Details of the Fort Hood Shootings by an AMERICAN soldier
Too_Many_Tools
shootings...duck and run like hell.
Makes all those winger comments about how the students should have
done this and that look rather silly.
And of course implementing and enforcing psych testing would have
prevented this bloodshed.
Interesting that an American civilian guns were used in this carnage.
Wanna bet some new gun laws are coming?
TMT
But for heroes, bloodbath could have been worse
By ALLEN G. BREED and JEFF CARLTON, Associated Press Writers Allen G.
Breed And Jeff Carlton, Associated Press Writers
FORT HOOD, Texas – Pfc. Marquest Smith, on his way to Afghanistan in
January, was completing routine paperwork about a bee-sting allergy
when the sounds erupted.
A loud, popping noise. Moans. The sudden, urgent shout of "Gun!"
Smith poked his head over the cubicle's partition and saw an
extraordinary sight: An Army officer with two guns, firing into the
crowded room.
The 21-year-old Fort Worth native quickly grabbed the civilian worker
who'd been helping with his paperwork and forced her under the desk.
He lay low for several minutes, waiting for the shooter to run out of
ammunition and wishing he, too, had a gun.
After the shooter stopped to reload, Smith made a run for it. Pushing
two other soldiers in front of him, he made it out of the Soldier
Readiness Processing center — only to plunge into the building twice
more to help the wounded.
Smith had survived the worst mass shooting on an American military
base, a rampage of more than 100 shots that left 13 dead and 30
wounded, including the alleged shooter, Army psychiatrist Maj. Nidal
Malik Hasan.
It could have been much worse, but for the heroics of Smith and others
— like the 19-year-old private who ignored her own wounds, and the
diminutive civilian police officer whose gunfire helped take down
Hasan.
"Unfortunately over the past eight years, our Army has been no
stranger to tragedy," said a somber Gen. George Casey, Army chief of
staff. "But we are an Army that draws strength from adversity. And
hearing the stories of courage and heroism that I heard today makes me
proud to be the leader of this great Army."
___
Home of the 1st Cavalry and 1st Army Division West, Fort Hood has seen
more than its share of deployments and casualties in the past eight
years.
As a psychiatrist, Hasan, 39, had listened to soldiers' tales of
horror. Now, the American-born Muslim was facing imminent deployment
to Afghanistan. In recent days, Hasan had been saying goodbye to
friends. He had given away many of his possessions, including copies
of the Holy Quran.
At 2:37 a.m. Thursday and again around 5, Hasan called neighbor Willie
Bell. Bell could normally hear Hasan's morning prayers through the
thin apartment walls, but Hasan skipped the ritual Thursday.
Bell didn't pick up either time, but Hasan left a message.
"Nice knowing you, old friend," Hasan said. "I'm going to miss you."
About an hour later, surveillance cameras at a 7-Eleven across from
the base captured images of a smiling Hasan, dressed in a long white
garment and white kufi prayer cap, buying his usual breakfast — coffee
and a hash brown.
At the processing center on the southern edge of the 100,000-acre
base, soldiers returning from overseas mingled with colleagues filling
out forms and undergoing medical tests in preparation for deployment.
Around 1:30 p.m., witnesses say a man later identified as Hasan jumped
up on a desk and shouted the words "Allahu Akbar!" — Arabic for "God
is great!" He was armed with two pistols, one a semiautomatic capable
of firing up to 20 rounds without reloading.
Packed into cubicles with 5-foot-high dividers, the 300 unarmed
soldiers were sitting ducks. Those who weren't hit by direct fire were
struck by rounds ricocheting off the desks and tile floor.
When he decided that Hasan wasn't close to being out of ammo, Smith
made a dash for the door. He'd made it outside when he heard cries
from within.
"I don't want to die."
"This really hurts."
"Help me get out of here."
Smith rushed back inside and found two wounded. He grabbed them by
their collars and dragged them outside.
His second time through the door, he ran into the shooter, whose back
was to him. Smith turned and fled, bullets whizzing by his head and
hitting the walls as he rushed outside.
Around this time, Fort Hood Police Sgt. Kimberly Munley got the call
of "shots fired." The SRP isn't on Munley's beat; she was in the area
because her vehicle was in the shop.
Munley, 34, was on the scene within three minutes.
Just over 5 feet tall, Munley is an advanced firearms instructor and
civilian member of Fort Hood's special reaction team. She had trained
on "active shooter" scenarios after the April 2007 mass shooting at
Virginia Tech University. She didn't wait for backup.
As Munley approached the squat, rectangular building, a soldier
emerged from a door with a gunman in pursuit. The officer fired, and
the uniformed shooter wheeled and charged.
Another officer, Senior Sgt. Mark Todd, also responded to the sound of
gunfire. He arrived to find Hasan "just standing there, hiding behind
a telephone pole."
"He just looked like he was calm and he was just pointing, it was
almost like he was pointing his finger at me," Todd told CNN in an
interview late Friday. "But then I seen the weapon. ... I just know I
seen the weapon and muzzle flashes and then that's when we returned
the fire."
Munley was hit at least three times in the exchange — twice through
the left leg and once in her right wrist. Hasan was hit four times.
It's not clear whose bullets hit the suspect, but from the first shots
to the last, authorities say the whole incident lasted less than 10
minutes.
___
Pfc. Jeffrey Pearsall, 21, from Houston, was waiting outside in the
parking lot for Smith. He was talking to his brother on a cell phone
when a group of soldiers ran out the door and a window shattered.
It was only then that he heard the gunshots.
He pulled his pickup truck forward, then hopped out and helped the
wounded into the bed. He loaded as many as he could and sped off to
the base hospital.
Next door, at the Howze Theater, Spc. Elliot Valdez was filming a
graduation ceremony for soldiers who'd completed correspondence
courses. Several proud scholars were posing for a group shot when
Valdez heard a pounding at the side door.
The door burst open and the theater filled with shouts of "Medic!" and
"Stay in the building!" A combat videographer who returned from a 15-
month Iraq tour in January, some of it in the notorious Sadr City
slums, Valdez ran out into the sunlight.
Crouching as he continued to roll tape, Valdez could see windows
broken by fleeing victims. He saw a soldier in his Class A dress
uniform with a gunshot in his back. Soldiers in flowing black
graduation robes and purple sashes rushed to help.
Pfc. Amber Bahr, 19, of Random Lake, Wis., tore up her blouse and used
it as a tourniquet on a wounded comrade. It was only later that she
realized she'd been shot in the back, the bullet exiting her abdomen.
Sgt. Andrew Hagerman, a military police officer, was patrolling a
housing area when word of shootings crackled over his radio.
As he arrived at the processing center, bloodied soldiers, some
shirtless, were already treating each other on the grass outside,
ripping pant legs off and tying off wounds. Munley — with whom
Hagerman had exchanged small talk on patrols — was being loaded into
an ambulance.
Hasan lay on the ground, his two handguns beside him, as medical
personnel struggled to remove his handcuffs to treat his wounds.
Hagerman entered the building, took a deep breath and asked himself:
"What do I need to do?"
He picked his way around the room's edges, careful not to step in
pools of blood or to kick any spent shell casings. He had seen death
during his two tours in Iraq, but nothing that compared with this.
In the confusion, Army Reserve Spc. Grant Moxon, 23, lost his cell
phone. He borrowed a comrade's phone to send a text to his family in
Lodi, Wis.
The message stated simply: "Grant. I was shot in the leg. I'll be
OK."
Sgt. Howard Appleby, 31, was at the hospital for his regular meeting
with a psychiatrist. Appleby, who was born in Jamaica and grew up in
New York City, sustained a traumatic brain injury and has post-
traumatic stress disorder from a roadside bomb blast during a tour in
Iraq.
His appointment canceled, Appleby found himself pulling the dead and
wounded from ambulances. In combat, he was used to one or two
casualties a day. "This," he thought, "is crazy."
Lt. Col. Larry Masullo, an emergency room physician from Farmingdale,
N.Y., was heading into a monthly meeting to review new doctors'
credentials when he heard of the shootings.
"Yeah, OK," he said. "Multiple gunshot wounds. Is this a drill?"
In the next hour and a half, he would treat nearly two dozen
soldiers.
For several hours, authorities feared there were several gunmen. By
the end of the day, it was clear Hasan had acted alone, they said.
___
Hasan, hooked up to a ventilator, was moved Friday to a military
hospital in San Antonio. The woman who stopped him, Munley, awaited
surgery Friday to remove the bullets from her leg. Her husband was
flying in from Fort Bragg, N.C.
Her boss, Chuck Medley, was thankful. "If an officer had to be close
by to respond," he said, "Kim Munley is someone we'd want to be
there."
Marquest Smith says some of the people he helped made it. But he knows
others did not.
Afterward, Smith noticed a hole in heel of his right combat boot. A
bullet had entered the boot, but he had somehow escaped injury — at
least the physical kind.
After the adrenaline wore off, Smith was overwhelmed by a sense of
betrayal, because this assailant who spilled so much blood was a
soldier.
"We're supposed to be a family," he said.
___
EDITOR'S NOTE: AP Writers Mike Baker and Paul J. Weber also
contributed to this report.
1-20-2013
> Hmmm...looks like these soldiers were in the situation as the student
> shootings...duck and run like hell.
Seems logical. When a muslim terrorist is shooting at anything that
moves....duck and run like hell.
>
> Makes all those winger comments about how the students should have
> done this and that look rather silly.
Which "winger comments" are those?
When a muslim terrorist wants to meet "allah" and get his 72 virgins,
not much to do except duck, run, and pray.
Many HUGE kudos to the female police officer that dropped the muslim
terrorist pig. I hope she recovers from her injuries and can convince a
jury that the muslim maggot deserves the death penalty!!!! How effing
awesome is it that this slimebag was stopped by a woman?!!!?!!!???
>
> And of course implementing and enforcing psych testing would have
> prevented this bloodshed.
Perhaps. One wonders if psych testing would have prevented muslim
terrorists from committing the atrocities of 9/11? Doubtful.
>
> Interesting that an American civilian guns were used in this carnage.
>
> Wanna bet some new gun laws are coming?
Imagine liberals trying to tell the US military that they can't carry
weapons! :^\ Instead the liberals will require US soldiers to carry
ipods that have nothing but John Lennon tunes on them and carry a purse
to hit any potential enemies with.
Sounds like a liberal wet dream.
>
> TMT
>
> But for heroes, bloodbath could have been worse
> By ALLEN G. BREED and JEFF CARLTON, Associated Press Writers Allen G.
> Breed And Jeff Carlton, Associated Press Writers
>
>
> FORT HOOD, Texas � Pfc. Marquest Smith, on his way to Afghanistan in
> January, was completing routine paperwork about a bee-sting allergy
> when the sounds erupted.
>
> A loud, popping noise. Moans. The sudden, urgent shout of "Gun!"
>
> Smith poked his head over the cubicle's partition and saw an
> extraordinary sight: An Army officer with two guns, firing into the
> crowded room.
>
> The 21-year-old Fort Worth native quickly grabbed the civilian worker
> who'd been helping with his paperwork and forced her under the desk.
> He lay low for several minutes, waiting for the shooter to run out of
> ammunition and wishing he, too, had a gun.
>
> After the shooter stopped to reload, Smith made a run for it. Pushing
> two other soldiers in front of him, he made it out of the Soldier
> Readiness Processing center � only to plunge into the building twice
> more to help the wounded.
>
> Smith had survived the worst mass shooting on an American military
> base, a rampage of more than 100 shots that left 13 dead and 30
> wounded, including the alleged shooter, Army psychiatrist Maj. Nidal
> Malik Hasan.
>
> It could have been much worse, but for the heroics of Smith and others
> � like the 19-year-old private who ignored her own wounds, and the
> diminutive civilian police officer whose gunfire helped take down
> Hasan.
>
> "Unfortunately over the past eight years, our Army has been no
> stranger to tragedy," said a somber Gen. George Casey, Army chief of
> staff. "But we are an Army that draws strength from adversity. And
> hearing the stories of courage and heroism that I heard today makes me
> proud to be the leader of this great Army."
>
> ___
>
> Home of the 1st Cavalry and 1st Army Division West, Fort Hood has seen
> more than its share of deployments and casualties in the past eight
> years.
>
> As a psychiatrist, Hasan, 39, had listened to soldiers' tales of
> horror. Now, the American-born Muslim was facing imminent deployment
> to Afghanistan. In recent days, Hasan had been saying goodbye to
> friends. He had given away many of his possessions, including copies
> of the Holy Quran.
>
> At 2:37 a.m. Thursday and again around 5, Hasan called neighbor Willie
> Bell. Bell could normally hear Hasan's morning prayers through the
> thin apartment walls, but Hasan skipped the ritual Thursday.
>
> Bell didn't pick up either time, but Hasan left a message.
>
> "Nice knowing you, old friend," Hasan said. "I'm going to miss you."
>
> About an hour later, surveillance cameras at a 7-Eleven across from
> the base captured images of a smiling Hasan, dressed in a long white
> garment and white kufi prayer cap, buying his usual breakfast � coffee
> and a hash brown.
>
> At the processing center on the southern edge of the 100,000-acre
> base, soldiers returning from overseas mingled with colleagues filling
> out forms and undergoing medical tests in preparation for deployment.
>
> Around 1:30 p.m., witnesses say a man later identified as Hasan jumped
> up on a desk and shouted the words "Allahu Akbar!" � Arabic for "God
> Munley was hit at least three times in the exchange � twice through
> ripping pant legs off and tying off wounds. Munley � with whom
> Hagerman had exchanged small talk on patrols � was being loaded into
> bullet had entered the boot, but he had somehow escaped injury � at
Escape_the_Cult_Now
"Winston_Smith" <not_...@bogus.net> wrote in message
news:bft9f5ho8srcabpso...@4ax.com...
> Too_Many_Tools <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>And of course implementing and enforcing psych testing would have
>>prevented this bloodshed.
>
> left winger. He tested himself and found out he was just fine.
He's a life-long Muslim and that has more to do with it.
>
>>Wanna bet some new gun laws are coming?
>
> I'm quite sure the left wingers will try that. I've been expecting it
> and predicting it for years. I'm not alone. Gun and ammo sales
> skyrocketed as soon as it became clear we were going to get stuck with
> that little old, left winger, gun grabber, Barry Hussein.
Rastus
b837-55a...@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com:
> Hmmm...looks like these soldiers were in the situation as the student
> shootings...duck and run like hell.
>
> Makes all those winger comments about how the students should have
> done this and that look rather silly.
>
Brainwashed sand niggers who walk around in white dresses spouting versus
from the Quaran are NOT and NEVER WILL BE Americans.
