Re: Ye olde burbs & rural mythology.

[rbowman]

On 10/28/2016 06:28 PM, PaxPerPoten wrote:
> Root food is still available and for all winter..such as wild rutabagga.
> Indians survived on many root foods. There are a couple of good books
> available at the University over in Ames, Iowa. Jule Gibbons(Organic
> gardening) old books also have some good ideas.

Around here the only thing you're going to find in any quantity is
arrowleaf balsamroot.

http://www.fs.fed.us/wildflowers/plant-of-the-week/balsamorhiza_sagittata.shtml

They don't call it balsamroot because it tastes like sweet potatoes. It
won't kill you but I think I'd rather go with the Iroquois hard luck
meal -- deer shit soup.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitterroot

You can eat bitterroot too, but take a guess at how it got its name.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camassia

Now camas is good if you can find it. Of course, it the winter with no
flowers the deathcamas bulbs look very similar. That will fix your problems.

I've said it before but I'm not interested in what is edible in Iowa,
Georgia, or Borneo. That's fine if you live in one of those places. I
don't.

http://sustainableplay.com/euell-gibbons-no-grape-nut-he/

Ever eat a pine tree? Got some choice doug firs too.

[Governor Swill]

Archeologists have estimated the population of the western hemisphere
at around 50M give or take ten or twenty mil. The plains Indians
survived because there were as more bison than people. What are there
now? Fewer than there are annual visitors to Yellowstone, I'll bet.

"An estimated 20 to 30 million bison once dominated the North American
landscape from the Appalachians to the Rockies, from the Gulf Coast to
Alaska. Habitat loss and unregulated shooting reduced the population
to just 1,091 by 1889. Today, approximately 500,000 bison live across
North America."
http://www.defenders.org/bison/basic-facts

"Yellowstone National Park 3,447,729"
https://www.npca.org/articles/202-park-service-releases-most-visited-national-park-data-for-2012

There are well over 330M people in the continental US alone.

That's a LOT of roots, nuts and berries!

Pre columbian (North and Central America):
Population density
http://ruby.fgcu.edu/courses/twimberley/EnviroPhilo/PreColumbianMaps_files/Population_Density.jpg
Primary subsistence resource
http://ruby.fgcu.edu/courses/twimberley/EnviroPhilo/PreColumbianMaps_files/Subsistence_Areas.jpg
Primary species exploited
http://ruby.fgcu.edu/courses/twimberley/EnviroPhilo/PreColumbianMaps_files/Subsistence_1.jpg

http://www.drabruzzi.com/native_american_ecology.htm

Even in pre Columbian times, civil organization was necessary. "No
man is an island."

Swill
--
Make America Nasty Again! #imwithher
"Nasty women are tough. Nasty women are smart.
Nasty women VOTE!" - Elizabeth Warren

Nasty is the new black.

http://tinyurl.com/nastytshirt
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Nasty women get stuff done.

[rbowman]

On 10/29/2016 02:32 PM, Governor Swill wrote:
> Archeologists have estimated the population of the western hemisphere
> at around 50M give or take ten or twenty mil. The plains Indians
> survived because there were as more bison than people. What are there
> now? Fewer than there are annual visitors to Yellowstone, I'll bet.

Not for nothing but as I was driving a few miles to take a walk I saw a
herd of elk in a field. I don't think I'm exaggerating if i say there
were over 100, bulls, cows, and calves. They were about 200 yards from
the road and adjacent to a field with Black Angus cattle grazing. I was
surprised to see them down on the flats so soon. As I was coming back at
dusk they were starting to move off to the southwest. I don't know if
they were planning to swim the river and head up the ridges to the south.

Anyway i took my walk, about two hours, up a ridge where I've seen sheep
before. Some deer sign, no sheep. Then as I was driving back up the
road, there were the bighorns peacefully grazing along the road. I guess
it was wild game day. The deer don't count; they're always underfoot.

