I give up on ICR
Diamond Dust
asking a serious question. They can't handle questions apparently so
they just snipped my post. They even deleted my username and all I did
was ask the light from stars quesiton.
Pat James
(in message <5109-3B5...@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net>):
Congratulations. You asked them a question they knew would give a problem if
they answered honestly, so they deleted the question and kicked you out
rather than answer. This, IMHO, says all that need be said about them.
--
Scientific creationism: a religious dogma combining massive ignorance with
incredible arrogance.
Creationist: (1) One who follows creationism. (2) A moron. (3) A person
incapable of doing math. (4) A liar. (5) A very gullible true believer.
ZenIsWhen
This is where I wish I could remember the line from "Inherit the Wind" about
how people react when you destroy their fantasies and beliefs.
J Forbes
Welcome to the real world!
Jim
Mark VandeWettering
Thanks for running the experiment. I can't say I am especially surprised.
Mark
--
/* __ __ __ ____ __*/float m,a,r,k,v;main(i){for(;r<4;r+=.1){for(a=0;
/*| \/ |\ \ / /\ \ / /*/a<4;a+=.06){k=v=0;for(i=99;--i&&k*k+v*v<4;)m=k*k
/*| |\/| | \ V / \ \/\/ / */-v*v+a-2,v=2*k*v+r-2,k=m;putchar("X =."[i&3]);}
/*|_| |_ark\_/ande\_/\_/ettering <ma...@telescopemaking.org> */puts("");}}
Dave Oldridge
248.iap.bryant.webtv.net:
Of course. They are not in the business of answering the questions of
skeptics. They are in the business of milking the purses of the faithful.
--
Dave Oldridge
ICQ 1800667
==============================================================================
================
Paradoxically, nearly all real events are highly improbable
--me, 2000AD
petera
Diamond Dust <Ruby...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:5109-3B5...@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> They deleted my entire post and replaced it with something else. I was
> asking a serious question. They can't handle questions apparently so
> they just snipped my post.
Now, now, you are in a situation of "cry wolf" as they get soo many people coming in
acting as YEC's, I dont blame them for doing that actually. You see, the bible says to
guard your heart, and that is excactly what they are doing. If you really want answers,
then my suggestion would be to search out other YEC's away from that forum. Im very sorry,
but I cannot tell if you are a troll or not. I have a friend who is an expert when it
comes to zoology and related matters, he is a YEC but he is not acossiated with the ICR's,
and I can tell you now, that he can give you EVERY answer you are after. He is an
ex-evolutionist, who went to university to show YECs and christians that evolution was a
fact, and through it he realised that evolution and the bible and christianity are NOT
compatible. If you are sincerely looking for the truth, I can tell him about you wanting
to discuss these matters.
petera
Dave Oldridge <dold...@sprint.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns90E398CC2DBF1...@130.133.1.4...
> Ruby...@webtv.net (Diamond Dust) wrote in news:5109-3B566F2E-106@storefull-
> 248.iap.bryant.webtv.net:
>
> > They deleted my entire post and replaced it with something else. I was
> > asking a serious question. They can't handle questions apparently so
> > they just snipped my post. They even deleted my username and all I did
> > was ask the light from stars quesiton.
>
> Of course. They are not in the business of answering the questions of
> skeptics. They are in the business of milking the purses of the faithful.
Dave, you really are stepping on dangerous grounds...get out of that cult you're in.
Derek Stevenson
news:3b572c96$1...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> Diamond Dust <Ruby...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:5109-3B5...@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> > They deleted my entire post and replaced it with something else. I was
> > asking a serious question. They can't handle questions apparently so
> > they just snipped my post.
>
> Now, now, you are in a situation of "cry wolf" as they get soo many people
coming in
> acting as YEC's, I dont blame them for doing that actually. You see, the
bible says to
> guard your heart, and that is excactly what they are doing. If you really
want answers,
> then my suggestion would be to search out other YEC's away from that
forum.
You're the one who recommended that forum as a place to go for answers in
the first place.
> Im very sorry,
> but I cannot tell if you are a troll or not. I have a friend who is an
expert when it
> comes to zoology and related matters, he is a YEC but he is not acossiated
with the ICR's,
> and I can tell you now, that he can give you EVERY answer you are after.
I'm quite certain he can. Most YEC "experts" are usually pretty blinkered
when it comes to recognizing the limits of their knowledge, and are more
than happy to speculate on matters they know sweet fuck-all about.
> He is an
> ex-evolutionist, who went to university to show YECs and christians that
evolution was a
> fact, and through it he realised that evolution and the bible and
christianity are NOT
> compatible.
Uh-huh. Then he should be able to give a reasonably accurate summary of the
"evolutionist" position, even if he doesn't accept it. I don't think I'll
hold my breath waiting for it, though.
Floyd
petera <yode...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
<3b57...@news.iprimus.com.au>...
>
> Dave Oldridge <dold...@sprint.ca> wrote in message
> news:Xns90E398CC2DBF1...@130.133.1.4...
> > Ruby...@webtv.net (Diamond Dust) wrote in
news:5109-3B566F2E-106@storefull-
> > 248.iap.bryant.webtv.net:
> >
> > > They deleted my entire post and replaced it with something else. I
was
> > > asking a serious question. They can't handle questions apparently so
> > > they just snipped my post. They even deleted my username and all I
did
> > > was ask the light from stars quesiton.
> >
> > Of course. They are not in the business of answering the questions of
> > skeptics. They are in the business of milking the purses of the
faithful.
>
> Dave, you really are stepping on dangerous grounds...get out of that cult
you're in.
I'm sure glad I got the heavy duty cables to go with the Mark V.
-Floyd
Tom
"Derek stated..."[...snip...]
>> He is an
>> ex-evolutionist, who went to university to show YECs and christians that
>evolution was a
>> fact, and through it he realised that evolution and the bible and
>christianity are NOT
>> compatible.
>
>Uh-huh. Then he should be able to give a reasonably accurate summary of the
>"evolutionist" position, even if he doesn't accept it. I don't think I'll
>hold my breath waiting for it, though.
How many people would "[go] to university to show YECs and
christians that evolution was a fact"? That seems an odd reason
to spend a lot of money and time and work.
But, anyway, this reminds me of the story told in one of PJ's
books, about the religious chap, the guy who wanted to be a minister,
and went away to college, only to have college destroy his faith.
From both these stories, it might, at first glance, seem that
higher education is a very ambiguous thing to seek. But, on
reflection, we realize that in any case, the results are a good
subject for a sermon.
Tom
John Bode
Wow. Just out of curiosity, can you reproduce your original question
and what they replaced it with here? Or provide URLs?
If you can't or just don't want to, that's fine, I'm just interested
in seeing what prompted such an action.
syvanen
>
> Dave Oldridge <dold...@sprint.ca> wrote in message
> news:Xns90E398CC2DBF1...@130.133.1.4...
> > Ruby...@webtv.net (Diamond Dust) wrote in
news:5109-3B566F2E-106@storefull-
> > skeptics. They are in the business of milking the purses of the
faithful.
>
> Dave, you really are stepping on dangerous grounds...get out of that cult
you're in.
This is new to me. What cult are your referring to?
Mike Syvanen
steven
> ex-evolutionist, who went to university to show YECs and christians that evolution was a
> fact, and through it he realised that evolution and the bible and christianity are NOT
> compatible.
so basically, he went in with pre-concieved notions and beliefs. Found
that his beliefs were incompatible with evidence and science,
therefore rejected the evidence and science.
Hmm a common path for YECs.
Gen2Rev
Why don't you encourage him to post here? I'd love to hear what he has
to say.
Mark VandeWettering
>
> Diamond Dust <Ruby...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:5109-3B5...@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
>> They deleted my entire post and replaced it with something else. I was
>> asking a serious question. They can't handle questions apparently so
>> they just snipped my post.
>
> Now, now, you are in a situation of "cry wolf" as they get soo many
> people coming in acting as YEC's,
Interestingly enough, I went back to the ICR board to cut and paste
their "Disclaimer".
On June 26, this disclaimer read:
ICR's discussion forum is primarily intended for young
earth creationists to discuss matters, ask questions, find
people with similar interests, etc. ICR welcomes others
with serious questions that are asked in good faith. This
is not a debate forum. Please go to Yahoo and use their
advanced search function, and you can find plenty of places
to debate. By registering, you agree that you are either
a young earth creationist or someone with a serious question.
Now, their disclaimer reads:
ICR's discussion forum is intended for young earth creationists
to discuss matters, ask questions, find people with similar
interests, etc. This is not a debate forum. Please go to
Yahoo and use their advanced search function, and you can
find plenty of places to debate. By registering, you agree
that you are a young earth creationist.
Apparently others with serious questions that are asked in good faith
are no longer of interest to the ICR.
> I dont blame them for doing that
> actually. You see, the bible says to guard your heart, and that is
> excactly what they are doing.
I interpret it more as "limiting debate so that we don't appear as stupid
as we really are."
> If you really want answers, then my
> suggestion would be to search out other YEC's away from that forum.
By all means, search out all the YECs that you can find. Get them to
explain stuff to you. Ask them all the sincere questions that you are
not allowed to express in the ICR's forums.
> Im very sorry, but I cannot tell if you are a troll or not.
What does it matter whether she is or not? Do creationists have an
answer for the apparent vastness of the universe or not? If someone calls
the creationist `theory' absurd, does that make them less sincere? Less
correct?
Yes, atheists can be abusive. That doesn't mean that you can just discount
their questions as if they were not reasonable.
> I have
> a friend who is an expert when it comes to zoology and related
> matters, he is a YEC but he is not acossiated with the ICR's, and
> I can tell you now, that he can give you EVERY answer you are after.
More accurately, he can provide whatever answers _you_ are after. You
aren't looking very hard.
> He is an ex-evolutionist, who went to university to show YECs and
> christians that evolution was a fact, and through it he realised
> that evolution and the bible and christianity are NOT compatible.
Uh huh. Nice parable.
> If you are sincerely looking for the truth, I can tell him about
> you wanting to discuss these matters.
I'm not sure why her sincerity matters at all. Her questions are good
ones. Do YECs have an answer or don't they?
> They even deleted my username and all I did
>> was ask the light from stars quesiton.
Mark
Robert Baty
>
> Of course. They are not in the business of answering the questions of
> skeptics. They are in the business of milking the purses of the faithful.
#################
I think it is the case that you can go to a public service kinda place
at http://www.guidestar.org and check the non-profit information filed
by non-profit organizations.
