Art-making or religious Apes ?
Jeff B.
I am very surprised by some bahaviours observed among some superior
primates like chimps or bonobos.
I have seen chimpanzee females conspiring to deceive the males of their
small group (by sending them false alert signs in a chosen direction)
to get food only for themselves.
I have seen another female in a lab learning a protolanguage
comprising more than 100 words and asking an experimentator for a
banana he promised her the day before. Using these words, one of the
difficult male told about how he saw his mother embushed, beheaded, and
eaten by men.
They can have a complex social organization that take care of the
youngest as well as the oldest or weakened ones. A chimp can have
affection for a small and fragile creature like a cat and be very upset
(mourning) at its death, as well as they can display obvious signs of
pain or even when one of their own dies (grouping in silence around
him). Some other ape species simply do not understand death (a mother
can carry and still try to feed her baby for a fews days after his
death).
There have rituals linked to heavy rain falls, some have been seen
grouping and gazing silently at a sunset.
There are so many signs of an emotional life:
Can apes make art ?
Have apes already been observed burying or displaying a ritual around
their deads ?
Should any ape evolve toward religiosity, what kind of behaviours are
to be expected ?
Thanks !
Jean-François B.
Tony Raymonds
B. <jeff...@yahoo.fr> writes
>Should any ape evolve toward religiosity, what kind of behaviours are
>to be expected ?
http://www.science-spirit.org/article_detail.php?article_id=229
--
to...@wacky.zzn.com
Ye Old One
this group when s/he wrote:
>Can apes make art ?
Yes, all of the great apes have shown individuals with a love of
painting.
>Have apes already been observed burying or displaying a ritual around
>their deads ?
In the wild apes have been known to cover up their dead or hide them,
but no ritual as such. They certainly grieve their dead quite often.
>Should any ape evolve toward religiosity, what kind of behaviours are
>to be expected ?
Reduced intelligence.
--
Bob.
Robert J. Kolker
> Hello,
> I am very surprised by some bahaviours observed among some superior
> primates like chimps or bonobos.
> I have seen chimpanzee females conspiring to deceive the males of their
> small group (by sending them false alert signs in a chosen direction)
> to get food only for themselves.
That sounds like monkey business to me.
> I have seen another female in a lab learning a protolanguage
> comprising more than 100 words and asking an experimentator for a
> banana he promised her the day before. Using these words, one of the
> difficult male told about how he saw his mother embushed, beheaded, and
> eaten by men.
> They can have a complex social organization that take care of the
> youngest as well as the oldest or weakened ones. A chimp can have
> affection for a small and fragile creature like a cat and be very upset
> (mourning) at its death, as well as they can display obvious signs of
> pain or even when one of their own dies (grouping in silence around
> him). Some other ape species simply do not understand death (a mother
> can carry and still try to feed her baby for a fews days after his
> death).
And then it begins to stink.
Bob Kolker
>
Robert J. Kolker
their deads ?
> Should any ape evolve toward religiosity, what kind of behaviours are
> to be expected ?
Chimps gathered around a T.V. listening to Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell
and the 700 Club.
Bob Kolker
Jeff B.
religiosity has always meant a reduced intelligence (competitive
disadvantage), it should never have happened ?
Jeff
Mike Dworetsky
news:1140176329....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Hello,
> I am very surprised by some bahaviours observed among some superior
> primates like chimps or bonobos.
> I have seen chimpanzee females conspiring to deceive the males of their
> small group (by sending them false alert signs in a chosen direction)
> to get food only for themselves.
> I have seen another female in a lab learning a protolanguage
> comprising more than 100 words and asking an experimentator for a
> banana he promised her the day before. Using these words, one of the
> difficult male told about how he saw his mother embushed, beheaded, and
> eaten by men.
> They can have a complex social organization that take care of the
> youngest as well as the oldest or weakened ones. A chimp can have
> affection for a small and fragile creature like a cat and be very upset
> (mourning) at its death, as well as they can display obvious signs of
> pain or even when one of their own dies (grouping in silence around
> him). Some other ape species simply do not understand death (a mother
> can carry and still try to feed her baby for a fews days after his
> death).
