Modern Grinches

[peter2...@gmail.com]

The Grinches described in the linked article specialize in decorations that
have what they deem to be a religious motif.

I do believe, by the way, that Kwanzaa
decorations would pass muster for any school or school board that follows their example.
So would rainbow flags...

https://washingtonstand.com/news/bah-humbug-pa-school-districts-warns-bus-drivers-against-christmas-decorations
Excerpts:
On Friday, just over a week before Christmas, the Wallingford-Swarthmore school district in Delaware County,
Pennsylvania, issued a memo to school bus drivers saying, “If you have decorated your bus with anything specific
to the Christmas Holiday or any other decorations relating to a specific religion, please remove them immediately.”

The memo concludes, “In addition, employees are instructed not to wear clothing related to Christmas
or any other religious holiday.” According to the memo, school district leadership
“has been receiving complaints from parents concerning District employees displaying ‘Christmas’ themed decorations
and/or wearing clothing of the same nature.”
A note adds that the policy is not specific to school bus drivers but “APPLIES TO ALL DISTRICT EMPLOYEES.”

...

Joseph Backholm, FRC’s senior fellow for Biblical Worldview, told TWS that the ban on Christmas decorations
is “an issue of people in leadership who always follow rather than lead.”
He said, “The school district apparently received a complaint from someone that a bus driver
was spreading too much Christmas cheer, and instead of telling that parent
they encourage every bus driver to be as festive as possible,
they decided it was their job to protect the emotionally fragile.”
Although “Christmas” is named explicitly in the memo, Backholm noted that the inclusion
of “any other religious holiday” was “certainly done on the advice of their lawyers,
because it would be illegal to just ban Christmas displays and clothing.”

...

According to Fox 29 Philadelphia, the school district clarified Friday night that their intent was “not clear”
and reversed the ban on holiday decorations and clothing,
emphasizing instead a need for bus drivers to create “an inclusive environment.”

“The parents who want to remove the decorations should spend a week on the bus to see what kind of environment
their children and the bus drivers experience daily,” Kilgannon said.
“Parents know that in many school districts bus discipline is nonexistent and enforcing any behavioral norm
is often punished — by just this kind of complaint. Taxpayers on the other hand
who have no kids in school have no idea that this kind of situation is funded by their generosity.”

[end of excerpts]


Peter Nyikos

[erik simpson]

Does that include Klingons?

[Mark Isaak]

On 12/19/23 1:50 PM, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:

Sounds like the War on Christmas waged by Republicans a few years ago to
make people angry enough to send them money.

--
Mark Isaak
"Wisdom begins when you discover the difference between 'That
doesn't make sense' and 'I don't understand.'" - Mary Doria Russell

[jillery]

Only if they're from Uranus.

--
To know less than we don't know is the nature of most knowledge

[peter2...@gmail.com]

I'm a bit puzzled by your comment to all this, Mark.

> Sounds like the War on Christmas waged by Republicans a few years ago to
> make people angry enough to send them money.

For one thing, didn't you mean "claimed to exist" rather than "waged"?

For another, did you not notice how the school district rescinded their policy?
Or do you wish they had NOT rescinded their policy?

For yet another: you seem to be big on the 2-party system. Don't you think libertarians care about
freedom of religious expression?


I'm not happy about the 2-party system at all.

Just one reminder for now, because I want to get an early start tomorrow.

On the day after the 2016 election, I made the following "joke" in talk.origins:

"I have some good news and some bad news.

"The good news is that Clinton lost.

"The bad news is that Trump won."

Surprisingly enough, Bob Casanova felt the same way.


Peter Nyikos

[MarkE]

Here's an Australian window in US politics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_America

A combination of news, gossip, and insightful analysis held together with humour and bemusement.

[MarkE]

Actually, are people outside Australia able to view this? https://www.abc.net.au/news/programs/planet-america

[peter2...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 12:22:14 AM UTC-5, MarkE wrote:
> On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 2:47:15 PM UTC+11, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 8:37:14 PM UTC-5, Mark Isaak wrote:
> > > On 12/19/23 1:50 PM, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > > The Grinches described in the linked article specialize in ["stealing"] decorations that
> > > > have what they deem to [have] a religious motif.

Or did you mean "imagined"?

Will you leave the crickets chirping again?

> > For another, did you not notice how the school district rescinded their policy?

<crickets>

> > Or do you wish they had NOT rescinded their policy?

<crickets>

> > For yet another: you seem to be big on the 2-party system. Don't you think libertarians care about
> > freedom of religious expression?

<crickets>

> >
> > I'm not happy about the 2-party system at all.
> >
> > Just one reminder for now, because I want to get an early start tomorrow.
> >
> > On the day after the 2016 election, I made the following "joke" in talk.origins:
> >
> > "I have some good news and some bad news.
> >
> > "The good news is that Clinton lost.
> >
> > "The bad news is that Trump won."
> >
> > Surprisingly enough, Bob Casanova felt the same way.
> >
> >
> > Peter Nyikos

A non sequitur by you follows.

> Here's an Australian window in US politics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_America
>
> A combination of news, gossip, and insightful analysis held together with humour and bemusement.

Did you find anything in the links that would give us Yanks a window
into the program? Enough at least to confirm the accuracy of the claims "insightful"
and "humour"?

The wiki article itself does not. MarkE, of all people, did give us some small clue
by linking us to synopses, but still inadequate to confirm the accuracy of those claims.


Peter Nyikos

[Mark Isaak]

No. The Republicans created the war out of nothing and were the only
significant actors in it.

