[MODNOTE] Innd upgraded to 2.6.1

[David Greig]

Upgraded innd this morning and restarted. Outgoing queue working.

--D.


--
david iain greig dgr...@ediacara.org
moderator, talk.origins sp4 kox
http://www.ediacara.org/~dgreig arbor plena alouattarum

[David Greig]

On 2017-07-22, David Greig <dgr...@beagle.ediacara.org> wrote:
> Upgraded innd this morning and restarted. Outgoing queue working.

Incoming queue also working once inews is chmod 4755.

--D.

[dale]

testing threading

--
dale - http://www.dalekelly.org

[John Harshman]

On 7/22/17 4:37 AM, dale wrote:
> On 7/22/17 2:31 AM, David Greig wrote:
>> On 2017-07-22, David Greig <dgr...@beagle.ediacara.org> wrote:
>>> Upgraded innd this morning and restarted. Outgoing queue working.
>>
>> Incoming queue also working once inews is chmod 4755.
>>
>> --D.
>>
>
> testing threading
>

Threading seems to work for some posts, not others. How about this one?

[John Harshman]

Nope.

[jillery]

On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 07:37:37 -0400, dale <da...@dalekelly.org> wrote:

>On 7/22/17 2:31 AM, David Greig wrote:
>> On 2017-07-22, David Greig <dgr...@beagle.ediacara.org> wrote:
>>> Upgraded innd this morning and restarted. Outgoing queue working.
>>
>> Incoming queue also working once inews is chmod 4755.
>>
>> --D.
>>
>
>testing threading

Good idea. The more references the better.

--
I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Attributed to Voltaire

[jillery]

In your headers, and presumably all headers from your Usenet server,
each reference is posted as individual lines.

In my headers, and presumably all headers from my Usenet server,
references are concatenated, up to some arbitrary length.

My hypothesis is Beagle nee Darwin is still dropping all but the first
References: line.

[John Harshman]

On 7/22/17 7:44 AM, jillery wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 06:45:27 -0700, John Harshman
> <jhar...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>> On 7/22/17 6:05 AM, John Harshman wrote:
>>> On 7/22/17 4:37 AM, dale wrote:
>>>> On 7/22/17 2:31 AM, David Greig wrote:
>>>>> On 2017-07-22, David Greig <dgr...@beagle.ediacara.org> wrote:
>>>>>> Upgraded innd this morning and restarted. Outgoing queue working.
>>>>>
>>>>> Incoming queue also working once inews is chmod 4755.
>>>>>
>>>>> --D.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> testing threading
>>>>
>>> Threading seems to work for some posts, not others. How about this one?
>>>
>> Nope.
>
>
> In your headers, and presumably all headers from your Usenet server,
> each reference is posted as individual lines.
>
> In my headers, and presumably all headers from my Usenet server,
> references are concatenated, up to some arbitrary length.
>
> My hypothesis is Beagle nee Darwin is still dropping all but the first
> References: line.

This seems to be a very good hypothesis. After all, it's happened before.

[dale]

On 7/22/17 7:37 AM, dale wrote:
> On 7/22/17 2:31 AM, David Greig wrote:
>> On 2017-07-22, David Greig <dgr...@beagle.ediacara.org> wrote:
>>> Upgraded innd this morning and restarted. Outgoing queue working.
>>
>> Incoming queue also working once inews is chmod 4755.
>>
>> --D.
>>
>
> testing threading
>

threaded to the original post not the followup as designed, still broken

message ID of the original post
Message-ID: <dgreig-slrnon5...@beagle.ediacara.org>

reference of the followup
References: <dgreig-slrnon5...@beagle.ediacara.org>

reference of my followup to the followup
References: <dgreig-slrnon5...@beagle.ediacara.org>

mine isn't getting all references

80 character limit on what is included in reference header?

[dale]

yours is nesting fine within the thread

[jillery]

On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 08:55:29 -0700, John Harshman

Yes, as I posted previously, and as implied by "still dropping". The
presumption was that DIG's latest change would have eliminated the
problem.

