Gravity
metspitzer
Lawrence Krauss just said that gravity pushes.
I saw a Universe show on the History channel and Michio Kaku said that
space was actually pushing you into your chair.
Who is right?
Sapient Fridge
<kilo...@charter.net> writes
Wrong, the Earth sucks.
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metspitzer
wrote:
Lawrence Krauss said that gravity pulls
typo or just brain fart.
Ye Old One
<use_repl...@spamsights.org> enriched this group when s/he
wrote:
>In message <3v5lt4d0gmcmfpavj...@4ax.com>, metspitzer
><kilo...@charter.net> writes
>>I have been watching Live Webcast of Origins Symposium at ASU.
>>Lawrence Krauss just said that gravity pushes.
>>
>>I saw a Universe show on the History channel and Michio Kaku said that
>>space was actually pushing you into your chair.
>>
>>Who is right?
>
>Wrong, the Earth sucks.
Pity more women don't.
--
Bob.
Gregory A Greenman
I vote for pull.
Consider the two possibilities:
1. Masses exert a gravitational attraction that pulls you toward
them in proportion to their mass and your distance to them.
This theory predicts that if you are X distance from Jupiter, you
will feel the effect of gravity more than if you are X distance
from Earth. Further, it predicts that if you travel from Earth to
the Moon, there will be a point at which you reach equilibrium and
it will be closer to the Moon than the Earth because of the Earth's
greater mass.
Those predictions are bourne out by observations.
2. Something (the vacuum of space?) pushes you away.
Under this "theory" what direction should it be pushing you? Let's
say, mass has no effect, but lack of mass, IOW vacuum, pushes. You
might argue that this then makes the same predictions as above.
But, ISTM, that it would also predict that in the vacuum of space,
you would feel pressure, since you are being pushed from all sides.
This prediction has obviously been falsified.
So, I think the pull theory wins. Of course, WRT science, I am just
a lay person.
--
Greg
http://www.spencerbooksellers.com
newsguy -at- spencersoft -dot- com
Damaeus
metspitzer <kilo...@charter.net> posted:
Gravity swirls, ripples and gyrates. It jiggles. Ever been walking by a
table and lose your balance, maybe start falling toward the table?
Everything has a gravity field. Sometimes if you walk by a table without
anticipating its effect, you can start falling toward it absent-mindedly.
Same thing happens walking around corners.
Damaeus
--
This signature space was intentionally not left blank.
Damaeus
metspitzer <kilo...@charter.net> posted:
> I have been watching Live Webcast of Origins Symposium at ASU.
> Lawrence Krauss just said that gravity pushes.
Yes. That's because the universe is compressed by the big bang. It's
also why we can't fly. "The Fall" in the Garden of Eden was the
punishment of gravity on mankind. Once the universe finishes expanding,
we won't be forced to stay on the ground anymore.
> I saw a Universe show on the History channel and Michio Kaku said that
> space was actually pushing you into your chair.
>
> Who is right?
Michio Kaku is.
John Smith
"metspitzer" <kilo...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:3v5lt4d0gmcmfpavj...@4ax.com...
Neither, I hope.
I couldn't stand the possibility that the rest of the universe just didn't
want us.
Was it something I said?
John Smith
"Damaeus" <no-...@damaeus.yahoo.invalid> wrote in message
news:lrrlt4tq3nutr438h...@4ax.com...
> Reading from news:talk.origins,
> metspitzer <kilo...@charter.net> posted:
>
>> On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 19:04:35 -0500, metspitzer <kilo...@charter.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I have been watching Live Webcast of Origins Symposium at ASU.
>> >Lawrence Krauss just said that gravity pushes.
>> >
>> >I saw a Universe show on the History channel and Michio Kaku said that
>> >space was actually pushing you into your chair.
>> >
>> >Who is right?
>>
>> Lawrence Krauss said that gravity pulls
>
> Gravity swirls, ripples and gyrates. It jiggles.
Naaa .... that's just Delores.
Bill
> On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 00:10:38 +0100, Sapient Fridge
> wrote:
>
> >In message <3v5lt4d0gmcmfpavjoch8dvrmbpc8cb...@4ax.com>, metspitzer
> ><kilow...@charter.net> writes
> >>I have been watching Live Webcast of Origins Symposium at ASU.
