California Science Center is sued for canceling a film promoting ID
Jason Spaceman
------------------------------------------------
L.A.'s California Science Center will start the new year defending itself in
court for canceling a documentary film attacking Charles Darwin's theory of
evolution.
A lawsuit alleges that the state-owned center improperly bowed to pressure from
the Smithsonian Institution, as well as e-mailed complaints from USC professors
and others. It contends that the center violated both the 1st Amendment and a
contract to rent the museum's Imax Theater when it canceled the screening of
"Darwin's Dilemma: The Mystery of the Cambrian Fossil Record."
The suit was filed in Los Angeles Superior Court by the American Freedom
Alliance, an L.A.-based group described by senior fellow Avi Davis as a
nonprofit, nonpartisan "think tank and activist network promoting Western values
and ideals."
The AFA seeks punitive damages and compensation for financial losses, as well as
a declaration from the court that the center violated the Constitution and
cannot refuse the group the right to rent its facilities for future events.
The AFA had planned an Oct. 25 screening of two films at the Exposition Park
museum -- one a short Imax movie called "We are Born of Stars," which favors
Darwin's theory; the other, "Darwin's Dilemma: The Mystery of the Cambrian
Fossil Record," a feature-length documentary that criticizes Darwin and promotes
intelligent design.
---------------------------------------------------
Read it at http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/arts/la-et-science-
center29-2009dec29,0,6400745.story or http://tinyurl.com/ygmsbq2
J. Spaceman
Ron O
wrote:
Beats me if these guys have a case, but it is just too bad that
intelligent design turned out to be just a bogus political scam.
Could be embarassing for a legitimate "think tank," but is just what
you would expect out of a stink tank like the Discovery Institute.
The American Freedom Alliance might not want to brand themselves with
such a public pronouncement that they were either rubes that fell for
the bogus scam or are dishonest enough to try to keep perpetrating the
scam years after the bait and switch started going down. Either way
it wouldn't be something that a legitimate organization would want to
be labeled with. The sad fact is that organizations that lie about
these things usually have misnomers for names like "Freedom Alliance"
or "Discovery Institute."
Ron Okimoto
Boikat
> ------------------------------------------------
> L.A.'s California Science Center will start the new year defending itself in
> court for canceling a documentary film attacking Charles Darwin's theory of
> evolution.
>
> A lawsuit alleges that the state-owned center improperly bowed to pressure from
> the Smithsonian Institution, as well as e-mailed complaints from USC professors
> and others. It contends that the center violated both the 1st Amendment and a
> contract to rent the museum's Imax Theater when it canceled the screening of
> "Darwin's Dilemma: The Mystery of the Cambrian Fossil Record."
>
> The suit was filed in Los Angeles Superior Court by the American Freedom
> Alliance, an L.A.-based group described by senior fellow Avi Davis as a
> nonprofit, nonpartisan "think tank and activist network promoting Western values
> and ideals."
Whenever any organization uses the buzz words "Western values", it's a
red flag that those "values" include religious fundimentalism: anti
abortion, anti gay rights, anti evolution anti freedom of, and from,
religion. On the other hand, they endorse: school sponcored public
prayer in school, religious displays on government property (as long
as it's Christian), and giving "equal time" to creationism in the
public schools.
Who do they think they are fooling?
>
> The AFA seeks punitive damages and compensation for financial losses, as well as
> a declaration from the court that the center violated the Constitution and
> cannot refuse the group the right to rent its facilities for future events.
>
> The AFA had planned an Oct. 25 screening of two films at the Exposition Park
> museum -- one a short Imax movie called "We are Born of Stars," which favors
> Darwin's theory; the other, "Darwin's Dilemma: The Mystery of the Cambrian
> Fossil Record," a feature-length documentary that criticizes Darwin and promotes
> intelligent design.
Yes, a quickie "pro" evolution, followed by hours of "see, the first
movie was *wrong!!!*."
What a bunch of weiners.
Boikat
Boikat
The fact that theiy say they promote "Western values " doesn't
exaclty mean they gather 'round and watch John Wayne movies. ;)
Boikat
All-seeing-I
>
> - Show quoted text -
Utter nonsense Ron. Why do you advocate one group being isolated for
their ideas? The only thing that separates America from the rest of
the world is the fact that we protect ideas no matter how different
they are and no matter how much we may disagree with them. We even
protect Atheism.
But it seems top me they are trying to catch the mouse when they
should be trying to catch the cat instead. It is the cat that needs to
learn that information and ideas are not to be suppressed with
intimidation and Hitler-type tactics.
IMO it was The Smithsonian and those well meaning USC professors which
instigated the matter. Then some poor government worker at the
California Science Center,(not wanting to jeopardize his job probably)
caved in.
This is a clear case of censorship and bullying with attitudes that
undermined the flow of ideas.
There should be no doubt in people's minds after reading this, that
there is an agenda afoot in America to attack any ideas that are in
opposition to The Theory of Evolution.
Dan Listermann
"All-seeing-I" <ap...@email.com> wrote in message
news:f5f28f5a-bf04-4fae...@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
You seem to have a real problem with strawmen.
.
bpuharic
<ap...@email.com> wrote:
>Utter nonsense Ron. Why do you advocate one group being isolated for
>their ideas? The only thing that separates America from the rest of
>the world is the fact that we protect ideas no matter how different
>they are and no matter how much we may disagree with them. We even
>protect Atheism.
and churches are free to express creationism while science
institutions are free to express science...like evolution
>
>But it seems top me they are trying to catch the mouse when they
>should be trying to catch the cat instead. It is the cat that needs to
>learn that information and ideas are not to be suppressed with
>intimidation and Hitler-type tactics.
>
>IMO it was The Smithsonian and those well meaning USC professors which
>instigated the matter. Then some poor government worker at the
>California Science Center,(not wanting to jeopardize his job probably)
>caved in.
>
>This is a clear case of censorship and bullying with attitudes that
>undermined the flow of ideas.
if the CA science institute is public then it CANT approve of
creationism since THAT is religion
>
>There should be no doubt in people's minds after reading this, that
>there is an agenda afoot in America to attack any ideas that are in
>opposition to The Theory of Evolution.
uh...no. evolution can be attacked. creationism is religion so can not
be supported by public institutions.
see the 1st amendment
Dan Listermann
"bpuharic" <wf...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:6pakj5lcv183qfglg...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 06:47:17 -0800 (PST), All-seeing-I
> <ap...@email.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Utter nonsense Ron. Why do you advocate one group being isolated for
>>their ideas? The only thing that separates America from the rest of
>>the world is the fact that we protect ideas no matter how different
>>they are and no matter how much we may disagree with them. We even
>>protect Atheism.
>
> and churches are free to express creationism while science
> institutions are free to express science...like evolution
>
"If you don't pray in our schools, we won't think in your churches."
.
alextangent
I beg to differ, largely because the freedoms I value are not the
freedoms you value. Specifically, I don't regard US fundamentalist
religious based pseudo-scientific batshittery to be a worthy cause of
my support, because the damage it causes is too great and the cost of
supporting it is too high. I'm not stopping you defending to the death
their right to be fuckwits; just don't expect the rest of the world to
hold your defence of this "freedom" in high regard.
>
> But it seems top me they are trying to catch the mouse when they
> should be trying to catch the cat instead. It is the cat that needs to
> learn that information and ideas are not to be suppressed with
> intimidation and Hitler-type tactics.
Jeez, you can string together the bollox! The next time you're laid
into by an ax wielding freak spaced out on crystal meth who thinks
you're Satan, watch me step back and declare he's got every right and
freedom to do you any amount of damage. Because you and he are in the
land of the free! He's got rights, and that includes chopping you into
small bits.
>
> IMO it was The Smithsonian and those well meaning USC professors which
> instigated the matter. Then some poor government worker at the
> California Science Center,(not wanting to jeopardize his job probably)
> caved in.
>
> This is a clear case of censorship and bullying with attitudes that
> undermined the flow of ideas.
>
> There should be no doubt in people's minds after reading this, that
> there is an agenda afoot in America to attack any ideas that are in
> opposition to The Theory of Evolution.
I'm watching you defend ax wielding psychos. A group that want to
dismember science, slice by slice. Some of us don't see the freedom in
allowing that, to be frank.
Boikat
How about protecting valid science, as opposed to "anything goes as
long as it conforms to my religious views and makes me feel all warm,
fuzzy and special"?
>
> But it seems top me they are trying to catch the mouse when they
> should be trying to catch the cat instead. It is the cat that needs to
> learn that information and ideas are not to be suppressed with
> intimidation and Hitler-type tactics.
You're right. So you creatotards should zipit.
>
> IMO it was The Smithsonian and those well meaning USC professors which
> instigated the matter.
Gasp! You mean they wanted to make it cleas that ID is nothing but
creationism wearing a "play-school" lab coat? The horror!
> Then some poor government worker at the
> California Science Center,(not wanting to jeopardize his job probably)
> caved in.
You emean, "saw the light of reason"?
>
> This is a clear case of censorship and bullying with attitudes that
> undermined the flow of ideas.
Bullshit.
>
> There should be no doubt in people's minds after reading this, that
> there is an agenda afoot in America to attack any ideas that are in
> opposition to The Theory of Evolution.
And only a snot-nosed moron would miss the point that the "ajenda" of
those that oppose the ToE are religious fanatics. That explains why
you even *think* there is any *scientific* opposition, you snot nosed
moron.
Boikat
All-seeing-I
>
> - Show quoted text -
You seem to be a mental midget incapable of tolerance. I'm feel sorry
for you.
To prevent persons such as your self from shaking their little fists
in the air while proclaiming they alone are worthy to judge what is
and is not accurate information is the reason we have a Constitution
in America.
Thank God for THAT , eh?
Boikat
You feel sorry for someone who supports honesty, and defends the
integrity of science. Boy, that's not a surprise.
>
> To prevent persons such as your self from shaking their little fists
> in the air while proclaiming they alone are worthy to judge what is
> and is not accurate information is the reason we have a Constitution
> in America.
We also have a Constitution that separates church and state. Sucks,
doesn't it?
>
> Thank God for THAT , eh?-
I thank the founding fathers. They wrote the Consttution, your God-
thing did not.
Boikat
All-seeing-I
>
> - Show quoted text -
I know you are not a child. So all one can do is assume "arrested
development" in your case; or perhaps some sort of mental retardation.
I do not rule out drug and alchol abuse however.
Put down that CrACK Pipe.
Please stop drinking and driving your computer too.
And stop eating all that damn PORK with those potatochips and sugary
soft drinks.
Boikat
Projection.
>
> I do not rule out drug and alchol abuse however.
I'm sure you have much experiance in that department.
>
> Put down that CrACK Pipe.
You should take your own advice.