[Jonathan]

On 7/22/2017 7:37 AM, dale wrote:
> On 7/22/17 2:31 AM, David Greig wrote:
>> On 2017-07-22, David Greig <dgr...@beagle.ediacara.org> wrote:
>>> Upgraded innd this morning and restarted. Outgoing queue working.
>>
>> Incoming queue also working once inews is chmod 4755.
>>
>> --D.
>>
>
> testing threading
>

testing threading test

[Jonathan]

On 7/22/2017 10:25 AM, jillery wrote:




‘What a fuss about an omelette!’ How abominably unjust
to persecute a man for such an airy trifle as that!

~ Voltaire


Later distorted into the entirely different
statement below by Evelyn Beatrice Hall
http://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/06/01/defend-say/

> I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
>
> Evelyn Beatrice Hall
> Attributed to Voltaire

The original quote appears to state that the
disproportionate response was unjust. Not that
any repression of free speech is unjust.





If He were living -- dare I ask
And how if He be dead
And so around the Words I went
Of meeting them -- afraid

I hinted Changes -- Lapse of Time
The Surfaces of Years
I touched with Caution -- lest they crack
And show me to my fears

Reverted to adjoining Lives
Adroitly turning out
Wherever I suspected Graves
'Twas prudenter -- I thought

And He -- I pushed -- with sudden force
In face of the Suspense
"Was buried" -- "Buried"! "He!"
My Life just holds the Trench






s

[Jonathan]

Failed, all my posts are threaded to the
original post, no matter who I respond
to.

[Robert Carnegie]

Pmfji, DIG has updated the stardard "InterNetNews
Daemon" program that he uses to a new(ish) released
version (December 11th 2016). Apparently:
<https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/software/inn/>

However, we suspect that his own custom script
for message mangling is interfering with message
header content, specifically, References lines
identifying previous messages.

[J. J. Lodder]

dale <da...@dalekelly.org> wrote:

> On 7/22/17 2:31 AM, David Greig wrote:
> > On 2017-07-22, David Greig <dgr...@beagle.ediacara.org> wrote:
> >> Upgraded innd this morning and restarted. Outgoing queue working.
> >
> > Incoming queue also working once inews is chmod 4755.
> >
> > --D.
> >
>
> testing threading

Failed,

Jan

[Martin Harran]

>Faile ...

...but yours didn't

[J. J. Lodder]

Failed,

Jan

[Martin Harran]

Neither did mine!

All posted using Forte Agent if that makes a difference.

[jillery]

On Sun, 23 Jul 2017 17:50:03 +0100, Martin Harran

Nope. The Usenet server makes the difference.

--

[Martin Harran]

On Sun, 23 Jul 2017 17:50:03 +0100, Martin Harran

Wow, four levels worked, I wonder will five?

[dale]

how 'bout this one?

[Martin Harran]

On Sun, 23 Jul 2017 18:25:29 +0100, Martin Harran

Let's try five

[David Greig]

On 2017-07-23, jillery <69jp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Jul 2017 17:50:03 +0100, Martin Harran
><martin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 23 Jul 2017 15:50:04 +0100, Martin Harran
>><martin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 23 Jul 2017 13:43:11 +0200, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
>>>Lodder) wrote:
>>>
>>>>dale <da...@dalekelly.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 7/22/17 2:31 AM, David Greig wrote:
>>>>> > On 2017-07-22, David Greig <dgr...@beagle.ediacara.org> wrote:

>>>>> >> Upgraded innd this morning and restarted. Outgoing queue working.
>>>>> >

>>>>> > Incoming queue also working once inews is chmod 4755.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --D.
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> testing threading
>>>>
>>>>Faile ...
>>>
>>>...but yours didn't
>>
>>Neither did mine!
>>
>>All posted using Forte Agent if that makes a difference.
>
>

> Nope. The Usenet server makes the difference.
>

I have to say that slrn is threading these perfectly.

Can we get a list of "I USE NEWS_SERVER_XX AND THREADING WORKS/FAILS WITH CLIENT_YYY

eg: I use slrn on beagle and threading works.`

--D.

[David Greig]

On 2017-07-22, David Greig <dgr...@beagle.ediacara.org> wrote:

> Upgraded innd this morning and restarted. Outgoing queue working.
>
> --D.
>
>

Actually I may have found a feature in innd that horked References.

--D.

[David Greig]

Bloop bloop.

--D.

