I am not lying and i would like help
Mollie Lowman
I really am British, I really am a student and I really would like some
help.
could any Americans ( not too influenced by other people in this group)
please give me some idea about how they feel about the evolution/creation
debate. again I would like to know which state you are from and whether
evolution was taught in your school - simply to map the distribution of
feeling, not to gain propaganda material -.
if you don't want any one else to see your response you are welcome to
e-mail me direct mol...@tesco.net ( I don't know if you can see that from
the message, I'm not entirely sure how the system works)
Thank you
Mollie
echs_one
"Mollie Lowman" <Mol...@tesco.net> wrote in message
news:96toau$16$1...@epos.tesco.net...
I am from the US, I live in the state of Maryland not to far off from
Washington DC. Personally I think there is validity to the theory of
evolution. During my high school years evolution was tough both in the
public and catholic schools that I went to.
Noelie S. Alito
>
> I really am British, I really am a student and I really would like some
> help.
>
> could any Americans ( not too influenced by other people in this group)
> please give me some idea about how they feel about the evolution/creation
> debate. again I would like to know which state you are from and whether
> evolution was taught in your school - simply to map the distribution of
> feeling, not to gain propaganda material -.
I was born in 1960, went to parochial (Roman Catholic) schools
for grades 1-8, and to a "college prep" high school run by the
Dominican order (again, Catholic). Although I knew many non-
Catholics growing up, it was not until college (up north, with
a mixed student body) that I first encountered non-Catholics
who had never been around Catholics before, and who had
some really goofy ideas about what Catholics were and throught.
(These people were often *obsessed* about the pope, for
instance.) In my probably typical Catholic education, we had
some classes covering biological evolution which weren't
very in-depth, as they competed with other aspects of biology
(human anatomy, botany, cell structure), other areas of science
(chemistry and physics), other academic areas (various maths,
literature, "English," history, social studies, music, furn languages)
and more general practical topics (phys ed, "home economics,"
driving, first aid, and a typing class which turned out to be very
useful). I don't remember any theological conflict with any of
the sciences, biological or otherwise.
I had very little biology in college, but read much of the more
popular science magazines (SciAm, NatGeo) and books. My
favorite topics include neuropsychology (Sachs), pseudoscience
(Randi, Gardner) and evo biology (Gould, Dawkins, et al). I
have encountered crystal-huggers, astrologers and homeopathers
in my personal life, but I never really encountered anyone who
embraced this whole "Creation Science" nonsense that Gould,
Kitcher and Berra wrote about until I started reading talk.origins
and saw actual posts from actual creationists. I feel that many
of these people--often accused of lying--are genuinely incapable
of accepting any logic or evidence which conflicts with their
beliefs. (Others appear to know that they are wrong, but are
not capable of ever ceding any point in a rhetorical war. There
are some Rhetorical Warriors on the "evolutionist" side, too.)
From my experience, I would say that most Americans have
had rather limited exposure to evolutionary biology in school,
and it has no personal interest or importance to them. When
an earnest anti-evolutionist starts plying them with sophisticated-
sounding arguments and practiced rhetoric, I am not surprised
if they are easily swayed.
[As an aside: I'd like to point out to or remind you that in
the USofA, "public school" refers to one funded by taxes
and run by an arm of the state or local government.]
Good luck trying to get a grip on the American psyche.
Noelie
--
I don't know anyone who could get through the day without
two or three juicy rationalizations. They're more important
than sex. --Michael, The_Big_Chill
Jdguil
>news:96toau$16$1...@epos.tesco.net...
>> Hi
>>
>> I really am British, I really am a student and I really would like some
>> help.
>>
>> could any Americans ( not too influenced by other people in this group)
>> please give me some idea about how they feel about the evolution/creation
>> debate. again I would like to know which state you are from and whether
>> evolution was taught in your school - simply to map the distribution of
>> feeling, not to gain propaganda material -.
I grew up in the 60s and 70s in Texas. I do not remember learning anything
except evolution in the public schools. I learned about biblical creation
stories mostly at church (Roman Catholic), but I do not ever recall anyone
forcing the issue of the biblical stories as being literally, scientifically
true. I had a number of friends from conservative denominations such as
Southern Baptist and Church of Christ who did believe the creation stories were
scientifically correct. But these people were a minority even the very
conservative community where I grew up. I don't remember exactly when, but
sometime around the age of 10 or 12 I reached the conclusion that evolution was
scientifically correct and the bible stories were just meant as morality fairy
tales such as Aesop's fables.
