Evolution is fundamentally a random process

[Glenn]

"5 Processes That Make Evolution RANDOM"

https://medium.com/countdown-education/5-processes-that-make-evolution-random-87cedc3c3866

Take that, Darwinists!

[RonO]

This isn't news or much of anything that hasn't been understood for most
of the last century. Do you have some reason for posting it?

Natural selection isn't on the list because it is a nonrandom process in
terms of genetic variation that improves fitness in a particular
environment is selected for.

Ron Okimoto

[Glenn]

On Saturday, September 24, 2022 at 12:30:20 PM UTC-7, Ron O wrote:
> On 9/24/2022 12:36 PM, Glenn wrote:
> > "5 Processes That Make Evolution RANDOM"
> >
> > https://medium.com/countdown-education/5-processes-that-make-evolution-random-87cedc3c3866
> >
> > Take that, Darwinists!
> >
> This isn't news or much of anything that hasn't been understood for most
> of the last century. Do you have some reason for posting it?

To hear you say "nothing to see here, move along" once more.

>
> Natural selection isn't on the list because it is a nonrandom process in
> terms of genetic variation that improves fitness in a particular
> environment is selected for.
>

How come you speak for the reason why "natural selection" was not put on the list?
So natural selection is not part of evolution, let alone not being fundamental to evolution.
Got it. Nothing to see here. Do you have some reason for posting that?

[Glenn]

On Saturday, September 24, 2022 at 12:30:20 PM UTC-7, Ron O wrote:

> On 9/24/2022 12:36 PM, Glenn wrote:
> > "5 Processes That Make Evolution RANDOM"
> >
> > https://medium.com/countdown-education/5-processes-that-make-evolution-random-87cedc3c3866
> >
> > Take that, Darwinists!
> >
> This isn't news or much of anything that hasn't been understood for most
> of the last century. Do you have some reason for posting it?
>

Did jillery have some reason for posting this six years ago, and what was that reason?

"BZZT! Darwinian evolution is not random. Write it backwards on your
forehead to remind you of it every morning. "

https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/emLLfp6WKPA/m/sd8KLMsDBwAJ

Could it be that "evolution" is whatever an evolutionist decides to define, for whatever reason on any occasion?

[RonO]

On 9/24/2022 2:58 PM, Glenn wrote:
> On Saturday, September 24, 2022 at 12:30:20 PM UTC-7, Ron O wrote:
>> On 9/24/2022 12:36 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>> "5 Processes That Make Evolution RANDOM"
>>>
>>> https://medium.com/countdown-education/5-processes-that-make-evolution-random-87cedc3c3866
>>>
>>> Take that, Darwinists!
>>>
>> This isn't news or much of anything that hasn't been understood for most
>> of the last century. Do you have some reason for posting it?
>
> To hear you say "nothing to see here, move along" once more.

What about this has not been known for over half a century? It is just
a known part of evolutionary biology.

What did you put it up for? Can you tell the truth about anything?

>>
>> Natural selection isn't on the list because it is a nonrandom process in
>> terms of genetic variation that improves fitness in a particular
>> environment is selected for.
>>
>
> How come you speak for the reason why "natural selection" was not put on the list?
> So natural selection is not part of evolution, let alone not being fundamental to evolution.
> Got it. Nothing to see here. Do you have some reason for posting that?
>

Because the list was for random aspects of biological evolution (Did you
read your own reference?), and Natural selection is a nonrandom factor,
and so would not be expected to be on the list that you put up.

Why did you put up the list?

Ron Okimoto

[RonO]

Electroshock therapy likely isn't enough for you, so you can take your
finger out of the socket. The list was for random factors of biological
evolution. Natural selection wasn't on the list because it isn't random
in the sense that they are talking about for the factors on the list.
What don't you get?

Ron Okimoto

[Glenn]

Fine with me, as long as you are clear about "a change of allele frequencies over time" being a fundamentally random process. Thanks for clearing the air, Ron.