> >>Lawrence Krauss just said that gravity pushes.
>
> >>I saw a Universe show on the History channel and Michio Kaku said that
> >>space was actually pushing you into your chair.
>
> >>Who is right?
>
> >Wrong, the Earth sucks.
>
> Pity more women don't.
Well, alive at your age that is.
Youngest is 130. If you went with her, youd be locked up for
underage sex. LOOOOOL.
>
> --
> Bob.
Sapient Fridge
<4ab4c855-cb12-48e6...@z14g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
Bill <spint...@hotmail.com> writes
Hmm, I see that I seem to be out of Ye Old Ones killfile now - so I'll
take him out of mine.
Bill
wrote:
> Hmm, I see that I seem to be out of Ye Old Ones killfile now
Please can I swap places, if you aren't.
Boikat
> Reading from news:talk.origins,
>
> > On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 19:04:35 -0500, metspitzer <kilow...@charter.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > >I have been watching Live Webcast of Origins Symposium at ASU.
> > >Lawrence Krauss just said that gravity pushes.
>
> > >I saw a Universe show on the History channel and Michio Kaku said that
> > >space was actually pushing you into your chair.
>
> > >Who is right?
>
> > Lawrence Krauss said that gravity pulls
>
> Gravity swirls, ripples and gyrates. It jiggles. Ever been walking by a
> table and lose your balance, maybe start falling toward the table?
> Everything has a gravity field. Sometimes if you walk by a table without
> anticipating its effect, you can start falling toward it absent-mindedly.
> Same thing happens walking around corners.
Try walking near a table, and not anticipating the gravitational tug,
while sober. Maybe booze increases the felt effect of gravity. :}
Boikat
Steven L.
"It surrounds us, and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together."
-- Yoda
--
Steven L.
Email: sdli...@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.
Damaeus
"John Smith" <bobsyo...@yahoo.com> posted:
> "Damaeus" <no-...@damaeus.yahoo.invalid> wrote in message
> news:lrrlt4tq3nutr438h...@4ax.com...
> > Reading from news:talk.origins,
> > metspitzer <kilo...@charter.net> posted:
> >
> >> Lawrence Krauss said that gravity pulls
> >
> > Gravity swirls, ripples and gyrates. It jiggles.
>
> Naaa .... that's just Delores.
Who is Delores?
John Smith
"Damaeus" <no-...@damaeus.yahoo.invalid> wrote in message
> Reading from news:talk.origins,
> "John Smith" <bobsyo...@yahoo.com> posted:
>
>> "Damaeus" <no-...@damaeus.yahoo.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:lrrlt4tq3nutr438h...@4ax.com...
>> > Reading from news:talk.origins,
>> > metspitzer <kilo...@charter.net> posted:
>> >
>> >> Lawrence Krauss said that gravity pulls
>> >
>> > Gravity swirls, ripples and gyrates. It jiggles.
>>
>> Naaa .... that's just Delores.
>
> Who is Delores?
an over the hill pole dancer.
tgde...@earthlink.net
> On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 19:04:35 -0500, metspitzer <kilow...@charter.net>
> wrote:
>
> >I have been watching Live Webcast of Origins Symposium at ASU.
> >Lawrence Krauss just said that gravity pushes.
>
> >I saw a Universe show on the History channel and Michio Kaku said that
> >space was actually pushing you into your chair.
>
> >Who is right?
>
> Lawrence Krauss said that gravity pulls
>
> typo or just brain fart.
Is this like the other thread with Alan Watts?
Actually, the pushing has a bit more stature since you could argue
proximate cause; we are obliged to conform to the space-time metric,
and the causal relationship between the nature of the local space
around the chair and the 'mass' of the earth is one step removed, and,
to my mind, not completely clear.
Of course, Alan Watts might not make that distinction....
-tg
Damaeus
tgde...@earthlink.net posted:
> Actually, the pushing has a bit more stature since you could argue
> proximate cause; we are obliged to conform to the space-time metric,
> and the causal relationship between the nature of the local space
> around the chair and the 'mass' of the earth is one step removed, and,
> to my mind, not completely clear.
>
> Of course, Alan Watts might not make that distinction....
Well, I certainly do.
Is there such a thing as an entropy meter that would monitor energy
balance?
