 10 both are trained in firearm use and safety. From experience they
both know the damage a gun will do. I made sure of it. First I asked the
oldest about bullies in his class, while the younger listened. Then I asked
about other subjects that I've heard instigated these kind of violent acts.
With disgust and almost a stupified (how could you ask such a dumb question
look), That would make me a murderer". I am not a religious fanatic. I do
put them to bed each night saying the "Now I lay me down to sleep, god bless
prayer. Through loss of family members, they both understand the finality of
death. That may have something to do with it. I welled up with a tears of
pride, listening to my boys responses.
pic...@swbell.net
In article <35199D8E...@fbtc.net>,
peg...@fbtc.net wrote:
>
> Milt:
> As is usually the case with the AP, the story implies that being "trained"
> makes you automatically a lethal homocidal maniac. I qualified as an expert
> rifleman while in the Marine Corps. I can pick a bug off your nose at 500
><great big huge snip>
This whole subject has reafirmed pride in my own children. Both my boys ages
8 and 10 both are trained in firearm use and safety. From experience they
both know the damage a gun will do. I made sure of it. First I asked the
oldest about bullies in his class, while the younger listened. Then I asked
about other subjects that I've heard instigated these kind of violent acts.
With disgust and almost a stupified (how could you ask such a dumb question
look), That would make me a murderer". I am not a religious fanatic. I do
put them to bed each night saying the "Now I lay me down to sleep, god bless
prayer. Through loss of family members, they both understand the finality of
death. That may have something to do with it. I welled up with a tears of
pride, listening to my boys responses.
Bill
W. E. Woods
<snip>
>Actually, in Arkansas, minors CAN possess guns. Now, I haven't heard
>if these kids owned those guns or stole 'em, but the real issue here
>is the idiot's notion that guns should be used to solve social
>problems. The gun loons squall all the time about using guns to
>"solve" crimes such as break ins, assaults, thefts and presumably bad
>driving habits. They even go so far as to accuse people who question
>this of being in favor of having their wives and daughters raped.
>
>Then they can't figure out why kids might think that guns are a handy
>solution to popularity problems in the 5th grade, and kill a bunch of
>people.
I was going to take you to task for your illogical arguement,
or at least chastise you for making such patently ridiculous
judgements and statements about people, but fuck it, you're
just another ghoul riding the dead bodies of these poor kids
in hopes of furthering your own sick, sad agenda.
<plonk>
______________________________________
| It is dangerous to be right when the |
| government is wrong | It is error alone
|______________________________________| which needs the support
of government. Truth can
stand by itself.
"I have sworn on the altar of God, eternal
hostility against every form of tyranny
over the mind of man."
Thomas Jefferson
Tim
W. E. Woods wrote:
>
>
> I was going to take you to task for your illogical arguement,
> or at least chastise you for making such patently ridiculous
> judgements and statements about people, but fuck it, you're
> just another ghoul riding the dead bodies of these poor kids
> in hopes of furthering your own sick, sad agenda.
>
Don't you dare mention it when someone does something which makes
The Right to Kill and Blow Away look less appealing.
Censorship is an insidious evil, doncha think?
Regards,
Tim.
david.o...@virgin.net
In article <3526ebd9...@enews.newsguy.com>,
cm...@nwohio.com wrote:
> Do you believe that the police should be disarmed?
>
> If not, you believe that "guns should be used to solve social
> problems".
>
> If unilateral disarmament is the answer, let officer friendly lead the
> way.
Believe it or not there are several places in the world where the police do
not routinely carry guns.
Some of them even have quite low murder rates too.
They do often have higher rates of crime against property as the perpertrator
is far less likely to get blown away.
Sounds like a judgement call eh?
Dave
david.o...@virgin.net
In article <01bd5926$9c6d9ae0$40b400d0@seufert>,
"Surfin' Al" <ha...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Ray, can you honestly say that these kids, if guns did not exist, would
> not have found some other possibly even more effective way to do the
> crime? Why do you simplistically blame the guns?
A lot of varied threads have covered this ground:
Driving a motor vehicle over the victims could have been just as effective,
however, it would have been logistically harder and less likely to kill their
designated targets.
A bomb is possible using the materials at hand, but an 11 year old would have
a hard time planting it and detonating sensibly. Also without access to
something like Semtex it would have been too bulky to guarentee results.
Petrol bombing might have worked but it is only truely effective in enclosed
spaces with barricaded exits. Night clubs apparently are favoured in some
parts of the US.
We have two trained and obviously highly able marksmen with experience of
shooting moving targets. Logically speaking the gun is the best weapon for
the job.
Personally as I dislike firearms and can't shoot terribly well anyway, and if
I was a fledgling psycopath I would either have gone for a modern crossbow or
the petrol option.
>
> BTW, what are the homicide and violent crime rates in Britain before
> and after they "did something about it?"
>
I saw the rest of the stats with this in your other post.
The crimes against property rate is higher in the UK than US although recent
surveys apparently show it crawling down a bit in areas where the police have
engaged in zero tolerance policing methods.
The murder rate is the most interesting, it is roughly a sixth.
I doubt if the Dunblaine rules have had much impact as the statistical
likelyhood of a shooting in the UK is virtually zero and was before the
incident. What you are missing is the massive public outcry. The Tories
lost a lot of political capital by refusing to instigate an immediate ban,
public opnion was against that - people wanted rid of the guns.
The next debate here of course is knives and marshal arts weapons.
My question, (as all of the above is fairly irrelevant and comparisons of the
UK and US is impossible without a datum), is this...
Do you really think these kids would have found another means of killing en
masse? Is the fact that they had the ability, knowledge, and access
significant to the case?
Agreed that these are two disfunctional fuckwits, but the answer to the
second question is in the affirmative it will make solving the problem much
much harder...
Dave
volt...@geocities.com
I fail to see how someone like me who questions your worship of the
holy firearms is to blame when kids start blasting away at other kids.
volt...@geocities.com
On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 04:19:48 GMT, jay...@kansas.com (Bubba) wrote:
>On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 03:52:32 GMT, volt...@geocities.com wrote:
>*
>*There will be lots of praying in Jonesboro this weekend, at funerals.
