Reality and the Waco Situation
Mildred Pierce
Nokosugi <noko...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:37DE7CDD...@hotmail.com...
> Exactly! Those wacky Davidians made their bed, and when they were forced
to
> lie in it, people started blaming the government. Sometimes I wish our
> government was a little bit more ruthless when it comes to matters like
> Waco.
Just like those wacky and pesky citizens of Lexington and Concord who dared
to stand up to Government agents who came to steal their guns one early
April 19th.. Hey, thats starting to sound a lot like Waco..
--
Mildred Pierce -- mildre...@popamericana.com
http://mp3.com/mildredpierce -- http://popamericana.com
http://anarchanon.cjb.net -- icq# 30816451
Mildred Pierce
Yankee33 <Yank...@5iron.com> wrote in message
news:7rmi2f$7g9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <37DE7F40...@bainbridge.net>,
> Joe Long <joe...@bainbridge.net> wrote:
> > If this is how you truely feel... then I hope you and your's are the
> players in
> > the next Waco...
>
>
> I'm sorry that you don't have the capacity to weigh both sides of a
> situation without wishing people dead when they don't share your point
> of view. "Me" and "Mine" won't be starting a child molesting,
> brainwashing cult anytime soon. I must be doing something right because
> Zog, The Man and his buddy, The Gubbmint, aren't spying on me. Can you
> say the same?
But you might forget to pay some taxes.. after all that is what those
Federal agents were doing there that warm winter day.. Being a "child
molesting" (thats bullshit, no proof) brainwashing cult (cult? what is
that?) isn't going to get you in trouble with the Federal Government..
Lucifer
Mildred Pierce wrote in message ...
>
>Yankee33 <Yank...@5iron.com> wrote in message
>news:7rmi2f$7g9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>> In article <37DE7F40...@bainbridge.net>,
>> Joe Long <joe...@bainbridge.net> wrote:
>> > If this is how you truely feel... then I hope you and your's are the
>> players in
>> > the next Waco...
>>
>>
>> I'm sorry that you don't have the capacity to weigh both sides of a
>> situation without wishing people dead when they don't share your point
>> of view. "Me" and "Mine" won't be starting a child molesting,
>> brainwashing cult anytime soon. I must be doing something right because
>> Zog, The Man and his buddy, The Gubbmint, aren't spying on me. Can you
>> say the same?
>
>But you might forget to pay some taxes.. after all that is what those
>Federal agents were doing there that warm winter day.. Being a "child
>molesting" (thats bullshit, no proof) brainwashing cult (cult? what is
>that?) isn't going to get you in trouble with the Federal Government..
There is nothing credible to say that the atf was there to collect taxes.
And why dont you write, or phone the childrens health serveses in Waco and
ask them yourselves what thier imressions of child molestation was?
familyvalues
news:oqGD3.982$cz.3...@news2.mia...
>
> Yankee33 <Yank...@5iron.com> wrote in message
> news:7rmi2f$7g9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > In article <37DE7F40...@bainbridge.net>,
> > Joe Long <joe...@bainbridge.net> wrote:
> > > If this is how you truely feel... then I hope you and your's are the
> > players in
> > > the next Waco...
> >
> >
> > I'm sorry that you don't have the capacity to weigh both sides of a
> > situation without wishing people dead when they don't share your point
> > of view. "Me" and "Mine" won't be starting a child molesting,
> > brainwashing cult anytime soon. I must be doing something right because
> > Zog, The Man and his buddy, The Gubbmint, aren't spying on me. Can you
> > say the same?
>
> But you might forget to pay some taxes.. after all that is what those
> Federal agents were doing there that warm winter day.. Being a "child
> molesting" (thats bullshit, no proof) brainwashing cult (cult? what is
> that?) isn't going to get you in trouble with the Federal Government..
Maybe you can tell Keri Jewell she's full of shit too along with all the
other parents who did come forward? Look up "cult" in any Webster's. Get
enlightened.....
familyvalues
Sparks, Texas Department of Human Services, Waco, Texas had this to say
about it:
Special Agent Torres told me that Ms. Sparks received a complaint from
outside the State of Texas that David Koresh was operating a commune-type
compound and that he was sexually abusing young girls.
Ms. Sparks stated that on February 27, 1992, she, along with two other
employees of the Texas Dept. of Human Services, and two McClennan County
Sheriff's deputies responded to the complaint. They went to the Mt. Carmel
Center compound, located east of Waco in McClennan County. When they arrived
at the compound they were met by a lady who identified herself as Rachel
Koresh, the wife of David Koresh.
Mrs. Koresh was reluctant to talk with Ms. Sparks because David Koresh was
not there. She had strict orders from him not to talk with anyone unless he
was present. Ms. Sparks finally was able to convince Mrs. Koresh to allow
her to talk with some of the children who were present. She talked to a
young boy about 7 or 8 years old. The child said that he could not wait to
grow up and be a man. When Ms. Sparks asked him why he was in such a hurry
to grow up he replied that when he grew up he would get a "long gun" just
like all the other men there. When Ms. Sparks pursued the subject the boy
told her that all the adults had guns and that they were always practicing
with them.
Ms. Sparks also told Special Agent Torres that she was escorted through part
of the building where she noted a lot of construction being performed. She
also said that she could not determine how many people were in the group but
estimated about 60-70 people there including men, women and children. She
stated that she saw about 15-20 adult males there.
Ms. Sparks also said that on April 6, 1992, she visited the compound again.
On this occasion she talked with David Koresh. She asked Koresh about the
firearms which she had been told by the small child. Koresh admitted that
there were a few firearms there, but said that most of the adults did not
know of them, and there were too few to be of any significance. Ms. Sparks
said that when she pressed Koresh about the firearms and their location at
the compound, he offered to show her around. He requested that she wait
about 30 minutes until he could get the other residents out of the building
so they would not see where he had the firearms stored. After a period of
time, Ms. Sparks was escorted through part of the building by Koresh. She
noted that there was more construction activity and that the inside of the
structure looked quite different from her previous visit. Each time Ms.
Sparks asked Koresh about the location of the firearms, he would tell her
that they were in a safe place where the children could not get to them. He
would then change the subject.
Ms. Sparks said that she noticed a trap door in the floor at one end of the
building. When she inquired about it, Koresh allowed her to look into the
trap door. She could see a ladder leading down into a buried school bus from
which all the seats had been removed. At one end of the bus she could see a
very large refrigerator with numerous bullet holes. She also saw three long
guns lying on the floor of the bus, however, she did not know the make or
caliber of them. She stated that there was no electricity in the bus.
Everything she saw was with the aid of a pen light. When questioned by Ms.
Sparks, Koresh said that the bus was where he practiced his target shooting
in order not to disturb his neighbors.
Ms. Sparks felt the entire walk through the compound was staged for her by
Koresh. When she asked to speak with some of the children and other
residents, Koresh refused, stating they were not available.
She said that during her conversation with Koresh, he told her that he was
the "Messenger" from God, that the world was coming to an end, and that when
he "reveals" himself the riots in Los Angeles would pale in comparison to
what was going to happen in Waco, Texas. Koresh stated that it would be a
"military type
operation" and that all the "non-believers" would have to suffer.
On December 12, 1992, I interviewed Jeannine Bunds, the mother of Robyn and
David Bunds. She told me that she was a former member of Howell's group in
Waco, Texas, having left there in September, 1991. She is a registered nurse
and was working in that capacity at the Good Samaritan Hospital, Los
Angeles, California. While at Howell's commune in Waco, she participated in
live fire shooting exercises conducted by Howell. She saw several long guns
there, some of which she described as AK-47 rifles. Mrs. Bunds described the
weapon to me and was able to identify an AK-47 from among a number of
photographs of firearms shown to her by me. I believe that she is well able
to identify an AK-47. In July of 1991 she saw Howell shooting a machine gun
on the back portion of the commune property. She knew it was a machine gun
because it functioned with a very rapid fire and would tear up the ground
when Howell shot it. Mrs. Bunds also told me that Howell had fathered at
least fifteen children from various women and young girls at the compound.
Some of the girls who had babies fathered by Howell were as young as 12
years old. She had personally delivered 7 of these children.
According to Ms. Bunds, Howell annuls all marriages of couples who join his
cult. He then has exclusive sexual access to the women. He also, according
to Mrs. Bunds, has regular sexual relations with young girls there. The
girls ages are from 11 years old to adulthood.
On January 1 and January 3, 1993, Mrs. Poia Vaega, of Mangere, Auckland, New
Zealand, was interviewed telephonically by Resident Agent in Charge Bill
Buford, BATF, Little Rock Arkansas, who also is assisting me in this
investigation. The results of Special Agent Buford's interview on January 1,
1993, was reduced to writing and furnished to me. Special Agent Buford's
interview on January 3, 1993, was tape recorded with the permission of Poia
Vaega and has since been transcribed and typewritten. Both the tape
recording and the transcription was furnished to me by Special Agent Buford.
Both interviews with Poia Vaega revealed a false imprisonment for a term of
three and a half months which began in June of 1991 and physical and sexual
abuse of one of Mrs. Vaega's sisters, Doreen Saipaia. This was while she was
a member of the Branch Davidian at the Mt. Carmel Center, Waco, Texas. The
physical and sexual abuse was done by Vernon Wayne Howell and Stanley
Sylvia, a close follower of Howell, on several occasions.
It was learned From Mrs. Vaega that she and her husband Leslie were also
members of Howell's group in Waco for a short period of time in March, 1990.
Upon their arrival at Mt. Carmel Center, she and her husband were separated
and not allowed to sleep together or have any sexual contact.
According to Mrs. Vaega, all the girls and women at the compound were
exclusively reserved for Howell. She stated that Howell would preach his
philosophy, which did not always coincide with the bible, for hours at a
time. She and her husband left the compound after ten days because her
husband did not agree with Howell's doctrine but that her two sisters stayed
behind.
Kiri said that she slept with Koresh and her mother in one bed. She recalled
a childhood friend who, at the age of 14, "has a baby for David".
There was an uneasy silence in the congressional chamber as Kiri began to
talk of her first sexual encounter with the cult leader at a motel in Waco
when she was 10.
He asked her to sit beside him on a bed. "He kissed me. I just sat there,
but he then laid me down," she said. After committing a sex act, he
instructed her to take a shower and then read from the Bible. Close to
tears, Kiri said: "He sat on the bed and read the Song of Solomon."
Recounting more of her sexual initiation, she said that he used Biblical
quotations to explain himself. He told her that, "King David from the Bible
would sleep with young virgins to keep him warm."
She said: "I had known this would happen sometime, so I just laid there and
stared at the ceiling. I was 10 when this happened."
Robyn Bunds, 23, a former cult member, said Howell told the story as if he
found it amusing - saying that the girl thought he was getting in bed with
her to get warm.
"That's what he said. When he tried to pull down her panties, she tired to
get him not to," Bunds said. "She was 12 years old. She trusted him. He's
her sister's husband. She was 12. I remember being 12. She resisted, but he
kept on going because he said Gold told him to."
The girl gave birth in February 1989 to a daughter. By then, she was
fourteen years old. The space on the birth certificate for naming the father
is blank. A dozen of Howell's former followers, including one of the girl's
brothers, insist that because Howell is the baby's father. Howell denies
the accusation.
He claims to have only two children in the cult, Cyrus and Star, whose
mother is Rachel Howell is was 14 years old when a 24-year old Howell
married her in 1984.
Branch Davidian women, however, have left a trail of birth certificates
listing no father. Former cult members - including Bunds, who says Howell is
the father of her son, Shaun - said that's because Howell fathered the
children.
In addition, McLennan County records show no birth certificates for many
children whom former cult members said have been born to Branch Davidian
women since the late 1980's. A former cult member once registered as a
midwife in McLennan County said she delivered twin girls in 1991 to a young
Branch Davidian woman living at Mount Carmel. The midwife said Howell
ordered her not to register the babies with local officials, a violation of
state law.
Former cult members - in some cases, relatives the women involved - say
Howell restricted the filing of birth certificates out of fear that
authorities would chart the number of babies born at Mount Carmel with a
known father and focus unwanted attention on the Branch Davidians.
These are just a "few", Mildred. I'm sure you'll have an excuse for Vern
though.
Mildred Pierce <mildre...@popamericana.com> wrote in message
news:oqGD3.982$cz.3...@news2.mia...
>
> Yankee33 <Yank...@5iron.com> wrote in message
> news:7rmi2f$7g9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > In article <37DE7F40...@bainbridge.net>,
> > Joe Long <joe...@bainbridge.net> wrote:
> > > If this is how you truely feel... then I hope you and your's are the
> > players in
> > > the next Waco...
> >
> >
> > I'm sorry that you don't have the capacity to weigh both sides of a
> > situation without wishing people dead when they don't share your point
> > of view. "Me" and "Mine" won't be starting a child molesting,
> > brainwashing cult anytime soon. I must be doing something right because
> > Zog, The Man and his buddy, The Gubbmint, aren't spying on me. Can you
> > say the same?
>
> But you might forget to pay some taxes.. after all that is what those
> Federal agents were doing there that warm winter day.. Being a "child
> molesting" (thats bullshit, no proof) brainwashing cult (cult? what is
> that?) isn't going to get you in trouble with the Federal Government..
> --
Doug Smith
>
> Mildred Pierce <mildre...@popamericana.com> wrote in message
> news:oqGD3.982$cz.3...@news2.mia...
> >
> > Yankee33 <Yank...@5iron.com> wrote in message
> > news:7rmi2f$7g9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > > In article <37DE7F40...@bainbridge.net>,
> > > Joe Long <joe...@bainbridge.net> wrote:
> > > > If this is how you truely feel... then I hope you and your's are the
> > > players in
> > > > the next Waco...
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm sorry that you don't have the capacity to weigh both sides of a
> > > situation without wishing people dead when they don't share your point
> > > of view. "Me" and "Mine" won't be starting a child molesting,
> > > brainwashing cult anytime soon. I must be doing something right because
> > > Zog, The Man and his buddy, The Gubbmint, aren't spying on me. Can you
> > > say the same?
> >
> > But you might forget to pay some taxes.. after all that is what those
> > Federal agents were doing there that warm winter day.. Being a "child
> > molesting" (thats bullshit, no proof) brainwashing cult (cult? what is
> > that?) isn't going to get you in trouble with the Federal Government..
> > --
>
> other parents who did come forward? Look up "cult" in any Webster's. Get
> enlightened.....
>
You mean the Kiri Jewell who's grandma claims that
the girl was in California when Koresh was supposedly
raping her?
Koresh may have been screwing everyone at Mt Carmel, but we
will never know, will we? The FBI killed all the witnesses
and buldozed the site, destroying all the evidence. Gee,
I wonder why?
> > Mildred Pierce -- mildre...@popamericana.com
> > http://mp3.com/mildredpierce -- http://popamericana.com
> > http://anarchanon.cjb.net -- icq# 30816451
> >
> >
--
doug
--
No truce with Kings.
laura key
far
as I can overthrow it!
-----------------------------------------------
familyvalues
news:37DF9F3A...@tacnet.missouri.org...
> > other parents who did come forward? Look up "cult" in any Webster's.
Get
> > enlightened.....
> >
>
> You mean the Kiri Jewell who's grandma claims that
> the girl was in California when Koresh was supposedly
> raping her?
>
> Koresh may have been screwing everyone at Mt Carmel, but we
> will never know, will we? The FBI killed all the witnesses
> and buldozed the site, destroying all the evidence. Gee,
> I wonder why?
>
Funny. I look at is as Vern killing the kids so no one would discover just
what kind of sick pedophile he was, and his brainwashed followers followed
him as well. I do wonder why indeed.
> > > Mildred Pierce -- mildre...@popamericana.com
> > > http://mp3.com/mildredpierce -- http://popamericana.com
> > > http://anarchanon.cjb.net -- icq# 30816451
> > >
> > >
>
familyvalues
right?
laura key <k...@ti.com> wrote in message news:37DFBEBA...@ti.com...
Mildred Pierce
Lucifer <for...@pandemonium.hel> wrote in message
news:4LGD3.15897$x17.2...@news1.rdc1.ab.home.com...
>
> Mildred Pierce wrote in message ...
> >
> >news:7rmi2f$7g9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> >> In article <37DE7F40...@bainbridge.net>,
> >> Joe Long <joe...@bainbridge.net> wrote:
> >> > If this is how you truely feel... then I hope you and your's are the
> >> players in
> >> > the next Waco...
> >>
> >>
> >> I'm sorry that you don't have the capacity to weigh both sides of a
> >> situation without wishing people dead when they don't share your point
> >> of view. "Me" and "Mine" won't be starting a child molesting,
> >> brainwashing cult anytime soon. I must be doing something right because
> >> Zog, The Man and his buddy, The Gubbmint, aren't spying on me. Can you
> >> say the same?
> >
> >But you might forget to pay some taxes.. after all that is what those
> >Federal agents were doing there that warm winter day.. Being a "child
> >molesting" (thats bullshit, no proof) brainwashing cult (cult? what is
> >that?) isn't going to get you in trouble with the Federal Government..
>
>
> And why dont you write, or phone the childrens health serveses in Waco and
> ask them yourselves what thier imressions of child molestation was?
They found that there was no basis for those allegations
Mildred Pierce
familyvalues <family...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:xbMD3.5286$Ud2.1...@typhoon1.rdc-detw.rr.com...
> Mildred Pierce <mildre...@popamericana.com> wrote in message
> news:oqGD3.982$cz.3...@news2.mia...
> >
> > news:7rmi2f$7g9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > > In article <37DE7F40...@bainbridge.net>,
> > > Joe Long <joe...@bainbridge.net> wrote:
> > > > If this is how you truely feel... then I hope you and your's are the
> > > players in
> > > > the next Waco...
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm sorry that you don't have the capacity to weigh both sides of a
> > > situation without wishing people dead when they don't share your point
> > > of view. "Me" and "Mine" won't be starting a child molesting,
> > > brainwashing cult anytime soon. I must be doing something right
because
> > > Zog, The Man and his buddy, The Gubbmint, aren't spying on me. Can you
> > > say the same?
> >
> > But you might forget to pay some taxes.. after all that is what those
> > Federal agents were doing there that warm winter day.. Being a "child
> > molesting" (thats bullshit, no proof) brainwashing cult (cult? what is
> > that?) isn't going to get you in trouble with the Federal Government..
>
> Maybe you can tell Keri Jewell she's full of shit too along with all the
> other parents who did come forward? Look up "cult" in any Webster's. Get
> enlightened.....
Well.. her own grandmother said she was full of shit, so I wouldn't hesitate
to say the same thing.. and "other parents"? what other parents? names:
Look up "proof" in any Webster's... Get enlightened...
the_honeycomb_kid
ex-Davidian, and one by an ex-husband trying to get full custody of
his daughter. Both cases were investigated by CPS. No charges were
filed. No children were removed. No arrests were made. The Justice
Department said there was no evidence of child abuse at the "compound"
during the siege, and not enough evidence to arrest Koresh on such
charges before the raid.
It's bogus.
Mark Balcom
>
> Lucifer <for...@pandemonium.hel> wrote in message
> news:4LGD3.15897$x17.2...@news1.rdc1.ab.home.com..
> >
> > >
> > >> Joe Long <joe...@bainbridge.net> wrote:
> > >> > If this is how you truely feel... then I hope you and your's are the
> > >> players in
> > >> > the next Waco...
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I'm sorry that you don't have the capacity to weigh both sides of a
> > >> situation without wishing people dead when they don't share your point
> > >> of view. "Me" and "Mine" won't be starting a child molesting,
> > >> brainwashing cult anytime soon. I must be doing something right because
> > >> Zog, The Man and his buddy, The Gubbmint, aren't spying on me. Can you
> > >> say the same?
> > >
> > >But you might forget to pay some taxes.. after all that is what those
> > >Federal agents were doing there that warm winter day.. Being a "child
> > >molesting" (thats bullshit, no proof) brainwashing cult (cult? what is
> > >that?) isn't going to get you in trouble with the Federal Government..
> >
> >
> > And why dont you write, or phone the childrens health serveses in Waco and
> > ask them yourselves what thier imressions of child molestation was?
>
> They found that there was no basis for those allegations
And the automatic weapons claim involved transfer taxes.
Too bad that so many liberals know so little about what they choose to
discuss.
Keep up the good work, Mildred.
Mark
familyvalues
news:37e008dc...@news.mindspring.com...
> Two allegations of child abuse were made, one by a disgruntled
> ex-Davidian, and one by an ex-husband trying to get full custody of
> his daughter. Both cases were investigated by CPS. No charges were
> filed. No children were removed. No arrests were made. The Justice
> Department said there was no evidence of child abuse at the "compound"
> during the siege, and not enough evidence to arrest Koresh on such
> charges before the raid.
>
> It's bogus.
>
Not quite.
On December 7, 1992, I spoke with Special Agent Carlos Torres, BATF,
Houston, Texas, who had been assisting me in a portion of this
investigation. He related to me the results of his interview on December 4,
1992, with Joyce Sparks, Texas Department of Human Services, Waco, Texas.
