Re: America is not a Christian nation
*us*
>On Dec 24, 7:40�am, Mitchell Holman <noemailple...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> BruceS <bruce...@hotmail.com> wrote innews:c5975880-2611-4eff...@27g2000yqr.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> > �Unfortunately, religion is a necessary element
>> > of society, and conflict is inevitable.
>>
>> � � �What makes religion "necessary"?
>
>... it fills a
>void in most people's lives.
Not necessarily.
>...Religion gives people a set of principles to live by, without
>which they act savagely and disrupt society...
That's false.
Plenty of people are decent and abide by societal
rules, without religion. [The Bible mentions that.]
>When a religion serves
>to encourage savage behavior, as
Christianity sure does.
>... it
>generally encourages behaviors that benefit society ...
Why do you hold that belief?
S'mee
Of fuck off spammer.
Lookout
According to our Founding Fathers this country was NOT founded on
christian principals and you certainly can't call what the
conservatives take credit for "christian" by any stretch of the
imagination.
Mitchell Holman
news:mbf8j5pne8dvnediu...@4ax.com:
And Conservatives know all about the Founding
Fathers. Just ask them.
"The Constitution established the United States of
America as a Christian nation"
John McCain, June 5 2008. The Constitution in fact
makes no mention of God or of Jesus or any religion
whatsoever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9izhjnaLa3M
purple
I'm sure you're an expert on this stuff, aren't you?
Sid9
"purple" <pur...@colorme.com> wrote in message
news:7pivdh...@mid.individual.net...
.
You have a problem with the truth.
He tells you the truth and you change the subject to the poster.
purple
Expert #2 has chimed in? How many of you, real and pseudo,
are there?
> He tells you the truth and you change the subject to the poster.
He changed the subject to people. I merely took up his/her
banner and continued with the topic. The founding fathers
never said the US is not founded on Christian principles.
If they did, show me where. None of you can, because they
didn't.
Each of them wrestled with the topic of slavery. Those
were purchased in Africa to some extent or another from
Arab (read Muslim) slave traders who headed up that
traffic stream. There's a topic rarely discussed these
days, and needs to be.
*us*
He's the messenger, and his message happens to be correct.
Were you honest, you'd be addressing the message, not
indulging in your ad hominem fallacy.
Does your religion tell you to be dishonest?
>...an expert on this stuff, aren't you?
He's the messenger, and his message happens to be correct.
Were you honest, you'd be addressing the message, not
indulging in your ad hominem fallacy.
*us*
You are right, but Bush and Cheney, as so many other
such terrorists throughout history, are self-proclaimed
Christians. Bush even claimed that God speaks
through him.
See Mitchell Holman's reply.
Lookout
Treaty of Tripoly Article 11
Initiated by Washington, signed by Adams and voted on UNAMOMOUSLY by
the US Senate.
Expert? Nah..I just know enough to prove my point.
Lookout
Ah...but I proved you wrong. You don't know what you're talking about,
do you?
>If they did, show me where. None of you can, because they
>didn't.
I did you Ignorant dumbass
*us*
>OTOH I would also blame the Iraqi people
That's just because you're stoopid, poople.
>... permitting Saddam
>to accumulate the power he had...
See "CIA".
>... cowards wear the mantle of guilt ...
Well, you wear something, but it's quite unattractive.
>...the Afghan terrorists ...
Nobody in Afghanistan had anything to do with 9/11.
>Liberal ...
Your idols Hitler and Stalin also hated liberals.
*us*
>...The founding fathers
>never said the US is not founded on Christian principles.
Sure they did. You're just too stupid to read for comprehension.
"no one can claim for the United States the name of a Christian state"
http://www.jewish-history.com/occident/volume7/feb1850/notchristian.html
"Christians are evil, they have always been evil, they are un-American,
anti-freedom and a threat to our national security"
http://christianterrorism.org/
"The question really is how long are we going to let these Christian terrorists�with scare
tactics such as boycotts, abortion clinic bombings, and really just plain old evangelical
bullying�hijack our country and our Constitution and chip away at the principles of the
very amendment that gives them the right to be �Christians� in the first place?"
http://think.dumblaws.com/2006/10/good-old-christian-terrorism/
"Christian terrorist campaign"
http://scold.moondance.org/2009/06/pro-life-christian-terrorism/
"Any religious organization that advocates murder and claims justification
on the basis of a document written thousands of years ago needs to be
regarded as a terrorist organization."
http://www.qctimes.com/news/opinion/mailbag/article_34305aae-d8a7-11de-a78d-001cc4c03286.html
purple
You can't even spell unanimously or Tripoli but you think
you understand the facts?
