AiG: Dragons, Insects, and Zip lines

[Mark Buchanan]

One of the more unusual arguments AiG uses for the co-existence of
dinosaurs and humans is dragon folklore - dragons could be related to
dinosaurs you know:). As part of their newest summer enticements to keep
the crowds coming in, dragons will be used:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2013/05/15/dragon-invasion-coming-creation-museum

From the article: 'Not only will the signage summarize some of the
fascinating dragon legends from around the world that AiG�s research
staff spent months of intense study, but the signs will also suggest a
connection to dinosaurs. As visitors enter the portico, they will see a
sign that states, �Were dinosaurs dragons?�'

The massive marketing push will also include an insect exhibit and some
zip lines. The insect exhibit might actually be worth something if they
do it well but the zip lines should bring in the greatest amount of
creationist dollars this year.

Mark

[Paul J Gans]

Mark Buchanan <marklynn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>One of the more unusual arguments AiG uses for the co-existence of
>dinosaurs and humans is dragon folklore - dragons could be related to
>dinosaurs you know:). As part of their newest summer enticements to keep
>the crowds coming in, dragons will be used:

>http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2013/05/15/dragon-invasion-coming-creation-museum

> From the article: 'Not only will the signage summarize some of the

>fascinating dragon legends from around the world that AiG?s research

>staff spent months of intense study, but the signs will also suggest a
>connection to dinosaurs. As visitors enter the portico, they will see a

>sign that states, ?Were dinosaurs dragons??'

>The massive marketing push will also include an insect exhibit and some
>zip lines. The insect exhibit might actually be worth something if they
>do it well but the zip lines should bring in the greatest amount of
>creationist dollars this year.

I don't know about the entire world, but in much of Europe
and the surrounding areas in times prior to 1000 AD, dragons
seem to have been snakes. Snakes with rudimentary wings, to
be true, but nothing like a dino body plan. This can be seen
in later medieval art.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

[Friar Broccoli]

On Wed, 15 May 2013 22:52:04 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com>
wrote:

It ALL fits! The "snake" in the garden of Eden was an *evil*
dragon/dinosaur/pterosaur whose appendages (and vocal cords) were
removed for his evil deed.

--
Friar Broccoli (Robert Keith Elias), Quebec Canada
I consider ALL arguments in support of my views

[Kalkidas]

On Wed, 15 May 2013 17:10:15 -0400, Mark Buchanan
<marklynn...@gmail.com> wrote:

>One of the more unusual arguments AiG uses for the co-existence of
>dinosaurs and humans is dragon folklore - dragons could be related to
>dinosaurs you know:). As part of their newest summer enticements to keep
>the crowds coming in, dragons will be used:
>
>http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2013/05/15/dragon-invasion-coming-creation-museum
>
> From the article: 'Not only will the signage summarize some of the

>fascinating dragon legends from around the world that AiG�s research

>staff spent months of intense study, but the signs will also suggest a
>connection to dinosaurs. As visitors enter the portico, they will see a

>sign that states, �Were dinosaurs dragons?�'

>
>The massive marketing push will also include an insect exhibit and some
>zip lines. The insect exhibit might actually be worth something if they
>do it well but the zip lines should bring in the greatest amount of
>creationist dollars this year.
>

Anyone who has seen "Reign Of Fire" knows that dragons destroyed the
dinosaurs.

[Paul J Gans]

Now why didn't I think of that.

But I'll leave it to Wilkings to offer the appropriate
biological explanation of why dragons seem always to be
attracted to chaste young women?

Or is the answer in Freud?

[Mark Isaak]

Chinese dragons were, in a sense, modeled on dinosaurs. Fossil bones
were considered dragon bones. Even then, Chinese dragons tended to be
more snake-like than anything else, although they could look like
anything they wanted to look like. Sometimes people were disguised dragons.

Some Native Americans had myths about the monsters whose fossil bones
showed up, too, but they were water monsters. Probably the closest
thing they had to dragons were the Thunderbirds, which are explicitly
birds. They have their share of giant snakes, too.

Hawaii is the only place I know of whose dragons are at all quadruped
dinosaur-like, probably because there are no snakes in Hawaii.

--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) curioustaxonomy (dot) net
"It is certain, from experience, that the smallest grain of natural
honesty and benevolence has more effect on men's conduct, than the most
pompous views suggested by theological theories and systems." - D. Hume

[John S. Wilkins]

Sometime a wurm is just a wurm.
--
John S. Wilkins, Associate, Philosophy, University of Sydney
http://evolvingthoughts.net
But al be that he was a philosophre,
Yet hadde he but litel gold in cofre

[John S. Wilkins]

So the bolide was a crashing spacecraft?

[A. Carlson]

On Wed, 15 May 2013 17:10:15 -0400, Mark Buchanan
<marklynn...@gmail.com> wrote:

>One of the more unusual arguments AiG uses for the co-existence of
>dinosaurs and humans is dragon folklore - dragons could be related to
>dinosaurs you know:). As part of their newest summer enticements to keep
>the crowds coming in, dragons will be used:
>
>http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2013/05/15/dragon-invasion-coming-creation-museum
>
> From the article: 'Not only will the signage summarize some of the

>fascinating dragon legends from around the world that AiG�s research

>staff spent months of intense study, but the signs will also suggest a
>connection to dinosaurs. As visitors enter the portico, they will see a

>sign that states, �Were dinosaurs dragons?�'

>
>The massive marketing push will also include an insect exhibit and some
>zip lines. The insect exhibit might actually be worth something if they
>do it well but the zip lines should bring in the greatest amount of
>creationist dollars this year.
>
>Mark

Why should anyone assume that ancient cultures never came across
dinosaur bones?