I think that most creationists adopt their position for a combination of two
reasons: first, they are ignorant of science and well read in the bible, and
second, acceptance of evolution is irrelevant to their daily lives while the
bible is central to their social life. I live and teach in a small,
conservative southern community, and I encounter very few people who take the
Genesis story as literal science. Most 'creationists' I meet are more like
'theistic evolutionists': they believe in science and God at the same time, and
have some hazy overlap of how God must be running nature in some unexplained
manner. (This hazy understanding of science is not unusual. After all, how many
people actually understand the science of a telephone or TV?). When surveys of
Americans say that they favor teaching both creationism and science, I think
this is the view that is reflected. They don't mean teach a literal 6 day
creation or that the first people were named Adam and Eve and created from
clay. But rather that they are unhappy that any teaching of the origin of life
and the universe does not somehow mention God as well. I don't think the
average person has any coherent idea of what 'creationism' means in science.
There are a very few vocal advocates of biblical creationism (such as the
Institute for Creation Research) who I believe are deliberately (rather than
just from ignorance) attacking evolution.Their position has no scientific
merit, and is held solely for religious reasons. The great success of this
group has been to manipulate the ignorance of the average person and paint
evolution as being anti-Christian or anti-God.
Regards,
Jim
David Jensen
>
> I really am British, I really am a student and I really would like some
> help.
>
> could any Americans ( not too influenced by other people in this group)
> please give me some idea about how they feel about the evolution/creation
> debate.
There is no debate. The creationists are not interested in science. They
have declared that their interpretation of the beginning of Genesis is the
only possible interpretation. The vast majority of Christians in America and
the world reject that interpretation.
> again I would like to know which state you are from and whether
Wisconsin.
> evolution was taught in your school
I learned about it, but I went to a religious high school of a sect that is
approximately Young Earth Creationist. Despite that my physics/chem teacher
did not twist science to fit the religious beliefs.
Derek Vogt
size horrendously small, it's also an environment that draws those with
the greatest interest in the subject... which means it will also draw
the zealot kooks... which means that a sample taken in such a place is
likely to overrepresent the side with more zealot kooks (Creationism).
In other words, they're more common here than elsewhere in America...
MUCH more common.
It also means that this sample is bound to overrepresent how much
interest there is in the subject here. Most people by far accept
evolution but wouldn't bother giving it much thought and wouldn't choose
to join a newsgroup like this one where it's the topic of discussion.
Anyway, if it's anecdotes you're looking for, you'll get them here. Just
understand that it doesn't even faintly resemble a reasonable picture of
the overall situation.
Here's my anecdote: I don't recall where I first learned about evolution
because most of what I know about it comes from my own individual
pursuit. But I think it started in 2nd or 3rd grade science classes,
because I remember dinosaurs mentioned in 2nd grade and glacial movement
in 3rd (the latter standing out because the teacher the nature of this
"movement" wrong, and said she thought The Flood could explain the same
evidence... but then proceeded with the real science lesson anyway). At
that time, and through 5th grade, I was in a private Lutheran school. I
went to public schools after that. I lived in Missouri nearly 25 years,
from birth until a few months ago, when I moved to Florida and met my
first 3 young-Earth Creationists ever.
I think evolution is rather undertaught here, as many things are. Many
accept it but few really understand much about it. Also, while I don't
remember that Lutheran school's teachings in much detail, I do recall
that the Biblical Creation story sounded distinctly like a fairy-tale or
myth to me and I could never take it seriously. Oddly enough, though, I
don't remember or any other student ever asking why it was there when it
conflicted with the science, or any teacher addressing the conflict
either. Maybe I just didn't get old enough to think of such things, or
maybe, by the time I left that school, I had already dismissed Creation
copletely, and so didn't see a need to ask about it. I suspect that this
failure on teachers' part to address the conflict leads many students to
dismiss Christianty entirely, because it still teaches such silliness.
Elephant
answers from the fringes of the interest curve (if there is such a thing).
