broger...@gmail.com wrote:
> Ron Dean recently posted....
>
> "I watched this video entitled Debunking the "Fine Tuning Argument" by
> Sean Carroll referenced twice.
>
>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR79HDEf9k8
>
> Carroll's argument from the beginning.
> His video entitled "Debunking the 'Fine Tuning' Argument", he states
> "You have phenomena; you have parameters of particle physics and
> cosmology." Then he says "I am by no means, convinced that there is
> a fine tuning problem". And then he continues, "it is certainly true
> that if you changed the parameters of nature, our local conditions that
> we observe around us would change by a lot. "Sadly, we just don't know
> whether if life could exist if conditions of the universe were different
> see the universe that we see". But the fine tuning argument is not about
> life, but rather life as we _know_ it.
>
Two problems: 1) "Life as _we_know_it_. There is absolutely no
justification for assuming that there is any life, other than that which
we do know about. And certainly no _reason_ for such an
assumption - other than as an escape!
2) There is at leas 10 different constants that had to be perfectly
balanced and "fine tuned" for the universe itself to come about.
Consequently, life, is solely conditioned upon our universe existing.
Was this not from your mind, and I thought of this was by far the best
explanation of the fine tuned argument I ever come across. Thank you!
>>
>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOmdVVgtLLs"
>
> Other's have addressed other issues with Ron's argument. Here's one that I think is also important.
>
> You (Ron) complain that Carroll's image of God is of an irrational God, because Carroll claimed that God need not tweak anything, He could make life survive regardless of any physical constants simply by the force of His omnipotence.
>
> And yet....that is exactly the sort of God you imagine, too.
>
Well that's not quite right. Whether or not he could have been
irrational and illogical the designer (God) chose not to do so, but
rather to make the universe rational, logical and constant, if not then
things would be random, inconsistent and rarely the same from time to
time. In fact 2+2 could equal 4 then 14 the 9. Under such circumstances,
he of any intelligent being would be at a loss to understand anything.
The fact so much of the universal characteristics, laws,
dimensionsdistances etc is described mathematically is final proof of
it's rationality.
You imagine, on the one hand, a God who was sufficiently intelligent and
powerful, and interested in making the universe rational, that He
designed natural laws and exquisitely precisely fine tuned physical
constants, so as to allow life to survive in the universe without His
having to violate natural physical laws to make it happen. In other
words, He designed everything so it would support life on its own, just
following the orderly, rational consequence of the physical laws God
designed.
>
> But on the other hand, you yourself suggest that God did not get it quite right. In order to make life get started in the first place, He has to intervene by main force because he failed to design natural laws and tune physical constants such that life could emerge without His irrationally interfering in the natural consequences of the physical laws He designed. Then again, according to you, He had to intervene many times in the history of life on earth, because although he designed a system of mutation and natural selection that could produce new species, he could not design a system that would produce new orders, families and phyla.
>There is a world of difference between inorganic, lifeless matter and
living things - life. Life is not
just matter; life is also information, in that life is utterly and
totally dependent upon and governed by _information_. The origin of
information?? If the present is the key to the past, then today _minds_
is the sole origin of information. Mind is the one and only proven and
viable source of information. But if it's your paradigm that there
_is_no_ God, then there is only one single alternative, it's essential
that information came from hazardous, random, unguided, mindless natural
chemical process. There is no solid or hard empirical evidence that
information could have happened in this manner. But, information does
exist, which is contained in DNA and this implies
mind. An mind would contemplate that the countless copying and
reproduction, over time, would incur mistakes such copying errors,
omissions, distortions etc, which would lead to destruction, and
disaster. So a mind would conceive planning design and implement
corrective methods for such
errors and mutations. And this is exactly what did happen, it's called
DNA Proofreading and repair
https://www.khanacademy.org/science/biology/dna-as-the-genetic-material/dna-replication/a/dna-proofreading-and-repair
It's not my purpose to convince anyone to my way or my views, but rather
to explain why I believe what I do. I do no identify God as a known
being just a mind. In fact I think of myself as a deist,
>
> And every one of those interventions must require a violation of the rational, ordered natural laws that God originally designed, whether it simply involved altering quantum mechanical probabilities associated with mutation, physical pushing a bunch of chemicals into the right position for form a self-replicating RNA molecule, or violating various laws of thermodynamics by instantaneously producing a new organism entirely ex nihilo.
>
>
> In short here's your argument with Carroll
>
> Carroll: If anything fine tuning is an argument against God, because if there were a God he could just keep everything He wanted alive by sheer omnipotence, without worrying about the mass of the electron or the fine structure constant.
>
> Ron: But that would mean that God was completely irrational, violating whatever natural laws He had created in order to get a specific outcome that was not compatible with those laws.
>
To be logical and rational, there had to be consistency. Time always
moves forward, never reverses. You could not jump off a cliff and remain
on the cliff at the same time. Two + two must always equal four, not
some other value at times. The earth can never be revolving in opposite
directions at the same time.
>
> Me: OK, but if your counter-argument against Carroll is correct, it undermines your own position on design, because your own position requires that God intervene repeatedly, violating the natural laws He created, in order to get the outcomes He wanted, outcomes incompatible with the laws he designed.
>
>
In reality, whether he could or could not, in order to be logical and
consistent he encountered a conundrum. It came down to life or no
life. The living cell required information. And information
comes only from mind, not from, hazardous, aimless mindless natural
processes. Life needed a considerable amount information, since living
things required information that was too complex for anything but mind.
To be logical, rational and consistent, information comes from mind and
only from mind.