In addition to fossils being discovered after being exposed by the
elements it is probably more common for major construction projects to
unearth them as well. Ancient Greeks, Romans, and Chinese were
certainly known to have undertaken the types of projects that were
likely to have, upon occasion, unearth such finds.

It is hardly a stretch to assume that the concept of dragons may have
come from early fossil finds. It has even been suggested that other
mythical beasts such as cyclops, griffins, and giants also stem from
such finds.

Creationists are notorious for selective rationalization. The bible
not only mentions a behemoth (Job 40:15) but also giants (Genesis
6:4; Numbers 13:33), unicorns (Isaiah 34:7), and satyrs (Isaiah 13:21,
34:14).

It is debatable what creatures were actually being talked about at
least where unicorns and satyrs were concerned. Giants and behemoth,
however, came with descriptions that don't match up well at least with
any creatures widely accepted as existing within the last several
thousand years.

I'll believe that Creationists are at least sincere in their beliefs
and not just shameless opportunists when they give equal emphasis to
the concept of giants in their Creationist museum displays. This
isn't likely to happen because I think they know that that is a bridge
too far for too many people.

[Ron O]

On May 15, 5:52�pm, Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:

> Mark Buchanan <marklynn.bucha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >One of the more unusual arguments AiG uses for the co-existence of
> >dinosaurs and humans is dragon folklore - dragons could be related to
> >dinosaurs you know:). As part of their newest summer enticements to keep
> >the crowds coming in, dragons will be used:

> >http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2013/05/15/dragon-invasion-c...

> > From the article: 'Not only will the signage summarize some of the
> >fascinating dragon legends from around the world that AiG?s research
> >staff spent months of intense study, but the signs will also suggest a
> >connection to dinosaurs. As visitors enter the portico, they will see a
> >sign that states, ?Were dinosaurs dragons??'
> >The massive marketing push will also include an insect exhibit and some
> >zip lines. The insect exhibit might actually be worth something if they
> >do it well but the zip lines should bring in the greatest amount of
> >creationist dollars this year.
>
> I don't know about the entire world, but in much of Europe
> and the surrounding areas in times prior to 1000 AD, dragons
> seem to have been snakes. �Snakes with rudimentary wings, to
> be true, but nothing like a dino body plan. �This can be seen
> in later medieval art.
>
> --
> � �--- Paul J. Gans

Remember that God took away the snake's legs for leading Eve astray.

Ron Okimoto

[J. J. Lodder]

A. Carlson <amc...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 15 May 2013 17:10:15 -0400, Mark Buchanan
> <marklynn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >One of the more unusual arguments AiG uses for the co-existence of
> >dinosaurs and humans is dragon folklore - dragons could be related to
> >dinosaurs you know:). As part of their newest summer enticements to keep
> >the crowds coming in, dragons will be used:
> >
> >http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2013/05/15/dragon-invasion-coming-cr
eation-museum
> >
> > From the article: 'Not only will the signage summarize some of the
> >fascinating dragon legends from around the world that AiG's research
> >staff spent months of intense study, but the signs will also suggest a
> >connection to dinosaurs. As visitors enter the portico, they will see a
> >sign that states, "Were dinosaurs dragons?'
> >
> >The massive marketing push will also include an insect exhibit and some
> >zip lines. The insect exhibit might actually be worth something if they
> >do it well but the zip lines should bring in the greatest amount of
> >creationist dollars this year.
> >
> >Mark
>
> Why should anyone assume that ancient cultures never came across
> dinosaur bones?

Even so, they cannot have had any clear idea of what a dino looked like.

> In addition to fossils being discovered after being exposed by the
> elements it is probably more common for major construction projects to
> unearth them as well. Ancient Greeks, Romans, and Chinese were
> certainly known to have undertaken the types of projects that were
> likely to have, upon occasion, unearth such finds.
>
> It is hardly a stretch to assume that the concept of dragons may have
> come from early fossil finds. It has even been suggested that other
> mythical beasts such as cyclops, griffins, and giants also stem from
> such finds.

In particular, the cyclops may have been based on elephant skuls,
with the nose hole mistaken for the eye socket,

Jan

[Burkhard]

On 16 May, 06:19, "A. Carlson" <amca...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 15 May 2013 17:10:15 -0400, Mark Buchanan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <marklynn.bucha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >One of the more unusual arguments AiG uses for the co-existence of
> >dinosaurs and humans is dragon folklore - dragons could be related to
> >dinosaurs you know:). As part of their newest summer enticements to keep
> >the crowds coming in, dragons will be used:
>

> >http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2013/05/15/dragon-invasion-c...