> For another, did you not notice how the school district rescinded their policy?
> Or do you wish they had NOT rescinded their policy?

Only after I made my (admittedly hasty) remark.

> For yet another: you seem to be big on the 2-party system. Don't you think libertarians care about
> freedom of religious expression?
>
> I'm not happy about the 2-party system at all.

Nor am I. But third parties with any significant power cannot survive
without major constitutional changes, so we are stuck with two.

Of course, third parties *can* exist by taking over one of the two major
ones. We have seen that happen as Trump mostly eliminated the
Republican Party and replaced it with a fascist party (and no doubt will
complete the job if elected).

> Just one reminder for now, because I want to get an early start tomorrow.
>
> On the day after the 2016 election, I made the following "joke" in talk.origins:
>
> "I have some good news and some bad news.
>
> "The good news is that Clinton lost.
>
> "The bad news is that Trump won."

The ballot for the next election may say "Biden" and "Trump", but I
think it is really about whether American will be led by Harris or Putin.

[erik simpson]

The TRump-Russia connection has been pretty throughly discredited. IMO
there won't be any good news coming out of the next election. Least bad
is the best we can hope for.

[broger...@gmail.com]

Not so sure about that. I agree there's no evidence that got on the phone and conspired, but Putin clearly ordered a disinformation campaign designed to help Trump, even if it didn't make a definitive difference. Trump admires Putin, like he admires authoritarians generally, and Putin would benefit enormously if Trump got elected again and cut off military aid to Ukraine

[erik simpson]

That may be. In even event, this is seriously off-topic. If you're
familiar with the old undercomic "Odds Bodkins". Fred Bird announced
"politics is poopadoodle". I couldn't agree more.

[Mark Isaak]

I think it remains true that Putin is perhaps the only person that Trump
looks up to.

> IMO there won't be any good news coming out of the next election.  Least bad
> is the best we can hope for.

Agreed.

[Martin Harran]

On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 19:40:00 -0800, Mark Isaak
<specime...@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:


[...]

>The ballot for the next election may say "Biden" and "Trump", but I
>think it is really about whether American will be led by Harris or Putin.

Like many other external onlookers, I find myself totally bewildered
as to why the Democrats seem willing to hand the next presidency back
to Trump. Are they really so feeble that nobody is willing to tell an
81-year-old guy whom the public has already judged too old, "Fair
play, Joe, you've done your bit, now it's time to let someone else
have a go "?

[Mark Isaak]

Other Democrats have their own problems, either being perceived as way
too liberal or not having any name recognition.

Besides, Biden is only two years older than Trump and is probably in
better physical shape. If the Biden campaign is halfway competent (a
big if), age will not be a deciding issue.

[Martin Harran]

On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 14:31:11 -0800, Mark Isaak

<specime...@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:

>On 12/22/23 9:53 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>> On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 19:40:00 -0800, Mark Isaak
>> <specime...@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> The ballot for the next election may say "Biden" and "Trump", but I
>>> think it is really about whether American will be led by Harris or Putin.
>>
>> Like many other external onlookers, I find myself totally bewildered
>> as to why the Democrats seem willing to hand the next presidency back
>> to Trump. Are they really so feeble that nobody is willing to tell an
>> 81-year-old guy whom the public has already judged too old, "Fair
>> play, Joe, you've done your bit, now it's time to let someone else
>> have a go "?
>
>Other Democrats have their own problems, either being perceived as way
>too liberal or not having any name recognition.

In other words, they are too feeble.

>
>Besides, Biden is only two years older than Trump and is probably in
>better physical shape. If the Biden campaign is halfway competent

They seem a long way away from even *half* competent.

>big if), age will not be a deciding issue.

I don't know what news outlets you follow but the ones I read are
showing Trump now ahead of Biden in opinion polls with Biden's age a
major factor, if not the most important one.

[broger...@gmail.com]

The biggest assets the Democrats have are (1) Trump and (2) the Dobbs decision ending the constitutional right to abortion. Whether they are enough to outweigh the anti-majoritarian features of the US political system and the White resentment of Trump's base remains to be seen. Polls right now don't tell you all that much.

[*Hemidactylus*]

From reading stuff by Matthew MacWilliams and by Karen Stenner I am
dumfounded by the finding that a sizable (roughly 20-40%) chunk of
populations in the Western nations have deep set tendencies toward an
authoritarian mindset.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/11/capitol-insurrection-trump-authoritarianism-psychology-innate-fear-envy-change-diversity-populism/

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/09/23/trump-america-authoritarianism-420681

We cannot wish that tendency away. Trump taps into the well. Hopefully the
decision to keep Trump off the ballot in Colorado holds and inspires other
states.

[Ernest Major]

People tell me that only Republicans* answer the telephone nowadays, so
the polls represent a biased sample of the electorate.

* some hyperbole present
--
alias Ernest Major

[Martin Harran]

On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 04:08:40 -0800 (PST), "broger...@gmail.com"
<broger...@gmail.com> wrote:

They tell you that Biden has gone from ahead to behind and no reason
to think it is going to get any better - those two factors have been
therefor a while. Liz Cheney reckons that the US is sleepwalking into
dictatorship - seems to me that the Democrats are the ones sleeping
most soundly.

[broger...@gmail.com]

The Democrats are full of too much angst to sleep soundly, at least the ones I know, and the ones I hear on the radio. If you have a suggestion for how to improve the odds of beating Trump, there's a ton of Democratic strategists who'd love to hear from you.

