Hunting Mountain Lions
bill_savary
it safe for hikers in semi-urban areas, then it is doomed to failure.
California firearm and hunting regulations would make hunting in those
areas non-existent. Without allowing hunting of mountain lions, hikers
are already allowed to defend themselves against attack. If hikers
really feel threatened by mountain lions (or any other wild animals)
they should be pursuing the right to carry a gun rather than the right
to hunt lions in areas where no problems have been reported.
David Paul
>
>Bill Savary wrote:
>
>>If the purpose of the proposed hunting of mountain lions is to make
>>it safe for hikers in semi-urban areas, then it is doomed to failure.
>>California firearm and hunting regulations would make hunting in those
>>areas non-existent.
>
>urban areas frees range for the cougars that are forced to live near
>inhabited areas?
>
No. Here's why.
Lions follow the deer herds. There are large herds of deer in semi-urban
areas because:
1. They aren't/can't be hunted.
2. People feed them.
The cats in these areas are also the ones that cause problems because they
have lost their fear of humans and there are more people for them to
encounter (vicious circle type of thing).
A hunting season on mountain lions does not kill the cats that are causing
all of the problems (in urban areas) because hunting them is difficult.
For all of my "fans" please note that I have not stated whether I am for or
against hunting mountain lions. Please don't make assumptions.
Mike Lane
>If the purpose of the proposed hunting of mountain lions is to make
>it safe for hikers in semi-urban areas, then it is doomed to failure.
>California firearm and hunting regulations would make hunting in those
>areas non-existent.
Did you ever give thought to the fact that killing cougars away from
urban areas frees range for the cougars that are forced to live near
inhabited areas?
>Without allowing hunting of mountain lions, hikers
>are already allowed to defend themselves against attack. If hikers
>really feel threatened by mountain lions (or any other wild animals)
>they should be pursuing the right to carry a gun rather than the right
>to hunt lions in areas where no problems have been reported.
>
Since it illegal to cary a loaded firearm in all national and most
state parks except for use in legal hunting and target practice at
designated ranges this solution seems very unfeasable. Personally, I
would like to have the right to carry a firearm where ever and when
ever I felt it necessary. Unfortunately, not everyone can be counted
on to be responsible with firearms like I can.
Mike Lane
Pesky Wabbit
used to be afraid of people before the ban on hunting them. I would not
personally like to hunt cougars but if someone is willing to, go for it.
Rabbit
In article <4e3573$10...@news.ccit.arizona.edu>, Bill Savary wrote:
> If the purpose of the proposed hunting of mountain lions is to make
> it safe for hikers in semi-urban areas, then it is doomed to failure.
> California firearm and hunting regulations would make hunting in those
> areas non-existent. Without allowing hunting of mountain lions, hikers
Isaac Adams MURCHIE
> If the purpose of the proposed hunting of mountain lions is to make
> it safe for hikers in semi-urban areas, then it is doomed to failure.
> California firearm and hunting regulations would make hunting in those
> areas non-existent. Without allowing hunting of mountain lions, hikers
> are already allowed to defend themselves against attack. If hikers
> really feel threatened by mountain lions (or any other wild animals)
> they should be pursuing the right to carry a gun rather than the right
> to hunt lions in areas where no problems have been reported.
if hikers really feel threatened by mountain lions they ought to get
the heck out of the mountain lion's homes.
isaac.
--
*****************************************************************
* Isaac A. Murchie "When I see somebody coming to do me *
* is...@cs.mcgill.ca some good, I reach for my revolver" *
* -George Washington Hayduke *
*****************************************************************
David C
>
>If the purpose of the proposed hunting of mountain lions is to make
>it safe for hikers in semi-urban areas, then it is doomed to failure.
>California firearm and hunting regulations would make hunting in those
>areas non-existent. Without allowing hunting of mountain lions,
hikers
>are already allowed to defend themselves against attack. If hikers
>really feel threatened by mountain lions (or any other wild animals)
>they should be pursuing the right to carry a gun rather than the right
>to hunt lions in areas where no problems have been reported.
>
Dave
Cris Waller
(Pesky Wabbit) writes:
>
>The reason for the proposed law is to make the cats afraid of people.
They
>used to be afraid of people before the ban on hunting them. I would
not
>personally like to hunt cougars but if someone is willing to, go for
it.
>
treed, it dies. It probably doesn't even see the hunter until a few
moments before death-up until then it will see the dog pack that treed
it. Dead cats certainly can't pass on fear of humans!
And if hunting teaches cougars to fear people, why then do states that
hunt cougar have just as many problems as California?
Cris Waller
Cr...@ix.netcom.com
Jack Shollenberger
writes:
Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't it seem that maybe there is no
where for the cougars aka Mountain Lions to run anymore? Come on the
population is growing constantly especially in CA....so because certain
people want to be able to hike through the country...which is filled
with wildlife...they wish to kill the wildlife that scares them..and
yes occasionally attacks them..Come on..that would be like walking
through the jungle and once getting attacked by a tiger you then decide
to kill off the tigers...Sorry but I am against hunting of any kind..I
don't consider it a sport the cougar doesn't have a gun.
t01mtm
: In <wabbit-2401...@ana0020.deltanet.com> wab...@deltanet.com
: (Pesky Wabbit) writes:
: >
: >The reason for the proposed law is to make the cats afraid of people.
: They
: >used to be afraid of people before the ban on hunting them. I would
: not
: >personally like to hunt cougars but if someone is willing to, go for
: it.
: >
: How does hunting make mountain lions afraid of people? If the cat is
: treed, it dies. It probably doesn't even see the hunter until a few
: moments before death-up until then it will see the dog pack that treed
: it. Dead cats certainly can't pass on fear of humans!
Surely a case of natural selection, the lions that are a little more
timid have more chance of avoiding hunters and so more chance of passing
their genes on to the next generation. Also tend to make them more
cunning and improve their senses...*shrug* maybe.
: And if hunting teaches cougars to fear people, why then do states that
: hunt cougar have just as many problems as California?
Who knows...there could be many factors, natural selection could well
be insignificant or have unexpected results.
Anyone who knows anything about this stuff like to comment?
--
Q~Q | Michael McEwen : t01...@abdn.ac.uk ------------------------------------
| |
- | Apathy Error: Don't bother striking any key
V |
Carl J R Johansson
: David...@uchsc.edu (David Paul) wrote:
: >tl...@nettally.com Mike Lane says...
: >>Did you ever give thought to the fact that killing cougars away from
: >>urban areas frees range for the cougars that are forced to live near
: >>inhabited areas?
: >>
: >No. Here's why.
: >
: >Lions follow the deer herds. There are large herds of deer in semi-urban
: >areas because:
: >
: >1. They aren't/can't be hunted.
: >2. People feed them.
: >
: Which type of deer are you talking about? White tails don't move in
: herds. Mulies prefer wooded mountain sides. Larger members of the
: deer family, elk, etc., that do migrate and travel in herds and are in
: body size just a bit big to be regular mountain lion food or to slip
: comfortably into and out of urban areas, although in mountainous
: regions near reserves they do come into town and generally are a big
: pain in the butt.
Although I don't know anything about the deer situation in California my
scientific journal has a coverage of a recent study in Alberta where it
was found that pumas/cougars/mountain lions *especially* prefer large
prey like elks, often injuring themselves when attacking animals that
can be eight times their own size. They only hunt smaller prey when they
are starving.
I agree with that animals this big are unlikely to walk freely around in
urban areas, but as mentioned I don't know about it.
cj
: A better explanation is that the mountain lion has a very specific
: range. Being a solitary animal, unless it is time to mate, it is very
: jealous and protective of its range land. Intruding lions are
: promptly and rudely asked to leave. As the population of lions grows,
: the available rangeland away from human habitation shrinks. Young
: lions are forced to share range with humans and their domestic
: animals.
: >The cats in these areas are also the ones that cause problems because they
: >have lost their fear of humans and there are more people for them to
: >encounter (vicious circle type of thing).
: >
: >A hunting season on mountain lions does not kill the cats that are causing
: >all of the problems (in urban areas) because hunting them is difficult.
: >
: >For all of my "fans" please note that I have not stated whether I am for or
: >against hunting mountain lions. Please don't make assumptions.
: >
: Reducing the population of mountain lions away from urban areas and
: heavily used recreation land free area that pressured lions can be
: captured and relocated to. Any lion that refuses to leave populated
: areas, preferring trash cans, pets and small children to deer meat,
: can be captured and/or destroyed by animal control officers without
: the need for urban hunting.
: P.S. I would no go cougar hunting, treeing an animal and shooting it
: just does not seem very sporting to me. Very efficient for population
: control though.
: Mike Lane
Solitary Bird
> if hikers really feel threatened by mountain lions they ought to get
> the heck out of the mountain lion's homes.
> isaac.
Kind of like we are doing in reaction to the predators of the inner
city huh?
bird
Ben
> : How does hunting make mountain lions afraid of people? If the cat is
> : treed, it dies. It probably doesn't even see the hunter until a few
> : moments before death-up until then it will see the dog pack that treed
> : it. Dead cats certainly can't pass on fear of humans!