>
> > From the article: 'Not only will the signage summarize some of the

> >fascinating dragon legends from around the world that AiG�s research

> >staff spent months of intense study, but the signs will also suggest a
> >connection to dinosaurs. As visitors enter the portico, they will see a

> >sign that states, �Were dinosaurs dragons?�'

>
> >The massive marketing push will also include an insect exhibit and some
> >zip lines. The insect exhibit might actually be worth something if they
> >do it well but the zip lines should bring in the greatest amount of
> >creationist dollars this year.
>
> >Mark
>
> Why should anyone assume that ancient cultures never came across
> dinosaur bones?
>
> In addition to fossils being discovered after being exposed by the
> elements it is probably more common for major construction projects to

> unearth them as well. �Ancient Greeks, Romans, and Chinese were

> certainly known to have undertaken the types of projects that were
> likely to have, upon occasion, unearth such finds.
>

> It is hardly a stretch to �assume that the concept of dragons may have
> come from early fossil finds. �It has even been suggested that other

> mythical beasts such as cyclops, griffins, and giants also stem from
> such finds.
>

> Creationists are notorious for selective rationalization. �The bible
> not only mentions a behemoth (Job 40:15) �but also giants (Genesis

> 6:4; Numbers 13:33), unicorns (Isaiah 34:7), and satyrs (Isaiah 13:21,
> 34:14).
>
> It is debatable what creatures were actually being talked about at

> least where unicorns and satyrs were concerned. �Giants and behemoth,

> however, came with descriptions that don't match up well at least with
> any creatures widely accepted as existing within the last several
> thousand years.
>

> I'll believe that Creationists are at least �sincere in their beliefs

> and not just shameless opportunists when they give equal emphasis to

> the concept of giants in their Creationist museum displays. �This

> isn't likely to happen because I think they know that that is a bridge
> too far for too many people.

Hah, bridges, got ya! if there were no giants, what build giant's
causeway, mhh? mhh?

[Robert Carnegie]

On Thursday, 16 May 2013 11:43:05 UTC+1, Burkhard wrote:
> Hah, bridges, got ya! if there were no giants, what build giant's
> causeway, mhh? mhh?

Is the creationist theory that it was built by giants?

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant's_Causeway> refers to YEC content
at the visitor centre, presumably disagreeing that "Some 50 to 60 million
years ago, during the Paleogene period, Antrim was subject to intense
volcanic activity, when highly fluid molten basalt intruded through
chalk beds to form an extensive lava plateau", but it isn't stated
there what YECs /do/ believe, except, presumably not that.
Maybe Noah's flood, huh?

[Robert Carnegie]

On Thursday, 16 May 2013 04:58:22 UTC+1, Mark Isaak wrote:
> Chinese dragons were, in a sense, modeled on dinosaurs. Fossil bones
> were considered dragon bones. Even then, Chinese dragons tended to be
> more snake-like than anything else, although they could look like
> anything they wanted to look like. Sometimes people were disguised
> dragons.

Anyway, can I propose that a myth of e.g. giant crabs with human ears
doesn't require any physical evidence that can be interpreted as
representing giant crabs with human ears. You can just make it up.
Giant people are just people but bigger, whether or not they are real
people with a problem with a gland (pituitary? cancer?) If they
didn't exist, we could still imagine giants. Even if all real people
were /exactly/ the same size as one another.

Granted, if there /is/ physical evidence, the wise old sage who says
"I don't know what /that/ is" suffers a loss of reputation, particularly
if he is supposed to be getting this information from an all-knowing god.
So, make something up /about/ the fossils.

[Burkhard]

On 16 May, 14:05, Robert Carnegie <rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, 16 May 2013 11:43:05 UTC+1, Burkhard �wrote:
> > Hah, bridges, got ya! if there were no giants, what build giant's
> > causeway, mhh? mhh?
>
> Is the creationist theory that it was built by giants?

Don't know about creationists, but it was manifestly build by Fionn
mac Cumhaill, son of Cumhall (and leader of the Fianna) and Muirne,
daughter of the druid Tadg mac Nuadat from the hills of Almu in
County Kildare.
It stands to reason that it, just like the Isle of Man and Lough Neagh
were formed during his epic battle withthe Scottish giant Benandonner,
The Red Man, whom he had challenged to cross the causeway and fight
him.
(OK, fir enough, when Finn had seen that Benandonner was much, much
bigger than he had imagined, he skidaddled back hometo his wife and
told her tha tpicking a fight might have been a varrry bad idea after
all)

His wife Oonagh had to get him out of that pickle, so when
Benandonner arrived at her home, she hid Finn under a blanket, and the
plyed Benandonner with mead and mighty tales of her husband's power. ,
She showed him where the gardens were scattered about with giant
boulders and said:
�Finn and his friends play catch with these rocks. Finn practises by
throwing one over the Fort, then running round to catch it before it
falls.�

Benandonner had a go himself, but they were so heavy he could only
just lift it above his head before dropping it, injuring his neck. On
this he wisely thanked Oonagh for her hospitality and said he would
wait no longer, but return to Scotland before the tide came in.

Finn, now confident of victory, chased Benandonner out of Ireland.
During the chase, he scooped a huge clod of earth out of the ground
to fling at his enemy. The hole filled up with water and became the
biggest Lough in Ireland � Lough Neagh! The clod he flung missed its
target and landed in the middle of the Irish Sea to becoem the Isle
of Man.

And both giants tore up the Giant�s Causeway, just leaving the ragged
ends at the two shores!

so it is written and told for generations, so it surely is true.