[broger...@gmail.com]

Liz Cheney is directing her remarks to fellow Republicans who privately think Trump is a disaster but are unwilling to buck him or his base and just think that somehow he'll just be a typical conservative president. She knows that the Democrats are already wide awake to the dangers.

[Martin Harran]

On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 10:55:41 -0800 (PST), "broger...@gmail.com"
<broger...@gmail.com> wrote:

ISTM that the strategy is very simple - retire Biden and put forward
somebody fresher. If they really don't have someone fresher, then they
might as well pack up their tents and go home.

[Martin Harran]

On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 11:07:44 -0800 (PST), "broger...@gmail.com"
<broger...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yet those Democrats continue to sleepwalk. Thinking your candidate
will win because the other candidate is even worse and nobody rational
should vote for them is a dreadful strategy, especially when that
other candidate has already shown the capacity to draw ~50% of the
vote..

[broger...@gmail.com]

Happy to hear suggestions for somebody fresher. All difficult problems have simple, obvious answers, the problem is how rarely the simple obvious answer really works. Time will tell. Unfortunately, Trump-like authoritarianism seems to be having a day in Europe and Asia, too.

[Ernest Major]

I think it is more that they (the "fellow Republicans") think that the
leopard won't eat their faces. They ought to look at the targets of
Stalin's, Mao's and even Hitler's purges.

--
alias Ernest Major

[erik simpson]

Stalin, Mao and Hitler? Even calling Trump "dictatorial" is a reach
compared to many state governors from both parties who pushed "mandates"
on their populations over the last few years. "Guidance" indeed. I
don't like Trump either, but over-characterizing him plays into his story.

[*Hemidactylus*]

I try not to use the label fascist as that seems confined to a specific
time and place. But Trump is surely authoritarian in demeanor and pushes
the right buttons for those authoritarians who support him. A mark of
proper conservatism is seen with people I otherwise strongly disagree with—
Liz and Darth Cheney, George Will, Bill Kristol— drawing a line in the sand
while modern Leftist tankies abandon Biden.

The mandates did exhibit a form of facultative or emergency measure
authoritarianism. Public health safety seems to me to take precedence over
Braveheart freedom. So yeah I guess that makes me a bit flawed. But now
with vaccines and previous infections conferring immunity to strains that
may be less fatal, such temporary measures are no longer needed IMO.

It is when the Schmittian exception is due to imagined threats from
migrants and domestic minorities who are considered poison, vermin,
pathogens etc when the obligate authoritarianism of the demagogue becomes
salient. Guardrails of the US system curtailed the dictatorship in the 1st
term. Will they remain effective in the potential 2nd. Project 2025 seems
far more ominous than a vaccine or mask mandate enacted as an emergency
public health measure to reduce death and misery. Red Caesarism and looming
incremental theocracy are in our midst as the shorter term threat from
COVID has receded a bit. The imaginary “deep state” bogey will be leveraged
to wipe out the civil service and its anti-Trump disloyalty.

Now I will grant that the coercive aspect of the mandates resulted in a
collective reactance that itself may have activated nascent authoritarian
tendencies among predisposed demographics. Elsethread I cited MacWilliams
and Stenner on the authoritarian bent which has become far more
sophisticated than the days of Adorno’s and Fromm’s Frankfurt screeds.
MacWiiliams does quote Fromm a bit in his book _On Fascism_.

[*Hemidactylus*]

As I said elsethread I was dumfounded by research identifying
authoritarianism as a putatively heritable trait. Yet in my response to the
global and personally salient crisis of COVID I recognize an authoritarian
tendency in myself. I am rabidly intolerant of antivaxxers to the point of
advocating coercive measures. Reading about motivational interviewing and
“vaccine whisperers” in Adam Grant’s *Think Again* has me wondering about
alternative approaches that effectively put the ball in the court of the
autonomous individual.

I recognize myself though in the label “crisis-related authoritarianism”
and don’t flinch at that at all:

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpos.2022.929991/full

I still think my contingent authoritarianism differs greatly from that of
the MAGA crowd. For one the migrant crisis is partly a result of our cold
war foreign policy that damaged Central American countries from which
people are migrating. We should acknowledge that. These people are not
pathogens or poisons to the US body politic. We were the noxious ones to
their countries as were the Soviets.

[*Hemidactylus*]

Though I am myself hesitant as to say Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays to
someone as I don’t know how they will take offense to either because
reasons, being wished a Merry Christmas is not offensive to me. People
might celebrate Afrocentric Kwanzaa or Hanukkah. The latter seems verboten
due to heavy handed Israeli reaction to unforgivable atrocities committed
by the jihadist terrorist organization Hamas that Bibi benefitted from
because they weren’t Abbas. Yeah. Anyone who opposes overt celebrations of
Kwanzaa or Hanukkah should go fuck themselves. And Xmas is fine too
commercial and pagan as it is. My new favorite Christmas movie is Fatman
starring Mel Gibson. Sadly he self-destructed by drunken antisemitism as he
made good movies. Fatman is ridiculous though no worse than A Wonderful
Life or A Christmas Story. Woodland Critter Christmas is the best story:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodland_Critter_Christmas

You are probably on your break from TO so belated Merry Christmas from an
atheist!

[jillery]

On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 03:10:28 +0000, *Hemidactylus*
<ecph...@allspamis.invalid> wrote:

>broger...@gmail.com <broger...@gmail.com> wrote:

"Authoritarian" is inadequate to describe the willful arrogance of
Trump and the willful stupidity of Christian Nationalist/MAGA hats.