>
> Please stop drinking and driving your computer too.
Again, you should take your own advice.
>
> And stop eating all that damn PORK with those potatochips and sugary
> soft drinks
Lean pork chops are as healthy as any othe meat, I don't eat much in
the way of potatochips, and I do not drink "sugary soft drinks". What
that has to do with anything is anyone's guess.
The fact remains, the only opposition to the ToE comes from religious
fanatics (Or, outright loons), are not even remotely scientific in
nature, and that is a fact which you did not address.
Why am I not surprised?
And, oh yes, that was a 10 on the "Squink Meter", therefore, I know
you know you're an idiot.
But thanks for today's Monnnkeey-boy dance. Now go eat your bananna.
Boikat
Davej
> ------------------------------------------------
> L.A.'s California Science Center will start the new year defending itself in
> court for canceling a documentary film attacking Charles Darwin's theory of
> evolution.
Well, you would think that these science centers would legally
position themselves to avoid this situation.
alextangent
If you and your kind insist on coming round to my place and defecating
on the carpets, my capability for tolerance isn't the question. It's
why you and yours appear to take so much pleasure in not being potty
trained.
>
> To prevent persons such as your self from shaking their little fists
> in the air while proclaiming they alone are worthy to judge what is
> and is not accurate information is the reason we have a Constitution
> in America.
>
> Thank God for THAT , eh?
An ocean separates you and me. That I do rejoice in.
All-seeing-I
No one is defecating on your rug.
Who are you to decide what is and is not a valid position?
> > To prevent persons such as your self from shaking their little fists
> > in the air while proclaiming they alone are worthy to judge what is
> > and is not accurate information is the reason we have a Constitution
> > in America.
>
> > Thank God for THAT , eh?
>
> An ocean separates you and me. That I do rejoice in.
So you live in a communist state where ideas are to be censored?
Boikat
It was a metaphore, moron.
>
> Who are you to decide what is and is not a valid position?
People who understand the principles of science, actually do the work,
and have brains. That leaves you and other creationists out.
>
> > > To prevent persons such as your self from shaking their little fists
> > > in the air while proclaiming they alone are worthy to judge what is
> > > and is not accurate information is the reason we have a Constitution
> > > in America.
>
> > > Thank God for THAT , eh?
>
> > An ocean separates you and me. That I do rejoice in.
>
> So you live in a communist state....
So, all countries that are separated from the U. S. by an ocean are
communist states? That's news to me. When did that happen?
> ..where ideas are to be censored?
Nobody is censoring creationism. But since creationism is *not*
science, and *is* a religious dogma, it has no place in any government
or public supported science programs, including schools, science
centers or museums. Creatotards what to have a "slap each other's
back over the stupid evilutionists" shin-dig, they are welcome to hold
one in their church or parochial school gym.
Boikat
Burkhard
Rough guess: not on the constitutional and free speech side, very
possibly on the contract side unless the contract either stipulates an
unrestricted right to rescind in the fine print, or they explicitly
(and provably) misled the museum as to the nature of the film.
alextangent
You don't get it. It's everyone's right *not to support your and the
other wingnuts' positions on science.
>
> > > To prevent persons such as your self from shaking their little fists
> > > in the air while proclaiming they alone are worthy to judge what is
> > > and is not accurate information is the reason we have a Constitution
> > > in America.
>
> > > Thank God for THAT , eh?
>
> > An ocean separates you and me. That I do rejoice in.
>
> So you live in a communist state where ideas are to be censored?
That last sentence says more about you than you will ever
understand.
Kermit
OK, once again:
Tell us why the Theory of Evolution is wrong.
You must use verifiable evidence and testable models only, or it is
not science.
You must not reference religious texts, or it is religion, and cannot
be supported by the US or local governments.
This is under the auspices of the LA County government.
>
> To prevent persons such as your self from shaking their little fists
> in the air while proclaiming they alone are worthy to judge what is
> and is not accurate information is the reason we have a Constitution
> in America.
The scientific community judges what is science.
The Dover decision determined that ID is religion, not science. Behe
and other experts testifying *on *behalf of the ID proponents admitted
that there was no research, no textbooks, no lesson plans, no theory
of ID. He admitted that any redefinition of "science" that would
include ID would also include astrology.
>
> Thank God for THAT , eh?
You have only yourself to thank for your smug ignorance.
Kermit
Kermit
They win if they can make the lazy or slow-witted doubt the sincerity
of all organizations, and make them cynical about all grassroots
movements. In the US they have nearly succeeded in persuading the
majority of citizens that the federal government is fundamentally
untrustworthy and incompetent. The conservatives of the 1950s would
have been appalled at those claims. Also the neoconservative contempt
for law and order, fiscal responsibility, and contempt for science.
>
>
>
> > The AFA seeks punitive damages and compensation for financial losses, as well as
> > a declaration from the court that the center violated the Constitution and
> > cannot refuse the group the right to rent its facilities for future events.
>
> > The AFA had planned an Oct. 25 screening of two films at the Exposition Park
> > museum -- one a short Imax movie called "We are Born of Stars," which favors
> > Darwin's theory; the other, "Darwin's Dilemma: The Mystery of the Cambrian
> > Fossil Record," a feature-length documentary that criticizes Darwin and promotes
> > intelligent design.
>
> Yes, a quickie "pro" evolution, followed by hours of "see, the first
> movie was *wrong!!!*."
>
> What a bunch of weiners.
Well, they don't have any scientists - no evidence, no research. They
pretty much *have to be weiners.
>
> Boikat
Kermit
Ye Old One
In fact, of the widely available mammalian meats, it is by far the
healthiest.
> I don't eat much in
>the way of potatochips, and I do not drink "sugary soft drinks". What
>that has to do with anything is anyone's guess.
>
>The fact remains, the only opposition to the ToE comes from religious
>fanatics (Or, outright loons), are not even remotely scientific in
>nature, and that is a fact which you did not address.
>
>Why am I not surprised?
>
>And, oh yes, that was a 10 on the "Squink Meter", therefore, I know
>you know you're an idiot.
>
>But thanks for today's Monnnkeey-boy dance. Now go eat your bananna.
Ah! The fruit made to fit his hands :)
>
>Boikat
--
Bob.
When D-G made Madman out of clay he forgot to magic the brain. I think
that explains everything.
Ron O
Do you deny that intelligent design turned out to be a bogus political
scam? Demonstrate that it was legitimate when the began running the
bait and switch on their own supporters years before they lost in
court. If you look at the switch scam you will see that it doesn't
even mention that ID ever existed and it is being perpetrated by the
same guys that sold the rubes the ID scam. Not only that, but the guy
that they used to call the godfather of the ID scam by the other ID
perps came out and admitted that there never was any intelligent
design science worth teaching that was equivalent to the real
science. In the face of just those two facts, demonstrate that ID
wasn't a bogus political scam.
>
> But it seems top me they are trying to catch the mouse when they
> should be trying to catch the cat instead. It is the cat that needs to
> learn that information and ideas are not to be suppressed with
> intimidation and Hitler-type tactics.
These guys are the ones that are suing to intimidate the science
center. If they are legit, which you probably have a very good idea
is not the case, we will find out.
>
> IMO it was The Smithsonian and those well meaning USC professors which
> instigated the matter. Then some poor government worker at the
> California Science Center,(not wanting to jeopardize his job probably)
> caved in.
No legitimate organizations should be forced to support a bogus scam.
If you can demonstrate that ID was legit you would be way ahead of the
ID perps themselves.
>
> This is a clear case of censorship and bullying with attitudes that
> undermined the flow of ideas.
Intimidation and censorship is what these guys live on. If they had
their way what do you think that they would be doing? What did they
do in Kansas when they had the majority? The deleted evolution, the
age of the earth and radiometric dating from the science standards.
That is the thing about the misnomer that this organization goes by.
They are only inerested in suppressing the rights of others that they
do not agree with. Want to make a bet as to how interested in freedom
that this organization is? Want to bet that the Western values that
they want to promote involve Christianity of the fundamentalist
variety? Want to bet that they were just suckers for the ID scam, but
are the type that are dishonest enough to bend over and take the
switch scam from the ID perps?
I really don't know if that is the case, and I said as much in my
post, but I'm willing to bet you that they are another bogus political
organization that isn't interested in both sides only their side. You
likely even understand at some level that I am likely correct about
this and you only beef is that it is true and it makes your side look
like the losers that they are.
>
> There should be no doubt in people's minds after reading this, that
> there is an agenda afoot in America to attack any ideas that are in
> opposition to The Theory of Evolution.-
There is a right wing agenda, where they do not have valid argument
and rely on the support of the ignorant, incompetent and or dishonest
such as adman. Isn't that sad? Wouldn't you want them to depend on
more than stupidity and ignorance?
Where is that honest and valid anti-evolution argument? Why continue
when you haven't found any and you have tried hundreds? Why support
the scam artists that sell youj the bogus junk? Wouldn't you rather
depend on honesty and integrity instead of dishonesty and stupidity?
Ron Okimoto
David Hare-Scott
>
> Utter nonsense Ron. Why do you advocate one group being isolated for
> their ideas? The only thing that separates America from the rest of
> the world is the fact that we protect ideas no matter how different
> they are and no matter how much we may disagree with them. We even
> protect Atheism.
>
Yes, yes, America is the only civilised nation on earth, the only one where
anybody values personal freedom and individual differences. The rest of the
world is divided between the effete socialists of Europe and the Great
Unwashed who are clearly both beyond redemption for they will never permit
such liberality. It is such a shame that in the cultural imperialism by the
Home of The Brave and Land of The Free such values have been inexplicably
omitted.
David
All-seeing-I
>
> - Show quoted text -
Do you LIKE preventing the free exchange of ideas?
All-seeing-I
You may be right. But that is not the point. We cannot shut down the
exchange of ideas just because some feel they are not legitimate Ron.
There have been many wrong ideas in the past that turned out to be not
so wrong. OTOH there have been ideas assumed to be correct that turned
out to be inadequate. Every idea is worthy to be heard no matter what
the concequences.
But. And this is a BIG "But"
What is \\->most important<-// is that we get to listen to all points
of view and then decide for ourselves. That is paramount. All sides
must get equal time and equal consideration if we are to remain free.
Because if history has taught us anything, Power tends to corrupt, and
absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely.
It is dangerous ground we walk on when we let the free exchange of
ideas be governed by the few. It is all about the choices.
>
> > But it seems top me they are trying to catch the mouse when they
> > should be trying to catch the cat instead. It is the cat that needs to
> > learn that information and ideas are not to be suppressed with
> > intimidation and Hitler-type tactics.
>
> These guys are the ones that are suing to intimidate the science
> center. �If they are legit, which you probably have a very good idea
> is not the case, we will find out.
The article does not suggest that dude.