[Mark Isaak]

On 5/15/13 10:19 PM, A. Carlson wrote:
> On Wed, 15 May 2013 17:10:15 -0400, Mark Buchanan
> <marklynn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> One of the more unusual arguments AiG uses for the co-existence of
>> dinosaurs and humans is dragon folklore - dragons could be related to
>> dinosaurs you know:). As part of their newest summer enticements to keep
>> the crowds coming in, dragons will be used:
>>
>> http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2013/05/15/dragon-invasion-coming-creation-museum
>>
>> From the article: 'Not only will the signage summarize some of the

>> fascinating dragon legends from around the world that AiG�s research

>> staff spent months of intense study, but the signs will also suggest a
>> connection to dinosaurs. As visitors enter the portico, they will see a

>> sign that states, �Were dinosaurs dragons?�'

>>
>> The massive marketing push will also include an insect exhibit and some
>> zip lines. The insect exhibit might actually be worth something if they
>> do it well but the zip lines should bring in the greatest amount of
>> creationist dollars this year.
>>
>> Mark
>
> Why should anyone assume that ancient cultures never came across
> dinosaur bones?
>
> In addition to fossils being discovered after being exposed by the
> elements it is probably more common for major construction projects to
> unearth them as well. Ancient Greeks, Romans, and Chinese were
> certainly known to have undertaken the types of projects that were
> likely to have, upon occasion, unearth such finds.
>
> It is hardly a stretch to assume that the concept of dragons may have
> come from early fossil finds. It has even been suggested that other
> mythical beasts such as cyclops, griffins, and giants also stem from
> such finds.

Ancient Greeks, Romans, and Chinese were certainly known to have

unearthed such finds. See Adrien Mayor's _The First Fossil Hunters_.
The cyclops were likely inspired, as J.J. Lodder said, by elephant
skulls, but griffins very likely came from fossils of a ceratopsan dinosaur.

[Mark Isaak]

On 5/15/13 10:19 PM, A. Carlson wrote:

> On Wed, 15 May 2013 17:10:15 -0400, Mark Buchanan
> <marklynn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> One of the more unusual arguments AiG uses for the co-existence of
>> dinosaurs and humans is dragon folklore - dragons could be related to
>> dinosaurs you know:). As part of their newest summer enticements to keep
>> the crowds coming in, dragons will be used:
>>
>> http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2013/05/15/dragon-invasion-coming-creation-museum
>>
>> From the article: 'Not only will the signage summarize some of the

>> fascinating dragon legends from around the world that AiG�s research

>> staff spent months of intense study, but the signs will also suggest a
>> connection to dinosaurs. As visitors enter the portico, they will see a

>> sign that states, �Were dinosaurs dragons?�'

>>
>> The massive marketing push will also include an insect exhibit and some
>> zip lines. The insect exhibit might actually be worth something if they
>> do it well but the zip lines should bring in the greatest amount of
>> creationist dollars this year.
>>
>> Mark
>
> Why should anyone assume that ancient cultures never came across
> dinosaur bones?
>
> In addition to fossils being discovered after being exposed by the
> elements it is probably more common for major construction projects to
> unearth them as well. Ancient Greeks, Romans, and Chinese were
> certainly known to have undertaken the types of projects that were
> likely to have, upon occasion, unearth such finds.
>
> It is hardly a stretch to assume that the concept of dragons may have
> come from early fossil finds. It has even been suggested that other
> mythical beasts such as cyclops, griffins, and giants also stem from
> such finds.

Ancient Greeks, Romans, and Chinese were certainly known to have

unearthed such finds. See Adrien Mayor's _The First Fossil Hunters_.
The cyclops were likely inspired, as J.J. Lodder said, by elephant
skulls, but griffins very likely came from fossils of a ceratopsan

dinosaur. Large limb bones from dinosaurs also inspired at least some
of the stories of giant humans.

[Harry K]

On May 16, 3:43�am, Burkhard <b.scha...@ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> On 16 May, 06:19, "A. Carlson" <amca...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 15 May 2013 17:10:15 -0400, Mark Buchanan
>
> > <marklynn.bucha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >One of the more unusual arguments AiG uses for the co-existence of
> > >dinosaurs and humans is dragon folklore - dragons could be related to
> > >dinosaurs you know:). As part of their newest summer enticements to keep
> > >the crowds coming in, dragons will be used:
>
> > >http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2013/05/15/dragon-invasion-c...
>
> > > From the article: 'Not only will the signage summarize some of the

> > >fascinating dragon legends from around the world that AiG s research

> > >staff spent months of intense study, but the signs will also suggest a
> > >connection to dinosaurs. As visitors enter the portico, they will see a

> > >sign that states, Were dinosaurs dragons? '

>
> > >The massive marketing push will also include an insect exhibit and some
> > >zip lines. The insect exhibit might actually be worth something if they
> > >do it well but the zip lines should bring in the greatest amount of
> > >creationist dollars this year.
>
> > >Mark
>
> > Why should anyone assume that ancient cultures never came across
> > dinosaur bones?
>
> > In addition to fossils being discovered after being exposed by the
> > elements it is probably more common for major construction projects to

> > unearth them as well. Ancient Greeks, Romans, and Chinese were

> > certainly known to have undertaken the types of projects that were
> > likely to have, upon occasion, unearth such finds.
>

> > It is hardly a stretch to assume that the concept of dragons may have
> > come from early fossil finds. It has even been suggested that other