However, the nice thing about this group is that there are a lot of very
intelligent, qualified regulars who post complete, well-written discussion
and are genuinely interested in the natural sciences and education. I'm
constantly amazed at the quality of the answers I get when I ask
origin-related questions here. Even if you don't get the data you're looking
for in your survey, hang out and lurk for a while. It's worth your time, and
some of the flamewars are quite entertaining.
Mollie Lowman wrote:
> could any Americans ( not too influenced by other people in this group)
> please give me some idea about how they feel about the evolution/creation
> debate.
I'm dismayed that it's even considered a debate. However, the creationists
do provide a necessary impetus to refine one's understanding of science. A
lot of us get downright lazy about the science we learned in school, to our
own detriment. I think biological sciences will emerge the stronger from
overcoming the resistance offered by religious fundamentalism.
> again I would like to know which state you are from and whether
> evolution was taught in your school - simply to map the distribution of
> feeling, not to gain propaganda material -.
Born in 1969, I attended elementary and secondary school in New Mexico public
schools during the '70s and '80s. Evolution was taught in biology classes,
creationism was mentioned in history primarily as the foil for Darwin's
theory. I think this will be a typical situation, for those who attend
public schools throughout the US. Creationism is of historical interest for
examining scientific revolutions, it's not used at all for biology classes,
because it has absolutely nothing of scientific interest to offer the
students. It would be along the same lines as trying to teach geocentric
models of the solar system in astronomy classes.
--
~~to e-mail a reply, remove the obvious spam blockers~~
Eby
>
> I really am British, I really am a student and I really would like some
> help.
>
> could any Americans ( not too influenced by other people in this group)
> please give me some idea about how they feel about the evolution/creation
> debate.
Not much of a debate. Evidence is given and creationists say "I don't
believe you".
> again I would like to know which state you are from and whether
> evolution was taught in your school -
Michigan. It was taught in my Lutheran school (preschool - 8) but I don't
remember it being taught in my high school. This is most likely because my
biology class sucked. I learned most of it on my own. College - learned the
shit over again.
> simply to map the distribution of
> feeling, not to gain propaganda material -.
You are getting a specific distribution of feelings though. Don't take our
opinions as the common American opinion. You will find die-hard creationists
and evolutionists on this group. Don't mistake this for the average
American, who I would hope is generally smarter that the cretinists.
Mollie Lowman
lots of food for thought. if you have any more hints and/or tips for me
please continue to give them.
Thanks again, Mollie
Eby <nos...@spam.com> wrote in message
news:96v94r$2hpn$1...@msunews.cl.msu.edu...
sarah clark
>
> Hi
>
> I really am British, I really am a student and I really would like some
> help.
>
> could any Americans ( not too influenced by other people in this group)
> please give me some idea about how they feel about the evolution/creation
> debate. again I would like to know which state you are from and whether
> evolution was taught in your school - simply to map the distribution of
> feeling, not to gain propaganda material -.
hi mollie i am from texas and they didn't teach evolution in high
school where i went. wf3h has information regarding the gablers,
maybe he will post, who have been influencing the textbooks in
texas.
my minor in biology at cornell, i learned piecemeal many of the
basics, and we cover it in church (evolution i mean).
talkorigins.org is also an excellent reference
larry is correct when he states you should learn more
about evolution.
--
sarah clark
Would you not like to be
Sitting on top of the world,
with your legs hanging free?
Would you not like to be ?
Okay, okay, okay
- Dave Matthews Band
Sanjay
public school system (Northwest Georgia) at the sixth grade, evolution was
taught as false and school prayer was practiced up until the 7th grade. The
sixth grade teacher was a real religious fanatic. He thought that Saturday
was the Sabbath because it sounded like the word. I made the mistake of
telling him to put an n on Satur Day, and you would get Saturn Day; I receive
a paddling for that. Biology was not required in high school at the time, but
you had to take Physics, Chemistry, and Physical Science if you elected to
not take Biology.
As for my view on evolution, the physical evident is overwhelming and my
religious views are that of the Christian faith. As I see it if there is a
God then he must have used evolution as a tool.
Sanjay
Generic454381810
contact with creationist propaganda if one hadnt been seated in front of me in
homeroom. We spent four years debating the subject and he eventually became
high school valedictorian (to my B average, boo hoo). A man who believed that
satan had planted the entire fossil record pulled a better GPA than I and I
have always felt greatly ashamed by this.