It says the Smithsonian Institution, as well as e-mailed complaints
from USC professors and others got the ball rolling on this. It was
the the Smithsonian Institution, as well as e-mailed complaints from
USC professors and others that began the attack
Why?
Because someone dared contradict the ToE?
We can't have that. We need a free exchange of ideas no matter what
those ideas are. By you wanting the 'American Freedom Alliance' to
distance itself from the DI only stifles that exchange of ideas and
will certainly have unintended consequences for the future.
Who knows what could happen; In 20 years Jerry Falwell could become
president and you will be begging for the same free exchange of ideas.
> > IMO it was The Smithsonian and those well meaning USC professors which
> > instigated the matter. Then some poor government worker at the
> > California Science Center,(not wanting to jeopardize his job probably)
> > caved in.
>
> No legitimate organizations should be forced to support a bogus scam.
> If you can demonstrate that ID was legit you would be way ahead of the
> ID perps themselves.
Ideas Ron. They should not be stopped. No matter how wrong you believe
they are. Because the tables could turn and someone in power could
believe your ideas are wrong one day. What would you do?
Free people have choices. Therefore all ideas must be heard.
> > This is a clear case of censorship and bullying with attitudes that
> > undermined the flow of ideas.
>
> Intimidation and censorship is what these guys live on. �If they had
> their way what do you think that they would be doing? �What did they
> do in Kansas when they had the majority? �The deleted evolution, the
> age of the earth and radiometric dating from the science standards.
> That is the thing about the misnomer that this organization goes by.
> They are only inerested in suppressing the rights of others that they
> do not agree with. �Want to make a bet as to how interested in freedom
> that this organization is? �Want to bet that the Western values that
> they want to promote involve Christianity of the fundamentalist
> variety? �Want to bet that they were just suckers for the ID scam, but
> are the type that are dishonest enough to bend over and take the
> switch scam from the ID perps?
>
> I really don't know if that is the case, and I said as much in my
> post, but I'm willing to bet you that they are another bogus political
> organization that isn't interested in both sides only their side. �You
> likely even understand at some level that I am likely correct about
> this and you only beef is that it is true and it makes your side look
> like the losers that they are.
I do not have a "side" Ron.
But if I had to pick a side, right now, it would be with what is
already known from history and not from science. This is not because i
do not respect science but because science cannot lay claim to any
absolute truths yet.
> > There should be no doubt in people's minds after reading this, that
> > there is an agenda afoot in America to attack any ideas that are in
> > opposition to The Theory of Evolution.-
>
> There is a right wing agenda, where they do not have valid argument
> and rely on the support of the ignorant, incompetent and or dishonest
> such as adman. �Isn't that sad? �Wouldn't you want them to depend on
> more than stupidity and ignorance?
>
> Where is that honest and valid anti-evolution argument? �Why continue
> when you haven't found any and you have tried hundreds? �Why support
> the scam artists that sell youj the bogus junk? �Wouldn't you rather
> depend on honesty and integrity instead of dishonesty and stupidity?
>
> Ron Okimoto
How can you ask for "valid and honest" arguments" when you are so
ready to prevent the free exchange of ideas and alternate views?
bpuharic
<ap...@email.com> wrote:
yes. when the government is involved?
yes. yes i do. the government has nothing to tell me about religion.
>
>
bpuharic
<ap...@email.com> wrote:
>On Dec 29, 7:14�pm, Ron O <rokim...@cox.net> wrote:
>> On Dec 29, 8:47�am, All-seeing-I <ap...@email.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Do you deny that intelligent design turned out to be a bogus political
>> scam? �Demonstrate that it was legitimate when the began running the
>> bait and switch on their own supporters years before they lost in
>> court. �If you look at the switch scam you will see that it doesn't
>> even mention that ID ever existed and it is being perpetrated by the
>> same guys that sold the rubes the ID scam. �Not only that, but the guy
>> that they used to call the godfather of the ID scam by the other ID
>> perps came out and admitted that there never was any intelligent
>> design science worth teaching that was equivalent to the real
>> science. �In the face of just those two facts, demonstrate that ID
>> wasn't a bogus political scam.
>
>You may be right. But that is not the point. We cannot shut down the
>exchange of ideas just because some feel they are not legitimate Ron.
sure we can. it says so. right in the 1st amendment of the
constitution. it says the govt can not promote religion. the govt has
no right to advocate a religion.
>There have been many wrong ideas in the past that turned out to be not
>so wrong. OTOH there have been ideas assumed to be correct that turned
>out to be inadequate. Every idea is worthy to be heard no matter what
>the concequences.
fine. then take your rosicrucian/ghost busters belief system and
continue advertising in the back pages of 'popular mechanics'.
you do not have the right to force the govt to force me to support
your beliefs
>
>But. And this is a BIG "But"
>What is \\->most important<-// is that we get to listen to all points
>of view and then decide for ourselves. That is paramount. All sides
>must get equal time and equal consideration if we are to remain free.
>Because if history has taught us anything, Power tends to corrupt, and
>absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely.
irrelevant.
>
>It is dangerous ground we walk on when we let the free exchange of
>ideas be governed by the few. It is all about the choices.
irrelevant.
no one is censoring creationism at all. no one.
>
>Who knows what could happen; In 20 years Jerry Falwell could become
>president and you will be begging for the same free exchange of ideas.
he's dead.
and you guys DID try to hijack the country. many state constitutions
prohibit atheists from holding office. so you guys DID try to prohibit
the free exchange of ideas.
that's why jefferson and madison prohibited the govt from promoting
religion
RAM
And it sits on the top of your shoulders.
And it passes a lot of gas.
Your straw man argument about freedom of speech is bogus.
Would you let a government program that promotes evolution be
presented in your church. Or are Essenes as open as the UUs.
Well it is a religious agenda that is being promoted. The Dover case
demonstrates that.
> What is \\->most important<-// is that we get to listen to all points
> of view and then decide for ourselves. That is paramount. All sides
> must get equal time and equal consideration if we are to remain free.
There are hundreds of thousands of venues for promoting ID. Your
street corner proselytizing on TO works on street corners and ID is a
fitting topic there.
> Because if history has taught us anything, Power tends to corrupt, and
> absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely.
No that is not what is at issue.
>
> It is dangerous ground we walk on when we let the free exchange of
> ideas be governed by the few. It is all about the choices.
This is loony and typical of your misplaced hyperbole
>
>
>
> > > But it seems top me they are trying to catch the mouse when they
> > > should be trying to catch the cat instead. It is the cat that needs to
> > > learn that information and ideas are not to be suppressed with
> > > intimidation and Hitler-type tactics.
>
> > These guys are the ones that are suing to intimidate the science
> > center. �If they are legit, which you probably have a very good idea
> > is not the case, we will find out.
>
> The article does not suggest that dude.
Again you do not understand. ID is a religious Trojan horse to get
religion in science. The very same loony anti-science agenda you have
of bring religion into science.
>
> It says the Smithsonian Institution, as well as e-mailed complaints
> from USC professors and others got the ball rolling on this. It was
> the the Smithsonian Institution, as well as e-mailed complaints from
> USC professors and others that began the attack
>
> Why?
>
> Because someone dared contradict the ToE?
No loony as has been told to you ID is Trojan horse religion and not
science.
>
> We can't have that. We need a free exchange of ideas no matter what
> those ideas are. By you wanting the 'American Freedom Alliance' to
> distance itself from the DI only stifles that exchange of ideas and
> will certainly have unintended consequences for the future.
This is stupid and absurd.
>
> Who knows what could happen; In 20 years Jerry Falwell could become
> president and you will be begging for the same free exchange of ideas.
If he rises from the dead he will want more than being president of
the US.
>
> > > IMO it was The Smithsonian and those well meaning USC professors which
> > > instigated the matter. Then some poor government worker at the
> > > California Science Center,(not wanting to jeopardize his job probably)
> > > caved in.
>
> > No legitimate organizations should be forced to support a bogus scam.
> > If you can demonstrate that ID was legit you would be way ahead of the
> > ID perps themselves.
>
> Ideas Ron. They should not be stopped. No matter how wrong you believe
> they are. Because the tables could turn and someone in power could
> believe your ideas are wrong one day. What would you do?
Broken record. If a conservative religious movement gets in power in
the US we will act worse than a banana republic. Conservative
religious groups love personal and public repression.
>
> Free people have choices. Therefore all ideas must be heard.
>
Those street corners are just right for this kind of Christianist
crap. Take an umbrella and perfume they may sling it back.
>
>
>
>
> > > This is a clear case of censorship and bullying with attitudes that
> > > undermined the flow of ideas.
>
> > Intimidation and censorship is what these guys live on. �If they had
> > their way what do you think that they would be doing? �What did they
> > do in Kansas when they had the majority? �The deleted evolution, the
> > age of the earth and radiometric dating from the science standards.
> > That is the thing about the misnomer that this organization goes by.
> > They are only inerested in suppressing the rights of others that they
> > do not agree with. �Want to make a bet as to how interested in freedom
> > that this organization is? �Want to bet that the Western values that
> > they want to promote involve Christianity of the fundamentalist
> > variety? �Want to bet that they were just suckers for the ID scam, but
> > are the type that are dishonest enough to bend over and take the
> > switch scam from the ID perps?
>
> > I really don't know if that is the case, and I said as much in my
> > post, but I'm willing to bet you that they are another bogus political
> > organization that isn't interested in both sides only their side. �You
> > likely even understand at some level that I am likely correct about
> > this and you only beef is that it is true and it makes your side look
> > like the losers that they are.
>
> I do not have a "side" Ron.
You are a loony and you say a lot of contradictory things. Yes you
do have a "side" and it is the religious "side." And you want the
religious side in science which only a loon or politically motivated
Christianists like IDists would want.
>
> But if I had to pick a side, right now, it would be with what is
> already known from history and not from science.
Your reading of history is well known and it is decidedly loony.
Sumerian crap is only one item of evidence of your ability to deal
with history much less understand contemporary phenomena such as what
ID is or what science is.
> This is not because i
> do not respect science but because science cannot lay claim to any
> absolute truths yet.
You idiot it never will lay claim to absolute truths. Scientism is
not science even though it is seen on TO.
>
> > > There should be no doubt in people's minds after reading this, that
> > > there is an agenda afoot in America to attack any ideas that are in
> > > opposition to The Theory of Evolution.-
>
> > There is a right wing agenda, where they do not have valid argument
> > and rely on the support of the ignorant, incompetent and or dishonest
> > such as adman. �Isn't that sad? �Wouldn't you want them to depend on
> > more than stupidity and ignorance?
>
> > Where is that honest and valid anti-evolution argument? �Why continue
> > when you haven't found any and you have tried hundreds? �Why support
> > the scam artists that sell youj the bogus junk? �Wouldn't you rather
> > depend on honesty and integrity instead of dishonesty and stupidity?