As I recall, in the latest information posted, the ICR made a profit
of about $1,000,000.00 on $5,000,000.00 of receipts and had about
$5,000,000.00 in assets.
Looks like they got plenty of milk!
Robert
ReidRover
Darn i need to get into the creation Science industry...anyone know a good
cheap Diploma mill for my degree?
Jon Fleming
Maybe Patriot University, Kent Hovind's alma mater, is still around?
<http://www.geocities.com/odonate/patriot.htm>
--
Change "nospam" to "group" to email
Alturalan
> Now, now, you are in a situation of "cry wolf" as they get soo many people
>coming in
>> acting as YEC's, I dont blame them for doing that actually. You see, the
>bible says to
>> guard your heart, and that is excactly what they are doing.
In other words, ICR can do no wrong because they're on GOD's side and doing
GOD's work? If a pro-evolutionist site dissed someone who asked a creationist
question in the same way, the fundies would be spitting and screaming at
pro-evolutionists for doing what ICR does and some flunky apologizes for.
K-Man
Alturalan
>reid...@aol.com (ReidRover) ?says:
>Darn i need to get into the creation Science industry...anyone know a good
>cheap Diploma mill for my degree?
You could probably bootleg your own. Just make up the name of the school, e.g.,
Igno-Rant Bible Brainrot warping Center (Inc)
-- K-Man
Michael Painter
"ReidRover" <reid...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010719200047...@ng-fc1.aol.com...
> >
> >
> >dold...@sprint.ca (Dave Oldridge) wrote in message news:
> >>
> >> Of course. They are not in the business of answering the questions of
> >> skeptics. They are in the business of milking the purses of the
faithful.
> >
> >#################
> >
> >
>
good
> cheap Diploma mill for my degree?
U. of E. is not a diploma mill. Do the work and turn in your papers
promptly and you can gain degree(s) you will be proud of.
I'm the head of the PE and karlmath departments.
Submit your current academic credentials DIRECTLY TO ME hand written on the
usual forms ($20.00 bills) and we'll get you started.
Note undegrads are required to submit all work on $5.00 bills. Masters
canadates use $20.00 and PhD use $50.00.
Degrees in PE have the same requirement plus getting a letter in a varsity
sport. Currently E, P, J, and D are available from the religion department.
>
Michael Painter
"Alturalan" <altu...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010719224955...@ng-fr1.aol.com...
The christian children's network add just pointed out that 30,0000 children
die a day. About 20 a minute. God sure loves the little children doesn't it.
Dave Oldridge
news:3b57...@news.iprimus.com.au:
>
> Dave Oldridge <dold...@sprint.ca> wrote in message
> news:Xns90E398CC2DBF1...@130.133.1.4...
>> Ruby...@webtv.net (Diamond Dust) wrote in
>> news:5109-3B566F2E-106@storefull- 248.iap.bryant.webtv.net:
>>
>> > They deleted my entire post and replaced it with something else. I was
>> > asking a serious question. They can't handle questions apparently so
>> > they just snipped my post. They even deleted my username and all I did
>> > was ask the light from stars quesiton.
>>
>> Of course. They are not in the business of answering the questions of
>> skeptics. They are in the business of milking the purses of the
>> faithful.
>
> Dave, you really are stepping on dangerous grounds...get out of that cult
> you're in.
I would suggest you take a long look in the mirror, sir. You are defending
heretics and blasphemers.
ReidRover
Ill go for the $50 PhD..if i throw inanother $20 can you get me a Nobel
prize(like thingy)?
Diamond Dust
Thanks for running the experiment. I can't say I am especially
surprised.
I say:
No problem. :)
Diamond Dust
Now, now, you are in a situation of "cry wolf" as they get soo many
people coming in acting as YEC's, I dont blame them for doing that
actually.
I say:
You were the one who suggested I go over there and ask my question in
the first place! So now that I come back and say what happened I'm
crying wolf?
yode...@hotmail.com (petera) said:
You see, the bible says to guard your heart, and that is excactly what
they are doing.
I say:
And they're guarding their brains pretty well too. From everything that
contradicts what they want to believe.
yode...@hotmail.com (petera) said:
If you really want answers, then my suggestion would be to search out
other YEC's away from that forum.
I say:
Well now you tell me...
yode...@hotmail.com (petera) said:
Im very sorry, but I cannot tell if you are a troll or not.
I say:
Let me get this straight. I ask a question, they delete me. Where does
the trolling fit in there? Was I looking for responses? Yes... that's
generally the function of questions. I didn't know that the response
would be quite that severe because according to you it was ok to ask
questions there.
yode...@hotmail.com (petera) said:
I have a friend who is an expert when it comes to zoology and related
matters, he is a YEC but he is not acossiated with the ICR's, and I can
tell you now, that he can give you EVERY answer you are after. He is an
ex-evolutionist, who went to university to show YECs and christians that
evolution was a fact, and through it he realised that evolution and the
bible and christianity are NOT compatible. If you are sincerely looking
for the truth, I can tell him about you wanting to discuss these
matters.
I say:
Ok you have him e-mail me and I'll see if he can say stuff that makes
sense.
Diamond Dust
>your original question and what they replaced
>it with here? Or provide URLs?
I asked them why if stars were only 6000 light years away, that light
from more distant stars was here. I also asked if they could give any
answers to this from real science (not just creationists)
Someoene got angry at this and said I was "showing my true colors" by
stating that creationists were not scientists.
I also in another board of their's asked the same question I posted in
the "Is Hovind Stupid" thread, but I titled that one "Hovind vs. Ross"
They replaced my post with a few paragraphs saying how Hovind won
instead of what I actually said.
To get the actual things from the boards I'd have to sign up again and I
don't feel like doing that.
Eros
"Diamond Dust" <Ruby...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:5109-3B5...@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> asking a serious question. They can't handle questions apparently so
> they just snipped my post. They even deleted my username and all I did
> was ask the light from stars quesiton.
This is exactly what will happen in our science classes if we let them have
their way!!
"They killed critical thought"....
"The bastards!!"
--
EROS.
"The conclusion that creation science has no scientific merit or educational
value as science has legal significance in light of the Court's previous
conclusion that creation science has, as one major effect, the advancement
of religion.... Since creation science is not science, the conclusion is
inescapable that the only real effect of Act 590 is the advancement of
religion."
[Judge William R. Overton, "The Arkansas Decision: Memorandum Opinion in
Rev. Bill McLean et al v. The Arkansas Board of Education et al (January 5,
1982)" William R. Overton, U.S. District Court, Eastern District of
Arkansas, Western Division.]
Eros
>
> Diamond Dust <Ruby...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:5109-3B5...@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> > They deleted my entire post and replaced it with something else. I was
> > asking a serious question. They can't handle questions apparently so
> > they just snipped my post.
[snip]
> I have a friend who is an expert when it
> comes to zoology and related matters, he is a YEC but he is not acossiated
with the ICR's,
The ICR's what??? Jeez, I hate the inappropriate use of apostrophes! Do you
know what possessive case is?
> and I can tell you now, that he can give you EVERY answer you are after.
Why would an expert in zoology (and related matters) have EVERY answer I was
after unless he thought he knew them all already?
> He is an ex-evolutionist, who went to university to show YECs and
> christians that evolution was a fact
Strange, most people go to university to learn.
>If you are sincerely looking for the truth, I can tell him about you
wanting
> to discuss these matters.
Please ask him to post here and explain the evidence he has which DIRECTLY
supports the religious notion of Divine Creation.
> > They even deleted my username and all I did
> > was ask the light from stars quesiton.
> >
Intellectual censorship is just the thin edge of the wedge! Wait till they
start making the laws!!
--
EROS.
"...in matters of faith, inconvenient evidence is always suppressed while
contradictions go unnoticed."
[Gore Vidal]
Beowulf
>
> They deleted my entire post and replaced it with something else. I was
> asking a serious question. They can't handle questions apparently so
> was ask the light from stars quesiton.
Finding this just too bizarre to believe myself (sorry, personal
incredulity) I registered at the ICR forums as Beowulf.
I posted the following question under the Astronomy | Starlight & Time
forum:
--- Deep Space Objects...
Beowulf - 7:37 am on July 20, 2001
Could someone tell me how we can see objects millions of light-years
away if the universe were created less than 10,000 years ago.
----------
http://www.talkorigins.org
An hour later this is what appeared. They didn't even bother deleting
it, they just completely changed the text (and even my sig)!!! These
goddamned motherfucking pieces of shit. That is beyond low. Are we
sure that this site isn't an elaborate hoax to discredit the ICR?
- Astronomy
-- Starlight & Time
--- Deep Space Objects...
------------------------------------------------------------------
Beowulf - 7:37 am on July 20, 2001
Has anybody checked out Dr. Humphrey's latest article here? It is
about the last seven years of starlight and time. It has related
links on Russ and all the debates from AIG's tech journal. It is
pretty awesome. He even has a video called Starlight and Time
as well.
----------
http://www.trueorigin.org
Edited by: Beowulf at 8:24 am on July 20, 2001
--
EAC Co-director of The Manpanzee Project(tm)
Atheist #1942
tos...@aol.com ab...@aol.com ab...@yahoo.com ab...@hotmail.com
ab...@msn.com ab...@sprint.com ab...@earthlink.com u...@ftc.gov
Michael Painter
> >
> > > >
> >>
> >> Darn i need to get into the creation Science industry...anyone know a
> >good
> >> cheap Diploma mill for my degree?
> >
> > U. of E. is not a diploma mill. Do the work and turn in your papers
> >promptly and you can gain degree(s) you will be proud of.
> >I'm the head of the PE and karlmath departments.
> >Submit your current academic credentials DIRECTLY TO ME hand written on
the
> >usual forms ($20.00 bills) and we'll get you started.
> >Note undegrads are required to submit all work on $5.00 bills. Masters
> >canadates use $20.00 and PhD use $50.00.
> >Degrees in PE have the same requirement plus getting a letter in a
varsity
> >sport. Currently E, P, J, and D are available from the religion
department.
> >>
> >
> >
>
> Ill go for the $50 PhD..if i throw inanother $20 can you get me a Nobel
> prize(like thingy)?
There's been a slight misunderstanding. Note I did not say the PhD was
$50.00. I said all course work must be turned in on $50.00 bills. Most
professors, even in the math department, require some rather leanthy written
work and all problems must be spelled out. Symbols are not allowed.