>*
>* Jim
>
> Or as Jim would normally say:
> "Where was their Gawd when they needed him," eh Jim?
>
> At least that's what you were spouting in January.
Perhaps they should pray to the NRA.
Those funerals are the result of a southern gun culture gone nuts.
And it has happened three times in the last 5 months.
Are you going to try to blame those of us who question your gun
worship, Bubba?
Zepp Weasel
On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:13:30 -0500, Brian Carey <lo...@the.bright.side>
wrote:
>Zepp Weasel didn't get enough sleep before he wrote:
>
>> Actually, in Arkansas, minors CAN possess guns. Now, I haven't heard
>> if these kids owned those guns or stole 'em, but the real issue here
>> is the idiot's notion that guns should be used to solve social
>> problems. The gun loons squall all the time about using guns to
>> "solve" crimes such as break ins, assaults, thefts and presumably bad
>> driving habits.
>
>Uh, yeah. The gun-rights crowd has always looked favorably towards the
>concept of using guns to solve social problems such as bad driving
>habits.
>
>Go crawl back under your shell, Zepp, before you make an even bigger
>fool out of yourself.
I said gun loons, Bri. You know--the fellows with the whirling eyes
and clenched teeth who never answer any post about guns except to
scream that the poster is a gun grabber.
The ones who have been angrilly defending the situation in Arkansas.
One of them even claimed to be a high school freshman who would do the
same because his school was so bad.
Do you agree that emotionally disturbed 11 year olds should have easy
access to high-powered arsenals?
>
>--
----------------------------------------------------
"QQQQQQQUACK, QQQQQQQQQQQUACK, QQQQQQQUACK....."
-- Tom "Ding-Dong" O'Dell, in one of
his more lucid moments.
-----------------------------------------------------
Be good, servile little citizen-employees:
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
When in doubt, call a stoat!
-----------------------------------------------------
Zepp Weasel
>With all the out cry and knee-jerking going on about this Arkansas tragedy,
>has anyone thought for a minute about what our schools could or would be
>like if this out of control government of ours hadn't banned God from the
>classroom? I'm sure the socialist engineers are gearing up for yet another
>ban of something here... wonder what that could be?
If God were in the classroom, you would be sitting here explaining to
us that it was "God's will" that those children should die now.
Instead, you are just using it as an advertizement for whatever trash
church you represent.
Marc
volt...@geocities.com wrote in message
<6fg92s$7...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
>On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 04:19:48 GMT, jay...@kansas.com (Bubba) wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 03:52:32 GMT, volt...@geocities.com wrote:
>>*
>>*There will be lots of praying in Jonesboro this weekend, at funerals.
>>*
>>* Jim
>>
>> Or as Jim would normally say:
>> "Where was their Gawd when they needed him," eh Jim?
>>
>> At least that's what you were spouting in January.
>
>Perhaps they should pray to the NRA.
>
>Those funerals are the result of a southern gun culture gone nuts.
>
>And it has happened three times in the last 5 months.
>
>Are you going to try to blame those of us who question your gun
>worship, Bubba?
And this from a self proclaimed gun owner. Why dont you start by getting
rid of your gun, Jim, since you seem to think that is the answer to it
all??? And just for your info, the NRA advertises for and supports the use
of lockable gun boxes, the kind, BTW, that the father had, which is why the
kids broke into the grandfathers house. I would fully support a law placing
blame on those who dont lock thier weapons away from children. So if that
law existed, the grandfather would share some blame, but make no mistake,
the vast majority, if not all, of the blame now rests with the two kids,
period.
The problem is the lack of parental involvment in these kids lives. Thier
parents said the kids were good kids with no problems.. But yet, one of
them had recently tried to commit suicide. How do you think that your kid
is fine when he tried to commit suicide? Its because the parents dont have
a clue about their own kids, and that is a problem.
Marc
Zepp Weasel
On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:45:09 -0600, cl...@xld.com wrote:
>Hi Marc!
>Greetings from:
>Clark, Still free in Round Rock Texas USA
>http://xld.com/ Addressing Social and Political Issues
>
>I concur with your assessment that more gun control laws just won't work.
>After all, the kids had no regard for existing laws.
>
>Big government has created a society where parents are no longer able to teach
>children morality. Government has fostered this responsibility over to the
>schools, who've failed miserably.
More right wing horseshit. If your whelps aren't housebroken, YOU
have failed miserably. Don't try to foist it off on the schools.
They don't run moral training. Oh, wait, I forgot--you rightwingers
want them to take over religious training. You guys aren't very good
at taking responsibility for your own, are you?
>
>The parents of the shooter probably tried, but with the conflicts that abound,
>the inevitable finally happened. It'll probably happen again and again.
>There's no quick cure. Absolute confiscation of every long gun and handgun in
>the U.S. won't stop it.
In fairness, I have no particular criticism of the parents at this
point.
>
>The problem lies with what we've taught our children to become, or rather,
>what we haven't taught them to become.
Guns can solve social and personal problems. Obviously those two kids
believe that horseshit.
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
----------------------------------------------------
Zepp Weasel
On 26 Mar 1998 16:29:41 GMT, dan...@ix.netcom.com(Dan Z) wrote:
>In <351A08...@Interaccess.com> Ray <Ki...@Interaccess.com> writes:
>>
>
>> Britain had Dunblane, and did something about it.
>>Now we have had Jonesboro. Will America act?
>
>
>Ray, can you honestly say that these kids, if guns did not exist, would
>not have found some other possibly even more effective way to do the
>crime? Why do you simplistically blame the guns?
OK--come up with a plausible scenario where those two kids could have
killed five people and injured ten others from 85 yards away without
using guns.
>
>BTW, what are the homicide and violent crime rates in Britain before
>and after they "did something about it?"
>
> September 25 1996 The Times
>
> Violent crime up by highest amount for eight years
>
> VIOLENT crime rose by 10 per cent in England and Wales during the
> year to the end of June, according to figures published yesterday.
> The rise in recorded offences of violence, including robbery, was
> the largest for eight years and ended a three-year fall in overall
> crime.