Too_Many_Tools
> Too_Many_Tools <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in news:f468b350-f24b-4740-
> b837-55ae4be69...@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Hmmm...looks like these soldiers were in the situation as the student
> > shootings...duck and run like hell.
>
> > Makes all those winger comments about how the students should have
> > done this and that look rather silly.
>
> Brainwashed sand niggers who walk around in white dresses spouting versus
> from the Quaran are NOT and NEVER WILL BE Americans.
You mean like the brainwashed rednecks who walk around in white sheets
spouting verses from the Bible that are NOT and NEVE WILL BE
Americans?
Sorry stupid winger but the shooter WAS AN AMERICAN.
TMT
Sid9
"Winston_Smith" <not_...@bogus.net> wrote in message
news:bft9f5ho8srcabpso...@4ax.com...
> Too_Many_Tools <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>prevented this bloodshed.
>
> left winger. He tested himself and found out he was just fine.
>
>
> it
> and predicting it for years. I'm not alone. Gun and ammo sales
> skyrocketed as soon as it became clear we were going to get stuck
> with
> that little old, left winger, gun grabber, Barry Hussein.
.
New gun laws?
Not a chance.
Not enough Americans are dead yet for new laws.
tankfixer
@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com>, too_man...@yahoo.com says...
> Wanna bet some new gun laws are coming?
>
What is sad is whore like you dancing about in glee that people got
killed..
Strabo
> Too_Many_Tools <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> And of course implementing and enforcing psych testing would have
>> prevented this bloodshed.
>
> left winger. He tested himself and found out he was just fine.
>
Zoloft will do that!
>
>> Wanna bet some new gun laws are coming?
>
> I'm quite sure the left wingers will try that. I've been expecting it
> and predicting it for years. I'm not alone. Gun and ammo sales
> skyrocketed as soon as it became clear we were going to get stuck with
> that little old, left winger, gun grabber, Barry Hussein.
>
The tide has turned. Even Canada is considering gun control reversal.
Wear your weapons with pride.
Remember, an armed society is a very polite society.
Also remember that if a jury finds you guilty of misuse you'll
likely hang.
Rights - Responsibility and Accountability
Escape_the_Cult_Now
"Too_Many_Tools" <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:309674cb-98e7-4096...@m25g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 6, 10:45 pm, Rastus <n...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> Too_Many_Tools <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:f468b350-f24b-4740-
> b837-55ae4be69...@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Hmmm...looks like these soldiers were in the situation as the student
> > shootings...duck and run like hell.
>
> > Makes all those winger comments about how the students should have
> > done this and that look rather silly.
>
> Brainwashed sand niggers who walk around in white dresses spouting versus
> from the Quaran are NOT and NEVER WILL BE Americans.
Sorry stupid winger but the shooter WAS AN AMERICAN.
TMT
Sorry stupid TMT, the shooter was a life-long Muslim who hated America, used
America, killed, Americans. He may have been born here but he was a Born
Killer.
Escape_the_Cult_Now
"tankfixer" <paul.c...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.255ea2f...@news.bytemine.net...
and released your enemies list.
tankfixer
kill...@invalid.invalid says...
You obviously have me confused with someone else.
Put down the bong and clean your head some, that pot is shriviling your
brain..
Lookout
wrote:
If you cleaned more bongs and less guns you might make some sense.
tankfixer
Sid9
.
Guns are for what?
Curly Surmudgeon
wrote:
> In article <vqibf5hvr4kd8hnak...@4ax.com>,
> mrLo...@yahoo.com says...
>>
>> On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 09:20:17 -0800, tankfixer <paul.c...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <hd3b2e$8uu$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>> >kill...@invalid.invalid says...
>> >>
>> >> "tankfixer" <paul.c...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:MPG.255ea2f...@news.bytemine.net...
>> >> > In article <f468b350-f24b-4740-b837-55ae4be69c76
>> >> > @s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com>, too_man...@yahoo.com says...
>> >> >> Wanna bet some new gun laws are coming?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> > What is sad is whore like you dancing about in glee that people
>> >> > got killed..
>> >> >
>> >> We've heard enough of your kind, Grayson. Your the one that
>> >> declared WAR and released your enemies list.
>> >
>> >You obviously have me confused with someone else. Put down the bong
>> >and clean your head some, that pot is shriviling your brain..
>>
>> If you cleaned more bongs and less guns you might make some sense.
>
> pot is for dopes
Tell me that when you have chemotherapy, arthritis or glaucoma...
--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Bible: Slavery Good, Gays Bad, Snakes Talk
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Beam Me Up Scotty
> On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 14:28:22 -0800, tankfixer <paul.c...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> In article <vqibf5hvr4kd8hnak...@4ax.com>,
>> mrLo...@yahoo.com says...
>>> On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 09:20:17 -0800, tankfixer <paul.c...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <hd3b2e$8uu$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>>> kill...@invalid.invalid says...
>>>>> "tankfixer" <paul.c...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:MPG.255ea2f...@news.bytemine.net...
>>>>>> In article <f468b350-f24b-4740-b837-55ae4be69c76
>>>>>> @s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com>, too_man...@yahoo.com says...
>>>>>>> Wanna bet some new gun laws are coming?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> What is sad is whore like you dancing about in glee that people
>>>>>> got killed..
>>>>>>
>>>>> We've heard enough of your kind, Grayson. Your the one that
>>>>> declared WAR and released your enemies list.
>>>> You obviously have me confused with someone else. Put down the bong
>>>> and clean your head some, that pot is shriviling your brain..
>>> If you cleaned more bongs and less guns you might make some sense.
>> pot is for dopes
>
> Tell me that when you have chemotherapy, arthritis or glaucoma...
I thought POT was for people that had liver and or Kidney failure and
impairment. Alcohol would kill them.
tankfixer
tankfixer
CurlySu...@live.com says...
>
> On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 14:28:22 -0800, tankfixer <paul.c...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > In article <vqibf5hvr4kd8hnak...@4ax.com>,
> > mrLo...@yahoo.com says...
> >>
> >> On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 09:20:17 -0800, tankfixer <paul.c...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article <hd3b2e$8uu$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> >> >kill...@invalid.invalid says...
> >> >>
> >> >> "tankfixer" <paul.c...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> >> news:MPG.255ea2f...@news.bytemine.net...
> >> >> > In article <f468b350-f24b-4740-b837-55ae4be69c76
> >> >> > @s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com>, too_man...@yahoo.com says...
> >> >> >> Wanna bet some new gun laws are coming?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> > What is sad is whore like you dancing about in glee that people
> >> >> > got killed..
> >> >> >
> >> >> We've heard enough of your kind, Grayson. Your the one that
> >> >> declared WAR and released your enemies list.
> >> >
> >> >You obviously have me confused with someone else. Put down the bong
> >> >and clean your head some, that pot is shriviling your brain..
> >>
> >> If you cleaned more bongs and less guns you might make some sense.
> >
> > pot is for dopes
>
> Tell me that when you have chemotherapy, arthritis or glaucoma...
YOu another of those "medicinal" growers ?
Like the ones caught in southern oregon with a couple hundred pounds ?
Sid9
.
Nope.
Guns are for men with small dicks who have doubts about their manhood.
Otherwise, they are fine for hunting and target shooting.
Real Americans are free without guns.
Real Americans are free because of our democratically elected
government.
Real Americans are free because of our system of laws.
tankfixer
Fortunately you don't get to decide what a real american is..
r wiley
"tankfixer" <paul.c...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:MPG.255fdb0...@news.bytemine.net...
Marijuana, like most controlled substances, is a lot less hazardous than
Richard Nixon's "War on Drugs"
Although Nixon created the "War on Drugs", every president since has kept
the statutes in place and prosecuted them vigorously. Bill Clinton finally
acknowledged that marijuana should be decriminalized in December 2000,
when he had one month left in office and would never have to face the
electorate again.
http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=4235
rw
nraclaptrap
news:bft9f5ho8srcabpso...@4ax.com:
> Too_Many_Tools <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>And of course implementing and enforcing psych testing would have
>>prevented this bloodshed.
>
> The trouble is the shooter IS a psychiatrist. And he is nutty as a
> left winger. He tested himself and found out he was just fine.
>
>>Wanna bet some new gun laws are coming?
>
> I'm quite sure the left wingers will try that. I've been expecting it
> and predicting it for years. I'm not alone. Gun and ammo sales
> skyrocketed as soon as it became clear we were going to get stuck with
> that little old, left winger, gun grabber, Barry Hussein.
If you're talking about Texas gun laws, the legislature would probably
deregulate CCW even more, except that we want to lure world-class
researchers to Texas, create some research and tech jobs, we just passed
a constitutional amendment about that, but it means we have to forget
about guns on campus and other nonsensical gun permissions.
--
NRACLAPTRAP
r wiley
"nraclaptrap" <nracl...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:Xns9CBD8D3EF7D3p...@216.196.97.131...
Since the evidence is in that homicide and violent crime rates are directly
proportional to infringements on the right of the people to keep and bear
arms, logical people would seek empoyment where those infrimgements
are least oppressive.
Researchers go where the jobs are. If they were looking for a safe
environment they would move to someplace with low violent crime rates
like North Dakota, where gun ownership rates are high, and infringements
are low.
rw
Sid9
"r wiley" <raw...@southslope.net> wrote in message
news:hd6v6u$rjv$1...@news.netins.net...
.
Americans are over 30 times more likely to die of a gunshot wound than
a Brit.
That's protection!
nraclaptrap
september.org:
>>>>>And of course implementing and enforcing psych testing would have
>>>>>prevented this bloodshed.
>>>>
>>>> The trouble is the shooter IS a psychiatrist. And he is nutty as
>>>> a
>>>> left winger. He tested himself and found out he was just fine.
>>>>
>>>>>Wanna bet some new gun laws are coming?
>>>>
>>>> I'm quite sure the left wingers will try that. I've been expecting
>>>> it and predicting it for years. I'm not alone. Gun and ammo sales
>>>> skyrocketed as soon as it became clear we were going to get stuck
>>>> with that little old, left winger, gun grabber, Barry Hussein.
>>>
>>> If you're talking about Texas gun laws, the legislature would
>>> probably deregulate CCW even more, except that we want to lure
>>> world-class researchers to Texas, create some research and tech
>>> jobs, we just passed a constitutional amendment about that, but it
>>> means we have to forget about guns on campus and other nonsensical
>>> gun permissions.
>>
>> Since the evidence is in that homicide and violent crime rates are
>> directly proportional to infringements on the right of the people to
>> keep and bear arms, logical people would seek empoyment where those
>> infrimgements are least oppressive.
Says who? I never heard or read anything remotely like that except when
NRA-induced gunloons robotically repeat lies the NRA's trial lawyers
insert in you feeble mind.
Cite that evidence, Sidney.
>> Researchers go where the jobs are.
They're talented people with a bright future making good money. Why
would they buy a home in an armed camp when they could live in a nice
neighborhood someplace with reasonable gun control laws?
Right now Texas isn't the kind of place they'd be looking for. But we
can change that.
>> If they were looking for a safe
>> environment they would move to someplace with low violent crime rates
>> like North Dakota, where gun ownership rates are high, and
>> infringements are low.
But all these researchers are liberals, you know, the ones who assert a
right not to live in a combat zone run by the gunlobby.
> Americans are over 30 times more likely to die of a gunshot wound than
> a Brit.
>
> That's protection!
Universal background checks on all gun transactions as well as licensing
and registration of all guns would put an end to that. It would make the
criminals much easier to catch.
Which is exactly why the NRA vehemently opposes such common sense
measures.
--
NRACLAPTRAP
Gunner Asch
wrote:
And fortunately..the stupid wank wasnt a black man in the 1920-60s
South.
Laws are great..but unless you can back them up with force....shrug
Gunner
"IMHO, some people here give Jeff far more attention than he deserves,
but obviously craves. The most appropriate response, and perhaps the
cruelest, IMO, is to simply killfile and ignore him. An alternative, if
you must, would be to post the same standard reply to his every post,
listing the manifold reasons why he ought to be ignored. Just my $0.02
worth."
Berry Oakley
Cite yours, lardnugget.
> They're talented people with a bright future making good money. Why
> would they buy a home in an armed camp when they could live in a nice
> neighborhood someplace with reasonable gun control laws?
They BUY homes in Fort Hood?
>
> Right now Texas isn't the kind of place they'd be looking for. But we
> can change that.
Who is this "We" that you speak of?
You and the 26 ton turd that's half out your ass, that is still trying
to find freedom into the sewer system?
tankfixer
says...
Tell us how ingesting hot gasses into your lungs is harmless
Sid9
"Berry Oakley" <AllmanB...@bass.gov> wrote in message
news:4af719d1$0$22524$607e...@cv.net...
.
What you are responding to?
My words seem to have vanished
I posted this:
"Americans are over 30 times more likely to die of a gunshot wound
than a Brit.
That's protection!"
My words are true....I posted the research, the sources, and the
website before.
Find it your self.
Sid9
"Gunner Asch" <gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote in message
news:qv5ef55t7ej7p92f5...@4ax.com...
That's what police and independent judiciaries are for.
Don't you have a clue as to how our democratically elected government
works?
Laws in the South were unconstitutional.
Demon Buddha
>
> Guns are for men with small dicks who have doubts about their manhood.
>
> Otherwise, they are fine for hunting and target shooting.
>
> Real Americans are free without guns.
>
> Real Americans are free because of our democratically elected
> government.
>
> Real Americans are free because of our system of laws.
I see someone has been in the LSD again.
God damn it, I told you guys to take it away from him. You know how he
gets when he is stoned.
Sheesh.
Demon Buddha
> Laws in the South were unconstitutional.
That didn't stop a whole bunch of black boys from getting their poor
selves lynched by mobs of good old boys looking for something to do on a
Saturday night or with an ax to grind... and getting away with it scott
free in virtually every case. I'd say a pistol would at least let some
of those boys take a few of the others straight to hell with them.
Now lay off the LSD. You are clearly out of your mind.
Sid9
"Demon Buddha" <Nob...@no.where> wrote in message
news:bp6dnUg5lZXoB2rX...@giganews.com...
Really!
I'll bet that you advocate allowing weapons in bars!
That would make a lot of fun.....and a decrease in the redneck
population in the United States.
....and now for other news:
November 8, 2009
Police: 3 Women Gunned Down While in Car With Kids
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 8:57 p.m. ET
EAST ST. LOUIS, Ill. (AP) -- Investigators on Sunday captured a man
they believe opened fire on a car parked at a gas station, killing
three women, including an acquaintance of the suspect, state
investigators said. Children inside the bullet-riddled vehicle escaped
harm.
All the wounded in Saturday night's shooting outside the Crown Food
Mart in East St. Louis were shot several times, mostly in the torso,
and died later at a hospital, Illinois State Police Lt. James Morrisey
said. At least one victim knew the gunman, Morrisey said, though the
precise relationship was not clear.