>
> Surely a case of natural selection, the lions that are a little more
> timid have more chance of avoiding hunters and so more chance of passing
> their genes on to the next generation. Also tend to make them more
> cunning and improve their senses...*shrug* maybe.
>
> : And if hunting teaches cougars to fear people, why then do states that
> : hunt cougar have just as many problems as California?
>
> Who knows...there could be many factors, natural selection could well
> be insignificant or have unexpected results.
>
> Anyone who knows anything about this stuff like to comment?
>
natural selection would probably take quite a long time to result in that
kind of thing. I would think only after many, many, many generations.
NICOLA
A. Hopkins ) writes:
>
> (...) Aversion training can work well, for instance with coyotes
> researches have laced sheep carcasses with substances that make the
> coyote ill. Eat sheep get sick. this type of aversion can work.
>
Interesting. But wouldn't the coyotes associate the sickness with
eating dead carcasses? What kind of sickness do they get? Can the same
method be applied to cougars (with a human corpse) or they eat only
something they kill?
MSNicola
JFRCHRDSN
:treed, it dies. It probably doesn't even see the hunter until a few
:moments before death-up until then it will see the dog pack that treed
:it. Dead cats certainly can't pass on fear of humans!
This is why some of us feel that initiatives like that in Oregon banning
the treeing of bears, but not the shooting of bears, has it backwards. It
would be better to allow dog packs to tree bear and cougars while
outlawing the shooting of such sitting ducks, than to make the hunts more
humane by banning pack hunting.
JohnR
Pesky Wabbit
cat 100% of the time. When the cat is chased after, shot at, and then gets
away, it will learn. The cats will learn the same way that deer learn. In
protected areas deer have walked right through my camp. Never have I had a
buck walk through my camp during deer season in a non-protected area. The
cats will learn just as any other hunted animal does.
Rabbit
In article <4e79n6$5...@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, cr...@ix.netcom.com(Cris
Waller ) wrote:
> How does hunting make mountain lions afraid of people? If the cat is
> treed, it dies. It probably doesn't even see the hunter until a few
> moments before death-up until then it will see the dog pack that treed
> it. Dead cats certainly can't pass on fear of humans!
> And if hunting teaches cougars to fear people, why then do states that
> hunt cougar have just as many problems as California?
>
> Cris Waller
> Cr...@ix.netcom.com
Keith McLeod
: The reason for the proposed law is to make the cats afraid of people. They
: used to be afraid of people before the ban on hunting them. I would not
: personally like to hunt cougars but if someone is willing to, go for it.
: Rabbit
How will the ones who don`t end up sitting in a tree waiting for the dogs
to go away find out about it? I haven`t noticed a news group oc.haz.puma.
Iv`e said it before and I`ll say it again, People who kill cougars are
cowards because they face absolutely no risk.
Keith
v.pagan
>Reducing the population of mountain lions away from urban areas and
>heavily used recreation land free area that pressured lions can be
>captured and relocated to. Any lion that refuses to leave populated
>areas, preferring trash cans, pets and small children to deer meat,
>can be captured and/or destroyed by animal control officers without
>the need for urban hunting.
>P.S. I would no go cougar hunting, treeing an animal and shooting it
>just does not seem very sporting to me. Very efficient for population
>control though.
Seems to me that the only critter whose population needs to be reduced
is homo sapiens.
We are the ones taking territory away from the cats.
Here in California, dimwits who move to what was until recently
was wild get hysterical when a cougar is sighted.
They remind me of certain yuppie wannabes who bought up some
condos in a renovated Victorian mansion here in SAn FRancisco--
right accross the street from some projects . . .they would constantly
be calling the SFPD complaining about the noise, crime, etc--an
aquaintance of mine in the department would ask them what they
expected--why did they think the condos were so cheap in the first
place?
I never heard opf a cougar who littered, or dumped toxic waste in the
ocean.
So which species should be shot on sight, anyway?
Look, we have trahed almost all of the planet's surface--why not let the
wild ones have the little bits of wilderness that are left?
eaf
@@
Thanks!!
In article <4e8na8$d...@oravannahka.Helsinki.FI>, cjjo...@cc.Helsinki.FI says...
>: Reducing the population of mountain lions away from urban areas and
>: heavily used recreation land free area that pressured lions can be
>: captured and relocated to. Any lion that refuses to leave populated
>: areas, preferring trash cans, pets and small children to deer meat,
>: can be captured and/or destroyed by animal control officers without
>: the need for urban hunting.
>
>
>: P.S. I would no go cougar hunting, treeing an animal and shooting it
>: just does not seem very sporting to me. Very efficient for population
>: control though.
>
>: Mike Lane
>
Mike Lane
>tl...@nettally.com Mike Lane says...
>>Did you ever give thought to the fact that killing cougars away from
>>urban areas frees range for the cougars that are forced to live near
>>inhabited areas?
>>
>No. Here's why.
>
>Lions follow the deer herds. There are large herds of deer in semi-urban
>areas because:
>
>1. They aren't/can't be hunted.
>2. People feed them.
>
Which type of deer are you talking about? White tails don't move in
herds. Mulies prefer wooded mountain sides. Larger members of the
deer family, elk, etc., that do migrate and travel in herds and are in
body size just a bit big to be regular mountain lion food or to slip
comfortably into and out of urban areas, although in mountainous
regions near reserves they do come into town and generally are a big
pain in the butt.
A better explanation is that the mountain lion has a very specific
Tom Greene
: A better explanation is that the mountain lion has a very specific
: range. Being a solitary animal, unless it is time to mate, it is very
: jealous and protective of its range land. Intruding lions are
: promptly and rudely asked to leave. As the population of lions grows,
: the available rangeland away from human habitation shrinks. Young
: lions are forced to share range with humans and their domestic
: animals.
: Reducing the population of mountain lions away from urban areas and
: heavily used recreation land free area that pressured lions can be
: captured and relocated to. Any lion that refuses to leave populated
: areas, preferring trash cans, pets and small children to deer meat,
: can be captured and/or destroyed by animal control officers without
: the need for urban hunting.
Urban sprawl is also reducing the available rangeland away from human
habitation. The problem is largely of our own making. If you build
a subdivision in what was formerly mountain lion territory, then there is
going to be an increased chance of human/mountain lion interaction.
Rather than killing or destroying things that are inconvient, why don't
we take a more positive approach and reduce urban sprawl?
Answer: It wouldn't work. People's need to have a big house in a golf
course or mountain estates community out weighs the need to save the
environment most of the time.
How about a hunting season of suburbanites? :-)
-Tom
Pesky Wabbit
(Jack Shollenberger ) wrote:
> Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't it seem that maybe there is no
> where for the cougars aka Mountain Lions to run anymore? Come on the
> population is growing constantly especially in CA....so because certain
> people want to be able to hike through the country
*** The cats are coming into the suburbs to snack on kids and pets. When
people hike in the wild they are taking a risk of being attacked by any of
the animals. The law is not about killing the cats because they kill while
in the wild. It is about the over population of the cats which drives them
into the areas in which humans live.
>Sorry but I am against hunting of any kind..
*** Well I have a different opinion on hunting. My family has hunted for
years and years to survive (we are Native Americans). We have a tradition
of hunting animals. We place animals and plants on the same level. If we
were not permitted to kill animals or plants for food where would all of
us be today. We owe alot to the hunters and gatherers. Many people do not
like to deal with the killing of animals or plants. That is why we have
grocery stores.
I
> don't consider it a sport the cougar doesn't have a gun.
*** And a hunter does not have sharp teeth or claws.
Rabbit
Rick A. Hopkins
They
>used to be afraid of people before the ban on hunting them. I would
not
>personally like to hunt cougars but if someone is willing to, go for
it.
>
>Rabbit
>
>
problems with the logic. Cougar hunting would not (and presently does
not in any state where hunting occurs - see Vancover Island which has
one of the highest harvest rates and twice the number of attacks as
California and it has only 300,000 people on it!) make cougars afraid,
because when a cougar is run up a tree and shot, it can not pass on
this fear to its conspecifics. In addition, an extremely small portion
of any states cougar population (where hunting occurs) every comes in
contact with hunters with dogs. Another problem in a behavioral sense
is that an animal has to be able to attribute the aversion (in this
case hunting) with a behavior you wish to alter. That simply is not
happening. Aversion training can work well, for instance with coyotes
researches have laced sheep carcasses with substances that make the
coyote ill. Eat sheep get sick. this type of aversion can work.
Rick A. Hopkins
John McCarthy
are missed are frightened.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/
v.pagan
>The reason for the proposed law is to make the cats afraid of people. They
>used to be afraid of people before the ban on hunting them. I would not
>personally like to hunt cougars but if someone is willing to, go for it.
Umm . . .let me see if I got this straight . . . so then are cougars more law-abiding than we are? Heck, I didn't know cougars paid=
that much attention to the law as you seem to think--so if they are afraid of humans ONLY when they know two-leggers can't kill the=
m legally, why not pass a law that makes it ILLEGAL for cougars to kill two-leggers? (Now, I realize that WE seem unable to follow o=
ur own laws, but maybe cougars are smarter.) Hmm. Interesting concept. Maybe if we passed a law making the hunting of rapists, mu=
ggers, and burglars legal, THEY would be too afraid to come out of hiding . . . it's worth a try, though.;-)
eaf
somebody call Janet Reno!
v.pagan
>don't consider it a sport the cougar doesn't have a gun.