--
To know less than we don't know is the nature of most knowledge

[Martin Harran]

On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 15:32:34 -0800, erik simpson
<eastsi...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 12/23/23 2:45 PM, Ernest Major wrote:
>> On 23/12/2023 19:07, broger...@gmail.com wrote:

Evils like those committed by Stalin, Mao and Hitler don't come on day
one, they come later. The first objective for an intending dictator is
to consolidate their authority over every aspect of life. It is
abundantly clear that Trump intends to do just that by getting rid of
virtually everybody in public service who disagrees with him or
opposes him in any way - that he will "root out the communists,
Marxists, fascists and the radical left thugs that live like vermin
within the confines of our country that lie and steal and cheat on
elections."

[Martin Harran]

On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 13:09:38 -0800 (PST), "broger...@gmail.com"
<broger...@gmail.com> wrote:

If the Democrats need me to identify a better candidate than Biden
then they are in an even worse state than I thought.

[broger...@gmail.com]

Well, if I could install anyone I wanted for president, Biden wouldn't be my choice, but here's the argument for not getting rid of Biden

1. Incumbency is a big advantage
2. Incumbent presidents who get a significant primary challenge are always weakened by it.
3. Biden has beat Trump once already - arguably several times if you count all the intervening off-year elections where Trump's MAGA picks or propositions got beaten.
4. Of course nobody likes polls showing that their guy is behind, but you may remember that even up to the 2022 election, the predictions were for a massive red wave in Congress, and in fact the Republicans barely got control of the house and lost net one seat in the Senate.
5. Biden has made a career of being underestimated - in fact I think he's got a lot done given divided control of Congress.
5. The Dobbs decision led to big turnouts in favor of reproductive rights even in very red states; the Democrats will clearly tap into that.
6. Changing candidates would do nothing to change the anti-majoritarian political system we unfortunately have (Electoral College and structure of the Senate), nor would it do anything to damp down the nativist, White resentment and anger that Trump has whipped up and capitalized on. In fact if the sort of more progressive candidate I would prefer got nominated, it would be even harder to beat Trump.

Still, having the fate of the country rest on an 81 year old guy with a tendency to gaffe when he extemporizes (though not as readily as Trump) and a limited amount of energy makes me nervous as hell.

After the election, if I'm wrong, you can tell me you told me so, but I won't be here anymore once Google Groups throws in the towel in February.

[*Hemidactylus*]

Ughh! I could find little to object to until that last part. It might not
be worth the hassle to you in setting up an alternative route to usenet
once GG is gone, but many of us will surely miss your contributions here. I
hope you consider that.

[Martin Harran]

On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 03:56:42 -0800 (PST), "broger...@gmail.com"
<broger...@gmail.com> wrote:


[...]

>After the election, if I'm wrong, you can tell me you told me so, but I won't be here anymore once Google Groups throws in the towel in February.

I'm really sorry to hear that as I've found our exchanges generally
stimulating. We are far apart on many issues, but I like to think that
we have been able to express our disagreements in a rational way and
without the rancour that pervades so many discussions here.

[erik simpson]

Don't dispair of that. Other newsreaders are readily available. THis
group will be poorer without you.

[Mark Isaak]

The term "Nazi" is specific to time and place. "Fascist" is the generic
term, and Trump's comments, especially about his political enemies and
about immigrants, have made it quite clear that he is full-out fascist.

[jillery]

On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 03:56:42 -0800 (PST), "broger...@gmail.com"
<broger...@gmail.com> wrote:

>After the election, if I'm wrong, you can tell me you told me so, but I won't be here anymore once Google Groups throws in the towel in February.

Say it ain't so, Joe.

[jillery]

On Wed, 20 Dec 2023 21:30:16 -0800 (PST), MarkE <me22...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 4:22:14?PM UTC+11, MarkE wrote:
>> On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 2:47:15?PM UTC+11, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 8:37:14?PM UTC-5, Mark Isaak wrote:

>> > I'm a bit puzzled by your comment to all this, Mark.
>> > > Sounds like the War on Christmas waged by Republicans a few years ago to
>> > > make people angry enough to send them money.
>> > For one thing, didn't you mean "claimed to exist" rather than "waged"?
>> >
>> > For another, did you not notice how the school district rescinded their policy?
>> > Or do you wish they had NOT rescinded their policy?
>> >
>> > For yet another: you seem to be big on the 2-party system. Don't you think libertarians care about
>> > freedom of religious expression?
>> >
>> >
>> > I'm not happy about the 2-party system at all.
>> >
>> > Just one reminder for now, because I want to get an early start tomorrow.
>> >
>> > On the day after the 2016 election, I made the following "joke" in talk.origins:
>> >
>> > "I have some good news and some bad news.
>> >
>> > "The good news is that Clinton lost.
>> >
>> > "The bad news is that Trump won."
>> >
>> > Surprisingly enough, Bob Casanova felt the same way.
>> >
>> >
>> > Peter Nyikos
>> Here's an Australian window in US politics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_America
>>
>> A combination of news, gossip, and insightful analysis held together with humour and bemusement.
>
>Actually, are people outside Australia able to view this? https://www.abc.net.au/news/programs/planet-america


It''s a good program, making insightful points and asking insightful
questions. If only all U.S. news programs were as relevant.

[Ron Dean]

> Sounds like the War on Christmas waged by Republicans a few years ago to
> make people angry enough to send them money.
>

Why would anyone send money to an organization which makes them angry?
That comment makes absolute _no_ sense!

[jillery]

Since you asked:

<https://apnews.com/article/election-2024-trump-republicans-fundraising-a07e78b814376d635f53ea17aa704d1d>

<http://tinyurl.com/5582jjv2>

You're welcome.