> There have rituals linked to heavy rain falls, some have been seen
> grouping and gazing silently at a sunset.
> There are so many signs of an emotional life:
> Can apes make art ?
I don't know if it is art or just a chimp having loads of fun, but a few
years ago a chimp did some paintings that were shown in a London gallery and
sold for decent prices as new, vibrant abstract art. Then they revealed who
had painted the works.
In fact I don't think this much affected the prices, or maybe the values
even went up.
> Have apes already been observed burying or displaying a ritual around
> their deads ?
I've heard this. Another species that exhibits mourning for the dead is the
African elephant. Elephants are very intelligent.
> Should any ape evolve toward religiosity, what kind of behaviours are
> to be expected ?
I'm not sure mourning for the dead, or feelings of emotion, are necessarily
something that would lead to religion or superstition. Part of the problem
is that we tend to project our own thoughts and concepts onto behaviour of
other species when such behaviour may mean something very different. So we
might say that chimps gathering to watch a sunset is an admiration session
for their god, when actually they are gathering to see where the best
termites might be found when they come out at dusk, or maybe it's a mating
behaviour, etc.
--
Mike Dworetsky
(Remove "pants" spamblock to send e-mail)
JohnN
Jeff B. wrote:
> Should any ape evolve toward religiosity, what kind of behaviours are
> to be expected ?
NASCAR.
JohnN
Ye Old One
this group when s/he wrote:
But it did.
--
Bob.
Jeff B.
>years ago a chimp did some paintings that were shown in a London gallery and
>sold for decent prices as new, vibrant abstract art. Then they revealed who
>had painted the works.
I have seen these art pieces but it seems more like a cultural
contamination :-) a captive chimp mimicking a cultural trait observed
among humans ? I wonder if apes can have developped their own
anaesthetic sensitivity, their own inclination to some primitive art
form, in their own natural environment, for their only use.
>In fact I don't think this much affected the prices, or maybe the values
>even went up.
>> Have apes already been observed burying or displaying a ritual around
>> their deads ?
>I've heard this. Another species that exhibits mourning for the dead is the
>African elephant. Elephants are very intelligent.
It can be less romantic: some adult male gorillas have been observed
snatching a dead baby from his mother... to eat it. But some other apes
seem to take care of the dead body: i wonder if they can burry it, or
cover it with leaves... it could as well be to conceal it from
predators for exemple.
>> Should any ape evolve toward religiosity, what kind of behaviours are
>> to be expected ?
>I'm not sure mourning for the dead, or feelings of emotion, are necessarily
>something that would lead to religion or superstition. Part of the problem
>is that we tend to project our own thoughts and concepts onto behaviour of
>other species when such behaviour may mean something very different. So we
>might say that chimps gathering to watch a sunset is an admiration session
>for their god, when actually they are gathering to see where the best
>termites might be found when they come out at dusk, or maybe it's a mating
>behaviour, etc.
If alternative explanations can be put forward for a given behaviour, i
do think they are ruled out or at least presented. But sure, there is
this tendancy to romanticize primate behavior or to project our own
traits: primatologists seem well aware of this anthropocentric bias.
Jeff
found about ape emotions , culture and morality:
http://www.originsnet.org/chimpspirit161k.pdf
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2001/2001-4.html
Jeff B.
>years ago a chimp did some paintings that were shown in a London gallery and
>sold for decent prices as new, vibrant abstract art. Then they revealed who
>had painted the works.
I have seen these art pieces but it seems more like a cultural
contamination :-) a captive chimp mimicking a cultural trait observed
among humans ? I wonder if apes can have developped their own
anaesthetic sensitivity, their own inclination to some primitive art
form, in their own natural environment, for their only use.
>In fact I don't think this much affected the prices, or maybe the values
>even went up.
>> Have apes already been observed burying or displaying a ritual around
>> their deads ?
>I've heard this. Another species that exhibits mourning for the dead is the
>African elephant. Elephants are very intelligent.
It can be less romantic: some adult male gorillas have been observed
snatching a dead baby from his mother... to eat it. But some other apes
seem to take care of the dead body: i wonder if they can burry it, or
cover it with leaves... it could as well be to conceal it from
predators for exemple.