Looking at the pre-European cultures around here is interesting, for
example the Nez Perce. Their area of Idaho had an abundant supply of
camas, which was their staple carbohydrate, as well as huckelberries,
service barries, and so forth in season along with fish. However there
were no bison. So every year they'd pack up granny and the kids and head
to eastern Montana for the buffalo hunt, maybe 500 miles one way.

The canyon to the east of town is known as Hellgate. The first French
explorers saw a lot of dead bodies. It was the easiest way to go east
but also a great place for ambushes. Highway robbery wasn't an European
invention. It's a lot easier to let someone else do the work and plunder
them as they try to go home.

The Plains indians had plenty of buffalo but no lodgepole pine for the
poles so they were commuting a few hundred miles in the other direction.
Then there were the areas with obsidian for quality tools, pipestone,
and so forth.

In summary, these people were putting a lot of miles on their mocassins
every year to survive, and had a secure location to stash their larders.
The berries aren't around all year, the salmon run is of short duration,
the buffalo steaks are a long way down the road. Without their
infrastructure and inter-tribal treaties they would not have survived.

[Siri Cruise]

In article <e7l7e7...@mid.individual.net>, rbowman <bow...@montana.com>
wrote:

> On 10/29/2016 02:32 PM, Governor Swill wrote:
> > Archeologists have estimated the population of the western hemisphere
> > at around 50M give or take ten or twenty mil. The plains Indians
> > survived because there were as more bison than people. What are there
> > now? Fewer than there are annual visitors to Yellowstone, I'll bet.

> In summary, these people were putting a lot of miles on their mocassins

What was the population count of Nez Perce?

--
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted.
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'
Free the Amos Yee one.

[rbowman]

On 10/29/2016 10:08 PM, Siri Cruise wrote:
> In article <e7l7e7...@mid.individual.net>, rbowman <bow...@montana.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 10/29/2016 02:32 PM, Governor Swill wrote:
>>> Archeologists have estimated the population of the western hemisphere
>>> at around 50M give or take ten or twenty mil. The plains Indians
>>> survived because there were as more bison than people. What are there
>>> now? Fewer than there are annual visitors to Yellowstone, I'll bet.
>
>> In summary, these people were putting a lot of miles on their mocassins
>
> What was the population count of Nez Perce?

Lewis and Clark weren't counting noses but the estimate is about 12,000
when the whites showed up with their home range being about 25,000
square miles, say around the size of West Virginia. That's not counting
the field trips to neutral territory like the buffalo hunt in eastern
Montana and fishing expeditions to the coast.

I don't know where they pulled the number from but Earth First!
suggested the US would have a carrying capacity of around 10 million for
a pre-industrial society but Earth First! doesn't exactly like people.
The Rockefeller Commission formed by Nixon in 1969 felt 200 million was
a nice round number. More recent models put it at 400 - 600 million with
some degradation in the quality of life.

The Cornucopians assume there will always be some technological miracle
to snatch humanity from disaster.

[Siri Cruise]

In article <e7mt6j...@mid.individual.net>, rbowman <bow...@montana.com>
wrote:

> >> In summary, these people were putting a lot of miles on their mocassins
> >
> > What was the population count of Nez Perce?
>
> Lewis and Clark weren't counting noses but the estimate is about 12,000
> when the whites showed up with their home range being about 25,000
> square miles, say around the size of West Virginia. That's not counting

West Virginia has about 2.000.000 people. Who decides which 1.985.000 have to
die so we can live with a Nez Perce economy?

> I don't know where they pulled the number from but Earth First!
> suggested the US would have a carrying capacity of around 10 million for
> a pre-industrial society but Earth First! doesn't exactly like people.
> The Rockefeller Commission formed by Nixon in 1969 felt 200 million was

With a hunter/gatherrer economy? Uh, no. Pre-industrial agriculture doesn't
support as many as today, but it still supports far more than hunter/gatherrers.
Also some Indians had preindustrial agriculture which supported a higher
population.