> "Mildred Pierce" <mildre...@popamericana.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > familyvalues <family...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:xbMD3.5286$Ud2.1...@typhoon1.rdc-detw.rr.com...
> > > Mildred Pierce <mildre...@popamericana.com> wrote in message
> > > news:oqGD3.982$cz.3...@news2.mia...
> > > >
> > > > Yankee33 <Yank...@5iron.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:7rmi2f$7g9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > > > > In article <37DE7F40...@bainbridge.net>,
> > > > > Joe Long <joe...@bainbridge.net> wrote:
> > > > > > If this is how you truely feel... then I hope you and your's are
the
> > > > > players in
> > > > > > the next Waco...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm sorry that you don't have the capacity to weigh both sides
of a
> > > > > situation without wishing people dead when they don't share your
point
> > > > > of view. "Me" and "Mine" won't be starting a child molesting,
> > > > > brainwashing cult anytime soon. I must be doing something right
> > because
> > > > > Zog, The Man and his buddy, The Gubbmint, aren't spying on me. Can
you
> > > > > say the same?
> > > >
> > > > But you might forget to pay some taxes.. after all that is what thos
e
> > > > Federal agents were doing there that warm winter day.. Being a
"child
> > > > molesting" (thats bullshit, no proof) brainwashing cult (cult? what
is
> > > > that?) isn't going to get you in trouble with the Federal
Government..
Mark Balcom
>
> I bet you believe in the tooth fairy also!! I believe the government about as
> far
> as I can overthrow it!
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
"Family values" should never post to a thread with the word "reality" in
its title.
Mark
> > > Yankee33 <Yank...@5iron.com> wrote in message
> > > news:7rmi2f$7g9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com..
familyvalues
>
> familyvalues <family...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:xbMD3.5286$Ud2.1...@typhoon1.rdc-detw.rr.com...
> > > > In article <37DE7F40...@bainbridge.net>,
> > > > Joe Long <joe...@bainbridge.net> wrote:
> > > > > If this is how you truely feel... then I hope you and your's are
the
> > > > players in
> > > > > the next Waco...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I'm sorry that you don't have the capacity to weigh both sides of
a
> > > > situation without wishing people dead when they don't share your
point
> > > > of view. "Me" and "Mine" won't be starting a child molesting,
> > > > brainwashing cult anytime soon. I must be doing something right
> because
> > > > Zog, The Man and his buddy, The Gubbmint, aren't spying on me. Can
you
> > > > say the same?
> > >
> > > But you might forget to pay some taxes.. after all that is what those
> > > Federal agents were doing there that warm winter day.. Being a "child
> > > molesting" (thats bullshit, no proof) brainwashing cult (cult? what is
> > > that?) isn't going to get you in trouble with the Federal Government..
> > > --
> >
> > other parents who did come forward? Look up "cult" in any Webster's.
Get
> > enlightened.....
>
> Well.. her own grandmother said she was full of shit, so I wouldn't
hesitate
> to say the same thing.. and "other parents"? what other parents? names:
> Look up "proof" in any Webster's... Get enlightened...
>
you get "enlightened".
An eight-month Waco Tribune-Herald investigation that involved numerous
interviews with Breault and more than 20 other former cult members and a
review of court records and statements to law enforcement officials revealed
complaints that Howell:
abused children physically and psychologically;
boasted of having sex with underage girls in the cult;
and had at least 15 so-called "wives."
Authorities have not acted on the complaints. Some officials said former
cult members making the allegations have not appeared in person to swear out
a complaint against Howell, though they have mailed sworn statements to
local, state and federal authorities. Other officials said they needed
evidence, not allegations.
Former cult members in Australia pooled their money and hired a private
detective, Geoffrey Hossack, to lodge their complaints with authorities.
Hossack said he believes authorities will act only if someone is killed.
Although many followers fled, Howell remained with about 75 faithful in a
compound they built to await the end of the world. Former cult members and
authorities said it was heavily armed. Guards reportedly walked the grounds
at night. Perched above the compound was a tower with lookout windows facing
all directions.
Howell rules Mount Carmel by virtue of the Branch Davidian's belief that he
alone can open the so-called Seven Seals in the Bible Book of Revelation,
setting loose catastrophic events that the Branch Davidians believe will end
mankind and propel Howell and his followers into heaven.
Former cult members, though, said Howell is headed in the opposite
direction.
They said Howell abuses all his followers, from the very young to adults.
Howell has taught that babies as young as 8month should be whipped
forcefully, former cult members said. Two women said he hit their babies
until their bottoms bled.
Howell banished his then 3-year old son, Cyrus, to a garage in Pomona,
Calif., for the night, said James Tom, a former Branch Davidian. Howell
reportedly told the boy there were rats in the garage who liked to gnaw on
children.
Breault, 29, and two other former cult members testified at a St. Joseph,
Mich., child custody hearing that Howell fashioned a harem from the women in
the cult and turned the men into virtual eunuchs sworn to guard the secret.
Women in the cult make up the so-called House of David, former cult members
testified. The children they produce with Howell supposedly will rule the
earth with him after he and his male followers slay the nonbelievers.
Former cult members said Howell tells the men that they will get their
perfect mates in heaven. Each man's mate will come from his rib, as Eve came
from Adam. On earth, though, all the women, even those married, are meant
for Howell.
The 1992 child custody case in Michigan revolved around the struggle of one
man to prevent his daughter, then 11 years old, from winding up in the
harem.
David Jewell, an Indiana disc jockey who never belonged to the Branch
Davidians, sued his ex-wife, Sherri Jewell, for custody of their daughter,
Kiri.
Former cult members said Sherri Jewell is one of Howell's so-called wives.
Breault; his wife, Elizabeth Baranyai; and Jean Smith, all former cult
members, traveled from Australia to Michigan to testify that Howell had
targeted Kiri Jewell for the House of David, as evidenced by a Star of David
pendant the girl wore around her neck.
Although Kiri Jewell's parents worked out a joint custody agreement, Judge
Ronald Taylor ordered Sherri Jewell never to take Kiri near Howell. David
Jewell said his ex-wife bade their daughter farewell after the trial and
returned to the compound at Mount Carmel. Kiri Jewell remains in Niles,
Mich., with her father.
Howell denies the tale of the harem, but two people unsuccessfully recruited
by the Branch Davidians said Howell spelled out his theology to them.
Karl Hennig, a teacher from Vancouver, British Columbia, who studied with
the cult for two months in 1987, said Howell taught that a jealous world
would eventually crucify him over his numerous wives.
One woman whom Howell tried to recruit said he "blew me away."
"He was supposed to be the son of God," said the woman, who requested
anonymity. "He said God was really lonesome, and he wanted grandchildren. It
was like the Scriptures kind of said it, but they didn't really. It was like
he was giving God grandchildren."
When many of his Australian followers fled home, Howell sent them an audio
tape, which they dubbed The Foundation. The message justified the New Light,
Howell's 1989 declaration that all the women in the world belong to him.
In it, Howell asks the Australians: "Only the Lamb is to be given the job to
raise up the seen of the House of David, isn't he?"
Later in the tape, Howell says to the women, "You have only one seen that
can deliver you from death.There's only one hard-on in this whole universe
that really loves you and wants to say good things about you. Remember May
and God? Yeah? God couldn't make any advances because the world would
misjudge."
Howell does acknowledge that he considers himself to be the Lamb spoken of
in Revelation - whom many Christians believe will unloose the Seven Seals.
Many Bible scholars consider the Lamb to be a synonym for Jesus Christ. So
does Howell.
"If the Bible is true, then I'm Christ," Howell said. "But so what? Look at
2,000 years ago. What's so great about being Christ? A man nailed to the
cross. A man of sorrow acquainted with grief. You know, being Christ ain't
nothing. Know what I mean?.If the Bible is true, I'm Christ. If the Bible is
true. But all I want out of this is for people to be honest this time."
This time, though, Christ is sinful - if you believe Howell. He teaches
that man is too sinful to live up to the perfect standard Christ set, as
recorded in the New Testament. This time, Christ knows sin just like the
rest of us and so offers a new way to salvation - following him through the
Seven Seals.
"God allows men to be born into sin," Howell said. "It is natural for man to
sin. If you're going to be fair, you've got to give man a way out."
Former cult members agree that Howell is sinful, but not that he is Christ.
Breault told the Michigan court, and nine former cult members confirmed in
separate interviews - that Howell talked in Bible studies of having sex with
his wife's 12-year old sister.
Why would anyone join such a group?
Many of Howell's followers are former Seventh-day Adventists. Their faith
allows for end-time prophets. Breault said this means most feel obligated to
hear out anyone who claims to be anointed. Even Howell's critics say he has
spellbinding ability to roam through the Bible, stringing verses together to
support his beliefs.
Former cult members also said Howell uses traditional mind-control
techniques to entrap listeners; putting Branch Davidians through rigorous to
entrap listeners putting Branch Davidians through rigorous daily Bible
studies, some lasting more than 15 hours.
Followers end up awash in Scripture, feeling only Howell has a true
understanding of the Bible. Howell, eventually became their faith, former
cult members said.
Some broke away, summoning enough courage to overcome their doubts and
fears. Many went into hiding. Former Branch Davidians such as Breault and
Bunds, though, speak out against Howell.
Breault, an almost-blind computer programmer in Melbourne, Australia, has
acted as a Moses figure since 1990, crisscrossing the world to lead Branch
Davidians away from the man he followed for three years. He calls Howell a
phony.
Howell depicts Breault as a rival prophet, bent on ousting him - a charge
that Breault, former cult members and mainline Australian Seventh-day
Adventists deny.
"My primary reason for trying to help is the children," Breault said. "They
have no one else to help them. If people say we were stupid, well, that may
be true. But the children aren't."
Howell dismissed the charges from Breault, saying his former followers in
Australia need "a good butt-whipping."
"We're doing what we're doing and nobody's going to stop us," Howell said.
Part 2
The prophet and prophetess, the Lamb of Revelation, the Seven Seals
Marc Breault found what he once thought was salvation in a grocery store off
the campus of Loma Linda University in Southern California.
Breault was stockpiling groceries for his first week of graduate school in
January 1986. His Dallas Cowboys T-shirt caught the attention of an intense,
frail-looking man named Perry Jones.
Jones asked if Breault was from Texas.
No, he was just a fan, Breault told Jones. He had grown up in Hawaii, but he
had followed the Cowboys ever since a Roger Staubach-led Super Bowl win over
the Miami Dolphins in 1972.
Jones struck up a conversation. He told Breault that he was a journalist for
a religious publication in Waco.
Actually, Jones sold perfume for a living. He was a longtime member of the
Branch Davidians, a spinoff of the Seventh-day Adventists with deep roots in
the Waco area. Jones had written for Davidian publications, but he was no
journalist. He was a believer - a believer in Vernon Howell, his son-in-law
and the Branch Davidians' acknowledged prophet and leader.
Jones was in California to recruit followers for Howell.
Loma Linda was fertile ground since the university is run by the Seventh-day
Adventists, a denomination whose members believe prophecy will flourish in
the earth's last day. Their willingness to hear out would-be prophets would
provide a bountiful harvest of followers for Howell.
During that first conversation with Breault, Jones talked about trying to
introduce Adventist doctrine to TV evangelist Jerry Falwall and Jim
Swaggart.
That interested Breault, who at age 22 was seeking a master's degree in
religion. He wanted to be a pastor. Breault had been raised a Catholic but
became a Seventh-day Adventist at age 15 after attending a church-sponsored
camp for the blind, although he had some vision in his left eye.
Breault gave Jones his telephone number.
Jones kept in contact. He soon told Breault that he believed his son-in-law,
Howell, was inspired. Breault, influenced by his religious upbringing,
agreed to hear him out. They met in Loma Linda's graduate student lounge.
Howell's literal interpretation of the Bible, which entailed such beliefs as
taking the phrase "bridge of Christ" to mean an actual woman, intrigued
Breault. So did Howell's proclamation that he had the Seventh Angel's
message, that last message to be delivered to the church. The message,
Breault later learned, was that Howell claim to by Cyrus, a latter-day king
who would lead God's people until the Second Coming of Christ.
Genial, the lanky Breault enjoyed the company of the Branch Davidians. Also,
it was a chance for Breault to play the keyboards in Howell's rock 'n' roll
band.
Breault met wit the Branch Davidians regularly and later that year attended
their Passover services in Palestine, Texas.
He got a crash course in the cult's unorthodox teachings.
Howell told the gathering that God had commanded him to have sex with a
14-year old girl in the cult, according to Breault and other former cult
members,
The girl was hardly a vamp. Former cult member Lisa Gent said that the girl
was not physically developed. Her grandmother described the teenager as a
"simple" person who speaks "in a frail, little-girl voice."
Howell said he approached the girl and told her of God's command, Breault
said. They were to unite and have a child called Shoshonna, who would marry
Cyrus, Howell's son by Rachel, his legal wife.
The two offspring would rule in God's kingdom.
At first, Howell thought God was testing him by telling him to "give seed"
to the girl. He reported crying out, "Mr Rachel, my Cyrus."
But when he heard God repeat his command, Howell said he obeyed, according
to Breault and other former cult members.
It wasn't the first time Howell claimed God had given him a woman.
Jean Berlin Chilson said Howell told her late husband, L. Hartley Berlin, in
about 1980 that God had given their daughter, Sandy, to him. Berlin was
pastor of the Tyler Seventh-day Adventist Church.
"He felt that God wanted him to marry her," Chilson said.
The couple barred Howell from seeing their daughter.
Chilson, who has since remarried and no longer lives in Tyler, said Howell
was always supremely confident while at the Tyler church that he knew God's
will.
"He would act like he knew every sentence of the Bible.to uphold anything he
wanted."
If the revelation about "giving seed" wasn't enough to send a newcomer
packing, Howell, then 26, confirmed that two years earlier he had a sexual
relationship with the cult's then-prophetess, Lois Roden, Breault, said. She
was 67.
Howell reported that God had commanded him to fulfill Isaih 8:3 with Roden,
said Breault and other former cult members.
"And I went unto the prophets; and she conceived, and bare a son. Then said
the Lord to me, Call his name Maher-shalal-hash-baz."
Roden had indeed become pregnant, Howell told the gathering. But Howell
claimed that God caused Roden to miscarry as punishment for giving tithe
money to her adult children, Breault said.
While Roden also thought she had been pregnant, she blamed the miscarriage
on Howell's refusal to share power with her, Breault said.
Breault found the claims by Roden and Howell about the purportedly baby hard
to believe, but Howell's "guts" in standing before his followers and
admitting sexual relationships with a 14-year old girl and a 67-year old
woman persuaded him of Howell's sincerity.
"The way I was look at it then," Breault said, "was that your TV evangelist
pretend to be average, normal people. They keep the bad things in the
closet. When they come out, they fall. But this guy was saying it straight
out.
Breault eventually joined the Branch Davidians in Palestine, the small town
in East Texas where Howell took his followers in 1984 after splitting with
Lois Roden.
Roden died in 1986. In a will later invalidated, she left Mount Carmel, the
Branch Davidians' longtime home 10 miles east of Waco, near the Elk
community, to her son, George. But she left him little else.
Almost all the Branch Davidians lived with Howell.
George Roden was dumbfounded. To him, Howell was just a hippie.
Howell did seem a throwback to the 1960s, with flowing brown hair that
curved gracefully to below the shoulders, wire-rim glasses, a beatific smile
and easy talk of peace and love. Younger Branch Davidians gravitated to
Howell's persona and his passion for rock music. Howell's almost celestial
knowledge of the Bible mystified the older cult members.
For the Branch Davidians, living with their prophet in 8-foot by 12-foot
plywood boxes in Palestine was better than living with George Roden at Mount
Carmel.
Roden had always assumed he would carry on his family tradition of
leadership. But in contrast to Howell, Roden, a large man with a barrel
chest, thick black hair and a menacing presence, came across as rude, clumsy
and confused.
Roden and Howell had lived uneasily at Mount Carmel in the early '90s while
Lois Roden led the Branch Davidians. But when Howell moved in with Lois
Roden, things turned nasty. George Roden accused Howell of raping his
mother. He threatened Howell, a threat Howell took seriously; Roden
sometimes carried a semiautomatic Uzi while making rounds.
Even with his mother dead and her former followers devoted to Howell, Roden
yearned to lead the Branch Davidians. In 1987, he devised a plan to settle
who would be the cult's prophet.
Roden dug up the body of Anna Hughes from the cemetery at Mount Carmel,
storing the casket inside a shed. Roden then issued a challenge to Howell;
The man who raised Hughes from the dead would be the Branch Davidians' true
prophet.
Howell and his followers asked the McLennan County Sheriff's Department to
arrest Roden for corpse abuse.
Officials demanded proof, such as a photograph of Hughes' body.
Howell and seven men, all dressed in camouflage fatigues, sneaked into Mount
Carmel on Nov. 3, 1987, supposedly to take such a photograph. They carried
assault rifles. When daylight came, a shootout ensued. Deputies, notified by
neighbors, broke up the skirmish.
They filed charges of attempted murder against Howell and his followers.
Although the Branch Davidians claimed to be carrying weapons for protection,
they had put 18 bullet holes into the small tree Roden hid behind.
Howell's followers clogged the third floor of the McLennan County Courthouse
for the trial. Most of the women wore dresses to their ankles and blouses
buttoned up to their necks. They clamored around their men during breaks.
Children clung tightly to their mothers.
Roden, the prosecution's chief witness, came to the courtroom straight from
the county jail, where he was serving a six-month sentence for filing legal
motions asking God to inflict AIDS and herpes on Texas Supreme Court judges.
Before the trial started, visiting Judge Herman Fitts asked if there were
any witnesses in the courtroom who needed to be sworn in. No on arose.
Howell's attorney Gary Coker intervened. He turned to Branch Davidians in
the gallery, urging potential witnesses to stand. Again no one got up.
Howell, smiling slightly, then stood.
"It's all right," he said, raising a hand. "You've done nothing wrong.
Stand."
The doubt parted and the witnesses stood.
In his testimony, Roden told of trying to raise Hughes from the dead and
with not a hint of chagrin, admitted ending a prayer, "In the name of George
B. Roden, amen."
The jury acquitted Howell's followers. It could not reach a verdict on
Howell. Charges against him were later dropped.
With Roden in jail, the Branch Davidians settled back into Mount Carmel.
Roden had let it slide. The tiny houses lining the dirt road into the
property had fallen into disrepair. While they ate breakfast, the women
exercise and ran.
Days were devoted to shaping up Mount Carmel.
Nights were devoted to Bible study - and to Howell.
And the nights were long. Howell usually slept until about 2 p.m. There was
not set time for the Bible studies to begin. To Breault, who had become
Howell's confidant, it seemed the studies began when everyone else was
exhausted and Howell was ready to go.
Bible studies sometimes lasted more than 15 hours.
"You don't have time to think," said a former cult member, who fears Howell
and asked not to be named. "He doesn't give you time to think about what
you're doing. It's just bang, bang, bang, bang, bang."
Sometimes, Howell would practice his guitar, at full volume until 2 or 3 in
the morning, then call a Bible study, Lisa Gent remembered.
"On the night of Atonement, we managed to get to bed at 11 p.m.," she said.
"At 1 a.m., Vernon ran through the camp ringing the food bell, making an
awful racket. We had to come and eat, as he himself had not had food that
night. We then were compelled to study with him until 5 a.m."
Howell's influence over the Branch Davidian was eerie. It wasn't as if they
were all idiots. Wayne Martin was an attorney. Don Bunds was an electrical
engineer; his wife, Jeannine, a nurse. Breault would earn a master's degree
in religion in 1988. All, though, pledged allegiance to a man far less
educated than themselves.
Henning, the Vancouver teacher who stayed with the cult for two months in
1987, found Howell quick-witted and the holder of "truly amazing
accumulation of knowledge."
In the daily Bible studies, Howell spoke rapid-fire, and Hennig found his
message hard to pin down. Often, Howell asked a barrage of rhetorical
questions, leving his followers baffled as to how to answer.
He roamed back and forth across the chapters of the Bible, arcane Biblical
references rolling off his tongue. Before the listener could gasp what had
just been said, he was on to something else. It was like a roller coaster
ride thrilling, but it was almost impossible afterward to say what you had
seen or heard.
But Howell's followers got hooked on the feeling - that sense of glimpsing
truth, even if it was awful and apocalyptic. Some compared it to a drug.
You felt like you were in the know, said a former cult member. Others in the
world might consider you average. Let them. They were unbelievers. But you
knew something they didn't - something that put you into the ultimate In
Crowd, the ones who wouldn't be taking a dip in the Lake of Fire.
And that was the importance of the seven seals.
The Seven Seals, found in Revelation and written in apocalyptic language,
herald the catastrophic events - famine, pestilence, a great war against
Israel, the martyrdom awaiting God's followers - that many Christians
believe will mark mankind's doom.
Howell told cult members that he, as Cyrus, was the Lamb that Revelation
says will reveal the Seven Seals.
If they followed him, he would lead them through the coming tribulations.
They would supposedly be martyred, but ascend to heaven, former cult members
said. Then they would return and slay the unbelievers - or the Babylonians,
as Howell called them.