[Wolffan]

On 2017 Jul 25, David Greig wrote
(in article<dgreig-slrnond...@beagle.ediacara.org>):

I use Hogwasher and threading usually works.

[jillery]

Look at the attribution list in your post, there are 9 levels Now
compare it to the references: list in your post's header, which has
but one, to your OP. The latter should never be shorter than the
former.

[jillery]

On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 06:11:16 -0400, jillery <69jp...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Oopsie, 7, not 9.

[jillery]

On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 06:14:04 -0400, Wolffan <AKWo...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Usually?

AIUI some newsreaders display posts strictly by date. But in order to
display posts by which replied to what, newsreaders rely on the
references: list. Forte Agent for example can toggle between both
ways.

[Carl Kaufmann]

Seamonkey 2.51 on 64-bit Windows 10 - threading works.

[Carl Kaufmann]

I should add, posting/reading through eternal-september.

[dale]

bloop

[dale]

did this one work?

[dale]

worked

[jillery]

Yep, and even with multi-line References:

It was just a matter of time before DIG figured it out again.

[John Harshman]

I use Giganews, news.giganews.com to be exact. Threading fails, at least
on Thunderbird, which is all I've tried.

[Don Cates]

eternalseptember/Thunderbird - threading failed when beagle came online
but is now working.

--
--
Don Cates ("he's a cunning rascal" PN)

[dale]

features ..., even worse than man pages, I once found a man page for man
pages and it started and went on with system configuration longer than
my patience to find the part of the manual on basic syntax

[Robert Camp]

Ditto.

[Mark Isaak]

With Thunderbird, I see some threading success and some threading fails.
I don't remember for sure, but I think my posts using
eternal-september were among the fails. We'll soon see for sure.

--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) curioustaxonomy (dot) net
"Ignorance, allied with power, is the most ferocious enemy justice can
have." - James Baldwin

[Burkhard]

eternalseptember/seamonkey - working now

[John Harshman]

DIG to the rescue.

[Wolffan]

On 2017 Jul 25, jillery wrote
(in article<qo8enc96s44i42mjq...@4ax.com>):

Very rarely it misbehaves. I haven’t tracked down any reason for the
occurences, which are not limited to this newsgroup and are probably due to
(a) bug(s) in the app itself

[Wolffan]

On 2017 Jul 25, dale wrote
(in article <ah47th....@news.alt.net>):

seems so.

[dale]

your followup:

References: <dgreig-slrnon5...@beagle.ediacara.org>
<dgreig-slrnond...@beagle.ediacara.org>
<ol7f62$tcu$1...@dont-email.me> <ol7fpt$tcu$2...@dont-email.me>
<ah47th....@news.alt.net>

to my post:

References: <dgreig-slrnon5...@beagle.ediacara.org>
<dgreig-slrnond...@beagle.ediacara.org>
<ol7f62$tcu$1...@dont-email.me> <ol7fpt$tcu$2...@dont-email.me>

seems to work for both a long references header and a one line per
reference in references header

[Robert Carnegie]

Offtopic and I'm out of my depth, but I'm also
curious. Is this in fact a bug? Or a novel
method to shoot yourself in the foot? Most
computer software provides that option, but
in some cases you have to work at it.

Google Groups - sorry, I rarely look at a tree
graph of posts.

[Martin Harran]

On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 07:57:05 -0000 (UTC), David Greig
<dgr...@beagle.ediacara.org> wrote:

I use Forte Agent with news.individual.net and eternal-september. Some
posts including my own have been nesting perfectly, others weren't but
I never figured out the difference between them. Seems okay now,
Dale's replies, for example, were not nesting but now are.

[Mark Isaak]

On 7/25/17 8:47 AM, Mark Isaak wrote:
> On 7/25/17 8:05 AM, John Harshman wrote:
>> On 7/25/17 12:57 AM, David Greig wrote:

>>> [...]

>>> Can we get a list of "I USE NEWS_SERVER_XX AND THREADING WORKS/FAILS
>>> WITH CLIENT_YYY
>>>
>>> eg: I use slrn on beagle and threading works.`
>>>
>>> --D.
>>>
>> I use Giganews, news.giganews.com to be exact. Threading fails, at
>> least on Thunderbird, which is all I've tried.
>
> With Thunderbird, I see some threading success and some threading fails.
> I don't remember for sure, but I think my posts using
> eternal-september were among the fails. We'll soon see for sure.