Check the Avalon Project at the Yale Law School when you
announce stuff about "Article 11." You've proved nothing
other than your ignorance.
*us*
>...can't even spell ...
Your stupidity goes far beyond that, stoopid poople.
"The men responsible for building the foundation of the United States
had little use for Christianity, and many were strongly opposed to it.
They were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity"
purple
No you haven't proved anything.
>
>> If they did, show me where. None of you can, because they
>> didn't.
> I did you Ignorant dumbass
No you did not. I'll do some of the work here you should have
done for yourself.
The constitution itself was to a great extent influenced by
the ideas presented by Montesquieu, a Catholic who spoke and
wrote against feudalism well before its voluntary dissolution
in Europe some 93 years after his death. In order to achieve
that he needed to destroy the hold of the clergy over
governments.
Removing the clergy from the having influence over the "police
powers of the state" merely means that church and state must be
separated, not that the foundations of a state are thereby not
Christian. The US is founded on Christian principals.
The Declaration of Independence, as well as the Constitution,
also has to give thanks to John Locke, another Christian. Here's
a famous statement form the Declaration:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are
created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with
certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty
and the pursuit of Happiness."
Jefferson wrote, in 1775, "Believe me, dear Sir: there is not
in the British empire a man who more cordially loves a union
with Great Britain than I do. But, by the God that made me,
I will cease to exist before I yield to a connection on such
terms as the British Parliament propose; and in this, I think
I speak the sentiments of America."
Mention of the Creator, and of God, how much more Christian
could you get?
Another strong influence for the US Constitution was Magna
Carta, reaching back into Christian England of 1215 AD,
another very Christian document.
You rely on a treaty, originally written in Arabic and
wrongly translated for later day political purposes to
determine what it was the the founders had intended. You
have not done your homework and don't understand any of
the topic. You're like the cop who arrests a butcher
because "he had blood all over him" after the butcher's
wife was found murdered. A single point of reference is
insufficient when there is a lot of countering data.
Have you read the Constitution itself, the history of
its creation, the other documents from which it was
derived, or anything at all on the topic other than
someone else's anti-religion usenet postings? It seems
you haven't.
The only thing worse than a troll is a repeater, a
poseur who mimics someone else's personal agendas
taken on as your own.
Guess what? You're the ignorant dumbass.
Sid9
.
The founders were quite specific about separating "creator" from "Christian"
Your "creator" might have a very specific meaning to different individuals.
Some may believe that their father (daddy) is their creator.
sometimers
Are you a close relative to Don Quixote?
Sid9
"sometimers" <somet...@sometime.invalid.net> wrote in message
news:hh2vsm$mag$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
.
.
Same shit, new nym.
Goodbye!
purple
You lost this "debate" early on. Thanks for admitting it.
The fact that founders delineated creator from Christian
once again fails to address any relevant issues. It is
your hallmark.
Goodbye, and good riddance!
Lookout
Treaty of Tripoly? You're going to deny that?
Lookout
It's a fact you dumbass. I don't give a damn if someone else can't
read.
I proved you wrong.
purple
> On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 09:15:16 -0600, purple <pur...@colorme.com> wrote:
>
>> Lookout wrote:
>>> On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 23:03:46 -0600, purple <pur...@colorme.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Lookout wrote:
>>>>> According to our Founding Fathers this country was NOT founded on
>>>>> christian principals and you certainly can't call what the
>>>>> conservatives take credit for "christian" by any stretch of the
>>>>> imagination.
_
>>>> I'm sure you're an expert on this stuff, aren't you?
>>> Treaty of Tripoly Article 11
>>> Initiated by Washington, signed by Adams and voted on UNAMOMOUSLY by
>>> the US Senate.
_
>>> Expert? Nah..I just know enough to prove my point.
>> You can't even spell unanimously or Tripoli but you think
>> you understand the facts?
_
>> Check the Avalon Project at the Yale Law School when you
>> announce stuff about "Article 11." You've proved nothing
>> other than your ignorance.
>
> It's a fact you dumbass. I don't give a damn if someone else can't
> read.