Police in neighboring St. Louis arrested the suspect Sunday night at
an apartment after an intensive search for the white, four-door 1993
Mercury Grand Marquis he supposedly drove to and from the shooting,
Morrisey said.
The suspect's name was not released because charges had not been
filed......
r wiley
"Sid9" <si...@belsouth.net> wrote in message news:hd70hu$333$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> .
> .
> Americans are over 30 times more likely to die of a gunshot wound than a Brit.
>
An American is about 3 times as likely to be a homicide victim as a Brit.
200 years ago, long before England got into the gun prohibition business,
the homicide rate in New York was 5 times that of London. The male
homicide rate in Scotland is twice that of England although both have
the same restrictions on gun possession.
rw
Curly Surmudgeon
wrote:
There are a number of ways to view those statistics besides the one you
wish. A few alternatives are:
- The statistics are bogus.
- America has more liberty.
- You need to kill more Brits.
Gunner Asch
wrote:
>
Not..entirely true....
http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/guns/britishcrimerates.htm
>
By Sean O'Neill
London Telegraph
PEOPLE living in England and Wales are at greater risk of falling victim
to crime than citizens of most other industrialised nations, according
to a study published yesterday.
The International Crime Victims Survey, based on 34,000 telephone
interviews across 17 countries, found that 26 per cent of people - more
than one in four - in England and Wales had been victims of crime in
1999. The figure for Scotland was 23 per cent and in Northern Ireland 15
per cent.
Jack Straw, the Home Secretary, said the research confirmed previous
evidence "that levels of victimisation are higher than in most
comparable countries for most categories of crime". Mr Straw said that
although the police and other agencies were working hard to reduce
crime, "no one should be under any illusions about the challenges
ahead".
England and Wales were second only to Australia in the examination of
"victimisation rates", details of which appeared in the Economist. There
was a downward trend in crime levels from previous surveys in 1991 and
1999. People in England and Wales were at greater risk than anywhere
else of having their cars stolen: 2.6 per cent fell victim to vehicle
theft.
The average rate was 1.2 per cent and the Japanese were least likely to
have their cars stolen with a victim rate of just 0.1 per cent. Theft
from cars was highest in Poland, where nine per cent of people had items
stolen from their vehicles. In England and Wales the level was eight per
cent.
The percentage of the population which suffered "contact crime" in
England and Wales was 3.6 per cent, compared with 1.9 per cent in the
United States and 0.4 per cent in Japan. Burglary rates in England and
Wales were also among the highest recorded. Australia (3.9 per cent) and
Denmark (3.1 per cent) had higher rates of burglary with entry than
England and Wales (2.8 per cent).
The risk of robbery was comparatively low in all the countries surveyed.
Highest rates were in Poland, where 1.8 per cent of the population said
they had been robbed in 1999, followed by Australia and England and
Wales (both 1.2 per cent). By far the lowest robbery risks were in Japan
and Northern Ireland (both 0.1 per cent)
After Australia and England and Wales, the highest prevalence of crime
was in Holland (25 per cent), Sweden (25 per cent) and Canada (24 per
cent). The United States, despite its high murder rate, was among the
middle ranking countries with a 21 per cent victimisation rate.
Portugal, Japan and Northern Ireland, each with 15 per cent, recorded
the lowest overall victimisation rates in the survey which was conducted
by Leiden University in Holland and published by the Dutch justice
ministry.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/british-crime-levels-now-worse-than-us-1177553.html
British crime levels 'now worse than US'
MARIE WOOLF Political Correspondent
BRITISH PEOPLE are more at risk of being robbed and mugged than those in
the United States, according to a report now being studied by the Home
Secretary.
The study, by a Cambridge University criminologist, found that while
crime levels have fallen in the US since 1981, they have soared in
Britain.
Robbery is now 1.4 times more common in the UK than on the other side of
the Atlantic, while assaults are 2.3 times more likely.
The report shows that rates for burglary, assault and robbery have risen
dramatically in the UK but dropped in the US. The findings are said to
have shocked Jack Straw, the Home Secretary, who is analysing them.
The 100-page report challenges the traditional view that Britain is a
safe place to live. It was compiled from surveys of thousands of victims
and information from police, the prison services and courts on both
sides of the Atlantic.
The research shows that the British burglary rate is now nearly double
that of the US and theft of motor vehicles in the UK has risen by 100
per cent since 1981.
But America, the gun capital of the world, is still more dangerous than
Britain in terms of rapes and murders, although the gap is narrowing. In
1981, the chance of being murdered in the US was nearly nine times
higher than in Britain. By 1995, the latest year for which figures were
available, the US rate was less than six times greater. The chances of
being raped have risen continuously in Britain while in the US they have
lessened.
The report, by criminologist Professor David Farrington of Cambridge
University and Patrick Langan, a senior statistician at the US
Department of Justice, blames the leniency of police towards suspects
and the reluctance of the legal system to convict criminals and jail
them, for the rise in crime.
It says a major factor in the rising crime rate has been the policy of
Home Office personnel who have been "primarily concerned with reducing
the prison population".
A spokesman for Mr Straw blamed the rising crime rate, detailed in the
report, on Conservative policies on law and order. He said the report's
findings over the 15 years from 1981 to 1995 coincided with Tory rule.
"The report is a graphic illustration of the failures of Tory law and
order policy. In 18 years of their government you had a doubling of
crime while convictions dropped by one third. There was a hugely
widening gap," said an aide to the Home Secretary. "The risks of being
caught have been declining. It goes to show why it is so important to
reform the justice system."
Police figures out this week will show alarming increases in violent and
sexual crimes in Britain during the last year.
The murder rate has risen by 26 per cent in London and 85 per cent in
Northumbria.
City Journal Spring 2009.
Claire Berlinski
The Dark Figure of British Crime
Despite government reassurances, Britons feel under siege�with good
reason.
Rising youth crime, which official statistics haven't even measured, has
contributed to public fear.
Simon Wheatley/Magnum Photos
Rising youth crime, which official statistics haven�t even measured, has
contributed to public fear.
Just before midnight on January 12, 2006, Tom ap Rhys Pryce, a
31-year-old lawyer, left a London party and telephoned his fianc�e to
say that he was on his way home. He emerged from the tube station at
Kensal Green about 20 minutes later and began walking toward their
apartment. That was when two teenage gang members attacked him. Donnel
Carty kicked Pryce in the back, sending him flying to the ground, and
Delano Brown kicked him in the face. When Pryce tried to defend himself,
the attackers stabbed him in the legs, hands, face, and heart. Then they
took his cell phone and public-transportation pass, the only valuables
in his possession, and ran off, leaving him dying on the ground. The
paramedics who strove unsuccessfully to revive him found his wedding
vows strewn on the pavement.
The British press, particularly the tabloid press, carries stories like
this nearly every day�lurid accounts of drunken vandals, teenage
murderers, child abuse, knifings, and gang violence. �After bingeing on
lager, vodka and cocaine, twisted Jobson launched a frenzied attack,
stabbing Samantha TEN times with an eight-inch blade,� the Sun reported
this past November 26. drunken yob who left teenager with part of his
skull missing after party attack gets just one year�s detention, cried
the Daily Mail on the same day�about a different incident. Collectively,
these reports paint a portrait of a nation terrorized by vomit-spewing,
tattooed thugs. And according to polls, British citizens also consider
crime an exceedingly grave problem.
But here the British government is strikingly at odds with both the
press and popular opinion. Supported by Britain�s most prominent
criminologists, the government insists that the country has, in fact,
been experiencing the longest period of falling crime since
record-keeping began. Indeed, it says, the rapid and sustained rise in
crime that began in Britain in the late 1950s has been entirely
reversed: crime reached a peak in 1995 but has since dropped by 48
percent. Home Secretary Jacqui Smith has declared herself �extremely
pleased� by the dramatic improvement in public safety.
Someone in this story is wrong. But who? Have the British people
succumbed to mass hysteria? Or is the government�s methodology flawed?
One shouldn�t discount the possibility of mass hysteria. Such things
happen. At various points in history, large numbers of people have
convinced themselves that they faced a witchcraft epidemic, a Martian
invasion, or a high risk of date rape on an American college campus (see
�The Campus Rape Myth,� Winter 2008).
Defenders of Britain�s official statistics commonly say that public
worry about crime constitutes just this kind of hysteria�and that it�s
the media�s fault. �Great lies, bold, bare-faced and unapologetic, are
relayed every day by every orifice of the media in ways that would make
Kim Jong-il proud,� writes Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee. In her
view, the press is peddling these lies to discredit the Labour Party, in
power since 1997, and to boost the fortunes of the Tories. But the idea
of a media conspiracy is inconsistent with the evidence: Technicolor
headlines are by no means confined to the anti-Labour press. Toynbee�s
own Labour-boosting newspaper, for example, regularly relays from its
own august orifices such headlines as: i was drunk. the blade went
straight into his eyeball.
Government officials are generally too sober to peddle such conspiracy
theories but tend nonetheless to blame the press for the public�s alarm.
Crime sells papers, they say. But any journalist knows what�s wrong with
this argument. You cannot sell a story that no one will believe. If
stories of crime seemed radically unconfirmed by anything in readers�
experience, no newspaper could print them, over and over and over, and
hope to stay in business. Even if I could find the odd sad-eyed,
swollen-bellied, malnourished American child, I couldn�t make a living
by writing story after story warning that Americans are eating too
little. So why would the media be able to generate hysteria about rising
crime when, if the government is right, the rising British crime rate is
as mythical as the American malnourishment crisis?
Another standard explanation for Britons� crime worries looks not to the
media but to psychology. As criminologist Richard Garside puts it: �It
is a criminological commonplace that crime anxieties are in truth
anxieties about a broader range of issues, from whether you can trust
your neighbors to whether your children will get ahead in life; from
whether your job is secure to whether you�ll be stuck next to a leering
sexist on the 7.32 am out of Basingstoke.� This may be a criminological
commonplace, but it is not a self-evident truth. No reasonably
perceptive observer of human nature would deny that people often
displace their anxieties�but generally, they displace them for a reason.
It seems rash to embrace Garside�s conclusion unless we are sure that
the government�s crime figures are robust.
But it is hard to be sure, for here is another, less advertised,
criminological commonplace: criminologists do not know how to calculate
the crime rate with precision.
The problem was first described in the 1830s by Adolphe Quetelet, a
Belgian mathematician and sociologist and the founder of modern
scientific statistics. The real crime rate, which he called the �dark
figure of crime,� could not be revealed by official statistics, he
argued: �Our observations can only refer to a certain number of known
and tried offenders out of the unknown sum total of crimes committed.
Since this sum total of crimes committed will probably ever continue
unknown, all the reasoning of which it is the basis will be more or less
defective.� The problem has plagued criminology for nearly two
centuries.
To understand why the dark figure of crime escapes exact measurement,
realize that for a crime to be officially recorded, three things must
happen: someone must be aware that a crime has been committed; someone
must report that crime; and the police must accept that a law has been
violated. But each link in the chain is easily broken. People may be
unaware that a crime has been committed because they view it as normal
or trivial behavior: in some neighborhoods, it would seem perfectly
natural to settle a dispute with a good brawl, while in others, this
would be seen as assault. Other crimes may go unrecognized because the
victims are unaware that they have been victimized�either because of the
nature of the crime, such as fraud, or because the victims are drunk,
mentally ill, or otherwise incapable of understanding what has happened.
Even when victims recognize that a crime has been committed, they may
not report it. Think of children, or of immigrants who don�t speak the
language well enough to explain what happened to them. Rapes can go
unreported because the victims are ashamed. So-called victimless crimes
involving sex and drugs also go unreported, of course, because the
criminals have no motivation to inform the police that they are hiring
prostitutes or shooting up. Crimes can also go unreported because
victims fear reprisals. Above all, crimes can go unreported because
victims feel no confidence in the police and see reporting a crime as
pointless.
Even if a crime is reported, it will not necessarily be added to the
official statistics. The police may conclude, for example, that there is
insufficient evidence to believe the report. Moreover, poorly performing
police departments have an incentive to stop recording crimes: it makes
them look more successful than they are. For these reasons and many
more, criminologists commonly posit that the dark figure of crime is far
larger than the official figure�perhaps by as much as an order of
magnitude. And there is good reason to believe that in Britain, the dark
figure is unusually high.
The British government derives its rosy estimates of the falling crime
rate from two separate sets of statistics. The first, Police Recorded
Crime, does indeed show a recent fall in the total number of crimes
recorded in England and Wales�from 6.01 million in 2004 to 4.95 million
in 2008. But the long-term trend is quite different. It shows just 2.69
million crimes recorded in 1980, a number that rose steadily until 1992,
when it reached 5.59 million. After a decline in the nineties, it began
rising again, until 2004, when it hit that all-time high of just over 6
million. While the recent drop to 4.95 million may be welcome, it is
still high by anyone�s standards: to find the last year that the British
police recorded fewer than that, you have to go back to 1999.
Defenders of the statistics counter that changes in crime-counting rules
kicked in during 1998, pushing the number of recorded crimes up.
Perhaps�but that doesn�t account for the even grimmer picture painted by
police records of violent crime. Sure enough, when the rules changed in
1998, the total number of violent crimes recorded jumped from 231,000 to
503,000. But then, even after the switch, it continued to rise sharply,
hitting a peak of 1.06 million in 2006. That number has since declined
only slightly: in 2008, the number of police-recorded violent crimes
stood at 961,000. When it comes to violence, in other words, Police
Recorded Crime actually confirms the public�s general view.
Further, the recent decline to 4.95 million total crimes recorded could
well mean that the public has lost faith in the criminal-justice system
and no longer believes that reporting crimes will result in the
punishment of the perpetrators. Support for this hypothesis comes from a
British Federation of Small Businesses poll indicating that 60 percent
of businesses in London had been victims of crime in the past year. But
proprietors reported to the police only half of the burglaries, vehicle
thefts, and assaults that they suffered�and not a single case of arson.
They didn�t think that the offenders would be caught and punished, they
explained. Going to the police just wasn�t worth their time.
A typical comment on the website of the Daily Mail makes the same point:
�A few years back I saw someone slash 4 tyres on a car. I did not report
it to the police. I am a female, living alone in a rather isolated
location. I knew that tyre slashing would probably warrant no more than
the police having a word with the perpetrator and leaving it at that,
maybe a fine, while the perpetrator would most likely have taken a more
robust approach to me.� Another writer to the website says: �I had my
car broken into in the Palmers Green area of London. I called the police
to obtain a �crime number� but was asked to call back a week later as
they were inundated with such requests. When my car was broken into
again the following year I didn�t bother reporting it.� If this attitude
is widespread enough, the dark figure of crime fades to black.