It worked. (Given all the other posts, you probably figured that out
already.)

[jillery]

On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 12:39:37 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
<rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, 25 July 2017 09:10:04 UTC+1, David Greig wrote:
>> On 2017-07-22, David Greig <dgr...@beagle.ediacara.org> wrote:
>> > Upgraded innd this morning and restarted. Outgoing queue working.
>> >
>> > --D.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Actually I may have found a feature in innd
>> that horked References.
>
>Offtopic and I'm out of my depth, but I'm also
>curious. Is this in fact a bug? Or a novel
>method to shoot yourself in the foot? Most
>computer software provides that option, but
>in some cases you have to work at it.

Yes, it's a bug, one that happened before, and is now fixed again. Not
sure how you think it's a method of foot-shooting, unless you think
choice of Usenet server qualifies.

>Google Groups - sorry, I rarely look at a tree
>graph of posts.

Some trees are more interesting than others.

[Carl Kaufmann]

Worked for me (as expected).

[Andre G. Isaak]

In article <dgreig-slrnond...@beagle.ediacara.org>,

MT Newswatcher in Mac OS 10.6.8 Virtual Machine/Eternal
September/threading seems to work.

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail service.

[*Hemidactylus*]

On NewsTap for iOS and looks as though threading is working again, though I
had to tap into the threading function to check. I usually follow by date
posted.

[jillery]

On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 16:27:55 -0400, Carl Kaufmann <cwkau...@cox.net>
wrote:

Yes. Not sure how anybody thought the problem was associated with
Usenet readers.

[David Greig]

On 2017-07-25, Mark Isaak <eciton@curiousta/xyz/xonomy.net> wrote:

The issue seems to be that some news clients post References: in a single,
concatenated string. Others Put a References: header and one Article-ID,
followed by as many lines, beginning with whitespace and containing a
single Article-ID, as are required to include all references.

Depending on an interaction with the bot and inews (the actual binary
that posts the articles), inews could simply take the first References:
line and drop the rest. The news clients that sent a one-line References:
header were fine with this, the multi-line ones were truncated at a single
Article-ID. I've forced inews to take multiline headers now; one
problem left is that the one-line References: clients will run into a
hardcoded line length limit in inews at some point, I think. Like 1024
characters or something. I don't have a fix for that other than truncating
References: headers in the bot. This will break threading. But I
will cross that bridge when I come to it...

--D.

--
david iain greig dgr...@ediacara.org
moderator, talk.origins sp4 kox
http://www.ediacara.org/~dgreig arbor plena alouattarum

[jillery]

On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 21:27:54 -0000 (UTC), David Greig
<dgr...@beagle.ediacara.org> wrote:

>On 2017-07-25, Mark Isaak <eciton@curiousta/xyz/xonomy.net> wrote:
>
>The issue seems to be that some news clients post References: in a single,
>concatenated string. Others Put a References: header and one Article-ID,
>followed by as many lines, beginning with whitespace and containing a
>single Article-ID, as are required to include all references.
>
>Depending on an interaction with the bot and inews (the actual binary
>that posts the articles), inews could simply take the first References:
>line and drop the rest. The news clients that sent a one-line References:
>header were fine with this, the multi-line ones were truncated at a single
>Article-ID. I've forced inews to take multiline headers now; one
>problem left is that the one-line References: clients will run into a
>hardcoded line length limit in inews at some point, I think. Like 1024
>characters or something. I don't have a fix for that other than truncating
>References: headers in the bot. This will break threading. But I
>will cross that bridge when I come to it...
>
>--D.

So Refernces: are generated by the client, not the servers. My bad.
Thank you for making that technical point clear.

There were similar problems in T.O. several years back, where old
topics would suddenly spawn new topics with each new post. This
sounds like a possible consequence of what you describe above. That
particular problem affected GG posts at that time, and hasn't shown up
since then, which suggests it's only a hypothetical problem now.

Also, a couple of years back, when you replaced Darwin's mobo, you had
to rebuild the OS, a consequence of which was similar threading
problems as described here. Is the cause of threading problems this
time different from that time? If not, what you did to fix it last
time worked great, at least until this latest rebuild.