>
> Overall, crime recorded by the police rose by 0.4 per cent in
> England and Wales to 5.1 million offences. But a Home Office survey
> of 16,000 households suggested that the actual level of crime was
> much higher at 19.1 million crimes last year.
>
> * Violent crimes rose by 31,100 or 10 per cent, to 331,000, the
> largest increase in eight years. However, violent crime was only 6
> per cent of all crime recorded in the year to the end of June.
> Life-threatening offences of violent crime rose by 15 per cent to
> 21,100, and less serious offences by 10 per cent to 207,500. The
> number of homicides, including murder, manslaughter and infanticide,
> was 730 compared with 729 in the year to June 1995.
Gee. All of the UK is nearly as bad as New York.
Zepp Weasel
On 26 Mar 1998 22:19:28 GMT, Pe...@mason.COM (PERRY MASON) wrote:
>In article <6fe52o$1...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, dan...@ix.netcom.com,
>Dan Z, says...
>>
>>In <351a6281....@news.snowcrest.net>
>>zepphol...@snowcrest.net (Zepp Weasel) writes:
>
>...SNIP...
>
>>>
>>>Then they can't figure out why kids might think that guns are a handy
>>>solution to popularity problems in the 5th grade, and kill a bunch of
>>>people.
>>
>>
>>Can you honestly say that, if guns were totally unavailable, these kids
>>would not have found some other way to accomplish their ends? If not,
>>how can you blame their tools, rather than their motives? Perhaps it
>>was their upbringing, where they apparently were not taught that you
>>can't have everything you want, and therefore went off the deep end the
>>first time they were rejected.
Hey, no problem-o! All you got to do, sport, is show us a case where
a couple of kids managed to kill a bunch of people from nearly a
football fields' distance, without using a gun.
I -do- blame their motives. One of those motives was the cherished
gun-loon belief that guns can be used to solve social and personal
problems.
>>
>>
>
>
>Why don't these anti-gun fanatics ban stairs, kitchen knives and
>automobiles as well a guns? Everyone know stairs, kitchen knives and cars
>kill too.
>
>Wait a minute! How is a sniper going to ambush an entire class and take out
>all those kids and a teacher with a stairway, a kitchen knife or an
>automobile?
>
>Oh well, maybe this isn't the time to bring up that argument.
>
>
>
>--
> "Capital punishment is our society's recognition of the
> sanctity of human life." --Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-UT)
Zepp Weasel
>On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:17:01 GMT, zepphol...@snowcrest.net (Zepp
>Weasel) wrote:
>
>>Actually, in Arkansas, minors CAN possess guns. Now, I haven't heard
>>if these kids owned those guns or stole 'em, but the real issue here
>>is the idiot's notion that guns should be used to solve social
>>problems. The gun loons squall all the time about using guns to
>
>Do you believe that the police should be disarmed?
>
>If not, you believe that "guns should be used to solve social
>problems".
>
>If unilateral disarmament is the answer, let officer friendly lead the
>way.
Do you think that 11 and 13 year olds should have easy access to guns,
Snorts?
>
>---
>"Paul Begala: Goebbels without the limp." - C. Morton
>
>Check out http://extra.newsguy.com/~cmorton
Zepp Weasel
On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 23:54:52 -0600, pic...@swbell.net wrote:
>In article <351a6281....@news.snowcrest.net>,
> zepphol...@snowcrest.net (Zepp Weasel) wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 02:15:39 -0800, Marcus Poulin
>> <vinc...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Actually, in Arkansas, minors CAN possess guns. Now, I haven't heard
>> if these kids owned those guns or stole 'em, but the real issue here
>> is the idiot's notion that guns should be used to solve social
>> problems. The gun loons squall all the time about using guns to
>> "solve" crimes such as break ins, assaults, thefts and presumably bad
>> driving habits. They even go so far as to accuse people who question
>> this of being in favor of having their wives and daughters raped.
>>
>> Then they can't figure out why kids might think that guns are a handy
>> solution to popularity problems in the 5th grade, and kill a bunch of
>> people.
>> >
>> >Marc
>>
>Oh get of your soap box Marc. My wife has been raped twice. Once in a middle
>class america neighborhood and once in our home in a country club
>neighborhood. Had she followed my instructions/suggestions the night before,
>she is certain the second could have been stopped. The rapist escaped to rape
>another woman and kidnap and rape a 16 yr virginal honor student girl, before
>being caught. Bringing his total to 19 women. We both now sleep with
>handguns under our pillows. It's your liberal idealism that has created the
>society that we live in today. Life is not utopia, had even one of these 19
>victims or families not had to suffer through the indignation and not been
>traumatised, it would have been worth much more than his life.
You trying to tell us that there weren't rapists before America was
founded?
Sorry about your wife, but if you stopped to read our posts, neither
Jim nor I oppose having a gun for home defence. We both have some
hard questions about a culture that allows emotionally disturbed kids
to grab as many guns as they can carry and blow a bunch of their
classmates to hell and gone. We question the constant propaganda that
having a gun can solve all your problems and make you save. Think
your wife would be alive if she had fired at her attacker, and missed?
And he had a gun?
>
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
----------------------------------------------------
Publius
Zepp Weasel <zepphol...@snowcrest.net> wrote in article
<351bc697....@news.snowcrest.net>...
> On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 23:54:52 -0600, pic...@swbell.net wrote:
>
> >In article <351a6281....@news.snowcrest.net>,
> > zepphol...@snowcrest.net (Zepp Weasel) wrote:
> >>
> >> On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 02:15:39 -0800, Marcus Poulin
> >> <vinc...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >Oh get of your soap box Marc. My wife has been raped twice. Once in a
middle
> >class america neighborhood and once in our home in a country club
> >neighborhood. Had she followed my instructions/suggestions the night
before,
> >she is certain the second could have been stopped. The rapist escaped
to rape
> >another woman and kidnap and rape a 16 yr virginal honor student girl,
before
> >being caught. Bringing his total to 19 women. We both now sleep with
> >handguns under our pillows. It's your liberal idealism that has created
the
> >society that we live in today. Life is not utopia, had even one of
these 19
> >victims or families not had to suffer through the indignation and not
been
> >traumatised, it would have been worth much more than his life.