Bravo!
When I was a little girl, I read a book about Lafcadio the Lion, written
(I think) by Shel Silverstein. It was about a lion who learned to shoot
and got all his lion friends hunter-skin rugs. He was discovered by a
Parisian impressario who made him a trick-shooting star in Paris; there
was something about a marshmallow suit . . .
eaf
Mike Lane
>if hikers really feel threatened by mountain lions they ought to get
>the heck out of the mountain lion's homes.
>
>isaac.
Funny, since I was born on this planet, I thought it was my home too.
Do me a favor, stay out of my house as well.
Mike Lane
Rick A. Hopkins
(-T.) writes:
>
>
>That arguement only holds true if one assumes that every cat that is
chased is
>ultimately treed and killed. Such is not the case.
Actually: a very high percentage of cats that are treed are killed.
The low success rate comes from not treeing the cat at all. Again,
even counting these cougars that elude the hunters, very few cats ever
come into contact with man and dogs. In addition, most of these occur
in areas (more wild) than where the problems occur. Most of the
attacks in North America occur in parks where hunting will not and does
not take place. I have conducted lion research in the Diable Range
above San Jose. I radio-collared 30 cats more than 40 times. In more
than one case we treed a radio-collared cat within a couple of hundred
yards from where they had previously been treed (time varied from 3
months to two years from captures). I never detected any changes in
these cats reaction to me or anyone else in the area. This
"population" was chased more than any group of cougars would be chased
during a hunting season. Again I think we are seeking overly
simplistic answers to this problem. Keep in mind, cougars in
California are not acting any different (not in any measurble way)than
cougars in most other states in the west where hunting occurs. While a
regulated hunting season will not have a substantial effect on cougars,
it also will not lessen any interactions with humans either (it has not
worked anywhere else so why do you think it will work here). A program
which removes the offending animal is certainly much more effective
than a sport hunt. California Department of Fish and Game estimates
you would have to have a harvest rate of 25-50% to have any effect.
Vancouver Island has one of the highest harvest rates at around 10%.
Rick
Mike Humphrys
>In <4e3573$10...@news.ccit.arizona.edu> Bill Savary writes:
>>
>>If the purpose of the proposed hunting of mountain lions is to make
>>it safe for hikers in semi-urban areas, then it is doomed to failure.
Sounds like the old adage: If it moves, Pave it over!
In all my years traipsng around the bush, I have NEVER seen ANY feral
cat. My mwife has seen one ONCE (from about 2 miles away). We have had
numerous runins with deer, coyotes, marmots, mosquitos (the Provincial
bird of Manitoba :->) and bear (had to shoot one 2 yrs ago - life or
death - 1st one in 35 yrs, and hopefully the last!!). We tend to keep
a low profile, and try to not impact any more than we have to. After
all, we are in THEIR backyard.
Mike
Nasir Hamdani
>> Surely a case of natural selection, the lions that are a little more
>> timid have more chance of avoiding hunters and so more chance of
passing
>> their genes on to the next generation. Also tend to make them more
>> cunning and improve their senses...*shrug* maybe.
>>
that>> : hunt cougar have just as many problems as California?
well>> be insignificant or have unexpected results.
>> Anyone who knows anything about this stuff like to comment?
Because cougars are not hunted based on their personalities it would do
little to effect their natural behavior. Since dogs are used to hunt
cougars usually they are put on a fresh trail and this could be any
cougar. Inevitably many cougars escape, these do not fear people any
more than before but they would (reasonable guess) fear/hate dogs.
As far as states having trouble who are hunting cougars this could have
many parts. I believe the most stated example is Victoria Is. This is
a realtively small population. It is possible that population has
different behavioral characteristics.
Another possiblity is that cougars who are under constant hunting
pressure become more irritable. This seems reasonable.
I don't know much about cougars outside of CA. I would be curious to
know if other hunting states have problems similar to Victoria Is.
My conclusion is that hunting cougars on a limited basis does not cause
them to fear us any more than they already do. My reason is simply
that once the cougar associates the hunt with us is usually right
before it is shot. I do believe that it causes them to fear dogs.
- Jas
Nasir Hamdani
writes:
> Interesting. But wouldn't the coyotes associate the sickness
with
> eating dead carcasses? What kind of sickness do they get? Can the
same
> method be applied to cougars (with a human corpse) or they eat
only
> something they kill?
> MSNicola
Nicola I think this crosses over what most people would consider
reasonable.
- Jas
Paul W. Smith
substituted it with his own form of selection, often with no particular
rhyme or reason.. Paul
Rick A. Hopkins
babcock) writes:
>So "certain people?" want to hike.... No one is suggesting to kill off
>the cougars.. More are being killed now than before the hunting ban
>[which by the way was inacted by the very sportsmen you condem] ---
Prop
>197 does not impliment hunting as a control method!
>
>Cougars are eating a lot of dogs and cats of people that live in the
foot
>hills AND even on the fringes of major Bay Area urban areas.
>
>Cougars are pushed out of the more rural areas because of over
population
>--- and the only impact hunting would cause would be to force the
urban
>cougars back into the rural areas --- provided hunters would cooperate
>and drive the urban cougars into the rural areas that hunting might
free
>up for the urban ones!!
>
>If we continue to allow unlimited human population expansion ---
liberal
>immigration policies etc... one can expect nothing but conflict in the
>future!!!! Think about it..... if we can make our urban parks
"safer"
>and let the cougars roam the more rural areas wouldn't that be better
>than just saying they are super protected and let those with the guns
do
>what ever they want because popular [non-urban] oppinion is that the
>armchair city dwellers are controlling rural policy??? Thimk about
it!
Ron: One major problem with your suggestion. Hunting would never take
place in the rural/urban interface. Boulder Colorado has more lion
problems then any Bay Area city and hunting occurs not in the
residential areas above Boulder, but mostly in more natural areas.
Hunting guides want to offer hunters an almost 100% hunt. This
requires going to a large area with good access. Almost never around
towns or cities.
Rick.
v.pagan
>Who knows...there could be many factors, natural selection could well
>be insignificant or have unexpected results.
>
I live in California.
The problem is that people are moving into lion territory.
The lions are just being themselves. People have to understand
that if they want to live in the boonies, they must learn to appreciate
the reality of the wild, and not act like fools. Apparently many can't
quite figure it out. Sort of like dimwit tourists who walk through
the projects with their cameras and pockets full of traveler's checks.
Stupidity can have fatal sequelae, in the wilds and in the cities.
Quite a state, California.
The state flag has a grizzly bear on it--
but they killed off all of 'em years ago.
Kinda says it all.
eaf
v.pagan
>>really feel threatened by mountain lions (or any other wild animals)
>>they should be pursuing the right to carry a gun rather than the right
>>to hunt lions in areas where no problems have been reported.
>>
>Right On!
>
>Dave
Or maybe the feebs should find another place to hike,
if they are so afraid of cougars.
Someplace with no danger--like maybe Disneyland.
But then they'd probably trip over a curb or something.
eaf
Steve and Christy Ross
>eaf
Yea, but you can sue Disney. It is hard to sue a lion. Maybe we
could pass a law allowing lion lawsuits for wrongful death--or bettter
yet, allow hunting of Mickey, Goofy and the gang.
Steve
Steve and Christy Ross
>In article <4e7lfe$b...@ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, jsho...@ix.netcom.com
>(Jack Shollenberger ) wrote:
>*** The cats are coming into the suburbs to snack on kids and pets. When
>people hike in the wild they are taking a risk of being attacked by any of
>the animals. The law is not about killing the cats because they kill while
>in the wild. It is about the over population of the cats which drives them
>into the areas in which humans live.
The cats aren't coming to the suburbs; The suburbs are coming to the
cats.
>>Sorry but I am against hunting of any kind..
>*** Well I have a different opinion on hunting. My family has hunted for
>years and years to survive (we are Native Americans). We have a tradition
>of hunting animals. We place animals and plants on the same level. If we
>were not permitted to kill animals or plants for food where would all of
>us be today. We owe alot to the hunters and gatherers. Many people do not
>like to deal with the killing of animals or plants. That is why we have
>grocery stores.
>I
>> don't consider it a sport the cougar doesn't have a gun.
>*** And a hunter does not have sharp teeth or claws.
>Rabbit
Drop the gun, glue on some Sally Hansen nails and some Halloween
Dracula teeth, and it will be an even fight! Sound silly? So does
justifying hunting a predator for "food". What does Mountain Lion
taste like? Did your ancestors hunt the lion for food?
Steve Ross
Mike Lane
>natural selection would probably take quite a long time to result in that
>kind of thing. I would think only after many, many, many generations.
It did not take too long for the wild turkeys in the Eastern U.S. to
natural select extra sharp senses, color vision and an uncanny sense
for human presence that makes them a very sporting prey.
Mike Lane
@@
Thanks!
In article <4e9j8h$c...@oracle.damerica.net>, rbab...@community.net says...