Eternity awaited, if you could just grasp Howell's message.
What struck Hennig most about cult members was their numbing fear of never
understanding Howell. They couldn't just turn to the Bible and read for
themselves. As Howell had shown time after time in studies, the Bible's
language was much too dense for them to interpret. They were lost without
Howell. He was the fulcrum of their belief.
"I don't think anyone ever knew what his understanding was, honestly,"
Hennig said. "If you had given them pencil and paper, I don't think they
could have written down his message. They might have a piece of it here."
The Branch Davidians, though, had become convinced that they would not get
to heaven unless Howell showed them the way.
They came to believe Howell and not the Bible, said Gent.
He had almost become their God.
Henning would later write, for a psychology paper at the University of
British Columbia, "Generally in the quiet evenings, an introspective,
self-absorbed malaise seemed to overshadow the place as individuals perhaps
contemplated their grim future. The only consolation was that the world
would get it even worse."
Part 3
'Threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number'
Robyn Bunds was one of the first women in the Branch Davidians to be
sexually seduced by Vernon Howell. She seemed out of place among the women
in the cult. Many of them had a plain, unfinished look. Even without makeup,
Bunds did not lack for polish, not with her luxurious black hair, angular
face and piercing eyes. Beneath long, simple skirts, she wore stylish suede
boots.
A California girl, Bunds' life at Mount Carmel was a stark change from her
youth.
Her father, Don, was a design engineer. Her mother, Jeannine, a nurse. Both
were longtime Branch Davidians. In and around Los Angeles, the Bundses lived
a middle-class existence, which seemed pampered to Robyn Bunds after she
stayed in a tent for a year after going to live with the cult.
She had been drawn slowly into the Branch Davidians.
It definitely wasn't love at first sight between Bunds and Howell. Bunds
hated Howell's periodic visits during the mid-1980's to her parents' home in
the Highland Park section of Los Angeles. Bunds thought he was arrogant.
Howell thought she was spoiled. He called her "princess" because she slept
in a canopy bed.
One morning, when she was 14 years old, Bunds walked out of her home
expecting her brother, David to drive her to school. David, though, was
raptly listening to Howell, then 24.
Her pleas that she was late for school fell on deaf ears. Both mean told her
to take a walk.
When she returned home that afternoon, Howell was outside with his brother,
Roger. When Howell tried to introduce Bunds, she snubbed both of them. She
did have something to say to Roger Howell, though.
"Your brother's an ----," she said.
That remark earned Robyn a harsh spanking from her father.
Before Howell took over, Don and Jeannine Bunds had sent money religiously
to Ben and Lois Roden, but they only occasionally had visited Mount Carmel.
It was being farmed at the time and there were horses for the children to
ride.
"Before it was harmless," Robyn Bunds said. "You sent tithes, had services.
When Vernon came along, he totally changed it. He said you had to give him
all your money. You had to live on the property. You had to give up
everything else. You had to give him your mind..your body."
The cost of being a Branch Davidian rose.
Don and Jeannine Bunds spent $10,000.00 buying a van for the cult. Later,
they bought a house in Pomona, valued at $100,000, at Howell's request. The
house had a rock facing, which reminded Howell of the Biblical parable to
build your house upon a rock. Howell wanted a place for the men in the cult
to stay while in California, Robyn Bunds said.
She made an attempt to escape Howell's growing influence over her family.
When she was 17 years old, Bunds went to live with relatives in New Bedford,
Mass. A few months later, she asked to come home. Her parents said no. She
could not rejoin them in California. Howell had left orders for her to
report to the piney woods of Palestine, where the cult was headquartered at
the time.
Bunds bowed to her parents' wishes.
Most of the cult members at Palestine lived in plywood boxes. Bunds shared a
tent with Michelle Tom, an Australian.
Like the other Branch Davidians, she fell under Howell's spell.
For one thing, she had seen a transformation in him. She remembered hearing
him speak at Mount Carmel, before the Branch Davidians acknowledged him a
prophet. Howell couldn't connect his thoughts. He tried to preach, but he
didn't have anything to say. She had felt embarrassed for him.
Now, just a few years older, Howell seemed to her incredibly articulate,
never at a loss for words. He seemed tapped into a never-ending source of
Biblical knowledge.
But how?
Lurking behind the Branch Davidians' blind faith in Vernon Howell was the
acknowledgment that a ninth-grade dropout was keeping them spell bound. To
these intelligent and, in some cases, highly educated devotees there was
only one possible explanation: Howell was inspired.
And inspiration meant power in the Branch Davidians. Raw power.
One of the first ways Howell began using that power was to seduce the women
in the cult - single women, at the start, according to former cult members.
Bunds had been willing. She believed Howell to be inspired. But, more
importantly to Bunds, Howell seemed different from the man she remembered in
California. For a proclaimed prophet, he was surprisingly humble, polite and
charming.
In fact, he was the only man she had ever seen cry.
When Howell and seven followers stood trial in 1988, Howell had wept. He was
holding his daughter, Star, in his arms. It had touched Bunds, for she just
knew that Howell was thinking more of his followers than himself.
She was in love. Plain, but not simple.
Howell made her a "wife" when she was 17 by having sex with her, Bunds said.
But she had to share Howell. It wasn't easy for her.
Occasionally, she whined to Howell about not getting enough attention. It
stung when he called her spoiled, although she believed him to be right.
Her problems soon multiplied, though.
Howell began preaching that he was the antagonist of the Bible's "Song of
Solomon," according to Bunds and other former cult members. Howell read the
Scripture aloud and said it foretold the number of wives he would have:
"threescore queens and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number."
Translated, Howell was supposedly entitled to 60 wives and 80 concubines,
according to Breault.
In the same prophecy, Howell foretold of the Branch Davidians moving to
Israel. There they would become a target of an invading U.S. Army. Howell
taught that he would be crucified out of jealousy over his many wives,
according to Hennig.
"He started sleeping with the girls in the group," Hennig said. "People
started to notice. It's one thing to say polygamy is going to happen in
Israel at some future point. It's another to say that's what is going on
now. The reality of what he's teaching started to press in. I don't think
anyone knew he had been taking women in the group."
Howell went to great lengths to fulfill his prophecy.
Former Branch Davidian Bruce and Lisa Gent said Howell visited their
Melbourne, Australia, home in 1988. He told them that God had given Bruce
Gent's daughter, Nicole, 19, to him as a wife.
It seemed an unlikely unica.
In earlier years, Nicole Gent, much like a young Robyn Bunds, thought Howell
was someone to laugh at, what with the way "he strutted around like a
peacock" Bruce Gent said.
Nicole Gent was at college, but in timing that Bruce Gent calls "uncanny,"
she arrived home shortly before Howell was to return to America. Howell
wooed her with round-the-clock Scripture. Nicole Gent decided to go to Mount
Carmel to study Howell's message.
"It's like he cooks women," Lisa Gent said. "He prepares them for the fire
by the way he gives his studies. It's mind manipulation."
But Howell had control over Nicole Gent's father and stepmother, too.
One night, before she left, the girl had gone her parents' bedroom. "Vernon
wants me to be his teddy bear for the night," she told them. "Will you give
your permission?
The Gents gave their blessing, believing Nicole had been chosen for a holy
purpose - to help build the House of David.
"At that point in time, yes, I was very influenced." Bruce Gent said.
"Nicole had spent four days with him being convinced of the message. It
wasn't for me to say yes or no.She was going to have children for the Lord.
I shudder when I say that now."
At Mount Carmel, Nicole Gent became Howell's "favorite" wife for a time,
Robyn Bunds said.
"It's not like he says that you're his favorite," Bunds said. "It's just
obvious. He isn't with anyone else. He's always with you. It's more like a
flavor-of-the-month thing."
Nicole Gent's family said she returned to Australia to have her first baby,
Dayland, born July 22, 1989.
Her family hid her, Bruce and Lisa Gent said, to keep the pregnancy a
secret. Following Howell's instructions, Nicole Gent went out only at night
for walks and then wore a wig and glasses.
Few outsiders knew of the hold Howell had on his followers. Those who did
found it hard to fathom.
Barbara Slawson has two granddaughters in the Branch Davidians and was
herself a member in the days of Ben and Lois Roden. Slawson came to Mount
Carmel in 1984 at the request of Lois Roden to hear out Vernon Howell,
touted as the newest prophet.
Slawson couldn't understand what the others saw in Howell.
"At one time, I wondered if he put something in the water," Slawson said.
"Why do they think God gave them brains if they're going to listen to
someone and let him make all their decisions?"
Slawson saw the tightness of Howell's grip on cult members through
granddaughter Karen Doyle.
He had put the fear of Vernon Howell into her.
After much coaxing one day, Slawson persuaded Doyle and a few other Branch
Davidians to go shopping. As they drove along, the car died. A frantic Doyle
was sure Howell had intervened supernaturally, Slawson recalled.
"Vernon didn't want us to go," Doyle said.
"He can make the car stop?" an exasperated Slawson asked.
Branch Davidians didn't depend on Howell just for spiritual guidance. They
depended on him for everything. And he had an opinion on everything, from
what they wore to what they ate, former cult members said. When Howell first
became their prophet, Branch Davidians could buy extra food and juice
drinks. Then Howell forbade any changes in the prescribed diet.
He regularly checked people's living quarters to confirm his followers'
obedience, according to former cult members,
A family was thrown out of the Palestine camp after a search revealed they
had bought french fried potatoes against Howell's wishes, Lisa Gent said.
One Branch Davidian was banished from Mount Carmel for eating chocolate-chip
ice cream.
Once, Howell ordered followers not to eat any fruit except bananas, Breault
said. Then Howell would not let anyone eat oranges and grapes at the same
meal. They could, however, eat oranges and raisins.
"First, he was the only one allowed to eat meat." Breault said. "Then he was
the only one allowed to drink Coke. Then he was the only one allowed to
drink beer. The thing I noticed about Vernon is that whatever he was tempted
with, eventually God would get around to saying it was alright for him to
do."
Bruce Gent was sure Howell's involvement in every facet of the Branch
Davidians' lives and their dependence on him must be tiring. He asked Howell
about in once while driving him from Palestine to Waco.
"Isn't it great to get away?" Gent asked Howell.
Howell wanted to know what he meant, Well, Gent asked, wasn't it a relief to
get some time to yourself, away from people wanting your opinion on
everything, people who couldn't think for themselves?
Gent asked the question good-naturedly, but it upset Howell.
"Why do you need to think your own thoughts?" Gent remembers Howell asking.
Everyone at Mount Carmel did guard duty, even the women - who often brought
their children along with them. If any follower had trouble seeing the need
for eternal vigilance, Howell warned of the day the world would arise in
jealousy over his many wives, Breault said.
Breault, with his poor vision, was exempt from guard duty. He spent his time
at Mount Carmel hacking at his computer and practicing his music.
He hated the place.
It was isolated, out in the boonies of McLennan County, near Tradinghouse
Lake. Miles from anywhere. A far cry from Hawaii and California, where
Breault had spent his youth and college years.
Breault, like most of Howell's followers, was a former Seventh-day
Adventist. He considered it a dying church. Howell had offered a chance to
bring about its reformation, through his teachings and his rock n' roll
band. At first, it was exciting. Howell had prophesied that the band would
be a hit, luring converts to the Branch Davidian message.
The prophecy fizzled.
But what upset Breault more was the Branch Davidians' slavish worship of
Howell. People acted like he was God or something. Also, Howell's relentless
pursuit of the single women in the group was grating.
More and more, Breault wanted to leave.
But Breault had to admit that he didn't have the courage to leave.
What if Howell was right? If he bucked Howell's authority and was wrong,
hellfire awaited him. Of that, Breault was sure. Look at the people who
doubted Moses. They didn't make it to the Promised Land. Like many Branch
Davidians, Breault feared dying and going to hell.
Somehow, Howell seemed to recognize those fears.
"Sometimes, to illustrate what hell would be like, how the people would
scream, he'd start screaming," Breault said. "He once said it would be worse
than someone flaying off your skin with nail clippers. It was certainly
graphic. It got your attention."
So Breault hung on. He didn't know what it would take to make him leave. But
he was about to find out.
Part 4
Sex with young girls and Bible study tales
Breault played a computer game - a simulation of the TV show Star Trek -
while he waited outside Howell's bedroom one night in 1989.
Breault wanted to know if Howell was having sex with a 13-year old
Australian girl. He had watched quietly while Howell proclaimed the right to
have sex with the single women in the cult, but the Australian girl was
different.
It wasn't just her age.
Breault had objected when Howell talked of bringing the girl to America. She
had not been raised as a Branch Davidian, and he had told Howell it wasn't
right to bring over such an innocent girl just to have sex with her, Breault
told a Michigan court during the 1992 custody case.
After their argument, Breault testified, Howell said he would not take the
Australian girl as a wife. But when she and her family came to live at Mount
Carmel, Breault began to suspect Howell had lied to him.
So Breault had set a trap.
Late one night, he entered an office on the first floor of what had been the
cult's old church. Upstairs was Howell's bedroom. Breault wrote a few
unimportant letters on his computer, in case anyone asked what he was doing
there.
Mostly, he played his computer game - and waited.
The next morning, the Australian girl emerged from Howell's bedroom, Breault
said. He called out a greeting. Surprised, the girl asked why Breault was
there. Just getting an early start, he said. She shrugged and left.
"I realized it wasn't a matter of Biblical anything," Breault testified in
Michigan. "He just wanted to have sex with her."
Because she really didn't know what he was teaching."
Once during a 1988 conversation, Breault said, Howell had asked him to guess
his favorite wife.
Breault named Howell's legal wife, Rachel. No, Howell told him. Not her.
Breault said he rattled off more names, but not the name of Howell's
favorite wife.
Finally, Breault gave up.
Howell said his favorite wife was Rachel's younger sister, Breault told the
Michigan court. He said he never forgot Howell's next words.
"Can you believe it, Marc? She's been with me since she was 12 years old."
Howell's secret eventually became the talk of the Branch Davidians. And
Howell did the talking, 10 former cult members said.
Bruce Gent, the Australian, said he was in a Bible study when Howell related
the first time he had sex with his wife's sister.
"When he got into bed with her, she was only about 12," Gent said. "He
talked about taking her pants off. There was a big fight. She was trying to
look after her own, to protect herself. He made a big joke of it. A warped
bloody mind he's got."
Robyn Bunds remembers not questioning Howell's account at the time.
"Psychologically, it's weird. But you got used to it. It was normal.But now
that I'm out here, living a normal life, I realized it was rape," Bunds
said.
According to state records, Howell's wife's sister gave birth to a baby girl
Feb. 3, 1989. She was 14. The space on the birth certificate for the
father's name was left blank.
Howell denies fathering any children in the cult besides the two, Cyrus and
Star, born to his legal wife, Rachel, whom he married when she was 14 years
old.
Birth certificates show that at least two single women and one girl
identified by former cult members as Howell's so-called wives had babies.
None of them listed their babies' father on the birth certificate.
A copy of the California birth certificate for Wisdom Bunds records his
birth in Pomona on Nov. 14, 1988. Robyn Bunds is listed as the mother, but
there is not recorded father.
Bunds has since changed her son's first name to Shaun.
She said Howell is the boy's father. Howell ordered her not to list his name
on the birth certificate, Bunds said.
"Why do you have to put unknown for the father?" Bunds asked. "Think about
it. He was afraid someone was keeping track of the babies he was having."
Dana Okimoto, then 22, gave birth to a son, Sky Borne, on Sept. 10, 1988 in
Torrance, Calif.
No father is listed. The birth certificate says "Declined to state."
Okimoto refused to identify the father of her son, but former cult members -
including Bunds, who traveled with Okimoto from Mount Carmel to the Los
Angeles area in 1988 for the birth of their babies - said Howell is the
father.
A former cult member listed until 1991 as a midwife in McLennan County said
Howell eventually quit registering many of the babies born at Mount Carmel.
Jeannine Bunds, Robyn's mother, said she delivered twin girls to Howell's
younger sister-in-law at Mount Carmel in 1991. A nurse, Jeannine Bunds said
she also delivered Okimoto's second baby. According to Bunds, Howell
directed her not to register the births.
Howell was not as discreet within the Branch Davidians.
During another Bible study, Howell talked about the first time he had sex
with the 13-year-old Australian girl, two former cult members said. Howell
said the girl's heart beat so hard that he could actually hear it.
"You know when an animal's scared, how its heart just pounds?" Robyn Bunds
asked. "That's how Vernon said her heart sounded. Like when you're hunting
something is how he put it. That's how he said the heart of all the girls
sound when he's with them for the first time.
Howell dismissed the charge that he had sex with underage girls. He argues
that former cult members who make the allegations are followers of Breault.
Robyn Bunds heatedly denies Howell's contention, calling it "part of his
paranoia."
Breault left the Branch Davidians in September 1989. Peter Roenfeldt, pastor
of a Seventh-day Adventist Church in Melbourne, said Breault now attends his
church regularly.
"He certainly has not held himself out as a prophet in any sense, certainly
not in the 3, 3½ years that I've known him," Roenfeldt said.
It was Breault who precipitated the Michigan custody hearing, David Jewell
sued for custody of his daughter, Kiri, after an October 1991 telephone call
from Breault.
Breault asked Jewell if his daughter wore a pendant. She did.
"He said Kiri was targeted," Jewell said.
All Howell's wives or wives-to-be wore a six-sided Star of David, Breault
testified in St. Joseph, Mich., court in February 1992.
In a sworn affidavit, Breault described how he and Kiri, along with Sherri
Jewell, her mother, encountered Howell while walking at Mount Carmel during
the summer of 1989.
"Howell walked up and said hello," Breault wrote. "He asked Kiri whether she
had been behaving lately. Kiri responded that she had been behaving. Howell
said this was good, because if she wanted to be in the House of David, she
would have to be a good girl."
Robyn Bunds also said she heard Howell discuss the House of David with Kiri.
"If Kiri and her friends acted up, Vernon would say, 'You have to act like
ladies if you want to be in the House of David,'" Bunds said.
Discipline started early at Mount Carmel, according to former cult members,
who said that Howell at one time taught that parents should spank their
children at 8 months of age.
It was full-contact whipping, enough to leave its mark on a baby's buttocks,
according to former cult members. They said Howell often used a large wooden
spoon with a straight handles and almost spatula-like bottom.
Howell denies the allegation. He teaches that babies be "constrained" for
discipline, Howell said. Starting at age 4, discipline should include
spanking, he said.
But former cult member Michelle Tom told the Michigan court differently, in
a sworn affidavit. She wrote that Howell hit Tarah Tom, her daughter by
husband James Tom, on her buttocks with the wooden spoon for more than 30
minutes in 1988.
Tarah had cried when put on Howell's lap, the affidavit said.
"My baby was 8 months old at the time and when he finished, her bottom was
badly bruised and bleeding," Tom wrote.
A former cult member, who does not wish to be identified, saw Tarah shortly
after the whipping and said "her bottom was completely black and blue."
Tom did not protest the whipping.
"It's like you're in shock," she said in an interview.
"He always played on your emotions. If I had shown emotion, he might have
taken her away from me or something."
Howell was particularly harsh to his son, Cyrus, former cult members say.
Once, Cyrus refused to call Nicole Gent "mommy," Breault told the Michigan
court. Howell ordered Cyrus to sit next to Gent, who had been baby-sitting
the boy. When Cyrus, then about 3 years old, refused, Howell made him sleep
on the kitchen floor and go without food.
After a couple days, Howell told Nicole Gent to feed Cyrus, who was so weak
he could not eat by himself, Breault testified.
That night, Howell made Cyrus sleep in the garage of the cult's house in
Pomona, Calif., according to former Branch Davidian James Tom.
Tom said Howell ordered him to take Cyrus to the garage.
"I told Vernon that it wasn't a good idea, because there were rats there,"
Tom wrote in an affidavit. "Vernon made me take him anyway and told me to
make sure I told Cyrus that there were rats. The child was terrified. Cyrus
was made to sleep on a hard bench taken out of the shuttle bus and was
beside himself with fear."
During a 1986 Bible study in Palestine, Cyrus, then about 1, began crying
after being left along inside a bus, Bruce Gent said.
Howell, irritated at the disruption, made several trips to the bus to strike
his son, Gent said. Each whipping lasted several minutes.
The boy's screams from the bus haunted the church, Gent said.
"After 5 to 10 minutes, the cries became whimpers and Vernon would return,"
said Breault, who was also at Palestine. "Then Cyrus would start crying
again. Vernon would go back to the bus. You could hear the spanks from where
we were."
Neither Rachel Howell nor any other member of the cult left to comfort the
baby, Breault and Gent said.
"It's hard to understand if you've never been there," Breault said. "But
we're talking about a man who was supposed to be a prophet. He was giving
the words of life. You were not supposed to miss out."
Robyn Bunds said Howell hit 10-month-old Shaun with a paddle at Mount Carmel
after the baby wouldn't come to him.
"I was shocked," Bunds said. "But I realize he wanted him to love his
father. In a normal family, the child knows who his father is. But Vernon
was never around to know as a daddy. He shows up and thinks it's time to
discipline Shaun because he's spoiled. He's not spoiled. He was scared of
Vernon.