>
> You trying to tell us that there weren't rapists before America was
> founded?
I see nowhere he is attempting to tell you that. Why is it necessary to
introduce such a poor and unnecessary straw-man argument here?
> Sorry about your wife, but if you stopped to read our posts, neither
> Jim nor I oppose having a gun for home defence.
How kind of you to allow us this privilege.
> We both have some
> hard questions about a culture that allows emotionally disturbed kids
> to grab as many guns as they can carry and blow a bunch of their
> classmates to hell and gone.
Do you actually read what you've written before you hit your send button?
Who specifically "allowed" anyone to grab guns? The kids stole them, from
a family member, but they were stolen. If you wish to make a case of
individual responsibility on the part of the family member (I believe it
was a Grandfather) who "allowed" his guns to be accessible to two kids who
broke into his home and broke a glass door on a locked gun cabinet, then go
right ahead. You'd have some level of credibility in that instance
although you'd still be stretching to translate that into what you've done
here which is make a blanket generality that impugns an entire culture.
> We question the constant propaganda that
> having a gun can solve all your problems and make you save.
This would indeed be a sinister propaganda if it in fact existed. Surely,
if you're going to go to all the trouble of constructing a straw-man you
can at least put some pants on it so it's ass doesn't hang out and drag on
the ground? No-one I know of claims gun ownership solves all of ones
problems. They're handy to have for protection if you can get to it in
time and an intruder hasn't taken it so s/he can turn it on you. They're
good sport for those who wish to target practice or legally hunt as long as
they are used and stored responsibly. The ownership and responsible use of
one can certainly make you safer but I know of no one who claims that such
safety is absolute.
> Think
> your wife would be alive if she had fired at her attacker, and missed?
> And he had a gun?
Well. You've answered my question of above. Apparently you don't think
before you hit the send button. Why did you even bother stating that "you
and Jim don't oppose having a gun for home defense."? Here you are
inferring that said use is improper or unwise. If his wife had a gun and
fired at her attacker and hit than neither she nor the 16 year old girl
raped subsequently would have suffered such a heinous personal assault. Do
you have a problem with that? If she missed and in subsequent action died
in return fire then that is a risk she assumed in shooting in the first
place. That is why when people are trained in the use of a weapon for
self-defense they are advised not to shoot unless they can hit what they're
shooting at. Your question is equally ridiculous from the view-point that
if she had no weapon and the attacker did, he could still kill her after
the rape. If you're going to engage in hypotheticals the least you can do
is have a valid point.
Were you aware that the 11 and 13 year olds involved in the Arkansas
shooting used a van to transport their stolen guns? (Liberal hysteria mode
now engaged.) "My God! Can't you people see the danger in having vans
available for the use of 13 year olds with a vendetta? When are you going
to realize that vans and cars kill people! Sure this time it was just used
to transport a deadlier weapon like a gun, but after guns are outlawed then
we'll finally have to face the fact that cars and vans kill people! If
they didn't have access to the guns they could have and surely would have
just used the van to drive around the school yard during recess and run
these children over."
How about that Zeppy? Willing to draw the logical conclusion to your
inferences that cars and vans should be more highly regulated lest they
still continue to be used for vehicular homicide? Where do you draw the
line?
Publius
> On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:13:30 -0500, Brian Carey <lo...@the.bright.side>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >> Actually, in Arkansas, minors CAN possess guns. Now, I haven't heard
> >> if these kids owned those guns or stole 'em, but the real issue here
> >> is the idiot's notion that guns should be used to solve social
> >> problems. The gun loons squall all the time about using guns to
> >> "solve" crimes such as break ins, assaults, thefts and presumably bad
> >> driving habits.
> >
> >concept of using guns to solve social problems such as bad driving
> >habits.
> >
> >Go crawl back under your shell, Zepp, before you make an even bigger
> >fool out of yourself.
>
> I said gun loons, Bri. You know--the fellows with the whirling eyes
> and clenched teeth who never answer any post about guns except to
> scream that the poster is a gun grabber.
>
> The ones who have been angrilly defending the situation in Arkansas.
> One of them even claimed to be a high school freshman who would do the
> same because his school was so bad.
>
> access to high-powered arsenals?
I don't believe anyone agrees that emotionally disturbed individuals of any
age should have easy access to any type of weapons. You're assertion in
this case is however, ludicrous. Does breaking and entering constitute
"easy access?" If so then is the means by which you control such access,
banning all guns? If the juveniles in question had used the van they
illegally acquired and drove to transport the weapons as the means by which
to run down their victims would we be having this same conversation? Do
you have a point?
Steve Fischer
In article <6ffdp0$267$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com> pic...@swbell.net writes:
>In article <stratosE...@netcom.com>,
> str...@netcom.com (Steve Fischer) wrote:
>>
>> In article <351A08...@Interaccess.com> Ki...@Interaccess.com writes:
>> >Milt wrote:
><snip>
> > It's a crying shame when adults mistakenly believe
>> >their children are ready to act like adults. The Ramseys
>> >did it with their daughter. And we know that gunners
>> >do it with their sons.
>>
>> as innocent as they might seem. Other kids have testified that
>> the at least one of the two killers had some involvement with
>> youth gangs and had threatened another kid just the day before
>> with a knife. I'm betting the parents didn;t know about any of
>> this. The kids probably kept their secret lives hidden. If
>> they were able to do this, then they were able to form the intent
>> necessary to be held fully responsible for their own actions.
>> Maybe they SHOULD be charged as adults?
>>
>> Steve
>>
>Scientist have proven, even monkeys can learn by watching. On almost any
>TV channel at any hour, you can see some kind of killing. It is our
>responsibilty as parents to monitor and teach our children what is right and
>wrong. Liberal idealism has overcome the strong morals of a generation or 2
>ago. No matter, it is still the responsibility of the parents. The govt.
>should have nothing to do with the outcome of what has happened.
>
> Bill
>
It's not the violence, per se, that is driving this. It's the
portrayal of senseless violence - especially if the perpetrator is
not caught or is shown not to be sorry for what he's done.