_
Obviously *YOU* can't read.
> I proved you wrong.
_
You haven't read the results of the Avalon project. That
disproves your repeater argument. Either you're just plain
stupid or you're trolling. Either way, your crap is debunked
and there's no rationale that makes it worth my while
continuing this discussion with someone repetitively
spewing lunatic ideologies.
purple
> Treaty of Tripoly? You're going to deny that?
Tripoli.
If you're actually interested in the topic, read the
reports from the Avalon project at the Yale Law School.
I know you won't because you're an idiot and a troll.
Like so many other nasty things do, dry up and blow away.
*us*
>... haven't read the results of the Avalon project...
If you had, you'd know it doesn't show that the USA
would be a Christian nation at all.
Lookout
>Lookout repeats the idiots mantre :
>
>> Treaty of Tripoly? You're going to deny that?
>
>Tripoli.
>
>If you're actually interested in the topic, read the
>reports from the Avalon project at the Yale Law School.
I have read it. And I don't need anyone to interpret if for me. The
words easy to understand:
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in
any sense, founded on the Christian religion;
Please tell us what part of that you're having problems understanding.
>
>I know you won't because you're an idiot and a troll.
Nah..you're the typical conservative who, like bush, can't admit when
you're wrong.
>
>Like so many other nasty things do, dry up and blow away.
I love fucking with stupid people. You're going to keep me laughing
for months before you get so frustrated you give up.
Lookout
No it doesn't at all. It's wrong. Period.
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in
any sense, founded on the Christian religion;
Please tell us what words there are giving you problems and we'll see
if we can help you.
Sid9
"Lookout" <mrLo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2crcj51k64jv81etr...@4ax.com...
Our founders were all people who were unhappy with the established church of
England that put the head of government at the head of the church.
In NO way did our founders want anything like that.
They were of many sects and religions and found established religion
repugnant.
Therefore, our founding documents and the subsequent history of our country
had a clear separation of religion and government.
Anything to the contrary is pure and unadulterated bullshit
Rob Kleinschmidt
> Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in
> any sense, founded on the Christian religion;
>
> Please tell us what words there are giving you problems and we'll see
> if we can help you.
He's questioning whether the same language appeared
in the **Arabic** version of the treaty.
Some people point out a discrepancy between the English
and Arabic versions in the hope that if the words don't
also appear in the Arabic version, this might somehow
invalidate the English words in the ratified Senate document.
Does this all make sense now ?
Not to me either.
purple
> On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:08:17 -0600, purple <pur...@colorme.com> wrote:
>
>> Lookout repeats the idiots mantre :
>>
>>> Treaty of Tripoly? You're going to deny that?
>> Tripoli.
>>
>> If you're actually interested in the topic, read the
>> reports from the Avalon project at the Yale Law School.
>
> I have read it. And I don't need anyone to interpret if for me. The
> words easy to understand:
> Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in
> any sense, founded on the Christian religion;
You have *not* read the report from the Avalon project.
The above, and the rest of what you say is crap. You're
a troll.
purple
Disagreeing once you've done the necessary homework gets
us a lot closer to being able to rationally discuss the
topic.
S'mee
Except you are neither correct nor rational...
Lookout
What part of that are you having problems with?
Or are you just trying to be stupid?
Lookout
The only version I'm interested in is the one voted on UNAMOMOUSLY by
the US Senate and signed by President Adams.
purple
> Except you are neither correct nor rational...
End of discussion then.
purple
plonk
*us*
>Violent jihad is not an incidental feature of Islam or a by-product of
>its recent history; it is a duty, written into the Koran.
You have no knowledge of the Koran.
"Koran a Book of Peace, Not War, Scholars Say"
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/09/0925_TVkoran.html
Don't swallow the lies of the terrorists Bush and Cheney.
They despise you and abuse you.
>... Christianity has become a civilized participant in
Slavery?
Lynchings?
Nazism?
The illegal invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq?
Morton Davis
"Sid9" <si...@belsouth.net> wrote in message
news:hh5rbu$88q$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
need apply. They were no better than Europeans as to religious tolerance.
That was one of the main reasons the founders didn't want a state religion.
AHAHAHAHAAHHA
HAHAHAAH
When cornered with the truth he runs like a little girl. Just like
klaus and gummer!
AHAHAHAHAAHHA
And you lost. Badly.