Bunds said Shaun's bottom bled after the whipping.
At the recommendation of her day-care center, Bunds had scheduled an
appointment for her son to meet with a therapist. Day-care teachers report
that Shaun is emotionally underdeveloped, Bunds said. They told her he is
easily frustrated and cries often, she said.
Bunds blames her son's problems on Howell's inattention and harsh
discipline.
Howell contends Bunds whipped Shaun.
"Yeah, I spanked him," Bunds said. "I'm not proud of it. I want to throw up,
to know I let him get to me in that way. I'm sorry I did that. There's no
way to take it back. But I was told to. The hardest thing for me of all this
is to know I did it, too. All I can say is I was in a certain frame of mind.
"Vernon said even if a child died from a spanking they would go to heaven.
You don't think like that in a cult. You can't think that way or you won't
survive for one day."
Part 5
For the Lamb, all women; For you, Adam's rib
Howell picked California to reveal the "New Light," a teaching which led to
a major rift in the Branch Davidian.
About four hours into a sermon at the cult's Pomona house on Aug. 5, 1989,
Breault saw Howell cock his head and melodramatically look up, or so it
seemed to be Breault. It was as if Howell was listening to someone. It was
like, "Yeah, now I see the light," Breault recalled.
Howell told his followers that he was the Lamb mentioned in the book of
Revelation, the one who would open the seven Seals and lead them all to
salvation. That they had heard before and believed.
Then Howell annulled all marriages.
All women in the cult - in fact, all women - belonged to the Lamb, Howell
said. He was their perfect mate. Then men's perfect mate was already part of
them. Howell recounted the story of Adam and Eve and how Eve came for Adam's
rib, Breault said. The men, if they henceforth remained celibate, would get
their perfect mates in heaven in the same manner as Adam. But the married
men must give up their earthly wives - to Howell.
"Who could understand you better than someone who had lived inside you?"
asked Bruce Gent, a former Branch Davidian who heard the New Light during
Howell's subsequent visit to Australia. "That's the way he presented it."
Marriage was really just glorified adultery, Howell said, according to
Breault and other former cult members.
Men and women were only seeking a moral sanction for their raging hormones,
while Howell wanted the cult's women in order to have babies who would usher
in Paradise.
The message left the men numb.
Howell's New Light wasn't spontaneous, a whimsy. It was the logical
progression of what he had been teaching for years, his utter devotion to
building the House of David - having sex with numerous women and girls in
the cult to produce children that Howell claimed would one day rule the
hereafter with him.
It was just the next step, so much so that some Branch Davidians staying at
Mount Carmel guessed what was up when they heard rumors that Howell had
delivered a new message.
"Everyone was speculating that it was," said Robyn Bunds. "It was like, 'The
only thing left is he's going to take our wives.' What the hell else was
left? There wasn't anything else surprising to do."
As Breault left the room in Pomona after the 13-hour Bible study, Howell
wrapped his arm around his neck.
"So Marc, how does it feel now that I'm stuck with Elizabeth?" Howell asked.
Elizabeth was Elizabeth Baranyai, Breault's wife of three months.
"Over my dead body," Breault thought.
Life with Vernon Howell had been more than Breault could stomach for some
time. He hoarded what he had, and he always wanted more.
Now Howell was turning the Branch Davidians into a harem and the men into
virtual eunuchs sworn to guard its secret.
Most married men stayed after Howell took their wives. To those who left the
cult, and to outsiders, they were saps, but they couldn't bear the thought
of leaving. It threw them into despair. For if they left, what was all the
suffering for? Why had they spent all those years in the cult? For nothing,
that's what. And that was too painful for most Branch Davidians to face.
Breault knew. He has experienced all those feelings. But Breault had finally
had enough.
He had applied to Australian officials in May for an immigration visa. The
New Light made him even more anxious to leave and thankful his wife had gone
on ahead to Melbourne to earn money to pay his way over.
Howell clearly had broken the standard to which the Bible holds prophets,
Breault decided, for his teaching contradicted the Bible - which teaches
that marriage is an honored institution.
A month after the New Light, Australian authorities granted Breault a visa.
Breault telephone an aunt who lived in Mission Hills, Calif. While most
Branch Davidians were away working, she picked him up at the Pomona house.
He took all he could carry in a suitcase, leaving behind thousands of
dollars in computer equipment,
The men and women who remained were quickly separated by Howell, who told
cult members that it was for their own good.
To show why, Howell asked one woman to hike her skirt during a Bible study,
two former cult members said. The woman obeyed, exposing her panties. Howell
asked the men if they were sexually aroused. Almost all of the man raised
their hands. After thanking the woman for her obedience, Howell told his
followers that it's impossible for men and women to be friends. Sooner or
later, men will want to have sex with women. They can't help themselves,
Howell said.
Eventually, the men and women came together only for Bible studies. Howell
harshly rebuked husbands who tried to maintain contact with their wives,
former cult members said.
One cult member who lost his wife to Howell said he gave her up because of
"what they were going to accomplish in the kingdom," Bruce Gent said. Life
on Earth, though, became hell for the married men in the cult.
"When I was there.I mean guys were in tears about it, that God wanted them
to give up their wives," said a former cult member, who fears harm if
identified. They were heartbroken."
The men and women who had their lives torn apart by the New Light may have
thought their lot was hard, but it was Howell who constantly sought
sympathy, former cult members said,
"He would say it's not easy being in his position," Breault said. "All women
have things about them you don't like. Rachel has big feet. She was not
perfect. Dana was too short. She was not perfect. He was looking forward to
the kingdom of God when they're perfect."
Howell talked woefully of his struggle to build the House of David in an
audio tape delivered to the cult's Australian members.
"In my body has been desire, but it deceived me," Howell said on tape. "I
looked upon the desire and said, "This is love, 'but once that love came
through my testicles and left out the head of my mind and wen into their
body, my body turned into hatred, my body found no more desire and my body
ached, my stomach grabbed ahold of me and says, 'You don't love these
girls.'
"I said, 'God, what is love?' God said, 'No man knoweth love, nor hate, by
all the things that he sees under the sun."
"And I persevered. I continued my work, feeling very lonely, feeling like a
dirty dog, cause God said they that bear the vessels of the Lord shall
triumph."
Such lamentation won Howell support from the most Branch Davidians, who felt
he was suffering for them.
But Robyn Bunds had seen enough.
She had joined the House of David when she was 17, at first beguiled by
Howell and an early prophecy that one of his wives would become the bride of
Christ.
"It was like a beauty contest," Bunds said. "All of us battling against each
other to be this woman that God thinks is the greatest. It was like a fairy
tale.
"When I was young, I went to Disneyland and watched all these Disney movies,
like Cinderella. In the light he teaches, a man on a white horse comes and
takes you away. Back then, I was still dreamy-eyes. I wasn't really into
reality."
She was now. Part of it was just growing up. Part of it was having a son,
Shaun. But the biggest part of it was the New Light.
Bunds had never liked sharing Howell, but she did, until the New Light made
her realize how preposterous it was to be one of Howell's "wives."
One of the first married women whom Howell took was Bunds' mother. Jeannine
Bunds was in her early 50's, an attractive woman who looked younger than her
age. She was married to Don Bunds, a design engineer who was 10 years older
than his wife.
Jeannine Bunds admittedly found Howell's attention flattering.
For Robyn Bunds, though, learning that Howell was having sex with her mother
was too "weird."
She wasn't angry at her mother. For Jeannine Bunds, it was a chance to fell
young again, to contribute to building the House of David and, perhaps, to
making more of "those beautiful children" that were all over Mount Carmel.
Jeannine Bunds said Howell prophesied that she would become pregnant if they
had sex. She would have a child for the Lord.
Her daughter, who had one such child, no longer believed in the House of
David. She believed Howell was just a plain, ordinary Bible-thumping lecher.
"I've had his child. He's slept with my mother," Robyn Bunds said. "I can't
think of anything weirder. He doesn't even try to justify it. It's against
Levitical law in the Bible. Did you know that? It's against Levitical law to
have a woman and her mother or a woman and her sister. He uses that law when
it backs up something he has to say. But when it doesn't he throws it away."
Jeannine Bunds said she now thinks Howell had another reason in mind when he
took all the wives in the cult than just building the House of David. It
came to her when Howell separated the married men and women.
"It gave him more control," she said, "He's big on control. If you're
married, you talk, you discuss things. But if you're with your mate at
night, you can't talk, you can't put Vernon down. You don't have anybody.
You're isolated."
The New Light sickened Robyn Bunds. She vowed to leave the cult. But she
would learn that her remark after hearing of the New Light was wrong.
Howell hadn't run out of surprising things to do.
Part 6
The taking of Wisdom, a Leaving of the House of David
Detective Ron Ingels though he was back in the '60's when he entered the
house at 2707 White Ave., in La Verne, Calif.
Ingels accompanied Robyn Bunds to the two-story white stucco in the summer
of 1990. Police had a warrant to search for her young son, Shawn. Once
inside, police found the house set up like a dormitory. One room had a
single bed, but all the other rooms had bunk beds.
It reminded Ingels of a commune.
Arriving on a Saturday, police had interrupted a Sabbath service. There were
men downstairs who had come over from the cult's Pomona house. When police
went upstairs, they found about 20 women and one man.
Vernon Howell.
"He was there by himself with all the women," said Ingels, now the police
chief. "And the women indicated that they were dedicated and loyal to Howell
and would do anything he said. It was a strange situation. All the men
stayed in Pomona. All the women stayed with Howell."
La Verne looks and feels like a village, with large old houses, a town
square and a small campus, the University of La Verne, that's straight out
of a Norman Rockwell illustration, with the addition of a few palm trees.
La Verne police were aware of the Branch Davidians, who didn't quite fit in,
but considered them harmless.
Until they met Bunds. She had quite a story to tell.
"I didn't leave out one dirty detail,: she said.
Bunds told police that Howell had upward of 15 so-called wives, or the women
in the cult with whom he had sex. And some of the wives were underage, she
reported to police, including a 14-year old Australian girl who had become a
"wife" a year earlier. Bunds also had been one of Howell's wives, she said.
She believed Howell had kidnapped her son, Shaun, who was then less than 2,
and sent him to Mount Carmel.
She had been one of Howell's wives, she told police. Howell was the boy's
father.
The apparent kidnapping came after she had seemingly gotten Howell's
blessings to leave the cult, Bunds said.
Howell had pulled her aside a few weeks before at the La Verne House and
kissed her. To his surprise, she started crying. He asked what was wrong.
She wanted to leave and try to live a normal life, Bunds told him.
Mockingly, Howell asked where she would go. Bunds, then 21, threw out the
name of a former boyfriend, one she had not seen or heard from in years. It
was the only person she could think of.
An angry Howell stormed away, Bunds said.
The next day, after Bungs got off work as a receptionist for a
videotape-duplication company, she returned to the La Verne house to find
all her belongings gone. This was her chance, she reasoned. Howell was
saying, in effect, "See if you can make it on your own."
But Howell meant Bunds to start a new life missing more than her belongings.
Shaun, or Wisdom, as he was called at the time, was also gone. Howell had
sent the boy to Texas in the care of Branch Davidian Novelette Sinclair,
according to Robyn Bunds and police. Sinclair was one of the women who kept
Shaun while his mother worked.
Incensed, Robyn Bunds had gone to the La Verne Police Department.
At the house on White Avenue, she identified the women she believed to be
Howell's wives, including her own mother, Jeannine.
Howell told police what they suspected: Shaun was not there. He was in
Texas.
Sgt. John Hackworth and the other police officers noticed that Howell's
voice was trembling. He hardly seemed a foreboding figure, a prophet with
the might of Go behind him. There was a hint of anger, too. Hackworth
thought he knew why. Howell was no longer in control; the police were. His
followers saw him reduced to a mere mortal.
Wanting to put a scare into Howell, La Verne police gave him 48 hours to
return Shaun Bunds to California or face kidnapping charges. The media would
also be alerted, police said.
Before police left, Howell asked to speak to Robyn Bunds.
"Robyn, you know more than these people," Howell implored.
"Shut up," an officer snapped at Howell. "She's being deprogrammed."
"Am I that far gone?" a stunned Bunds asked herself.
Howell walked around "like a zombie," after police left, Jeannine Bunds
said. He couldn't believe that Robyn Bunds had gone to the authorities.
"She stuck a knife in my heart and twisted it," Howell said aloud.
Two days later, Shaun was back home.
Police returned to the La Verne house and asked to see the 14-year-old
Australian girl. But she had gone to Texas along with Howell.
"If they had detained her that first night, this would be all over," Robyn
Bunds said.
Ingels said the first priority for La Verne police was getting Shaun back to
his mother, not questioning the Australian girl.
"Before we could really investigate, she disappeared," Ingels said. "He
left, too. And he didn't come back.I don't think he liked our attention."
Jeannine Bunds left the Branch Davidians a few months after her daughter.
"I wanted to be in the House of David," said Jeannine Bunds. "He made it
sound so wonderful. I did. I did believe. I couldn't tell you why now."
Howell had prophesied that she would become pregnant, but she didn't. She
became more depressed when Robyn left the cult. Howell exacerbated things by
forbidding her to talk to her daughter.
Heartbroken, Jeannine Bunds quit her job as a nurse at Providence Health
Center and left Waco, leaving Howell a goodbye note.
"Even now, I don't hate him," Jeannine Bunds said. "Even after all he's done
to my family. It's hard for me. I've seen both sides of him. He can be nice.
He cares about people, or at least he seems to.I do have feelings for
Vernon. Sometimes, they overwhelm me. But all my life, this has been my
daughter, my baby, my doll."
One member of the Bunds family remains at Mount Carmel. Don Bunds chose
Howell over his family. His greatest fear is burning in hell, his wife and
daughter said. His family rarely hears from him.
Jeannie Bunds sees a cruel irony in losing her husband to religion. Reared a
Catholic, she changed faiths to keep her husband.
"Because of this, I really lost my husband," she said. "So what did I
accomplish? I just sit back sometimes and it feels like I've been hit by a
bomb. I think I should have done this; I should have done that. Bit it's too
late for me. It's too late for my family. It's been blown to smithereens."
She blames herself for Robyn becoming involved with the Branch Davidians. "I
feel like we did her a dirty deal, even though he was very deceptive about
what he did," she said.
For herself, Jeannine Bunds offers no excuse.
"I'm over 21, intelligent," she said. "I could have walked at any time. I
chose to stay. He doesn't keep you. You can leave.
"What you have to understand, though, is he keeps you by emotion. When
you're down there, it's all so exciting. You don't know what he'll come up
with next. I guess everyone is looking for Utopia, Shangri-La. You don't
want any problems.
"It wasn't all bad times, you know. The people in this are great. They'll
give you the shirt off their back. They're nice, like everyone else in the
world. Except they believe this."
Jeannine Bunds works two jobs so her daughter can attend Mount San Antonio
College, where she is a pre-law major. They live in the Pomona house, which
Don and Jeannine Bunds bought on Howell's order. The cult abandoned the
house last spring.
Every day, Shaun Bunds, now 4 reminds both Jeannine and Robyn Bunds that
they once loved the same man.
Part 7
Dueling prophets, the Sinful Messiah, a fallen rock
Marc Breault didn't set out to lead anyone away from anything. He went to
Australia to forget.
He wanted to start anew with his wife, Elizabeth Baranyai, a native
Australian, and forget the last four years of his life, which he considered
wasted.
Eventually, Breault, 29, started his own computer programming company.
But Breault couldn't forget that he had recruited many of Howell's
followers. It ate at him. He felt guilty. But he knew that if he went to the
Australian cult members, most of whom lived near Melbourne, and said, "Hey,
guys, I've been studying my Bible and I can show you where Vernon is wrong,"
they would not listen. He was one of them.
Then he had a moment of inspiration.
The Australian remembered Breault's dreams, his musing on whether he, too,
might be anointed. Howell had encouraged those musings.
So Breault told the Australian that he, too, was a prophet. And that God had
given him a revelation.
They agreed to hear Breault out.
Howell claimed to be the Lamb of Revelation who would reveal the Seven
Seals, didn't he? Only, didn't Howell also say he was Cyrus, the man who
would destroy the Babylonians, or unbelievers?
Well, Breault said, God had told him that the Lamb was really Jesus Christ.
Not Cyrus. And not Vernon Howell. It was easy to prove, Breault said. He
read to them from the New Testament. John 1:20.
"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and said Behold the Lamb of
God, which taketh away the sin of the world."
Breault's plan worked. One by one, over about a year, many of the
Australians concluded that Howell was a false prophet.
Then Breault disclosed that he wasn't a prophet, either.
Howell fought back, issuing a revelation of his own. And it was
breathtaking.
If the Bible said only the Christ could reveal the Seven Seals, that led to
an inescapable conclusion, Howell argued. Had he not shown repeatedly that
only he could unveil the baffling language guarding the Seven Seals? What
other explanation was there?
Vernon Howell was Jesus Christ, come again. But this time with a dramatic
difference, according to Howell. He was the Sinful Messiah. The first Jesus
was pure and sinless. How could he fairly judge anyone, Howell asked.
The Sinful Messiah explained much about Howell to his followers. This Jesus
Christ cursed like a sailor and, by his own tongue, admitted lusting after
women. It made a certain kind of sense.
Breault, however, pointed out a flaw in Howell's claim to be a Christ prone
to sin. Hebrews 9:28:
"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that
look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."
The battle for the souls of the Australian cult members would climax in a
showdown between Howell and Breault.
Howell traveled to Melbourne early in 1990, staying at the home of Bruce and
Lisa Gent, who like the other Australians had wavered in the face of
Howell's claim to be Christ.
The Australian had heard rumors of the New Light, but Howell had denied it
in an audio tape mailed to each of them.
Now, In a Bible studies in the Gents' living room, where he could work on
them for hours, Howell confirmed that the married men had to find their
perfect mates in heaven, Bruce Gent said. Their wives must cleave to Howell.
During the studies, Howell complained that some women who understood the
truth of what he was preaching still dared to go to bed with their husbands.
He pointed to the Gents' bedroom.
After several days of round-the-clock Bible studies, Lisa Gent checked into
a motel. She studied her Bible and concluded that Howell was not the Lamb.
He was not Christ. She called her husband and together, they asked Howell to
leave their home.
Howell moved in with James and Michelle Tom.
Through an intermediary, he called Breault and challenged him to a showdown
at the Toms' house. Breault came, but asked his brother-in-law to call
police if he and his wife, Elizabeth Baranyai, were not home by 10 p.m.
Breault tried to explain why he didn't believe Howell was inspired, but
Howell bounded him on one point. Who had taught him the Seven Seals? Didn't
that prove Howell was the Lamb or Jesus Christ?
"Who taught you, Marc?" Howell asked repeatedly.
Howell said he was the man on the white horse mentioned in Revelation, the
lion of the trine of Judah, because he was a Leo.
Breault made light of that. Since Howell also claimed to be the man on the
black horse with a pair of scales in his hand, did that also mean he was a
Libra?
Irate, Howell began talking as if he were Jesus - not the supposed Jesus of
today, the Sinful Messiah, but the Jesus of the New Testament, remembering
what it was like when Judas betrayed him. It was something Breault had never
heard Howell do. He and Elizabeth left.
Shortly afterward, there was a knock at the door. It was past 10 p.m. A
voice said the police were coming. Actually, it was only John Baranyai,
worried about his sister and brother-in-law.
Howell ran out the back door, grabbed a bicycle and pedaled away, leaving
his followers on their own.
He left Australia empty-handed.
Breault pursued. He called some of the Branch Davidians living at Mount
Carmel, but they refused to accept Breault's argument that Howell was fraud.
It was probably a waste of time to try to reach them, Breault decided. They
were too close to Howell.
But in talking and corresponding with other former cult members, Breault
came to believe there was one Branch Davidian he could rescue.
She was 10 years old. Her name was Kiri Jewell.
Her mother, Sherri Jewell, was a school teacher who spent much of her free
time at the cult's house in La Verne, Calif. Breault had already failed to
persuade her that Howell was not Jesus Christ, even though he and his wife
had once been close to her. Sherri Jewell had been maid of honor at their
wedding.
But Kiri Jewell's father was not a Branch Davidian. David Jewell was a disc
jockey in South Bend, Ind. He and Sherri Jewell were divorced, but he had
retained joint custody of his daughter.
In October 1991, Breault called David Jewell. He asked Jewell if he knew
whether his daughter ever wore a pendant. Yes, she wore six-sided star - the
Star of David, Jewell said.
Howell had targeted Kiri for the House of David, Breault told Jewell.
Jewell sued for emergency custody of his daughter when she visited him in
Niles, Mich., after Christmas. The hearing was Feb. 25-28, 1992, in St.
Joseph, Mich.
In the mellow tones of this profession, Jewell told Judge Ronald Taylor that
he had a bad feeling about the Branch Davidians long before Breault's phone
call.
In 1987, Sherri Jewell had told him that she wanted to take Kiri to
Palestine, Texas, David Jewell testified.