>
>Jack Shollenberger (jsho...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>
>: Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't it seem that maybe there is no
>: where for the cougars aka Mountain Lions to run anymore? Come on the
>: population is growing constantly especially in CA....so because certain
>: people want to be able to hike through the country...which is filled
>: with wildlife...they wish to kill the wildlife that scares them..and
>: yes occasionally attacks them..Come on..that would be like walking
>: through the jungle and once getting attacked by a tiger you then decide
>: to kill off the tigers...Sorry but I am against hunting of any kind..I
>: don't consider it a sport the cougar doesn't have a gun.
@@
Thanks!
In article <4e9i8q$l...@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, sro...@ix.netcom.com says...
>
>wab...@deltanet.com (Pesky Wabbit) wrote:
>
>>In article <4e7lfe$b...@ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, jsho...@ix.netcom.com
>>(Jack Shollenberger ) wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>*** The cats are coming into the suburbs to snack on kids and pets. When
>>people hike in the wild they are taking a risk of being attacked by any of
>>the animals. The law is not about killing the cats because they kill while
>>in the wild. It is about the over population of the cats which drives them
>>into the areas in which humans live.
>
>The cats aren't coming to the suburbs; The suburbs are coming to the
>cats.
>>>Sorry but I am against hunting of any kind..
>
>>*** Well I have a different opinion on hunting. My family has hunted for
>>years and years to survive (we are Native Americans). We have a tradition
>>of hunting animals. We place animals and plants on the same level. If we
>>were not permitted to kill animals or plants for food where would all of
>>us be today. We owe alot to the hunters and gatherers. Many people do not
>>like to deal with the killing of animals or plants. That is why we have
>>grocery stores.
>
>>I
>>> don't consider it a sport the cougar doesn't have a gun.
>
ron babcock
Rick A. Hopkins
Keep in mind that only a tiny fraction of cougars would ever be missed.
this would have no measureable effect. I think we have to rethink the
thesis of lost fear. 99.9% of all cougars do not respond negatively to
humans. so have they lost fear or have we increased the human/cougar
contact. In California alone we have 700 to 800 visitor days a year
into natural to semi-natural areas. If we truely had a handle on the
attack rate over the last 200 years, its possible that the rate of
attacks have decreased. then we would have to conclude that they have
increased their fear toward man (I also think this is an equally bogus
hypothesis). Attacks are rare events and extremely difficult to place
them in any meaningful context. Another problem with the hunting -
fear thread is that hunting increases the number of transients in the
population, and there a disportionate number of cougars that have been
involved in attacks are young cougars. In other words, it is a rather
complex situation which defies simplistic solutions.
Rick
James Battista
: Since it illegal to cary a loaded firearm in all national and most
: state parks except for use in legal hunting and target practice at
: designated ranges this solution seems very unfeasable. Personally, I
: would like to have the right to carry a firearm where ever and when
: ever I felt it necessary. Unfortunately, not everyone can be counted
: on to be responsible with firearms like I can.
: Mike Lane
Are you sure about this? I seem to remember that the NPS actually recommends
bringing firearms into some of the more remote Alaskan parks in case of
large angry bears.
Jim Battista
jim...@mail.duke.edu
Rick A. Hopkins
hopk...@ix.netcom.com(Rick
>A. Hopkins ) writes:
>>
>> (...) Aversion training can work well, for instance with coyotes
>> researches have laced sheep carcasses with substances that make the
>> coyote ill. Eat sheep get sick. this type of aversion can work.
>>
with
> eating dead carcasses? What kind of sickness do they get? Can the
same
> method be applied to cougars (with a human corpse) or they eat
only
> something they kill?
> MSNicola
As best we can tell cougars rarely scavenge. In addition, when cougars
attack humans, it may not always be related to foraging. It could be
defensive action, etc. Keep in mind only a tiny fraction of cougars
every attack humans. So the "loss of fear of humans" argument has
numerous logical problems. Coyotes and sheep frequently run a "fowl"
(no pun intended)so coyotes probably make a reasonable connection of
sheep (even if its dead) and sick. There have been less than 70
attacks (documented) in the last 200 years in North America (pretty big
place). Also what do we mean that cougars have lost fear of man. Did
they ever have it. California in 1950 in had less than 12 million
people, today we have close to 35 million people. We had substantially
more habitat in 1950 than today (if you have ever been to Orange County
in southern California you would clearly see this). Paul Beier
conducted research in Orange county in the late 1980's and early 1990's
and had significant portions of the home ranges of some of his
radio-collared animals disappear. I think we have not clearly defined
what we mean. Just a few thoughts.
Rick
v.pagan
>Cougars are eating a lot of dogs and cats of people that live in the foot
>hills AND even on the fringes of major Bay Area urban areas.
Bullshit. I live in San Francisco. Cite your source for that or retract.
eaf
v.pagan
>Yea, but you can sue Disney. It is hard to sue a lion. Maybe we
>could pass a law allowing lion lawsuits for wrongful death--or bettter
>yet, allow hunting of Mickey, Goofy and the gang.
Hmm. Suing mountain lions . . .interesting idea. You might
have a toght time collectiong damages . . .
Great idea about hunting Mickey et al--sure would add a most
interesting dimension to Disneyland . . .
eaf
NICOLA
writes:
>
> Many times hunters tree several mouintain lions before they get the "right
> one". Sometimes this is because it is not large enough, and sometimes it's
> just because they want to keep hunting. The ones they let go are certainly
> going to be more afraid next time.
>
So why they don't leave the animnal in peace after they tree it? They
won't eat the cougar, they've already got the satisfaction of "victory"
over the cat, what else can be gained with a stupid gun shot?
>
> I'm a hunter, but I've never hunted mountain lions, and don't know if I ever
> will. This is a low-participation activity, and I don't see how hunting can
> do any harm to the population in general.
>
Murder also does not affect the human population, so that makes it OK?
Marcello Santo Nicola
D0 Collaboration - Fermilab
LAFEX/CBPF
TBistrovic
taste like? Did your ancestors hunt the lion for food?
The answer is Pretty good! At least according to Louis L'amour (the well
known western writer). He has written that couger is the best tasting of
all wild meats. Most of his novels are based on historical fact, so I
would believe what he says is true. Our ancestors usually took advantage
of any food source that was available.
"Always respect old folks, old dogs and old whiskey"
Terry
@@
rec.pets.cats?
Thanks!
In article <Stinson.11...@wpo.sosc.osshe.edu>, Sti...@wpo.sosc.osshe.edu says...
>
>In article <4e9i8q$l...@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> sro...@ix.netcom.com (Steve and Christy Ross) writes:
>>From: sro...@ix.netcom.com (Steve and Christy Ross)
>>Subject: Re: Hunting Mountain Lions
>>Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 07:34:42 GMT
>
>
>> What does Mountain Lion taste like? Did your ancestors hunt the lion for
>food?
>
>>Steve Ross
>
>Cougar tastes like cougar. And yes a number of indigenous peoples hunted and
>ate pretty much they could get their hands on, including cougar.
>
>Tom
@@
rec.pets.cats?
Thanks!
In article <4e90tl$b...@milo.freenet.vancouver.bc.ca>, fu...@opus.freenet.vancouver.bc.ca says...
>
>Pesky Wabbit (wab...@deltanet.com) wrote:
>: The reason for the proposed law is to make the cats afraid of people. They
>: used to be afraid of people before the ban on hunting them. I would not
>: personally like to hunt cougars but if someone is willing to, go for it.
>
>: Rabbit
>
>
>How will the ones who don`t end up sitting in a tree waiting for the dogs
>to go away find out about it? I haven`t noticed a news group oc.haz.puma.
>Iv`e said it before and I`ll say it again, People who kill cougars are
>cowards because they face absolutely no risk.
>
>Keith
@@
rec.pets.cats?
Thanks!
In article <4e9qgk$d...@reader2.ix.netcom.com>, hopk...@ix.netcom.co says...
Rick Hornsby (Cougar)
>
> > Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't it seem that maybe there is no
> > where for the cougars aka Mountain Lions to run anymore? Come on the
> > population is growing constantly especially in CA....so because certain
> > people want to be able to hike through the country
>
> people hike in the wild they are taking a risk of being attacked by any of
> the animals. The law is not about killing the cats because they kill while
> in the wild. It is about the over population of the cats which drives them
> into the areas in which humans live.
>
>
> *** Well I have a different opinion on hunting. My family has hunted for
> years and years to survive (we are Native Americans). We have a tradition
> of hunting animals. We place animals and plants on the same level. If we
> were not permitted to kill animals or plants for food where would all of
> us be today. We owe alot to the hunters and gatherers. Many people do not
> like to deal with the killing of animals or plants. That is why we have
> grocery stores.
>
> I
>
>
> Rabbit
I respect your ways, and as I understand it, your people do not kill for
the sport, but as a way of life.
The shoot and run disgusts me, though. Someone wants to shoot somethin,
fine. But they better have a d*mn good reason for it.
and ummm...pardon me for stating the obvious, but last time I checked, a
bullet of a hunter's gun goes much faster than the teeth or claws of a
cougar. I was also not aware that the cougar could attack from 25+
meters away.
Cougar.