>
> > Ron Okimoto
>
> How can you ask for "valid and honest" arguments" when you are so
> ready to prevent the free exchange of ideas and alternate views?
See above and learn something about science.
And damn it "you truly do not understand!"
Even when it is consistently pointed out to you. You still don't
understand science. Take a damn research oriented science class so
you will disabuse yourself of some your frequently repeated
stupidities about science's relationship to truth and religion.
richardal...@googlemail.com
> On Dec 29, 7:17 am, Ron O <rokim...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 29, 3:41 am, Jason Spaceman <notrea...@jspaceman.homelinux.org>
> > wrote:
>
> > > From the article:
> > > ------------------------------------------------
> > > L.A.'s California Science Center will start the new year defending itself in
> > > court for canceling a documentary film attacking Charles Darwin's theory of
> > > evolution.
>
> > > A lawsuit alleges that the state-owned center improperly bowed to pressure from
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> their ideas? The only thing that separates America from the rest of
> the world is the fact that we protect ideas no matter how different
> they are and no matter how much we may disagree with them. We even
> protect Atheism.
Oh, my word!
As a matter of idle curiosity, have you ever spent any time anywhere
outside the USA? Compared the freedoms offered by nations other than
the USA with those offered there? Have you ever considered the
possibility that the USA is not the most perfect state in existence,
and can learn nothing from any anywhere else?
You may dismiss them as "communist", but there are nations which are
economically successful and with a contented populace but which do not
espouse USAian values. They have high levels of taxation which people
are prepared to pay because of the solid foundation of welfare it
provides. They do not suffer from the social tensions created by the
vast divide between the haves and the have-nots of the USA, or the way
in which that divide limits social mobility. They do not have a
population living in fear of illness because of lack of health
insurance, or the fear that if they become ill the corporation which
provides insurance will withdraw it, or the fear of bankruptcy because
of health costs.
They have their own problems. Nobody who has actually lived there
would claim that they are perfect societies. There are many admirable
aspects of USAian society and culture. However, one of the most
striking aspects of that culture which I noticed when I lived in the
USA is the general profound ignorance of any nation other than their
own, and downright ludicrous notions about others.
RF
>
> But it seems top me they are trying to catch the mouse when they
> should be trying to catch the cat instead. It is the cat that needs to
> learn that information and ideas are not to be suppressed with
> intimidation and Hitler-type tactics.
>
> IMO it was The Smithsonian and those well meaning USC professors which
> instigated the matter. Then some poor government worker at the
> California Science Center,(not wanting to jeopardize his job probably)
> caved in.
>
> This is a clear case of censorship and bullying with attitudes that
> undermined the flow of ideas.
>
Boikat
>
<snip>
>
> Do you LIKE preventing the free exchange of ideas?-
That depends on the venue.
That should be a simple enough concept for you to grasp. Or does the
word "venue" confuse you?
Boikat
All-seeing-I
wow.. a 5 out of 10 on the squeel meter. Not bad.
The US is the most perfect system on the planet in many respects.
Unless one LIKES to be controled by a few in the ruling class.
Aparently you do.
>
> You may dismiss them as "communist", but there are nations which are
> economically successful and with a contented populace but which do not
> espouse USAian values. They have high levels of taxation which people
> are prepared to pay because of the solid foundation of welfare it
> provides.
And the population is poorer, they generally own less of what they can
consider their own. They work for the government rather then have the
government work for them. How smart is THAT?
> They do not suffer from the social tensions created by the
> vast divide between the haves and the have-nots of the USA, or the way
> in which that divide limits social mobility.
You have a rather dim view of capitalism. In America, if you have the
right idea you can go from being one of the "have-not's" to being one
of the rich and famous.
In your nanny-states such as in Europe there is nothing to compel
success because there is too much welfare.
>They do not have a
> population living in fear of illness because of lack of health
> insurance, or the fear that if they become ill the corporation which
> provides insurance will withdraw it, or the fear of bankruptcy because
> of health costs.
They also do not have to worry if some bureaucrat will decide when
they live and die.
> They have their own problems. Nobody who has actually lived there
> would claim that they are perfect societies. There are many admirable
> aspects of USAian society and culture. However, one of the most
> striking aspects of that culture which I noticed when I lived in the
> USA is the general profound ignorance of any nation other than their
> own, and downright �ludicrous notions about others.
Such drama Richard. Did you survey the entire country or did you draw
this conclusion from the few that you had contact with and that
disagreed with you
> > But it seems top me they are trying to catch the mouse when they
> > should be trying to catch the cat instead. It is the cat that needs to
> > learn that information and ideas are not to be suppressed with
> > intimidation and Hitler-type tactics.
>
> > IMO it was The Smithsonian and those well meaning USC professors which
> > instigated the matter. Then some poor government worker at the
> > California Science Center,(not wanting to jeopardize his job probably)
> > caved in.
>
> > This is a clear case of censorship and bullying with attitudes that
> > undermined the flow of ideas.
>
> > There should be no doubt in people's minds after reading this, that
> > there is an agenda afoot in America to attack any ideas that are in
> > opposition to The Theory of Evolution.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Burkhard
You have ever been to Sweden, the Netherlands, Germany or Denmark?
they generally own less of what they can
> consider their own.
??
>They work for the government rather then have the
> government work for them. How smart is THAT?
Your ignorance of European countries is as gerat as your ignorance
of...well pretty much everything
>
> > �They do not suffer from the social tensions created by the
> > vast divide between the haves and the have-nots of the USA, or the way
> > in which that divide limits social mobility.
>
> You have a rather dim view of capitalism. In America, if you have the
> right idea you can go from being one of the "have-not's" to being one
> of the rich and famous.
>
> In your nanny-states such as in Europe there is nothing to compel
> success because there is too much welfare.
amazibg who people who reject Darwinism where it actually applies are
willing to push social darwinism where it suits them politically.
Burkhard
Why not have a quid pro quo - one Sunday per month, a scientists
lectures during Sunday service on the ToE - and of course, equal time
is given by each church to the ideas of all the other religions too,
with say an Animist addressing the Baptist congregation once in a
while, to help with that exchange
alextangent
Survival of the financially fittest. Do I detect Darwinian thinking
here? Ever read any Marx?
>
> In your nanny-states such as in Europe there is nothing to compel
> success because there is too much welfare.
Yet you've never been there.
All-seeing-I
Sounds reasonable to me
Boikat
I seem to remember ASS-I whinging about the evils of evolution/
capatalism some months ago.
<snip>
Boikat
Boikat
Government mandated? Sure you do.
Try that with a Seventh Day Adventist Church, or the Southern Baptists
Boikat.
All-seeing-I
I was just busting his chops a bit. America is far from perfect. But I
would rather live here then in Europe.
We are off the track though. Europeans seem to find it more acceptable
to curtail what people can say then in America. The reasons why are
unimportant. The free exchange of ideas should never be stifled in the
manor that was outlined in the OP.
I personally find that type of bullying and intimidation unacceptable.
maybe people in Europe don't.
[\]
Boikat
The reasons why there was opposition to the film was explained to
you. Are you so stupid that you did not understand the reason? What
words were too big for you to understand?
>
> I personally find that type of bullying and intimidation unacceptable.
> maybe people in Europe don't.
>
What's unacceptable is a bunch of religious hacks *lying* and
pretending that ID is a scientific concept, when it is clearly a
religious concept, and again, has no place in a publicly funded
science center. What do you *not* understand about *LYING" about the
true nature of ID: Creationism. A religious dogma. It's that fucking
simple. If people want to watch that sort of crap, and allow
themselved to be lied to, let them do so in a church basement.
Boikat
richardal...@googlemail.com
So you haven't considered that possibility.
Do you have any idea how stupid that makes you look?
>
> The US is the most perfect system on the planet in many respects.
And very far from perfect in many others - such as it's deplorable
health service.
> Unless one LIKES to be controled by a few in the ruling class.
Well, no. There's a thing we have in Europe called "democracy".
Perhaps you should educate yourself in the concept?
> Aparently you do.
>
>
>
> > You may dismiss them as "communist", but there are nations which are
> > economically successful and with a contented populace but which do not
> > espouse USAian values. They have high levels of taxation which people
> > are prepared to pay because of the solid foundation of welfare it
> > provides.
>
> And the population is poorer, they generally own less of what they can
> consider their own. They work for the government rather then have the
> government work for them. How smart is THAT?
If it provides excellent welfare for the less fortunate in society,
and social system in which your career prospects and success and
premiated less on the wealth of your parents than on your abilities,
if it provides freedom from worrying about paying for health care, and
if it can still produce an economically sound and prosperous state,
it's very smart. In fact, it's a no brainer.
>
> > �They do not suffer from the social tensions created by the
> > vast divide between the haves and the have-nots of the USA, or the way
> > in which that divide limits social mobility.
>
> You have a rather dim view of capitalism. In America, if you have the
> right idea you can go from being one of the "have-not's" to being one
> of the rich and famous.
...and in the USA you have less social mobility than you had in 1850,
much less than that of many socialist nations such as Sweden, and that
as wealth in the USA is increasingly polarised is decreasing all the
time.
>
> In your nanny-states such as in Europe there is nothing to compel
> success because there is too much welfare.
And yet those European states have robust economies, and the Euro is
gaining ground over the dollar as the currency of international
exchange.
>
> >They do not have a
> > population living in fear of illness because of lack of health
> > insurance, or the fear that if they become ill the corporation which
> > provides insurance will withdraw it, or the fear of bankruptcy because
> > of health costs.
>
> They also do not have to worry if some bureaucrat will decide when
> they live and die.
Oh, please! You've been listening to the lies of the neocons. Do you
also think that Stephen Hawking would have died under the UK's
national health service?
>
> > They have their own problems. Nobody who has actually lived there
> > would claim that they are perfect societies. There are many admirable
> > aspects of USAian society and culture. However, one of the most
> > striking aspects of that culture which I noticed when I lived in the
> > USA is the general profound ignorance of any nation other than their
> > own, and downright �ludicrous notions about others.
>
> Such drama Richard. Did you survey the entire country or did you draw
> this conclusion from the few that you had contact with and that
> disagreed with you
>
No, I based it on my experience of living in several European
countries as well as the USA, and taking the time and effort to
educate myself in the subject.
RF
>
alextangent
Manner, not manor.
>
> I personally find that type of bullying and intimidation unacceptable.
> maybe people in Europe don't.
There are limits to free speech in any society, even (and
particularly) in the US.
You still don't get it, do you? This isn't about the suppression of
ideas but about *support* for those ideas. Rent a movie theater.