Police-recorded crime statistics are an imperfect guide for another
reason. Perhaps the number of muggings in a particular district really
has gone down. But could it be because citizens no longer venture out of
their homes at night for fear of being mugged? If someone needs to
restrict his activities more severely and purchase more elaborate
security equipment just to be as safe as he was ten years ago, his sense
that crime is rising may be more significant than the bare fact that
crime is falling. Even the murder rate may not be a particularly sound
measure of criminality, because advances in medical technology have
ensured that more victims of attempted murder survive.
Recognizing the limitations of police crime figures, governments have
begun to supplement them with a second kind of statistic, the
victimization survey�a poll that asks whether respondents have been the
victims of crime. British government officials are fond of saying that
the rigor of the British Crime Survey (BCS), an annual poll of about
50,000 homeowners in England and Wales, ensures that British crime
statistics are the world�s most reliable. The BCS suggests that the dark
figure of crime is extremely high: last year, for example, it indicated
that some 10 million crimes had been committed, far more than the
police-recorded 4.95 million. Still, the government points triumphantly
to the 16�18 million annual crimes that the BCS indicated in the
mid-1990s. Since then, officials say, the figures have come down
steadily.
But the BCS suffers from shortcomings, too. Crime sampling is a classic
problem in epidemiology and resembles, in many respects, efforts to
track the spread of HIV. You won�t necessarily gain a useful sense of
the percentage of the population that, say, shares needles by calling
100 households at random and asking whether the respondents have
recently shared a needle, for the people most likely to share needles
are those least likely to have a household. Similarly, victims of crime
are more likely than average members of society to be poor, homeless,
mentally ill, or distrustful of officious bureaucrats who call to ask
complicated, intrusive questions. Indeed, those most fearful of crime
are those least likely to open their doors to pollsters. Criminologist
Marian Fitzgerald argues that the survey doesn�t capture the extent of
violent crime in Britain because of information-gathering problems: �The
people who are most at risk of crime and serious violent crime are young
men in inner cities. For the last decade social surveys have found it
difficult to get into these areas.� And even if you can locate crime
victims and ask them questions, they are likelier than average members
of society to lie when they answer�since they are likelier, by the mere
fact of being victims, to be related to criminals or otherwise
associated with them.
Note, too, that the BCS polls homeowners, not renters. This immediately
skews the results by deflecting attention from poorer neighborhoods,
which are the areas likely to have the highest crime rates. And the
pollsters have only been sampling children under 16 since January 2009,
so crimes against youths haven�t been recorded. If you read the British
press, you will see that youth crime is what has the public most
concerned. A 2007 Freedom of Information request to Britain�s police
forces found that 40 percent of all muggings were committed by kids
under 16, many doubtless against other children. In January 2008, the
Daily Telegraph obtained figures from the Ministry of Justice indicating
that in the three years prior, violent crime committed by youths,
measured by convictions in court and the issuance of formal police
warnings, had increased by 37 percent; robberies committed by youths had
risen by 43 percent. Of course, a rise in convictions does not
necessarily indicate a rise in crime; it may indicate instead that the
government is cracking down on crime, and indeed this is how the
government explains these figures. But it is suggestive that there has
been no commensurate rise in adult convictions and warnings. The most
plausible explanation for this is that the government has been cracking
down on youth crime disproportionately because it is rising
disproportionately.
Nor does the BCS poll the victims of sex crimes, drug crimes, crimes
against commercial premises, or (obviously) murder. In 2003, David Green
of the think tank Civitas attempted to calculate the number of crimes in
some of those missing categories. The BCS that year estimated that about
13 million crimes had been committed, but using the Home Office�s
seldom-publicized estimates of police underrecording of significant
crimes, Green concluded that the true number was nearly twice that.
The BCS has other weaknesses. If a respondent claims to have been the
victim of a particular crime more than five times in the past year, the
pollsters are instructed to enter the number as five. For instance, if a
homeowner in a high-crime area reports that feral youths vandalize his
property every week, his report will enter the database as five crimes,
not 52. In 2007, researchers Graham Farrell and Ken Pease concluded that
if one refrained from �truncating the long statistical �tail� of
victimization,� the overall number of BCS crimes would be at least 3
million higher.
Are the revised crime estimates significant? It is �true but trivial,�
says Mike Hough, a criminologist at King�s College London who has helped
design the BCS since it began in 1981, that if you include all crimes,
�an astronomical amount of crime is committed.� Surely nobody is really
in a panic about petty crimes, he adds. But not all the repeat crime is
petty: according to Farrell and Pease�s study, if calculated correctly,
violent crime would be 82 percent higher. The BCS figures, on their own
terms, show substantial drops since 1995 in �acquaintance� and
�domestic� violence, but �stranger� violence and muggings�the kind of
violent crime that really terrifies people�remain at their
extraordinarily high mid-nineties levels.
And an astronomical number of petty crimes is far from a trivial
problem. As New Yorkers remember all too clearly, a city suffering from
rampant vandalism, shoplifting, petty theft, commercial fraud, drug
dealing, and public streetwalking is a low, vulgar, ugly, dishonest, and
menacing place to live. Might this ambient climate explain the British
public�s concern about crime? It�s more plausible than positing a media
conspiracy to dupe a nation of credulous hysterics.
As for the downward trend in the BCS, as with Police Recorded Crime, it
may reflect a real shift�in this case, a drop in victimization among
homeowners who have grown cautious and more aware of crime�while
completely missing a huge spike in youth crime and repeat crime in
certain disorderly urban areas. Victimization studies also show that the
crime rate in Britain is far higher than in most other European
countries. Comparative analyses show England and Wales at the very top
of the European crime leagues�and well above the U.S. as well.
Upon close inspection, the official crime statistics hardly suggest that
the concerns of the public and press should be dismissed. I propose a
counterhypothesis: the media�s treatment of crime, while obviously no
perfect measurement, may well be a better guide to what�s really
happening in Britain, or at least an equally valid one. The media,
unlike the government, are responding in real time to market demand. The
market in Britain for stories about ultraviolent juvenile delinquents is
insatiable; perhaps the people who buy these newspapers are, in effect,
responding to a better-designed survey than criminologists have been
able yet to construct.
Why might Britain be suffering such high levels of crime? It isn�t hard
to guess. Officials at every level of the British criminal-justice
system�detectives, judges, prison officials, probation officers�complain
that too few criminals are caught and that those who are caught rarely
receive sentences that will function as a deterrent. Lack of resources
and a massive bureaucracy hamper police efforts: the average time to
process an arrest in London is over ten hours, and the number of forms
that must be filled out averages about 35, according to various
analyses. Home Office figures released in 2007 show that police officers
in England and Wales spend only about 13 percent of their time on
patrol�and 20 percent on paperwork.
One London cop in the Criminal Investigation Division blames the
police�s ineffectiveness on the unintended effects of community
policing. �There was a perception that there weren�t enough beat
cops�people who knew the local area,� he remembers, which led to sending
extra cops to problem spots. �But in practice, they ended up going to
community meetings and liaison. They�re not actually dealing with minor
crimes. If they were answering emergency calls and dealing with minor
crimes instead of doing community liaison, that would indeed take a huge
load off the system, but they�re not. So in practice, what this means is
that when I started working as a police officer, there were 25 people on
staff answering 999 calls��the British equivalent of 911. �Now there are
15.�
Perhaps as a consequence, more than two-thirds of burglaries reported to
the London police are never investigated, according to police figures
released under the Freedom of Information Act and obtained by the Daily
Telegraph. Under 10 percent result in an arrest. And even if an arrest
leads to a conviction, it�s unlikely to include real punishment. The
London policeman adds that it�s common for a burglar to be arrested 30
times a year, taken to court 20 times a year, and punished with nothing
more than a fine��which is meaningless, because they can�t pay. There�s
no chance that with minor-level crimes you�ll go to prison.� A London
magistrate clarifies: �It�s not that they can�t pay, it�s that they
won�t�and the system doesn�t push the point.� Theodore Dalrymple, a
contributing editor of City Journal and a former prison doctor, tells me
that he recently met a burglar on his 57th conviction. The burglar was
fined 50 pounds, to be paid in five-pound installments�considerably less
than someone in a legitimate business, making a comparable amount of
money, would pay in taxes.
Juvenile criminals can be particularly confident that if they commit a
crime, it is unlikely to carry any serious consequences. During the
seventies and eighties, the government passed legislation making it much
harder to impose long custodial sentences on minors. The London
policeman mentions a schoolgirl in his borough who was recently arrested
and found guilty of committing �grievous bodily harm��which means that
�bones were broken, someone�s life was seriously affected; usually GBH
implies surgical follow-up.� She received a 12-month supervision order.
�Essentially, just reporting in for a year. Kids see this and say, �What
the hell, what can you do to me?� �
Joyriders celebrate after burning a stolen car in Sheffield's Manor
Estate, which has one of the highest crime rates in Europe.
Also during the seventies and eighties, the government introduced new
forms of noncustodial sentencing, including community service and
early-release schemes even for career criminals. In 2008, figures from
the Ministry of Justice indicated that some 5,000 criminals who had
already served more than ten jail sentences had received noncustodial
sentences. Not surprisingly, a third of prosecutions in London collapse
because witnesses won�t testify: they know all too well that even if
convicted, the criminals will be walking the streets terrifyingly soon.
The situation in Britain, then, resembles that of 1980s New York, whose
crime problems were routinely called insoluble. What the British
government fails to understand is that the majority of serious crimes
are committed by a small cadre of criminals, who are also,
disproportionately, the authors of minor crimes. If you lock these
criminals up�reliably, and for a long time�crime will drop
precipitously. The reason Broken Windows policing works is not that it
is inherently important to jail every petty thug who breaks a window; it
is that the window-breakers tend to be muggers, rapists, burglars, and
murderers as well. If you get them off the streets, the rate of serious
crime will fall. To dismiss as �true but trivial� the finding that �an
astronomical amount of crime is committed� in Britain is only half
right. The British people know this full well, even if their government
does not.
Claire Berlinski is an American writer who lives in Istanbul. She is the
author of Menace in Europe: Why the Continent�s Crisis Is America�s, Too
and There Is No Alternative: Why Margaret Thatcher Matters.
Gunner Asch
wrote:
>
>An American is about 3 times as likely to be a homicide victim as a Brit.
>200 years ago, long before England got into the gun prohibition business,
>the homicide rate in New York was 5 times that of London. The male
>homicide rate in Scotland is twice that of England although both have
>the same restrictions on gun possession.
>
>rw
http://gunowners.org/sk0703.htm
#3: Gun Control Has Reduced The Crime Rates In Other Countries
Myth #3: Gun Control Has Reduced The Crime Rates In Other Countries
1. Fact: The murder rates in many nations (such as England) were
ALREADY LOW BEFORE enacting gun control. Thus, their restrictive laws
cannot be credited with lowering their crime rates.1
2. Fact: Gun control has done nothing to keep crime rates from
rising in many of the nations that have imposed severe firearms
restrictions.
* Australia: Readers of the USA Today newspaper discovered in
2002 that, "Since Australia's 1996 laws banning most guns and making it
a crime to use a gun defensively, armed robberies rose by 51%, unarmed
robberies by 37%, assaults by 24% and kidnappings by 43%. While murders
fell by 3%, manslaughter rose by 16%."2
* Canada: After enacting stringent gun control laws in 1991 and
1995, Canada has not made its citizens any safer. "The contrast between
the criminal violence rates in the United States and in Canada is
dramatic," says Canadian criminologist Gary Mauser in 2003. "Over the
past decade, the rate of violent crime in Canada has increased while in
the United States the violent crime rate has plummeted." 3
* England: According to the BBC News, handgun crime in the
United Kingdom rose by 40% in the two years after it passed its
draconian gun ban in 1997.4
* Japan: One newspaper headline says it all: Police say "Crime
rising in Japan, while arrests at record low."5
3. Fact: British citizens are now more likely to become a victim of
crime than are people in the United States:
* In 1998, a study conducted jointly by statisticians from the
U.S. Department of Justice and the University of Cambridge in England
found that most crime is now worse in England than in the United States.
* "You are more likely to be mugged in England than in the
United States," stated the Reuters news agency in summarizing the study.
"The rate of robbery is now 1.4 times higher in England and Wales than
in the United States, and the British burglary rate is nearly double
America's."6 The murder rate in the United States is reportedly higher
than in England, but according to the DOJ study, "the difference between
the [murder rates in the] two countries has narrowed over the past 16
years."7
* The United Nations confirmed these results in 2000 when it
reported that the crime rate in England is higher than the crime rates
of 16 other industrialized nations, including the United States.8
4. Fact: British authorities routinely underreport crime
statistics. Comparing statistics between different nations can be quite
difficult since foreign officials frequently use different standards in
compiling crime statistics.
* The British media has remained quite critical of
authorities there for "fiddling" with crime data. Consider some of the
headlines in their papers: "Crime figures a sham, say police,"910 and
"Police figures under-record offences by 20 percent."11 "Police are
accused of fiddling crime data,"
* British police have also criticized the system because of
the "widespread manipulation" of crime data:
a. "Officers said that pressure to convince the public
that police were winning the fight against crime had resulted in a long
list of ruses to 'massage' statistics."12
b. Sgt. Mike Bennett says officers have become
increasingly frustrated with the practice of manipulating statistics.
"The crime figures are meaningless," he said. "Police everywhere know
exactly what is going on."13
c. According to The Electronic Telegraph, "Officers said
the recorded level of crime bore no resemblance to the actual amount of
crime being committed."14
* Underreporting crime data: "One former Scotland Yard
officer told The Telegraph of a series of tricks that rendered crime
figures 'a complete sham.' A classic example, he said, was where a
series of homes in a block flats were burgled and were regularly
recorded as one crime. Another involved pickpocketing, which was not
recorded as a crime unless the victim had actually seen the item being
stolen."15
* Underreporting murder data: British crime reporting
tactics keep murder rates artificially low. "Suppose that three men kill
a woman during an argument outside a bar. They are arrested for murder,
but because of problems with identification (the main witness is dead),
charges are eventually dropped. In American crime statistics, the event
counts as a three-person homicide, but in British statistics it counts
as nothing at all. 'With such differences in reporting criteria,
comparisons of U.S. homicide rates with British homicide rates is a
sham,' [a 2000 report from the Inspectorate of Constabulary]
concludes."16
5. Fact: Many nations with stricter gun control laws have
violence rates that are equal to, or greater than, that of the United
States. Consider the following rates:
(see link for table)
* The figures listed in the table are the rates per 100,000
people.
** Suicide figures for Japan also include many homicides.
Source for table: U.S. figures for 1996 are taken from the
Statistical Abstract of the U.S. and FBI Uniform Crime Reports. The rest
of the table is taken from the UN 1996 Demographic Yearbook (1998),
cited at http://www.haciendapub.com/stolinsky.html.