> > mythical beasts such as cyclops, griffins, and giants also stem from
> > such finds.
>

> > Creationists are notorious for selective rationalization. The bible
> > not only mentions a behemoth (Job 40:15) but also giants (Genesis

> > 6:4; Numbers 13:33), unicorns (Isaiah 34:7), and satyrs (Isaiah 13:21,
> > 34:14).
>
> > It is debatable what creatures were actually being talked about at

> > least where unicorns and satyrs were concerned. Giants and behemoth,

> > however, came with descriptions that don't match up well at least with
> > any creatures widely accepted as existing within the last several
> > thousand years.
>

> > I'll believe that Creationists are at least sincere in their beliefs

> > and not just shameless opportunists when they give equal emphasis to

> > the concept of giants in their Creationist museum displays. This

> > isn't likely to happen because I think they know that that is a bridge
> > too far for too many people.
>
> Hah, bridges, got ya! if there were no giants, what build giant's
> causeway, mhh? mhh?

No fair!! Since he "wasn't there" how would he know?

Harry K

[TimR]

On Thursday, May 16, 2013 1:19:40 AM UTC-4, A. Carlson wrote:
> It is debatable what creatures were actually being talked about at
>
> least where unicorns and satyrs were concerned. Giants and behemoth,
>
> however, came with descriptions that don't match up well at least with
>
> any creatures widely accepted as existing within the last several
>
> thousand years.

I dunno, behemoth sounds like hippotamus to me from the description, especially the way the tail spins. (is the purpose of that to disperse waste? I was in a zoo once when the hippo did exactly that, showering the less alert in the crowd) Leviathan seems to match crocodile.

[Paul J Gans]

Thanks. Interesting information.

[Paul J Gans]

So Freud is the right answer. I suppose that explains
the snake bit too.

[Paul J Gans]

Ron O <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

>On May 15, 5:52?pm, Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
>> Mark Buchanan <marklynn.bucha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >One of the more unusual arguments AiG uses for the co-existence of
>> >dinosaurs and humans is dragon folklore - dragons could be related to
>> >dinosaurs you know:). As part of their newest summer enticements to keep
>> >the crowds coming in, dragons will be used:
>> >http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2013/05/15/dragon-invasion-c...
>> > From the article: 'Not only will the signage summarize some of the
>> >fascinating dragon legends from around the world that AiG?s research
>> >staff spent months of intense study, but the signs will also suggest a
>> >connection to dinosaurs. As visitors enter the portico, they will see a
>> >sign that states, ?Were dinosaurs dragons??'
>> >The massive marketing push will also include an insect exhibit and some
>> >zip lines. The insect exhibit might actually be worth something if they
>> >do it well but the zip lines should bring in the greatest amount of
>> >creationist dollars this year.
>>
>> I don't know about the entire world, but in much of Europe
>> and the surrounding areas in times prior to 1000 AD, dragons

>> seem to have been snakes. ?Snakes with rudimentary wings, to
>> be true, but nothing like a dino body plan. ?This can be seen

>> in later medieval art.
>>
>> --

>> ? ?--- Paul J. Gans

>Remember that God took away the snake's legs for leading Eve astray.

It is all Freud, all the way down. Many have been misled by
a snake.

And the legs are, IIRC, still there in vestigial form if one
looks at the skeleton, or do I remember that incorrectly?

[Paul J Gans]

Burkhard <b.sc...@ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>On 16 May, 06:19, "A. Carlson" <amca...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 May 2013 17:10:15 -0400, Mark Buchanan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <marklynn.bucha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >One of the more unusual arguments AiG uses for the co-existence of
>> >dinosaurs and humans is dragon folklore - dragons could be related to
>> >dinosaurs you know:). As part of their newest summer enticements to keep
>> >the crowds coming in, dragons will be used:
>>
>> >http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2013/05/15/dragon-invasion-c...
>>
>> > From the article: 'Not only will the signage summarize some of the

>> >fascinating dragon legends from around the world that AiG?s research

>> >staff spent months of intense study, but the signs will also suggest a
>> >connection to dinosaurs. As visitors enter the portico, they will see a

>> >sign that states, ?Were dinosaurs dragons??'

>>
>> >The massive marketing push will also include an insect exhibit and some
>> >zip lines. The insect exhibit might actually be worth something if they
>> >do it well but the zip lines should bring in the greatest amount of
>> >creationist dollars this year.
>>
>> >Mark
>>
>> Why should anyone assume that ancient cultures never came across
>> dinosaur bones?
>>
>> In addition to fossils being discovered after being exposed by the
>> elements it is probably more common for major construction projects to

>> unearth them as well. ?Ancient Greeks, Romans, and Chinese were

>> certainly known to have undertaken the types of projects that were
>> likely to have, upon occasion, unearth such finds.
>>

>> It is hardly a stretch to ?assume that the concept of dragons may have
>> come from early fossil finds. ?It has even been suggested that other

>> mythical beasts such as cyclops, griffins, and giants also stem from
>> such finds.
>>

>> Creationists are notorious for selective rationalization. ?The bible
>> not only mentions a behemoth (Job 40:15) ?but also giants (Genesis

>> 6:4; Numbers 13:33), unicorns (Isaiah 34:7), and satyrs (Isaiah 13:21,
>> 34:14).
>>
>> It is debatable what creatures were actually being talked about at

>> least where unicorns and satyrs were concerned. ?Giants and behemoth,

>> however, came with descriptions that don't match up well at least with
>> any creatures widely accepted as existing within the last several
>> thousand years.
>>

>> I'll believe that Creationists are at least ?sincere in their beliefs

>> and not just shameless opportunists when they give equal emphasis to

>> the concept of giants in their Creationist museum displays. ?This

>> isn't likely to happen because I think they know that that is a bridge
>> too far for too many people.