"Sherri told me unless I cooperated with the move, I'd be forever damned to
hell," Jewell said. "And if I did cooperate, I would be given more light.
The kind of thinking set off alarm bells as to my daughter's well-being."
Breault, Elizabeth Baranyai and Jean Smith all paid their way over from
Australia to testify on David Jewell's behalf.
Breault testified he had parted with Howell when he had to "face the reality
of his taking young girls."
"Vernon would really emphasize to girls anywhere from 6, 7 on up, 'You
should want to be with me,'" Breault said. '"This is the ultimate thing.
Your whole lives should be directed to this. You should know the Scriptures.
You should know what I teach, so when you are ready, you can become one of
the people in the House of David.'"
Smith, 72, testified that she stayed at the La Verne house during a
Passover. Men in the cult were not allowed there, except with Howell's
permission, she said.
"The women in any of those rooms could be called on by Vernon at that
stage," Smith said. She called Howell a "straight-out bully."
Sherri Jewell did not testify.
On the third day, the two sides announced that a shared-custody agreement
had been worked out. One of its conditions was that Kiri be kept away from
Howell.
Having gotten one more cult member away from Howell, Breault returned to
Melbourne.
A programmer, he uses his home computer to keep in touch with ex-cult
members and the families of present cult members. They've fashioned an
intelligence network of sorts that attempt to track the Branch Davidians'
doings.
The former Australian cult member said they last heard as a group from
Howell almost three years ago after an earthquake had struck Pomona,
damaging the house where the men had stayed.
Howell had picked out the house because its rock facing reminded him of the
Biblical parable to build our house on a rock.
The earthquake had crumbled the rock, which fell to the ground.
By telephone, Howell warned the Australian that the earthquake was a sign of
God's anger at the for abandoning him.
To Breault and the Australian, if it signaled anything, the falling rock
signaled the collapse of the Branch Davidians.
And, they hoped, Vernon Howell.
familyvalues
the walls of the kingdom on the flat plains of Texas, David Koresh knew them
all-in the Biblical sense, former followers say. He began a decade ago with
Lois Roden. She was 67 and the widowed leader of the Branch Davidians when
the 23-year old Koresh, still called by his birth name of Vernon Howell,
arrived at the Mount Carmel compound. He confessed to the group that he
worried about his excessive masturbation. Ex-members say Roden felt sorry
for him and they became lovers, even tried to have a child. Koresh now
disavows the union, saying she was as ugly as Medusa.
His next lover was at least a little bit closer to his own age. In 1984, he
married Rachel Jones, the 14-year old daughter of two followers; she bore
him a son, Cyrus, and a daughter, Star. Koresh claimed to be monogamous for
two entire years. But then, followers say, God told him to build a new House
of David, one with many wives, just as King David had. Many wives, like
Robyn Bunds, then 17, and later, her mother, Jeannine, 50. Robyn Bunds says
Koresh fathered her 4-year old son, Shaun. According to the Waco
Tribune-Herald, she fled when Koresh took up with her mother. Both women now
live in California.
As the years passed, the "wives" got younger and younger. Michelle Jones,
12, was his wife Rachel's little sister and, an ex-follower says, Koresh's
special favorite. At least a dozen other nubile members of the flock
succumbed; they wore Star of David pendants, a sign that they had been
chosen. When the ex-husband of one Branch Davidian heard that his 10-year
old daughter was wearing the star, he sued for custody and, after winning,
whisked her away to his home in Michigan, according to the Waco paper.
Many of the girls' parents were Koresh's followers; they gave their
blessings because "they believed in his message," says Robyn Bunds's brother
David. All in the name of God, of course. Koresh often preached from the
45th Psalm, where it is written that the king's head is anointed with the
"oil of gladness." Koresh's unique analysis: the oil refers to vaginal
secretions. During intercourse, his "wives" anoint the head of their king's
penis.
It sounds like crazy talk now. Who could have believed it? But there they
were, dozens of devotees, lured to a lonesome place on the Texas prairie by
the promise of salvation. They had traveled from all over the country and
beyond-Hawaii, Britain, Australia Koresh had recruited many of his forays
around the globe in search of new blood. Some turned all their worldly goods
over to him. In several cases, that amounted to hundreds of thousands of
dollars. They were holed up in the fortress with the man who claimed to both
a prophet king and a warrior angel with the keys to heaven. Maybe even the
Messiah.
He was a ninth-grade dropout, but his knowledge of the Scriptures was so
formidable it truly seemed superhuman. And he could talk for hours and hours
and hours, from early morning to well past midnight, while they listened
until they could hear no more, not moving, not eating, not sleeping. "They
lived in constant fear," says Rick Ross, a deprogrammer who counseled a
former Branch Davidian. "He developed a crisis mentality, constantly talking
about the end of the world, telling them they always had to be ready for the
aggressors who would come from without the walls to destroy them." They were
ready for Armageddon, and when federal agents stormed their fortress, it
must have seemed as though the Last Days had begun.
This wasn't what the Creator had in mind. The Branch Davidians are an
offshoot of a schism of Seventh-day Adventist Church. Their ancestors are
the Davidian Seventh-day Adventists, founded in the 1930s by Victor Houteff,
a Bulgarian emigre and prominent Los Angeles area Adventist, who bolted to
Texas when a book he had written upset church officials. Houteff believed
that the Adventists had become lax. "He believed that the return of Christ
was imminent but that it could not happen until there was a purer church
that could receive Christ," says Bill Pitts, a Baylor University religion
professor who has studied the sect.
Houteff attracted scores of members to his semicommunal farm in Waco, but
the organization began to fall apart a few years after his death in 1955.
His widow, Florence, took over the helm and moved the group to the current.
In 1959, Pitts says, she proclaimed that the Kingdom of God would arrive on
Easter Day. Hundreds of followers across the country sold everything, quit
their jobs and made the trip to Waco for the big event. They were looking
for some sign that the kingdom would be coming-a war in the Mideast or some
other signal of cataclysm. Alas, the Lord didn't come and the failed
prophecy shook the Davidians to the core. "After two or three weeks," says
Pitts, "they experienced what is called 'The Great Disappointment'."
Although a core group of about 50 stayed in Waco after this sad episode,
most of the Davidians moved on. A power struggle ensued. The group
splintered and eventually a man named Ben Roden rose up and declared himself
the leader of a new group, the Branch Davidians. Roden ruled until he died
in 1978 and was succeeded by his wife, Lois.
Enter Vernon Wayne Howell. A would-be rock musician, he was the illegitimate
son of Bonnie Haldeman. Born in Houston, he grew up in Dallas where he was
raised as an Adventist. "He was a very bright little boy in lots of ways,"
says his maternal grandmother, Earline Clark of Chandler, Texas, "but when
he started school, he was dyslexic." He went to a special school for a year
or so, but never did well. By the ninth grade, he had dropped out. Despite
these difficulties, he studied the Bible and played the guitar, Clark says.
At 18 he moved to Tyler, Texas, not far from Chandler, where he joined the
Adventist Church. But his grandmother says local church leaders didn't care
for his long hair and casual dress. Clarks says Howell became disillusioned
with the Tyler church and shortly thereafter moved to Waco to be with the
Branch Davidians.
When Howell arrived, Lois Roden's control over the Branch was already
waning. Her son, George, thought he should be his father's true successor,
and some Branch Davidians were more than a little perturbed by Lois Roden's
recent proclamation that the Holy Spirit was feminine. Former followers say
they didn't like George Roden much, either. Thought he was buts. Howell
walked right into this power vacuum. Over the next few years, he bedded Lois
Roden and married Rachel Jones, according to the ex-adherents. After his
marriage, he shunned the old woman, declaring that his beliefs were now the
true revealed word. He had a charismatic manner and a scriptural answer for
everything. "He knew the Bible awful well," says Doug Mitchell, a former
member of the group who now lives in California. "He was always teaching
that Sister Roden had lost he inspiration." Howell also pestered Roden to
get rid of her son. Howell and George Roden got into a few fights (Howell's
relationship with his mother couldn't have helped), and George began wearing
a gun around the compound. It was the first weapon ever seen at Mount
Carmel, Mitchell says. Around this time, Mitchell recalls going to consult
with Lois Roden about some minor issue. "Ask Vernon," she said with a sigh.
"He seems to be in charge."
What Vernon put in charge was how his new revelation. He was the seventh and
final angel destined to be the agent of God who brought about the end of the
world. This was truly an apocalyptic vision, but it was also the logical
conclusion of Howell's earlier prophecies. He had originally preached that
the end would come when he moved to Israel and began converting the Jews.
The conversion, he claimed, would cause worldwide upheaval, start a war and
would cause. American armed forced to invade the Holy Land. That would
signal the beginning of Armageddon. Then Howell would be transformed into a
warrior angel who would cleanse the earth in preparation for the New
Jerusalem.
Howell actually went to Israel in the 1980s, but things didn't work out as
he he'd predicted. So he switched to Plan N. In 1990, he legally changed his
name to David Koresh (Koresh is Hebrew for Cyrus, the Babylonian king who
allowed the Jews to return to Israel). Abandoning the notion of an
Apocalypse starting in Israel, he began predicting that the great battle
would be in Texas, says David Bunds. The group would stay at Mount Carmel
and await the moment when the American army attacked and brought about the
end of the world.
In the meantime, they managed to keep fairly busy with the mundane details
of pre-apocalyptic earthly life. Howell and a core group of about 25 members
left the compound after Lois Roden's death in 1986 and wandered through
Waco, other parts of Texas and California. In 1987, they were living in the
aptly named town of Palestine, Texas, when they decided to wrest back Mount
Carmel from George Roden, who at that point claimed to be the true prophet
of the Branch. Roden heard about their intentions and challenged his rival
to a grisly contest. He dug up a coffin containing the corpse of an 85-year
old woman and announced that whoever of them could resurrect the woman was
the true leader. Howell wisely declined to participate.
In Halloween of that year, Denise Wilkerson, then a prosecutor in Waco,
received an unusual request from sheriff's deputies. Howell wanted to
prosecute Roden for corpse abuse. "Given that it was Halloween, we thought
it was a joke," Wilkerson says. Nevertheless, she told the sheriff's
department that without evidence of a crime, say a photograph showing that
there was actually a corpse in the coffin, she could not file charges. A few
days later, in the early morning hours of Nov. 3, Howell and seven heavily
armed comrades dressed in camouflage fatigues made their way from Palestine
onto the grounds of Mount Carmel. Their alleged goal: to get a picture of
the corpse. The invaders waited until many of the adults and children at
Mount Carmel had left for work and school, then went from building to
building warning members to leave because there might be trouble. One member
notified Roden instead. Wilkerson says Roden grabbed his Uzi and a 20-minute
fire fight followed. The sheriff was called and the shooting stopped. No one
was killed, but Roden was slightly wounded in the hand and chest.
Howell and his men were charged with attempted murder and released on bond.
Then Roden was jailed for contempt of court in an unrelated case after he
filed "some of the most obscene and profane motions that probably have ever
been filed in a federal courthouse," says Wilkerson. Howell seized the
moment, moving his followers into Mount Carmel and fortifying the place.
In early 1988, Howell and the seven members of his team went on trial for
attempted murder. Claiming that he was aiming at a tree, Howell admitted
shooting in Roden's direction, and that his colleagues had merely fired
their guns into the air to scare Roden into giving up. Howell's accomplices
were acquitted, and Howell's trial ended in a hung jury. "After the verdict
was announced," Wilkerson recalls, "a couple of jurors came over and hugged
Vernon because they found him to be a very sympathetic character." Then, as
the spectators were filing out of the courtroom, Howell invited everyone,
including the jury, out to Mount Carmel for an ice cream social.
A few months later George Roden got out of jail on the contempt charges and
moved to Odessa. Not long afterwards he was sent to a state mental hospital
after killing a man. (Still there last week, he said, "I've been trying to
warn people about Vernon for years.")
Since the trial, Mount Carmel has presented a quiet front to the outside
world. Neighbors reported that Howell/Koresh was a regular guy, who often
turned up at local clubs to listen to live music. Brent Moore, manager of
the Chelsea Street Pub, says he last saw Koresh about a month ago, when he
came to the pub with a man and a woman in their early 20s. They were happily
showing down bean and cheese nachos with iced tea.
But within the cult, former followers say life grew more and more bizarre.
At the compound, there was an armed guard at all times and Koresh was in
total control. In August 1989, former followers say, he announced that not
only was he allowed to have as many wives as he wanted; he was the only man
allowed to have wives. Every other marriage was annulled. Many happy married
couples in the group were shocked and quite a few left. Marc Breault was one
of them. After moving to Australia, he organized other former Branch
Davidians and hired an investigator to go to Waco to get local authorities
to bust Koresh, according to the Waco paper.
<The Honeycomb Kid> wrote in message
news:37e008dc...@news.mindspring.com...
> Two allegations of child abuse were made, one by a disgruntled
> ex-Davidian, and one by an ex-husband trying to get full custody of
> his daughter. Both cases were investigated by CPS. No charges were
> filed. No children were removed. No arrests were made. The Justice
> Department said there was no evidence of child abuse at the "compound"
> during the siege, and not enough evidence to arrest Koresh on such
> charges before the raid.
>
> It's bogus.
>
familyvalues
Branch Davidians as a group of people who were intelligent, practical,
courageous, loyal to each other, and protective of their children. But then
WTROE asks us to believe that on April 19 they became stupid yellow-bellied
cowards.
Narrator McNulty tells us: "As the gassing continued, the women and children
went to the safest place left inside Mt. Carmel--the kitchen storage room, a
first floor steel reinforced concrete room--a former vault--at the bottom of
the square wooden tower" (Script, pg. 35).
* The concrete room had no windows and one doorway with no door. It formed a
cul-de-sac, had no ventilation, and would have been a catch basin for the
CS-poisoned air. The concrete room would be the worst possible place to
shelter from the CS. Why would intelligent, practical people send mothers
and children to this place? Why would any mother with a grain of common
sense go there? This story is not believable.
[Note: The above version concerning when the mothers and children went to
the concrete room contradicts other versions. Three Branch Davidians who say
they were at Mt. Carmel during the CS attack have told me in recorded
interviews that they did not see the mothers and children on April 19. Those
people are: Clive Doyle, David Thibodeau, and Graeme Craddock. Clive Doyle
quotes another Davidian, Marjorie Thomas, as saying in sworn testimony that
the mothers and children went to the concrete room the first thing in the
morning on April 19, "on David's orders." From whom did WTROE get its
version of events? The audience is not told.]
* While the mothers had gas masks, the children did not. Imagine--you are a
mother who has a gas mask, but your children and babies do not. So you take
them to a catch basin where the poisoned air can't blow off (the concrete
room) and watch them from behind your gas mask as they choke and splutter
and bubble up their lungs.
WTROE has Davidian attorney Zimmermann tell us: "And I can just see those
kids barfing, vomiting, screaming because you can't possibly have a gas mask
that will fit a little kid." (Script, pg. 32).
Yet the moms stayed and watched? This story is not believable.
* Speaking of one tank spraying the CS, Clive Doyle says: "They actually
drove right through the middle of the building into the kitchen area
basically at point blank range fired gas into the concrete, what they called
the bunker, the concrete room where the women and children were." (Script,
pg. 35.)
Let's examine this. A tank had smashed its way to the concrete room to spray
the CS. The path made by the retreating tank would have crushed any debris
that might have blocked an exit, and would have created an ideal path for
mothers and children to flee from the choking CS. Realize that the fire had
not broken out by then, and the cyanide "from the CS" was not yet released
and the mothers and children had not yet "died of cyanide poisoning." Yet
they did not try to escape. The mothers opted to stay inside the concrete
room with their children and babies "barfing, vomiting, screaming" until the
fire broke out and they died of cyanide poisoning. Believable? No, this
story is not easy to believe.
* Meanwhile, when the fire broke out, the other non-mother-and- children
Davidians who were situated close to the concrete room callously abandoned
the mothers (with gas masks) and their children (in death throes) and headed
out the back of the building in an attempt to save their yellow hides,
whereupon they were promptly mowed down by machine guns.
But . . . why did the would-be escapees not take the mothers and children
with them? Were they not a tight-knit, courageous community?
* Throughout the morning none of the surviving Davidians checked on the
mothers and children in the concrete room.
David Thibodeau says: "At 12:00 someone yelled from the upstairs that there
was a fire. The front I could not get to because of what the tanks had come
in [sic] so I went to the stairwell in the back because I'm thinking of the
kids, I'm thinking Serenity Sea Jones, I was thinking of Isaiah and Joseph
and some of these kids that I've come to know and love. There was a cat walk
that was leading over the rafters of the church area I got to a blanket I
opened the blanket up and a wall of flame shoots down the hallway in front
of my face . . . " (Script, pg. 37.)
David Thibodeau has claimed he was married to Michelle Jones, and loved her
three children, Serenity Sea, Chica, and Little One. If so, how believable
is it that he waited for a fire to break out before he checked on them that
morning? After all, he knew the children did not have gas masks. If the
concrete room was the best place to be during the CS attack, why was he not
there with them? If the concrete room was not the best place to be during
the CS attack, why did David not have Michelle and the three children with
him? After all, he escaped! David Thibodeau's story is not believable.
* At one point the narrator says of the CS: "Boot camp trainees are briefly
exposed to a mild amount of CS for a few seconds. The Davidians received
more than ten times that dosage--more than twice the amount known to be
fatal--for more than six hours." (Script, pg. 31),
Hold that frame. There is no record that any of the surviving Branch
Davidians received treatment for CS poisoning. How can this be explained?
When this writer asked Clive Doyle about the effects of CS on him, Clive
replied he ran and got a sweater after the attack started, and the extra
clothing protected him. Now in WTROE Clive tells us: "We would move the
opposite way to get away, as far away from direct contact with it as
possible, if you got it on your skin, an exposed skin would just burn the
heck out of you. Felt kind of like battery acid of something like that. Very
irritating, very painful." (Script, pg. 35). But still, despite the length
and intensity of the CS attack, Clive needed no treatment.
Another Branch Davidian survivor reported that the concentration of CS
varied, depending on where you were in the building. If this is true, one is
again left asking why the mothers and children were led to the concrete
room, the cul-de-sac with no ventilation. Why didn't they move from room to
room too, depending on the atmosphere, as this survivor did?
Mildred Pierce <mildre...@popamericana.com> wrote in message
news:BFTD3.1542$Kl.1...@news3.mia...
Mark Balcom
>
> Yankee33 <Yank...@5iron.com> wrote in message
> news:7rmi2f$7g9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com..
> > Joe Long <joe...@bainbridge.net> wrote:
> > > If this is how you truely feel... then I hope you and your's are the
> > players in
> > > the next Waco...
> >
> >
> > I'm sorry that you don't have the capacity to weigh both sides of a
> > situation without wishing people dead when they don't share your point
> > of view. "Me" and "Mine" won't be starting a child molesting,
> > brainwashing cult anytime soon. I must be doing something right because
> > Zog, The Man and his buddy, The Gubbmint, aren't spying on me. Can you
> > say the same?
>
> But you might forget to pay some taxes.. after all that is what those
> Federal agents were doing there that warm winter day.. Being a "child
> molesting" (thats bullshit, no proof) brainwashing cult (cult? what is
> that?) isn't going to get you in trouble with the Federal Government..
> --
> http://mp3.com/mildredpierce -- http://popamericana.com
> http://anarchanon.cjb.net -- icq# 30816451
How does he know that the government isn't "spying" on him?
Perhaps he is unaware of that many government regulations?
Fortunately we were able to aply enough pressure to avoid having the IRS
"investigate" every time we made or changed an investment, or were paid a
bonus.
Mark
familyvalues
Robyn Bunds, 23, a former cult member, said Howell told the story as if he
These are just a "few". I'm sure you'll have an excuse for Vern
though.
<The Honeycomb Kid> wrote in message
news:37e008dc...@news.mindspring.com...
> Two allegations of child abuse were made, one by a disgruntled
> ex-Davidian, and one by an ex-husband trying to get full custody of
> his daughter. Both cases were investigated by CPS. No charges were
> filed. No children were removed. No arrests were made. The Justice
> Department said there was no evidence of child abuse at the "compound"
> during the siege, and not enough evidence to arrest Koresh on such
> charges before the raid.
>
> It's bogus.
>
> "Mildred Pierce" <mildre...@popamericana.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > familyvalues <family...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:xbMD3.5286$Ud2.1...@typhoon1.rdc-detw.rr.com...
> > > Mildred Pierce <mildre...@popamericana.com> wrote in message
> > > news:oqGD3.982$cz.3...@news2.mia...
> > > >
> > > > Yankee33 <Yank...@5iron.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:7rmi2f$7g9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
PLMerite
Lucifer wrote in message <0VWD3.16927$x17.2...@news1.rdc1.ab.home.com>...
>
>The Honeycomb Kid wrote in message
>>Two allegations of child abuse were made, one by a disgruntled
>>ex-Davidian, and one by an ex-husband trying to get full custody of
>>his daughter. Both cases were investigated by CPS. No charges were
>>filed. No children were removed. No arrests were made. The Justice
>>Department said there was no evidence of child abuse at the "compound"
>>during the siege, and not enough evidence to arrest Koresh on such
>>charges before the raid.