>That comment makes absolute _no_ sense!

You're in no position to criticize.

[Martin Harran]

On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 01:21:43 -0500, Ron Dean
<rondean...@gmail.com> wrote:

Mark's remark wasn't particularly clear, he was talking about
Republicans fighting against what they saw as anti-religion people
waging "War on Christmas".

[Mark Isaak]

On the contrary, anger is a great motivator. If I get you angry at X,
and then say I'm angry to and want to do something about it, you are
likely to support me and, if I say we need money to address X, to give
money. Political parties do that routinely. Sometimes they have an
issue which already makes people mad, but one year the Republicans did
not any anything compelling to be justifiably angry at, so they invented
an issue: a war on Christmas supposedly being waged by the liberals. In
fact, though, the only battles in that "war" were instigated by Republicans.

[Martin Harran]

On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 13:30:08 +0000, Martin Harran
<martin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Meant to include link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_controversies#United_States

[Ron Dean]

And why not? I have not and will not give any funds to Trump. He would
be a disaster if he happens to wins.

[Ron Dean]

As you put it now, it does make sense.

[Ron Dean]

Okay, that makes sense.

[jillery]

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 13:30:59 -0500, Ron Dean

Since you asked, your latest reply to Isaak shows you understand that
your comment above makes "absolute _no_ sense!" You're welcome.

>I have not and will not give any funds to Trump. He would
>be a disaster if he happens to wins.

<WHOOSH>

[Ron Dean]

I didn't write that! I learned who wrote it on my computer. It got him
fired.
I hope Trump wins. He was the best president the US ever had. And I
considered myself a democrat for decades.
Cost of living under Biden has doubled and some things tripled. And the
world is a much, much more dangerous place because of this senile old
man, who hardly knows who is, or where he is. or what he is.
He deserted 100s of American families in Afghanistan and Democrats don't
care if they are dead or alive he has made no attempt to have then
freed, again he don't know or don't care. Furthermore, due to his abrupt
withdrawal from Afghanistan he left billions of dollars in military
weapons in the hands of these terrorist.
This is far from the total list of this administration's failures.
https://www.newsweek.com/joe-bidens-growing-list-failures-opinion-1654002

If he wins in 2924, I fear the US will collapse, like the great
civilizations in history.

[broger...@gmail.com]

Ah, come on. You can't fire your kids.

> I hope Trump wins. He was the best president the US ever had. And I
> considered myself a democrat for decades.
> Cost of living under Biden has doubled and some things tripled. And the
> world is a much, much more dangerous place because of this senile old
> man, who hardly knows who is, or where he is. or what he is.
> He deserted 100s of American families in Afghanistan and Democrats don't
> care if they are dead or alive he has made no attempt to have then
> freed, again he don't know or don't care. Furthermore, due to his abrupt
> withdrawal from Afghanistan he left billions of dollars in military
> weapons in the hands of these terrorist.
> This is far from the total list of this administration's failures.
> https://www.newsweek.com/joe-bidens-growing-list-failures-opinion-1654002
>
> If he wins in 2924, I fear the US will collapse, like the great
> civilizations in history.

If he wins in 2924, he'll have beat George Burns.

[Lawyer Daggett]

What about Mel Brooks?
But I'm flabbergasted he did his detective work and got somebody fired between Dec. 30 - 31.
It's almost hard to believe.

[broger...@gmail.com]

It's almost hard to believe a semi-retired contractor was working on the Saturday after Christmas, and that another employee had access to his computer. Far more likely it was a younger family member visiting for Christmas.

[jillery]

On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 14:57:31 -0500, Ron Dean

A doppelganger has taken over R.Dean's account. That explains a lot.

[Ernest Major]

On 31/12/2023 20:33, broger...@gmail.com wrote:
>> I didn't write that! I learned who wrote it on my computer. It got him
>> fired.
> Ah, come on. You can't fire your kids.

The religious right has a reputation for "firing" their kids, if the
kids fail to conform.

Anyway, if Ron Dean is who he says he is, it would be more likely to be
his grandkids.

--
alias Ernest Major

[Burkhard]

Christmas, what is that Christmas you are talking
about - do you mean Christ-tide by any chance?;o)

And we were so, so close winning the war against Christmas!
Back in 1640 that is, when Christmas celebrations were prohibited
in England by an Act of Parliament. And when this did not work,
closing your business on the 25th became a criminal offence in 1656.

Verily, isn't "luxurious disorderly Christmas-keeping a meere sinfull,
wicked unchristian pastimes, vanities, cultures and disguises’?

To ‘decke up Houses with Laurell, Yuie and green boughes should be
forbidden, as does any going out to entertainment, which is
‘a voluptuous and base servilitie to our filthie carnal lusts"
Indeed, should people of other faiths observe our Bacchanalian
Christmas extravagancies they would ‘thinke our Saviour to be a
glutton, an Epicure, a wine-bibber … a God of all dissolutenesse,
drunkennesse and disorder’!!!!

In the Bible there is nothing about feasting, carousing, gambling or
heathenish Christmas pastimes’; rather, ‘Glory be to God on high, on
earth peace, good will towards men … is the Angels’, the Shepherds’ only
Christmas Caroll’, which the Virgin Mary ‘hath prefaced with this
celestiall hymne of prayse, My soule doth magnifie the Lord…’

So I hope you abstained from all ‘riotous grand-Christmasses’
and instead to ‘cordially meditated on the Scriptures"
preferably alone and in an unheated home

[erik simpson]

Personally, I celebrated everybody's holiday I could think of, all
God(s) living or dead with carousing, wine-bibbing, etc. But no
singing. The living Gods would strike me dead. Happy New Year all!