[RonO]

Glenn, you still don't know what the list was about. Those are only the
random factors of biological evolution. They are the random factors
involved in allele frequency change over time in any population. There
are also nonrandom factors like natural selection and canalization. You
should know these things by now. How long have you been posting to TO?

The list is of the factors that cause the allele frequency changes of
mostly neutral mutations. Neutral mutations are not selected for or
against, so they drift in the population. Even if there is negative or
positive selection alleles can be fixed in a population due to these
factors, usually for very small populations. The larger the population
the more difficult it would be to fix a deleterious allele by these
random effects.

Deleterious alleles are unlikely to be fixed in a large population due
to selection against them. The favorable alleles are the ones that get
selected for, counter to these random effects. Natural selection is the
nonrandom factor in allele frequency change over time.

The list is simply an incomplete list of factors affecting allele
frequency changes in a population. It only lists the random factors.

Ron Okimoto

[Glenn]

On Saturday, September 24, 2022 at 7:55:21 PM UTC-7, Ron O wrote:
> On 9/24/2022 8:53 PM, Glenn wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 24, 2022 at 3:25:20 PM UTC-7, Ron O wrote:
> >> On 9/24/2022 3:07 PM, Glenn wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, September 24, 2022 at 12:30:20 PM UTC-7, Ron O wrote:
> >>>> On 9/24/2022 12:36 PM, Glenn wrote:
> >>>>> "5 Processes That Make Evolution RANDOM"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://medium.com/countdown-education/5-processes-that-make-evolution-random-87cedc3c3866
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Take that, Darwinists!
> >>>>>
> >>>> This isn't news or much of anything that hasn't been understood for most
> >>>> of the last century. Do you have some reason for posting it?
> >>>>
> >>> Did jillery have some reason for posting this six years ago, and what was that reason?
> >>>
> >>> "BZZT! Darwinian evolution is not random. Write it backwards on your
> >>> forehead to remind you of it every morning. "
> >>>
> >>> https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/emLLfp6WKPA/m/sd8KLMsDBwAJ
> >>>
> >>> Could it be that "evolution" is whatever an evolutionist decides to define, for whatever reason on any occasion?
> >>>
> >> Electroshock therapy likely isn't enough for you, so you can take your
> >> finger out of the socket. The list was for random factors of biological
> >> evolution. Natural selection wasn't on the list because it isn't random
> >> in the sense that they are talking about for the factors on the list.
> >> What don't you get?
> >>
> > Fine with me, as long as you are clear about "a change of allele frequencies over time" being a fundamentally random process. Thanks for clearing the air, Ron.
> >

You seem to be avoiding this. Why? You claimed at first that evolution being random has been "understood" for a century.

> Glenn, you still don't know what the list was about.

Actually, to the extent of what actually existed, I do: "5 Processes That Make Evolution RANDOM".

>Those are only the
> random factors of biological evolution. They are the random factors
> involved in allele frequency change over time in any population. There
> are also nonrandom factors like natural selection and canalization. You
> should know these things by now. How long have you been posting to TO?
>
> The list is of the factors that cause the allele frequency changes of
> mostly neutral mutations. Neutral mutations are not selected for or
> against, so they drift in the population. Even if there is negative or
> positive selection alleles can be fixed in a population due to these
> factors, usually for very small populations. The larger the population
> the more difficult it would be to fix a deleterious allele by these
> random effects.
>
> Deleterious alleles are unlikely to be fixed in a large population due
> to selection against them. The favorable alleles are the ones that get
> selected for, counter to these random effects. Natural selection is the
> nonrandom factor in allele frequency change over time.
>
> The list is simply an incomplete list of factors affecting allele
> frequency changes in a population. It only lists the random factors.
>

You're babbling.

[jillery]

On Sat, 24 Sep 2022 13:07:17 -0700 (PDT), Glenn <GlennS...@msn.com>
wrote:

>On Saturday, September 24, 2022 at 12:30:20 PM UTC-7, Ron O wrote:
>> On 9/24/2022 12:36 PM, Glenn wrote:
>> > "5 Processes That Make Evolution RANDOM"
>> >
>> > https://medium.com/countdown-education/5-processes-that-make-evolution-random-87cedc3c3866
>> >
>> > Take that, Darwinists!