6. Fact: The United States has experienced far fewer TOTAL
MURDERS than Europe does over the last 70 years. In trying to claim that
gun-free Europe is more peaceful than America, gun control advocates
routinely ignore the overwhelming number of murders that have been
committed in Europe.
* Over the last 70 years, Europe has averaged about 400,000
murders per year, when one includes the murders committed by governments
against mostly unarmed people.17 That murder rate is about 16 times
higher than the murder rate in the U.S.18
* Why hasn't the United States experienced this kind of
government oppression? Many reasons could be cited, but the Founding
Fathers indicated that an armed populace was the best way of preventing
official brutality. Consider the words of James Madison in Federalist
46:
Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the
country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the
federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the
State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel
the danger . . . a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens
with arms in their hands.19
1Kleck, Point Blank, at 393, 394; Colin Greenwood, Chief Inspector
of West Yorkshire Constabulary, Firearms Control: A Study of Armed Crime
and Firearms Control in England and Wales (1972):31; David Kopel, The
Samurai, the Mountie, and the Cowboy: Should America Adopt the Gun
Controls of Other Democracies (1992):91, 154.
2Dr. John R. Lott, Jr., "Gun laws don't reduce crime," USA Today
(May 9, 2002). See also Rhett Watson and Matthew Bayley, "Gun crime up
40pc since Port Arthur," The Daily Telegraph (April 28, 2002).
3 Gary A. Mauser, "The Failed Experiment: Gun Control and Public
Safety in Canada, Australia, England and Wales," Public Policy Sources
(The Fraser Institute, November 2003), no. 71:4. This study can be
accessed at
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/shared/readmore.asp?sNav=pb&id=604.
4"Handgun crime 'up' despite ban," BBC News Online (July 16, 2001)
at http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/uk/newsid_1440000/1440764.stm.
England is a prime example of how crime has increased after implementing
gun control. For example, the original Pistols Act of 1903 did not stop
murders from increasing on the island. The number of murders in England
was 68 percent higher the year after the ban's enactment (1904) as
opposed to the year before (1902). (Greenwood, supra note 1.) This was
not an aberration, as almost seven decades later, firearms crimes in the
U.K. were still on the rise: the number of cases where firearms were
used or carried in a crime skyrocketed almost 1,000 percent from 1946
through 1969. (Greenwood, supra note 1 at 158.) And by 1996, the murder
rate in England was 132 percent higher than it had been before the
original gun ban of 1903 was enacted. (Compare Greenwood, supra note 1,
with Bureau of Justice Statistics, Crime and Justice in the United
States and in England and Wales, 1981-96, Bureau of Justice Statistics,
October 1998).
5"Crime rising in Japan, while arrests at record low: police," AFP
News (August 3, 2001); "A crime wave alarms Japan, once gun-free," The
Philadelphia Inquirer, 11 July 1992.
6"Most Crime Worse in England Than US, Study Says," Reuters (October
11, 1998). See also Bureau of Justice Statistics, Crime and Justice in
the United States and in England and Wales, 1981-96 (October 1998).
7See BJS study, supra note 6 at iii.
8John van Kesteren, Pat Mayhew and Paul Nieuwbeerta, "Criminal
Victimisation in Seventeen Industrialised Courtries: Key findings from
the 2000 International Crime Victims Survey," (2000). This study can be
read at http://www.unicri.it/icvs/publications/index_pub.htm. The link
is to the ICVS homepage; study data are available for download as
Acrobat pdf files.
9Ian Henry and Tim Reid, "Crime figures a sham, say police," The
Electronic Telegraph (April 1, 1996).
10Tim Reid, "Police are accused of fiddling crime data," The
Electronic Telegraph (May 4, 1997).
11John Steele, "Police figures under-record offences by 20 percent,"
The Electronic Telegraph (July 13, 2000).
12See supra note (Crime figures a sham...)
13Ibid.
14Ibid.
15See supra note (fiddling).
16Dave Kopel, Dr. Paul Gallant and Dr. Joanne Eisen, "Britain: From
Bad to Worse," NewsMax.com (March 22, 2001).
17The number of people killed by their own government in Europe
averages about 400,000 for the last 70 years. This includes Hitler's
extermination of Jews, gypsies and other peoples (20,946,000); Stalin's
genocide against the Ukrainian kulaks (6,500,000); and more. R.J.
Rummel, Death by Government (2000), pp. 8 and 80.
18At our historic worst, murders in the United States approached
25,000 in 1993 -- or 23,180 to be exact. So even applying our highest
single-year tally over the past 70 years would mean that Europeans have
experienced 16 times as many murders as we have in the United States.
19THE FEDERALIST 46 (James Madison).
Gunner Asch
wrote:
>> .
>> Americans are over 30 times more likely to die of a gunshot wound than a Brit.
>>
>
>An American is about 3 times as likely to be a homicide victim as a Brit.
>200 years ago, long before England got into the gun prohibition business,
>the homicide rate in New York was 5 times that of London. The male
>homicide rate in Scotland is twice that of England although both have
>the same restrictions on gun possession.
>
>rw
Tuesday, 16 June 2009
Check Out The US Crime Figures for 2005
The Black crime rate in the US is approximately 8.1 times greater than
the White crime rate.
It is about 36.8 times higher than the US Asian rate, which itself is
4.6 times lower than the White rate.
It is even 4 times higher than the US Amerindian and Polynesian (mostly
Hawaiian) crime rates.
It is also 2.4 times higher than the extremely high Hispanic crime rate.
These rates are particularly disparate when one looks at such things as
rape.
For instance, in 2005, Black criminals raped 37,460 White females, while
between 0-10 (they don't even keep records below 10 rapes) Black females
were raped by a White man.
There is also a suggestion that about 10,000 of those 37,000+ rapes were
by groups of more than one Black male (gang rapes).
Gunner Asch
wrote:
>> .
>> Americans are over 30 times more likely to die of a gunshot wound than a Brit.
>>
>
>An American is about 3 times as likely to be a homicide victim as a Brit.
>200 years ago, long before England got into the gun prohibition business,
>the homicide rate in New York was 5 times that of London. The male
>homicide rate in Scotland is twice that of England although both have
>the same restrictions on gun possession.
>
>rw
More gun control isn't the answer
By John R. Lott Jr. and Eli Lehrer
Gun control has not worked in Canada. Since the new gun registration
program started in 1998, the U.S. homicide rate has fallen, but the
Canadian rate has increased. The net cost of Canada's gun registry has
surged beyond $1-billion -- more than 500 times the amount originally
estimated. Despite this, the Canadian government recently admitted it
could not identify a single violent crime that had been solved through
registration. Public confidence in the government's ability to fight
crime has also eroded, with one recent survey showing only 17% of voters
support the registration program.
So, if this hasn't worked, what's the solution? The NDP, which polls
indicate may hold the balance of power in Parliament after June 28, has
proposed a radical solution: "going across the border to the U.S. and
actively engaging in lobbying to have gun -control laws in the U.S.
strengthened."
This is part of an ironic pattern: When gun control laws fail -- as they
consistently do, whether in Canada, the United States or other countries
-- politicians seek to pass new laws rather than eliminate the old ones.
In the United States, gun -control groups now claim that the 1994 Brady
Act implementing background checks and assault-weapon bans failed to
reduce crime only because they didn't go far enough; and that city bans
on handguns in Chicago and Washington, D.C., failed only because other
jurisdictions didn't follow suit.
The same logic applies overseas: With violent crime and gun crime
soaring in the United Kingdom, where handguns are already banned, the
British government is banning imitation guns. And in Australia, state
governments are banning ceremonial swords.
Yet, the laws in Australia, Britain and Canada were adopted under what
gun control advocates would argue were ideal conditions. All three
countries adopted laws that applied to the entire country. Australia and
Britain are surrounded by water, and thus do not have the easy smuggling
problem that Canada claims with regard to the United States. The new
attempts to ban toys or cast blame on the United States, reek of
desperation.
Crime did not fall in England after handguns were banned in 1997. Quite
the contrary, crime rose sharply. In May, the British government
reported that gun crime in England and Wales nearly doubled in the last
four years. Serious violent crime rates from 1997 to 2002 averaged 29%
higher than 1996; robbery was 24% higher; murders 27% higher. Before the
law, armed robberies had fallen by 50% from 1993 to 1997, but as soon as
handguns were banned, the armed robbery rate shot back up, almost back
to their 1993 levels. The violent crime rate in England is now double
that in the United States.
Australia saw its violent crime rates soar after its 1996 gun control
measures banned most firearms. Violent crime rates averaged 32% higher
in the six years after the law was passed than they did the year before
the law went into effect. Murder and manslaughter rates remained
unchanged, but armed robbery rates increased 74%, aggravated assaults by
32%. Australia's violent crime rate is also now double America's. In
contrast, the United States took the opposite approach and made it
easier for individuals to carry guns. Thirty-seven of the 50 states now
have right-to-carry laws that let law-abiding adults carry concealed
handguns once they pass a criminal background check. Violent crime in
the United States has fallen much faster than in Canada, and violent
crime has fallen even faster inright-to-carry states than for the nation
as a whole. The states with the fastest growth in gun ownership have
also experienced the biggest drops in violent crime rates.
It is understandable that Canadians are focusing on crime as the
election nears. Everyone wants to take guns away from criminals. The
problem is that law-abiding citizens obey the laws and criminals don't.
Even in the unlikely event that a Canadian government were to convince
the United States to ban guns, that would provide no more of a magic
solution to Canadian crime than its own failed gun registry.
John Lott Jr, a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute in
Washington, is author of "More Guns, Less Crime" (University of Chicago
Press, 2000) and "The Bias Against Guns" (Regnery, 2003).
A follow up letter to the editor in The National Post is available here.
National Post (Canada)
June 17, 2004 Thursday National Edition
SECTION: Editorials; Pg. A21
LENGTH: 209 words
HEADLINE: Get serious about crime
SOURCE: National Post
BYLINE: Gary A. Mauser
BODY: It should not surprise many people that Canada's gun laws have not
worked (More Gun Control Isn't The Answer, John R. Lott Jr., June 15).
Anyone living in a big Canadian city has witnessed the horrifying
increase in violent crime over the past decade.
Canada's violent crime rate is now higher than in the United States. Our
burglary and assault rates are particularly frightening, and illegal
handguns are increasingly misused in our largest cities.
This is the result of the Liberal government's failure to punish violent
criminals and instead to criminalize hunters and target shooters if they
fail toget a licence and to register their shotguns and rifles.
Nor do gun laws work any better in Great Britain or Australia. In a
recent study for the Fraser Institute, I showed that gun laws in those
countries havefailed to stop increases in violent crime and homicides.
In contrast, violent crime and homicide rates are plummeting in the
United States. Violent crime is dropping even faster in those states
that allow citizens to carry concealed handguns.
When is Ottawa going to get serious about stoping violent criminals?
Gary A. Mauser, professor, Institute for Canadian Urban Research
Studies, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C.
Gunner Asch
wrote:
>> .
>> Americans are over 30 times more likely to die of a gunshot wound than a Brit.
>>
>
>An American is about 3 times as likely to be a homicide victim as a Brit.
>200 years ago, long before England got into the gun prohibition business,
>the homicide rate in New York was 5 times that of London. The male
>homicide rate in Scotland is twice that of England although both have
>the same restrictions on gun possession.
>
>rw
British Gun Crime up 242 Percent; Post Says 'Laws Seen As Curbing
By Ken Shepherd (Bio | Archive)
April 24, 2007 - 12:06 ET
This morning, NewsBusters contributing editor Dan Gainor brought this
Washington Post article to my attention:
"Britain's Gun Laws Seen as Curbing Attacks"
But the problem is that while anti-gun activists recited those talking
points in Post foreign service correspondent Mary Jordan's April 24
story, the empirical evidence shows otherwise.
The number of crimes in which a handgun was used in England and
Wales has risen from 299 in 1995 to 1,024 last year. Offenses committed
with all types of firearms, including air guns, have also increased.
That's an increase of 725 gun crimes in 11 years, a 242 percent
increase. Britain already had strict gun control before the 1996
Dunblane, Scotland, school shooting, and in 1997 both Conservative and
Labour governments pushed through fresh gun control legislation banning
small caliber handguns.
Jordan did note that gun fatalities are down at just 50 deaths in the
U.K. last year from 55 in 1995, yet Jordan carefully inserted a caveat
earlier in the same paragraph.
"According to government statistics, the number of people killed by guns
has essentially stayed the same, with dips and spikes, as before the
1997 gun control laws went into effect," she wrote.
"Dips and spikes?" Perhaps like the spike in total homicides in England
and Wales in the years following the 1997 gun laws? Homicides peaked at
over 1,000 in the 2002-3 survey period. The number has since fallen to
just above 1997-8 levels.
What about the oft-repeated meme that gun-free Britain is much less
violent than the United States? Jordan doesn't raise that meme per se,
but neither does she compare apples to apples. Has Britain historically
been less violent, more violent, or similarly violent per capita to the
United States? Jordan doesn't say.
The better comparison, in fact, is if Britain has become more or less
violent since the 1997 gun laws.
The notion that it's become less violent doesn't wash according to data
from the British government.
What about "possession of weapons." Surely arrests for illegal weapons
is on a downward trend, right?
Wrong.
Gunner Asch
wrote:
>> .
>> Americans are over 30 times more likely to die of a gunshot wound than a Brit.
>>
>
>An American is about 3 times as likely to be a homicide victim as a Brit.
>200 years ago, long before England got into the gun prohibition business,
>the homicide rate in New York was 5 times that of London. The male
>homicide rate in Scotland is twice that of England although both have
>the same restrictions on gun possession.
>
>rw
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223193/Culture-violence-Gun-crime-goes-89-decade.html
Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade
By James Slack
Last updated at 8:42 AM on 27th October 2009
Gun crime has increased five-fold in some parts of the UK
Gun crime has almost doubled since Labour came to power as a culture of
extreme gang violence has taken hold.
The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm
offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to
9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
In some parts of the country, the number of offences has increased more
than five-fold.
In eighteen police areas, gun crime at least doubled.
The statistic will fuel fears that the police are struggling to contain
gang-related violence, in which the carrying of a firearm has become
increasingly common place.
Last week, police in London revealed they had begun carrying out armed
patrols on some streets.
The move means officers armed with sub-machine guns are engaged in
routine policing for the first time.
Shadow Home Secretary, Chris Grayling, said last night: 'In areas
dominated by gang culture, we're now seeing guns used to settle scores
between rivals as well as turf wars between rival drug dealers.
'We need to redouble our efforts to deal with the challenge.'