Rick Hornsby (Cougar)
@@
rec.pets.cats?
Thanks!
In article <4e96sg$g...@jeeves.usfca.edu>, fran...@usfca.edu says...
@@
rec.pets.cats?
Thanks!
In article <4e9p16$5...@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, hopk...@ix.netcom.co says...
>what we mean. Just a few thoughts.
>
>Rick
@@
rec.pets.cats?
Thanks!
In article <4e980h$d...@grid.direct.ca>, hu...@direct.ca says...
>
>bere...@ix.netcom.com(David C ) wrote:
>
>>In <4e3573$10...@news.ccit.arizona.edu> Bill Savary writes:
>>>
>>>If the purpose of the proposed hunting of mountain lions is to make
>>>it safe for hikers in semi-urban areas, then it is doomed to failure.
>Sounds like the old adage: If it moves, Pave it over!
>
>In all my years traipsng around the bush, I have NEVER seen ANY feral
>cat. My mwife has seen one ONCE (from about 2 miles away). We have had
>numerous runins with deer, coyotes, marmots, mosquitos (the Provincial
>bird of Manitoba :->) and bear (had to shoot one 2 yrs ago - life or
>death - 1st one in 35 yrs, and hopefully the last!!). We tend to keep
>a low profile, and try to not impact any more than we have to. After
>all, we are in THEIR backyard.
>
>Mike
>
>
Keith McLeod
: In article <4e8na8$d...@oravannahka.Helsinki.FI>,
: Carl J R Johansson <cjjo...@cc.Helsinki.FI> wrote:
: >Although I don't know anything about the deer situation in California my
: >scientific journal has a coverage of a recent study in Alberta where it
: >was found that pumas/cougars/mountain lions *especially* prefer large
: >prey like elks, often injuring themselves when attacking animals that
: When they start roaming around in settled rural areas, they eat
: pet food left outside, dogs, and domestic cats. No cases of them
: eating children though.
: --
: Jim Powlesland | OFFICE: 403-220-7937
: University Computing Services | MESSAGE: 403-220-6201
: University of Calgary | FAX: 403-282-9199
: Calgary, Alberta CANADA T2N 1N4 | URL: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~powlesla/
That`s true, about six or seven years ago there was a cougar darted in
North Vancouver which was estimated to have lived there for several
months or a few years. One piece of the evidence was that a side effect
of the tranquilizer is that the cat vomits and what was in its stomach was
cats, dogs, rabbits etc. This is the fauna that is expected in an urban
Canadian setting.
Maybe there is someone who has access to a Provincial Wildlife Officer
for the facts of the issue.
Keith
Keith McLeod
: Many animals are frightened by the sound of guns. The cougars that
: are missed are frightened.
: --
: John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
: *
: He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
: http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/
I would think that unless the "hunter", and I use the term lightly is
fireing his rifle frequently while he (or she) is walking then the cat
won`t have a chance to be frightened of the sound of the report unless
the triggerman misses with all of his ammunition and has to leave the
forest to go and buy more. Otherwise the sound of the report and the
bullet striking the cat, waiting patiently in the tree and posing no
danger to the fearless hunter, would be virtually instantanious.
Keith
John McCarthy
Steve asked :What does Mountain Lion taste like? Did your
ancestors hunt the lion for food?
The answer is Pretty good! At least according to Louis
L'amour (the well known western writer). He has written
that couger is the best tasting of all wild meats. Most of
his novels are based on historical fact, so I would believe
what he says is true. Our ancestors usually took advantage
of any food source that was available.
Nobody would hunt cougars for food. The trouble and danger is too
great for the amount of food obtained. If one hunted a cougar for
sport or adventure or killed one in defense of livestock, one might
certainly satisfy one's curiosity about the taste.
I'm skeptical about Louis L'Amour's accuracy, although I'm sure he's
strong on geography.
The atmospere's of his novels seem authentic, but that may be an
illusion. What bothers me about his novels set in the early 1870s is
that most active men of that time would be Civil War veterans. It
seems to me that their conversation and their relations with each
other would have been much affected by "Which side were you on?"
"What outfit were you in?" "We really wopped you at Vicksburg." "No
you didn't." "Was the 16th Regiment of Vermont Volunteers really in
the battle of Gettysburg?" (It was.)
In his novel set in Russia, L'Amour has someone fall in the water at
-50 or -60 in Siberia and climb out promptly and realize that he was
doomed to die in ten minutes or so.
My one encounter with this was at a mere -40 in Siberia. While
walking out on the Ob Sea near Akademgorodok, I came across a
rectangular opening in the ice about 4 meters by 1.5 meters that had
recently frozen over. My conjecture about its purpose was promptly
confirmed. About 5 people in overcoats came out and chopped away the
ice. Then a man stripped to his swim trunks and jumped in. He
paddled around for a few minutes, climbed out, and his wife handed him
a towel.
Remember that regardless of the air temperature, the temperature of
fresh water close to ice is exactly 0 Celsius.
The bit about the man falling in the water being doomed to a prompt
death was also in the earlier novel _Gorky Park_ by Martin Cruz Smith,
another authenticoid writer. Both Smith and L'Amour told the story
beautifully and laconically.
Steve and Christy Ross
>b...@headbone.com (Ben) wrote:
>Mike Lane
I wonder why cars are still plowing into deer on the highway after all
these years. You would think they would adapt too. Teach us to
outsmart evolution.
Steve Ross
Mike Lane
>Nobody would hunt cougars for food. The trouble and danger is too
>great for the amount of food obtained.
>
When you are hunting for food, you eat what you kill and kill what you
find.
>In his novel set in Russia, L'Amour has someone fall in the water at
>-50 or -60 in Siberia and climb out promptly and realize that he was
>doomed to die in ten minutes or so.
>
>My one encounter with this was at a mere -40 in Siberia. While
>walking out on the Ob Sea near Akademgorodok, I came across a
>rectangular opening in the ice about 4 meters by 1.5 meters that had
>recently frozen over. My conjecture about its purpose was promptly
>confirmed. About 5 people in overcoats came out and chopped away the
>ice. Then a man stripped to his swim trunks and jumped in. He
>paddled around for a few minutes, climbed out, and his wife handed him
>a towel.
>
>Remember that regardless of the air temperature, the temperature of
>fresh water close to ice is exactly 0 Celsius.
Being in the science department at Stanford I am sure that you know
something about the effects of evaporation on cooling the skin. I did
not read the novel but I am pretty sure the charater did not fall in
the water in his skivies and have his wife standing around with a dry
towel. Regardless of the water temperature, the air temperature will
determine the amount of moisture that can be evaporated and how much
energy will have to be spent doing so. A person, alone in the
wilderness without the ability to change into dry clothes or to find
an outside heat source to aid in the evaporation will most certainly
be doomed in -40 temperatures.
Mike Lane
Mike Lane
>I wonder why cars are still plowing into deer on the highway after all
>these years. You would think they would adapt too. Teach us to
>outsmart evolution.
>
>Steve Ross
How long have cars been around? Less than a hundred years. Not very
long on the evolutionary scale. Maybe the need to cross the road
outweighs the fear of cars? If the deer population was not so dense,
the deer would have less of a reason to cross most roads wouldn't
they? You do the math.
Mike Lane
Isaac Adams MURCHIE
> In <1996Jan2...@d0gs04.fnal.gov> nic...@d0gs04.fnal.gov (NICOLA)
> writes:
> > Interesting. But wouldn't the coyotes associate the sickness with
> > eating dead carcasses? What kind of sickness do they get? Can the same
> > method be applied to cougars (with a human corpse) or they eat only
> > something they kill?
> > MSNicola
> Nicola I think this crosses over what most people would consider
> reasonable.
> - Jas
cougars will only eat what they kill. they are one of the few animals
that do so.
isaac.
--
*****************************************************************
* Isaac A. Murchie "When I see somebody coming to do me *
* is...@cs.mcgill.ca some good, I reach for my revolver" *
* -George Washington Hayduke *
*****************************************************************
Steve and Christy Ross
>Mike Lane
I agree about the time frame. One of the points of this thread was
that hunting of cougars would somehow cause an adaption so that
cougars would quit bothering suburbanites. If 100 years is not long
enough to cause the change we must have some truly beneficent hunters
wanting to protect the suburbs of 2096 from the "cougar menace" we
have now.
As far as the deer crossing the road thing, I don't know if population
density has anything to do with it. My guess is that deer are fairly
mobile in their range. Any biologists with the answer? Anecdotally,
I was driving across North Dakota in a very wide open area and had
three deer dash across in front of me. I don't think the dense
population cause their travel.
Steve
Rick Toomey
>
>cougars will only eat what they kill. they are one of the few animals
>that do so.
>
>isaac.
Do you have a reference for this?
Robinette and others (1959 p. 271-272) note otherwise:
Cougars live ALMOST [emphasis mine] exclusively on prey that
they have killed. Occasional exceptions have been noted, however.
Federal hunters in Utah and Nevada have found several cougars
that apparently died from feeding on "1080" poison stations
placed out for coyote control. We likewise have encountered
three authentic cases of cougars having fed on field-dressed
deer left in the mountains by hunters to cool out overnight.