When I was growing up, there were plenty of violent shows on TV.
The difference was that back then, when a bad guy killed someone,
you always KNEW that by the end of the show he'd end up dead or in
jail for the rest of his life. The shows taught morality: if you take
a life, and your own life is forfeit.
Compare that with a movies like "Natural Born Killers" or
"Friday the 13th, Part 105" or "Yet Another Nightmare on Elm Street,"
etc. Especially bad are the movies that glorify "gangsta" life.
--
/Steve D. Fischer/Atlanta, Georgia/str...@netcom.com/
Michael Zarlenga
Bubba (jay...@kansas.com) wrote:
: On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 03:57:08 GMT, volt...@geocities.com wrote:
: *Why don't you tell us how the rural southern gun culture protected
: *these dead children and their teacher, Bubba.
: *
: *Take your time.
: *
: * Jim
: I was wondering when this halfwitted moron would show up.
Like all turds, Jim Kennemanure bobs to the surface every now
and then.
--
-- Mike Zarlenga
finger zarl...@conan.ids.net for PGP public key
"It's our damned right to take whatever we want from you and
your pockets to give to others to buy their votes."
The American Democratic Party credo
Milt
This is an intersting analysis; one that's true, from my experience....
From the Boston Globe
By Larry Tye, Globe Staff, 03/26/98
Two college students are walking
down a corridor. One is bumped
and is addressed with a profanity; he
accepts it and ambles on. The second
gets red-faced and raises his middle
finger in defiance.
The first student is a Northerner, the
second is from the South.
Their responses, from a University of
Michigan study, are repeated with
dozens more male students, and a
pattern emerges: Southerners more
often respond with anger; Northerners
with amusement.
The study isn't the only one that seems to
defy the image of Southerners as courtly
and to suggest that, when it comes to
defending their honor, they may be more
prone to anger - and violence.
Add to that the easier availability of guns
in the South, criminologists say, and you
have a potentially compelling
explanation of why homicide rates are
higher there than in other regions and
why incidents like Tuesday's ambush in
Arkansas raise questions about the
propensity for violence below the
Mason-Dixon line.
''The South has a culture of honor in which insults and
affronts often
are responded to with violence,'' said Dov Cohen, coauthor of
the
Michigan study and of a book called ''Culture of Honor.''
''In many
ways, the North and South are converging, but in this area of
a
culture of honor and violence, they still are distinct.''
Kenneth Land, a sociology professor at Duke University in
Durham, N.C., has observed similar patterns. ''There seems to
be
a fairly general consensus that there's a Southern subculture
of
violence.
''What can be done? The first step, as the women's movement
said
back in the 1970s, is to raise our consciousness,'' Land
said.
''Then we need to let people, through the media and the
democratic process, try to come to grips with this type of
cultural
heritage.''
The notion of such regional differences doesn't mean that
violence
isn't also a problem in many parts of the North, particularly
in urban
centers. What it means, researchers say, is that the numbers
and
the tests suggesting proclivities to violence in the South
can't be
ignored, no matter how controversial they may be.
''Homicide rates in the South are disproportionately high,''
said
James Alan Fox, dean of the College of Criminal Justice at
Northeastern University. The trend is especially apparent
with
teenagers, he added, with the 11 states of the old
Confederacy
accounting for eight of the 20 states with the highest murder
rates
among 14- to 17-year-olds in 1996.
In Arkansas, the teenage murder rate was slightly higher than
in
Connecticut, nearly three times as high as in Massachusetts,
more
than three times higher than in New Hampshire, four times
higher
than in Vermont and Rhode Island, and six times higher than
in
Maine.
''People might be more likely in the South to respond to a
dispute
with fists or guns,'' Fox says, ''whereas in the North they
might do it
in the courts.''
Jeff Walker, who teaches criminology at the University of
Arkansas
at Little Rock, accepts the premise that the South has higher
rates
of homicide. But he does not accept that it is because
Southerners
are more violent, or because rifles and shotguns are easier
to
come by.
As plausible an explanation for the higher rates of fatal
crimes in
the South, he said, is that ''if someone is shot in New York
City or
Boston they're not very far from a hospital, but if they're
shot in rural
Kentucky they may be hours from a hospital and are more
likely to
die.''
And while the South has looser gun laws, Walker added, young
people there also are more likely to know how to use guns
safely.
Land, the Duke criminologist, offered a different
explanation: ''The
highest homicide rates in the South tend to be in highland
areas
settled by Scots originally, or Scot-Irish. If you go back
culturally to
Scotland, you find a dueling tradition. And among Europeans,
Scots tend to have relatively high homicide rates.''
Researchers at the University of Michigan were intrigued by
the
theories on violence and decided to run tests to see whether
there
was any difference in temperament between the regions.
In one study, more than 100 male students were asked to walk
separately down a narrow hallway where their path was blocked
by
a large man who called them an unflattering name. Reactions
were
measured by observing facial reactions as well as testing for
such
hormones as testosterone, which signals aggression.
''Southerners
responded with more anger than amusement,'' Cohen says,
''while
with Northerners, it was the reverse.''
Researchers ran other tests, including one in which college
newspapers were asked, for a fee, to write a story out of a
collection of facts about a man who assaults an acquaintance
after
the acquaintance approaches him at a party and calls his
sister
and mother disparaging names.
''We found the Southern and Western papers were more likely
to
write stories that were sympathetic to that honor-related
assault,''
Cohen said.
''Southerners don't endorse violence generally,'' Cohen said.
''But
they do endorse it when it's for self-protection or defense
of their
honor.''
Steve Fischer
In article <351B5A...@Interaccess.com> Ki...@Interaccess.com writes:
>Dr. Filth wrote:
>> If the AP story turns out to be true (the part about the killer's
>> father being a leader of a gun club), that's the beginning of the end
>> of private gun ownership in Merka. I mean, a gun activist and leader
>> in the pro-gun movement- the type Republicans worship- and he can't
>> even tell that his own kid is simply evil. If that's what the gun
>> lobby is delivering to our children in red, white and blue wrapping
>> paper, expect the "gift" to be refused by the mainstream public.