E.G. Five times five equal twenty-five {period}
The upside is that they quickly learn to grade the work themselves.
Sverker Johansson
Nobels have to be applied for on Swedish currency, which I can
supply at a highly favourable exchange rate. Just send
me a letter on a U.S. $100-bill, and I'll send you the
100-kronor-bill that you need.
--
Best regards, HLK, Physics
Sverker Johansson U of Jonkoping
----------------------------------------------
Definitions:
Micro-evolution: evolution for which the evidence is so
overwhelming that even the ICR can't deny it.
Macro-evolution: evolution which is only proven beyond
reasonable doubt, not beyond unreasonable doubt.
petera
> yode...@hotmail.com (petera) said:
> Now, now, you are in a situation of "cry wolf" as they get soo many
> people coming in acting as YEC's, I dont blame them for doing that
> actually.
>
> I say:
> You were the one who suggested I go over there and ask my question in
> the first place!
That's right
So now that I come back and say what happened I'm
> crying wolf?
No.....you are not crying wolf.....you are in a cry-wolf situation. All I can say is, if
you believe in God and Jesus, seek Him out and ask Him, in prayer for help in what the
truth is.
Ken Cope
>
>
>Diamond Dust <Ruby...@webtv.net> wrote in message
>news:15680-3B5...@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
>> yode...@hotmail.com (petera) said:
>> Now, now, you are in a situation of "cry wolf" as they get soo many
>> people coming in acting as YEC's, I dont blame them for doing that
>> actually.
>>
>> I say:
>> You were the one who suggested I go over there and ask my question in
>> the first place!
>
>That's right
>
>So now that I come back and say what happened I'm
>> crying wolf?
>
>No.....you are not crying wolf.....you are in a cry-wolf situation. All I can
>say is, if
>you believe in God and Jesus, seek Him out and ask Him, in prayer for help in
>what the
>truth is.
And if the morons at the ICR sought Him out and asked Him in prayer for help
in what to do for somebody who asked a real live human being for help in what
the truth is, and He told them to do what was done with Diamond Dust's, and
now Beowulf's questions, then He is an unethical lying piece of shit, which
is probably what petera finds so attractive. Too bad for petera that belief
isn't a very good god generator, except in the presence of strong magical
fields.
Ken Cox
> Diamond Dust <Ruby...@webtv.net> wrote:
> > So now that I come back and say what happened I'm
> > crying wolf?
> No.....you are not crying wolf.....you are in a cry-wolf situation.
Could you explain what you mean by a cry-wolf situation?
Your definition needs to fit the following scenario:
DD: I need help with this question.
Petera: Try the ICR.
DD: (after doing so) They kicked me off, after changing
the contents of my posts to make it look like I said
something I did not.
Petera: You are in a cry-wolf situation.
--
Ken Cox k...@research.bell-labs.com
Morgoth's Cat
They are just like the holocaust deniers...
Best Regards,
Dave
--
**************************************************************
* Supernovae, Supernova Remnants and Young-Earth Creationism *
* http://www.valinor.freeserve.co.uk/supernova.html *
**************************************************************
JM
> >Wow. Just out of curiosity, can you reproduce
> >your original question and what they replaced
> >it with here? Or provide URLs?
>
> I asked them why if stars were only 6000 light years away,
that light
> from more distant stars was here. I also asked if they could
give any
> answers to this from real science (not just creationists)
>
> Someoene got angry at this and said I was "showing my true
colors" by
> stating that creationists were not scientists.
Wendy. Does this look like what was posted?
Check the time stamps in txt below from ICR board.
Post #1 by Slawwell
------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Quote: DiamondDust ( 6:29 am on July 18, 2001 )
FACT: There are stars that are more than 6000 light years away
------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Fact??? Based on what? Parallax trig? Give me a break!
------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Prove by a real scientific source (not just a creationist) that
light speed can or has changed. Give a citation for it. And is
there more than one?
------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
You have shown your true colors by saying that creationists are
not "real scientific" sources.
------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Is there anything you can give me that is not just a quote, but a
real reference to research in this area, maybe an actual
documentation of studies in this area, and the duplication
thereof?
----------
Sometimes it's painful to accept the truth. That does not make the
truth false.
------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Check the following articles:
- Houston Chronicle - Feb. 18, 1999 - Light was slowed to 38 MPH
by physicists at Harvard.
- Dallas Morning News - Feb. 28, 2000 - Light was slowed to 1 MPH.
- New Scientist - July 24, 1999 & Science News - June 9, 1984 -
Effects of gravity on light.
- New York Times - May 30, 2000 - Researchers at Princeton able to
speed light up to 300 times its normal velocity.
- "The speed of light was ten billion times faster at time zero!"
Dr. V.S. Troitskii, Cosmologist at the Radio-physical Research
Institute in Gorky.
- "Physical Constants and the Evolution of the Universe"
Astrophysics and Space Science , Vol. 139, No. 2, December 1987 pp
389-411.
- "A shocking possibility is that the speed of light might change
in time during the life of the universe." Dr. Joao Magueijo of
Imperial College London 12-24-2000
Edited by: slawwell at 6:45 am on July 18, 2001
------------------------------------------------
Post #2
DiamondDust
Newbie
Posts: 2
6:29 am on July 18, 2001
There are stars that are more than 6000 light years away
Evolutionists are ignorant of the fact that most YEC don't believe
the speed of light theory by Setterfeild. They examined it in the
light of the evidence, and it didn't hold up. This is just one
more example of how YEC do adjust or discard theory's in light of
the evidence.
DD
Edited by: DiamondDust at 6:50 am on July 18, 2001
---
And this is what petera calls guarding your heart?
jim
Ferrous Patella
Michael Painter says...
>
[...]
>Currently E, P, J, and D are available from the religion department.
[...]
I thought the religion letters were C, J, O and P, at least on dogtags.
--
Ferrous Patella
In honor of his posting break, this post contains nothing about Peter Nyikos.
Generic454381810
Michael Painter
"Sverker Johansson" <l...@hlk.no.hj.spam.se> wrote in message
news:3B585F4B...@hlk.no.hj.spam.se...
Makes sense to me. One of the advantages of a degree in karlmath is that you
will be able to prove it is an equal exchange.
Ernie DiMicco, Jr.
news:20010719200047...@ng-fc1.aol.com...
> >As I recall, in the latest information posted, the ICR made a profit
> >of about $1,000,000.00 on $5,000,000.00 of receipts and had about
> >$5,000,000.00 in assets.
> >
> >Looks like they got plenty of milk!
> Darn i need to get into the creation Science industry...anyone know a good
> cheap Diploma mill for my degree?
Hey, I gotta pretty decent laser printer... only $20 for a degree... what a deal
:) How's it sound? :)
The "Ernie's Garage of Biological Science" school.
ReidRover
I may be a wee bit cynical , but im kind of surprised the YEC "science"
community hasnt come up with a prize and named it Nobil or Nobele..so they
can confuse the faithful more.
Gen2Rev
>
> Diamond Dust <Ruby...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:15680-3B5...@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> > yode...@hotmail.com (petera) said:
> > Now, now, you are in a situation of "cry wolf" as they get soo many
> > people coming in acting as YEC's, I dont blame them for doing that
> > actually.
> >
> > I say:
> > You were the one who suggested I go over there and ask my question in
> > the first place!
>
> That's right
>
> So now that I come back and say what happened I'm
> > crying wolf?
>
> No.....you are not crying wolf.....you are in a cry-wolf situation. All I can say is, if
> you believe in God and Jesus, seek Him out and ask Him, in prayer for help in what the
> truth is.
Or you could examine his creation using the mind that God gave you. So
far, I'd say that you're doing a bang-up job.
Adam Marczyk
>
> Diamond Dust <Ruby...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:15680-3B5...@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> > yode...@hotmail.com (petera) said:
> > Now, now, you are in a situation of "cry wolf" as they get soo many
> > people coming in acting as YEC's, I dont blame them for doing that
> > actually.
> >
> > I say:
> > You were the one who suggested I go over there and ask my question in
> > the first place!
>
> That's right
>
> So now that I come back and say what happened I'm
> > crying wolf?
>
> No.....you are not crying wolf.....you are in a cry-wolf situation. All I
can say is, if
> you believe in God and Jesus, seek Him out and ask Him, in prayer for help
in what the
> truth is.
This may come as a surprise to you, but whatever the other uses of prayer
are, it has performed less than stunningly as a source of scientific truth
throughout the ages. Prayer is how the Hebrews got their model of a flat
earth covered by a solid dome of a sky; prayer is how the medieval Church
decided that the sun orbits the earth and not vice versa; prayer is how
people learned that sickness was caused by demons and not microorganisms.
And now prayer is telling people that life was created and did not evolve,
when the evidence clearly points in the opposite direction. Perhaps we
should stop trying to use prayer for a purpose it was obviously never
intended for, and instead use the brain given to us by God, or evolution, or
both, to figure things out for ourselves.
> > yode...@hotmail.com (petera) said:
> > You see, the bible says to guard your heart, and that is excactly what
> > they are doing.
> >
> > I say:
> > And they're guarding their brains pretty well too. From everything that
> > contradicts what they want to believe.
> >
> > yode...@hotmail.com (petera) said:
> > If you really want answers, then my suggestion would be to search out
> > other YEC's away from that forum.
> >
> > I say:
> > Well now you tell me...
> >
> > yode...@hotmail.com (petera) said:
> > Im very sorry, but I cannot tell if you are a troll or not.
> >
> > I say:
> > Let me get this straight. I ask a question, they delete me. Where does
> > the trolling fit in there? Was I looking for responses? Yes... that's
> > generally the function of questions. I didn't know that the response
> > would be quite that severe because according to you it was ok to ask
> > questions there.
> >
> > yode...@hotmail.com (petera) said:
> > I have a friend who is an expert when it comes to zoology and related
> > matters, he is a YEC but he is not acossiated with the ICR's, and I can
> > tell you now, that he can give you EVERY answer you are after.
Uh-huh. I've heard this before. "All these other creationists have ignored
you or given unsatisfactory or illogical answers, but I have a friend who
really knows this stuff, and _this_ time he'll set you straight. Really." In
fact, I've heard it quite a few times. Each time it failed to pan out; I got
the same old denial, obfuscation and tricks of rhetoric. I think the
creationist who really knows what he's talking about is like the pot of gold
at the end of the rainbow.
> He is an
> > ex-evolutionist, who went to university to show YECs and christians that
> > evolution was a fact, and through it he realised that evolution and the
> > bible and christianity are NOT compatible.