He added: 'These figures are all the more alarming given that it is only
a week since the Metropolitan Police said it was increasing regular
armed patrols in some areas of the capital'.
More...
* The raid that rocked the Met: Why gun and drugs op on 6,717 safety
deposit boxes could cost taxpayer a fortune
* Motorcycle police with machine guns to patrol violent gang hot
spots
The gun crime figures, which were obtained by the Tories from official
Parliamentary answers, do not include air weapons.
But they provide the first regional breakdown of the increasing use of
firearms.
Lancashire suffered the single largest rise in gun crime, with recorded
offences increasing from 50 in 1998/99 to 349 in 2007/08, an increase of
598 per cent.
Heckler Koch
Armed: Officers engaged in routine policing are carrying sub-machine
guns for the first time
Only four police forces - Cleveland-Humberside, Cambridgeshire and
Sussex - recorded falls in gun crime.
The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons,
has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in
2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent .
The figures follow a warning by Mr Grayling that U.S.-style gang culture
has reached some parts of the UK.
In August, he made a controversial speech warning that a collapse of
'civilised life' had allowed a brutal drug and gun crime culture - like
that of the U.S. TV show The Wire - to flourish in Britain.
The hit TV series tracks the nightmare of gangs and organised crime in
inner city West Baltimore and the futile efforts of police to deal with
them.
The Met's decision to employ armed officers on the streets has attracted
criticism.
But the force, which has already begun the scheme, insists that the
unprecedented tactic is a proportionate and temporary response to
prevent armed gangs from controlling estates.
Trident
Trident poster campaign warning of dangers of young women and girls
storing and transporting guns for others
Last month, police warned that teenage girls were now being dragged into
the gun culture by hiding weapons for their boyfriends.
Police are targeting girls between 15 and 19 with an advertising blitz
warning them that they can expect a five-year prison sentence if they
are caught.
The number of women charged with firearms offences in London has
increased six-fold in the past year - 12 have been charged since
January.
Seven of them were teenagers, including a 16-year-old arrested after a
9mm Browning self-loading pistol was found in her bedroom.
Gunner Asch
wrote:
>> .
>> Americans are over 30 times more likely to die of a gunshot wound than a Brit.
>>
>
>An American is about 3 times as likely to be a homicide victim as a Brit.
>200 years ago, long before England got into the gun prohibition business,
>the homicide rate in New York was 5 times that of London. The male
>homicide rate in Scotland is twice that of England although both have
>the same restrictions on gun possession.
>
>rw
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/issues/firearms/control.html
Gunner Asch
wrote:
>> .
>> Americans are over 30 times more likely to die of a gunshot wound than a Brit.
>>
>
>An American is about 3 times as likely to be a homicide victim as a Brit.
>200 years ago, long before England got into the gun prohibition business,
>the homicide rate in New York was 5 times that of London. The male
>homicide rate in Scotland is twice that of England although both have
>the same restrictions on gun possession.
>
>rw
WEAPONS OF CHOICE
British editorial slams gun control
Says firearm bans punish 'law-abiding' while driving up crime
Posted: January 8, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern
By Jon Dougherty
� 2003 WorldNetDaily.com
An editorial in a leading British newspaper criticizes that nation's
gun-control laws, pointing out that "total" bans on some weapons only
help criminals while punishing law-abiding citizens.
The London Telegraph column, published Jan. 5, also said the country's
violent crime rate was rising and predicted that London's murder rate,
which is rising, would overtake New York City's rate, which is falling.
"New York has just recorded the lowest murder rate since the 19th
century. I'll bet that in the next two years London's murder rate
overtakes it," said opinion writer Mark Steyn.
Citing a recent U.N. crime survey, Steyn said, "England and Wales now
have the highest crime rate of the world's 20 leading nations."
"One can query the methodology of the survey while still recognizing the
peculiar genius by which British crime policy has wound up with every
indicator going haywire � draconian gun control plus vastly increased
gun violence plus stratospheric property crime," he wrote.
Steyn said since the British government imposed its "total ban" on
handguns five years ago, "there are more and more guns being used by
more and more criminals in more and more crimes." And now, in the wake
of shootings in Birmingham over New Year's, "there are calls for the
total ban to be made even more total: If the gangs refuse to obey the
existing laws, we'll just pass more laws for them not to obey."
The editorial tied an increase in gangland activity and drugs to
England's increase in violent crime. Steyn also said much of the
increased crime was "black-on-black" violence.
He said it wasn't "politically feasible" to suggest that some ethnic
groups � particularly the Jamaican drug gangs � "be subjected to special
immigration scrutiny."
"This basic approach of addressing any cultural factors apart from the
ones that correlate was pioneered by American progressives," he wrote.
"The corpulent provocateur Michael Moore, in his film 'Bowling for
Columbine,' currently delighting British audiences, spends an entire
feature-length documentary investigating the 'culture' of American gun
violence without mentioning that blacks, who make up 13 percent of the
population, account for over half the murders (and murder victims, too).
Once you factor them out, Americans kill at about the same rate as
nancy-boy Canadians."
"America's traditionally high and England and Wales' traditionally low
murder rates are remorselessly converging," Steyn said. "In 1981, the
U.S. rate was nine times higher than the English. By 1995, it was six
times. Last year, it was down to 3.5. Given that U.S. statistics, unlike
the British ones, include manslaughter and other lesser charges, the
real rate is much closer."
blacks, who make up 13 percent of the population, account for over half
the murders (and murder victims, too). Once you factor them out,
Americans kill at about the same rate as nancy-boy Canadians."
blacks, who make up 13 percent of the population, account for over half
the murders (and murder victims, too). Once you factor them out,
Americans kill at about the same rate as nancy-boy Canadians."
blacks, who make up 13 percent of the population, account for over half
the murders (and murder victims, too). Once you factor them out,
Americans kill at about the same rate as nancy-boy Canadians."
blacks, who make up 13 percent of the population, account for over half
the murders (and murder victims, too). Once you factor them out,
Americans kill at about the same rate as nancy-boy Canadians."
blacks, who make up 13 percent of the population, account for over half
the murders (and murder victims, too). Once you factor them out,
Americans kill at about the same rate as nancy-boy Canadians."
blacks, who make up 13 percent of the population, account for over half
the murders (and murder victims, too). Once you factor them out,
Americans kill at about the same rate as nancy-boy Canadians."
Gray Ghost
september.org:
Nope I advocate firearms for black men being attacked by blockheads. How
about you?
--
�Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel
of envy, its inherent value is the equal sharing of misery.� Winston
Churchill
Beam Me Up Scotty
> On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 00:04:42 -0600, "r wiley" <raw...@southslope.net>
> wrote:
>
>>> .
>>> Americans are over 30 times more likely to die of a gunshot wound than a Brit.
>>>
Sky diving, hunting, wild animal attacks, flying, bungie jumping....
cave diving, surfing, driving a car, mountain/rock climbing....
We do more than most societies for entertainment and we have a variety
of dangers from Florida to Alaska.
Beam Me Up Scotty
> Sid9 wrote:
>
>>
>> Guns are for men with small dicks who have doubts about their manhood.
>>
What does that say about gun confiscators.... that they are
emasculating themselves and other? Isn't that the behavior of a sick
individual with repressed sexual problems, maybe gun haters were
sexually abused by their mothers and hate male sexual organs because
their mommy told them how dirty men are and that dirty little boys with
thingies need to be singled out and their thingies need to be punished....
The fear of guns is a neurosis culminating in OCD, when you see or hear
the word "gun", you are suddenly paralyzed with fear..... memories of
mommy and being punished I suspect.
nraclaptrap
@news.netins.net:
> 200 years ago, long before England got into the gun prohibition business,
> the homicide rate in New York was 5 times that of London.
What's your source for that statistic? And how many ordinary English
civilians owned guns 200 years ago, Aint Wiley?
--
NRACLAPTRAP
r wiley
"Sid9" <si...@belsouth.net> wrote in message news:hd5j7u$o0s$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>
> Guns are for men with small dicks who have doubts about their manhood.
>
Another testament that all the gun grabbers are cock queens. If you don't think
my penis is big enough, that's your problem, not mine.
rw
Berry Oakley
Most of them.
Bama Brian
> "Sid9" <si...@belsouth.net> wrote in news:hd70hu$333$1...@news.eternal-
> september.org:
>
>
>>>>>> And of course implementing and enforcing psych testing would have
>>>>>> prevented this bloodshed.
>>>>> The trouble is the shooter IS a psychiatrist. And he is nutty as
>>>>> a
>>>>> left winger. He tested himself and found out he was just fine.
>>>>>
>>>>> it and predicting it for years. I'm not alone. Gun and ammo sales
>>>>> skyrocketed as soon as it became clear we were going to get stuck
>>>>> with that little old, left winger, gun grabber, Barry Hussein.
>>>> If you're talking about Texas gun laws, the legislature would
>>>> probably deregulate CCW even more, except that we want to lure
>>>> world-class researchers to Texas, create some research and tech
>>>> jobs, we just passed a constitutional amendment about that, but it
>>>> means we have to forget about guns on campus and other nonsensical
>>>> gun permissions.
>>> Since the evidence is in that homicide and violent crime rates are
>>> directly proportional to infringements on the right of the people to
>>> keep and bear arms, logical people would seek empoyment where those
>>> infrimgements are least oppressive.
>
> Says who? I never heard or read anything remotely like that except when
> NRA-induced gunloons robotically repeat lies the NRA's trial lawyers
> insert in you feeble mind.
>
> Cite that evidence, Sidney.
>
> They're talented people with a bright future making good money. Why
> would they buy a home in an armed camp when they could live in a nice
> neighborhood someplace with reasonable gun control laws?
Like the District of Columbia?
>
> Universal background checks on all gun transactions as well as licensing
> and registration of all guns would put an end to that. It would make the
> criminals much easier to catch.
Like the District of Columbia?
--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana
Too_Many_Tools
wrote:
> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:309674cb-98e7-4096...@m25g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 6, 10:45 pm, Rastus <n...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> > Too_Many_Tools <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> > news:f468b350-f24b-4740-
> > b837-55ae4be69...@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com:
>
> > > Hmmm...looks like these soldiers were in the situation as the student
> > > shootings...duck and run like hell.
>
> > > Makes all those winger comments about how the students should have
> > > done this and that look rather silly.
>
> > Brainwashed sand niggers who walk around in white dresses spouting versus
> > from the Quaran are NOT and NEVER WILL BE Americans.
>
> Sorry stupid winger but the shooter WAS AN AMERICAN.
>
> TMT
>
> Sorry stupid TMT, the shooter was a life-long Muslim who hated America, used
> America, killed, Americans. He may have been born here but he was a Born
> Killer.
It isn't "...MAY HAVE BEEN BORN HERE..."....HE WAS BORN HERE.
As for hating America, it sounds like he loved both this Country and
the Country of his ancestors.
Something that cannot be said for many Republicans.
TMT
Too_Many_Tools
> Hmmm...looks like these soldiers were in the situation as the student
> shootings...duck and run like hell.
>
> Makes all those winger comments about how the students should have
> done this and that look rather silly.
>
> prevented this bloodshed.
>
>
> Wanna bet some new gun laws are coming?
>
>
> But for heroes, bloodbath could have been worse
> By ALLEN G. BREED and JEFF CARLTON, Associated Press Writers Allen G.
> Breed And Jeff Carlton, Associated Press Writers
>
> FORT HOOD, Texas – Pfc. Marquest Smith, on his way to Afghanistan in
> January, was completing routine paperwork about a bee-sting allergy
> when the sounds erupted.
>
> A loud, popping noise. Moans. The sudden, urgent shout of "Gun!"
>
> Smith poked his head over the cubicle's partition and saw an
> extraordinary sight: An Army officer with two guns, firing into the
> crowded room.
>
> The 21-year-old Fort Worth native quickly grabbed the civilian worker
> who'd been helping with his paperwork and forced her under the desk.
> He lay low for several minutes, waiting for the shooter to run out of
> ammunition and wishing he, too, had a gun.
>
> After the shooter stopped to reload, Smith made a run for it. Pushing
> two other soldiers in front of him, he made it out of the Soldier
> Readiness Processing center — only to plunge into the building twice
> more to help the wounded.
>
> Smith had survived the worst mass shooting on an American military
> base, a rampage of more than 100 shots that left 13 dead and 30
> wounded, including the alleged shooter, Army psychiatrist Maj. Nidal
> Malik Hasan.
>
> It could have been much worse, but for the heroics of Smith and others
> — like the 19-year-old private who ignored her own wounds, and the
> diminutive civilian police officer whose gunfire helped take down
> Hasan.
>
> "Unfortunately over the past eight years, our Army has been no
> stranger to tragedy," said a somber Gen. George Casey, Army chief of
> staff. "But we are an Army that draws strength from adversity. And
> hearing the stories of courage and heroism that I heard today makes me
> proud to be the leader of this great Army."
>
> ___
>
> Home of the 1st Cavalry and 1st Army Division West, Fort Hood has seen
> more than its share of deployments and casualties in the past eight
> years.
>
> As a psychiatrist, Hasan, 39, had listened to soldiers' tales of
> horror. Now, the American-born Muslim was facing imminent deployment
> to Afghanistan. In recent days, Hasan had been saying goodbye to
> friends. He had given away many of his possessions, including copies
> of the Holy Quran.
>
> At 2:37 a.m. Thursday and again around 5, Hasan called neighbor Willie
> Bell. Bell could normally hear Hasan's morning prayers through the
> thin apartment walls, but Hasan skipped the ritual Thursday.
>
> Bell didn't pick up either time, but Hasan left a message.
>
> "Nice knowing you, old friend," Hasan said. "I'm going to miss you."
>
> About an hour later, surveillance cameras at a 7-Eleven across from
> the base captured images of a smiling Hasan, dressed in a long white
> garment and white kufi prayer cap, buying his usual breakfast — coffee
> and a hash brown.
>
> At the processing center on the southern edge of the 100,000-acre
> base, soldiers returning from overseas mingled with colleagues filling
> out forms and undergoing medical tests in preparation for deployment.
>
> Around 1:30 p.m., witnesses say a man later identified as Hasan jumped
> up on a desk and shouted the words "Allahu Akbar!" — Arabic for "God
> is great!" He was armed with two pistols, one a semiautomatic capable
> of firing up to 20 rounds without reloading.
>
> Packed into cubicles with 5-foot-high dividers, the 300 unarmed
> soldiers were sitting ducks. Those who weren't hit by direct fire were
> struck by rounds ricocheting off the desks and tile floor.
>
> When he decided that Hasan wasn't close to being out of ammo, Smith
> made a dash for the door. He'd made it outside when he heard cries
> from within.
>
> "I don't want to die."
>
> "This really hurts."
>
> "Help me get out of here."