Damaeus
"Steven L." <sdli...@earthlink.net> posted:
> Damaeus wrote:
>
> > Gravity swirls, ripples and gyrates. It jiggles. Ever been walking by a
> > table and lose your balance, maybe start falling toward the table?
> > Everything has a gravity field. Sometimes if you walk by a table without
> > anticipating its effect, you can start falling toward it absent-mindedly.
> > Same thing happens walking around corners.
>
> "It surrounds us, and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together."
> -- Yoda
Why is it that I can't just speak my mind, from my own experience (which
includes high school, and some college-level classes without being related
to fictional characters? I was probing to see if anybody else experiences
the same thing. It's part of me figuring out if it's /just/ me or if
other people go through the same thing. I'm self-diagnosing. :)
tgde...@earthlink.net
> Reading from news:talk.origins,
>
> > Damaeus wrote:
>
> > > Gravity swirls, ripples and gyrates. It jiggles. Ever been walking by a
> > > table and lose your balance, maybe start falling toward the table?
> > > Everything has a gravity field. Sometimes if you walk by a table without
> > > anticipating its effect, you can start falling toward it absent-mindedly.
> > > Same thing happens walking around corners.
>
> > "It surrounds us, and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together."
> > -- Yoda
>
> Why is it that I can't just speak my mind, from my own experience (which
> includes high school, and some college-level classes without being related
> to fictional characters? I was probing to see if anybody else experiences
> the same thing. It's part of me figuring out if it's /just/ me or if
> other people go through the same thing. I'm self-diagnosing. :)
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_disorder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrophobia
Read down the Acrophobia article to the part about visual perception
effects.
-tg
Robert Weldon
> Damaeus wrote:
> > Reading from news:talk.origins,
>
> >> On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 19:04:35 -0500, metspitzer <kilow...@charter.net>
> >> wrote:
>
> >>> I have been watching Live Webcast of Origins Symposium at ASU.
> >>> Lawrence Krauss just said that gravity pushes.
>
> >>> I saw a Universe show on the History channel and Michio Kaku said that
> >>> space was actually pushing you into your chair.
>
> >>> Who is right?
> >> Lawrence Krauss said that gravity pulls
>
> > Gravity swirls, ripples and gyrates. It jiggles. Ever been walking by a
> > table and lose your balance, maybe start falling toward the table?
> > Everything has a gravity field. Sometimes if you walk by a table without
> > anticipating its effect, you can start falling toward it absent-mindedly.
> > Same thing happens walking around corners.
>
> > Damaeus
>
> "It surrounds us, and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together."
> -- Yoda
>
> --
> Steven L.
> Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Nope, Obi-Wan said that. It couldn't have been Yoda, backwards talks
he does.
unrestra...@hotmail.com
> Reading from news:talk.origins,
The pull of a pool table - or a mountain - would be too small for a
human to notice. Other factors, mostly psychological, would be
stronger. Now, large masses - like mountains - can be detected by very
precise instruments, but these effects cannot be noticed by humans.
You're right in principle, but in practice - the effect is too small.
Kermit
unrestra...@hotmail.com
> Reading from news:talk.origins,
>
> > I have been watching Live Webcast of Origins Symposium at ASU.
> > Lawrence Krauss just said that gravity pushes.
>
> Yes. That's because the universe is compressed by the big bang. It's
> also why we can't fly. "The Fall" in the Garden of Eden was the
> punishment of gravity on mankind. Once the universe finishes expanding,
> we won't be forced to stay on the ground anymore.
[...]
OK, now you're just goofing on us, right?
The universe, and therefore gravity, was in place about 14 billion
years before humans existed.
Under what conditions do you think there wouldn't be gravity on a
planet? You seem to be suggesting that planetary gravity depends on
the universe expanding.
>
> > I saw a Universe show on the History channel and Michio Kaku said that
> > space was actually pushing you into your chair.
>
> > Who is right?
>
> Michio Kaku is.
>
> Damaeus
> --
> This signature space was intentionally not left blank.
Kermit
Garamond Lethe
> Reading from news:talk.origins,
> tgde...@earthlink.net posted:
>
>> Actually, the pushing has a bit more stature since you could argue
>> proximate cause; we are obliged to conform to the space-time metric,
>> and the causal relationship between the nature of the local space
>> around the chair and the 'mass' of the earth is one step removed, and,
>> to my mind, not completely clear.