An easy claim for him to make, a harder one to back up. I used to be a
fundamentalist born-again Christian who deconverted and accepted evolution
after realizing creationism was completely and utterly wrong and a miserable
failure both as science and theology. Sounds great, doesn't it, but just try
to prove I'm lying.
> If you are sincerely looking
> > for the truth,
And, of course, the obligatory escape hatch. If he fails to convince you,
then you weren't "sincerely" looking for the truth.
> I can tell him about you wanting to discuss these
> > matters.
> >
> > I say:
> > Ok you have him e-mail me and I'll see if he can say stuff that makes
> > sense.
Why not hold the discussion here, on the newsgroup?
--
And I want to conquer the world,
give all the idiots a brand new religion,
put an end to poverty, uncleanliness and toil,
promote equality in all of my decisions...
--Bad Religion, "I Want to Conquer the World"
To send e-mail, change "excite" to "hotmail"
Adam Marczyk
news:3B584FF4...@attglobal.net...
I can't believe this. I'm literally shaking my head in disbelief. This is
beyond dishonest. Okay. We _need_ a FAQ on this. I volunteer to write it.
Michael Painter
"Adam Marczyk" <ebon...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:9jauau$3m5m$1...@node21.cwnet.roc.gblx.net...
I
> can say is, if
> > you believe in God and Jesus, seek Him out and ask Him, in prayer for
help
> in what the
> > truth is.
30,000 kids die a day according to the christian children's foundation.
They ask for money.
They know the value of prayer.
They choose to prey.
O. C. Swimmer
Diamond Dust
They deleted my entire post and replaced it with something else. I was
asking a serious question. They can't handle questions apparently so
they just snipped my post. They even deleted my username and all I did
was ask the light from stars quesiton.
To which skr...@attglobal.net (Beowulf) replied:
Finding this just too bizarre to believe myself (sorry, personal
incredulity) I registered at the ICR forums as Beowulf.
I say:
Had to see for yourself did you? Well that's good. :)
skr...@attglobal.net (Beowulf) said:
I posted the following question under the Astronomy | Starlight & Time
forum:
--- Deep Space Objects...
Beowulf - 7:37 am on July 20, 2001
Could someone tell me how we can see objects millions of light-years
away if the universe were created less than 10,000 years ago.
----------
http://www.talkorigins.org
An hour later this is what appeared. They didn't even bother deleting
it, they just completely changed the text (and even my sig)!!! These
goddamned motherfucking pieces of shit. That is beyond low. Are we sure
that this site isn't an elaborate hoax to discredit the ICR?
- Astronomy
-- Starlight & Time
--- Deep Space Objects...
----------------------------------------------
Beowulf - 7:37 am on July 20, 2001
Has anybody checked out Dr. Humphrey's latest article here? It is about
the last seven years of starlight and time. It has related links on Russ
and all the debates from AIG's tech journal. It is pretty awesome. He
even has a video called Starlight and Time as well.
----------
http://www.trueorigin.org
Edited by: Beowulf at 8:24 am on July 20, 2001
--
EAC Co-director of The Manpanzee Project(tm) Atheist #1942
tos...@aol.com ab...@aol.com ab...@yahoo.com ab...@hotmail.com
ab...@msn.com ab...@sprint.com ab...@earthlink.com u...@ftc.gov
I say:
I'm glad someone else tried it too, so no one would think I was just
making it up. It's so sad that these people have to resort to such
tactics!!!
Diamond Dust
No.....you are not crying wolf.....you are in a cry-wolf situation.
I say:
Could you explain this?
yode...@hotmail.com (petera) said:
All I can say is, if you believe in God and Jesus, seek Him out and ask
Him, in prayer for help in what the truth is.
I say:
Done. Now what?
I think the thing you don't understand is that in order for him to help
me know the truth He'd have to
A. Directly appear to me or send an Angel to me to tell me. (which I
don't think is impossible, just improbable)
or this, which is more likely:
B. Work through people to help me understand.
In order for B to happen, then I have to be willing to listen to people
who talk about this issue. Which is what I'm doing now, as well as
asking questions.
Wendy
Diamond Dust
quoted in the other person's post as you saw. And what was posted under
my name was what they put there, not what I said.
Re: I give up on ICR
Group: talk.origins Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001, 3:05pm (CDT+1) From:
jddom...@hotmail.com (JM)
Diamond Dust <Ruby...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:15681-3B...@storefull-242.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
Wow. Just out of curiosity, can you reproduce your original question and
what they replaced it with here? Or provide URLs?
I asked them why if stars were only 6000 light years away, that light
from more distant stars was here. I also asked if they could give any
answers to this from real science (not just creationists)
Someoene got angry at this and said I was "showing my true colors" by
stating that creationists were not scientists.
Wendy. Does this look like what was posted? Check the time stamps in txt
below from ICR board.
Post #1 by Slawwell
----------------------------------------------
----------
Quote: DiamondDust ( 6:29 am on July 18, 2001 )
FACT: There are stars that are more than 6000 light years away
----------------------------------------------
----------
Fact??? Based on what? Parallax trig? Give me a break!
----------------------------------------------
----------
Prove by a real scientific source (not just a creationist) that light
speed can or has changed. Give a citation for it. And is there more than
one?
----------------------------------------------
----------
You have shown your true colors by saying that creationists are not
"real scientific" sources.
----------------------------------------------
----------
Is there anything you can give me that is not just a quote, but a real
reference to research in this area, maybe an actual documentation of
studies in this area, and the duplication thereof?
----------
Sometimes it's painful to accept the truth. That does not make the truth
false.
----------------------------------------------
----------
Check the following articles:
- Houston Chronicle - Feb. 18, 1999 - Light was slowed to 38 MPH by
physicists at Harvard.
- Dallas Morning News - Feb. 28, 2000 - Light was slowed to 1 MPH.
- New Scientist - July 24, 1999 & Science News - June 9, 1984 - Effects
of gravity on light.
- New York Times - May 30, 2000 - Researchers at Princeton able to speed
light up to 300 times its normal velocity.
- "The speed of light was ten billion times faster at time zero!" Dr.
V.S. Troitskii, Cosmologist at the Radio-physical Research Institute in
Gorky.
- "Physical Constants and the Evolution of the Universe" Astrophysics
and Space Science , Vol. 139, No. 2, December 1987 pp 389-411.
- "A shocking possibility is that the speed of light might change in
time during the life of the universe." Dr. Joao Magueijo of Imperial
College London 12-24-2000
Edited by: slawwell at 6:45 am on July 18, 2001
----------------------------------------------
Louann Miller
>
>Dave Oldridge <dold...@sprint.ca> wrote in message
>news:Xns90E398CC2DBF1...@130.133.1.4...
>> Ruby...@webtv.net (Diamond Dust) wrote in news:5109-3B566F2E-106@storefull-
>> 248.iap.bryant.webtv.net:
>>
>> > They deleted my entire post and replaced it with something else. I was
>> > asking a serious question. They can't handle questions apparently so
>> > they just snipped my post. They even deleted my username and all I did
>> > was ask the light from stars quesiton.
>>
>> Of course. They are not in the business of answering the questions of
>> skeptics. They are in the business of milking the purses of the faithful.
>
>Dave, you really are stepping on dangerous grounds...get out of that cult you're in.
Aren't you going to defend ICR's actions? IIRC you were the one who
recommended that Diamond Dust go to them to get her questions about
the scientific soundness of creationism answered.
Louann Miller
>Could you explain what you mean by a cry-wolf situation?
>Your definition needs to fit the following scenario:
>
>DD: I need help with this question.
>Petera: Try the ICR.
>DD: (after doing so) They kicked me off, after changing
> the contents of my posts to make it look like I said
> something I did not.
>Petera: You are in a cry-wolf situation.
Honesty is such a lonely word...
Bob Pease
> I had written:
>
> They deleted my entire post and replaced it with something else. I was
> asking a serious question. They can't handle questions apparently so
> they just snipped my post. They even deleted my username and all I did
> was ask the light from stars quesiton.
>
> To which skr...@attglobal.net (Beowulf) replied:
>
> Finding this just too bizarre to believe myself (sorry, personal
> incredulity) I registered at the ICR forums as Beowulf.
You aren't following their rules.
You may only ask questions from the Approved List.
Unfortunately, this list is not published anywhere.
It's like when I was in High School, I was told not to read books on the
INDEX LIBRORUM PROHIBITORUM
however, It was next to impossible to find a copy of the list.
Pat James
(in message <9jc742$9...@dispatch.concentric.net>):
> It's like when I was in High School, I was told not to read books on the
> INDEX LIBRORUM PROHIBITORUM however, It was next to impossible to find a
> copy of the list.
That's 'cause it's long been clear that the very best way to make sure that
something has a big audience is to try to ban it... but to lack the power to
do more than give it free publicity. How many people would have even _heard_
of _The Satanic Verses_ or Salman Rushdie if ol' Salman hadn't got that death
threat? A list of prohibited books is a list of books that a lot of people
are gonna try to have a look at if only to see what the fuss is about. (btw,
_The Satanic Verses_ stinks. I couldn't get past the first chapter. I have no
idea how on earth anyone stayed awake long enough to find out that it said
naughty things about Mohammed. Who wants a copy? Going cheap.)
--
Scientific creationism: a religious dogma combining massive ignorance with
incredible arrogance.
Creationist: (1) One who follows creationism. (2) A moron. (3) A person
incapable of doing math. (4) A liar. (5) A very gullible true believer.
Adam Marczyk
> yode...@hotmail.com (petera) said:
> No.....you are not crying wolf.....you are in a cry-wolf situation.
>
> I say:
> Could you explain this?
>
> yode...@hotmail.com (petera) said:
> All I can say is, if you believe in God and Jesus, seek Him out and ask
> Him, in prayer for help in what the truth is.
>
> I say:
> Done. Now what?
Obviously you don't understand how this is supposed to work. ;)
> I think the thing you don't understand is that in order for him to help
> me know the truth He'd have to
>
> A. Directly appear to me or send an Angel to me to tell me. (which I
> don't think is impossible, just improbable)
>
> or this, which is more likely:
>
> B. Work through people to help me understand.
>
> In order for B to happen, then I have to be willing to listen to people
> who talk about this issue. Which is what I'm doing now, as well as
> asking questions.
Well said. As I pointed out in another post, whatever its other functions,
prayer and revelation have not worked well as sources of scientific truth.