>>
>>It's bogus.
>
>form Lt.s and right hand man. The CPS went there three times and found
>plenty of proof, but wanted to wait to collect more evidence. The
conditions
>of living there alone were enough to make a case, but wanted to use the sex
>abuse to make sure that he would be put away.
>
>Check it out
Ma Richards' Child Protective Services people went to the Davidian
"compound" and saw with their own eyes evidence of child abuse and didn't do
anything?
"Collect more evidence?" You mean allow a child to remain in danger,
perhaps to get raped again just so they can make a better case?
As low an opinion as I already have of social workers, attorneys and cops, I
find it hard to believe.
But I guess this is the same mentality that allowed them to pump tear gas
into the building so that the parents would come out when they saw their
children choking to death.
If this is an example of what they do "for the children," I don't think I
want them to care about me.
Regards, PLMerite
James Perkins
was an Air Force Lt. Colonel that worked at White Sands Missile Range. His
job: smart bombs and demolitions. His response to the OK city bombing: No
way fertilizer would cause that kind of damage.
James Perkins
familyvalues wrote in message ...
Lucifer
Mildred Pierce wrote in message ...
>
>Lucifer <for...@pandemonium.hel> wrote in message
>>
>> Mildred Pierce wrote in message ...
>> >
>> >news:7rmi2f$7g9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>> >> In article <37DE7F40...@bainbridge.net>,
>> >> Joe Long <joe...@bainbridge.net> wrote:
>> >> > If this is how you truely feel... then I hope you and your's are the
>> >> players in
>> >> > the next Waco...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I'm sorry that you don't have the capacity to weigh both sides of a
>> >> situation without wishing people dead when they don't share your point
>> >> of view. "Me" and "Mine" won't be starting a child molesting,
>> >> brainwashing cult anytime soon. I must be doing something right
because
>> >> Zog, The Man and his buddy, The Gubbmint, aren't spying on me. Can you
>> >> say the same?
>> >
>> >But you might forget to pay some taxes.. after all that is what those
>> >Federal agents were doing there that warm winter day.. Being a "child
>> >molesting" (thats bullshit, no proof) brainwashing cult (cult? what is
>> >that?) isn't going to get you in trouble with the Federal Government..
>>
>>
>> And why dont you write, or phone the childrens health serveses in Waco
and
>> ask them yourselves what thier imressions of child molestation was?
>
>They found that there was no basis for those allegations
Thats not true. I spoke to them yesterday. Youre free to call as well to
find this out
>
>
Lucifer
Lucifer
>Ma Richards' Child Protective Services people went to the Davidian
>"compound" and saw with their own eyes evidence of child abuse and didn't
do
>anything?
You can find evidence, only to have it thrown out of court. It has to be
rock solid
>
>"Collect more evidence?" You mean allow a child to remain in danger,
>perhaps to get raped again just so they can make a better case?
Good exsample. What if CPS went around nabbing everyone that SEEMS to be
causing child abouse. You have to back it up. Its a serious offence and its
not easy saying theres nothing you can do. Criminals have more rights than I
care to count.
split_pea_with_bacon
charges, remove the children, arrest somebody, something, anything?
split_pea_with_bacon
bothered to spell the guy's name right. Get a life. Get a clue. Get a
bowl of soup.
Lucifer
>bothered to spell the guy's name right. Get a life. Get a clue. Get a
>bowl of soup.
I'm not lying. You are. And anyone is free to find out if you are. If you
phone and ask...and if anyone else does..they would tell you that some guy
did call and asked and they would tell you what they told me.
So check it out. You obviously havent.
and if the name is spelled wrong, its the spelling that the officer at the
sheriffs dept gave to me.
Well..you call them...and you tell us all what they told you.
Rick Davis
<family...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I suppose you believe Tim McVeigh didn't blow up a federal building either,
>right?
Perhaps you can explain how Koresh was able to compare the end of
times to the LA riots prior to the event?
Was this a vision from god?
Rick
split_pea_with_bacon
your bill. I don't need to call on my nickel to know that there were
two allegations of child abuse, or to know that these allegations were
investigated (as they should be) by the responsible authorities. I
also don't need to make a call on my nickel to know that your
statement, "The conditions of living there alone were enough to make a
case, but wanted to use the sex abuse to make sure that he would be
or someone remarkably stupid at CPS lied to you.
If an investigator has "plenty of proof," and "enough [evidence] to
make a case" of child abuse, as you claim, but makes no case -- no-one
was arrested, no-one was charged, no children were removed, the
investigation was stopped -- that in itself should constitute child
endangerment, and lead to presecution against the CPS agents involved.
familyvalues
news:37e0...@news.snowhill.com...
> Not with a truck bomb...too many experts say no way. My ex-wife's father
> was an Air Force Lt. Colonel that worked at White Sands Missile Range.
His
> job: smart bombs and demolitions. His response to the OK city bombing: No
> way fertilizer would cause that kind of damage.
>
> James Perkins
>
Sorry James, but this wasn't a cherry bomb. It was a 4,000-pound bomb -- a
weapon of mass destruction made of a Ryder truck, blasting caps, fuel oil
and ammonium nitrate fertilizer mixed with nitromethane -- a bomb that would
be twice as powerful as one mixed with fuel oil. A receipt for one ton of
ammonium nitrate fertilizer, the major bomb ingredient, was found in
Nichols' Herington, Kan., home. Timothy McVeigh's fingerprints were on it.
J.R. Bigger
1. What experts...please provide cites for your sources.
2. Would you be willing to admit grain dust can cause massive damage?
If not, then explain grain elevator explosions that cause the damage they
do.
3. Same with a BLEVE event...Propane tanks maybe 1/4 to 1/2 full
exploding and launching pieces up to a mile away.
As with every thing, its the size of the bomb that matters as much as what
its made out of.
NOW...tell me what you think he used or what you theory on the bombing is.
jrb
James Perkins wrote in message <37e0...@news.snowhill.com>...
J.R. Bigger
that logic, we would have to blame the NRA and the Constitution for every
homocide committed with a firearm. Let be for real here. McVeigh was
nothing more than a coward who took it upon himself to blow up the building.
Let not make him a victim of anything.
JRB
PLMerite wrote in message <7rr94b$h66$1...@winter.news.rcn.net>...
>
>>On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 17:32:17 GMT, "familyvalues"
>><family...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>I suppose you believe Tim McVeigh didn't blow up a federal building
either,
>>right?
>
>
>I believe that if Waco had not happened or if Reno and company had been
held
>responsible for their actions then Tim McVeigh most probably wouldn't have
>blown up a federal building for revenge.
>
>There's a lot of blood on Reno's shaky hands.
>
>Regards, PLMerite
>
>
>
>
Lucifer
Split Pea with Bacon wrote in message
<37e10d90...@news.mindspring.com>...
>Please post your phone card number, so I can put the long distance on
>your bill. I don't need to call on my nickel to know that there were
>two allegations of child abuse, or to know that these allegations were
>investigated (as they should be) by the responsible authorities. I
>also don't need to make a call on my nickel to know that your
>statement, "The conditions of living there alone were enough to make a
>case, but wanted to use the sex abuse to make sure that he would be
>put away," had better not be true. Either you're lying (most likely)
>or someone remarkably stupid at CPS lied to you.
Still dont want to find out for yourself?
I'm sure the call would bankrupt you. If I'm lying, than I would have to
have everyone who calls there lie for me too, or the cps.
and why would they lie? Why would cps tell me a lie?
>
>If an investigator has "plenty of proof," and "enough [evidence] to
>make a case" of child abuse, as you claim, but makes no case -- no-one
>was arrested, no-one was charged, no children were removed, the
>investigation was stopped -- that in itself should constitute child
>endangerment, and lead to presecution against the CPS agents involved.
Not at all...walk down to your local court house and ask if evedence was
ever thrown out...ask if a case was lost because the evedence wasnt
enough..ask if the DA ever wanted to sit longer to make sure that it was a
sound case..or a lawyer threaten that the evedence wouldnt hold up.
BUT MOST OF ALL..if you say you dont want to spend a dime on a phone
call...then look up a case of a girl who was all over the TV. I cant
remember her name but I'm sure you'll find it. She was a famous poster girl
for kids who were sick, and she was sick all the time and doctors could not
figure out why. The suspected chil;d abuse, and begane colllecting evedence
for OVER a year. Nearly two. Only then did they go to court and its been in
court foir three years.
If you dont want to spend a dime...call your LOCAL cps services and ask if
they have ever had a case where they could tell that there was child abuse,
but had to painfully wait untill acting on it.
I'm sure they have lots.
Again...anyone is free to check this easy fact out.
Ge back to me when you have
Michael Shirley
>was an Air Force Lt. Colonel that worked at White Sands Missile Range. His
>job: smart bombs and demolitions. His response to the OK city bombing: No
>way fertilizer would cause that kind of damage.
It wasn't straight ANFO. The guy cooked up some home rolled Kinnepac,
which is more powerful than TNT, given that it's based on amine type
chemistry.
The FBI thought that they were being cute by lying and leaving out the
other ingredients in the bomb, but all that they seem to have accomplished
is to create more red herrings while putting yet another nail in the coffin
of
their own credibility.
PLMerite
J.R. Bigger wrote in message <48cE3.392$IN....@news2.randori.com>...
>Now theres a stretch...Reno's to blame for the actions of a coward. Using
>that logic, we would have to blame the NRA and the Constitution for every
>homocide committed with a firearm. Let be for real here. McVeigh was
>nothing more than a coward who took it upon himself to blow up the
building.
>Let not make him a victim of anything.
>
>JRB
Hey, even cowards have motives, and Clinton/Reno seem to be happy to supply
lots of them.
Regards, PLMerite
Kev
enough for you?
PLMerite <stoc...@smokebomb.hill> wrote in message
news:7rr8om$eus$1...@winter.news.rcn.net...
>
> familyvalues wrote in message ...
> I generally question any non-firearms-savvy woman's identification of a
> "machine gun," especially one that has many semi-auto-only clones, and her
> response to leading quesitons about "very rapid fire."
>
> Especially since no "machine guns" or provable "machine gun parts" have
been
> produced for independent verification.
>
> As far as Howell/Koresh fathering children by young girls, has any DNA
> testing been done that would back up these allegations, or did all this
> evidence (the children) also conveniently burn up on April 19, 1993?
>
>
> Regards, PLMerite
>
>
>
>
bob
>
> Two allegations of child abuse were made, one by a disgruntled
> ex-Davidian, and one by an ex-husband trying to get full custody of
> his daughter. Both cases were investigated by CPS. No charges were
> filed. No children were removed. No arrests were made. The Justice
> Department said there was no evidence of child abuse at the "compound"
> during the siege, and not enough evidence to arrest Koresh on such
> charges before the raid.
>
> It's bogus.
>
You forgot to mention that the ATF is a tax enforcement agency, part of
the US Dept of Treasury, and child abuse/molestation is outside of their
jurisdiction. Even if such accussations were true the ATF does NOT have
jurisdiction to go investigate it.
I would also encourage everyone to re-think the FBI's stated reason for
their final raid and explaination of how the plan was suppose to work.
Basically the FBI and Janet Reno said the kids inside Waco were being
abused and neglected to the FBI was forced to act in order to stop the
children's sufferring.
Their plan to end the children's sufferring was to torture the children
by gasing the buildings for 48 hours in an effort to stimulate the
parent's "motherly instincts" to protect their children. The mothers
would witness their children being tortured by the effects of the gas
and this would cause them to want to surrender and leave the residence
in order to get their babies fresh air...
bob
James Perkins
you understand what I am saying here. We are talking the difference between
and explosion that was outside the building and would have taken the easiest
route: down the street.
The pictures he had showed me were of concrete torn off rebar, steel
re-inforced columns blown apart. Read up on demolitions.....actually, read
this document:
http://www.constitution.org/ocbpt/ocbpt.txt
Don't try to cloud the issue with whether he had a bomb or not, he probably
did. I am just saying that his fertilizer bomb that could fit in a ryder
truck would not bring that building down like it did. There had to be more
than a lone bomb. That building was very strong and you just couldn't put
enough explosives in that truck....
Samuel Cohen (Inventor of the Neutron Bomb (not to be confused with the Atom
Bomb)):
"It would have been absolutely impossible and against the laws of nature for
a truck full of fertilizer and fuel oil… no matter how much was used… to
bring the building down. "
Retired US Air Force General Brenton K. Partin:
Partin has exhaustively researched the bombing and the resulting pattern of
damage.
In a letter dated May 17, 1995, hand-delivered to each member of the
Congress and Senate, Partin stated: When I first saw the pictures of the
truck-bomb’s asymmetrical damage to the Federal Building, my immediate
reaction was that the pattern of damage would have been technically
impossible without supplementing demolition charges at some of the
reinforcing concrete column bases…. For a simplistic blast truck-bomb, of
the size and composition reported, to be able to reach out on the order of
60 feet and collapse a reinforced column base the size of column A-7 is
beyond credulity.
Dr. Roger Raubach (Ph.D in Physical Chemistry, Research Faculty: Stanford
Univ.):
"General Partin’s assessment is absolutely correct. I don’t care
if they pulled up a semi-trailer truck with 20 tons of ammonium-nitrate; it
wouldn’t do the damage we saw there."
Oklahoma City was a terrible tragedy. I feel for the families and people
that suffered from it. I also feel that the whole thing was swept under the
carpet and, except for the sensationalism, given very poor scrutiny by the
press who were unaccountably too involved in O.J. at the time.
We knew every aspect of the OJ murder. We heard constant details, facts,
summations, inquiries ad nauseum about this tragic yet overhyped murder
investigation.
Why didn't that same attention to detail apply in Oklahoma City?
This is not intended to insult you or for you to take it as such. I am just
asking that we wake, turn off CNN and company and ask some serious questions
about everything. I don't see cover-ups and conspiracies everywhere and
wish I were more inclined to accept everything that I hear. I have been
cursed with intelligence and a strong desire for truth and knowledge. The
fact that people do conspire for their own aims goes back as far as Adam and
Eve. The fact that those in power will hold on to power and those that
don't will kill to get it goes back to Cain and Abel. The fact that those
who are oppressed seek an answer to their oppression goes back to Moses.
This is nothing new.
The fact that anyone who questions objectives of powerful entities and
individuals is labeled a "Conspiracy Nut" and paranoid keeps many sheep from
wandering off. Hopefully, one day, Oklahoma City will get a truly decent
investigation and not another Government sanctioned whitewash.
James Perkins
James Perkins
there were never any indications of "kinnepac" or "amine type chemistry".
Care to elaborate?
James Perkins
Michael Shirley wrote in message <37e1...@news.greatbasin.net>...
>
>James Perkins wrote in message <37e0...@news.snowhill.com>...
>>Not with a truck bomb...too many experts say no way. My ex-wife's father
>>was an Air Force Lt. Colonel that worked at White Sands Missile Range.
His
>>job: smart bombs and demolitions. His response to the OK city bombing: No
>>way fertilizer would cause that kind of damage.
>
split_pea_with_bacon
> Not at all...walk down to your local court house and ask if evedence was
> ever thrown out...ask if a case was lost because the evedence wasnt
> enough..ask if the DA ever wanted to sit longer to make sure that it was a
> sound case..or a lawyer threaten that the evedence wouldnt hold up.
> The CPS went there three times and found plenty of proof, but wanted to
> enough to make a case, but wanted to use the sex abuse to make sure
> that he would be put away.
That's a lie.
By the way, if you don't even have a grasp of the basic proper nouns
-- like the name Kiri Jewell -- why should anyone take you for
anything but a ninny?
familyvalues
Lucifer
Split Pea with Bacon wrote in message
>Silly lying woman, this ---
>> Not at all...walk down to your local court house and ask if evedence was
>> ever thrown out...ask if a case was lost because the evedence wasnt
>> enough..ask if the DA ever wanted to sit longer to make sure that it was
a
>> sound case..or a lawyer threaten that the evedence wouldnt hold up.
>is not what I was disputing. It was this --
>> The CPS went there three times and found plenty of proof, but wanted to
>> wait to collect more evidence. The conditions of living there alone were
>> enough to make a case, but wanted to use the sex abuse to make sure
>> that he would be put away.
>That's a lie.
>
>By the way, if you don't even have a grasp of the basic proper nouns
>-- like the name Kiri Jewell -- why should anyone take you for
>anything but a ninny?
Well Sally, prove me wrong. You shoot your mouth off but dont back it up.
Bottom line is you wont call the Waco CPS services and post what they tell
you because you know it would make you out to be a lier.
Dont want to spend the money on long distance....then you phone any local
cps service and ask them if what I said is true, give the name of who you
called and I'll call them.
Get back to me when you do
PLMerite
familyvalues wrote in message ...
Unavenged deaths of innocents.
Regards, PLMerite
PLMerite
Kev wrote in message <7rslri$2t...@enews2.newsguy.com>...
>Isn't Koresh's lawyer admission that there was automatic weapons there good
>enough for you?
I never heard Koresh's lawyer admit there were automatic weapons there.
When did this happen?
And it shouldn't be difficult for the ATF to produce these "automatic
weapons" since any that were there on the day of the FUBAR raid were still
there the day of the inferno.
...and just as an aside, how many untaxed "machine guns" at $200/weapon
could he have had to justify the million-dollar raid by the Treasury
department?
Regards, PLMerite
familyvalues
Then Vern should've let them go.
> Regards, PLMerite
>
>
>
>
familyvalues
news:37E19EDB...@nospam.org...
Interesting.....but read this:
Early in the presentation, pieces of the collage that is WTROE shows us the
Branch Davidians as a group of people who were intelligent, practical,
courageous, loyal to each other, and protective of their children. But then
WTROE asks us to believe that on April 19 they became stupid yellow-bellied
cowards.
Narrator McNulty tells us: "As the gassing continued, the women and children
went to the safest place left inside Mt. Carmel--the kitchen storage room, a
first floor steel reinforced concrete room--a former vault--at the bottom of
the square wooden tower" (Script, pg. 35).
* The concrete room had no windows and one doorway with no door. It formed a
cul-de-sac, had no ventilation, and would have been a catch basin for the
CS-poisoned air. The concrete room would be the worst possible place to
shelter from the CS. Why would intelligent, practical people send mothers
and children to this place? Why would any mother with a grain of common
sense go there? This story is not believable.
[Note: The above version concerning when the mothers and children went to
the concrete room contradicts other versions. Three Branch Davidians who say
they were at Mt. Carmel during the CS attack have told me in recorded
interviews that they did not see the mothers and children on April 19. Those
people are: Clive Doyle, David Thibodeau, and Graeme Craddock. Clive Doyle
quotes another Davidian, Marjorie Thomas, as saying in sworn testimony that
the mothers and children went to the concrete room the first thing in the
morning on April 19, "on David's orders." From whom did WTROE get its
version of events? The audience is not told.]
* While the mothers had gas masks, the children did not. Imagine--you are a
mother who has a gas mask, but your children and babies do not. So you take
them to a catch basin where the poisoned air can't blow off (the concrete
room) and watch them from behind your gas mask as they choke and splutter
and bubble up their lungs.
WTROE has Davidian attorney Zimmermann tell us: "And I can just see those
kids barfing, vomiting, screaming because you can't possibly have a gas mask
that will fit a little kid." (Script, pg. 32).
Yet the moms stayed and watched? This story is not believable.
* Speaking of one tank spraying the CS, Clive Doyle says: "They actually
drove right through the middle of the building into the kitchen area
basically at point blank range fired gas into the concrete, what they called
the bunker, the concrete room where the women and children were." (Script,
pg. 35.)
Let's examine this. A tank had smashed its way to the concrete room to spray
the CS. The path made by the retreating tank would have crushed any debris
that might have blocked an exit, and would have created an ideal path for
mothers and children to flee from the choking CS. Realize that the fire had
not broken out by then, and the cyanide "from the CS" was not yet released
and the mothers and children had not yet "died of cyanide poisoning." Yet
they did not try to escape. The mothers opted to stay inside the concrete
room with their children and babies "barfing, vomiting, screaming" until the
fire broke out and they died of cyanide poisoning. Believable? No, this
story is not easy to believe.
* Meanwhile, when the fire broke out, the other non-mother-and- children
Davidians who were situated close to the concrete room callously abandoned
the mothers (with gas masks) and their children (in death throes) and headed
out the back of the building in an attempt to save their yellow hides,
whereupon they were promptly mowed down by machine guns.
But . . . why did the would-be escapees not take the mothers and children
with them? Were they not a tight-knit, courageous community?
* Throughout the morning none of the surviving Davidians checked on the
mothers and children in the concrete room.
David Thibodeau says: "At 12:00 someone yelled from the upstairs that there
was a fire. The front I could not get to because of what the tanks had come
in [sic] so I went to the stairwell in the back because I'm thinking of the
kids, I'm thinking Serenity Sea Jones, I was thinking of Isaiah and Joseph
and some of these kids that I've come to know and love. There was a cat walk
that was leading over the rafters of the church area I got to a blanket I
opened the blanket up and a wall of flame shoots down the hallway in front
of my face . . . " (Script, pg. 37.)