>
> [\]- Hide quoted text -
Ron O
Perpetrating a dishonest scam is not usually considered to be an
exchange of ideas. Bait and switch scams are illegal for retail. Why
do you think they have to put disclaimers in ads when retailers offer
a limited number of a sale item? When you advertise something that
you don't have and then sell the rubes that come in to buy the
nonexistent item something lame and not what was advertised, that is
fraud, and it is against the law where ever I've been. It is not
considered an exchange of ideas or even a legitimate exchange of any
kind. Just because you can get some rubes to take the switch scam,
doesn't make it legitimate. Just because it is bogus political
machinations, doesn't make it any different from any other bait and
switch scam.
>
> But. And this is a BIG "But"
> What is \\->most important<-// is that we get to listen to all points
> of view and then decide for ourselves. That is paramount. All sides
> must get equal time and equal consideration if we are to remain free.
> Because if history has taught us anything, Power tends to corrupt, and
> absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely.
But why would any honest person defend the intelligent design
creationist scam? Not only that, but these guys are as lost and
dishonest as you are, and they lost out long ago. They are only
manipulating the system to try to force their views onto anyone that
they can. They are already free to worship as they please, and they
obviously are just as able as anyone else to right a legitimate wrong,
but illegitimate use of the system and lying and bogus machinations
aren't going to change reality. If they really had valid arguments we
would have all seen them by now. So where are they? Perpetrating a
dishonest bait and switch scam using intelligent design isn't going to
make their ideas any more viable.
>
> It is dangerous ground we walk on when we let the free exchange of
> ideas be governed by the few. It is all about the choices.
You should join the ACLU. They fight for the rights of all when
someone can demonstrate that their rights have been violated. This
"Freedom" whatever is probably bogus and you likely know that or you
would have demonstrated that they were a legitimate organization.
>
> > > But it seems top me they are trying to catch the mouse when they
> > > should be trying to catch the cat instead. It is the cat that needs to
> > > learn that information and ideas are not to be suppressed with
> > > intimidation and Hitler-type tactics.
>
> > These guys are the ones that are suing to intimidate the science
> > center. �If they are legit, which you probably have a very good idea
> > is not the case, we will find out.
>
> The article does not suggest that dude.
Want to bet? Why would an honest organization want to support the
intelligent design scam? They could be ignorant and incompetent, but
someone likely has clued them in by now, so what kind of organization
would do something as stupid and dishonest as that?
>
> It says the Smithsonian Institution, as well as e-mailed complaints
> from USC professors and others got the ball rolling on this. It was
> the the Smithsonian Institution, as well as e-mailed complaints from
> USC professors and others that began the attack
Should you keep quiet and let a scam go on?
>
> Why?
Yes, why would it be a requirement that dishonest organization should
have free reign to perpetrate their scams? You could go to this group
and present the data that would tell them what a scam intelligent
design is and was. What would be wrong with that?
>
> Because someone dared contradict the ToE?
Dishonesty isn't acceptable. Running a scam is dishonest. Lying to
people and trying to keep them as ignorant as possible isn't honest
discussion of anything.
>
> We can't have that. We need a free exchange of ideas no matter what
> those ideas are. By you wanting the 'American Freedom Alliance' to
> distance itself from the DI only stifles that exchange of ideas and
> will certainly have unintended consequences for the future.
Put up the valid and honest anti-evolution arguments if you think that
honest exchange of ideas is being suppressed. Supression of bogousity
is obviously legitimate. Why should anyone support blatant scams?
Really, if something is being suppressed you haven't found it yet, so
you should be trying harder to find the honest and valid arguments
that would warrent an exchange of ideas.
>
> Who knows what could happen; In 20 years Jerry Falwell could become
> president and you will be begging for the same free exchange of ideas.
It wouldn't matter. Ideas can be suppressed, but if they reflect
reality they will come back. There would just be more for religion to
appologize for in the future. The world is not flat, the sun does not
orbit the earth, life evolved on this planet over billions of years.
To suppress this from being discovered again you would have to destroy
most of the extant life on this planet and dig up all the fossil
bearing strata and distroy all the fossils and biological specimens.
If you don't do this, evolution will come back because it is a fact of
nature. Just as much as the earth orbiting the sun.
>
> > > IMO it was The Smithsonian and those well meaning USC professors which
> > > instigated the matter. Then some poor government worker at the
> > > California Science Center,(not wanting to jeopardize his job probably)
> > > caved in.
>
> > No legitimate organizations should be forced to support a bogus scam.
> > If you can demonstrate that ID was legit you would be way ahead of the
> > ID perps themselves.
>
> Ideas Ron. They should not be stopped. No matter how wrong you believe
> they are. Because the tables could turn and someone in power could
> believe your ideas are wrong one day. What would you do?
Tables could turn, but then the dishonest and bogus would have the
power and the real suppression would begin. You know it would, so
what is your beef?
>
> Free people have choices. Therefore all ideas must be heard.
You don't have the right to lie with impunity. You can lie all you
want, but anyone can call you on the lies.
>
> > > This is a clear case of censorship and bullying with attitudes that
> > > undermined the flow of ideas.
>
> > Intimidation and censorship is what these guys live on. �If they had
> > their way what do you think that they would be doing? �What did they
> > do in Kansas when they had the majority? �The deleted evolution, the
> > age of the earth and radiometric dating from the science standards.
> > That is the thing about the misnomer that this organization goes by.
> > They are only inerested in suppressing the rights of others that they
> > do not agree with. �Want to make a bet as to how interested in freedom
> > that this organization is? �Want to bet that the Western values that
> > they want to promote involve Christianity of the fundamentalist
> > variety? �Want to bet that they were just suckers for the ID scam, but
> > are the type that are dishonest enough to bend over and take the
> > switch scam from the ID perps?
>
> > I really don't know if that is the case, and I said as much in my
> > post, but I'm willing to bet you that they are another bogus political
> > organization that isn't interested in both sides only their side. �You
> > likely even understand at some level that I am likely correct about
> > this and you only beef is that it is true and it makes your side look
> > like the losers that they are.
>
> I do not have a "side" Ron.
Probably correct. You do seem less than two dimensional.
>
> But if I had to pick a side, right now, it would be with what is
> already known from history and not from science. This is not because i
> do not respect science but because science cannot lay claim to any
> absolute truths yet.
Who cares about absolute truth in this case? The liars certainly do
not, so why support them?
>
> > > There should be no doubt in people's minds after reading this, that
> > > there is an agenda afoot in America to attack any ideas that are in
> > > opposition to The Theory of Evolution.-
>
> > There is a right wing agenda, where they do not have valid argument
> > and rely on the support of the ignorant, incompetent and or dishonest
> > such as adman. �Isn't that sad? �Wouldn't you want them to depend on
> > more than stupidity and ignorance?
>
> > Where is that honest and valid anti-evolution argument? �Why continue
> > when you haven't found any and you have tried hundreds? �Why support
> > the scam artists that sell youj the bogus junk? �Wouldn't you rather
> > depend on honesty and integrity instead of dishonesty and stupidity?
>
> > Ron Okimoto
>
> How can you ask for "valid and honest" arguments" when you are so
> ready to prevent the free exchange of ideas and alternate views?-
Well if you had honest and valid arguments, you would have a point
about suppression. When there is nothing to suppress, you can't claim
that it is being suppressed.
Ron Okimoto
richardal...@googlemail.com
Actually, you were making yet another display of your ignorance.
>America is far from perfect. But I
> would rather live here then in Europe.
>
> We are off the track though. Europeans seem to find it more acceptable
> to curtail what people can say then in America.
And the evidence on which you base that assertion is....?
> The reasons why are
> unimportant. The free exchange of ideas should never be stifled in the
> manor that was outlined in the OP.
The OP is nothing about the free exchange of ideas. It's about whether
or not religious belief masquerading as science should be promoted in
an institution which in which it is explicitly forbidden by law.
>
> I personally find that type of bullying and intimidation unacceptable.
So you think that the US law against the state promoting any
particular religion should be abolished.
What do you think should be the state religion in the USA?
> maybe people in Europe don't.
And the evidence on which you base that assertion is ....?
We have free speech in Europe. In fact, given the fact that in most
European nations the media are not controlled by a few massive
corporations as is the case in the US, there are rather more outlets
for the exercise of free speech. Do you think that Rupert Murdoch
allows his media outlets to criticise the human rights excesses of
China, for example?
To repeat: one of the most striking aspects of that culture which I
noticed when I lived in the USA is the general profound ignorance of
any nation other than their own, and downright ludicrous notions about
others. You have demonstrated this very clearly.
RF
>
> [\]
Stuart
Clearly the museum could have saved itself the trouble if it did
a little research beforehand and never agreed to show it in the first
place.
Stuart
Greg G.
>
> But I
> would rather live here then in Europe.
Just a little peevish grammar nit-pick:
This sentence says the writer would rather live here first and in
Europe later. There's a difference between the word "then" and the
word "than".
Thank you. I feel better getting that off my chest once in a while.
Kermit
ASI doesn't attend any churches; I suspect none would be able to
tolerate his heretical ideas.
You're quite right; the Southern Baptists would never tolerate this,
and for good reason.
>
> Boikat.
Kermit
Kermit
Nope; I consider myself a champion of the free exchange of ideas.
That means that I have to support the independence of people who wish
to speak in private without interference - like churches. That means
that the government should stay out of religion, which is why the
freedom of religion clause in the constitution is in the *first
amendment. The founding fathers understood that free speech and the
wall of separation of church and state were the foundation of
democracy.
The government *cannot advocate any religion; it's illegal. And it has
no obligation to teach lies and non-science in a science venue.
Kermit
Caranx latus
> On Dec 30, 8:00 am, All-seeing-I <ap...@email.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > But I
> > would rather live here then in Europe.
>
> Just a little peevish grammar nit-pick:
> This sentence says the writer would rather live here first and in
> Europe later. There's a difference between the word "then" and the
> word "than".
If [M]adape were writing in English, you'd be correct. However, there
is every indication that he writes and speaks Yokel, in which those
two words have the same meaning.
Kermit
Yes, you would consider an erudite admonition as such.
>
> The US is the most perfect system on the planet in many respects.
> Unless one LIKES to be controled by a few in the ruling class.
> Aparently you do.
Why would you think that? And apparently you think the US is free of
that. Have you never heard of the Vanderbilts, the Roosevelts, Trump,
Bill Gates? How about the court clowns, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, and
Coulter?
>
>
>
> > You may dismiss them as "communist", but there are nations which are
> > economically successful and with a contented populace but which do not
> > espouse USAian values. They have high levels of taxation which people
> > are prepared to pay because of the solid foundation of welfare it
> > provides.
>
> And the population is poorer, they generally own less of what they can
> consider their own. They work for the government rather then have the
> government work for them. How smart is THAT?