[Governor Swill]

On Sat, 29 Oct 2016 21:24:10 -0600, rbowman <bow...@montana.com>
wrote:

And trade goods. Why march to the buffalo hunt if the buffalo hunters
will come to you to trade for dried salmon and lumber.

Swill
--
Trump/Pence 2016
Make sexual assault great again!

#imwithher #strongertogether

Hillary ought to be arrested for assault.
'Cause she kicked Trump's ass tonight.

[Governor Swill]

On Sun, 30 Oct 2016 12:41:42 -0600, rbowman <bow...@montana.com>

wrote:

>On 10/29/2016 10:08 PM, Siri Cruise wrote:
>> In article <e7l7e7...@mid.individual.net>, rbowman <bow...@montana.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/29/2016 02:32 PM, Governor Swill wrote:
>>>> Archeologists have estimated the population of the western hemisphere
>>>> at around 50M give or take ten or twenty mil. The plains Indians
>>>> survived because there were as more bison than people. What are there
>>>> now? Fewer than there are annual visitors to Yellowstone, I'll bet.
>>
>>> In summary, these people were putting a lot of miles on their mocassins
>>
>> What was the population count of Nez Perce?
>
>Lewis and Clark weren't counting noses but the estimate is about 12,000
>when the whites showed up with their home range being about 25,000
>square miles, say around the size of West Virginia. That's not counting
>the field trips to neutral territory like the buffalo hunt in eastern
>Montana and fishing expeditions to the coast.
>
>I don't know where they pulled the number from but Earth First!
>suggested the US would have a carrying capacity of around 10 million for
>a pre-industrial society but Earth First! doesn't exactly like people.
>The Rockefeller Commission formed by Nixon in 1969 felt 200 million was
>a nice round number. More recent models put it at 400 - 600 million with
>some degradation in the quality of life.

I don't believe that for an instant. We have less than 350M now just
in the US and that's with modern technology pushing yields and
irrigation of millions of acres of desert and semi arid land.
Population density was MUCH higher in central America so I rather
doubt the lower 48 had more than 20M in it's heyday. The highest
estimate I've run into researching this was 100M for the whole of the
Americas.

>The Cornucopians assume there will always be some technological miracle
>to snatch humanity from disaster.

And it has. Half a century ago, comparisons of food production to
population growth had world leaders worried about how to feed a planet
that already suffered chronic and repeated famines when, in about
twenty years it would have 4 billion people on it. Today, there are
over 7 billion and famines are less frequent.

[rbowman]

On 10/30/2016 01:57 PM, Siri Cruise wrote:
> West Virginia has about 2.000.000 people. Who decides which 1.985.000 have to
> die so we can live with a Nez Perce economy?

When push comes to shove that will take care of itself. Who decides who
will die when some dysfunctional African state excedes its carrying
capacity.

As Lotte Lenya sang in 'Seeräuber-Jenny',

" Wenn man fragt, wer wohl sterben muss.
Und dann werden Sie mich sagen hören: Alle!"

http://lyricstranslate.com/en/die-seer%C3%A4uber-jenny-pirate-jenny.html

> With a hunter/gatherrer economy? Uh, no. Pre-industrial agriculture doesn't
> support as many as today, but it still supports far more than hunter/gatherrers.
> Also some Indians had preindustrial agriculture which supported a higher
> population.

The Iroquois did fairly well and were mostly sedentary agriculturalists.
They were still around when the Europeans showed up. How about the
earlier Mound Builders? They were also agriculturalists and had the
spare resources to build elaborate mounds. They were long gone by about
1200 CE. What happened to them?

