wresting with dualism

[Dale]

well I have put aside theology for the most part, I'm not trying to make
an argument for beneficial creation here

I don't believe in an All-Powerful benefactor, since suffering exists,
and suffering is not beneficial, and suffering is not a beneficial
creation, so no prayer, worship, or hope resides here

but I still wrestle with the idea of spirits either as a dualism within
the body, or just angels or demons that live amongst the universe and
various light or dark energies

does consciousness have will, or is will the kernel of consciousness?

same argument for subconscious and unconscious, or is one of those and
their will, the kernel of consciousness? is life determined by a
subconscious will passed on down to the being via genetics? is life a
shared dream conjured up by a common subconscious. Is that common
subconscious a living soul? Probably more like Odin than Jehovah. Are
there truly alpha and beta spirits? On earth or amongst the heavens?


are those kernels subject to other forces as opposed to being free
wills? I think they are subject, I don't think we have free wills, we
have wills that want to be free, and sometimes get to. This sort of
makes a compatible argument for determinism and free will.





--
Dale

[Syamsu]

The spiritual is a general category name for what choses, material is
the category name for what is chosen.

Material can be measured, measurement is a way of passing on or
copying information, resulting in facts.

The spiritual can only be identified through a way of choosing,
expression of emotion, resulting in an opinion.

The question who you are as the owner of your choices, must therefore
be answered with a chice.

Focus on how the choice is made, rather then the result of the choice.

[*Hemidactylus*]

On Fri, 25 May 2012 04:42:21 -0400, Dale wrote:

> well I have put aside theology for the most part, I'm not trying to make
> an argument for beneficial creation here
>
> I don't believe in an All-Powerful benefactor, since suffering exists,
> and suffering is not beneficial, and suffering is not a beneficial
> creation, so no prayer, worship, or hope resides here

So you have wrestled with the problem of evil and the concept of God lost.

> but I still wrestle with the idea of spirits either as a dualism within
> the body, or just angels or demons that live amongst the universe and
> various light or dark energies

Then you are not finished grappling.

> does consciousness have will, or is will the kernel of consciousness?

Correlation is not causation. Both originate from a deeper neurally based
cause.

> same argument for subconscious and unconscious, or is one of those and
> their will, the kernel of consciousness?

See above.

>is life determined by a
> subconscious will passed on down to the being via genetics?

We've dealt with this before. Life belongs in a set much larger than
those being with "subsconscious will". Bacteria cannot have what we
subjectively experience as well developed brain having humans.

> is life a
> shared dream conjured up by a common subconscious.

We each have illusions and delusions. Some are shared amongst cultures
such a delusions like religions and the illusion of free will prevalent
in Western cultures that make a cult of individualism and the self-made
man. Ayn Rand's religion was an exemplar of this creed which crosses the
line into delusion.

> Is that common
> subconscious a living soul?

Jung believed in a collective unconscious that was possessed by
individuals and could be, in modern parlance of evolutionary psychology,
determined genetically. Durkheim, if I recall correctly, believed in a
shared state represented collectively at the irreducible level of
culture. I would not refer to either as a living soul.

> Probably more like Odin than Jehovah. Are
> there truly alpha and beta spirits? On earth or amongst the heavens?

Huh?

> are those kernels subject to other forces as opposed to being free
> wills?

Yep.

>I think they are subject, I don't think we have free wills, we
> have wills that want to be free, and sometimes get to. This sort of
> makes a compatible argument for determinism and free will.

Good luck with that. I'm an eliminativist.

[John Stockwell]

On Friday, May 25, 2012 2:42:21 AM UTC-6, Dale wrote:
> well I have put aside theology for the most part, I'm not trying to make
> an argument for beneficial creation here
>
> I don't believe in an All-Powerful benefactor, since suffering exists,
> and suffering is not beneficial, and suffering is not a beneficial
> creation, so no prayer, worship, or hope resides here
>
> but I still wrestle with the idea of spirits either as a dualism within
> the body, or just angels or demons that live amongst the universe and
> various light or dark energies

Why clutter up the universe with hypothetical "entities"?

