winged Nessies fly high in Skye

[Burkhard]

A nice fossil find on Skye, filling some more gaps in the
evolutionary history of pterodactyloids
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68207021

They called it Ceoptera, though the explanation on the BBC
page are just a bit misleading, if one wants to be
pedantic,

They named it after ceo, which is mist in Scottish Gaelic (the
BBC gives for some reason the lenited form cheo,, whic could
be vocative (O mist!) or dative. - Eilean a' Cheò, Isle of Mist.is not
technically the Gaelic name of Isle of Syke -that would be An t-Eilean Sgitheanach - but the Gaelic translation of the Viking name for it,
and used only poetically. But Sgithenach "might" be derived from
an old Gaelic word meaning "winged", which would fit the find
particularly well.

And as one ancient text says :"the hunger battle-birds were filled
in Skye with the blood of foemen killed", this obviously proves
pterodactyloids, just like Nessie, were there contemporaneously with humans :o)

the academic paper is here
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68207021

[jillery]

On Tue, 6 Feb 2024 00:24:04 -0800 (PST), Burkhard <b.sc...@ed.ac.uk>
wrote:

Of course. They were kept as pets, in cages. Much more interesting
than canaries or parakeets.

>the academic paper is here
>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68207021

--
To know less than we don't know is the nature of most knowledge

[Bob Casanova]

On Tue, 6 Feb 2024 00:24:04 -0800 (PST), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by Burkhard
<b.sc...@ed.ac.uk>:

Translations and interpretations are interesting, especially
done centuries or millennia after the fact. I remember a
riff on that subject, in which an historian a couple of
millennia in the future proved *conclusively* that the
stories of WWII were fables, using primarily the names of
participants and their suitability for their roles* - the
Iron Hewer, who worked for the Field of Roses and with the
Church on the Hill (symbolic of the steadfast nature of the
British), and who led his forces to defeat the Wolf Prince
with money provided by the Morning Dew (which watered the
Field of Roses). And there were more.

*(Eisenhower, a reincarnation of Talliaferro; Adolph;
Roosevelt; Churchill; Morgenthau)

He did a *really* good job, at least IMHO.

>
>the academic paper is here
>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68207021

--

Bob C.

"The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries, is not
'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"

- Isaac Asimov

[Mark Isaak]

Closer to Nessie is the ichthyosaur _Dearcmhara_, also found on Skye,
also named in Gaelic ("marine lizard").

--
Mark Isaak
"Wisdom begins when you discover the difference between 'That
doesn't make sense' and 'I don't understand.'" - Mary Doria Russell

[Burkhard]

On Tuesday, February 6, 2024 at 5:13:02 PM UTC, Mark Isaak wrote:
> On 2/6/24 12:24 AM, Burkhard wrote:
> > A nice fossil find on Skye, filling some more gaps in the
> > evolutionary history of pterodactyloids
> > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68207021
> >
> > They called it Ceoptera, though the explanation on the BBC
> > page are just a bit misleading, if one wants to be
> > pedantic,
> >
> > They named it after ceo, which is mist in Scottish Gaelic (the
> > BBC gives for some reason the lenited form cheo,, whic could
> > be vocative (O mist!) or dative. - Eilean a' Cheò, Isle of Mist.is not
> > technically the Gaelic name of Isle of Syke -that would be An t-Eilean Sgitheanach - but the Gaelic translation of the Viking name for it,
> > and used only poetically. But Sgithenach "might" be derived from
> > an old Gaelic word meaning "winged", which would fit the find
> > particularly well.
> >
> > And as one ancient text says :"the hunger battle-birds were filled
> > in Skye with the blood of foemen killed", this obviously proves
> > pterodactyloids, just like Nessie, were there contemporaneously with humans :o)
> >
> > the academic paper is here
> > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68207021
> Closer to Nessie is the ichthyosaur _Dearcmhara_, also found on Skye,
> also named in Gaelic ("marine lizard").
>
> --

I had wondered about this when I first heard it - my guess (hope)
is that they asked a proper Gaelic speaker for advice, for me as
a rank beginner at least it sounded odd. Mhara is lenited form of mara, so "off
the sea". Muc-mhara for instance is a sea-pig, a.k.a. a whale. So
far so good, but dearc has two meanings:
a) berry
b) any small, striped animal, could be a lizard or other reptile, but also bees
and wasps.

The first use is more common, so I initially thought they had meant it
as "sea-berry", like the sea-pig, as a bit of fat shaming :o)

So daerc on its own is not just lizards As far as I know lizard is
dearc-luachrach, a "rushing or scuttling striped animal". Less
ambiguous would have been laghairt, or laghairt-mhuc - derived
from Latin "lacerta" -maybe that was the reason they did
not use it, if you go through the trouble to name it in Gaelic,
using the Gaelic version of a Latin term may have been
self-defeating.

[Burkhard]

a small PS: I liked the story about the other part of its name even better:
Shawcrossi is named after Brian Shawcross, an amateur collector who
stumbled over the bones in the 1950s, and instead of selling them to the highest
bidder donated them to the University of Glasgow. There they remained
more or less forgotten until 10 years ago or so - and the researchers who
rediscovered it decided to name it after the generous donor rather than looking
for glory for themselves.