I apologize to all supporters of evolution, I should probably be shot or
something.
Gromit
grades? After all what better 'victim' than one who denies God's
evidence as shown to us by the data He has made available in His Creation?
Would that not be ironic?
wf...@ptd.net
>Mollie Lowman wrote:
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> I really am British, I really am a student and I really would like some
>> help.
>>
>> could any Americans ( not too influenced by other people in this group)
>> please give me some idea about how they feel about the evolution/creation
>> debate. again I would like to know which state you are from and whether
>> evolution was taught in your school - simply to map the distribution of
>> feeling, not to gain propaganda material -.
>
>hi mollie i am from texas and they didn't teach evolution in high
>school where i went. wf3h has information regarding the gablers,
>maybe he will post, who have been influencing the textbooks in
>texas.
>
yes, mel an norma gabler were regular testifiers at the texas
schoolboard meetings for years. they managed to keep evolution out of
texts selected for the texas public schools..and a number of other
states as well, since publishers generally try to make a 'one size
fits all' textbook.
a few yrs ago, scientists, et al, mounted a campaign to have these
idiots dethroned. steven weinberg, nobel physics laureate, testified
before the schoolboard about science, including evolution. after this,
little mel and norma found themselves outvoted, and science was
finally able to be taught to kids in texas.
Aron-Ra
Generic454381810 <generic4...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010222221623...@ng-xc1.aol.com...
Oh damn, that's funny. But take heart. Look who made president.
Aron-Ra
Aron-Ra
>
> I really am British, I really am a student and I really would like some
> help.
>
> could any Americans ( not too influenced by other people in this group)
> please give me some idea about how they feel about the evolution/creation
> debate. again I would like to know which state you are from and whether
> evolution was taught in your school - simply to map the distribution of
> feeling, not to gain propaganda material -.
I was born in 1962 and raised in an exclusively creationist environment in
Eastern Arizona. That community was mainly Morman and they adhered to
creationism until relatively recently. I have been accosted and even
physically attacked by zealotous creationists of other faiths since we moved
to Los Angeles when I was about twelve, primarily because they thought I was
Mormon. I have countless negative encounters with them and see them as
insane, stupid, intolorant, hateful, bigoted idiots without exception. I
also see them as the vast majority of the population as I never even met a
non-creationist until my teen years and that was Los Angeles after all, one
of the most hedonistic and godless cities in the U.S.
I was not taught evolution at all ever in public school.
In grade school, my teachers told me;
a) that George Washington chopped down a cherry tree, (he didn't)
b) That Nathan Hale proclaimed "I regret that I have but one life to give
for my country" (he begged for his life on the excuse that he was only
following orders)
c) That Christopher Columbus died of a broken arm. (syphillis)
Our history classes teach only American history and nothing else until
college. I learned nothing of world history until college and nothing
objectively critical of religion until I took art history and the history of
ancient civilizations, both of which were hotly contested by the almost
entirely Christian student body. What makes that particularly sad is that
most Europeans know more about our history than we do.
I also went to primary school where I was heavily indoctrinated with
Biblical creationism. In that class, we also had to attend church services.
In 1972, the elder speaking at the podium made the following claim;
"They've found the sandalled footprints of a man walking alongside dinosaur
footprints in a riverbed in Texas. This prooves conclusively that they were
Adam's footprints and that evolution is false". I was eight or nine and I
whispered to my grandmother that the speaker must be lying, because how
could he know that it was specifically Adam's footprints. I didn't get to
finish that sentence because my grandmother punched me without a word and it
left me out of breath, shocked, and horrified.
At that time, my grandmother still believed that the sun orbited the Earth
and there were "no such things as dinosaurs", because they weren't in the
Bible.
I went to high school in El Paso,Texas and took the exact same classes with
the same text books that I had already taken in California middle-schools.
(then called Junior high, covering 7th and 8th grade only) The entirety of
the student body were religious and the vast majority were anti-evolutionist
YECs, (Young Earth Creationists). Even my best friend in high school
eventually became an ordained Southern Baptist minister and will not speak
to me anymore for religious reasons.