David Thibodeau has claimed he was married to Michelle Jones, and loved her
three children, Serenity Sea, Chica, and Little One. If so, how believable
is it that he waited for a fire to break out before he checked on them that
morning? After all, he knew the children did not have gas masks. If the
concrete room was the best place to be during the CS attack, why was he not
there with them? If the concrete room was not the best place to be during
the CS attack, why did David not have Michelle and the three children with
him? After all, he escaped! David Thibodeau's story is not believable.
* At one point the narrator says of the CS: "Boot camp trainees are briefly
exposed to a mild amount of CS for a few seconds. The Davidians received
more than ten times that dosage--more than twice the amount known to be
fatal--for more than six hours." (Script, pg. 31),
Hold that frame. There is no record that any of the surviving Branch
Davidians received treatment for CS poisoning. How can this be explained?
When this writer asked Clive Doyle about the effects of CS on him, Clive
replied he ran and got a sweater after the attack started, and the extra
clothing protected him. Now in WTROE Clive tells us: "We would move the
opposite way to get away, as far away from direct contact with it as
possible, if you got it on your skin, an exposed skin would just burn the
heck out of you. Felt kind of like battery acid of something like that. Very
irritating, very painful." (Script, pg. 35). But still, despite the length
and intensity of the CS attack, Clive needed no treatment.
Another Branch Davidian survivor reported that the concentration of CS
varied, depending on where you were in the building. If this is true, one is
again left asking why the mothers and children were led to the concrete
room, the cul-de-sac with no ventilation. Why didn't they move from room to
room too, depending on the atmosphere, as this survivor did?
Rick Davis
<family...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Interesting.....but read this:
>
>Early in the presentation,
<snip>
You really have no shame at all.
Our friend "familyvalues" is plagerising the Waco Holocaust Museum
who wrote this piece to discredit a movie so they could advance their
theory that the Davidians were killed by ZOG.
Rick
familyvalues
news:11C1D0ADDAEE6CDF.17F48508...@lp.airnews.net...
> >
> >Early in the presentation,
>
> You really have no shame at all.
>
> Our friend "familyvalues" is plagerising the Waco Holocaust Museum
> who wrote this piece to discredit a movie so they could advance their
> theory that the Davidians were killed by ZOG.
>
Uh, Rick? If I was plagarizing, why would I leave in the page numbers of
the scripts and say "read this" where it specifically talks about the ROE?
Duhhh........Usually, when someone plagarizes, I would opine they're not
this sloppy? I never claimed to have written it.
You don't need to discredit a "movie". If anything, it was a work of
fiction. It wasn't even a documentary, but more like a made-for-tv movie.
It was trash. You know it, and so do alot of others. But keep covering
your eyes and ears. Maybe it will go away for you. I doubt it.
>
> Rick
>
Joe Long
bob wrote:
additionally... I watched WTROE tonight. I was astounded by the fact that
Koresh is on the phone to offer an inspection of his Church to the BATF
office - and the BATF officer in charge says "no - I can't talk to Koresh -
what are you doing? (to another BATF officer)" Clearly this is an
indication that the Raid had already been planned weeks before Feb. 28th.
Taking this into consideration casts some extremely dark shadows over the
entire issue. The two most probable reasons for the BATF raiding the Church
that I can see are:
1) Publicity - The BATF was looking for that appropriation money from Unka
Sam - a glorious victory over a religious group who could easily be
demonized in the media was perfect. The problem with this scenario is the
fact that they came in shooting.
2) They were actually scared of Koresh. Here is a man who has a following of
not crazy people but everyday ordinary people. A harvard graduate who
studied theology was a there studying/believing Davidian theology. David
Koresh was not a cult leader. He was a religious leader who taught the
Bible. But this religious leader was doing something most don't. He and some
of his followers were trading weapons. They believed that Armegeddon was
eminant and the weapons were protection against the great Babylon. They were
not out to overthrow the government. Besides that they were a lucritive
business venture. So, we have a chrismatic religious leader with a flock
that is growing and a self sufficient community that sets an example for
others to follow which our gov't could see as a problem. Can you imagine if
people start following Koresh's example of community and religious
teachings. All that the Davidians wanted was a simple life, living out God's
word and not bothering anyone.
I heard the gov't had a file on John Lennon... who knows?
--
jgl
they're coming for our guns.
they won't succeed, but they will come.
.
In A Gif:
http://www.bainbridge.net/members/joelong/
Searcher:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/1840/
Joe's World:
http://surf.to/joelong
Albert Isham
>
>The, Honeycomb, Kid wrote:
>>
>> Two allegations of child abuse were made, one by a disgruntled
>> ex-Davidian, and one by an ex-husband trying to get full custody of
>> his daughter. Both cases were investigated by CPS. No charges were
>> filed. No children were removed. No arrests were made. The Justice
>> Department said there was no evidence of child abuse at the "compound"
>> during the siege, and not enough evidence to arrest Koresh on such
>> charges before the raid.
>>
>> It's bogus.
>>
>
>You forgot to mention that the ATF is a tax enforcement agency, part of
>the US Dept of Treasury, and child abuse/molestation is outside of their
>jurisdiction. Even if such accussations were true the ATF does NOT have
>jurisdiction to go investigate it.
>
>
>I would also encourage everyone to re-think the FBI's stated reason for
>their final raid and explaination of how the plan was suppose to work.
>
>Basically the FBI and Janet Reno said the kids inside Waco were being
>abused and neglected to the FBI was forced to act in order to stop the
>children's sufferring.
>
>Their plan to end the children's sufferring was to torture the children
>by gasing the buildings for 48 hours in an effort to stimulate the
>parent's "motherly instincts" to protect their children. The mothers
>would witness their children being tortured by the effects of the gas
>and this would cause them to want to surrender and leave the residence
>in order to get their babies fresh air...
1. Male cult members gave their wives to David Koresh.
2. DK was sexually abusing children as young as ten.
3. DK had denied a state social worker accompanied by a sheriff's deputy
permission to enter the compound and interview alleged victims of sexual abuse.
Robert Frenchu
None of which- if true- is under Federal jurisdiction, as you well
know, Albert.
--
If my "assault rifle" makes me a criminal
And my encryption program makes me a terrorist
Does Dianne Feinstein's vagina make her a prostitute?
Ian Mac Lure
[SNIP]
Not that I in any way endorce Mr Howell's chosen lifestyle.
: 1. Male cult members gave their wives to David Koresh.
It takes two to tango Al.
: 2. DK was sexually abusing children as young as ten.
And the evidence for this occuring at the time was?
: 3. DK had denied a state social worker accompanied by a sheriff's deputy
: permission to enter the compound and interview alleged victims of sexual
: abuse.
Did they have a warrant to enter the premises?
Aren't you always whining about due process ( or what you claim
is due process ).
Do you realise you are an idiot.
We know the Feds lied to obtain military involvement and
recently it appears that wasn't all they lied about.
Dazbog only knows where this will end.
--
*******************************************************************
***** Ian B MacLure ***** Sunnyvale, CA ***** Engineer/Archer *****
* No Times Like The Maritimes *************************************
*******************************************************************
* Opinions Expressed Here Are Mine. That's Mine , Mine, MINE ******
*******************************************************************
PLMerite
familyvalues wrote in message ...
>PLMerite <stoc...@smokebomb.hill> wrote in message
>> Hey, even cowards have motives, and Clinton/Reno seem to be happy to
>supply lots of them.
>>
>> Regards, PLMerite
>> >>
>> >Which motives did they supply to McVeigh?
>>
>>
>> Unavenged deaths of innocents.
>>
>
>Then Vern should've let them go.
It was possible to place the blame on Vern and get away with it so that made
any bonehead move the ATF/FBI made okay?
I guess McVeigh didn't see it that way...and he had the wherewithall to do
something about it, even if his target selection was extreme. But I notice
the Feds have refrained from doing it again.
Regards, PLMerite
J.R. Bigger
What you're saying is that someone is justified commiting the murders of
160+ men, women and children because of a perceived fault surrounding a
totally unrelated situation. The perceived fault is not (at the time)
supported by anything other than rumor and speculation by fringe elements.
Very very dangerous idea there guy. Essentially, following your logic,
I could have killed McVeighs parents before his conviction because of the
unavenged deaths of innocents. Oh and everyone else connected with the case
on McVeighs side.
PLMerite wrote in message <7rssns$r2s$1...@winter.news.rcn.net>...
>
>familyvalues wrote in message ...
>>PLMerite <stoc...@smokebomb.hill> wrote in message
>>news:7rs65h$nli$1...@winter.news.rcn.net...
>>>
>>> J.R. Bigger wrote in message <48cE3.392$IN....@news2.randori.com>...
>>> >Now theres a stretch...Reno's to blame for the actions of a coward.
>>Using
>>> >that logic, we would have to blame the NRA and the Constitution for
>every
>>> >homocide committed with a firearm. Let be for real here. McVeigh was
>>> >nothing more than a coward who took it upon himself to blow up the
>>> building.
>>> >Let not make him a victim of anything.
>>> >
>>> >JRB
>>>
>>>
>>> Hey, even cowards have motives, and Clinton/Reno seem to be happy to
>>supply
>>> lots of them.
>>>
>>> Regards, PLMerite
>>>
>>Which motives did they supply to McVeigh?
>
>
>Unavenged deaths of innocents.
>
>Regards, PLMerite
>
>
>
>
>
KD
Joe Long wrote in message <37E23A1F...@bainbridge.net>...
>All that the Davidians wanted was a simple life, living out God's
>word and not bothering anyone.
>I heard the gov't had a file on John Lennon... who knows
I don't see why so many people overlook the obvious possibility: the ATF
and FBI bungled their raids in ways which were probably criminal, and David
Koresh was a major loon who didn't have both feet on the ground. Both can
be true, one doesn't have to conclude that if one side was bad that makes
the other side good.
PLMerite
J.R. Bigger wrote in message <45vE3.5929$IN.1...@news2.randori.com>...
>OK, now lets follow your logic....
>
> What you're saying is that someone is justified commiting the murders
of
>160+ men, women and children because of a perceived fault surrounding a
>totally unrelated situation. The perceived fault is not (at the time)
>supported by anything other than rumor and speculation by fringe elements.
I didn't say "justified," I said "motives." There's a difference, like
between "reason" and "excuse."
A lot of people saw Waco as evidence of a government which felt that it
could run roughshod over people - people with Constitutional Rights - whom
it considered (and could demonize in the media as) unpopular, "fringe"
groups.
Clinton/Reno had two years to set things right by punishing ("taking full
responsibility") those responsible for planning, authorizing and executing
this strategy.
I guess McVeigh got tired of waiting. That's the chance the government
took, and OKC is what they got.
Makes one wonder, if McVeigh had been able to take out solely ATF agents (I
don't know whether they have offices not sheltered by floors of other
government workers), anyone would have cared.
> Very very dangerous idea there guy. Essentially, following your logic,
>I could have killed McVeighs parents before his conviction because of the
>unavenged deaths of innocents. Oh and everyone else connected with the
case
>on McVeighs side.
Not really. McVeigh's parents were not responsible for punishing him. Your
analogy should be the aggrieved of OKC killing the perceived-relevent Feds
had they decided not to prosecute him. They would have had to stand in line
had that been the case.
There never was any doubt that McVeigh would get a speedy trial. He
certainly got his due process before anyone connected with the Waco debacle
got theirs, if any of them have even to this day (and I mean the Feds, not
the surviving Davidians).
April 19th will never be the same.
Regards, PLMerite
Lone_Wolf
#OK, now lets follow your logic....
# What you're saying is that someone is justified commiting the murders of
#160+ men, women and children because of a perceived fault surrounding a
#totally unrelated situation. The perceived fault is not (at the time)
#supported by anything other than rumor and speculation by fringe elements.
Where did he say McVeigh was JUSTIFIED? He identified the MOTIVATION.
As for the 'perceived fault', a NUMBER of us were discussing the lack of
merit in the original warrant affidavit AND the improper tactics of the
BATF AT THE TIME IT HAPPENED. I even asked a BATF RECRUITER questions about
the warrant THAT YEAR (particularly about the 'full-auto AK upper receivers',
said moron actually claimed that all rifles have an upper receiver, when in
reality, the US Army has only issued one rifle with a two-part receiver this
century as standard (ie, non special operations/special use) gear). Many
of the latest revelations are mere CONFIRMATION of what we'd already guessed,
in a form that those who didn't bother to pay attention would finally listen
to. I knew the BATF was full of crap just from watching how their stories
changed in the first days after the raid, in addition to watching them 'spray
and pray' on tv. Having a BATF spokesperson claim that the BATF didn't use
machineguns at Waco was just icing on the cake.
# Very very dangerous idea there guy. Essentially, following your logic,
#I could have killed McVeighs parents before his conviction because of the
#unavenged deaths of innocents. Oh and everyone else connected with the case
#on McVeighs side.
You really need to work on your reading comprehension skills...
James
#PLMerite wrote in message <7rssns$r2s$1...@winter.news.rcn.net>...
#>
#>familyvalues wrote in message ...
#>>PLMerite <stoc...@smokebomb.hill> wrote in message
#>>news:7rs65h$nli$1...@winter.news.rcn.net...
#>>>
#>>> J.R. Bigger wrote in message <48cE3.392$IN....@news2.randori.com>...
#>>> >Now theres a stretch...Reno's to blame for the actions of a coward.
#>>Using
#>>> >that logic, we would have to blame the NRA and the Constitution for
#>every
#>>> >homocide committed with a firearm. Let be for real here. McVeigh was
#>>> >nothing more than a coward who took it upon himself to blow up the
#>>> building.
#>>> >Let not make him a victim of anything.
#>>> >
#>>> >JRB
#>>>
#>>>
#>>> Hey, even cowards have motives, and Clinton/Reno seem to be happy to
#>>supply
#>>> lots of them.
#>>>
#>>> Regards, PLMerite
#>>>
#>>Which motives did they supply to McVeigh?
#>
#>
#>Unavenged deaths of innocents.
#>
#>Regards, PLMerite
#>
#>
#>
#>
#>
Lucifer
>>> >Which motives did they supply to McVeigh?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Then Vern should've let them go.
>
>
>
>It was possible to place the blame on Vern and get away with it so that
made
>any bonehead move the ATF/FBI made okay?
>
>I guess McVeigh didn't see it that way...and he had the wherewithall to do
>something about it, even if his target selection was extreme.
I find it amazing that you say what the feds did is extreme and should shot
for it...and yet go on to say that "he [McVeigh] had the herewithall to do
something about it." Namely killing innocent people. Whos going to avange
THOSE deaths?
McVeigh is no better than the guy who went into the jewish community center
and shot those kids. When does it end? Does a week pass that I dont hear
about some asshole with a gun going on a shooting spree?
>
>
>
>
>
Lone_Wolf
#>>> >Which motives did they supply to McVeigh?
#>>>
#>>>
#>>> Unavenged deaths of innocents.
#>>>
#>>
#>>Then Vern should've let them go.
#>
#>
#>
#>It was possible to place the blame on Vern and get away with it so that
#made
#>any bonehead move the ATF/FBI made okay?
#>
#>I guess McVeigh didn't see it that way...and he had the wherewithall to do
#>something about it, even if his target selection was extreme.
#I find it amazing that you say what the feds did is extreme and should shot
#for it...and yet go on to say that "he [McVeigh] had the herewithall to do
#something about it." Namely killing innocent people. Whos going to avange
#THOSE deaths?
McVeigh is currently on death row, after having been convicted of multiple
counts of murder and assorted other crimes in connection with the bombing.
The perceived motivation for McVeigh's actions are that those who assaulted
the Mt.Carmel complex and those who pumped it full of lethal doses of tear
gas have not been prosecuted. Do you recognize the difference?
#McVeigh is no better than the guy who went into the jewish community center
#and shot those kids. When does it end? Does a week pass that I dont hear
#about some asshole with a gun going on a shooting spree?
Of course, that means 52 a year (which is higher than has ever happened in
US history), which still means that 59,999,948 gun owners DIDN'T go on a
shooting spree (and that's going with one of the lower estimates of the
number of gun owners in the US) that year.
James
J.R. Bigger
McVeigh got a speedy trial because a) the evidence collected left no doubt
he did it (he was actually pretty dumb the way he did things); b) charges
were filed once the evidence was collected; c) federal laws governing
federal court procedings place a time limit on a trial taking place once aan
individual is charged with a crime.
The question to you would be would you take such an action based on your
perceived lack of vengance (your words, notice how justice is missing) in
any matter?
Tell you what...in my mind, the evidence against one Mr. Simpson was
overwhelming and pointed decisively to his guilt. Yet he walks free. How's
about me and you hunt down those responsible for punishing him (the jurors,
judge, prosecutors) and waste them. See where your logic goes?
Or how about the Ramsey case...I'm tired of waiting for that one...
(and before anyone else thinks otherwise...I would never truly advocate
taking justice into my own hands regardless of the reason, motive,
justification, excuse, or whatever else you want to call it)
PLMerite wrote in message <7ru292$cfj$1...@winter.news.rcn.net>...
>
>J.R. Bigger wrote in message <45vE3.5929$IN.1...@news2.randori.com>...
>>OK, now lets follow your logic....
>>
>> What you're saying is that someone is justified commiting the murders
>of
>>160+ men, women and children because of a perceived fault surrounding a
>>totally unrelated situation. The perceived fault is not (at the time)
>>supported by anything other than rumor and speculation by fringe elements.
>
>
>I didn't say "justified," I said "motives." There's a difference, like
>between "reason" and "excuse."
>
>A lot of people saw Waco as evidence of a government which felt that it
>could run roughshod over people - people with Constitutional Rights - whom
>it considered (and could demonize in the media as) unpopular, "fringe"
>groups.
>
>Clinton/Reno had two years to set things right by punishing ("taking full
>responsibility") those responsible for planning, authorizing and executing
>this strategy.
>
>I guess McVeigh got tired of waiting. That's the chance the government
>took, and OKC is what they got.
>
>Makes one wonder, if McVeigh had been able to take out solely ATF agents (I
>don't know whether they have offices not sheltered by floors of other
>government workers), anyone would have cared.
>
>> Very very dangerous idea there guy. Essentially, following your
logic,
>>I could have killed McVeighs parents before his conviction because of the
>>unavenged deaths of innocents. Oh and everyone else connected with the
>case
Anima
Siege) who has written a statement on the topic -that was a complete lie (rumor)
started by adisgruntled former resident who fed the feds "disinformation"
David said:
"Maybe the most disturbing allegation, to those inside the building, was that
we were engaging in child abuse there. The children of Mount Carmel were
treasured, and they were a vital part of our small society. A disgruntled
former resident, Marc Breault, was the original source of complaints about
the treatment of children, and his wild allegations -- that we were planning
to sacrifice one of our children on Yom Kippur one year -- were unfounded.
Yes, occasionally kids were paddled for misbehaving, but the strict rule was
they could never be paddled in anger. The parents usually did the paddling
themselves. A few former residents also complained that David paddled their
children, harshly, but I never saw that, and the Texas Child Protective
Services workers who investigated the complaints concluded they were
unfounded."
-----------------------------------
The, Honeycomb, Kid wrote:
> Two allegations of child abuse were made, one by a disgruntled
> ex-Davidian, and one by an ex-husband trying to get full custody of
> his daughter. Both cases were investigated by CPS. No charges were
> filed. No children were removed. No arrests were made. The Justice
> Department said there was no evidence of child abuse at the "compound"
> during the siege, and not enough evidence to arrest Koresh on such
> charges before the raid.
>
> It's bogus.
>
> "Mildred Pierce" <mildre...@popamericana.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > familyvalues <family...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:xbMD3.5286$Ud2.1...@typhoon1.rdc-detw.rr.com...
> > > Mildred Pierce <mildre...@popamericana.com> wrote in message
> > > news:oqGD3.982$cz.3...@news2.mia...
> > > >
> > > > Yankee33 <Yank...@5iron.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:7rmi2f$7g9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > > > > In article <37DE7F40...@bainbridge.net>,
> > > > > Joe Long <joe...@bainbridge.net> wrote:
> > > > > > If this is how you truely feel... then I hope you and your's are the
> > > > > players in
> > > > > > the next Waco...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm sorry that you don't have the capacity to weigh both sides of a
> > > > > situation without wishing people dead when they don't share your point
> > > > > of view. "Me" and "Mine" won't be starting a child molesting,
> > > > > brainwashing cult anytime soon. I must be doing something right
> > because
> > > > > Zog, The Man and his buddy, The Gubbmint, aren't spying on me. Can you
> > > > > say the same?
> > > >
> > > > But you might forget to pay some taxes.. after all that is what those
> > > > Federal agents were doing there that warm winter day.. Being a "child
> > > > molesting" (thats bullshit, no proof) brainwashing cult (cult? what is
> > > > that?) isn't going to get you in trouble with the Federal Government..
> > > > --
> > >
> > > Maybe you can tell Keri Jewell she's full of shit too along with all the
> > > other parents who did come forward? Look up "cult" in any Webster's. Get
> > > enlightened.....