>>
>> Of course, Alan Watts might not make that distinction....
>
> Well, I certainly do.
>
> Is there such a thing as an entropy meter that would monitor energy
> balance?
>
No, but I have an irony meter here that I would let you have cheap.
Barely used. Hardly melted.
> Damaeus
Damaeus
unrestra...@hotmail.com posted:
> On Apr 6, 11:14 pm, Damaeus <no-m...@damaeus.yahoo.invalid> wrote:
> > Reading from news:talk.origins,
> > metspitzer <kilow...@charter.net> posted:
> >
> > > I have been watching Live Webcast of Origins Symposium at ASU.
> > > Lawrence Krauss just said that gravity pushes.
> >
> > Yes. That's because the universe is compressed by the big bang. It's
> > also why we can't fly. "The Fall" in the Garden of Eden was the
> > punishment of gravity on mankind. Once the universe finishes expanding,
> > we won't be forced to stay on the ground anymore.
>
> [...]
>
> OK, now you're just goofing on us, right?
>
> The universe, and therefore gravity, was in place about 14 billion
> years before humans existed.
Yeah, I know. I was just relating it in a story form. But I'm reminded
of a quote that said particle physics only works when we pretend gravity
doesn't exist. Well, if that's true, then maybe gravity doesn't exist. We
just pretend it does, or we've been tricked into believing it does.
http://www.superstringtheory.com/basics/basic3.html
> Under what conditions do you think there wouldn't be gravity on a
> planet? You seem to be suggesting that planetary gravity depends on
> the universe expanding.
No, I'm saying that we have gravity because the universe is not FINISHED
expanding. Look, if you can never reach infinity, then if you compress
infinity at all, it seems like it would be infinitely compressed. Or
maybe not. There may come a point at which it's no longer infinitely
compressed, but we begin to see evidence that its decompression is
accelerating. That period of acceleration would lead toward a full
expansion of the universe so that space-time fabric is not compressed and
that pushing effect of gravity is no longer possible.
This also works into my idea that the reason we age is because of this
same compression of space...that is accelerating its decompression.
I hate to sound new agey after claiming I'm not, but with 2012
approaching, and that being such a significant date for so many types of
prophecies around the world, I think of it as an interesting point to
consider in these times when the whole world economy is at a time of
readjusting, physics is trying to find their theory of everything, etc. It
just all seems to be coming together like a pattern to me.
Damaeus
Damaeus
unrestra...@hotmail.com posted:
> On Apr 8, 8:02 am, Damaeus <no-m...@damaeus.yahoo.invalid> wrote:
> > Reading from news:talk.origins,
> > Why is it that I can't just speak my mind, from my own experience (which
> > includes high school, and some college-level classes without being related
> > to fictional characters? I was probing to see if anybody else experiences
> > the same thing. It's part of me figuring out if it's /just/ me or if
> > other people go through the same thing. I'm self-diagnosing. :)
>
> The pull of a pool table - or a mountain - would be too small for a
> human to notice. Other factors, mostly psychological, would be
> stronger. Now, large masses - like mountains - can be detected by very
> precise instruments, but these effects cannot be noticed by humans.
>
> You're right in principle, but in practice - the effect is too small.
But if you have a belief that's strong enough in the gravitational effect
of a table, you might think of it as you round the corner and feel pulled
in that direction. When I experience this, it comes with an equally
balanced ability to counteract the effect with a rather dance-like grace
that prevents falling. I don't really know how to put it any other way.
But the point is, whether real or imagined, just thinking that a
gravitational field is around a table can make you fall toward it. It
might be the psychological factors you mention, but I dunno. I feel weird
in wide-open spaces, like I'm surrounded by a feeling of vertigo, almost a
feeling like something is trying to push me up off the ground. But inside
a room, I feel "pushed and pulled" from various directions depending on
the arrangement of items in the room. So I believe that we can sense
these gravitational fields. It's just that the instrumentation used by
science is a weak detector of what humans have a natural instinct to feel
if they are aware of it. It's an intelligent cycle, allowing you to
experience that of yourself you've discovered, when you want to.
Damaeus
Robert Carnegie
How about: your chair is pushing you through space? 'Cause if you
just obeyed gravity you'd be falling down.