[Ernest Major]

I looked to see if there was any informative press reporting on this
event, but all I found was the same outrage peddling. Unless something
more than Christmas decoration was involved, such as plastering the bus
windows with nativity scenes or icons of the Virgin, crossing the line
into proselytisation, I would think the most likely complainant would be
a Christian from one of the sects that reject the Christmas festivities
as pagan.

--
alias Ernest Major

[Mark Isaak]

On 1/2/24 9:22 AM, Burkhard wrote:

There was a time (1659) when Christmas was officially banned in the
American colonies, too, specifically in Massachusetts. By the Puritans.

But I promise to abstain from all Christmas celebrations for at least
the next ten months.

[erik simpson]

Bear i mind the proscription of Christmas elebrations Burkhard mentions
came when Cromwell was Lord Protector of the Realm. Cromwell was as
Puritan as they come, and apparently no sense of humor. The New England
colonists were cut from the same cloth. Miserable killjoys. It was Ben
Franklin, the great theologian who proposed that beer was proof that God
loves us and wants us to be happy.

[Burkhard]

Not at all implausible, I'd say. The really strange thing, from a
history of ideas perspective, is that the English parliament outlawed
Christmas because it was seen as either "too papist" or "too pagan"
(without necessarily distinguishing too much between these).

But historically (and at that time, that meant less than a century ago)
it had been Martin Luther who had more or less invented the modern
idea of Christmas, at least in northern and Central Europe. Prior to that,
the main day of Festivities had been December 6th, St Nicolaus day,
the 25th was pretty much irrelevant.

The early church didn't celebrate it either, indeed, there was widespread
disagreement regarding the date - March 28, April 2, April 19,
May 20, November 17 all had some backing by early patristic writers,
and in some Christian denominations it's still today the 6.1. And
unlike the question of when to date Easter, where different dates lead to schisms and
persecution, nobody got their hackles up over the birthday. It was deemed
theologically irrelevant.

Luther now was concerned over what he saw as "pagan" St.Nicolaus
celebrations, the festivities and the gift giving in particular, so he promoted
the 25th as an alternative, to refocus from a Saint to the person of Christ.

Confused? You will be, because after that it gets really complicated: In
Luther's admonitions, the focus on St Nicholas is replaced to
one on the "Heiliger Christ" (Holy Christ), but for him there was no link to Jesus
as a baby, and definitely no nativity plays etc. His "Heilige Christ"
however transmogrified quickly into two competing version,
the "Christkind" (Christmas child - not Christ, but a sort of gift
bringing angel) and the "Weihnachtsmann" (Christmas man) -
the latter dominating Northern and Eastern Germany.

And then finally in the 19th century, the Victorians merge back the
Weihnachtsman with the original St Nicolaus celebrations, giving
us Santa Claus etc

So when the English Parliament started its war against Christmas
out of anti-catholic sentiment, they really attacked a practice
that owed more to Luther than the Pope. As another historical
oddity, while in England these laws were soon revoked, their cultural
impact remained strongest outside England, in Scotland. As recent as
the 1980s and early 90s, Christmas was really not a "thing" up here,
people saved up their energy and money for Hogmany. It is mainly a
result of the pressures of global capitalism and its advertising budgets
that that has changed by now.

[Ernest Major]

I've just stumbled on this video about The War on Christmas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9hDwIfu2pY
--
alias Ernest Major

[Martin Harran]

On Tue, 2 Jan 2024 09:22:15 -0800 (PST), Burkhard <b.sc...@ed.ac.uk>
wrote:

Happy New Year to you too, Ebeneezer ;)

[Martin Harran]

On Tue, 2 Jan 2024 19:36:38 +0000, Ernest Major
<{$to$}@meden.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 02/01/2024 17:22, Burkhard wrote:

IME, I have never seen any Muslim or Jewish or Hindu or other
religious leader complaining about Christmas celebrations being
offensive. What I have seen are people who take it upon themselves to
decide that followers of non-Christian religions *should* take
offence.

[broger...@gmail.com]

.....

> IME, I have never seen any Muslim or Jewish or Hindu or other
> religious leader complaining about Christmas celebrations being
> offensive. What I have seen are people who take it upon themselves to
> decide that followers of non-Christian religions *should* take
> offence.

When I lived in Indonesia (2005-2010) there was a significant disagreement among Muslim leaders whether it was sinful for a Muslim to greet a Christian by saying "Merry Christmas." The more Saudi-influenced fundamentalists refused to allow that greeting, the more traditionally Javanese Muslims had no problem with it.

[Burkhard]

Well, William Prynne whom I cited is arguably long dead, and his killjoy
tendencies were of course not limited to Christmas.
Among (many/most) other things, he hated in particular:

effeminate mixt Dancing, Dicing, Stage-playes, lascivious Pictures, wanton Fashions,
Face-painting, Health-drinking, Long haire, Love-lockes, Periwigs, womens curling,
pouldring and cutting of their haire, Bone-fires, New-yeares-gifts, May-games, amorous
Pastoralls, lascivious effeminate Musicke, excessive laughter, luxurious disorderly
Christmas-keeping [and] Mummeries.

(from context I assume that "womans curling" refers to curled hair, rather than the
roarin' game of curling)

But that aside, as I said, as late as the 1980s/90s, it was not a big thing in
Scotland, and yes, unfortunately, the reason was that any attempt to expand
the celebrations was met with a hostile "papist nonsense" from the usual
suspects, the kind that goes to certain forms of marches....