>
>RR: Right-on, Dr. Filth! (Gee, never thought I'd be agreeing
>with filth!)
Filth is living in a dream world of his own making. Into that
world, little truth penetrates.
Of course you agree with him. You only got HALF the story.
If you had bothered to listen to more detailed follow-up accounts
of the story you would have found out that the gun-club father
took GREAT PAINS to teach his child about gun safety and the
responsibility that goes along with gun ownership. Neighbors who
know the man testified to that. Despite his teachings, the kid
CHOSE to hang out with another kid who had no sense of right and
wrong, and he paid the price for that friendship. Some kids are
simply bad. You can teach them right from wrong, but they choose
to ignore the teachings. That's why we try them in court as adults.
For every 1 kid who fucks up badly, as this kid did, there are
1000's of others who don't; kids who deserve the trust of their
parents and who follow their parents wishes.
Steve
Bob K
>On 26 Mar 1998 16:29:41 GMT, dan...@ix.netcom.com(Dan Z) wrote:
<clip>
>> VIOLENT crime rose by 10 per cent in England and Wales
<clip>
>> * Violent crimes rose by 31,100 or 10 per cent, to 331,000, the
>> largest increase in eight years. However, violent crime was only 6
>> per cent of all crime recorded in the year to the end of June.
>> Life-threatening offences of violent crime rose by 15 per cent to
>> 21,100, and less serious offences by 10 per cent to 207,500. The
>> number of homicides, including murder, manslaughter and infanticide,
>> was 730 compared with 729 in the year to June 1995.
>
>Gee. All of the UK is nearly as bad as New York.
Looks like they're doing their best to catch up quick. Maybe you
should try packing all 50 million people into a couple hundred square
miles. I'm sure that even without guns they could compete.
Bob K (remove NOSPAM to reply by email)
JDaniels
What a loser to suggest that kicking a right winger is excersize.
You Sir, Ma'am, are an idiot.
Jessy
Zepp Weasel wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:01:25 GMT, bkm...@bigfoot.NOSPAMcom (Bob K)
> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:43:50 UNDEFINED, ppro...@neosoft.com (Peter H.
> >Proctor) wrote:
> >
> >> A half-serious modest proposal. Ever see the British movie "If",
> >>about a group of Brit students who shoot up their school ? Just showed up on
> >>cable here in the US a month or so ago after years of absence. Maybe this
> >>caused the Arkansas incident.
> >
> >I think you'd have a hard time showing how any movie 'caused' the
> >Arkansas incident. The first problem would be proving that it was
> >only shown in Arkansas since there haven't been any similar incidents
> >in other states recently.
>
> I don't believe it was caused by a movie, but two other states have
> had instances of kids shooting at classmates. All southern, and all
> by kids small for their age.
> =====================================================================
> Kicking a cat is cruel.
> Kicking a child is appalling.
> Kicking a baby is hideous.
> Kicking a right-winger is exercise.
>
>
>
> Be a good little citizen/employee, and pay your taxes so
> the rich dont' have to.
> Novus Ordo Seclorum Volpus de Marina
> =====================================================================
Steve Hix
> TRUTH & JUSTICE <TR...@JUSTICE.COM> wrote:
> > Wait a minute! How is a sniper going to ambush an entire class and take out
> > all those kids and a teacher with a stairway, a kitchen knife or an
> > automobile?
The automobile would be pretty easy. (If your strawperson actually existed,
and assuming it had something resembling a brain, gasoline would be more
likely.)
CDR
You, "milt...@earthlink.net" , Are Inappropriately Crossposting to
"alt.radio.talk" And Will Pay The Price if it Continues.
alt.radio.talk is a general interest newsgroup dedicated to discussion of TALK
RADIO, and not your favorite political peeves. The rest of the newsgroups you
posted to seem appropriate to me. But you had should drop alt.radio.talk from
your general political posting as the enormous response thread makes it
difficult for those just wishing to read posts on TALK RADIO.
Your posting IS in violation of the newsgroup charter and there IS a grievance
process and your inappropriate cross-posting will be reported, possibly
jeopardizing your newsgroup access privileges.
cdr
Marc
Zepp Weasel wrote in message <351bc64c....@news.snowcrest.net>...>Morton) wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:17:01 GMT, zepphol...@snowcrest.net (Zepp
>>Weasel) wrote:
>>
>>>Actually, in Arkansas, minors CAN possess guns. Now, I haven't heard
>>>if these kids owned those guns or stole 'em, but the real issue here
>>>is the idiot's notion that guns should be used to solve social
>>>problems. The gun loons squall all the time about using guns to
>>
>>
>>If not, you believe that "guns should be used to solve social
>>problems".
>>
>>If unilateral disarmament is the answer, let officer friendly lead the
>>way.
>
>Snorts?
Easy access??? Did they pull a rifle down off the gun rack over the
fireplace?? NO. They broke into someones house and stole them. And if you
think gramps should be charged with something because it was his guns that
were used, I would completely agree. If the kids had the notion that guns
can used to solve social problems, then the parents shame some blame for
teaching that. But I defy you you to produce documentation where the NRA
says that guns are the solution to all social problems. They teach gun
responsibility. They advocate locking your guns up to keep them away from
children. They support the 2nd amendment which guaruntees the right to own
weapons. They do NOT condone such violence as displayed in Arkansas. And
the fact is that these kids apparently had motive and determination enough,
that they would have found a way even without guns. Did you know that they
had a crossbow and a bow with them as well??? That would work from a
distance. If not that, then a bomb. If not that, then run them over with
the van they had stolen from home. If not that, ...etc... Get the point?
The problem is why the kids thought this way in the first place. One clue,
it wasnt the NRA.
Marc
Bubba
On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:44:23 -0600, JDaniels <jad...@ibm.net> wrote:
*What a loser to suggest that kicking a right winger is excersize.
*You Sir, Ma'am, are an idiot.
*Jessy
Funny how they purport to condemn violence too. But that is just a part of
the BIG lie theory to which they subscribe.
*Zepp Weasel wrote:
*
*> Kicking a right-winger is exercise.