In still another instance, the stomach from a cougar killed
during the winter in Utah contained 7 lb. 10 oz. of beaver.
The contents were unusual in that no hide was present--only
an occasional hair permitted identification. Absence of
hide suggested that the cougar had fed on a skinned carcass.
I would be extremely surprised if there were any non-parasitic
carnivores that did not at least occasionally take carrion.
Reference Cited:
Robinette, W.L., Gashwiler, J.S., and Morris, O.W., 1959,
Food habits of the cougar in Utah and Nevada, Journal
of Wildlife Management, 23: 261-273.
Rick Toomey
Illinois State Museum
too...@museum.state.il.us
Ken Hashimoto
says...
>
<snip>
>
>I wonder why cars are still plowing into deer on the highway after all
>these years. You would think they would adapt too. Teach us to
>outsmart evolution.
>
>Steve Ross
>
developed sense of smell and hearing, unless certain "triggers" are
perceived, they will not go into alarm mode, ie foot stomping, snorting,
tails flashing, hopping away etc. Whereas a human being could not walk up
to a deer, the same person can literally drive up to a deer.
Ken
>
>
Ron Babcock
lions preying on domestic animals - more so in the foothills of the Sierra
Nevada - Coast range etc -- Perhaps you missed the news coverage of the
two mountain lions at the Exxon Refinery in Benicia a few months ago.
To bad you don't have a few in Golden Gate Park so you could really
appreciate them!
Ron
m...@netvision.net.il
In Article<4e96bh$g...@jeeves.usfca.edu>, <fran...@usfca.edu> write:
> Path: news.NetVision.net.il!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!pipeline!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!nntp-ucb.barrnet.net!jeeves.usfca.edu!news
> From: "v.pagan" <fran...@usfca.edu>
> Newsgroups: talk.environment,sci.environment,talk.politics.animals,rec.pets,ca.politics,rec.pets.cats,rec.animals.wildlife,rec.food.veg,alt.save-the-earth,talk.religion.new-age,alt.org.sierra-club,alt.org.earth-first,rec.backcountry
> Subject: Re: Hunting Mountain Lions
> Organization: University of San Francisco
> Lines: 15
> Message-ID: <4e96bh$g...@jeeves.usfca.edu>
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>
> wab...@deltanet.com (Pesky Wabbit) wrote:
> >The reason for the proposed law is to make the cats afraid of people. They
> >used to be afraid of people before the ban on hunting them. I would not
> >personally like to hunt cougars but if someone is willing to, go for it.
>
>
law-abiding than we are? Heck, I didn't know cougars paid=
> that much attention to the law as you seem to think--so if they are afraid
of humans ONLY when they know two-leggers can't kill the=
> m legally, why not pass a law that makes it ILLEGAL for cougars to kill
two-leggers? (Now, I realize that WE seem unable to follow o=
> ur own laws, but maybe cougars are smarter.) Hmm. Interesting concept.
Maybe if we passed a law making the hunting of rapists, mu=
> ggers, and burglars legal, THEY would be too afraid to come out of hiding .
. it's worth a try, though.;-)
> eaf
> somebody call Janet Reno!
>
>
test
@@
rec.pets.cats?
Thanks!
In article <4eg99n$g...@lisa.cs.mcgill.ca>, is...@maggie.cs.mcgill.ca says...
>
>Nasir Hamdani (fb...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>> In <1996Jan2...@d0gs04.fnal.gov> nic...@d0gs04.fnal.gov (NICOLA)
>> writes:
>
>> > Interesting. But wouldn't the coyotes associate the sickness with
>> > eating dead carcasses? What kind of sickness do they get? Can the same
>> > method be applied to cougars (with a human corpse) or they eat only
>> > something they kill?
>> > MSNicola
>
>
>> Nicola I think this crosses over what most people would consider
>> reasonable.
>
>> - Jas
>
>cougars will only eat what they kill. they are one of the few animals
>that do so.
>
>isaac.
>
@@
rec.pets.cats?
Thanks!
In article <NEWTNews.8229...@dialup.netvision.net.il>, m...@netvision.net.il says...
>
>
>In Article<4e96bh$g...@jeeves.usfca.edu>, <fran...@usfca.edu> write:
>> Path: news.NetVision.net.il!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!pipeline!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!nn
>> From: "v.pagan" <fran...@usfca.edu>
>> Newsgroups: talk.environment,sci.environment,talk.politics.animals,rec.pets,ca.politics,rec.pets.cats,rec.animals.wildlife,rec.food.veg,alt.save-the-ear
>> Subject: Re: Hunting Mountain Lions
>> Date: 26 Jan 1996 00:13:37 GMT
>> Organization: University of San Francisco
>> Lines: 15
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>>
@@
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In article <4eb9np$4...@jeeves.usfca.edu>, fran...@usfca.edu says...
@@
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In article <4ebneh$k...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, tbist...@aol.com says...
>
>Steve asked :What does Mountain Lion
>taste like? Did your ancestors hunt the lion for food?
>
>The answer is Pretty good! At least according to Louis L'amour (the well
>known western writer). He has written that couger is the best tasting of
>all wild meats. Most of his novels are based on historical fact, so I
>would believe what he says is true. Our ancestors usually took advantage
>of any food source that was available.
>
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In article <4ebsbi$i...@milo.freenet.vancouver.bc.ca>, fu...@opus.freenet.vancouver.bc.ca says...
>
>John McCarthy (j...@Steam.stanford.edu) wrote:
>: Many animals are frightened by the sound of guns. The cougars that
>: are missed are frightened.
>: --
>: John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
>: *
>: He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
>: http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/
>
@@
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In article <JMC.96Ja...@Steam.stanford.edu>, j...@Steam.stanford.edu says...
>
>Terry Bistrovic includes:
>
> Steve asked :What does Mountain Lion taste like? Did your
> ancestors hunt the lion for food?
>
> The answer is Pretty good! At least according to Louis
> L'amour (the well known western writer). He has written
> that couger is the best tasting of all wild meats. Most of
> his novels are based on historical fact, so I would believe
> what he says is true. Our ancestors usually took advantage
> of any food source that was available.
>
>Nobody would hunt cougars for food. The trouble and danger is too
>great for the amount of food obtained. If one hunted a cougar for
>sport or adventure or killed one in defense of livestock, one might
>certainly satisfy one's curiosity about the taste.
>
>I'm skeptical about Louis L'Amour's accuracy, although I'm sure he's
>strong on geography.
>
>The atmospere's of his novels seem authentic, but that may be an
>illusion. What bothers me about his novels set in the early 1870s is
>that most active men of that time would be Civil War veterans. It
>seems to me that their conversation and their relations with each
>other would have been much affected by "Which side were you on?"
>"What outfit were you in?" "We really wopped you at Vicksburg." "No
>you didn't." "Was the 16th Regiment of Vermont Volunteers really in
>the battle of Gettysburg?" (It was.)
>
>In his novel set in Russia, L'Amour has someone fall in the water at
>-50 or -60 in Siberia and climb out promptly and realize that he was
>doomed to die in ten minutes or so.
>
>My one encounter with this was at a mere -40 in Siberia. While
>walking out on the Ob Sea near Akademgorodok, I came across a
>rectangular opening in the ice about 4 meters by 1.5 meters that had
>recently frozen over. My conjecture about its purpose was promptly
>confirmed. About 5 people in overcoats came out and chopped away the
>ice. Then a man stripped to his swim trunks and jumped in. He
>paddled around for a few minutes, climbed out, and his wife handed him
>a towel.
>
>Remember that regardless of the air temperature, the temperature of
>fresh water close to ice is exactly 0 Celsius.
>
>The bit about the man falling in the water being doomed to a prompt
>death was also in the earlier novel _Gorky Park_ by Martin Cruz Smith,
>another authenticoid writer. Both Smith and L'Amour told the story
>beautifully and laconically.
>
>
@@
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In article <310a5498...@server.cntfl.com>, tl...@nettally.com says...
>
>j...@Steam.stanford.edu (John McCarthy) wrote:
>
>>Nobody would hunt cougars for food. The trouble and danger is too
>>great for the amount of food obtained.
>>
>When you are hunting for food, you eat what you kill and kill what you
>find.
>
>>In his novel set in Russia, L'Amour has someone fall in the water at
>>-50 or -60 in Siberia and climb out promptly and realize that he was
>>doomed to die in ten minutes or so.
>>
>>My one encounter with this was at a mere -40 in Siberia. While
>>walking out on the Ob Sea near Akademgorodok, I came across a
>>rectangular opening in the ice about 4 meters by 1.5 meters that had
>>recently frozen over. My conjecture about its purpose was promptly
>>confirmed. About 5 people in overcoats came out and chopped away the
>>ice. Then a man stripped to his swim trunks and jumped in. He
>>paddled around for a few minutes, climbed out, and his wife handed him
>>a towel.
>>
>>Remember that regardless of the air temperature, the temperature of
>>fresh water close to ice is exactly 0 Celsius.
>
@@
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In article <4egm0q$6...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, too...@denr1.igis.uiuc.edu says...
>
>is...@maggie.cs.mcgill.ca (Isaac Adams MURCHIE) writes:
>
>>
>>cougars will only eat what they kill. they are one of the few animals
>>that do so.