Germany? Sweden?!
We (the USA) do *not have the highest GNP per capita. We do not have
the highest per capita income. When you figure that countries like
Canada and Sweden get health care as good as ours technically, but
universally applied, at half the cost, we compare even less favorably.
We also have a greater disparity between rich and working poor than
Western Europe, so the *average is not the median.
We have the most total wealth, because we are big, and richer than
China, India, or Russia. That is not a lot to brag about.
Several European countries have free universities for all qualified
students - how is that measured for individual wealth?
You have a cartoon view of the world, as you do with religion and
science.
>
> > �They do not suffer from the social tensions created by the
> > vast divide between the haves and the have-nots of the USA, or the way
> > in which that divide limits social mobility.
>
> You have a rather dim view of capitalism. In America, if you have the
> right idea you can go from being one of the "have-not's" to being one
> of the rich and famous.
You can also get the idea stolen. You can have a rich biotech firm
patent your genes. You can be a famous and popular musician who
starves because you only know music, not "intellectual property"
rights law. The richest people here are mostly the ones who got rich
gambling with your money and mine. The idfference is, I don't thank
them for the privilege of getting my pockets picked.
>
> In your nanny-states such as in Europe there is nothing to compel
> success because there is too much welfare.
Bwahahahahaha!
>
> >They do not have a
> > population living in fear of illness because of lack of health
> > insurance, or the fear that if they become ill the corporation which
> > provides insurance will withdraw it, or the fear of bankruptcy because
> > of health costs.
>
> They also do not have to worry if some bureaucrat will decide when
> they live and die.
They decide that now for you, dupe. One fifth of our *workers are
unemployed, and most of those looking for work. People have died
because their insurance companies dropped their coverage.
>
> > They have their own problems. Nobody who has actually lived there
> > would claim that they are perfect societies. There are many admirable
> > aspects of USAian society and culture. However, one of the most
> > striking aspects of that culture which I noticed when I lived in the
> > USA is the general profound ignorance of any nation other than their
> > own, and downright �ludicrous notions about others.
>
> Such drama Richard. Did you survey the entire country or did you draw
> this conclusion from the few that you had contact with and that
> disagreed with you
Other people have surveyed the UK, and England in particular, on many
issues. Ours, too. I know the concept is foreign to you, but this
information is readily available if you look. When I was a kid, we
had to go to the library, buy books, or take classes. Much information
is now at your fingertips.
>
> > > But it seems top me they are trying to catch the mouse when they
> > > should be trying to catch the cat instead. It is the cat that needs to
> > > learn that information and ideas are not to be suppressed with
> > > intimidation and Hitler-type tactics.
>
> > > IMO it was The Smithsonian and those well meaning USC professors which
> > > instigated the matter. Then some poor government worker at the
> > > California Science Center,(not wanting to jeopardize his job probably)
> > > caved in.
>
> > > This is a clear case of censorship and bullying with attitudes that
> > > undermined the flow of ideas.
>
> > > There should be no doubt in people's minds after reading this, that
> > > there is an agenda afoot in America to attack any ideas that are in
> > > opposition to The Theory of Evolution.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
Kermit
Kleuskes & Moos
Hmmm... My sentiments are quite the opposite. Curious...
<irony>
Of course a am european and hence forbidden to say what i like.
</irony>
RAM
You fool read: The Power Elite by C. Wright Mills written in the
1950's and still relevant today.
It provides ample evidence you are stupidly wrong. There is a power
elite/ruling class in the US and you are not part of it.
Thank God.
>
>
> > You may dismiss them as "communist", but there are nations which are
> > economically successful and with a contented populace but which do not
> > espouse USAian values. They have high levels of taxation which people
> > are prepared to pay because of the solid foundation of welfare it
> > provides.
>
> And the population is poorer, they generally own less of what they can
> consider their own. They work for the government rather then have the
> government work for them. How smart is THAT?
But that is not true of most Central European countries.
>
> > �They do not suffer from the social tensions created by the
> > vast divide between the haves and the have-nots of the USA, or the way
> > in which that divide limits social mobility.
>
> You have a rather dim view of capitalism. In America, if you have the
> right idea you can go from being one of the "have-not's" to being one
> of the rich and famous.
And those few count in the one in a million and most often they start
out as scions of millionaires like Gates.
>
> In your nanny-states such as in Europe there is nothing to compel
> success because there is too much welfare.
Bull shit. Peoples aspirations are not dimmed by living in societies
with high levels of social support.
Gates is the Prototype.
>
> >They do not have a
> > population living in fear of illness because of lack of health
> > insurance, or the fear that if they become ill the corporation which
> > provides insurance will withdraw it, or the fear of bankruptcy because
> > of health costs.
>
> They also do not have to worry if some bureaucrat will decide when
> they live and die.
More "bull shit." You are an absolute fool making pronouncements out
of ignorance.
Her in the US it is the "capitalist" insurance companies that decide
when you die. Done routinely when denying or dropping insurance
coverage. In short, in the US you get poor health coverage and die
sooner because of the free market. This is documented by numerous
international studies on health care done here and by other Western
Euro-nations. Your ignorance does not create facts only
factitiousness. Grow up you have teenagers vision of the US.
>
> > They have their own problems. Nobody who has actually lived there
> > would claim that they are perfect societies. There are many admirable
> > aspects of USAian society and culture. However, one of the most
> > striking aspects of that culture which I noticed when I lived in the
> > USA is the general profound ignorance of any nation other than their
> > own, and downright �ludicrous notions about others.
>
> Such drama Richard. Did you survey the entire country or did you draw
> this conclusion from the few that you had contact with and that
> disagreed with you
>
No idiot his empirically adequate information is routinely reported in
European media.
You just don't know what the hell is going on in the rest of the
world. You are the most ethnocentric, egocentric and Christocentric
duffball we have seen on TO since "nameless."
Dan Drake
(in article
<3f58ef4f-f1fc-483f...@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>):
> Rough guess: not on the constitutional and free speech side, very
> possibly on the contract side unless the contract either stipulates an
> unrestricted right to rescind in the fine print, or they explicitly
> (and provably) misled the museum as to the nature of the film.
This badly overstates the strength of their consitutional case. The First
Amendment they refer to is the First Amendment to the Bill of Internet
Trolling Rights, under which one is entitled to be taken serioiusly when
yelling "FIRST AMENDMENT" at anybody who fails to publicize one's opinions
unreservedly.
Or maybe I missed the part where the Science Center became the Congress and
started passing laws by contract?
But you may be absolutely assured that 100% of the people in the AFA are
strict constructionists and original-interpretationists who hate actvist
judges.
--
Dan Drake
d...@dandrake.com
Burkhard
Eh, yes, that's what I said?
> Or maybe I missed the part where the Science Center became the Congress and
> started passing laws by contract?
Not sure what you mean with this. The AFA sues on two alternative
counts: One is the constitutional law/1.amendment issue. As I said, I
can't see that one fly. The other one is violation of their contract
with the Science Centre, a purely private law issue. Not having seen the
contract they have with them, I can't be certain (hence "rough guess")
but if they were promised contractually the use of the premises and
suffered financial loss as part of the non-performance of the S.C. and
their reliance on the promise, then they have a pretty clear tort action.
They won't have one if the contract e.g. stipulates that either party
can withdraw at any time without prejudice, or if the SC can show they
only entered the contract due to misrepresentation.
John Wilkins
<66780f31-6936-479b...@e37g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
Caranx latus <kar...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> On Dec 30, 10:54�am, "Greg G." <ggw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Dec 30, 8:00 am, All-seeing-I <ap...@email.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > But I
> > > would rather live here then in Europe.
> >
> > Just a little peevish grammar nit-pick:
> > This sentence says the writer would rather live here first and in
> > Europe later. There's a difference between the word "then" and the
> > word "than".
>
> If [M]adape were writing in English, you'd be correct. However, there
> is every indication that he writes and speaks Yokel, in which those
> two words have the same meaning.
Words have meanings in Yokel?
All-Seeing-I
> On Dec 30, 3:47�am, All-seeing-I <ap...@email.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 30, 4:39�am, "richardalanforr...@googlemail.com"
>
> > <richardalanforr...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > Such drama Richard. Did you survey the entire country or did you draw
> > this conclusion from the few that you had contact with and that
> > disagreed with you
>
> Other people have surveyed the UK, and England in particular, on many
> issues. Ours, too. I know the concept is foreign to you, but this
> had to go to the library, buy books, or take classes. Much information
> is now at your fingertips.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > > But it seems top me they are trying to catch the mouse when they
> > > > should be trying to catch the cat instead. It is the cat that needs to
> > > > learn that information and ideas are not to be suppressed with
> > > > intimidation and Hitler-type tactics.
>
> > > > IMO it was The Smithsonian and those well meaning USC professors which
> > > > instigated the matter. Then some poor government worker at the
> > > > California Science Center,(not wanting to jeopardize his job probably)
> > > > caved in.
>
> > > > This is a clear case of censorship and bullying with attitudes that
> > > > undermined the flow of ideas.
>
> > > > There should be no doubt in people's minds after reading this, that
> > > > there is an agenda afoot in America to attack any ideas that are in
> > > > opposition to The Theory of Evolution
Maybe you should move to Europe.
I bet within a year you will come crawling back.
Especially if you move to that toilet called the UK.
Here are some facts before you go:
Germany:
The DIW researchers point out that far more people have fallen below
this middle layer than have risen above it. �Available real incomes
increased only moderately in Germany since reunification; from 2003 to
2006 they have clearly decreased.�
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/mar2008/germ-m22.shtml
The UK
Britain's middle classes face the biggest financial squeeze for
decades that will drastically affect their living standards, according
to new research.
The findings show the typical family will face a decline in their
income of around �300 - or 2.4 per cent - next year through higher
taxes, mortgages and rises in the costs of
Italy:
Chronicling struggles of Italy�s �New Poor�
This is about a new poor. It is about the poor who can�t beg. They are
well-dressed. They are working. And they don�t have the energy to look
for better answers.�
http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2008/jan/13/opinion/chi-corr_italyjan13
Spain:
Spain's new middle classes slip into poverty
Spain's problems can be seen in ranks of brand new, empty apartment
blocks, abandoned building sites and deserted shopping centres that
ring Madrid -- a situation Nobel-prize winning economist Paul Krugman
likens to California and Florida.
Spain faces a summer of rising social tension as dole payments end for
some unemployed people, and the desperate blame immigrants for their
problems or say they are tempted to steal rather than go hungry.
Canada:
The shrinking of the Canadian middle class
http://crofsblogs.typepad.com/gap/2007/05/the_shrinking_o.html
UD GDP Forcasu UP
Jun 2010 14,307 84 188
You do the math.