Dick Lander
In article <351f1f83...@news.one.net>,
nos...@greycloak.access.one.net (Dr. Filth) wrote:
> I posted, sarcastically:
>
> >> "Well regulated" my ass.
> >
> >You have stumbled upon the very thing that was meant by
> >"well-regulated".
> >
> >It has nothing in the least to do with control by the state,
> >is has to do with judgement, self control (and to a lesser
> >extent) competency subordinate to them.
>
> I agree totally in principle, except that many individuals have no
> self control or family control.
But many, perhaps most, others *do.* Why are you so anxious to deprive
everyone because of the actions of a few?
> But actually the US Constitution goes
> on to define "well regulated" and it does assign this regulation to
> the gummint. The Second Amendment just prevents Congress from
> disarming the military. I don't like it, but it's pretty clear.
Your lack of understanding of the Constitution is duly noted.
> If the AP story turns out to be true (the part about the killer's
> father being a leader of a gun club), that's the beginning of the end
> of private gun ownership in Merka.
Dream on, Filth. Are *you* going to confiscate them? Better be prepared...
> I mean, a gun activist and leader
> in the pro-gun movement- the type Republicans worship- and he can't
> even tell that his own kid is simply evil.
Is that something that's supposed to be imbued by gun ownership or
something? What a ludicrous comment.
> If that's what the gun
> lobby is delivering to our children in red, white and blue wrapping
> paper, expect the "gift" to be refused by the mainstream public.
>
>
> Dr. Filth
Yeah, you just keep hoping, pal.... Most of the mainstream public doesn't
blame millions of people for the actions of criminals.
--
Richard W. (Dick) Lander; sportsman,
Macintosh devotee, proponent of personal liberty
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Another day...another chance something
will be found hazardous to my health...
ultim...@hotmail.com
In article <pproctor.17...@neosoft.com>,
ppro...@neosoft.com (Peter H. Proctor) wrote:
>
> A half-serious modest proposal. Ever see the British movie "If",
> about a group of Brit students who shoot up their school ? Just showed up
on
> cable here in the US a month or so ago after years of absence. Maybe this
> caused the Arkansas incident.
...well, since IF.... is based on the '32 Jean Vigo classic ZERO FOR CONDUCT,
do we blame all this on the French? :-) ...
King Daevid MacKenzie, UltimaJock! ultim...@unforgettable.com
"Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible." ZAPPA
("|`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
`6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`)
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
_..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
(il),-'' (li),' ((!.-'
King Daevid's (Newly Updated) Great Mate Hunt is on at
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/7853/matehunt.html
cl...@xld.com
Greetings From:
Clark, Still Free in Round Rock Texas USA
http://xld.com/ Social and Political Issues, Current Events
And I'm no Right Winger either!
Without the Bill of Rights, the Constitution of the United States
has no more meaning than the Constitution of any nation. The
Anti-federalists were on the mark on that point, that individual
rights should be enumerated and be a part of the Constitution.
The Federalists view was that enumeration was not needed since
the rights had been established.
If anyone ever doubted the precise meaning of the Second
Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, This excerpt
from The Federalist Papers should make it very clear. It was
written by James Madison, the same Founder that authored the
Second Amendment.
Mr. Madison explains the right to arms very clearly. He explains
who, what, when, where, and why.
***Excerpt From The Federalist Papers, Essay # 46***
The only refuge left for those who prophesy the downfall of the
State governments is the visionary supposition that the federal
government may previously accumulate a military force for the
projects of ambition. The reasonings contained in these papers
must have been employed to little purpose indeed, if it could be
necessary now to disprove the reality of this danger. That the
people and the States should, for a sufficient period of time,
elect an uninterrupted succession of men ready to betray both;
that the traitors should, throughout this period, uniformly and
systematically pursue some fixed plan for the extension of the
military establishment; that the governments and the people of
the States should silently and patiently behold the gathering
storm and continue to supply the materials until it should be
prepared to burst on their own heads must appear to everyone more
like the incoherent dreams of a delirious jealousy, or the
misjudged exaggerations of a counterfeit zeal, than like the
sober apprehensions of genuine patriotism. Extravagant as the
supposition is, let it, however, be made. Let a regular army,
fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let
it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government: still
it would not be going too far to say that the State governments
with the people on their side would be able to repel the danger.
The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a
standing army can be carried in any country does not exceed one
hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twentyfifth
part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not
yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or
thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia
amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their
hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting
for their common liberties and united and conducted by
governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may
well be doubted whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever
be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops. Those who
are best acquainted with the late successful resistance of this
country against the British arms will be most inclined to deny
the possibility of it. Besides the advantage of being armed,
which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other
nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the
people are attached and by which the militia officers are
appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition,
more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any
form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in
the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the
public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust
the people with arms. And it is not certain that with this aid
alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were
the people to possess the additional advantages of local
governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national
will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out
of the militia by these governments and attached both to them and
to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance
that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily
overturned in spite of the legions which surround it. Let us not
insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the
suspicion that they would be less able to defend the rights of
which they would be in actual possession than the debased
subjects of arbitrary power would be to rescue theirs from the
hands of their oppressors. Let us rather no longer insult them
with the supposition that they can ever reduce themselves to the
necessity of making the experiment by a blind and tame submission
to the long train of insidious measures which must precede and
produce it.
The argument under the present head may be put into a very
concise form, which appears altogether conclusive. Either the
mode in which the federal government is to be constructed will
render it sufficiently dependent on the people, or it will not.
On the first supposition, it will he restrained by that
dependence from forming schemes obnoxious to their constituents.
On the other supposition, it will not possess the confidence of
the people, and its schemes of usurpation will be easily defeated
by the State governments, who will be supported by the people.
On summing up the considerations stated in this and the last
paper, they seem to amount to the most convincing evidence that
the powers proposed to be lodged in the federal government are as
little formidable to those reserved to the individual States as
they are indispensably necessary to accomplish the purposes of
the Union; and that all those alarms which have been sounded of a
meditated and consequential annihilation of the State governments
must, on the most favorable interpretation, be ascribed to the
chimerical fears of the authors of them.