People have tried that before and the results were a flat earth, a
geocentric solar system, angels nudging Mercury out of its orbit, diseases
caused by demonic possession - and now creationism. Maybe we should stop
using prayer for a purpose it was obviously not intended for and instead try
using those rational, scientific brains we were presumably given for a
purpose.
Michael Painter
"O. C. Swimmer" <cag...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:9jbget$tu$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
> In article <ynQ57.44799$C81.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> "Michael Painter" <m.pa...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >The christian children's network add just pointed out that 30,0000
children
> >die a day. About 20 a minute. God sure loves the little children doesn't
it.
> >
> >
>
> How can you be such an idiot?
I'm an atheist, so the part about a god's love was supposed to be sarcastic.
Does that bother you?
Maybe it's the idea that a loving anything with the power to stop such death
would allow it.
If an able bodied person stood by and watched a child drown in a shallow
pool and did nothing he would be castigated.
The christian god gets prayed to and thanked.
Alistair Davidson
Floyd, could I borrow that cabling by any chance?
--
Lord [INSERT NAME HERE]
Rick's World: http://www.altgeek.org/lord_inh/comic/index.html
Delta
Make it so.
I can't believe this either...
I wonder how common this type of dishonesty is...
Noelie S. Alito
news:01HW.B77F14870...@enews.newsguy.com...
> On Sat, 21 Jul 2001 10:29:07 -0500, Bob Pease wrote
> (in message <9jc742$9...@dispatch.concentric.net>):
>
> > It's like when I was in High School, I was told not to read books on the
> > INDEX LIBRORUM PROHIBITORUM however, It was next to impossible to find a
> > copy of the list.
>
> That's 'cause it's long been clear that the very best way to make sure
that
> something has a big audience is to try to ban it... but to lack the power
to
> do more than give it free publicity. How many people would have even
_heard_
> of _The Satanic Verses_ or Salman Rushdie if ol' Salman hadn't got that
death
> threat? A list of prohibited books is a list of books that a lot of people
> are gonna try to have a look at if only to see what the fuss is about.
(btw,
> _The Satanic Verses_ stinks. I couldn't get past the first chapter. I have
no
> idea how on earth anyone stayed awake long enough to find out that it said
> naughty things about Mohammed. Who wants a copy? Going cheap.)
A local group of parents was trying to get the school board to
take Maya Angelou's _I_Know_Why_the_Caged_Bird_Sings_
off the high school reading options list. I felt compelled to read
the damn book and I thought it stank. (She should stick to poetry.)
That's why "The book they don't want you to know about!" is
a popular marketing slogan.
Noelie
--
"Help! Help! I'm being repressed!" --Dennis, _MP&tHG_
Ron Okimoto
I think that you should write a letter to the ICR and tell them
exactly what happened. There is no excuse for the moderator to alter
posts and be so free wheeling in his censorship. Even the folks at
the ICR have taken out the Pulaxy tracks and other bogus arguments.
Blatant dishonesty, such as this can't even be tolerated by the ICR.
I think that if they are informed about what is happening they will
change this policy. This only makes them look bad when their obvious
goal is to look like they are actually trying to help the poor rubes
that can't manage to figure out anything for themselves.
Even the guys at the ICR should understand that they have put some
sick puppy in a position to do them a lot of damage.
Ron Okimoto
Morgoth's Cat
Adam Marczyk
news:63afe69c.01072...@posting.google.com...
Um, I would bet the ICR people _told_ the moderator to do that. :P
> There is no excuse for the moderator to alter
> posts and be so free wheeling in his censorship. Even the folks at
> the ICR have taken out the Pulaxy tracks and other bogus arguments.
> Blatant dishonesty, such as this can't even be tolerated by the ICR.
> I think that if they are informed about what is happening they will
> change this policy. This only makes them look bad when their obvious
> goal is to look like they are actually trying to help the poor rubes
> that can't manage to figure out anything for themselves.
>
> Even the guys at the ICR should understand that they have put some
> sick puppy in a position to do them a lot of damage.
No kidding, which is why I'm making a FAQ on it. ;)
Generic454381810
>From: reid...@aol.com (ReidRover)
>I may be a wee bit cynical , but im kind of surprised the YEC "science"
>community hasnt come up with a prize and named it Nobil or Nobele..so they
>can confuse the faithful more.
The No-bull prize. Presented by Henry Morris of the ICR
Yog Shoggoth
On 21 Jul 2001 06:04:14 -0400, Ruby...@webtv.net (Diamond Dust)
wrote:
>I had written:
>They deleted my entire post and replaced it with something else. I was
>asking a serious question. They can't handle questions apparently so
>they just snipped my post. They even deleted my username and all I did
>was ask the light from stars quesiton.
>To which skr...@attglobal.net (Beowulf) replied:
>Finding this just too bizarre to believe myself (sorry, personal
>incredulity) I registered at the ICR forums as Beowulf.
<snip>
Just a thought; you were both breaking their rules by posting, weren't
you? Didn't the rules say that by posting you attest that you are a
YEC? Since DD is not willing to commit to that position, and since
beowulf clearly is not a YEC, you were lying to them before they
touched your post. So they were at least technically (if not morally
or intellectually) in the right by changing your posts.
They may not consider that forum a place for debate, and I have to
admit that they should be allowed to do that. Shoe on the other foot:
I doubt if a moderated biological science discussion group would
welcome posts by a guy who came in asking questions designed to try to
convince people of special creation.
Of course, it's intellectually (and in other ways) dishonest for them
to have changed your post, and everyone knows that two wrongs don't
make a right, but you can't say they started the lying.
Like I said, just a thought
Louann Miller
wrote:
>Ron Okimoto <roki...@mail.uark.edu> wrote in message
>> I think that you should write a letter to the ICR and tell them
>> exactly what happened.
>
>Um, I would bet the ICR people _told_ the moderator to do that. :P
I'm afraid I vote with you on this one, in the absence of overwhelming
evidence to the contrary.
Surpressing posts with disturbing questions and the people who ask
them might be construed as "honest" in the narrow sense of being
within the behaviors outlined by their posting rules, although it's
still not honest in the sense of honestly seeking out all information
in an attempt to give questions accurate answers. Surpressing posts in
order to replace them with words in contradiction to what the person
actually wrote is an overt and deliberate lie.
If a publication did such a thing to an identified person (Senator
Smith says "I did not steal" -- news article edits it to "I did ...
steal," admitted Senator Smith) then they would be not only open to a
charge of libel but guilty of it, if the lie cast the lied-about
person in an actionably bad light.
Louann
Adam Marczyk
news:3b59c50c...@news.i-55.com...
Deleting posts that violate their terms of service would have been
understandable (in that we could understand that YECs are afraid of honest
debate). _Changing_ the post to associate the poster with opinions he or she
does not hold is reprehensible and extremely dishonest.
Adam Marczyk
news:4abklt413d2sf8qk3...@4ax.com...
> On 21 Jul 2001 16:31:04 -0400, "Adam Marczyk" <ebon...@excite.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Ron Okimoto <roki...@mail.uark.edu> wrote in message
>
> >> I think that you should write a letter to the ICR and tell them
> >> exactly what happened.
> >
> >Um, I would bet the ICR people _told_ the moderator to do that. :P
>
> I'm afraid I vote with you on this one,
No need to be afraid. It surprises me as much as it surprises you, but even
I'm right sometimes. ;)
> in the absence of overwhelming
> evidence to the contrary.
>
> Surpressing posts with disturbing questions and the people who ask
> them might be construed as "honest" in the narrow sense of being
> within the behaviors outlined by their posting rules, although it's
> still not honest in the sense of honestly seeking out all information
> in an attempt to give questions accurate answers. Surpressing posts in
> order to replace them with words in contradiction to what the person
> actually wrote is an overt and deliberate lie.
>
> If a publication did such a thing to an identified person (Senator
> Smith says "I did not steal" -- news article edits it to "I did ...
> steal," admitted Senator Smith) then they would be not only open to a
> charge of libel but guilty of it, if the lie cast the lied-about
> person in an actionably bad light.
Well said. As far as I'm concerned, if the ICR wants to promote a fact-free
discussion of creationism, they can censor opposing viewpoints and delete
contrary posts all they like. But actually altering what people wrote is
beyond the pale, and I don't care if they warn you they'll do it in their
disclaimer or not.
Boikat
And just where are those paragons of "free", and
presumably "accurate" speech, the Schlafly's?
Dick C.
"Delta" <agno...@not.not.not.not> wrote in <9jchtb$308$1...@tron.sci.fi>:
I have never seen this behavior before. I used to post on a creationist
type discussion board, and my posts were never changed. I doubt that
that kind of behavior would have been allowed by anyone who posted
there. The people that I talked to were definitely creationist, most
of them, but all were friendly, and we had some fun and interesting
discussions. And the moderator only stepped in if people got insulting
or used foul language.
Other boards that I have seen seemed to be about the same, and let you
know just what the limits were. If your post was unacceptable they
would let you know, not just change it.
How disgusting, but could one expect any better of the ICR?
--
Dick #1349
People think that libraries are safe places, but they're not,
they have ideas.
email: dic...@uswest.net
Homepage http://www.users.uswest.net/~dickcr/
Diamond Dust
Of course, it's intellectually (and in other ways) dishonest for them to
have changed your post, and everyone knows that two wrongs don't make a
right, but you can't say they started the lying.
Like I said, just a thought
I say:
I can see where you are coming from on this however, I wouldn't have
gone there in the first place if Petera hadn't suggested it to me as a
place where questions were welcomed. I assumed (wrongly) that he knew
what he was talking about.
Besides, it seems wrong to have discussion forums when no one can ask
such basic questions. What are the forums for? Mutual back patting?
Morgoth's Cat
scribed:
Yes, you'll find that the cretinist definition of "discussion forum"
is "mutual back patting society". No deviation from the party line is
allowed.
A stark warning of what will happen if they (the cretinists) ever get
into a position of power. Shades of Atwood.
Boikat
>
> On 22 Jul 2001 04:39:29 -0400, Ruby...@webtv.net (Diamond Dust)
> scribed:
>
> >y...@i-55.com (Yog Shoggoth) said:
> >Of course, it's intellectually (and in other ways) dishonest for them to
> >have changed your post, and everyone knows that two wrongs don't make a
> >right, but you can't say they started the lying.