Burkhard
> On Dec 30, 10:47 am, Kermit <unrestrained_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 30, 3:47 am, All-seeing-I <ap...@email.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Dec 30, 4:39 am, "richardalanforr...@googlemail.com"
>>> <richardalanforr...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> Such drama Richard. Did you survey the entire country or did you draw
>>> this conclusion from the few that you had contact with and that
>>> disagreed with you
>> Other people have surveyed the UK, and England in particular, on many
>> issues. Ours, too. I know the concept is foreign to you, but this
a hint.
here is some stats the corresponding US situation:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/elizabeth-warren/america-without-a-middle_b_377829.html
Mark Isaak
If this is the case I think it is, their contract stipulated that any
prior publicity be approved by the California Science Center. Then the
Discovery Institute started publicizing the event without such approval.
The CSC was not the party which broke the contract.
All-Seeing-I, I expect, will still think the CSC is in the wrong, because
contracts are a threat to capitialism or something.
--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) earthlink (dot) net
"It is certain, from experience, that the smallest grain of natural
honesty and benevolence has more effect on men's conduct, than the most
pompous views suggested by theological theories and systems." - D. Hume
bpuharic
<allse...@usa.com> wrote:
>
>Maybe you should move to Europe.
and you'd feel more comfortable in saudi arabia. there, religion is
rampant and controls society
>
>Canada:
>The shrinking of the Canadian middle class
>http://crofsblogs.typepad.com/gap/2007/05/the_shrinking_o.html
you do realize the canadian banking sector shrank alot less than ours
because they had more regulation than we do, right?
and the US middle class hasn't had a pay increase in 30 years, since
the time of reagan, when corrected for inflation. the richest 1%,
however, have had their incomes skyrocket
Dan Drake
(in article <hhg96n$adq$1...@news.albasani.net>):
Yes, I was merely advocating a rather stronger statement of it than a polite
guess of "not".
>
>> Or maybe I missed the part where the Science Center became the Congress and
>> started passing laws by contract?
>
> Not sure what you mean with this. The AFA sues on two alternative
> counts: One is the constitutional law/1.amendment issue. As I said, I
> can't see that one fly.
And on that one, the science cneter might possibly have a case to answer if
they were the Congress passing laws, as specified in the F.A. Otherwise, not
so much.
The other one is violation of their contract
> with the Science Centre, a purely private law issue. Not having seen the
> contract they have with them, I can't be certain (hence "rough guess")
> but if they were promised contractually the use of the premises and
> suffered financial loss as part of the non-performance of the S.C. and
> their reliance on the promise, then they have a pretty clear tort action.
>
> They won't have one if the contract e.g. stipulates that either party
> can withdraw at any time without prejudice, or if the SC can show they
> only entered the contract due to misrepresentation.
>
>>
>> But you may be absolutely assured that 100% of the people in the AFA are
>> strict constructionists and original-interpretationists who hate actvist
>> judges.
>>
>
--
Dan Drake
d...@dandrake.com
richardal...@googlemail.com
> > > > > caved in.
>
> > > > > This is a clear case of censorship and bullying with attitudes that
> > > > > undermined the flow of ideas.
>
> > > > > There should be no doubt in people's minds after reading this, that
> > > > > there is an agenda afoot in America to attack any ideas that are in
> > > > > opposition to The Theory of Evolution
>
> Maybe you should move to Europe.
>
> I bet within a year you will come crawling back.
>
> Especially if you move to that toilet called the UK.
Oh my word! He resorts to petty insult!
>
> Here are some facts before you go:
Facts? There's a novelty for you!
>
> Germany:
> The DIW researchers point out that far more people have fallen below
> this middle layer than have risen above it. Available real incomes
> increased only moderately in Germany since reunification; from 2003 to
> 2006 they have clearly decreased.
>
> http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/mar2008/germ-m22.shtml
So you think that the International Committee of the Fourth
International (ICFI) is an authoritative source of information. How
quaint.
I worked in the former East Germany only a few years after German
unification, and witnessed at first hand the economic devastation
caused by the old regiem. What amazed me then, and what still amazes
me is how quickly the Germans managed to rebuild the infrastructure of
the East, and cope with the enormous cost of doing so. What is also
striking about the German economy is how they have managed to maintain
a strong manufacturing industry in spite of competition from the low-
cost economies not only of the far East and India, but of the former
communist block nations in Europe. That's why they are still the
world's biggest exporting nation, and why they have been affected less
by the world economic crash than many other major nations.
Income inequality is growing more or less everywhere, and more so in
the USA than in most places.
>
> The UK
>
> Britain's middle classes face the biggest financial squeeze for
> decades that will drastically affect their living standards, according
> to new research.
> The findings show the typical family will face a decline in their
> income of around 300 - or 2.4 per cent - next year through higher
> taxes, mortgages and rises in the costs of
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1233757/Living-standards-drop...
That's what happens in a recession. It's happening in the USA.
>
> Italy:
> Chronicling struggles of Italy s New Poor
>
> This is about a new poor. It is about the poor who can t beg. They are
> well-dressed. They are working. And they don t have the energy to look
> for better answers.
>
> http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2008/jan/13/opinion/chi-corr_italy...
So you'd rather be poor in the USA and not have the social wellfare
system of Italy?
This is an article about the increasing gulf between the haves and
have-nots in Italy. The gulf is increasing more quickly, and to a far
greater extent in the USA.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/14/income-inequality-is-at-a_n_259516.html
>
> Spain:
> Spain's new middle classes slip into poverty
>
> Spain's problems can be seen in ranks of brand new, empty apartment
> blocks, abandoned building sites and deserted shopping centres that
> ring Madrid -- a situation Nobel-prize winning economist Paul Krugman
> likens to California and Florida.
> Spain faces a summer of rising social tension as dole payments end for
> some unemployed people, and the desperate blame immigrants for their
> problems or say they are tempted to steal rather than go hungry.
It's called a "recession". It leads to increasing levels of
unemployment. It's happening in the USA as well.
>
> Canada:
> The shrinking of the Canadian middle classhttp://crofsblogs.typepad.com/gap/2007/05/the_shrinking_o.html
>
> UD GDP Forcasu UP
> Jun 2010 14,307 84 188
>
> You do the math.
I've done the "math". But then, unlike you, I am capable of
understanding the result.
RF
Ye Old One
>
>Maybe you should move to Europe.
>
>I bet within a year you will come crawling back.
[snip crap.]
There has been, in fact there still is, a very big world-wide economic
crash. One largely caused by the US banking system.
As far as G7 countries go I believe I'm right in saying you have a
larger percentage of your population classified as "in poverty" and
any of the rest.
You are starting to get your act together, the latest health reforms
are important but they do not go far enough. Until you have universal
healthcare you will always have an underclass of people that don't
even stand a chance of escaping poverty.
Oh, and as for USians moving to Europe, a lot do, and many end up
staying because our standards of living are better.
--
Bob.
You have not been charged for this lesson - learn from it rather than
continuing to make a fool of yourself.
All-Seeing-I
FOR PLAGIARIZING AND COPYRIGHT INFRINGMENT
Caranx latus
> **SHUNNED**
>
> FOR PLAGIARIZING AND COPYRIGHT INFRINGMENT
Dude, you're doing the opposite of shunning. You're hopping around
from thread to thread looking for YOO posts so that you can give him
the attention that rightly should be yours. Recognize your behavior
for what it is.
All-seeing-I
heh... i was not "hopping around looking for YOO" posts fish...
rofl!
He has followed me around with that list for a year. I can't poke some
fun back at him?
sheesh....
Caranx latus
Of course you can. Must you sink to his level to do it?
> sheesh....
All-Seeing-I
Sure there is an elite ruling class in America. Who said otherwise?
Your reading skills are only second to boikat when it comes to
comprehension.
The American elite still have to operate under the american "system".
Which as I said, is one of the best in the world.
Don't blame me if you cannot read
> > > You may dismiss them as "communist", but there are nations which are
> > > economically successful and with a contented populace but which do not
> > > espouse USAian values. They have high levels of taxation which people
> > > are prepared to pay because of the solid foundation of welfare it
> > > provides.
>
> > And the population is poorer, they generally own less of what they can
> > consider their own. They work for the government rather then have the
> > government work for them. How smart is THAT?
>
> But that is not true of most Central European countries.
Spain, Italy, all in bad shape. France is torn apart. And the UK is
going to become unrecognizable due to political correctness.
> > > �They do not suffer from the social tensions created by the
> > > vast divide between the haves and the have-nots of the USA, or the way
> > > in which that divide limits social mobility.
>
> > You have a rather dim view of capitalism. In America, if you have the
> > right idea you can go from being one of the "have-not's" to being one
> > of the rich and famous.
>
> And those few count in the one in a million and most often they start
> out as scions of millionaires like Gates.
Gates was broke. many have "made it".
If you haven't, don;t blame the system. Look in the mirror
> > In your nanny-states such as in Europe there is nothing to compel
> > success because there is too much welfare.
>
> Bull shit. �Peoples aspirations are not dimmed by living in societies
> with high levels of social support.
> Gates is the Prototype.
People will work less hard when they hardly have to work.
That's just human nature.
> > >They do not have a
> > > population living in fear of illness because of lack of health
> > > insurance, or the fear that if they become ill the corporation which
> > > provides insurance will withdraw it, or the fear of bankruptcy because
> > > of health costs.
>
> > They also do not have to worry if some bureaucrat will decide when
> > they live and die.
>
> More "bull shit." �You are an absolute fool making pronouncements out
> of ignorance.
>
> Her in the US it is the "capitalist" insurance companies that decide
> when you die. � Done routinely when denying or dropping insurance
> coverage. �In short, in the US you get poor health coverage and die
> sooner because of the free market. �This is documented by numerous
> international studies on health care done here and by other Western
> Euro-nations. �Your ignorance does not create facts only
> factitiousness. Grow up you have teenagers vision of the US.
Maybe you are boikat. They are dying because of UNaffordable health
insurance.
>
> > > They have their own problems. Nobody who has actually lived there
> > > would claim that they are perfect societies. There are many admirable
> > > aspects of USAian society and culture. However, one of the most
> > > striking aspects of that culture which I noticed when I lived in the
> > > USA is the general profound ignorance of any nation other than their
> > > own, and downright �ludicrous notions about others.
>
> > Such drama Richard. Did you survey the entire country or did you draw
> > this conclusion from the few that you had contact with and that
> > disagreed with you
>
> No idiot his empirically adequate information is routinely reported in
> European media.
>
> You just don't know what the hell is going on in the rest of the
> world. �You are the most ethnocentric, egocentric and Christocentric
> duffball we have seen on TO since "nameless."
Say THAT 3x's Dorothy. See if you land in kansas.