>>
>>isaac.
>
@@
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Thanks!
In article <4egrmv$i...@oracle.damerica.net>, rbab...@community.net says...
>
>In article <4eb9np$4...@jeeves.usfca.edu>, "v.pagan" <fran...@usfca.edu> says:
>>
>>rbab...@community.net (ron babcock) wrote:
>>>Cougars are eating a lot of dogs and cats of people that live in the foot
>>>hills AND even on the fringes of major Bay Area urban areas.
>>
>>
>>Bullshit. I live in San Francisco. Cite your source for that or retract.
>>
>>eaf
>>
Nasir Hamdani
>
>rbab...@community.net (ron babcock) wrote:
>>Cougars are eating a lot of dogs and cats of people that live in the
foot
>>hills AND even on the fringes of major Bay Area urban areas.
>
>
>Bullshit. I live in San Francisco. Cite your source for that or
retract.
>
>eaf
>
Eaf is correct, I live across the bay from SF and my house backs up to
a canyon that is knwon to have mountain lions. I have lived here for
15 years and have never even heard of a pet being attacked.
- Jas
Nasir Hamdani
Babcock) writes:
the
>two mountain lions at the Exxon Refinery in Benicia a few months ago.
>
I don't live far from there. I heard about it. There was actually
nothing to it.
- Jas
*************
>
>In article <4e9i8q$l...@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> sro...@ix.netcom.com (Steve and Christy Ross) writes:
>>From: sro...@ix.netcom.com (Steve and Christy Ross)
>>Subject: Re: Hunting Mountain Lions
>
>
>> What does Mountain Lion taste like? Did your ancestors hunt the lion for
>food?
>
>
>Cougar tastes like cougar. And yes a number of indigenous peoples hunted and
>ate pretty much they could get their hands on, including cougar.
>
>Tom
It's a very like meat, similar to the best pork loin -- mild in tast and
amazingly tender -- as in all omni-or-carnivors take precautions against
Trichinosis (sp?).
Ron
wes...@hg.uleth.ca
>is...@maggie.cs.mcgill.ca (Isaac Adams MURCHIE) writes:
>
>>
>>cougars will only eat what they kill. they are one of the few animals
>>that do so.
>>
>>isaac.
>
>Do you have a reference for this?
>
>Robinette and others (1959 p. 271-272) note otherwise:
>
> Cougars live ALMOST [emphasis mine] exclusively on prey that
> they have killed. Occasional exceptions have been noted, however.
> Federal hunters in Utah and Nevada have found several cougars
> that apparently died from feeding on "1080" poison stations
> placed out for coyote control. We likewise have encountered
> three authentic cases of cougars having fed on field-dressed
> deer left in the mountains by hunters to cool out overnight.
> In still another instance, the stomach from a cougar killed
> during the winter in Utah contained 7 lb. 10 oz. of beaver.
> The contents were unusual in that no hide was present--only
> an occasional hair permitted identification. Absence of
> hide suggested that the cougar had fed on a skinned carcass.
>
>I would be extremely surprised if there were any non-parasitic
>carnivores that did not at least occasionally take carrion.
What the heck is a non-parasitic carnivore.
Dr. Paul W. Ross
particular to do with human preditation. As for deer, they are kind of
like large dumb rabbits. They know about as much about cars as my dog! We
have about 30,000 road kills of deer here in Pennsylvania per year by
cars, in contrast to about 350,000 taken in hunting. Current herd size is
about 1,000,000. Pretty good game management, overall. Kill has been down
in northeast counties - probably too many doe licenses being given out.
--
== Paul
"They that give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty or safety" -- Benjamin Franklin
ro...@cs.millersv.edu
Dr. Paul W. Ross, Professor, Department of Computer Science
Millersville University, Millersville, PA 17551-0302
(717) 872-3534 - Office, (717) 871-2320 - FAX
Anonymous
> tl...@nettally.com (Mike Lane) wrote:
>
> >Reducing the population of mountain lions away from urban areas and
> >heavily used recreation land free area that pressured lions can be
> >captured and relocated to. Any lion that refuses to leave populated
> >areas, preferring trash cans, pets and small children to deer meat,
> >can be captured and/or destroyed by animal control officers without
> >the need for urban hunting.
>
> >P.S. I would no go cougar hunting, treeing an animal and shooting it
> >just does not seem very sporting to me. Very efficient for population
> >control though.
>
>
> Seems to me that the only critter whose population needs to be reduced
> is homo sapiens.
--i agree, humans cause more deathj than any wild animal and we supposedly
know better, we are supposedly the moral, intelligent race. --huh!--
> We are the ones taking territory away from the cats.
> Here in California, dimwits who move to what was until recently
> was wild get hysterical when a cougar is sighted.
> They remind me of certain yuppie wannabes who bought up some
> condos in a renovated Victorian mansion here in SAn FRancisco--
> right accross the street from some projects . . .they would constantly
> be calling the SFPD complaining about the noise, crime, etc--an
> aquaintance of mine in the department would ask them what they
> expected--why did they think the condos were so cheap in the first
> place?
> I never heard opf a cougar who littered, or dumped toxic waste in the
> ocean.
> So which species should be shot on sight, anyway?
> Look, we have trahed almost all of the planet's surface--why not let the
> wild ones have the little bits of wilderness that are left?
> eaf
Anonymous
wab...@deltanet.com (Pesky Wabbit) wrote:
> In article <4e7lfe$b...@ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, jsho...@ix.netcom.com
> (Jack Shollenberger ) wrote:
>
>
> > Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't it seem that maybe there is no
> > where for the cougars aka Mountain Lions to run anymore? Come on the
> > population is growing constantly especially in CA....so because certain
> > people want to be able to hike through the country
>
> *** The cats are coming into the suburbs to snack on kids and pets. When
> people hike in the wild they are taking a risk of being attacked by any of
> the animals. The law is not about killing the cats because they kill while
> in the wild. It is about the over population of the cats which drives them
> into the areas in which humans live.
>
>
> >Sorry but I am against hunting of any kind..
>
> *** Well I have a different opinion on hunting. My family has hunted for
> years and years to survive (we are Native Americans). We have a tradition
> of hunting animals. We place animals and plants on the same level. If we
> were not permitted to kill animals or plants for food where would all of
> us be today. We owe alot to the hunters and gatherers. Many people do not
> like to deal with the killing of animals or plants. That is why we have
> grocery stores.
--that is all well and good but you know the hunters to be hunting these
cats are NOT hunting for food because they have to survive. They are
hunting these anilmals for the sheer sake of REDUCING their existence -
after they went through the trouble to bring them back into existence.--
>
> I
> > don't consider it a sport the cougar doesn't have a gun.
>
> *** And a hunter does not have sharp teeth or claws.
>
> Rabbit
Anonymous
> wab...@deltanet.com (Pesky Wabbit) wrote:
> >The reason for the proposed law is to make the cats afraid of people. They
> >used to be afraid of people before the ban on hunting them. I would not
> >personally like to hunt cougars but if someone is willing to, go for it.
>
>
> Umm . . .let me see if I got this straight . . . so then are cougars
more law-abiding than we are? Heck, I didn't know cougars paid=
> that much attention to the law as you seem to think--so if they are
afraid of humans ONLY when they know two-leggers can't kill the=
> m legally, why not pass a law that makes it ILLEGAL for cougars to kill
two-leggers? (Now, I realize that WE seem unable to follow o=
> ur own laws, but maybe cougars are smarter.) Hmm. Interesting
concept. Maybe if we passed a law making the hunting of rapists, mu=
> ggers, and burglars legal, THEY would be too afraid to come out of
hiding . . . it's worth a try, though.;-)
> eaf
> somebody call Janet Reno!
-its not a point of the cats being afraid of humans. Cats live on instinct
and if they are hungry enough they will attack an unsuspecting human,
afraid or not. Humans cannot fight a wild cat, we are easy kill for a cat
and once they figure that out, then its over for the humans. the only way
is to relocate some of the lions and be sure there is enough food for them
in the wild. There are so many people that the wild is being invaded -
where else are these cats supposed to go? It's unfiar to them, we are the
cause of their current behavior and our only solution is to kill them? no
wonder there is so much violence in the world.--
Ron Babcock
>
>This is all very interesting, but could you please *not* post it to
>rec.pets.cats?
>
>Thanks!
>
>>
>>t01...@abdn.ac.uk (t01mtm) wrote:
>>>Who knows...there could be many factors, natural selection could well
>>>be insignificant or have unexpected results.
>>>
>>>Anyone who knows anything about this stuff like to comment?
>>
>>
>>I live in California.
>>The problem is that people are moving into lion territory.
>>The lions are just being themselves. People have to understand
>>that if they want to live in the boonies, they must learn to appreciate
>>the reality of the wild, and not act like fools. Apparently many can't
>>quite figure it out. Sort of like dimwit tourists who walk through
>>the projects with their cameras and pockets full of traveler's checks.
>>Stupidity can have fatal sequelae, in the wilds and in the cities.
>>Quite a state, California.
>>The state flag has a grizzly bear on it--
>>but they killed off all of 'em years ago.