> >Like I said, just a thought
> >
> >I say:
> >
> >I can see where you are coming from on this however, I wouldn't have
> >gone there in the first place if Petera hadn't suggested it to me as a
> >place where questions were welcomed. I assumed (wrongly) that he knew
> >what he was talking about.
> >
> >Besides, it seems wrong to have discussion forums when no one can ask
> >such basic questions. What are the forums for? Mutual back patting?
> >
>
> Yes, you'll find that the cretinist definition of "discussion forum"
> is "mutual back patting society". No deviation from the party line is
> allowed.
>
> A stark warning of what will happen if they (the cretinists) ever get
> into a position of power. Shades of Atwood.
Just out of curiosity, unless they have a
statement in a "User Agreement", where it's agreed
that they have the right to edit a post, and some
way of annotating that a post was edited and in
what way, and possibly a mechanism that allows one
to view the original, aren't they treading on thin
ice, legally? Or is it "It's my playpen, and I
can do whatever I want"?
Boikat
Jon Fleming
wrote:
>y...@i-55.com (Yog Shoggoth) said:
>Of course, it's intellectually (and in other ways) dishonest for them to
>have changed your post, and everyone knows that two wrongs don't make a
>right, but you can't say they started the lying.
>Like I said, just a thought
>
>I say:
>
>I can see where you are coming from on this however, I wouldn't have
>gone there in the first place if Petera hadn't suggested it to me as a
>place where questions were welcomed. I assumed (wrongly) that he knew
>what he was talking about.
A few weeks before he directed you to those forums, "sincere
questions" were allowed by the terms of service. They are no longer.
>
>Besides, it seems wrong to have discussion forums when no one can ask
>such basic questions. What are the forums for? Mutual back patting?
Apparently so.
--
Change "nospam" to "group" to email
Morgoth's Cat
scribed:
>On 22 Jul 2001 04:39:29 -0400, Ruby...@webtv.net (Diamond Dust)
>wrote:
>
>>y...@i-55.com (Yog Shoggoth) said:
>>Of course, it's intellectually (and in other ways) dishonest for them to
>>have changed your post, and everyone knows that two wrongs don't make a
>>right, but you can't say they started the lying.
>>Like I said, just a thought
>>
>>I say:
>>
>>I can see where you are coming from on this however, I wouldn't have
>>gone there in the first place if Petera hadn't suggested it to me as a
>>place where questions were welcomed. I assumed (wrongly) that he knew
>>what he was talking about.
>
>A few weeks before he directed you to those forums, "sincere
>questions" were allowed by the terms of service. They are no longer.
>
What have they changed it to now?
Adam Marczyk
news:3B5A4691...@bellsouth.net...
[snip]
> > Well said. As far as I'm concerned, if the ICR wants to promote a
fact-free
> > discussion of creationism, they can censor opposing viewpoints and
delete
> > contrary posts all they like. But actually altering what people wrote is
> > beyond the pale, and I don't care if they warn you they'll do it in
their
> > disclaimer or not.
>
> And just where are those paragons of "free", and
> presumably "accurate" speech, the Schlafly's?
Way up there at the height of Hypocrisy Mountain.
Adam Marczyk
That seems to cover it.
Creationists don't view evolution vs. creationism as a scientific debate,
they view it as a theological one. The ICR's discussion boards are the
equivalent of the church where they can all sing gospel songs and clap their
hands in unison before they go out into the world to do battle with the
unbeliever.
Mark VandeWettering
Yep.
Mark
--
/* __ __ __ ____ __*/float m,a,r,k,v;main(i){for(;r<4;r+=.1){for(a=0;
/*| \/ |\ \ / /\ \ / /*/a<4;a+=.06){k=v=0;for(i=99;--i&&k*k+v*v<4;)m=k*k
/*| |\/| | \ V / \ \/\/ / */-v*v+a-2,v=2*k*v+r-2,k=m;putchar("X =."[i&3]);}
/*|_| |_ark\_/ande\_/\_/ettering <ma...@telescopemaking.org> */puts("");}}
Jon Fleming
Cat) wrote:
>On 22 Jul 2001 09:22:12 -0400, Jon Fleming <jo...@fleming-nospam.com>
>scribed:
>
>>On 22 Jul 2001 04:39:29 -0400, Ruby...@webtv.net (Diamond Dust)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>y...@i-55.com (Yog Shoggoth) said:
>>>Of course, it's intellectually (and in other ways) dishonest for them to
>>>have changed your post, and everyone knows that two wrongs don't make a
>>>right, but you can't say they started the lying.
>>>Like I said, just a thought
>>>
>>>I say:
>>>
>>>I can see where you are coming from on this however, I wouldn't have
>>>gone there in the first place if Petera hadn't suggested it to me as a
>>>place where questions were welcomed. I assumed (wrongly) that he knew
>>>what he was talking about.
>>
>>A few weeks before he directed you to those forums, "sincere
>>questions" were allowed by the terms of service. They are no longer.
>>
>
>What have they changed it to now?
They've removed the "serious questions" phrase. See
<http://groups.google.com/groups?start=10&hl=en&safe=off&th=eaf4b5aa03cd0c5f,53&rnum=16&selm=slrn9leqpe.h1p.markv%40peewee.telescopemaking.org>.
Now "ICR's discussion forum is intended for young earth creationists
to discuss matters, ask questions, find people with similar interests,
etc. This is not a debate forum. Please go to Yahoo and use their
advanced search function, and you can find plenty of places to debate.
By registering, you agree that you are a young earth creationist."
>
>Best Regards,
>Dave
Seth Kroger
Here is some material for the FAQ. The moderator for the ICR boards
happens to hang out at the Internet Infidels' Boards on occasion and
has commented in threads concerning the ICR boards. I challenged him
to defend his actions, posting the examples from Beowolf and Diamond
Dust. This is his response, it speaks for itself.
Posted July 22, 2001 06:46 PM
> quote:
> ====================================================================
> Originally posted by Seth K:
> icr, I wonder then if you don't have time do delete every "ignorant
> evolutionist" why the admins would have to time to misleadingly
> re-write their posts to say things that are the exact opposite of
> their original words said. Why exactly does the ICR do this, and
> how do they defend the questionable practice of puting words in
> other people's mouths
> ====================================================================
>
>i said the forum moderators here don't have time to delete every ignorant
>post by evolutionists. What do I think? I think some trolls and/or willful
>violators are a bunch of cry babys who willfully violate terms of service
>and agree that their posts can be edited. If they don't want their posts
>edited, their username used, etc., then they shouldn't agree to our terms of
>service, and they should stay off the board. I guess you must have sympathy
>for robbers who slip and break their leg when breaking into someone's house
><nonsense as to the real reasons for terms of service, etc. to be imagined
>by any and all soon>
See:
http://www.infidels.org/electronic/forum/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=001039
|======================================================================|
| Seth Kroger "If God made us in His image we |
| skroger(at)slonet.org have certainly returned the |
| http://www.slonet.org/~skroger/ compliment." -Voltaire |
Beowulf
> <Snip>
> I think that you should write a letter to the ICR and tell them
> exactly what happened. There is no excuse for the moderator to
> alter posts and be so free wheeling in his censorship.
That's what I thought, as well. Find below my email exchange with
the ICR on this matter:
Beowulf wrote, using one of the ICR's online feedback form:
>
> subject: Nazi Censorship Tactics
>
> email: beo...@vwmail.net
>
> how_found: another website
>
> feedback: I posted a number of honest questions on the ICR
> discussion forums. None of these questions were off-topic for
> the forum they were posted to or in any way violated the User
> Agreement.
>
> However, within an hour after posting my questions my user account
> had been deleted and the text and sig of my message had been altered
> to completely misrepresent my question.
>
> The administrator of these forums is making use of a fascist tactic
> to disallow true discussion from taking place. Even if my questions
> were objectionable for some reason, the responsible and honest thing
> to do would be to delete the post and email me with how it was in
> violation. I find it telling that the route for dealing with
> dissension on the ICR "discussion" forums is censorship and outright
> lying.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
The ICR replied:
>Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:41:12 -0500
>From: "Live Help" <live...@icrmedia.org>
>To: <beo...@vwmail.net>
>Subject: Re: Nazi Censorship Tactics
> Please see http://www.icr.org/discussion/disclaimer.cgi This
> clearly explains the purpose and rules of the forum. You may
> ask your questions at http://www.icr.org/contact.html Please
> address it ot our PIO. Thank you.
To which Beowulf replied:
>Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 09:03:13 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Beowulf <beo...@vwmail.net>
>To: "Live Help" <live...@icrmedia.org>
>Subject: Re: Nazi Censorship Tactics
>
> I read the disclaimer a second time now. Would you
> care to tell me how the 2 posts made by UserName
> Beowulf this morning are in violation of the User
> Agreement?
>
> Also, nowhere in there did I see mention of the fact
> that "objectionable" posts would have their text
> completely replaced by administrators in an effort to
> utterly misrepresent the original poster's intent
> while making it appear that it was the original poster
> who made the editing changes.
>
> Your admin is acting in an irresponsible and dishonest
> manner, now admit it.
To which the ICR replied:
>Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 11:03:18 -0500
>From: "Live Help" <live...@icrmedia.org> Add To Address Book
>To: <beo...@vwmail.net>
>Subject: Re: Nazi Censorship Tactics
>
> ICR's discussion forum is intended for young earth creationists
>
> You acknowledge that ICR reserves the right to, and will,
> monitor any and all information transmitted or received through
> the site. ICR at its sole discretion and without further notice
> to you, may review, edit, remove or prohibit the transmission or
> receipt of any information which we deem inappropriate or that
> violates any term(s) or condition(s) of this agreement.
To which Beowulf replied:
>Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 09:54:41 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Beowulf <beo...@vwmail.net>
>To: "Live Help" <live...@icrmedia.org>
>Subject: Re: Nazi Censorship Tactics
> --- "Live Help" <live...@icrmedia.org>
> > wrote:
> >ICR's discussion forum is intended for young earth
> >creationists
>
> How do you know I'm not a young earth creationist?
>
> >You acknowledge that ICR reserves the right to, and
> >will, monitor any and all information transmitted or
> >received through the site. ICR at its sole discretion
> >and without further notice to you, may review, edit,
> >remove or prohibit the transmission or receipt of any
> >information which we deem inappropriate or that violates
> >any term(s) or condition(s) of this agreement.
>
> Most normal people read this to mean that offensive words
> such as "shit" or "fuck" will be deleted or perhaps
> inflammatory questions will be re-worded to be less hostile.