>Hah, bridges, got ya! if there were no giants, what build giant's
>causeway, mhh? mhh?

Of course there were giants. Else who the heck were Gog
and Magog?

[Paul J Gans]

Burkhard <b.sc...@ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>On 16 May, 14:05, Robert Carnegie <rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote:

>> On Thursday, 16 May 2013 11:43:05 UTC+1, Burkhard ?wrote:
>> > Hah, bridges, got ya! if there were no giants, what build giant's
>> > causeway, mhh? mhh?
>>
>> Is the creationist theory that it was built by giants?

>Don't know about creationists, but it was manifestly build by Fionn
>mac Cumhaill, son of Cumhall (and leader of the Fianna) and Muirne,
>daughter of the druid Tadg mac Nuadat from the hills of Almu in
>County Kildare.
>It stands to reason that it, just like the Isle of Man and Lough Neagh
>were formed during his epic battle withthe Scottish giant Benandonner,
>The Red Man, whom he had challenged to cross the causeway and fight
>him.
>(OK, fir enough, when Finn had seen that Benandonner was much, much
>bigger than he had imagined, he skidaddled back hometo his wife and
>told her tha tpicking a fight might have been a varrry bad idea after
>all)

>His wife Oonagh had to get him out of that pickle, so when
>Benandonner arrived at her home, she hid Finn under a blanket, and the
>plyed Benandonner with mead and mighty tales of her husband's power. ,
>She showed him where the gardens were scattered about with giant
>boulders and said:

>?Finn and his friends play catch with these rocks. Finn practises by

>throwing one over the Fort, then running round to catch it before it

>falls.?

>Benandonner had a go himself, but they were so heavy he could only
>just lift it above his head before dropping it, injuring his neck. On
>this he wisely thanked Oonagh for her hospitality and said he would
>wait no longer, but return to Scotland before the tide came in.

>Finn, now confident of victory, chased Benandonner out of Ireland.
>During the chase, he scooped a huge clod of earth out of the ground
>to fling at his enemy. The hole filled up with water and became the

>biggest Lough in Ireland ? Lough Neagh! The clod he flung missed its

>target and landed in the middle of the Irish Sea to becoem the Isle
>of Man.

>And both giants tore up the Giant?s Causeway, just leaving the ragged

>ends at the two shores!

>so it is written and told for generations, so it surely is true.

If it is written, especially in a non-English language, it
is not only true, but a basis for serious worship.

Besides, I like the story. Much better than marching around
city walls blasting away off key on various horns until the
very earth shivers and the walls come tumbling down.

What skill is needed for that? All that is required is
a middle school band and a deaf leader to lead the march.

[jillery]

There is at least one species of snake living wild in Hawaii:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_Blind_Snake>

"Ramphotyphlops braminus is variously known as Brahminy blind snake
(or Brahminy blindsnake),[2] flowerpot snake, common blind snake,
island blind snake, and Hawaiian blind snake."

I have personally seen this animal in the wild in Hawaii. At first
glance, I thought it was just a dark worm, but on close inspection I
recognized its scales, and a threadlike tongue darting in and out.

[jillery]

Conan the Barbarian?

[chris thompson]

On May 16, 6:52�pm, Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:

There's no such thing as a vestigial structure- just ask Pagano.

And yes, they are there. If you look at a Boa, you don't even need the
skeleton- they are visible on the living critter.

Chris

[Ron O]

On May 16, 5:52�pm, Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:

I've seen the vistigial hind legs on a boa. All that is left are some
pointed nubs. There may be some hip bone left, but I wouldn't expect
more than the disarticulated fragments found in some whales.

Ron Okimoto

[J. J. Lodder]

Mark Isaak <eci...@curioustax.onomy.net> wrote:

> On 5/15/13 10:19 PM, A. Carlson wrote:
> > On Wed, 15 May 2013 17:10:15 -0400, Mark Buchanan
> > <marklynn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> One of the more unusual arguments AiG uses for the co-existence of
> >> dinosaurs and humans is dragon folklore - dragons could be related to
> >> dinosaurs you know:). As part of their newest summer enticements to keep
> >> the crowds coming in, dragons will be used:
> >>
> >> http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2013/05/15/dragon-invasion-coming-
creation-museum
> >>
> >> From the article: 'Not only will the signage summarize some of the

> >> fascinating dragon legends from around the world that AiG's research

> >> staff spent months of intense study, but the signs will also suggest a
> >> connection to dinosaurs. As visitors enter the portico, they will see a

> >> sign that states, "Were dinosaurs dragons?"'