>
> does consciousness have will, or is will the kernel of consciousness?

Are you sure that there is such a thing as "consciousness"?

>
> same argument for subconscious and unconscious, or is one of those and
> their will, the kernel of consciousness? is life determined by a
> subconscious will passed on down to the being via genetics? is life a
> shared dream conjured up by a common subconscious. Is that common
> subconscious a living soul? Probably more like Odin than Jehovah. Are
> there truly alpha and beta spirits? On earth or amongst the heavens?
>

"Will" is an obsolete term from the 19th century.

[lilian sejko]

Shicyn

[jonathan]

"Dale" <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:5lk66k....@news.alt.net...

> well I have put aside theology for the most part, I'm not trying to make
> an argument for beneficial creation here
>
> I don't believe in an All-Powerful benefactor, since suffering exists,

Would you banish the frost for the flowers
it kills, eliminate oceans for the drowned, or
get rid of freedom for their wars of liberation?
Or ban emotions for the crimes?

If spring is Good, does that make winter Evil?

The duality you wrestle with is between creation
and destruction, order and chaos...birth and death.
Which one would you eliminate? And how could
anything be alive without both?

Citing the 'evils' of reality as a reason against
having faith in something 'more', is no more
sensible than tossing the baby out with
the bath water.

> and suffering is not beneficial, and suffering is not a beneficial
> creation, so no prayer, worship, or hope resides here
>
> but I still wrestle with the idea of spirits either as a dualism within
> the body, or just angels or demons that live amongst the universe and
> various light or dark energies

>
> does consciousness have will, or is will the kernel of consciousness?

I believe there are few limits to the ability of
consciousness and will. If enough people want
something bad enough, almost anything becomes
possible, even our wildest dreams.


"To be alive is Power
Existence in itself
Without a further function
Omnipotence Enough

To be alive and Will!
'Tis able as a God
The Maker of Ourselves be what
Such being Finitude!"


As the old poem says, we should stop wondering
'why' and 'how', and start figuring out what
we should be doing with it instead.

>
> same argument for subconscious and unconscious, or is one of those and
> their will, the kernel of consciousness? is life determined by a
> subconscious will passed on down to the being via genetics? is life a
> shared dream conjured up by a common subconscious. Is that common
> subconscious a living soul? Probably more like Odin than Jehovah. Are
> there truly alpha and beta spirits? On earth or amongst the heavens?

There is only systems and those ethereal system properties.
Properties or tendencies that guide and tune systems
towards the better solution. Like a market force
for instance, an emergent property that vanishes the moment
the system is stopped long enough to measure it.

Things like life, intelligence, wisdom, free-will and
imagination are all emergent system properties.
All the things which are important and give meaning
to reality are NOT tangible objects open to
rational scientific methods.

The duality in nature is that the only things
which can be known with certainty, are that
which matters the ...least.

Uncertainty is the source of volatility, which is
the source of complexity, which is the source
of the self-organization of all things, physical
or living. And higher emergent properties are
the result of organization.

God help us all if ...uncertainty is ever
eliminated.

>
>
> are those kernels subject to other forces as opposed to being free wills?
> I think they are subject, I don't think we have free wills, we have wills
> that want to be free, and sometimes get to. This sort of makes a
> compatible argument for determinism and free will.
>
>

Our reality is mostly the product of the dreams and hopes
of those that came before us. And likewise, the future
is highly dependent upon our subjective realities.

The future can become almost anything at all.


Jonathan


Self-Organizing Faq
http://calresco.org/sos/sosfaq.htm

Calresco Themes (*in essay form)
http://calresco.org/themes.htm

Dynamics of Complex Systems
(full online textbook)
http://www.necsi.org/publications/dcs/

Steinhardt
Director, Princeton Center for Theoretical Physics
http://wwwphy.princeton.edu/~steinh/cycliccosmology.html






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>
>
>
> --
> Dale
>