>
> Smith rushed back inside and found two wounded. He grabbed them by
> their collars and dragged them outside.
>
> His second time through the door, he ran into the shooter, whose back
> was to him. Smith turned and fled, bullets whizzing by his head and
> hitting the walls as he rushed outside.
>
> Around this time, Fort Hood Police Sgt. Kimberly Munley got the call
> of "shots fired." The SRP isn't on Munley's beat; she was in the area
> because her vehicle was in the shop.
>
> Munley, 34, was on the scene within three minutes.
>
> Just over 5 feet tall, Munley is an advanced firearms instructor and
> civilian member of Fort Hood's special reaction team. She had trained
> on "active shooter" scenarios after the April 2007 mass shooting at
> Virginia Tech University. She didn't wait for backup.
>
> As Munley approached the squat, rectangular building, a soldier
> emerged from a door with a gunman in pursuit. The officer fired, and
> the uniformed shooter wheeled and charged.
>
> Another officer, Senior Sgt. Mark Todd, also responded to the sound of
> gunfire. He arrived to find Hasan "just standing there, hiding behind
> a telephone pole."
>
> "He just looked like he was calm and he was just pointing, it was
> almost like he was pointing his finger at me," Todd told CNN in an
> interview late Friday. "But then I seen the weapon. ... I just know I
> seen the weapon and muzzle flashes and then that's when we returned
> the fire."
>
> Munley was hit at least three times in the exchange — twice through
> the left leg and once in her right wrist. Hasan was hit four times.
> It's not clear whose bullets hit the suspect, but from the first shots
> to the last, authorities say the whole incident lasted less than 10
> minutes.
>
> ___
>
> Pfc. Jeffrey Pearsall, 21, from Houston, was waiting outside in the
> parking lot for Smith. He was talking to his brother on a cell phone
> when a group of soldiers ran out the door and a window shattered.
>
> It was only then that he heard the gunshots.
>
> He pulled his pickup truck forward, then hopped out and helped the
> wounded into the bed. He loaded as many as he could and sped off to
> the base hospital.
>
> Next door, at the Howze Theater, Spc. Elliot Valdez was filming a
> graduation ceremony for soldiers who'd completed correspondence
> courses. Several proud scholars were posing for a group shot when
> Valdez heard a pounding at the side door.
>
> The door burst open and the theater filled with shouts of "Medic!" and
> "Stay in the building!" A combat videographer who returned from a 15-
> month Iraq tour in January, some of it in the notorious Sadr City
> slums, Valdez ran out into the sunlight.
>
> Crouching as he continued to roll tape, Valdez could see windows
> broken by fleeing victims. He saw a soldier in his Class A dress
> uniform with a gunshot in his back. Soldiers in flowing black
> graduation robes and purple sashes rushed to help.
>
> Pfc. Amber Bahr, 19, of Random Lake, Wis., tore up her blouse and used
> it as a tourniquet on a wounded comrade. It was only later that she
> realized she'd been shot in the back, the bullet exiting her abdomen.
>
> Sgt. Andrew Hagerman, a military police officer, was patrolling a
> housing area when word of shootings crackled over his radio.
>
> As he arrived at the processing center, bloodied soldiers, some
> shirtless, were already treating each other on the grass outside,
> ripping pant legs off and tying off wounds. Munley — with whom
> Hagerman had exchanged small talk on patrols — was being loaded into
> an ambulance.
>
> Hasan lay on the ground, his two handguns beside him, as medical
> personnel struggled to remove his handcuffs to treat his wounds.
>
> Hagerman entered the building, took a deep breath and asked himself:
> "What do I need to do?"
>
> He picked his way around the room's edges, careful not to step in
> pools of blood or to kick any spent shell casings. He had seen death
> during his two tours in Iraq, but nothing that compared with this.
>
> In the confusion, Army Reserve Spc. Grant Moxon, 23, lost his cell
> phone. He borrowed a comrade's phone to send a text to his family in
> Lodi, Wis.
>
> The message stated simply: "Grant. I was shot in the leg. I'll be
> OK."
>
> Sgt. Howard Appleby, 31, was at the hospital for his regular meeting
> with a psychiatrist. Appleby, who was born in Jamaica and grew up in
> New York City, sustained a traumatic brain injury and has post-
> traumatic stress disorder from a roadside bomb blast during a tour in
> Iraq.
>
> His appointment canceled, Appleby found himself pulling the dead and
> wounded from ambulances. In combat, he was used to one or two
> casualties a day. "This," he thought, "is crazy."
>
> Lt. Col. Larry Masullo, an emergency room physician from Farmingdale,
> N.Y., was heading into a monthly meeting to review new doctors'
> credentials when he heard of the shootings.
>
> "Yeah, OK," he said. "Multiple gunshot wounds. Is this a drill?"
>
> In the next hour and a half, he would treat nearly two dozen
> soldiers.
>
> For several hours, authorities feared there were several gunmen. By
> the end of the day, it was clear Hasan had acted alone, they said.
>
> ___
>
> Hasan, hooked up to a ventilator, was moved Friday to a military
> hospital in San Antonio. The woman who stopped him, Munley, awaited
> surgery Friday to remove the bullets from her leg. Her husband was
> flying in from Fort Bragg, N.C.
>
> Her boss, Chuck Medley, was thankful. "If an officer had to be close
> by to respond," he said, "Kim Munley is someone we'd want to be
> there."
>
> Marquest Smith says some of the people he helped made it. But he knows
> others did not.
>
> Afterward, Smith noticed a hole in heel of his right combat boot. A
> bullet had entered the boot, but he had somehow escaped injury — at
> least the physical kind.
>
> After the adrenaline wore off, Smith was overwhelmed by a sense of
> betrayal, because this assailant who spilled so much blood was a
> soldier.
>
> "We're supposed to be a family," he said.
>
> ___
>
> EDITOR'S NOTE: AP Writers Mike Baker and Paul J. Weber also
> contributed to this report.
Interesting how the wingers aren't telling us how it could have been
prevented with more guns?
Cat got your tongue?
TMT
Bama Brian
For the sake of comparison, here are some stats I've compiled.
The US, Canada, the UK, Australia, and New Zealand all have similar
statistics in overall assaults per 1,000. I include this solely to
point out that anger and violence are no more predominant in the US than
in other English speaking countries.
Australia: 7.0
UK: 7.4
Canada: 7.1
New Zealand: 7.4
US: 7.5
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ass_percap-crime-assaults-per-capita
With or without guns, it is likely that the US overall could have as low
a murder rate as do Britain, Canada, and Australia - provided one caveat
of ignoring the statistics of the "ethnically challenged". However, I
can make that case with some US states today, even including the
"ethnically challenged" statistics.
Non-negligent homicides are included in the US statistic, which only the
US has historically done.
Murders per 100K
Australia: 1.5
Canada: 1.5
UK: 1.4
New Zealand: 1.1
US: 4.2
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita
Murders and non-negligent manslaughter from selected US States, per 100K
Hawaii: 1.7
Maine: 1.6
Iowa: 1.2
Montana: 1.5
North Dakota: 1.9
New Hampshire: 1.1
Oregon: 1.9
Rhode Island: 1.8
Vermont: 1.9
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/data/table_05.html
The average homicide rate for those nine states is 1.6 per 100K, which
is clearly at the same level of the so-called gun-free countries.
Remember, the US includes non-negligent homicides.
Yes, I've cherry-picked the nine states. But we are still discussing
the US and its "gun problem". So why are the *per capita* rates of
homicide so much lower in these states, when all 50 states have varying
levels of easy access to firearms?
Could it be that it is NOT the availability of guns that drives the
homicide rates?
RD (The Sandman)
news:MPG.2560d13...@news.bytemine.net:
> In article <hd5muv$aru$1...@news.netins.net>, raw...@southslope.net
> says...
>>
>> "tankfixer" <paul.c...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:MPG.255fdb0...@news.bytemine.net...
>> > In article <hd57um$f5g$4...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>> > CurlySu...@live.com says...
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 14:28:22 -0800, tankfixer
>> >> <paul.c...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > pot is for dopes
>> >>
>> >> Tell me that when you have chemotherapy, arthritis or glaucoma...
>> >
>> > YOu another of those "medicinal" growers ?
>> > Like the ones caught in southern oregon with a couple hundred
>> > pounds ?
>>
>> Marijuana, like most controlled substances, is a lot less hazardous
>> than Richard Nixon's "War on Drugs"
>>
>> Although Nixon created the "War on Drugs", every president since has
>> kept the statutes in place and prosecuted them vigorously. Bill
>> Clinton finally acknowledged that marijuana should be decriminalized
>> in December 2000, when he had one month left in office and would
>> never have to face the electorate again.
>>
>> http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=4235
>>
>
> Tell us how ingesting hot gasses into your lungs is harmless
I don't think it is, but it certainly isn't much harm to
others.....unlike the War on Drugs.
--
Sleep well tonight,
RD (The Sandman)
Let's see if I have this healthcare thingy right. Congress is to pass
a plan written by a committee whose head has said he doesn't understand
it, passed by a Congress that hasn't read it, signed by a president who
hasn't read it, with funding administered by a Treasury chief who didn't
pay his taxes because he didn't understand TurboTax, overseen by an obese
Surgeon General and financed by a country that's nearly broke.
What could possibly go wrong?
Gray Ghost
No, just that they are emotionally stunted and intellectually vacuous.
Though the obsession with other men's penises is disturbing.
Beam Me Up Scotty
Government will soon require you to report to the *GLORY HOLE* at the
nearest GAY bar
Gray Ghost wrote:
> "r wiley" <raw...@southslope.net> wrote in
> news:hd9dqm$sh8$1...@news.netins.net:
>
>> "Sid9" <si...@belsouth.net> wrote in message
>> news:hd5j7u$o0s$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>> Guns are for men with small dicks who have doubts about their manhood.
>>>
>> Another testament that all the gun grabbers are cock queens. If you
>> don't think my penis is big enough, that's your problem, not mine.
>>
>> rw
>>
>>
>>
>
> No, just that they are emotionally stunted and intellectually vacuous.
>
> Though the obsession with other men's penises is disturbing.
>
Soon enough socialist Gays will tell you that it's not other men's
penises, they belong to the collective and that means they are all mens
penises as is food and money and other items men falsely claim to own as
personal property, and that their penises availability must be
redistributed.
Government will soon require you to report to the *GLORY HOLE* at the
nearest GAY bar for your compulsory volunteer service.
Beam Me Up Scotty
Government will soon require you to report to the *GLORY HOLE* at the
nearest GAY bar
Gray Ghost wrote:
> "r wiley" <raw...@southslope.net> wrote in
> news:hd9dqm$sh8$1...@news.netins.net:
>
>> "Sid9" <si...@belsouth.net> wrote in message
>> news:hd5j7u$o0s$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>> Guns are for men with small dicks who have doubts about their manhood.
>>>
>> Another testament that all the gun grabbers are cock queens. If you
>> don't think my penis is big enough, that's your problem, not mine.
>>
>> rw
>>
>>
>>
>
> No, just that they are emotionally stunted and intellectually vacuous.
>
> Though the obsession with other men's penises is disturbing.
>
Soon enough socialist Gays will tell you that it's not other men's
penises, they belong to the collective and that means they are all mens
penises as is *health care* food and money and other items men falsely
Bert Hyman
<si...@belsouth.net> wrote:
> Guns are for men with small dicks
You've been out there checking, have you?
How's that working out for you?
--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN be...@iphouse.com
Gray Ghost
news:4AF869C8...@Talk-n-dog.com:
To which I say "WOLVERINES!"
nraclaptrap
news:hd9fvc$nuc$2...@news.eternal-september.org:
That's right, Brian "Bama Brian" of Mobile, Alabama. Just like DC. You
may recall how DC's ban on carrying unlicensed handguns out of your house
was upheld recently by a DC appeals court?
That's just the beginning of a return to sanity in gun regulation. And
the implosion of the GOP, we'll have our guns and piss on you too.
--
NRACLAPTRAP
r wiley
"tankfixer" <paul.c...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:MPG.2560d13...@news.bytemine.net...
> In article <hd5muv$aru$1...@news.netins.net>, raw...@southslope.net
> says...
>>
>> "tankfixer" <paul.c...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:MPG.255fdb0...@news.bytemine.net...
>> > In article <hd57um$f5g$4...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>> > CurlySu...@live.com says...
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 14:28:22 -0800, tankfixer <paul.c...@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > pot is for dopes
>> >>
>> >> Tell me that when you have chemotherapy, arthritis or glaucoma...
>> >
>> > YOu another of those "medicinal" growers ?
>> > Like the ones caught in southern oregon with a couple hundred pounds ?
>>
>> Marijuana, like most controlled substances, is a lot less hazardous than
>> Richard Nixon's "War on Drugs"
>>
>> Although Nixon created the "War on Drugs", every president since has kept
>> the statutes in place and prosecuted them vigorously. Bill Clinton finally
>> acknowledged that marijuana should be decriminalized in December 2000,
>> when he had one month left in office and would never have to face the
>> electorate again.
>>
>> http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=4235
>>
>
> Tell us how ingesting hot gasses into your lungs is harmless
Clumsy strawman. I didn't say harmless, I said less hazardous than Nixon's
"War On Drugs"
rw
nraclaptrap
news:4af83af7$0$4976$607e...@cv.net:
>>>200 years ago, long before England got into the gun prohibition
>>>business, the homicide rate in New York was 5 times that of London.
>>
>>
>> What's your source for that statistic? And how many ordinary English
>> civilians owned guns 200 years ago, Aint Wiley?
>
> Most of them.
Prove it, Pinhead - or shut your intake manifold.
--
NRACLAPTRAP
nraclaptrap
>> An American is about 3 times as likely to be a homicide victim as a
>> Brit. 200 years ago, long before England got into the gun prohibition
>> business, the homicide rate in New York was 5 times that of London.
>> The male homicide rate in Scotland is twice that of England although
>> both have the same restrictions on gun possession.
>
> For the sake of comparison, here are some stats I've compiled.
Not England, not 200 years ago you fucking nitwit.
Dismissed until you prove you're awake.
--
NRACLAPTRAP
r wiley
"nraclaptrap" <nracl...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:Xns9CBE61D1CEF82p...@216.196.97.131...
http://gunowners.org/op0817.htm
rw
Strabo
*Fear* is the operative term. Liberals are afraid of most everything
not the least of which is life itself.
Fear of life, death, religion, arguments and confrontation, judgment,
contact sports, anything with an edge, riding animals, driving, anything
which explodes, riding a bicycle and taxidermy are among thousands of
other activities and objects which churns the emotions of a Liberal.
And so, self-inflicted zero tolerance rules the lives of these morose
pitiful creatures.
If Liberals can't outlaw, prohibit, forbid or tax it, they require
wearing a helmet.