>> Should any ape evolve toward religiosity, what kind of behaviours are
>> to be expected ?
>I'm not sure mourning for the dead, or feelings of emotion, are necessarily
>something that would lead to religion or superstition. Part of the problem
>is that we tend to project our own thoughts and concepts onto behaviour of
>other species when such behaviour may mean something very different. So we
>might say that chimps gathering to watch a sunset is an admiration session
>for their god, when actually they are gathering to see where the best
>termites might be found when they come out at dusk, or maybe it's a mating
>behaviour, etc.
If alternative explanations can be put forward for a given behaviour, i
Dana Tweedy
> I am very surprised by some bahaviours observed among some superior
> primates like chimps or bonobos.
Apes like chimps and bonobos are not "superior". They are just another
species on the family tree. Humans are not the top of the "ladder".
> I have seen chimpanzee females conspiring to deceive the males of their
> small group (by sending them false alert signs in a chosen direction)
> to get food only for themselves.
> I have seen another female in a lab learning a protolanguage
> comprising more than 100 words and asking an experimentator for a
> banana he promised her the day before. Using these words, one of the
> difficult male told about how he saw his mother embushed, beheaded, and
> eaten by men.
> They can have a complex social organization that take care of the
> youngest as well as the oldest or weakened ones. A chimp can have
> affection for a small and fragile creature like a cat and be very upset
> (mourning) at its death, as well as they can display obvious signs of
> pain or even when one of their own dies (grouping in silence around
> him). Some other ape species simply do not understand death (a mother
> can carry and still try to feed her baby for a fews days after his
> death).
> There have rituals linked to heavy rain falls, some have been seen
> grouping and gazing silently at a sunset.
> There are so many signs of an emotional life:
> Can apes make art ?
Humans are apes, and they make art.
> Have apes already been observed burying or displaying a ritual around
> their deads ?
Humans have.
> Should any ape evolve toward religiosity, what kind of behaviours are
> to be expected ?
Evolution doesn't have a direction to "evolve toward". Chimps are not
incompletely "evolved" creatures. There is no goal of humanity for them to
reach.
DJT
Walter Bushell
Now, now. Those guys are below the bonobo's intelligence. They'd be
Jimmy Carter Baptists.
--
"The power of the Executive to cast a man into prison without formulating any
charge known to the law, and particularly to deny him the judgement of his
peers, is in the highest degree odious and is the foundation of all totali-
tarian government whether Nazi or Communist." -- W. Churchill, Nov 21, 1943
Jeff B.
>> I am very surprised by some bahaviours observed among some superior
>> primates like chimps or bonobos.
> Apes like chimps and bonobos are not "superior".
sorry, i meant "great apes".
> They are just another species on the family tree. Humans are not the top of the "ladder".
it certainly depends the ladder (indicator, measure, cost function,...)
you use to reach the family tree members: i am sure we can find a
ladder enabling humans to be the top of it (isn't the encephalization
quotient ladder a good start ?).
> Humans are apes, and they make art.
i should have made clear i was looking for non-human apes.
>> Have apes already been observed burying or displaying a ritual around
>> their deads ?
> Humans have.
again: do you know of any other ape doing so ?
>> Should any ape evolve toward religiosity, what kind of behaviours are
>> to be expected ?
>Evolution doesn't have a direction to "evolve toward".
I was focussing on the evolution of the great apes (not the whole tree
of life)
One of these great ape (human) is engaged into a specific evolutive
trajectory (genetic, social organization and culture).
Some great apes have already developped complex social organizations
(you have to get the cognitive apparatus to live into such org.), and i
was wondering if they could have followed a similar path to the human
ape (provided he does not erradicate them) which seems to be a
catalytic loop between brain and culture/social organization. well, i
am not sure i am more clear or you will agree more :-)
>Chimps are not incompletely "evolved" creatures.
When i read such a sentence, i immediately ask to myself: what is a
completely evolved creature ?
>There is no goal of humanity for them to reach.
Their most immediate goal seems to become "extinct species".
Jeff