> > > > But it seems top me they are trying to catch the mouse when they
> > > > should be trying to catch the cat instead. It is the cat that needs to
> > > > learn that information and ideas are not to be suppressed with
> > > > intimidation and Hitler-type tactics.
>
> > > > IMO it was The Smithsonian and those well meaning USC professors which
> > > > instigated the matter. Then some poor government worker at the
> > > > California Science Center,(not wanting to jeopardize his job probably)
> > > > caved in.
>
> > > > This is a clear case of censorship and bullying with attitudes that
> > > > undermined the flow of ideas.
>
> > > > There should be no doubt in people's minds after reading this, that
> > > > there is an agenda afoot in America to attack any ideas that are in
> > > > opposition to The Theory of Evolution.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
idiot.
All-seeing-I
When in Rome fish...
besides. I can't killfile him using google.
So i may as well have some fun with his dumb ass once in a while.
>
>
>
> > sheesh....- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Caranx latus
> On Dec 31, 4:47 pm, Caranx latus <kar...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
<snip>
> > > > > **SHUNNED**
>
> > > > > FOR PLAGIARIZING AND COPYRIGHT INFRINGMENT
>
> > > > Dude, you're doing the opposite of shunning. You're hopping around
> > > > from thread to thread looking for YOO posts so that you can give him
> > > > the attention that rightly should be yours. Recognize your behavior
> > > > for what it is.
>
> > > heh... i was not "hopping around looking for YOO" posts fish...
>
> > > rofl!
>
> > > He has followed me around with that list for a year. I can't poke some
> > > fun back at him?
>
> > Of course you can. Must you sink to his level to do it?
>
> When in Rome fish...
I am truly inspired by the immediacy and decisiveness that you exhibit
in choosing the moral low ground over the high ground whenever that
choice presents itself to you.
RAM
You right up there- your quote: "The US is the most perfect system on
the planet in many respects. Unless one LIKES to be controled by a
few in the ruling class. Aparently you do."
Now lets see how you rewrite this.
> Your reading skills are only second to boikat when it comes to
> comprehension.
Your memory comprehension is the real problem and being a loony only
makes it worse.
>
> The American elite still have to operate under the american "system".
> Which as I said, is one of the best in the world.
Ethnocentric assertions are what you are all about. But there are
more democratic structures in Europe: Sweden, Denmark and Norway come
to mind.
>
> Don't blame me if you cannot read
It is your memory; you post so much bull shit you can keep track of
it.
>
> > > > You may dismiss them as "communist", but there are nations which are
> > > > economically successful and with a contented populace but which do not
> > > > espouse USAian values. They have high levels of taxation which people
> > > > are prepared to pay because of the solid foundation of welfare it
> > > > provides.
>
> > > And the population is poorer, they generally own less of what they can
> > > consider their own. They work for the government rather then have the
> > > government work for them. How smart is THAT?
>
> > But that is not true of most Central European countries.
>
> Spain, Italy, all in bad shape. France is torn apart. And the UK is
> going to become unrecognizable due to political correctness.
BS
>
> > > > �They do not suffer from the social tensions created by the
> > > > vast divide between the haves and the have-nots of the USA, or the way
> > > > in which that divide limits social mobility.
>
> > > You have a rather dim view of capitalism. In America, if you have the
> > > right idea you can go from being one of the "have-not's" to being one
> > > of the rich and famous.
>
> > And those few count in the one in a million and most often they start
> > out as scions of millionaires like Gates.
>
> Gates was broke.
Idiot
Gates' father was a very successful business man in Seattle.
many have "made it".
>
> If you haven't, don;t blame the system. Look in the mirror
>
> > > In your nanny-states such as in Europe there is nothing to compel
> > > success because there is too much welfare.
>
> > Bull shit. �Peoples aspirations are not dimmed by living in societies
> > with high levels of social support.
> > Gates is the Prototype.
>
> People will work less hard when they hardly have to work.
BS
>
> That's just human nature.
BS
>
>
>
>
>
> > > >They do not have a
> > > > population living in fear of illness because of lack of health
> > > > insurance, or the fear that if they become ill the corporation which
> > > > provides insurance will withdraw it, or the fear of bankruptcy because
> > > > of health costs.
>
> > > They also do not have to worry if some bureaucrat will decide when
> > > they live and die.
>
> > More "bull shit." �You are an absolute fool making pronouncements out
> > of ignorance.
>
> > Her in the US it is the "capitalist" insurance companies that decide
> > when you die. � Done routinely when denying or dropping insurance
> > coverage. �In short, in the US you get poor health coverage and die
> > sooner because of the free market. �This is documented by numerous
> > international studies on health care done here and by other Western
> > Euro-nations. �Your ignorance does not create facts only
> > factitiousness. Grow up you have teenagers vision of the US.
>
> Maybe you are boikat. They are dying because of UNaffordable health
> insurance.
>
BS
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > > They have their own problems. Nobody who has actually lived there
> > > > would claim that they are perfect societies. There are many admirable
> > > > aspects of USAian society and culture. However, one of the most
> > > > striking aspects of that culture which I noticed when I lived in the
> > > > USA is the general profound ignorance of any nation other than their
> > > > own, and downright �ludicrous notions about others.
>
> > > Such drama Richard. Did you survey the entire country or did you draw
> > > this conclusion from the few that you had contact with and that
> > > disagreed with you
>
> > No idiot his empirically adequate information is routinely reported in
> > European media.
>
> > You just don't know what the hell is going on in the rest of the
> > world. �You are the most ethnocentric, egocentric and Christocentric
> > duffball we have seen on TO since "nameless."
>
> Say THAT 3x's Dorothy. See if you land in kansas.
>
BS
>
>
>
>
> > > > > But it seems top me they are trying to catch the mouse when they
> > > > > should be trying to catch the cat instead. It is the cat that needs to
> > > > > learn that information and ideas are not to be suppressed with
> > > > > intimidation and Hitler-type tactics.
>
> > > > > IMO it was The Smithsonian and those well meaning USC professors which
> > > > > instigated the matter. Then some poor government worker at the
> > > > > California Science Center,(not wanting to jeopardize his job probably)
> > > > > caved in.
>
> > > > > This is a clear case of censorship and bullying with attitudes that
> > > > > undermined the flow of ideas.
>
> > > > > There should be no doubt in people's minds after reading this, that
> > > > > there is an agenda afoot in America to attack any ideas that are in
> > > > > opposition to The Theory of Evolution.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> idiot.
I can document my statements. You assert so much BS you couldn't
possibly keep up with it.
richardal...@googlemail.com
>
> > You fool read: The Power Elite by C. Wright Mills written in the
> > 1950's and still relevant today.
> > It provides ample evidence you are stupidly wrong. �There is a power
> > elite/ruling class in the US and you are not part of it.
> > Thank God.
>
> Sure there is an elite ruling class in America. Who said otherwise?
> Your reading skills are only second to boikat when it comes to
> comprehension.
>
> The American elite still have to operate under the american "system".
> Which as I said, is one of the best in the world.
And the evidence on which you base this is ....?
>
> Don't blame me if you cannot read
We can, however, blame you if you refuse to learn anything about the
subjects on which you pontificate.
>
>
> > But that is not true of most Central European countries.
>
> Spain, Italy, all in bad shape.
And the evidence on which you base this assertion is....?
> France is torn apart.
And the evidence on which you base this assertion is...?
> And the UK is
> going to become unrecognizable due to political correctness.
As a UK citizen, I can assure you that this is not the case. What do
you know about the UK that I don't?
>
> > And those few count in the one in a million and most often they start
> > out as scions of millionaires like Gates.
>
> Gates was broke. many have "made it".
Actually, fewer make it in the USA than in many other western
democracies. The USA has less social mobility that, for example
Canada, Finland, Sweden and Norway - all countries with a far more
robust system of welfare than the US.
>
> If you haven't, don;t blame the system. Look in the mirror
Tell that to the socially disadvantaged in the USA.
>
> > > In your nanny-states such as in Europe there is nothing to compel
> > > success because there is too much welfare.
>
> > Bull shit. �Peoples aspirations are not dimmed by living in societies
> > with high levels of social support.
> > Gates is the Prototype.
>
> People will work less hard when they hardly have to work.
So how do you explain the fact that nations with a far better level of
welfare - such as Germany and Swededn - have sound and productive
economies?
>
> That's just human nature.
As the evidence shows that you are wrong, perhaps your understanding
of human nature is wrong as well.
>
>
>
>
> > More "bull shit." �You are an absolute fool making pronouncements out
> > of ignorance.
>
> > Her in the US it is the "capitalist" insurance companies that decide
> > when you die. � Done routinely when denying or dropping insurance
> > coverage. �In short, in the US you get poor health coverage and die
> > sooner because of the free market. �This is documented by numerous
> > international studies on health care done here and by other Western
> > Euro-nations. �Your ignorance does not create facts only
> > factitiousness. Grow up you have teenagers vision of the US.
>
> Maybe you are boikat. They are dying because of UNaffordable health
> insurance.
>
So you think that it's morally acceptable that people should die
because an insurance company withdraws support.
Glad we're clear on that.
>
>
> > > Such drama Richard. Did you survey the entire country or did you draw
> > > this conclusion from the few that you had contact with and that
> > > disagreed with you
>
> > No idiot his empirically adequate information is routinely reported in
> > European media.
>
> > You just don't know what the hell is going on in the rest of the
> > world. �You are the most ethnocentric, egocentric and Christocentric
> > duffball we have seen on TO since "nameless."
>
> Say THAT 3x's Dorothy. See if you land in kansas.
Evasion noted.
As a matter of idle curiosity, do you consider ignorance to be a
virtue? The content of your posts suggests this.
>
>
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> idiot.
...and once again he descends into empty invective when his ignorance
is exposed.
How utterly boring and predictable.
RF
Ye Old One
<allse...@usa.com> enriched this group when s/he wrote:
As I keep saying, you really should be shunned. However, as I've also
said many times that would give you an easy way out - a way to escape
and not face up to at least these two examples of your past stupid
claims.
1) That the actor Paul Newman was a creationist...
[Message-ID: <e3xDk.44738$De7....@bignews7.bellsouth.net>]
2) That "Dr." Kent Hovind has made lots of *scientific* discoveries...
[Message-ID: <3Olyk.31543$Ep1....@bignews2.bellsouth.net>]
Now, all you have to do is justify them, with evidence of course, or
finally admit you were a fool to make them.
Or are you just going to go on being a cowardly lying troll?
--
Bob.
When D-G made Madman out of clay he forgot to magic the brain. I think
that explains everything.
John Stockwell
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> their ideas? The only thing that separates America from the rest of
> the world is the fact that we protect ideas no matter how different
> they are and no matter how much we may disagree with them. We even
> protect Atheism.
Creationism is pseudoscience. It has no place at a *Science* center.