I think because it's really spacetime, it probably can't really be
expressed in terms of space only. But try this - space is continually
sucked in by the Earth and swallowed. When you sit down, the chair
interrupts the fall that you.were falling together with your space.
Or think of a river (maybe a waterfall? perhaps I can leave that
out), and a boat floating in the river. The boat strikes a rock in
the middle of the river, so it stops relative to the rock, but in a
way it is now moving through the water, except that really it is the
water that is moving. The water is the space, the boat is you, the
rock is the chair.
Gravity is the effect of mass changing the definition of "straight
line" - "geodesic" in space nearby, and in theory out to the end of
the universe, but only at the speed of light. So in a sense, the
planets orbiting the Sun are moving along "straight lines" in
spacetime, and not being pulled around the Sun.
Damaeus
Garamond Lethe <cartogr...@gmail.com> posted:
> On Wed, 08 Apr 2009 10:04:08 -0500, Damaeus wrote:
>
> > Reading from news:talk.origins,
> > tgde...@earthlink.net posted:
> >
> >> Actually, the pushing has a bit more stature since you could argue
> >> proximate cause; we are obliged to conform to the space-time metric,
> >> and the causal relationship between the nature of the local space
> >> around the chair and the 'mass' of the earth is one step removed, and,
> >> to my mind, not completely clear.
> >>
> >> Of course, Alan Watts might not make that distinction....
> >
> > Well, I certainly do.
> >
> > Is there such a thing as an entropy meter that would monitor energy
> > balance?
>
> No
Well, that explains why we're not flying around in spaceships...partially.
>, but I have an irony meter here that I would let you have cheap.
> Barely used. Hardly melted.
o.o
Damaeus
tgde...@earthlink.net
The problem, as with the thread about curved path of light, is both
that we think metaphorically, in an attempt to relate these things to
our physical experience, and that different theories use different
metaphors or physical models, and people tend to mix them all together
inappropriately.
I was trying to say that *in the abstract*, 'being pushed' represents
the individual's POV, while 'pulling' might make sense from the
perspective of the 'mass' that is 'causing' the nature of the space-
time metric. Imperfect analogy: A fish trapped in a net feels the net
pushing on it, a human in the same situation would know that someone
was 'pulling' them because he could meta-perceive the situation.
If you change the situation, and change the metaphor to be less
abstract: Falling freely, you might well experience a tidal effect,
such that you would feel that you are being pulled.
And of course you can think of various physiological and psychological
outcomes in various real situations---if you are pressed up against a
rock by moving water, you may feel the pressure of the water more or
the 'reaction force' of the rock more, depending on the geometry.
-tg
Damaeus
Sapient Fridge <use_repl...@spamsights.org> posted:
> In message
> <4ab4c855-cb12-48e6...@z14g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
> Bill <spint...@hotmail.com> writes
> >On 7 Apr, 00:54, Ye Old One <use...@mcsuk.net> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 00:10:38 +0100, Sapient Fridge
> >> <use_reply_addr...@spamsights.org> enriched this group when s/he
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >In message <3v5lt4d0gmcmfpavjoch8dvrmbpc8cb...@4ax.com>, metspitzer
> >> ><kilow...@charter.net> writes
> >> >>I have been watching Live Webcast of Origins Symposium at ASU.
> >> >>Lawrence Krauss just said that gravity pushes.
> >>
> >> >>I saw a Universe show on the History channel and Michio Kaku said that
> >> >>space was actually pushing you into your chair.
> >>
> >> >>Who is right?
> >>
> >> >Wrong, the Earth sucks.
> >>
> >> Pity more women don't.
> >
> >Well, alive at your age that is.
> >
> >Youngest is 130. If you went with her, youd be locked up for
> >underage sex. LOOOOOL.
>
> Hmm, I see that I seem to be out of Ye Old Ones killfile now - so I'll
> take him out of mine.
Is that what happens? I figure once he gets through playing with me, I'll
probably end up in his kill file, too. People usually put into their kill
file those they cannot argue against anymore. They publicly announce that
the person they've been arguing with is going into the kill file so they
can get out of replying and use the "I never saw his messages" excuse.
Often people don't actually put the person in the kill file in the
newsreader, but in some mental ignore filter so what is said can still be
monitored.
Damaeus