>
> My reading of the above paragraph in no way justifies
> changing this:
>
> "Could someone tell me how we can see objects millions
> of light-years away if the universe were created less
> than 10,000 years ago."
>
> to this:
>
> "Has anybody checked out Dr. Humphrey's latest article
> here? It is about the last seven years of starlight and
> time. It has related links on Russ and all the debates
> from AIG's tech journal. It is pretty awesome. He even
> has a video called Starlight and Time as well."
>
> I repeat my accusation:
> Your admin is acting in an irresponsible and dishonest
> manner, now admit it.
I never received a reply to my last message. I figure that:
a) they know they've been caught acting in a completely dishonest
underhanded manner and cannot bring themselves to admit it.
OR
b) the sight of the words shit and fuck in my email caused some sort
of naughty word overload and the person manning "Live Help at
ICR.org" had an aneurysm.
I don't know how any self-respecting person, YEC or otherwise, could
cheerfully associate with an organization that is so obviously in a
constant state of warfare against rational thought and free inquiry,
and which feels JUSTIFIED and UNAPOLOGETIC in using such morally
baseless tactics as have been displayed here to advance their
immoral agenda, get this, even on a stupid forum that is frequented
by a little over a dozen regulars. Hardly any of the forums there
have a single topic in them. If they'll lie and censor to protect
the little things what do you think they're doing when it really
counts?
Before I thought the ICR was manned mainly by sincere, but mistaken
people, due to this incident, however, I now put the ICR in the same
league as those fanatics who blow up abortion clinics or destroy the
monuments of other religions in an effort to "purify" their homeland.
They are an evil organization hell-bent on advancing their agenda
without regard for the truth.
--
EAC Co-director of The Manpanzee Project(tm)
Atheist #1942
Remove the ape to reply.
Beowulf
>
> Sorry, piggybacking:
>
> On 21 Jul 2001 06:04:14 -0400, Ruby...@webtv.net (Diamond Dust)
> wrote:
> >I had written:
> >They deleted my entire post and replaced it with something else. I was
> >asking a serious question. They can't handle questions apparently so
> >they just snipped my post. They even deleted my username and all I did
> >was ask the light from stars quesiton.
> >To which skr...@attglobal.net (Beowulf) replied:
> >Finding this just too bizarre to believe myself (sorry, personal
> >incredulity) I registered at the ICR forums as Beowulf.
>
> <snip>
>
> Just a thought; you were both breaking their rules by posting,
> weren't you? Didn't the rules say that by posting you attest that
> you are a YEC? Since DD is not willing to commit to that position,
> and since beowulf clearly is not a YEC, you were lying to them
> before they touched your post. So they were at least technically
> (if not morally or intellectually) in the right by changing your
> posts.
When I read through the "User Agreement" it was my understanding that
the forum was intended for YECs or people who had honest questions. It
was after my account was deleted and my posts re-worded to reflect a
view that wasn't even tangentially related to my original post that
YECs-only angle was brought up.
At this point one could wonder what's the point of a forum where
there's no discussion?
Besides, I had an honest question. I honestly want to know how
YECs reconcile the fact that we daily see objects that are more
than 10000 light-years away.
> They may not consider that forum a place for debate, and I have to
> admit that they should be allowed to do that. Shoe on the other foot:
> I doubt if a moderated biological science discussion group would
> welcome posts by a guy who came in asking questions designed to
> try to convince people of special creation.
Shoe on the other foot, off-topic posts would be deleted, not
re-worded to make the intruding YEC in your example appear to be an
"evolutionist".
> Of course, it's intellectually (and in other ways) dishonest for
> them to have changed your post, and everyone knows that two wrongs
> don't make a right, but you can't say they started the lying.
Whose lying? At no point did they ask me my position in email or on
the forum. It was my understand that the majority of the users were
YECs, but that those who were willing to not be belligerant could ask
questions also.
Just because something is done in accordance with the rules doesn't
mean it's moral or that those who are outraged by it shouldn't speak
out. I find your apologizing for the ICR to be disgusting.
Ron Okimoto
> Ron Okimoto wrote:
> > <Snip>
> > I think that you should write a letter to the ICR and tell them
> > exactly what happened. There is no excuse for the moderator to
> > alter posts and be so free wheeling in his censorship.
>
> That's what I thought, as well. Find below my email exchange with
> the ICR on this matter:
>
Snip
I agree that your correspondence indicates that the people that are
running their web and computer operations are unreliable and
dishonest. They could be insane or just brainwashed into thinking
that there is nothing wrong with what they are doing.
I still say that you should mail the ICR your correspondence with the
web administration and show them what is going on. Don't email. You
are probably getting responses from the same dishonest jerk that
edited your post. Send hard copy snail mail.
Ron Okimoto
Rupert Goodwins
I don't know. It looks perilously close to libel to me -- you are being
misrepresented by a publisher in such a way as to damage your reputation. I
don't know how the law works in the US for this, but I do know that if I was
being quoted in a creationist publication (as the ICR forum is) in such a way
as to make it seem I was in favour of creationism, I'd take considerable
exception to it.
What if you went to get a job somewhere and this came up?
>Boikat
>
Erik
In the interest of fairness, I decided to take up this topic on the
ICR newsgroup. I also put forth many other questions that arose from
my time on T.O.
All went fine for a few hours as there was a good exchange of ideas.
But then, all of a sudden, I could not post anymore. I don't know what
happened!! Obviously my userid was killed. I am not ahppy. Iamgine,
the ICR dispatched ERIK from their newsgroup.
Well, I gotta say one thing, even if I disagree with some of the T.O.
stands, at least it is a forum where people can talk freely. The ICR
board is populated by pretend scientists who only want to hear their
fellow yes-men.
Erik
Floyd
Alistair Davidson <lord...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in article
<3B59B298...@yahoo.co.uk>...
> "O. C. Swimmer" wrote:
> >
> > In article
<ynQ57.44799$C81.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> > "Michael Painter" <m.pa...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >"Alturalan" <altu...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > >news:20010719224955...@ng-fr1.aol.com...
> > >> >Subject: Re: I give up on ICR
> > >>
> > >> > Now, now, you are in a situation of "cry wolf" as they get soo
many
> > >people
> > >> >coming in
> > >> >> acting as YEC's, I dont blame them for doing that actually. You
see,
> > >the
> > >> >bible says to
> > >> >> guard your heart, and that is excactly what they are doing.
> > >>
> > >> In other words, ICR can do no wrong because they're on GOD's side
and
> > >doing
> > >> GOD's work? If a pro-evolutionist site dissed someone who asked a
> > >creationist
> > >> question in the same way, the fundies would be spitting and
screaming at
> > >> pro-evolutionists for doing what ICR does and some flunky apologizes
for.
> > >>
> > >> K-Man
> > >
> > >The christian children's network add just pointed out that 30,0000
children
> > >die a day. About 20 a minute. God sure loves the little children
doesn't it.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > How can you be such an idiot?
>
> Floyd, could I borrow that cabling by any chance?
>
When you purchased your Mark V Irony Meter, did you request the "I-Pro"
high-irony environment damage prevention upgrade? Make sure that you get
the Incongru-Tron (TM) argon vapor locks for mounting. (I know the
Actinide series brackets look cool, but the feedback from one claim by *d
C*nr*d that we are psuedo-scientists, and BOOM, Seattle's a smoking hole in
the ground.) Cheers;
-Floyd
Adam Marczyk
news:2001072303...@oso.slonet.org...
Cripes. This is FAQ material all right. Thanks. ;)
Adam Marczyk
This is going in the FAQ as well. Thanks.
Adam Marczyk
news:c2563a5e.01072...@posting.google.com...
I must say, Erik, you're being unusually sensible lately. Do you feel all
right? ;)
Louann Miller
>In the interest of fairness, I decided to take up this topic on the
>ICR newsgroup. I also put forth many other questions that arose from
>my time on T.O.
>
>All went fine for a few hours as there was a good exchange of ideas.
>But then, all of a sudden, I could not post anymore. I don't know what
>happened!! Obviously my userid was killed. I am not ahppy. Iamgine,
>the ICR dispatched ERIK from their newsgroup.
>
>Well, I gotta say one thing, even if I disagree with some of the T.O.
>stands, at least it is a forum where people can talk freely. The ICR
>board is populated by pretend scientists who only want to hear their
>fellow yes-men.
>
>Erik
You know, there are moments when I quite like you.
ReidRover
Though i agree totally, the person censoring the ICR board was wrong, i think
using words like Nazi and" fascist tactics", though probably correct..may be
counter productive in getting the issue resolved.
Pip R. Lagenta
wrote:
>> presumably "accurate" speech, the Schlafly's?
>
>Way up there at the height of Hypocrisy Mountain.
Sometimes called Bandini Mountain.
內躬偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,
Pip R. Lagenta Pip R. Lagenta Pip R. Lagenta Pip R. Lagenta
�虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌
-- Pip R. Lagenta
President for Life
International Organization Of People Named Pip R. Lagenta
(If your name is Pip R. Lagenta, ask about our dues!)
Yog Shoggoth
wrote:
Didn't it say that by posting you were agreeing that you were a YEC?
Maybe I misread that part.
>At this point one could wonder what's the point of a forum where
>there's no discussion?
I must admit I had been wondering that myself, but to be fair, they
seem to be discussing things. Whether these things are worthwhile of
discussion is left to the decision of the reader.
>Besides, I had an honest question. I honestly want to know how
>YECs reconcile the fact that we daily see objects that are more
>than 10000 light-years away.
Their TOS does not anywhere say that they are open to honest questions
on that forum, unless those honest questions fit the other conditions
they are imposing. Like it or not, there is no way to force other
people to be rational, fair, or intellectually honest, nor is there a
way to make them avoid hypocrisy.
>> They may not consider that forum a place for debate, and I have to
>> admit that they should be allowed to do that. Shoe on the other foot:
>> I doubt if a moderated biological science discussion group would
>> welcome posts by a guy who came in asking questions designed to
>> try to convince people of special creation.
>Shoe on the other foot, off-topic posts would be deleted, not
>re-worded to make the intruding YEC in your example appear to be an
>"evolutionist".
Very good point.
>> Of course, it's intellectually (and in other ways) dishonest for
>> them to have changed your post, and everyone knows that two wrongs
>> don't make a right, but you can't say they started the lying.
>Whose lying? At no point did they ask me my position in email or on
>the forum. It was my understand that the majority of the users were
>YECs, but that those who were willing to not be belligerant could ask
>questions also.