> >
> > Well.. her own grandmother said she was full of shit, so I wouldn't hesitate
> > to say the same thing.. and "other parents"? what other parents? names:
> > Look up "proof" in any Webster's... Get enlightened...
> >
> >
Kev
ago on CSPAN. He sat there and stated that there were automatic weapons on
April 19th. And as you said, if they were there at the end, they were there
at the beginning.
And who do you want to produce them to? You want them delivered to your
home? Sorry.
And it's not a matter of being untaxed necessarily. It's the fact that they
seem to have been modified by them. In other words they were manufacturing
automatic weapons illegally. And that is more than $200.
PLMerite <stoc...@smokebomb.hill> wrote in message
news:7rst1i$sd6$1...@winter.news.rcn.net...
Anima
Shouldn't "Family values" be on some science fiction newsgroup??
--Laura
Mark Balcom wrote:
> laura key wrote:
> >
> > I bet you believe in the tooth fairy also!! I believe the government about as
> > far
> > as I can overthrow it!
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------
> >
>
> "Family values" should never post to a thread with the word "reality" in
> its title.
>
> Mark
> > > Mildred Pierce <mildre...@popamericana.com> wrote in message
> > > news:oqGD3.982$cz.3...@news2.mia..
> > > >
> > > > Yankee33 <Yank...@5iron.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:7rmi2f$7g9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com..
> > > > > In article <37DE7F40...@bainbridge.net>,
> > > > > Joe Long <joe...@bainbridge.net> wrote:
> > > > > > If this is how you truely feel... then I hope you and your's are the
> > > > > players in
> > > > > > the next Waco...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm sorry that you don't have the capacity to weigh both sides of a
> > > > > situation without wishing people dead when they don't share your point
> > > > > of view. "Me" and "Mine" won't be starting a child molesting,
> > > > > brainwashing cult anytime soon. I must be doing something right because
> > > > > Zog, The Man and his buddy, The Gubbmint, aren't spying on me. Can you
> > > > > say the same?
> > > >
> > > > But you might forget to pay some taxes.. after all that is what those
> > > > Federal agents were doing there that warm winter day.. Being a "child
> > > > molesting" (thats bullshit, no proof) brainwashing cult (cult? what is
> > > > that?) isn't going to get you in trouble with the Federal Government..
> > > > --
Mark Balcom
>
> He stated it before the hearings in 1995. I saw a replay of them 2 weeks
> ago on CSPAN. He sat there and stated that there were automatic weapons on
> April 19th. And as you said, if they were there at the end, they were there
> at the beginning.
>
> And who do you want to produce them to? You want them delivered to your
> home? Sorry.
>
> And it's not a matter of being untaxed necessarily. It's the fact that they
> seem to have been modified by them. In other words they were manufacturing
> automatic weapons illegally. And that is more than $200.
>
NO.
The same $200.00 transfer tax applies to the parts as to the assembled
unit.
That is all that I would need to pay to convert my M1 carbine back to an
M2, as originally built.
Unless the laws have been changed VERY recently.
Mark
> PLMerite <stoc...@smokebomb.hill> wrote in message
> news:7rst1i$sd6$1...@winter.news.rcn.net..
> >
James Buster
PLMerite <stoc...@smokebomb.hill> wrote:
>Clinton/Reno had two years to set things right by punishing ("taking full
>responsibility") those responsible for planning, authorizing and executing
>this strategy.
Yeah, they punished them by promoting them.
--
Planet Bog -- pools of toxic chemicals bubble under a choking
atomsphere of poisonous gases... but aside from that, it's not
much like Earth.
James Buster
Even if they did, it's not rape as long as their wives consented.
>2. DK was sexually abusing children as young as ten.
They never found any evidence of that.
Rick Davis
wrote:
>I don't see why so many people overlook the obvious possibility: the ATF
>and FBI bungled their raids in ways which were probably criminal, and David
>Koresh was a major loon who didn't have both feet on the ground. Both can
>be true, one doesn't have to conclude that if one side was bad that makes
>the other side good.
But that's not how we play the game. It's not corporate policy and you
are completly out of order for suggesting such a thing.
Rick
Tom A
>
> >>> >Which motives did they supply to McVeigh?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>Then Vern should've let them go.
> >
> >
> >
> >any bonehead move the ATF/FBI made okay?
> >
>
> McVeigh is no better than the guy who went into the jewish community center
Just as an experiment, why don't you try disconnecting from Virtual
Reality for two weeks and banish the Talking Heads from your brain. Take
careful note about how many assholes on shooting sprees you see with
your own eyes. Include incidents seen by people you come into contact
with, or people they come in contact with, if you want. Come back here
in two weeks and tell us what you found. Then, use this information to
evaluate the prevalence and risk of assholes on shooting sprees.
ToM a
Lucifer
that they were manufacturing weapons illegaly.
Mark Balcom wrote in message <37E2C2...@coho.net>...
familyvalues
news:7ru4lq$bhp$1...@ubu.cad.gatech.edu...
> In <ThwE3.18229$x17.3...@news1.rdc1.ab.home.com> "Lucifer"
<for...@pandemonium.hel> writes:
>
>
> #>>> >Which motives did they supply to McVeigh?
> #>>>
> #>>>
> #>>> Unavenged deaths of innocents.
> #>>>
> #>>
> #>
> #>
> #>
> #>It was possible to place the blame on Vern and get away with it so that
> #made
> #>any bonehead move the ATF/FBI made okay?
> #>
> #>I guess McVeigh didn't see it that way...and he had the wherewithall to
do
> #>something about it, even if his target selection was extreme.
>
> #I find it amazing that you say what the feds did is extreme and should
shot
> #for it...and yet go on to say that "he [McVeigh] had the herewithall to
do
> #something about it." Namely killing innocent people. Whos going to avange
> #THOSE deaths?
>
> McVeigh is currently on death row, after having been convicted of multiple
> counts of murder and assorted other crimes in connection with the bombing.
>
> The perceived motivation for McVeigh's actions are that those who
assaulted
> the Mt.Carmel complex and those who pumped it full of lethal doses of tear
> gas have not been prosecuted. Do you recognize the difference?
>
If they were lethal doses of tear gas, why weren't any of the survivors
treated for it? And none of the Davidians died from it. Funny, eh?
familyvalues
makes me suspect. Congrats. You just fit the bill perfectly. Welcome to
idiodome.
Anima <k...@ti.com> wrote in message news:37E2B797...@ti.com...
familyvalues
Anima <k...@ti.com> wrote in message news:37E2B59C...@ti.com...
> > > > Mildred Pierce <mildre...@popamericana.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:oqGD3.982$cz.3...@news2.mia...
> > > > >
> > > > > Yankee33 <Yank...@5iron.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:7rmi2f$7g9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
familyvalues
news:7ruh4c$6m...@fido.engr.sgi.com...
> In article <7rte0i$qoc$1...@nw003t.infi.net>,
> Albert Isham <dog...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >1. Male cult members gave their wives to David Koresh.
>
> Even if they did, it's not rape as long as their wives consented.
>
> >2. DK was sexually abusing children as young as ten.
>
> They never found any evidence of that.
> --
Yes, they did. Keri Jewell.
Lucifer
Tom A wrote in message <37E317...@spam.highsierra.com>...
>Lucifer wrote:
>>
>> >>> >Which motives did they supply to McVeigh?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>Then Vern should've let them go.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >any bonehead move the ATF/FBI made okay?
>> >
do
>>
shot
do
>> McVeigh is no better than the guy who went into the jewish community
center
>> and shot those kids. When does it end? Does a week pass that I dont hear
>> about some asshole with a gun going on a shooting spree?
>
>Just as an experiment, why don't you try disconnecting from Virtual
>Reality for two weeks and banish the Talking Heads from your brain. Take
>careful note about how many assholes on shooting sprees you see with
>your own eyes. Include incidents seen by people you come into contact
>with, or people they come in contact with, if you want. Come back here
>in two weeks and tell us what you found. Then, use this information to
>evaluate the prevalence and risk of assholes on shooting sprees.
>
Well if thats the case, how about you get back to me with how many raids
against religious cults you see with your own eyes, or car bombs at gov.
biuldings with your own eyes.
I guess since I never saw any jews die with my own eyes its ok
>
>ToM a
Joe Long
familyvalues wrote:
> James Buster <bit...@seal.engr.sgi.com> wrote in message
> news:7ruh4c$6m...@fido.engr.sgi.com...
> > In article <7rte0i$qoc$1...@nw003t.infi.net>,
> > Albert Isham <dog...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >1. Male cult members gave their wives to David Koresh.
> >
> > Even if they did, it's not rape as long as their wives consented.
> >
> > >2. DK was sexually abusing children as young as ten.
> >
> > They never found any evidence of that.
> > --
>
> Yes, they did. Keri Jewell.
The problem with miss Jewel in this case is she read a typed out
statement at the beginning of a congressional hearing. There were no
charges pressed against any Davidian regarding child abuse by miss
Jewel. She read a piece of paper, the substance of which was later
called into question. It was a publicity stunt by the BATF that worked
then and obviously is still working today.
--
jgl
they're coming for our guns.
they won't succeed, but they will come.
.
In A Gif:
http://www.bainbridge.net/members/joelong/
Searcher:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/1840/
Joe's World:
http://surf.to/joelong
James F. Mayer
writes:
>>>
>>> Two allegations of child abuse were made, one by a disgruntled
>>> ex-Davidian, and one by an ex-husband trying to get full custody of
>>> his daughter. Both cases were investigated by CPS. No charges were
>>> filed. No children were removed. No arrests were made. The Justice
>>> Department said there was no evidence of child abuse at the
"compound"
>>> during the siege, and not enough evidence to arrest Koresh on such
>>> charges before the raid.
>>>
>>> It's bogus.
>>>
>>
of
>>the US Dept of Treasury, and child abuse/molestation is outside of
their
>>jurisdiction. Even if such accussations were true the ATF does NOT
have
>>jurisdiction to go investigate it.
>>
>>
>>I would also encourage everyone to re-think the FBI's stated reason
for
>>their final raid and explaination of how the plan was suppose to
work.
>>
>>Basically the FBI and Janet Reno said the kids inside Waco were being
>>abused and neglected to the FBI was forced to act in order to stop
the
>>children's sufferring.
>>
>>Their plan to end the children's sufferring was to torture the
children
>>by gasing the buildings for 48 hours in an effort to stimulate the
>>parent's "motherly instincts" to protect their children. The mothers
>>would witness their children being tortured by the effects of the gas
>>and this would cause them to want to surrender and leave the
residence
>>in order to get their babies fresh air...
>
>
>
>2. DK was sexually abusing children as young as ten.
>
Onyy after memories were induced into the children by suggestive
questioning and leading.
>3. DK had denied a state social worker accompanied by a sheriff's
deputy
>permission to enter the compound and interview alleged victims of
sexual abuse.
>
No, he did not.
familyvalues
news:37E38226...@bainbridge.net...
>
>
> familyvalues wrote:
>
> > James Buster <bit...@seal.engr.sgi.com> wrote in message
> > news:7ruh4c$6m...@fido.engr.sgi.com...
> > > In article <7rte0i$qoc$1...@nw003t.infi.net>,
> > > Albert Isham <dog...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> >
> > Yes, they did. Keri Jewell.
>
> The problem with miss Jewel in this case is she read a typed out
> statement at the beginning of a congressional hearing. There were no
> charges pressed against any Davidian regarding child abuse by miss
> Jewel. She read a piece of paper, the substance of which was later
> called into question. It was a publicity stunt by the BATF that worked
> then and obviously is still working today.
>
Sorry, but I don't consider kids being raped a publicity stunt.
BJ
the feds wanted to have "War Games" with live ammunitions.
BJ
Lucifer wrote:
> >>> >Which motives did they supply to McVeigh?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Unavenged deaths of innocents.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Then Vern should've let them go.
> >
> >
> >
> >It was possible to place the blame on Vern and get away with it so that
> made
> >any bonehead move the ATF/FBI made okay?
> >
> >I guess McVeigh didn't see it that way...and he had the wherewithall to do
> >something about it, even if his target selection was extreme.
>
> I find it amazing that you say what the feds did is extreme and should shot
> for it...and yet go on to say that "he [McVeigh] had the herewithall to do
> something about it." Namely killing innocent people. Whos going to avange
> THOSE deaths?
> McVeigh is no better than the guy who went into the jewish community center
> and shot those kids. When does it end? Does a week pass that I dont hear
> about some asshole with a gun going on a shooting spree?
> >
> >
Ok, when does it end, Lucifer?
Attila
familyvalues wrote in message ...
>If they were lethal doses of tear gas, why weren't any of the survivors
>treated for it? And none of the Davidians died from it. Funny, eh?
Please explain away the lethal levels of cyanide present in the corpses.
split_pea_with_bacon
believe are child abusers, and have not just evidence but you said
PROOF they're child abusers, and they've done nothing?
Naaah, I'd rather masturbate. Gets to the point quicker.
"Lucifer" <for...@pandemonium.hel> wrote:
>
> Split Pea with Bacon wrote in message
> <37e19def...@news.mindspring.com>...
> >Silly lying woman, this ---
> >> Not at all...walk down to your local court house and ask if evedence was
> >> ever thrown out...ask if a case was lost because the evedence wasnt
> >> enough..ask if the DA ever wanted to sit longer to make sure that it was
> a
> >> sound case..or a lawyer threaten that the evedence wouldnt hold up.
> >is not what I was disputing. It was this --
> >> The CPS went there three times and found plenty of proof, but wanted to
> >> wait to collect more evidence. The conditions of living there alone were
> >> enough to make a case, but wanted to use the sex abuse to make sure
> >> that he would be put away.
> >That's a lie.
> >
> >By the way, if you don't even have a grasp of the basic proper nouns
> >-- like the name Kiri Jewell -- why should anyone take you for
> >anything but a ninny?
>
>
> Well Sally, prove me wrong. You shoot your mouth off but dont back it up.
> Bottom line is you wont call the Waco CPS services and post what they tell
> you because you know it would make you out to be a lier.
> Dont want to spend the money on long distance....then you phone any local
> cps service and ask them if what I said is true, give the name of who you
> called and I'll call them.
>
> Get back to me when you do
>
>
User Accounts
<family...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Sorry, but I don't consider kids being raped a publicity stunt.
No need to be sorry - it's fairly certain that few among us do
consider kids being raped to be a publicity stunt.
Sending a person apparently considered by her own relatives to be
somewhat, shall we say, truth-challenged to make a public statement to
that effect does, however, present a rather clear image of "publicity
stunt", if not outright propaganda.
Go stand in line for your tattoo, ms values, and enjoy the free
shower.
User Accounts
>
>
>Lucifer wrote:
>
> ...snippp...
>>
>> McVeigh is no better than the guy who went into the jewish community center
>> and shot those kids. When does it end? Does a week pass that I dont hear
>> about some asshole with a gun going on a shooting spree?
>
>Ok, when does it end, Lucifer?
>
As soon as you follow John Prine's advice and
"...blow up your TV, throw away your paper..."
ellis_detripp
> > The problem with miss Jewel in this case is she read a typed out
> > statement at the beginning of a congressional hearing. There were no
> > charges pressed against any Davidian regarding child abuse by miss
> > Jewel. She read a piece of paper, the substance of which was later
> > called into question. It was a publicity stunt by the BATF that worked
> > then and obviously is still working today.
> >
>
> Sorry, but I don't consider kids being raped a publicity stunt.
>
She was raped? You know this, when CPS didn't remove her, no rapist
was prosecuted, no suspect was arrested, no trial was held? No need
for a trial! Kid cries rape, end of story. Um, there's a hell of a lot
more evidence that Catholic priests routinely rape alter boys; shall
we storm Mass on Sunday, guns blazing, and bounce a few grenades off
the pews?
ellis_detripp
> James Buster <bit...@seal.engr.sgi.com> wrote in message
> news:7ruh4c$6m...@fido.engr.sgi.com...
> > In article <7rte0i$qoc$1...@nw003t.infi.net>,
> > Albert Isham <dog...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >1. Male cult members gave their wives to David Koresh.
> >
> > Even if they did, it's not rape as long as their wives consented.
> >
> > >2. DK was sexually abusing children as young as ten.
> >
> > They never found any evidence of that.
> > --
>
> Yes, they did. Keri Jewell.
Testimony is not evidence.
You can't even spell her name right.
Her mother didn't believe her, and of course the fire killed her.
If there was enough evidence to prosecute, why not arrest Koresh?
ellis_detripp
I wonder what kind of suspected criminal WOULD deserve this kind of
stormtrooper approach. Would we want cops to rush a suspected bank
robber's hide-out like this, or a suspected mass murderer's house,
guns blazing, even if the suspect was surrounded by people suspected
of nothing, men women and children all over the place? What kind of
rational, compassionate mind could understand what ATF did in the
beginning and what FBI did to follow up and NOT unequivocably condemn
it?
We the people are not responsible for what a wacko religious loon
does. If you believe in democracy, we're responsible for what our
police agencies do.
"KD" <kev...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Joe Long wrote in message <37E23A1F...@bainbridge.net>...
>
> >All that the Davidians wanted was a simple life, living out God's
> >word and not bothering anyone.
> >I heard the gov't had a file on John Lennon... who knows
ellis_detripp
"familyvalues" <family...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Rick Davis <rda...@airmail.net> wrote in message
> news:11C1D0ADDAEE6CDF.17F48508...@lp.airnews.net...
> > On Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:22:14 GMT, "familyvalues"
> > <family...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > >Interesting.....but read this:
> > >
> > >Early in the presentation,
> >
> > <snip>
> > You really have no shame at all.
> >
> > Our friend "familyvalues" is plagerising the Waco Holocaust Museum
> > who wrote this piece to discredit a movie so they could advance their
> > theory that the Davidians were killed by ZOG.
> >
>
> Uh, Rick? If I was plagarizing, why would I leave in the page numbers of
> the scripts and say "read this" where it specifically talks about the ROE?
> Duhhh........Usually, when someone plagarizes, I would opine they're not
> this sloppy? I never claimed to have written it.
>
> You don't need to discredit a "movie". If anything, it was a work of
> fiction. It wasn't even a documentary, but more like a made-for-tv movie.
> It was trash. You know it, and so do alot of others. But keep covering
> your eyes and ears. Maybe it will go away for you. I doubt it.
>
> >
> > Rick
> >
>
>
ellis_detripp
and statements of this man because he was there.
And we would believe "familyvalues" because... ???
Albert Isham
Albert Isham
carnage.
BJ
Ellis, Detripp wrote:
You have not read many of the postings on this NG, have you?
Seventy-five percent of the posters on this NG would love nothing better than
killing Christian.
James F. Mayer
writes:
James F. Mayer
writes:
>
And believe evry word the say.
A few nuts WITH GUNS cause the
>carnage.
>
A few nuts that want to disarm the general citizenry want more
carnage so that they can dance in the blood of the victims and exploit
the survivors.
familyvalues
> I'm supposed to call my local CPS and ask if there are people they
> believe are child abusers, and have not just evidence but you said
> PROOF they're child abusers, and they've done nothing?
>
> Naaah, I'd rather masturbate. Gets to the point quicker.
>
Uh......that was just waaaaay too much information.
familyvalues
>
> familyvalues wrote in message ...
>
> >If they were lethal doses of tear gas, why weren't any of the survivors
> >treated for it? And none of the Davidians died from it. Funny, eh?
>
>
>
> Please explain away the lethal levels of cyanide present in the
corpses.
>
There weren't. Go read the autopsy reports.
familyvalues
news:7s15cf$f...@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com...
> In <7s0ud9$onr$2...@nw001t.infi.net> dog...@earthlink.net (Albert Isham)
> writes:
> >
> >In article <37e3c67f.0@news>, Attila says...
> >>
> >>
> >>familyvalues wrote in message ...
> >>
> >>>If they were lethal doses of tear gas, why weren't any of the
> survivors
> >>>treated for it? And none of the Davidians died from it. Funny, eh?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Please explain away the lethal levels of cyanide present in the
> corpses.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> And you have indisputable proof of this?
>
familyvalues
news:37e3dd3b...@news.mindspring.com...
> "familyvalues" <family...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> > > The problem with miss Jewel in this case is she read a typed out
> > > statement at the beginning of a congressional hearing. There were no
> > > charges pressed against any Davidian regarding child abuse by miss
> > > Jewel. She read a piece of paper, the substance of which was later
> > > called into question. It was a publicity stunt by the BATF that worked
> > > then and obviously is still working today.
> > >
> >
> > Sorry, but I don't consider kids being raped a publicity stunt.
> >
>
> She was raped? You know this, when CPS didn't remove her, no rapist
> was prosecuted, no suspect was arrested, no trial was held? No need
> for a trial! Kid cries rape, end of story. Um, there's a hell of a lot
> more evidence that Catholic priests routinely rape alter boys; shall
> we storm Mass on Sunday, guns blazing, and bounce a few grenades off
> the pews?
Works for me. The catholic faith is waaaay too overrated for me.
familyvalues
time?)