One girl in my literature class brought a note from her parents excusing her
from learning about Greek mythology because she was a Christian and was not
to be taught pagan beliefs. I'm not kidding.
In my sophomore year, I asked the instructor why they taught Roman, Greek,
and Norse myths, but nothing about Sumerian or Babylonian mythology. Her
answer was that they were not allowed to even mention Mesopotamian myths. I
didn't discover the source of the contraversy until my last months in
college.
College wasn't much better. The creationists had demonstrators everywhere.
Although there were none to be found in Evolutionary Theory 101. That was a
3rd year college course and the very first attempt to teach evolution at any
level. Of course it was an elevtive course even for all but some of the
biology majors. Baiscally, if you're not striving to be a paleontologist,
you'll never learn about evolution in Texas schools. At that time, I was a
theistic evolutionist due to the fact that our media frequently presents
pseudo-documentaries of "conclusively proven" subjects such as the discovery
of Noah's ark and the existence of ghosts. I believe Charles Manson once
said; "You can convince anyone of anything, if you tell it to them enough
times".
I eventually became involved with hostorical renaissance groups who were the
only groups of people with any real number of non-Christians. Still no
atheists in that group either, but there were some pretending to be
neo-pagans. One of them lost his 13year-old son to another child armed with
a gun and the Biblical directive; "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live".
My children are now attending school in this idiotic state (from whence our
new relgious president came) and my 13 year-old daughter is frequently
handed Chick tracts by many of her classmates. If you don't know what those
are, check out the thread; "If you think Chick tracts sound sane, you're
not" elsewhere in this NG. All of her friends are religious and all invite
her to church as do all of her collective grandparents, (all of whom are
devout creationists as well) I'm not terribly concerned though, since she
volunteered to work at the local museum of natural history and helps out in
the paleontology lab.
I currently work in a computer technical support call center where the
number of creationists is probably less than half. But my last job was in
an office where all of the staff were creationists and no one but the head
of the IT department even knew the speed of light. (he was not religious at
all) I once sculpted a trilobite and everyone at work who saw it thought I
had a giant cockroach and "didn't believe in prehistoric things".
I consider myself rather patiotic, but in my opinion, over half of the
American population are ignorant, apathetic, self-centered sensationalists
with the equivilent intelligence of processed cheese and it wouldn't take
very many hours of American television to understand what I mean.
Aron-Ra
Mike Haubrich
<wf...@ptd.net> wrote in message news:3a98242b...@news.ptdprolog.net...
Minnesota. We had evolution as an integral part of biology in high school.
In 11th grade, however, our history teacher took an informal poll of what
our beliefs were regarding Creation v Evolution -
23 - Creation
1 - Evolution
Even worse - I was going through a Jesus Freak phase at that time and voted
for Creation even though I knew better.
My how we twist ourselves.
WickedDyno
"Mike Haubrich" <tui...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Really. What was your rationalization of that?
--
| Andrew Glasgow <amg39(at)cornell.edu> |
| SCSI is *NOT* magic. There are *fundamental technical |
| reasons* why it is necessary to sacrifice a young goat |
| to your SCSI chain now and then. -- John Woods |
Mike Haubrich
"WickedDyno" <amg39.RE...@cornell.edu.invalid> wrote in message
news:amg39.REMOVETHIS-F5...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu...
I felt that even though I understood evolution, everyone knew that I was a
Christian. If they thought that I didn't really believe in the Bible, then
they wouldn't take me seriously when I witnessed.
I guess I was a nascent Creation Scientist, eh?
WickedDyno
"Mike Haubrich" <tui...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Could be. I wonder how many real creationists are under the same
situation -- they don't really believe it, but they say they do for fear
of being ostracized?
Christopher Peters
WickedDyno <amg39.RE...@cornell.edu.invalid> wrote:
>
>Could be. I wonder how many real creationists are under the same
>situation -- they don't really believe it, but they say they do for fear
>of being ostracized?
>
>--
>| Andrew Glasgow <amg39(at)cornell.edu> |
>| SCSI is *NOT* magic. There are *fundamental technical |
>| reasons* why it is necessary to sacrifice a young goat |
>| to your SCSI chain now and then. -- John Woods |
>
--
Chris Peters (cpe...@world.std.com)
"Real programmers don't use mice."