> >>
> >> The massive marketing push will also include an insect exhibit and some
> >> zip lines. The insect exhibit might actually be worth something if they
> >> do it well but the zip lines should bring in the greatest amount of
> >> creationist dollars this year.
> >>
> >> Mark
> >
> > Why should anyone assume that ancient cultures never came across
> > dinosaur bones?
> >
> > In addition to fossils being discovered after being exposed by the
> > elements it is probably more common for major construction projects to
> > unearth them as well. Ancient Greeks, Romans, and Chinese were
> > certainly known to have undertaken the types of projects that were
> > likely to have, upon occasion, unearth such finds.
> >
> > It is hardly a stretch to assume that the concept of dragons may have
> > come from early fossil finds. It has even been suggested that other
> > mythical beasts such as cyclops, griffins, and giants also stem from
> > such finds.
>
> Ancient Greeks, Romans, and Chinese were certainly known to have
> unearthed such finds. See Adrien Mayor's _The First Fossil Hunters_.
> The cyclops were likely inspired, as J.J. Lodder said, by elephant
> skulls, but griffins very likely came from fossils of a ceratopsan
> dinosaur. Large limb bones from dinosaurs also inspired at least some
> of the stories of giant humans.

It really is a pity that those mini-elephants went extinct.
(or were driven extinct)
At less than one meter shoulder height in the wild
we could, on domestication, have had poodle-sized elephants by now.

No doubt far superior to those stupid canines,
for fetching the newspaper and things like that,

Jan

[Walter Bushell]

In article <kn3nuv$8ij$5...@reader1.panix.com>,

Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:

> It is all Freud, all the way down. Many have been misled by
> a snake.

Especially the one eyed trouser snake.

--
Gambling with Other People's Money is the meth of the fiscal industry.
me -- in the spirit of Karl and Groucho Marx

[Mark Isaak]

On 5/16/13 7:48 PM, jillery wrote:
> On Wed, 15 May 2013 20:58:22 -0700, Mark Isaak
> <eci...@curioustax.onomy.net> wrote:

> [...]

>>
>> Hawaii is the only place I know of whose dragons are at all quadruped
>> dinosaur-like, probably because there are no snakes in Hawaii.
>
> There is at least one species of snake living wild in Hawaii:
>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_Blind_Snake>
>
> "Ramphotyphlops braminus is variously known as Brahminy blind snake
> (or Brahminy blindsnake),[2] flowerpot snake, common blind snake,
> island blind snake, and Hawaiian blind snake."
>
> I have personally seen this animal in the wild in Hawaii. At first
> glance, I thought it was just a dark worm, but on close inspection I
> recognized its scales, and a threadlike tongue darting in and out.

Interesting. I wonder if it has been there long enough to be considered
"native."

[Paul J Gans]

Conan is a later manifestation. Gog and Magog go way back.

[jillery]

On Fri, 17 May 2013 17:53:13 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans

But as locations and/or eponymous groups.

[jillery]

On Fri, 17 May 2013 10:39:01 -0700, Mark Isaak

<eci...@curioustax.onomy.net> wrote:

>On 5/16/13 7:48 PM, jillery wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 May 2013 20:58:22 -0700, Mark Isaak
>> <eci...@curioustax.onomy.net> wrote:
>> [...]
>>>
>>> Hawaii is the only place I know of whose dragons are at all quadruped
>>> dinosaur-like, probably because there are no snakes in Hawaii.
>>
>> There is at least one species of snake living wild in Hawaii:
>>
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_Blind_Snake>
>>
>> "Ramphotyphlops braminus is variously known as Brahminy blind snake
>> (or Brahminy blindsnake),[2] flowerpot snake, common blind snake,
>> island blind snake, and Hawaiian blind snake."
>>
>> I have personally seen this animal in the wild in Hawaii. At first
>> glance, I thought it was just a dark worm, but on close inspection I
>> recognized its scales, and a threadlike tongue darting in and out.
>
>Interesting. I wonder if it has been there long enough to be considered
>"native."

They are as native as tree snakes on Guam, which is to say not at all.

[Paul J Gans]

We don't really know. What we have today are old stories
that have evolved over time.

[SkyEyes]

On May 17, 6:03�am, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <kn3nuv$8i...@reader1.panix.com>,

> �Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> > It is all Freud, all the way down. �Many have been misled by
> > a snake.
>
> Especially the one eyed trouser snake.

...otherwise known as a piss viper.

Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
skyeyes nine at cox dot net OR
skyeyes nine at yahoo dot com

[Paul J Gans]

SkyEyes <skye...@cox.net> wrote:

>On May 17, 6:03?am, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>> In article <kn3nuv$8i...@reader1.panix.com>,

>> ?Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>> > It is all Freud, all the way down. ?Many have been misled by

>> > a snake.
>>
>> Especially the one eyed trouser snake.

>...otherwise known as a piss viper.

Then there's the one that fans itself, known as
a vindshield viper.

[jillery]

On Fri, 17 May 2013 19:54:10 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans

Of course we don't really know. So you can't rule out Conan the
Barbarian.

[James Beck]

On Thu, 16 May 2013 22:45:46 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans

The Catholics all knew of the devil in Worms and given the greedy
local Diet, it's no surprise they went extinct.

[Paul J Gans]

He also exists as Cohen the Barbarian in Pratchett's sacred texts.

[Paul J Gans]

Hey, if folks were looking for me hungry like, I'd go extinct
too. I might pop back out of my borrow in another 5000 years,
or maybe not.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <kn5qq9$mvo$3...@reader1.panix.com>,

I'm more terrified of Conan the Banker.