Any process which involves energy conversion necessarily incorporates
random elements, from engines to evolution to life itself. That fact
doesn't make those processes random.

>> This isn't news or much of anything that hasn't been understood for most
>> of the last century. Do you have some reason for posting it?
>>
>Did jillery have some reason for posting this six years ago, and what was that reason?
>
>"BZZT! Darwinian evolution is not random. Write it backwards on your
>forehead to remind you of it every morning. "
>
>https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/emLLfp6WKPA/m/sd8KLMsDBwAJ

Since you asked, because jillery saw no reason to post that obvious
truth more recently. You provided one just now. You're welcome.

>Could it be that "evolution" is whatever an evolutionist decides to define, for whatever reason on any occasion?

Could it be that you have no idea what you're talking about and are
proud of it?


--
You're entitled to your own opinions.
You're not entitled to your own facts.

[Glenn]

Yes. As a scientist, I must concede that, I must volunteer that.

[jillery]

On Sat, 24 Sep 2022 21:38:31 -0700 (PDT), Glenn <GlennS...@msn.com>

My question is based on your question which is based on a mindlessly
literal interpretation of a clickbait title to a generic blog post.
There's a difference.

[Glenn]

I agree. My question is not based on that single blog post at all. And you didn't fail to notice you didn't answer the question you posed to me.

I was hoping others would stray into the thread, like John. He'd make the three of you complete. But I might not have time to play tomorrow, so I'll let you waddle around in this blog post below. Try to watch your brain argue with itself and see if you have any idea what you're talking about and are proud of it in the end.

"evolution is fundamentally a random process"

"Evolution is more than just a change in the frequency of alleles in a population [What Is Evolution?]. It's also the history of life on Earth from the earliest beginnings almost four billion years ago to the present day. When I say that evolution is by accident I'm referring as much to this historical event as to short-term changes within a population."

https://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2019/08/evolution-by-accident.html

[RonO]

On 9/24/2022 11:05 PM, Glenn wrote:
> On Saturday, September 24, 2022 at 7:55:21 PM UTC-7, Ron O wrote:
>> On 9/24/2022 8:53 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>> On Saturday, September 24, 2022 at 3:25:20 PM UTC-7, Ron O wrote:
>>>> On 9/24/2022 3:07 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, September 24, 2022 at 12:30:20 PM UTC-7, Ron O wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/24/2022 12:36 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>> "5 Processes That Make Evolution RANDOM"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://medium.com/countdown-education/5-processes-that-make-evolution-random-87cedc3c3866
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Take that, Darwinists!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> This isn't news or much of anything that hasn't been understood for most
>>>>>> of the last century. Do you have some reason for posting it?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Did jillery have some reason for posting this six years ago, and what was that reason?
>>>>>
>>>>> "BZZT! Darwinian evolution is not random. Write it backwards on your
>>>>> forehead to remind you of it every morning. "
>>>>>
>>>>> https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/emLLfp6WKPA/m/sd8KLMsDBwAJ
>>>>>
>>>>> Could it be that "evolution" is whatever an evolutionist decides to define, for whatever reason on any occasion?
>>>>>
>>>> Electroshock therapy likely isn't enough for you, so you can take your
>>>> finger out of the socket. The list was for random factors of biological
>>>> evolution. Natural selection wasn't on the list because it isn't random
>>>> in the sense that they are talking about for the factors on the list.
>>>> What don't you get?
>>>>
>>> Fine with me, as long as you are clear about "a change of allele frequencies over time" being a fundamentally random process. Thanks for clearing the air, Ron.
>>>
>
> You seem to be avoiding this. Why? You claimed at first that evolution being random has been "understood" for a century.