[Martin Harran]

On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 04:08:40 -0800 (PST), "broger...@gmail.com"
<broger...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, December 23, 2023 at 5:32:18?AM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 14:31:11 -0800, Mark Isaak
>> <specime...@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 12/22/23 9:53 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 19:40:00 -0800, Mark Isaak
>> >> <specime...@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> [...]
>> >>
>> >>> The ballot for the next election may say "Biden" and "Trump", but I
>> >>> think it is really about whether American will be led by Harris or Putin.
>> >>
>> >> Like many other external onlookers, I find myself totally bewildered
>> >> as to why the Democrats seem willing to hand the next presidency back
>> >> to Trump. Are they really so feeble that nobody is willing to tell an
>> >> 81-year-old guy whom the public has already judged too old, "Fair
>> >> play, Joe, you've done your bit, now it's time to let someone else
>> >> have a go "?
>> >
>> >Other Democrats have their own problems, either being perceived as way
>> >too liberal or not having any name recognition.
>> In other words, they are too feeble.
>> >
>> >Besides, Biden is only two years older than Trump and is probably in
>> >better physical shape. If the Biden campaign is halfway competent
>> They seem a long way away from even *half* competent.
>> >big if), age will not be a deciding issue.
>> I don't know what news outlets you follow but the ones I read are
>> showing Trump now ahead of Biden in opinion polls with Biden's age a
>> major factor, if not the most important one.
>
>The biggest assets the Democrats have are (1) Trump and (2) the Dobbs decision ending the constitutional right to abortion. Whether they are enough to outweigh the anti-majoritarian features of the US political system and the White resentment of Trump's base remains to be seen. Polls right now don't tell you all that much.

Just to reinforce that I am not the only onlooker perturbed by the
behaviour of the Democrats, from the leader in this week's Economist
journal:

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/01/04/the-man-supposed-to-stop-donald-trump-is-an-unpopular-81-year-old

<quote>

THE MAN SUPPOSED TO STOP DONALD TRUMP IS AN UNPOPULAR 81-YEAR-OLD

In failing to look past Joe Biden, Democrats have shown cowardice and
complacency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

American politics is paralysed by a contradiction as big as the Grand
Canyon. Democrats rage about how re-electing Donald Trump would doom
their country's democracy. And yet, in deciding who to put up against
him in November's election, the party looks as if it will meekly
submit to the candidacy of an 81-year-old with the worst approval
rating of any modern president at this stage in his term. How did it
come to this?

Joe Biden's net approval rating stands at minus 16 points. Mr Trump,
leading polls in the swing states where the election will be decided,
is a coin-toss away from a second presidential win. Even if you do not
see Mr Trump as a potential dictator, that is an alarming prospect. A
substantial share of Democrats would rather Mr Biden did not run. But
instead of either challenging him or knuckling down to support his
campaign, they have instead taken to muttering glassy-eyed about the
mess they are in.

</quote>

[Martin Harran]

On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 02:55:03 -0800 (PST), "broger...@gmail.com"
<broger...@gmail.com> wrote:

I can understand that but did they take offence at Christians greeting
them with 'Merry Christmas'?

[broger...@gmail.com]

Yes.

[broger...@gmail.com]

I read the same articles you do.

[Martin Harran]

On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 03:17:09 -0800 (PST), Burkhard <b.sc...@ed.ac.uk>
wrote:

Scotland is a world of its own. The only time I have ever been
directly asked about my religion/political leanings in Norther Ireland
was is a pub in Kilwinning. Myself and a couple of other NI people
somehow got into conversation with some local with a few pints in him.
He looked me straight in the face and asked me "Do ye walk". I knew
rightly what he was on about but pretended that I didn't and told him
yes I enjoyed a good walk on a nice day but he kept persisting in
asking me "But do ye WALK?"

Another true story. A good friend of mine was a massive Rangers fan
and attended all their home matches. He always went to the terrace as
he enjoyed the to-and-fro that went on there. Mo Johnston was the
first Catholic to play for Glasgow Rangers and my friend was at the
first match he played in. Two guys in front of him were arguing the
rights and wrongs of this. The first guy was pretty laid back about
it, saw no harm in it. The second guy was vociferously arguing against
it, insisting that it was ridiculous for a good Protestant team like
Rangers to have a Catholic playing for them. Eventually the first guy
said in exasperation: "What are you Complaining about anyway, aren't
you married to a Catholic?" The second guy replied "So what? That
doesn't mean I have to come here every Saturday to pay to watch 11 of
them playing!"

[Lawyer Daggett]

On Friday, January 5, 2024 at 6:37:30 AM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 04:08:40 -0800 (PST), "broger...@gmail.com"
> <broger...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, December 23, 2023 at 5:32:18?AM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:

. . .

> https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/01/04/the-man-supposed-to-stop-donald-trump-is-an-unpopular-81-year-old
>
> <quote>
>
> THE MAN SUPPOSED TO STOP DONALD TRUMP IS AN UNPOPULAR 81-YEAR-OLD
>
> In failing to look past Joe Biden, Democrats have shown cowardice and
> complacency.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do think much of the analysis is missing a key reason that the Dems have kept with Biden,
and indeed the reason they went with him in the first place. It's because he's milquetoast.
The reasoning goes this way. Trump seems to function politically by stirring up fear and anger,
in, shall we call them vulnerable subsets of the electorate. He harvests those who are perpetually
angry, those with oppositional defiant disorder, and I'll spare you the list from Blazing Saddles.
He points to his opponent and they get labeled with all sorts of nasties. Paradoxically, they get
labeled both as weak and a threat. This was quite effective against Hillary as it tagged unto many
decades of propaganda. But 'Uncle Joe' just can't seem to appear threatening.