[Burkhard]

On May 18, 11:58�pm, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <kn5qq9$mv...@reader1.panix.com>,

> �Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > >>Of course there were giants. �Else who the heck were Gog
> > >>and Magog?
>
> > >Conan the Barbarian?
>
> > Conan is a later manifestation. �Gog and Magog go way back.
>
> I'm more terrified of Conan the Banker.
>
> --

It's this guy who gives me the creeps.
http://imghumour.com/assets/Uploads/Conan-The-Librarian2.jpg

[Mark Buchanan]

The classic from Weird Al:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZHoHaAYHq8

[Paul J Gans]

Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <kn5qq9$mvo$3...@reader1.panix.com>,
> Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:

>> >>
>> >>Of course there were giants. Else who the heck were Gog
>> >>and Magog?
>>
>> >Conan the Barbarian?
>>
>> Conan is a later manifestation. Gog and Magog go way back.

>I'm more terrified of Conan the Banker.

Why? He already owns you, what you think is your property,
and your testicles.

Your role in life is to make executive bonuses larger. If
you do that consistently, you may be allowed to retire with
a miserable pittance.

[Mitchell Coffey]

On Thursday, May 16, 2013 1:10:57 AM UTC-4, John S. Wilkins wrote:
> Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>
>

> > Friar Broccoli <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >On Wed, 15 May 2013 22:52:04 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com>
>
> > >wrote:
>
> >
>

That's what they want you to think.

Besides, you wouldn't let any of those slimy critters into *your* diet, would you?

Not deliberately, at least.


Mitchell

[Mitchell Coffey]

Shoot, you beat me to it.

Mitchell

[Bob Casanova]

On Sat, 18 May 2013 18:58:02 -0400, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>:

>In article <kn5qq9$mvo$3...@reader1.panix.com>,
> Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> >>
>> >>Of course there were giants. Else who the heck were Gog
>> >>and Magog?
>>
>> >Conan the Barbarian?
>>
>> Conan is a later manifestation. Gog and Magog go way back.
>
>I'm more terrified of Conan the Banker.

And those of us with overdue books rightly fear Conan the
Librarian.
--

Bob C.

"The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries, is not
'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"

- Isaac Asimov

[Walter Bushell]

In article <sh2ip89i0olj8sahn...@4ax.com>,

Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off> wrote:

> On Sat, 18 May 2013 18:58:02 -0400, the following appeared
> in talk.origins, posted by Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>:
>
> >In article <kn5qq9$mvo$3...@reader1.panix.com>,
> > Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
> >
> >> >>
> >> >>Of course there were giants. Else who the heck were Gog
> >> >>and Magog?
> >>
> >> >Conan the Barbarian?
> >>
> >> Conan is a later manifestation. Gog and Magog go way back.
> >
> >I'm more terrified of Conan the Banker.
>
> And those of us with overdue books rightly fear Conan the
> Librarian.

Not to mention the 47% who are afraid of Conan the Libertarian.

[Ron O]

On May 17, 6:02�pm, Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:

Or the man eating sucking constrictor the syphon python.

Ron Okimoto

[jillery]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 04:21:49 -0700 (PDT), Ron O <roki...@cox.net>

wrote:

>On May 17, 6:02�pm, Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
>> SkyEyes <skyey...@cox.net> wrote:
>> >On May 17, 6:03?am, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>> >> In article <kn3nuv$8i...@reader1.panix.com>,
>> >> ?Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> > It is all Freud, all the way down. ?Many have been misled by
>> >> > a snake.
>>
>> >> Especially the one eyed trouser snake.
>> >...otherwise known as a piss viper.
>>
>> Then there's the one that fans itself, known as
>> a vindshield viper.
>>
>> --
>> � �--- Paul J. Gans
>
>Or the man eating sucking constrictor the syphon python.

Which is related to the species which specializes in preying on
members of the RCMP, the mountie python.

[Ron O]

On May 24, 6:59�am, jillery <69jpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 24 May 2013 04:21:49 -0700 (PDT), Ron O <rokim...@cox.net>

There is the crafty elusive predator that is observed sunning
themselves on the highways, the Dodge Viper.

[solar penguin]

And the winged snake, the feather boa.

[Paul J Gans]

Ron O <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

Were it and the Vindsheild Viper results of convergent evolution
or do they share a (recent) ancestor?

[Paul J Gans]

jillery <69jp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 24 May 2013 04:21:49 -0700 (PDT), Ron O <roki...@cox.net>
>wrote:

>>On May 17, 6:02?pm, Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
>>> SkyEyes <skyey...@cox.net> wrote:
>>> >On May 17, 6:03?am, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>>> >> In article <kn3nuv$8i...@reader1.panix.com>,
>>> >> ?Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >> > It is all Freud, all the way down. ?Many have been misled by
>>> >> > a snake.
>>>
>>> >> Especially the one eyed trouser snake.
>>> >...otherwise known as a piss viper.
>>>
>>> Then there's the one that fans itself, known as
>>> a vindshield viper.
>>>
>>> --

>>> ? ?--- Paul J. Gans

>>
>>Or the man eating sucking constrictor the syphon python.


>Which is related to the species which specializes in preying on
>members of the RCMP, the mountie python.

Or the new hybrid unreadable and unwritable language, rubyperl++.