[Governor Swill]

On Sun, 30 Oct Siri Cruise wrote:
>rbowman wrote:
>> >> In summary, these people were putting a lot of miles on their mocassins
>> > What was the population count of Nez Perce?
>> Lewis and Clark weren't counting noses but the estimate is about 12,000
>> when the whites showed up with their home range being about 25,000
>> square miles, say around the size of West Virginia. That's not counting
>West Virginia has about 2.000.000 people. Who decides which 1.985.000 have to
>die so we can live with a Nez Perce economy?
>> I don't know where they pulled the number from but Earth First!
>> suggested the US would have a carrying capacity of around 10 million for
>> a pre-industrial society but Earth First! doesn't exactly like people.
>> The Rockefeller Commission formed by Nixon in 1969 felt 200 million was

>With a hunter/gatherrer economy? Uh, no. Pre-industrial agriculture doesn't
>support as many as today, but it still supports far more than hunter/gatherrers.
>Also some Indians had preindustrial agriculture which supported a higher
>population.

Agriculture was most prominent in central America. By comparison,
north American peoples were technologically inferior, using
agriculture less than the southern peoples.

The highest estimates of pre columbian population run about 100M for
all of the America's with the densest populations being on the west
coast, southern central America and along the Pacific coast of south
America.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas
http://ruby.fgcu.edu/courses/twimberley/EnviroPhilo/PreColumbianMaps_files/Population_Density.jpg

"Scholarly estimates of the pre-Columbian population of Northern
America have differed by millions of individuals: the lowest credible
approximations propose that some 900,000 people lived north of the Rio
Grande in 1492, and the highest posit some 18,000,000. In 1910
anthropologist James Mooney undertook the first thorough investigation
of the problem. He estimated the precontact population density of each
culture area based on historical accounts and carrying capacity, an
estimate of the number of people who could be supported by a given
form of subsistence. Mooney concluded that approximately 1,115,000
individuals lived in Northern America at the time of Columbian
landfall. In 1934 A.L. Kroeber reanalyzed Mooney’s work and estimated
900,000 individuals for the same region and period. In 1966
ethnohistorian Henry Dobyns estimated that there were between
9,800,000 and 12,200,000 people north of the Rio Grande before
contact; in 1983 he revised that number upward to 18,000,000 people."
http://historum.com/american-history/47049-demographics-pre-columbian-cultures.html

The current population of Florida is 19,000,000.

Today, the population of the lower 48 alone is 350,000,000.

[Just Wondering]

On 10/30/2016 1:57 PM, Siri Cruise wrote:

> rbowman wrote:
>
>>>> In summary, these people were putting a lot of miles on their mocassins
>>>
>>> What was the population count of Nez Perce?
>>
>> Lewis and Clark weren't counting noses but the estimate is about 12,000
>> when the whites showed up with their home range being about 25,000
>> square miles, say around the size of West Virginia. That's not counting
>
> West Virginia has about 2.000.000 people. Who decides which
> 1.985.000 have to die so we can live with a Nez Perce economy?
>

Darwin would decide.

[rbowman]

On 10/30/2016 08:26 PM, Governor Swill wrote:
> And trade goods. Why march to the buffalo hunt if the buffalo hunters
> will come to you to trade for dried salmon and lumber.

http://www.wyohistory.org/encyclopedia/trade-among-tribes-commerce-plains-europeans-arrived

There was some trade but the inland northwest never developed trade to
the extent of the southern tribes, the Iroquois confederacy, or the
pacific northwest. Different cultures I guess or maybe transportation
problems. Other than the Missouri and its tributaries, which was
challenging even in the fur trade era, there isn't much in the way of
rivers. Even the Missouri leaves you high and dry in East Jesus MT as
L&C found out.

[Governor Swill]

On Mon, 31 Oct 2016 22:36:47 -0600, rbowman <bow...@montana.com>
wrote:

Read a story about midwestern arrowheads being found in the southwest
but it wasn't certain if that was due to trade or migration. There's
more evidence of trade up and down the eastern seaboard and inland at
least to the Appalachians.