I proved you wrong, asshole. I proved the Founding Father's said this
nation was NOT founded on christianity. And what happens? You run
away.
HAHAHAA You fucking little punk.
Sid9
Treaties supersede the constitution.
Sid9
"Morton Davis" <anti...@go.com> wrote in message
news:wYydnWps2IR8d6vW...@mchsi.com...
They certainly did not want the same setup that England had where the king
was the head of the Anglican official (established) church.
Religious Affiliation of U.S. Founding Fathers
Episcopalian/Anglican 88 54.7%
Presbyterian 30 18.6%
Congregationalist 27 16.8%
Quaker 7 4.3%
Dutch Reformed/German Reformed
6 3.7%
Lutheran 5 3.1%
Catholic 3 1.9%
Huguenot 3 1.9%
Unitarian 3 1.9%
Methodist 2 1.2%
Calvinist 1 0.6%
None wanted the to be dominated by an established religion.
An established religion represented the King of England.
Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson were listed as deists.
They were clear in using the word "creator" rather then the secular name of
any of the gods of their time.
Interesting, no Baptists...did that sect exist?
Lookout
wrote:
Agreed. The Founding Fathers were educated men who understood the
puritans were as wrong as the English when it comes to religion in
government. That's why the FEDERAL government was clearly
non-religious but most states were founded with a religion clause in
their constitutions. Most states REQURIED a stated religion to run for
office.
Lookout
<terml...@democracy.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 09:00:44 -0600, Lookout <mrLo...@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 23:03:46 -0600, purple <pur...@colorme.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Lookout wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 15:48:22 -0500, * US * wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 08:31:10 -0800 (PST), BruceS <bruc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Dec 24, 7:40 am, Mitchell Holman <noemailple...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> BruceS <bruce...@hotmail.com> wrote innews:c5975880-2611-4eff...@27g2000yqr.googlegroups.com:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Unfortunately, religion is a necessary element
>>>>>>>> of society, and conflict is inevitable.
>>>>>>> What makes religion "necessary"?
>>>>>> ... it fills a
>>>>>> void in most people's lives.
>>>>> Not necessarily.
>>>>>
>>>>>> ...Religion gives people a set of principles to live by, without
>>>>>> which they act savagely and disrupt society...
>>>>> That's false.
>>>>>
>>>>> Plenty of people are decent and abide by societal
>>>>> rules, without religion. [The Bible mentions that.]
>>>>>
>>>>>> When a religion serves
>>>>>> to encourage savage behavior, as
>>>>> Christianity sure does.
>>>>>
>>>>>> ... it
>>>>>> generally encourages behaviors that benefit society ...
>>>>> Why do you hold that belief?
>>>>
>>>> According to our Founding Fathers this country was NOT founded on
>>>> christian principals and you certainly can't call what the
>>>> conservatives take credit for "christian" by any stretch of the
>>>> imagination.
>>>
>>>I'm sure you're an expert on this stuff, aren't you?
>>
>>Treaty of Tripoly Article 11
>>Initiated by Washington, signed by Adams and voted on UNAMOMOUSLY by
>>the US Senate.
>>
>>Expert? Nah..I just know enough to prove my point.
>
>
>Except for the spelling. (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
Ya...he had to find something to whine about when he lost the augment
Rob Kleinschmidt
> On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 11:40:55 -0500, E. Barry Bruyea
> >wrote:
> >>Treaty of Tripoly Article 11
> >>Initiated by Washington, signed by Adams and voted on UNAMOMOUSLY by
> >>the US Senate.
>
> >>Expert? Nah..I just know enough to prove my point.
>
> >Except for the spelling. (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
>
> Ya...he had to find something to whine about when he lost the augment
That there spelling made me wince too, though I'm
always way too polite to ever point out such things.
Hiccum Blurpaedius
wrote:
> Lookout <mrLook...@yahoo.com> wrote innews:mbf8j5pne8dvnediu...@4ax.com:
> Fathers. Just ask them.
>
> "The Constitution established the United States of
> America as a Christian nation"
> John McCain, June 5 2008. The Constitution in fact
> makes no mention of God or of Jesus or any religion
> whatsoever.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9izhjnaLa3M
think you should be executed as a traitor.
exterminate god god dammit
*us*
>Shows what you know ...
We know there was no valid, legal basis for the Bush/Cheney war crimes.