This tends to take the steam out of Trump's sails for that final suite of voters he needs. For these
purposes, we'll call them swing voters but specifically the ones who don't actually like being afraid
and angry all the time. It isn't healthy.

He's tapped into those who are addicted to it, and those who are enjoying him giving them an excuse
to let their bigotry out, and those are a lost cause, even when they acknowledge he's a dangerous idiot.

So many within the Democratic Party feel that for the specific case of Trump, one needs a cooler.
Someone who takes down the temperature, extinguishes the fire. That was Biden.

But in the last 4 years, the GOP machine has been working hard to recast Biden as a horrible threat.
To some extent it's worked and you can hear people both talking about how weak and ineffective
he is while simultaneously being a threat. All through odd rumors of the Biden Crime Family and
strange inventions.

The problem is, if the Dems anointed some leader to replace him, and I frankly don't know who
that would be, it would in some sense need to be a charismatic person who would almost
certainly be a better target for the rage manufacturing machine of the GOP.

Of course there's not a hint of policy in this discussion, which ought to smell rotten to any
sensible thinking person, but policy doesn't win elections.

So the Dems are stuck, just like the GQP is stuck with Trump. And few are very happy about their
choices, except for the very worst of people who like the worst of Trump.

[zen cycle]

On 1/5/2024 8:35 AM, Lawyer Daggett wrote:
> few are very happy about their
> choices, except for the very worst of people who like the worst of Trump.

Trump gave raging assholes license to be raging assholes.

[zen cycle]

On 1/3/2024 10:40 AM, Mark Isaak wrote:
>
>
> There was a time (1659) when Christmas was officially banned in the
> American colonies, too, specifically in Massachusetts.  By the Puritans.
>
> But I promise to abstain from all Christmas celebrations for at least
> the next ten months.
>

Which christian holiday would that be? There are at least a dozen +/- a
couple of weeks of november 30 (depending on sectarian preference)

[*Hemidactylus*]

Isn’t the latest rage in how Trump shits himself regularly and offends the
nostrils of those around him? The alleged fart that offended Feinstein:
https://youtu.be/rjrfOcPDKfs?si=nLsHm2vGffCDeYBx

Farts are funny. Full stop.

[jillery]

It might have initiated her dementia.

>Farts are funny. Full stop.

<https://www.youtube.com/shorts/4BjbkaLXKXo>

[Skunk Stripe Skivvies]

On Sat, 06 Jan 2024 07:19:48 +0000

You might enjoy a view of fresh bacon-strip underwear.

The effluvium of Trump derangement syndrome smells farty.

[Martin Harran]

On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 05:35:38 -0800 (PST), Lawyer Daggett
<j.nobel...@gmail.com> wrote:

Meanwhile, the Big Lie continues to not just survive but thrive:

"Regarding Jan. 6 itself, 28 percent say former president Donald Trump
bears no responsibility, 21 percent say the people who stormed the
Capitol were "mostly peaceful" and 25 percent say the FBI probably or
definitely instigated the attack."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/01/05/jan6-trump-insurrection-2024-election/

[Martin Harran]

On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 03:51:46 -0800 (PST), "broger...@gmail.com"
<broger...@gmail.com> wrote:

That surprises me but then again, I would never wish Merry Christmas
to a Muslim or a Jew or a Hindu nor, I think, would any Christians I
know.

[Nando Ronteltap]

It's not particularly about Biden, although he is a piece of shit. It's just that academic people in general have turned towards socialism, and so there is a large percentage of the population in the USA who are each individually, a piece of shit. And this limits the possiblities for good times very much, regardless of who is in charge. But especially it neccessarily means that the bureaucracy will be corrupted, because the academic people go into the bureaucracy.

Cheating at elections, censorship, political persecution, corruption, total policy failure, etc. it is just the same shit what socialists do in every country, USA socialists aren't special. There is nothing recognizably American, in the sense of the American spirit, or allegiance to the constitution, about American socialists. Any academic piece of shit, ridicules the constitution of the USA as ancient nonsense, far below their superior socialist ideas. And the spirit of any socialist is marked by the absence of any spirit. Because socialists do not believe in either God the holy spirit, or the ordinary human spirit, which they just regard as unscientific nonsense.

If Trump wins the presidency, then it is highly likely that this will result in an increase of nazism, especially at universities. Because the loony left wing socialists there, can just change to loony right wing socialists. Anybody can see with the Palestine situation, that these people don't really have any problem to be anti-semites. They don't really have any problem to be racists. If some big city in the USA collapses under immigration, or maybe if south africa collapses, then they can just make up a story to support racism, and be nazis. The path from left wing socialism, to right wing socialism, is easy, as China has shown. Where they now have a policy of ethnocentric nationalism, genocidal policies against Ugyur and Tibetan, and the intellectuals follow an actual dead nazi inspirator named Schmitt.


Op vrijdag 5 januari 2024 om 14:37:30 UTC+1 schreef Lawyer Daggett:

[Mark Isaak]

I might observe (as they go past) the Christian holidays of Halloween
and the Fourth of July, along with the pagan holiday Easter and the New
Age holiday Thanksgiving. I will mostly ignore the saint's days (and how
did a groundhog get sainted, anyway?).

The only holiday I plant actually to celebrate is my own birthday.