Like I said above, I was under the impression that their TOS said that
by posting, you were agreeing you were a YEC. Unless you are one, you
were (de facto) lying, whether or not your intent was harmful.
>Just because something is done in accordance with the rules doesn't
>mean it's moral or that those who are outraged by it shouldn't speak
>out. I find your apologizing for the ICR to be disgusting.
Like I said. It's intellectually dishonest and immoral, but
unfortunately we have no way of imposing intellectual honesty on those
unwilling to respect it.
<snip sig>
Yog Shoggoth
>>Just out of curiosity, unless they have a
>>statement in a "User Agreement", where it's agreed
>>that they have the right to edit a post, and some
>>way of annotating that a post was edited and in
>>what way, and possibly a mechanism that allows one
>>to view the original, aren't they treading on thin
>>ice, legally? Or is it "It's my playpen, and I
>>can do whatever I want"?
>I don't know. It looks perilously close to libel to me -- you are being
>misrepresented by a publisher in such a way as to damage your reputation. I
>don't know how the law works in the US for this, but I do know that if I was
>being quoted in a creationist publication (as the ICR forum is) in such a way
>as to make it seem I was in favour of creationism, I'd take considerable
>exception to it.
I seem to recall (from another post on this thread) that, though they
phrase it in such a way that it seems to more refer to curse words
than the subject of discussion here, there is something in their user
agreement to that effect. So unfortunately you seem to have no legal
recourse.
>What if you went to get a job somewhere and this came up?
The fella posting on internet infidels said something like "It's a
login name, not your personal biographical data," so their point would
be that it's unlikely to come up. Then again, do you really think they
would have any problem with just making up something and attributing
it to you in the first place? They seem to have no ethical problem
with out-of-context quoting & etc...
Yog
Louann Miller
>said above, I was under the impression that their TOS said that
>by posting, you were agreeing you were a YEC. Unless you are one, you
>were (de facto) lying, whether or not your intent was harmful.
but while Beowulf wasn't one (although a genuine YEC could easily have
wondered about that question as posed) Erik was and he got file-13'ed
as well.
I also agree with your remark in a neighboring post that they might
just make something up and post it under a previously used ID. Sock
puppetry and identity theft at once. Heck, since these guys apparently
have no moral brakes whatsoever, I don't see why they couldn't simply
make up identities and attribute to them any remarks they want.
Somebody said there were only about a dozen regulars on the ICR forum
-- how do we know how many of them, or even any of them, are real
people instead of mouthpieces for the listmanager?
We've all experienced free speech without brakes here in t.o.; in a
way I can sympathize with ICR for not being able to take the heat. But
it really sheds light on how much weight we should put to the
scientific-sounding "Research" in their name. Research, after all,
begins with asking questions which don't already have doctrinaire
answers.
Louann
Beowulf
>
> Though i agree totally, the person censoring the ICR board was
> wrong, i think using words like Nazi and" fascist tactics",
> though probably correct..may be counter productive in getting
> the issue resolved.
Perhaps a bit of melodrama. The Nazi-bit has been way overdone.
It was just so jarring to see such a thing happening right before
my eyes. I had visions of some 1984-esque encounter and I was
outraged.
As for resolution, I'm not interested in dealing in anyway with
the ICR and I'd wager they're not interested in dealing with me.
It's done.
Beowulf
>
> >Just because something is done in accordance with the rules doesn't
> >mean it's moral or that those who are outraged by it shouldn't
> >speak out. I find your apologizing for the ICR to be disgusting.
>
> Like I said. It's intellectually dishonest and immoral, but
> unfortunately we have no way of imposing intellectual honesty on
> those unwilling to respect it.
>
> <snip sig>
Right. I didn't fully parse what you were saying originally, and
my reading of the TOS was flawed. So, in one sense I wasn't acting
in good faith when I posted to their forum.
I read in t.o that the ICR forum was open to "honest questions",
and quickly read over the TOS when registering. The "honest
questions" clause has apparently been removed.
I apologize for getting hostile.
Erik
> > >beyond dishonest. Okay. We _need_ a FAQ on this. I volunteer to write it.
> >
Here is my contribution. I put up about 10 posts and was cancelled. I
think the one where I said that ICR would not edit or remove posts put
them over the edge. I don't understand what they are afraid of... The
experience leaves me a bit upset.
So I wrote them and here is my response:
Erik,
We apologize, but it is the administrator's discretion of how things
work on
the forum. If he removed your membership, we trust that it was for a
good
reason. If you have questions in regard to creation/evolution,
please
address it to our PIO officer at http://www.icr.org/contact.html
Thank you.
> Below is the result of your feedback form. It was submitted by:
> Erik (nilger...@hotmail.com)
> on Monday, July 23, 2001 at 13:01:30
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>
> subject: Discussion Board
>
> email: nilger...@hotmail.com
>
> how_found: another website
>
> feedback: What is up? It seems my discussion board login
"Nilgeranthrib"
has been suspended? This upsets me greatly. I stated very
specifically that
I thought ICR did not/should not be editing people's comments as we
have
nothing to fear from evolutionists. Your action suspending me makes
me feel
otherwise. What are you afraid of? The facts support us, don't they?
Why are
you supressing a free exchange of thoughts and ideas? I can get that
at
Talk.Origins but not at ICR? Something smells rotten to me.
>
> If you think I am a closet evolutionist, why don't you do a little
research at T.O. and look over my posts. You will see it is always
YEC
compliant.
>
> I request an answer to why I was suspended and when I can expect
re-establishing my identity.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Erik
>
Paul Hanley
subject title to the ICR (Nazi Censorship Tactics), but I suspect that
you yourself may not fully understand what that really means, and
instead were just using that as a standard epithet (label) to register
your moral outrage at what they've been doing. I imagine if you meant
it literally, you would not be so surprised and/or frustrated at their
actions, but instead would have merely pointed out the parallels to
demonstrate to everyone what they are.
Bear with me for awhile while I try to explain what I mean:
On 23 Jul 2001 10:35:40 -0400, Beowulf <skr...@chimpattglobal.net>
wrote:
Here you say they are making use of a "fascist tactic
to disallow true discussion from taking place". Fair enough. But
then you go on to say what the "responsible and honest thing to do"
would be. Again, fair enough. Unless you really expect them to *do*
the responsible and honest thing, and at the same time really
*believe* they are using fascist tactics, instead of you merely using
this as an epithet to register your moral outrage.
Keep bearing with me (I'll get to the point, I promise!). :)
But remember, those who use "Nazi Censorship Tactics" are not "normal
people". They shouldn't be expected to act in a "normal way".
Read on...
>> My reading of the above paragraph in no way justifies
>> changing this:
>>
>> "Could someone tell me how we can see objects millions
>> of light-years away if the universe were created less
>> than 10,000 years ago."
>>
>> to this:
>>
>> "Has anybody checked out Dr. Humphrey's latest article
>> here? It is about the last seven years of starlight and
>> time. It has related links on Russ and all the debates
>> from AIG's tech journal. It is pretty awesome. He even
>> has a video called Starlight and Time as well."
>>
>> I repeat my accusation:
>> Your admin is acting in an irresponsible and dishonest
>> manner, now admit it.
You ask them to "admit" they are acting in an irresponsible and
dishonest manner, yet at the same time you accuse them of behaving
like Nazis?! (Now Mr. Hitler, *admit* that you did a bad thing! Come
on now...) Hmm...
This is where I think you go wrong, and show that you really don't
fully understand what "Nazi Censorship Tactics" really means. They
said above that:
"You acknowledge that ICR reserves the right to, and
will, monitor any and all information transmitted or
received through the site. ICR at its sole discretion
and without further notice to you, may review, edit,
remove or prohibit the transmission or receipt of any
information which we deem inappropriate or that violates
any term(s) or condition(s) of this agreement."
To me, this statement, and their subsequent action, are fully in line
with what one may expect from someone using "Nazi Censorship Tactics"
(though not in the service, of course, of Nazi ideology itself). The
key terms are: "at its sole discretion", "edit", "any information
which we deem inappropriate" etc. The Nazis were very keen to keep
the aura of legitimacy on everything they did, and relied on that aura
to give them the freedom to do whatever it was that their doctrine led
them to do. So it is here. The ICR didn't do anything that (if this
quoted material is an accurate copy of their terms and condition) you
didn't agree they *could* do when you signed up for their service. To
accuse them of using Nazi tactics may be closer to the truth than even
you yourself may have realized. (I'm not beating up on you, I'm just
trying to show that "Nazi" is more than just an insult-word.)
By way of comparison, look at the justification the Nazis used for
abrogating the various treaties they signed with various countries,
and the pretexts they used for marching into various countries.
You'll find that in those cases, like here with the ICR, there was
employed that certain "aura of legality" to each of their actions.
There are many parallels among the various dogmatic and fanatical
groups throughout history, and it's to the advantage of those who are
neither dogmatic nor fanatical to understand what these are, in order
to better combat dogmatism and fanaticism. Remaining ignorant of
these parallels only helps the dogmatists and fanatics.
(At least that's my *own* fanatical dogma! Be wary of it!) ;)
Paul
Erik
> > ICR newsgroup. I also put forth many other questions that arose from
> > my time on T.O.
> >
> > All went fine for a few hours as there was a good exchange of ideas.
> > But then, all of a sudden, I could not post anymore. I don't know what
> > happened!! Obviously my userid was killed. I am not ahppy. Iamgine,
> > the ICR dispatched ERIK from their newsgroup.
> >
> > Well, I gotta say one thing, even if I disagree with some of the T.O.
> > stands, at least it is a forum where people can talk freely. The ICR
> > board is populated by pretend scientists who only want to hear their
> > fellow yes-men.
>
> I must say, Erik, you're being unusually sensible lately. Do you feel all
> right? ;)
Hey, have you read any of the tripe on the ICR newsboard? Most of it
is "this coulda happened" with no proof, just some garbage theory with
no supporting evidence whatsoever. Sheesh, I hope the real creation
scientists don't act like that.
Specifically, there was one names "slawlell" who posts on every topic
imaginable and is a prominent "yes" man. Another great one is Brad
McFall whose ramblings make little to no sense whatsoever but he sure
tries hard to impress. His ponderous prattlings demonstrate an
impressive vocabulary coupled with little to no understanding of what
he is saying. I personally think he is an evolutionist troll trying to
discredit creationism.
So I will stick with the Gishes and so forth for real science.
Erik