>>Kinda says it all.
>>eaf
I just heard about a similar problem in Tiawan with tourists being knocked
off.... after the Gov. put the first 10 bad guys they caught in front of the
firing squad -- anyone could walk around with $100 bills sticking out of
their pockets with no fear of being mugged!!!!!!!
Regards Ron
Ron Babcock
>
>
>> *** Well I have a different opinion on hunting. My family has hunted for
>> years and years to survive (we are Native Americans). We have a tradition
>> of hunting animals. We place animals and plants on the same level. If we
>> were not permitted to kill animals or plants for food where would all of
>> us be today. We owe alot to the hunters and gatherers. Many people do not
>> like to deal with the killing of animals or plants. That is why we have
>> grocery stores.
>--that is all well and good but you know the hunters to be hunting these
>cats are NOT hunting for food because they have to survive. They are
>hunting these anilmals for the sheer sake of REDUCING their existence -
>after they went through the trouble to bring them back into existence.--
First they weren't "out of existence" and second "reducing" their existence
is a matter somatics--- harvesting the surplus is just as viable!
Now who determines who is surplus --- this ought bring on the arm chair
wildlife managers!!
Ron
@@
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In article <4ek4o4$3...@oracle.damerica.net>, rbab...@community.net says...
@@
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In article <4eique$o...@utopia.hacktic.nl>, nob...@REPLAY.COM says...
>
>In article <wabbit-2501...@ana3099.deltanet.com>,
>wab...@deltanet.com (Pesky Wabbit) wrote:
>
>> In article <4e7lfe$b...@ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, jsho...@ix.netcom.com
>> (Jack Shollenberger ) wrote:
>>
>>
>> > Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't it seem that maybe there is no
>> > where for the cougars aka Mountain Lions to run anymore? Come on the
>> > population is growing constantly especially in CA....so because certain
>> > people want to be able to hike through the country
>>
>> *** The cats are coming into the suburbs to snack on kids and pets. When
>> people hike in the wild they are taking a risk of being attacked by any of
>> the animals. The law is not about killing the cats because they kill while
>> in the wild. It is about the over population of the cats which drives them
>> into the areas in which humans live.
>>
>>
>> >Sorry but I am against hunting of any kind..
>>
>> *** Well I have a different opinion on hunting. My family has hunted for
>> years and years to survive (we are Native Americans). We have a tradition
>> of hunting animals. We place animals and plants on the same level. If we
>> were not permitted to kill animals or plants for food where would all of
>> us be today. We owe alot to the hunters and gatherers. Many people do not
>> like to deal with the killing of animals or plants. That is why we have
>> grocery stores.
>--that is all well and good but you know the hunters to be hunting these
>cats are NOT hunting for food because they have to survive. They are
>hunting these anilmals for the sheer sake of REDUCING their existence -
>after they went through the trouble to bring them back into existence.--
>>
@@
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In article <4eirch$o...@utopia.hacktic.nl>, nob...@REPLAY.COM says...
@@
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In article <4eit72$e...@oracle.damerica.net>, rbab...@community.net says...
Jack Shollenberger
And the cougar doesn't go out "hunting" for man..
>> Rabbit
Nasir Hamdani
Hopkins ) writes:
>I would not call it common. But cougars do in fact occassionally take
>pets (dogs, cats) adjacent to various Bay Area Cities. House cats in
>particularly are subject to predation by a variety of predators.
>Usually coyotes and bobcats account for the highest predation of house
>cats with hawks and owls next and cougars last. You can not always
>tell what killed fluffy. Small dogs are most frequently taken again
by
>coyotes and bobcats with lions a distant last. Large dogs are almost
>exclusively taken by cougars. While it is not all that common. Their
>are documented cases around the Bay Area.
>
Rick,
The point I was disputing is that it happens often. The original
poster implied that it is a common occurrence which it is not. There
are coyotes all over the place near my house. I wouldn't be at all
surprised if they grabbed a couple of cats. The owners would never
know what happened to them.
- Jas
Corey Lee Bishop
: On Jan 30 3:28:16 GMT
: Message-ID: <4ek38g$p...@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
: hopk...@ix.netcom.com(Rick A. Hopkins ) Wrote:
: >But cougars do in fact occassionally take
: >pets (dogs, cats) adjacent to various Bay Area Cities. House cats in
: >particularly are subject to predation by a variety of predators.
: You know, those worried about pets being taken by predators (to which Rick
: was responding) should keep them indoors (especially cats) and bring dogs
: in before dark and not let them out early morning if your *fenced* back
: yard is not protected from various predators. This would also protect
: them from disease, cars, poisons, etc.
This has no bearing on the cats which can and do hunt any hour they please.
And don't forget about the cougar that was found in a tree in a school
yard while children were playing there. Now you may want to speculate
on why the cat was there, perhaps he was just curious, perhaps he was
hungry......
: Coral Cotten
: Proc...@aol.com
: California
: No on 197 Campaign
Sue
--
"Inconceivable!"
"You keep using that word. I don' think it means
what you think it means." _The Princess Bride_
"Never underestimate the power of stupidity." Robert Heinlein
Rick A. Hopkins
writes:
I would not call it common. But cougars do in fact occassionally take
pets (dogs, cats) adjacent to various Bay Area Cities. House cats in
particularly are subject to predation by a variety of predators.
@@
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In article <4eirch$o...@utopia.hacktic.nl>, nob...@REPLAY.COM says...
@@
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In article <4eipu5$q...@holly.cc.uleth.ca>, wes...@hg.uleth.ca says...
PROCYON L
Message-ID: <4ek38g$p...@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
hopk...@ix.netcom.com(Rick A. Hopkins ) Wrote:
>But cougars do in fact occassionally take
>pets (dogs, cats) adjacent to various Bay Area Cities. House cats in
>particularly are subject to predation by a variety of predators.
You know, those worried about pets being taken by predators (to which Rick
was responding) should keep them indoors (especially cats) and bring dogs
in before dark and not let them out early morning if your *fenced* back
yard is not protected from various predators. This would also protect
them from disease, cars, poisons, etc.
Coral Cotten
Anonymous
Babcock) wrote:
> In article <4eique$o...@utopia.hacktic.nl>, nob...@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) says:
> >
> >
> >> *** Well I have a different opinion on hunting. My family has hunted for
> >> years and years to survive (we are Native Americans). We have a tradition
> >> of hunting animals. We place animals and plants on the same level. If we
> >> were not permitted to kill animals or plants for food where would all of
> >> us be today. We owe alot to the hunters and gatherers. Many people do not
> >> like to deal with the killing of animals or plants. That is why we have
> >> grocery stores.
> >--that is all well and good but you know the hunters to be hunting these
> >cats are NOT hunting for food because they have to survive. They are
> >hunting these anilmals for the sheer sake of REDUCING their existence -
> >after they went through the trouble to bring them back into existence.--
>
> First they weren't "out of existence" and second "reducing" their existence
> is a matter somatics--- harvesting the surplus is just as viable!
>
> Now who determines who is surplus --- this ought bring on the arm chair
> wildlife managers!!
>
> Ron
>
--they were extinct - which implies nearly "out of existence"- that is why
there was a hunting ban. Now they have 6000 lions running around. I dont
neccesarily think this is surplus but someone does. You can "harvest" by
capturing some of them and relocating them unharmed, you don't have to
hunt to kill just for sport. there is enough violence in this world--
Rick A. Hopkins
writes:
>And don't forget about the cougar that was found in a tree in a school
>yard while children were playing there. Now you may want to speculate
>on why the cat was there, perhaps he was just curious, perhaps he was
>hungry......
>
>Sue
>--
Sue:
I am not sure of your point. Cougars periodically occur in places that
are unusually. This has occured for decades. It is certainly more
common today. Largely due to the huge human population in California.
Most Bay Area cities for instance are immediatley adjacent to (and even
some of their city limits) good lion habitat. Stanford Campus for
instance is about 8,800 acres and includes good lion habitat.
Particularly around SLAC. Think of the cougar that wandered up the
Truckee River in the heavy fog one day several years ago to find
himself sitting across from city hall when the fog cleared. Surprised
him and local residents. The interesting and lucky thing (maybe it is
merely statistical) that none of these local incursions into human
occuppied areas has resulted in an attack (at least not in California)
Sincerely,
Rick
Rick A. Hopkins
writes:
>
>In article <4elt7f$i...@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, jsho...@ix.netcom.com
>(Jack Shollenberger ) wrote:
>
>> [...]
>> And the cougar doesn't go out "hunting" for man..
>>
>
>
>--
>G. Boggs
George:
I would have to say we have quite a bit of empirical evidence to
support the idea that cougars do not hunt humans to any great extent.
There are less than 70 attacks in North America in the last 150 years.
If cougars actively hunting humans (other than the rare incident) than
we would find 100 or more attacks a year in North America. Given the
frequency with which humans recreate in cougar habitat they clearly are
avoiding humans as a prey item (this is ecologically speaking).
Tigers, African lions, leapords, jaguar are all known to kill humans
somewhat regularly. They appear to be more agressive cats. All of
these cats are larger than the cougar with the exception of the
leopard.
Hope this is helpful.
Rick