***End of Excerpt***
We need only interpolate by plugging in today's figures. The
population of the United States stands at 260,000,000 souls, more
or less. The armed force that the federal government can field
is about 2,600,000, or the mentioned 1/100 part of the total
population. The people are capable of fielding a force 20 times
that number, or 52,000,000 with arms in their hands. And that is
just the males.
At this point, I'd like to point out that the essay was written
even before the Constitution was ratified, much less the Bill of
Rights. As noted, the Bill of Rights was an afterthought to
appease the Anti-federalists, whose help was sorely needed to get
the Constitution ratified.
As Mr. Madison reasoned, the people have elected a succession of
men (and women) who are ready to betray both the people and the
states to their own pleasures.
It's very clear then, that the right to keep and bear arms is an
individual right with or without the Second Amendment. It
existed before the Constitution itself became the supreme law of
the land. The Second Amendment simply reinforces that fact.
Therefore, it does not matter what the modern day gun-control
activists think, what the courts find, what laws are passed
restricting arms ownership, what the federal police agencies say,
precedent was set before the Constitution took effect. And it
must remain that way until it is altered the only legimate way
that it can be altered, and that is by the people.
In article <351bc654....@news.snowcrest.net>,
> >> > It's a crying shame when adults mistakenly believe
> >> > their children are ready to act like adults. The Ramseys
> >> > did it with their daughter. And we know that gunners
> >> > do it with their sons.
> >> > With the Ramseys, it resulted in some disgusting
> >> > kiddie-porn video. With guns, however, we now know
> >> > it can result in mass murder.
> >> > Britain had Dunblane, and did something about it.
> >> > Now we have had Jonesboro. Will America act?
> >> Act and do what? Can kids own or possess handguns? No. Can kids own our
> >> possess longarms NO. Your laws don't work.
> >>
> >> Marc
> >>
> >
> >
> >-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> >http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> "QQQQQQQUACK, QQQQQQQQQQQUACK, QQQQQQQUACK....."
> -- Tom "Ding-Dong" O'Dell, in one of
> his more lucid moments.
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Be good, servile little citizen-employees:
> Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
>
> When in doubt, call a stoat!
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
Michael Ejercito
> On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 04:19:48 GMT, jay...@kansas.com (Bubba) wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 03:52:32 GMT, volt...@geocities.com wrote:
> >*
> >*There will be lots of praying in Jonesboro this weekend, at funerals.
> >*
> >* Jim
> >
> > Or as Jim would normally say:
> > "Where was their Gawd when they needed him," eh Jim?
> >
> > At least that's what you were spouting in January.
>
> Perhaps they should pray to the NRA.
>
> Those funerals are the result of a southern gun culture gone nuts.
You really think that is the case,voltless? Would you prefer if they
used bows and arrows? Or a truck bomb like your hero Timothy McVeigh?
Michael
volt...@geocities.com
>On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:13:30 -0500, Brian Carey <lo...@the.bright.side>
>wrote:
>
>>Zepp Weasel didn't get enough sleep before he wrote:
>>
>>> Actually, in Arkansas, minors CAN possess guns. Now, I haven't heard
>>> if these kids owned those guns or stole 'em, but the real issue here
>>> is the idiot's notion that guns should be used to solve social
>>> problems. The gun loons squall all the time about using guns to
>>> "solve" crimes such as break ins, assaults, thefts and presumably bad
>>> driving habits.
>>
>>Uh, yeah. The gun-rights crowd has always looked favorably towards the
>>concept of using guns to solve social problems such as bad driving
>>habits.
>>
>>Go crawl back under your shell, Zepp, before you make an even bigger
>>fool out of yourself.
>
>I said gun loons, Bri. You know--the fellows with the whirling eyes
>and clenched teeth who never answer any post about guns except to
>scream that the poster is a gun grabber.
>
>The ones who have been angrilly defending the situation in Arkansas.
>One of them even claimed to be a high school freshman who would do the
>same because his school was so bad.
>
>Do you agree that emotionally disturbed 11 year olds should have easy
>access to high-powered arsenals?
How many 11 and 13 year-olds are members of a well regulated militia?
volt...@geocities.com
On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 10:11:59 -0500, "Marc" <ma...@nospam.himark.com>
wrote:
>volt...@geocities.com wrote in message
><6fg92s$7...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
>>On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 04:19:48 GMT, jay...@kansas.com (Bubba) wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 03:52:32 GMT, volt...@geocities.com wrote:
>>>*
>>>*There will be lots of praying in Jonesboro this weekend, at funerals.
>>>*
>>>* Jim
>>>
>>> Or as Jim would normally say:
>>> "Where was their Gawd when they needed him," eh Jim?
>>>
>>> At least that's what you were spouting in January.
>>
>>Perhaps they should pray to the NRA.
>>
>>Those funerals are the result of a southern gun culture gone nuts.
>>
>>And it has happened three times in the last 5 months.
>>
>>Are you going to try to blame those of us who question your gun
>>worship, Bubba?
>
>And this from a self proclaimed gun owner. Why dont you start by getting
>rid of your gun, Jim, since you seem to think that is the answer to it
>all???
Nope. I have mine properly stored.
And I do not worship it as some cold steel Gawd.
> And just for your info, the NRA advertises for and supports the use
>of lockable gun boxes, the kind, BTW, that the father had, which is why the
>kids broke into the grandfathers house. I would fully support a law placing
>blame on those who dont lock thier weapons away from children. So if that
>law existed, the grandfather would share some blame, but make no mistake,
>the vast majority, if not all, of the blame now rests with the two kids,
>period.
But you just said that Grandpa did not secure his weapons or ammo
properly.
Is he not at fault in any way?
>The problem is the lack of parental involvment in these kids lives. Thier
>parents said the kids were good kids with no problems.. But yet, one of
>them had recently tried to commit suicide. How do you think that your kid
>is fine when he tried to commit suicide? Its because the parents dont have
>a clue about their own kids, and that is a problem.
These parents were involved enough to teach their kids that guns were
cool and fun.
Someone taught them to shoot.
They learned their lesson well.