No, I didn't ignore it I addressed it. The list was only about the
random factors and did not include the non random factors, so there was
no agreement that change in allele frequency is a fundamentally random
process. What do you not get about the nonrandom factors that influence
change in allele frequency over time? What does it matter? There are
evolutionary biologists that claim that genetic drift is more important
to the evolution of life on earth than natural selection, but so what?
Evolution is just what it is, and results in what it has resulted in.

Can you state what you are trying to argue about this point? Are you
trying to deny that the random processes that generate the genetic
variation in a population are not acted on and influenced by natural
selection? This list leaves out the nonrandom factors, so it likely
isn't supporting what you want it to support.

You could demonstrate that, but stating what you want to claim.

>
>> Glenn, you still don't know what the list was about.
>
>
> Actually, to the extent of what actually existed, I do: "5 Processes That Make Evolution RANDOM".

It is a list of the random factors influencing allele frequency change
over time. It does not include the nonrandom factors. What does that
tell you about your conclusions from such a list?

>
>> Those are only the
>> random factors of biological evolution. They are the random factors
>> involved in allele frequency change over time in any population. There
>> are also nonrandom factors like natural selection and canalization. You
>> should know these things by now. How long have you been posting to TO?
>>
>> The list is of the factors that cause the allele frequency changes of
>> mostly neutral mutations. Neutral mutations are not selected for or
>> against, so they drift in the population. Even if there is negative or
>> positive selection alleles can be fixed in a population due to these
>> factors, usually for very small populations. The larger the population
>> the more difficult it would be to fix a deleterious allele by these
>> random effects.
>>
>> Deleterious alleles are unlikely to be fixed in a large population due
>> to selection against them. The favorable alleles are the ones that get
>> selected for, counter to these random effects. Natural selection is the
>> nonrandom factor in allele frequency change over time.
>>
>> The list is simply an incomplete list of factors affecting allele
>> frequency changes in a population. It only lists the random factors.
>>
> You're babbling.
>

You don't seem to know what you want to claim. Can you state what you
want to use this list for? Just state it clearly enough so that you
understand what you are claiming. Can you make that claim when you know
that the list doesn't include the nonrandom factors?

Ron Okimoto

[John Bode]

Congratulations on *finally* figuring it out.

[Glenn]

You assume I have come to believe "it", ie "figuring it out". Congratulations.

You may consider that you have somehow missed out on the news that Darwinists do not believe evolution is random.

[jillery]

On Sat, 1 Oct 2022 09:55:44 -0700 (PDT), Glenn <GlennS...@msn.com>
wrote:

What percentage of a process do you allow to be random before you
decide it's non-random?

[Bill]

jillery wrote:

> On Sat, 1 Oct 2022 09:55:44 -0700 (PDT), Glenn <GlennS...@msn.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On Friday, September 30, 2022 at 11:15:26 AM UTC-7, John Bode wrote:
>>> On 9/24/22 12:36 PM, Glenn wrote:
>>> > "5 Processes That Make Evolution RANDOM"
>>> >
>>> > https://medium.com/countdown-education/5-processes-that-make-evolution-random-87cedc3c3866
>>> >
>>> > Take that, Darwinists!
>>> >
>>> Congratulations on *finally* figuring it out.
>>
>>You assume I have come to believe "it", ie "figuring it out".
>>Congratulations.
>>
>>You may consider that you have somehow missed out on the news that
>>Darwinists do not believe evolution is random.
>
>
> What percentage of a process do you allow to be random before you
> decide it's non-random?
>

Random is another way of saying, "too difficult to figure out.". If there is
so much stuff surrounding some question, we can just insert "random" and
claim to have contributed something useful.

Bill

[Bob Casanova]

On Sun, 02 Oct 2022 10:54:25 -0500, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by Bill <fre...@gmail.com>:

<snip>

>
>Random is another way of saying, "too difficult to figure out.".
>

Nope; sorry. It has a specific meaning in math (GIYF), which
is essentially what this is about.
>
--

Bob C.

"The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries, is not
'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"

- Isaac Asimov

[jillery]

"Random" has multiple meanings. In this context, it means the
outcomes of the processes which the cited article identifies aren't
dependent on the the environment.