[J. J. Lodder]

Wasn't there a realy big one there, some years ago?
Not quite Nessie size, but at least a few meters wingspan,
(big enough to kill a Harry Potter owl)

Jan

[Burkhard]

That's the one Mark mentioned, i guess - looks nasty:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dearcmhara

[J. J. Lodder]

Burkhard <b.sc...@ed.ac.uk> wrote:

Yes, and no, I was thinking of a big flying one,
in the news some time ago.
Don't bother, I really should search for myself,

Jan

[Ernest Major]

I thought that you might be referring to a vagrant albatross (referring
back to [battle-]birds, rather than pterodactyloids), but a search for
such turned up Dearc sgiathanach.

https://apnews.com/article/science-europe-fossils-scotland-87c750c83f94396adeb8af1d0855bac8

I'd guess that "battle-birds" refers to ravens, but in the vein of the
original they're obviously the notoriously pugnacious bonxies (skuas,
hence the name Skye).

--
alias Ernest Major

[Burkhard]

Wrong Island :o) That is Skúgvoy, one of the Faroe Islands.

The etymology of Skye is unclear/contested. I gave one, "winged",
to describe the geographical form, but that one has a lot of problems
too ("winged" is really "sgiathach", and there is no easy way to get from
there to Sgitheanach without violating one phonological rule or more,
and it is also not attested anywhere).

Another suggestion was the connection to the warrior maiden Scáthach,
whose house was on Skye - called Dun Scaich, fortress of shadows.

and then there is the Norse confusion, who called it Skuy, Island of mist -
but this was probably after they encountered the name Skye and bacl-explained
it in Norse and as I said, it them became transalted into Gaelic as
Eilean a' Cheo, the "isle of the mist".

The honest answer is probably "we do't know", but Ptolomey referred to it in Latin
as "Scitis", and while nobody knows what the meaning of the scit root was, from there
it would be less difficult to derive Skye

[J. J. Lodder]

Indeed, thanks, that was the one. Albatross sized indeed,
at 2.5 meter.
As it is the only one found so far there may even have been bigger ones.

> I'd guess that "battle-birds" refers to ravens, but in the vein of the
> original they're obviously the notoriously pugnacious bonxies (skuas,
> hence the name Skye).

Thanks, I didn't know the British name for them.
Their southern brethern, also known as skuas,
always appear as the baddies in penguin footage,
stealing eggs and chicks and so on,

Jan

[Ernest Major]

Bonxie is the Shetland dialect term, which has acquired somewhat wide
usage over recent years.

--
alias Ernest Major

[Robert Carnegie]

There's a possibly mangled story by David Attenborough
told in a comment on this Web page - he makes nature
documentaries. I've heard him tell it in a series of
short radio talks, the title temporarily escapes me.
<https://forteana-blog.blogspot.com/2016/07/out-of-place-pterodactyl.html>

In this version, he'd been filming for television with
a model pteranodon actually flying. Later that day
he went to a party and the hostess asked him what he'd
been doing lately. "I've been filming a pteranodon"
said Attenborough. The hostess replied "Oh, they're so
lovely aren't they".

[Burkhard]

you might also like this story - the Nessie files form the 1930s that document
the growing conflict at the time between Edinburgh and London who should
get Nessie once s/he is captured:
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/10/28/loch-ness-monster-natural_n_6060004.html

[erik simpson]

Aye. Tis nae business of the Sassenachs.

[J. J. Lodder]

erik simpson <eastsi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2/8/24 9:29 AM, Burkhard wrote:

True zoology is practised with a rifle, eh?

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@gmail.com> wrote:

> There's a possibly mangled story by David Attenborough
> told in a comment on this Web page - he makes nature
> documentaries. I've heard him tell it in a series of
> short radio talks, the title temporarily escapes me.
> <https://forteana-blog.blogspot.com/2016/07/out-of-place-pterodactyl.html>

It looks like a small one coming out of an egg,

Jan
(yes, I know)

[Burkhard]

> \

European pterodactyl eggs often look just like crowns,
a case of aggressive mimicry. Dragons sleep on hoards that often
contain golden crowns. Due to their fire-breathing, they
also have very warm bellies, and apart from itinerant heroes have
few know predators. Pterodactyls that lay eggs in crown-shape
then hide them in the dragon hoard, and lure dragons to hatch their
eggs for them. The dragon heat speeds up the hatching time,
while protecting it from predators. Heroes by contrast typically
end up in the army, so knowledge about this behaviour was
preserved in the collective memory of army units near dragon
hoards, reflectec here in the coat of arms of the Royal Aircraft Establishment,

> Jan
> (yes, I know)

that is reassuring to know, as forgetting one's own
name is worrying!

[Burkhard]

On Friday, February 9, 2024 at 10:03:05 AM UTC, J. J. Lodder wrote:

could have been worse, they could have sent a botanist.
Getting Nessie into a giant press would have been ever
so messy.

[Bob Casanova]

On Sat, 10 Feb 2024 00:07:24 -0800 (PST), the following

appeared in talk.origins, posted by Burkhard
<b.sc...@ed.ac.uk>:

Or a lepidopterist; really large pins required.