>... facists [sic] bastards ...
There's no doubt that Bush and Cheney are no less corporatists than the
Bush family idol Hitler or Mussolini.
Lookout
If you have to stoop to picky spelling mistakes you're admitting
you're lost the augment.
Rob Kleinschmidt
> On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 17:34:03 -0800 (PST), Rob Kleinschmidt
> >That there spelling made me wince too, though I'm
> >always way too polite to ever point out such things.
>
> If you have to stoop to picky spelling mistakes you're admitting
> you're lost the augment.
Much of your argument I've already agreed with, so
it's not about winning or losing an argument.
I'm merely pointing out that your spelling really sucks.
Why would you believe I'm arguing ?
S'mee
>
> - Show quoted text -
Really? Seems to me fruitcake you lost it years ago. Not to mention
all the bullshit you've been spewing.
Lookout
I was referring to the idiot who claimed they never said that.
Lookout
S'mee
>
> - Show quoted text -
Oh I'm so hurt FRUIT CAKE! Matter of fact your mom wears combat boots
and your dad wears a skirt!
sleazy
You're going to miss out on a lot of entertainment doing that. Keith's
a decent sort, but don't tell him I said so. ;)
--
sleazy
2001 BMW R1150GS
1988 Honda XR600R
1996 Triumph Daytona 1200
Lookout
>On 2009-12-29 00:40:31 -0500, Lookout <mrLo...@yahoo.com> said:
>
>> On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 20:28:35 -0800 (PST), "S'mee"
>> <steven...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Really? Seems to me fruitcake you lost it years ago. Not to mention
>>> all the bullshit you've been spewing.
>
>> X-Complaints-To: groups...@google.com
>> 'Welcome to my filter
>
>You're going to miss out on a lot of entertainment doing that. Keith's
>a decent sort, but don't tell him I said so. ;)
To be honest I go delete my filter list ever 3 or 4 months (it gets so
full of subjects) and start all over again. Most trolls nym shift
constantly so it does little good anyways.
S'mee
> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 16:43:15 -0500, sleazy <n...@nil.net> wrote:
> >On 2009-12-29 00:40:31 -0500, Lookout <mrLook...@yahoo.com> said:
>
> >> On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 20:28:35 -0800 (PST), "S'mee"
> >> <stevenkei...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> Really? Seems to me fruitcake you lost it years ago. Not to mention
> >>> all the bullshit you've been spewing.
>
> >> 'Welcome to my filter
>
> >You're going to miss out on a lot of entertainment doing that. Keith's
> >a decent sort, but don't tell him I said so. ;)
>
> To be honest I go delete my filter list ever 3 or 4 months (it gets so
> full of subjects) and start all over again. Most trolls nym shift
> constantly so it does little good anyways.
and I should care WHY? You are an IDIOT of the first order...your
opinion means less than a gnats fart.
S'mee
> On 2009-12-29 00:40:31 -0500, Lookout <mrLook...@yahoo.com> said:
>
> > On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 20:28:35 -0800 (PST), "S'mee"
> > <stevenkei...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> Really? Seems to me fruitcake you lost it years ago. Not to mention
> >> all the bullshit you've been spewing.
> > 'Welcome to my filter
>
> You're going to miss out on a lot of entertainment doing that. Keith's
> a decent sort,
bullshit...I'm a loud mouthed asshole that really does say exactly
what I think. Thinking being the operative word...there's too many
morons that don't think they just parrot.
*us*
>"The men responsible for building the foundation of the United States
>had little use for Christianity, and many were strongly opposed to it.
>They were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity"
> VERY TRUE.
>
>Read my article on "Jefferson did not go far enough. He had the
>Koran." Jefferson was not trying to become a Muslim. He wanted to
>know what "Human System" is suitable for a country whose people flew
>out of their homeland to avoid religious persecution, poverty and lack
>of opportunity.
Thanks for the reference.
Is your article on a website or a newsgroup?
>On Dec 25 2009, 7:30�am, * US * wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 09:15:16 -0600, poople the stoopid <poo...@colorme.stoopid.com> wrote:
>>
>> >...can't even spell ...
>>
>> Your stupidity goes far beyond that, stoopid poople.
>>
>> "The men responsible for building the foundation of the United States
>> had little use for Christianity, and many were strongly opposed to it.
>> They were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity"
>>
>> http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html