Next week I'll have a few words about Conservatives, the Liberal
counterpart.
My hype for the day.
Strabo
Or Chicago or Detroit. Liberals believe they have reasonable gun control
laws.
>>
>> Universal background checks on all gun transactions as well as
>> licensing and registration of all guns would put an end to that. It
>> would make the criminals much easier to catch.
>
> Like the District of Columbia?
>
Or Chicago or Detroit. Liberals believe they have reasonable gun control
laws.
Beam Me Up Scotty
Gray Ghost
I'm not saying. 8)
tankfixer
Sandman)" says...
A good point.
However we have an incessant war on smoking, tobacco, yet some want to
enshrine smoking what is just another dried leaf as somehow a sacred
right.
I maintain that if smoking tobacco is bad then ALL smoking is bad.
tankfixer
The war on drugs is harmless, if you are bright enough not to be a drug
smuggler/dealer
Sid9
"Bama Brian" <claypo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hd9fvc$nuc$2...@news.eternal-september.org...
.
.
Where the guns come from VA, NC, SC, GA, etc....NOT D.C.
Sid9
.
All smoking is bad....
The products of combustion are carcinogens.....whether tobacco, pot,
or burning houses.
Curly Surmudgeon
wrote:
> I maintain that if smoking tobacco is bad then ALL smoking is bad.
Never had a class in logic have you?
--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2012 Run, Sarah, Run! 2012
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Curly Surmudgeon
wrote:
> The war on drugs is harmless, if you are bright enough not to be a drug
> smuggler/dealer
Another example of red neck logic.
Scout
I accept your admission that your plan won't work in DC.
So what makes you think it will work in these other places?
Sid9
.
The "War on Drugs" is not harmless....the stray bullets from turf
shootouts kill many innocents.
End the "War"
Regulate the shit like tobacco and alcohol
Tax the shit out of the shit...use part of the money for rehabbing the
suckers who are users.
This effectively puts the bad guys out of business.
The shit is intrinsically cheap.
It's only expensive because it's illegal.
Curly Surmudgeon
Not a fair comparison, you include no basis for comparison. Yes, smoking
is bad. So is oxygen. Both have positive qualities, which depending on
the circumstances, outweigh the negatives.
Go breathe pure oxygen for a while and tell me that it's good for you.
On the other hand smoking pot has important medicinal uses which outweigh
the negative ramifications at times and under certain circumstances.
Blanket statements are invariably wrong.
Sid9
"Curly Surmudgeon" <CurlySu...@live.com> wrote in message
news:hdaoat$9h1$6...@news.eternal-september.org...
I didn't say anything about the possible benefits of a component of
pot.
You want medicine?
Refine or distill out the active ingredient.
The smoke contains carcinogens.
Alim Nassor
> "tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:MPG.255fdac...@news.bytemine.net...
>
>
>
> > In article <hd4tj5$5b...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > s...@belsouth.net
> > says...
>
> >> "tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >>news:MPG.255f945...@news.bytemine.net...
> >> > In article <vqibf5hvr4kd8hnakbpv65sqs7rtbhu...@4ax.com>,
> >> > mrLook...@yahoo.com says...
>
> >> >> On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 09:20:17 -0800, tankfixer
> >> >> <paul.carr...@gmail.com>
> >> >> wrote:
>
> >> >> >In article <hd3b2e$8u...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> >> >> >killef...@invalid.invalid says...
>
> >> >> >> "tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> >> >>news:MPG.255ea2f...@news.bytemine.net...
> >> >> >> > In article <f468b350-f24b-4740-b837-55ae4be69c76
> >> >> >> > @s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com>, too_many_to...@yahoo.com
> >> >> >> > says...
> >> >> >> >> Wanna bet some new gun laws are coming?
>
> >> >> >> > people got
> >> >> >> > killed..
>
> >> >> >> We've heard enough of your kind, Grayson. Your the one that
> >> >> >> declared WAR
> >> >> >> and released your enemies list.
>
> >> >> >You obviously have me confused with someone else.
> >> >> >Put down the bong and clean your head some, that pot is
> >> >> >shriviling
> >> >> >your
> >> >> >brain..
>
> >> >> If you cleaned more bongs and less guns you might make some
> >> >> sense.
>
> >> > pot is for dopes
> >> .
> >> .
>
> >> Guns are for what?
>
> > Free persons..
>
> .
> .
> Nope.
>
> Guns are for men with small dicks who have doubts about their manhood.
>
>
> Real Americans are free without guns.
>
> Real Americans are free because of our democratically elected
> government.
>
> Real Americans are free because of our system of laws.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
What elected government and system of laws did Washington use to
defeat the British? Oh yeah wait, I think I remember him using guns.
Bama Brian
Maybe you ought to send your post to the fellow who actually made the
'England 200 years ago' claim, Jabba, you stupid fucking halfwit.
--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana
Bama Brian
That's one reason why I call it the "War on (Some) Drugs.
Gray Ghost
news:MPG.256274f...@news.bytemine.net:
Back in the day, cough, cough, ingestion through well prepared brownies
seemed to alleviate smoker's cough.
Of course if you make really good spaghetti sauce and don't let it cook long
enough to get the alcohol out of the 1/2 gallon of Rose you've added, it can
have a similar effect. Good times, good times.
Gray Ghost
september.org:
Indeed but oddly the source states for those guns have nowhere near the crime
that DC has. Why do you think that is?
I used to live in Northern Virginia, just outside of DC. Nowhere near the
violence of DC and what there was was almost all gang and/or illegal related.
tankfixer
We agree..
Somebody clue the pot head in please..
tankfixer
They will move on to some other contraband..
Like tobacco ;')
Gunner Asch
>>
>>That's right, Brian "Bama Brian" of Mobile, Alabama. Just like DC. You
>>may recall how DC's ban on carrying unlicensed handguns out of your house
>>was upheld recently by a DC appeals court?
>>
Too bad it violated the Supreme Court rulling.
Heller
Tsk tsk tsk.
And it will be overturned and DC will return to the world the
Constitution guarentees everyone.
Gunner
"IMHO, some people here give Jeff far more attention than he deserves,
but obviously craves. The most appropriate response, and perhaps the
cruelest, IMO, is to simply killfile and ignore him. An alternative, if
you must, would be to post the same standard reply to his every post,
listing the manifold reasons why he ought to be ignored. Just my $0.02
worth."
nraclaptrap
First, "allowing law-abiding people to 'have arms for their defence', as
the 1689 English Bill of Rights promised" is a lie by omission. Here's
what the EBoR actually says:
"That the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their
defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law."
So it's 300 years plus 20, it's just Protestants, and the subjects
mentioned could have arms in the military sense, for their defence
meaning the landed gentry and nobles and you should know that, because
the right granted must be "suitable to their conditions as allowed by
law."
Which all proves the right to have weapons no matter how rich you are is
granted by law, not gods, and it's the law that determines the limits of
that rights, not the NRfuckinA.
And you need to name and fully cite the "government study for 1890-1892"
or go fuck yourself.
Also, I have to killfile you for three weeks for wasting 3 minutes of my
time.
Plonk plonk plonk.
Point proven.
--
NRACLAPTRAP
nraclaptrap
@news.eternal-september.org:
> nraclaptrap wrote:
>> Bama Brian <claypo...@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:hd9k3h$vs$1...@news.eternal-september.org:
>>
>>
>>>> An American is about 3 times as likely to be a homicide victim as a
>>>> Brit. 200 years ago, long before England got into the gun
prohibition
>>>> business, the homicide rate in New York was 5 times that of London.
>>>> The male homicide rate in Scotland is twice that of England although
>>>> both have the same restrictions on gun possession.
>>> For the sake of comparison, here are some stats I've compiled.
>>
>> Not England, not 200 years ago you fucking nitwit.
>>
>> Dismissed until you prove you're awake.
>
> Maybe you ought to send your post to the fellow who actually made the
> 'England 200 years ago' claim, Jabba, you stupid fucking halfwit.
Neither you nor R'nt Too Wiley know what you're citing. Typical
teabaggers.
Next.
--
NRACLAPTRAP
Bama Brian
> Bama Brian <claypo...@gmail.com> wrote in news:hdaso5$brn$1
> @news.eternal-september.org:
>
>> nraclaptrap wrote:
>>> Bama Brian <claypo...@gmail.com> wrote in
>>> news:hd9k3h$vs$1...@news.eternal-september.org:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> An American is about 3 times as likely to be a homicide victim as a
>>>>> Brit. 200 years ago, long before England got into the gun
> prohibition
>>>>> business, the homicide rate in New York was 5 times that of London.
>>>>> The male homicide rate in Scotland is twice that of England although
>>>>> both have the same restrictions on gun possession.
>>>> For the sake of comparison, here are some stats I've compiled.
>>> Not England, not 200 years ago you fucking nitwit.
>>>
>>> Dismissed until you prove you're awake.
>> Maybe you ought to send your post to the fellow who actually made the
>> 'England 200 years ago' claim, Jabba, you stupid fucking halfwit.
>
> Neither you nor R'nt Too Wiley know what you're citing. Typical
> teabaggers.
BTW, Jabba, I'll be visiting near where you live right after
Thanksgiving. I'll honk when I come by, and wave at you with my special
waving finger.
Jeers,
nraclaptrap
@news.eternal-september.org:
>>>>>> An American is about 3 times as likely to be a homicide victim as
>>>>>> a Brit. 200 years ago, long before England got into the gun
>>>>>> prohibition business, the homicide rate in New York was 5 times
>>>>>> that of London. The male homicide rate in Scotland is twice that
>>>>>> of England although both have the same restrictions on gun
>>>>>> possession.
>>>>> For the sake of comparison, here are some stats I've compiled.
>>>> Not England, not 200 years ago you fucking nitwit.
>>>>
>>>> Dismissed until you prove you're awake.
>>> Maybe you ought to send your post to the fellow who actually made the
>>> 'England 200 years ago' claim, Jabba, you stupid fucking halfwit.
>>
>> Neither you nor R'nt Too Wiley know what you're citing. Typical
>> teabaggers.
>
> BTW, Jabba, I'll be visiting near where you live right after
> Thanksgiving. I'll honk when I come by, and wave at you with my
> special waving finger.
I'll leave a shotgun by the window for you, Brian "Teabagger" Claypool at
3858 Higgins Rd, Mobile, Alabama. I'll warn DPS that you're a habitual
drug & alcohol confuser - and you'll be exceeding the speed limit driving
an old rice burner...
"Just look for a poorly maintained Honda Civic and a hippie-looking guy
even more poorly maintained, with a dirty needle sticking out of his arm.
That's "Bagger Brian" and he aint no caddy..."
Laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh.
--
NRACLAPTRAP
Berry Oakley
Like YOU have a window that ever opened!
And stop pretending that you know where people live, lardo.
I have given my address, and you STILL don't know where I am!
Curly Surmudgeon
<nracl...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Bama Brian <claypo...@gmail.com> wrote in news:hdekuk$sfl$1
> @news.eternal-september.org:
>
>
>>>>>>> An American is about 3 times as likely to be a homicide victim as
>>>>>>> a Brit. 200 years ago, long before England got into the gun
>>>>>>> prohibition business, the homicide rate in New York was 5 times
>>>>>>> that of London. The male homicide rate in Scotland is twice that
>>>>>>> of England although both have the same restrictions on gun
>>>>>>> possession.
>
>>>>>> For the sake of comparison, here are some stats I've compiled.
>
>>>>> Not England, not 200 years ago you fucking nitwit.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dismissed until you prove you're awake.
>
>>>> Maybe you ought to send your post to the fellow who actually made the
>>>> 'England 200 years ago' claim, Jabba, you stupid fucking halfwit.
>>>
>>> Neither you nor R'nt Too Wiley know what you're citing. Typical
>>> teabaggers.
>>
>> BTW, Jabba, I'll be visiting near where you live right after
>> Thanksgiving. I'll honk when I come by, and wave at you with my
>> special waving finger.
>
> I'll leave a shotgun by the window for you, Brian "Teabagger" Claypool
> at 3858 Higgins Rd, Mobile, Alabama.
Alabama? That makes sense...
> I'll warn DPS that you're a
> habitual drug & alcohol confuser - and you'll be exceeding the speed
> limit driving an old rice burner...
>
> "Just look for a poorly maintained Honda Civic and a hippie-looking guy
> even more poorly maintained, with a dirty needle sticking out of his
> arm. That's "Bagger Brian" and he aint no caddy..."
>
> Laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh.
--
Curly Surmudgeon
wrote:
Is that why you use a new pseudonym?
nraclaptrap
news:4afb315f$0$22505$607e...@cv.net:
Of course it opens. You think I'm gonna pay for air conditioning?
> And stop pretending that you know where people live, lardo.
I have Google Earth. Did you know Brian's so cheap, he uses his
neighbor's shade tree to cool one corner of his rather barren plot of
dead grass? And his swimming pool is shaped like an iPod. All true. I
saw it.
> I have given my address, and you STILL don't know where I am!
Google Earth took me to your street but the numbers on your house must
have been changed. Surely you don't live in a dumpster, Pinhead.
But if you must live in a dumpster that 50 foot model is the way to go...
Bama Brian
Swimming pool? Sorry, Jabba. Even if I had one, which I don't, you're
not invited.
My 'barren' plot of land seems to have a rather large number of trees,
including one 70 foot hickory that's begun to lean over the road. If
you and Trevor are interested, I'll soon have an armory of hickory
"noggin whackers" which I'll keep ready just for the two of you.
BTW, try looking for me in one of the OTHER 49 states.
>
>> I have given my address, and you STILL don't know where I am!
>
> Google Earth took me to your street but the numbers on your house must
> have been changed. Surely you don't live in a dumpster, Pinhead.
>
> But if you must live in a dumpster that 50 foot model is the way to go...
You should know.
--
Cheers,
nraclaptrap
I lied, it's actually an open sewer. Shaped like an iPod.
> My 'barren' plot of land seems to have a rather large number of trees,
> including one 70 foot hickory that's begun to lean over the road. If
> you and Trevor are interested, I'll soon have an armory of hickory
> "noggin whackers" which I'll keep ready just for the two of you.
>
> BTW, try looking for me in one of the OTHER 49 states.
Your home address says Mobile, Alabama. And that tree isn't even yours,
it's your neighbor's tree and you're stealing his shade.
>>> I have given my address, and you STILL don't know where I am!
>>
>> Google Earth took me to your street but the numbers on your house
>> must have been changed. Surely you don't live in a dumpster,
>> Pinhead.
>>
>> But if you must live in a dumpster that 50 foot model is the way to
>> go...
>
> You should know.
Kennyboy's the one renting the 50 foot dumpster/bunker. I just have a
verdant yard and an old house and that's all I want.
--
NRACLAPTRAP