a little OT: a prodigious boy of 4 years

[eridanus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omuYi2Vhgjo

how could someone explain the performance of this boy could be explain
by genetics?

Eridanus

[wiki trix]

Not sure what your question is about. For starters, if it were not for
genetics, the kid would not be there in the first place. As for the
level of musical skill and dexterity, well that is determined more
immediately by neural network and brain chemistry processes. But again
genetics is important for establishing those processes from the outset
as well. As for genetics "explaining" this sort of thing, well, the
developmental process from genes to neural network to memory and motor
skill is not well enough understood to say much about that in closed
form. Perhaps the Blue Brain project will shed light on that. But my
guess is that even then, we will not have much in the way of closed
form theory as a result. As is the case with most things in complexity
science, we do not get the sort of satisfaction that you would
normally expect from an "explanation" in the sense of traditional
scientific theory. Your question is like asking how someone could
explain topics in climate dynamics in terms of the Schr�dinger
equation.

[eridanus]

> explain topics in climate dynamics in terms of the Schrödinger
> equation.

I was not asking for an explanation of the ability the boy is showing.
I was asking if someone could explain this as a virtue of genetics of
this boy in particular, excluding other humans boys in general. For
I was engage long ago in an argument with someone that said Mozart was
a musical genius for genetic reasons.

I understand that to play the piano this way, the boy should have a
a human brain. If the boy would had a chimp the brain he would have
serious problems to play the piano this well.

Eridanus


Eridanus

[wiki trix]

On Apr 7, 7:56�pm, eridanus <leopoldo.perd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> El lunes, 8 de abril de 2013 00:04:43 UTC+1, wiki trix �escribi�:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 7, 6:36�pm, eridanus <leopoldo.perd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omuYi2Vhgjo
>
> > > how could someone explain the performance of this boy could be explain
>
> > > by genetics?
>
> > Not sure what your question is about. For starters, if it were not for
> > genetics, the kid would not be there in the first place. As for the
> > level of musical skill and dexterity, well that is determined more
> > immediately by neural network and brain chemistry processes. But again
> > genetics is important for establishing those processes from the outset
> > as well. As for genetics "explaining" this sort of thing, well, the
> > developmental process from genes to neural network to memory and motor
> > skill is not well enough understood to say much about that in closed
> > form. Perhaps the Blue Brain project will shed light on that. But my
> > guess is that even then, we will not have much in the way of closed
> > form theory as a result. As is the case with most things in complexity
> > science, we do not get the sort of satisfaction that you would
> > normally expect from an "explanation" in the sense of traditional
> > scientific theory. Your question is like asking how someone could

> > explain topics in climate dynamics in terms of the Schr�dinger

> > equation.
>
> I was not asking for an explanation of the ability the boy is showing.
> I was asking if someone could explain this as a virtue of genetics of
> this boy in particular, excluding other humans boys in general. �For
> I was engage long ago in an argument with someone that said Mozart was
> a musical genius for genetic reasons.

Your question is no more clear now than it was. What are you asking
exactly?

[Mike Painter]

Normal curve.

It's why sports figures get the big bucks.

Add that the language the child speaks may require something akin to
perfect pitch and that music may be considered a language and it's not
hard to understand.

I'm at the other end of the curve and carried a tune once.
I have never been able to tell that a C played on one instrument is
the same as that played on another.

[eridanus]

El lunes, 8 de abril de 2013 03:53:26 UTC+1, wiki trix escribi�:

I was not arguing anything. Simply put, some people pretend than a boy
like this one is a rare phenomenon of genetics, like a boy that is born
with two heads, a dwarf, or a mental retarded. I was teasing someone to
present a reasoned argument, that the ability of this boy is due to a
peculiar structure of his genes, like in the case of a mental retarded,
or an autistic. Or if someone else can say the boy is a normal boy, and
its behavioral attitude is due to a carefully training.

Eridanus

[Robert Carnegie]

On Monday, 8 April 2013 00:56:44 UTC+1, eridanus wrote:
> I was not asking for an explanation of the ability the boy is showing.
> I was asking if someone could explain this as a virtue of genetics of
> this boy in particular, excluding other humans boys in general.
> For I was engage long ago in an argument with someone that said
> Mozart was a musical genius for genetic reasons.
>
> I understand that to play the piano this way, the boy should have a a
> human brain. If the boy would had a chimp the brain he would have
> serious problems to play the piano this well.

Yes. And many of us believe that chimpanzees differ from humans
only in genetics, and, not much of genetics.

On the other hand, chimpanzees are pretty clever at some activities.

Googling for (chimpanzee music) gets me an article that claims that
chimpanzees prefer music without dissonance, and another that says
they cannot keep time.
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8174000/8174534.stm>
<http://www.escom.org/proceedings/ICMPC2000/Wed/Merker.htm>

As for your actual point, credible alternative claims have been made
about exceptional skills in general - that nearly anyone can acquire
an exceptional skill if they are interested in it and work very hard
to develop it. (And that's assuming that this really is a little boy
playing the piano skilfully, and not a faked report which could be
produced in various ways.)

There was recently a book on this topic but I've forgotten the title.
There was something in it about a neighbourhood that had several
young people who were extremely able at some skill, I forget what,
table tennis or playing tuba or whatever. I only heard about it and
didn't read it, but my reflex reaction is that nevertheless some
people will develop a really prodigious ability and some will be
only competent at best.

I think the book also referred to a recent claim in another book that
there's a practical upper limit on useful development of practical
or professional skills that is already evident in the length of
approved training courses for these activities - doctor, lawyer -
and it's the suspicious round number of 10,000 hours. For scale,
that's about 7 hours a day x 5 days a week x 50 weeks a year x 6 years.
Or 10 hours x 7 days x 50 weeks x 3 years. That's achievable for
a four year old with very determined parents, but he probably
can't talk.

But I still don't believe that everyone can do anything they want
by spending 10,000 hours at it.

[wiki trix]

What gene codes for being born with two heads? That is obviously a
fetal development error rather than a genetic error. As for autistic,
that is also far from being the result of pure genetics. Ditto for
musical ability.

[Burkhard]

On 8 Apr, 12:33, Robert Carnegie <rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote:
> On Monday, 8 April 2013 00:56:44 UTC+1, eridanus wrote:
> > �I was not asking for an explanation of the ability the boy is showing.
> > I was asking if someone could explain this as a virtue of genetics of
> > this boy in particular, excluding other humans boys in general.
> > For I was engage long ago in an argument with someone that said
> > Mozart was a musical genius for genetic reasons.
>
> > I understand that to play the piano this way, the boy should have a a
> > human brain. If the boy would had a chimp the brain he would have
> > serious problems to play the piano this well.
>
> Yes. �And many of us believe that chimpanzees differ from humans
> only in genetics, and, not much of genetics.
>
> On the other hand, chimpanzees are pretty clever at some activities.
>
> Googling for (chimpanzee music) gets me an article that claims that
> chimpanzees prefer music without dissonance, and another that says
> they cannot keep time.
> <http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8174000/8174534.stm>
> <http://www.escom.org/proceedings/ICMPC2000/Wed/Merker.htm>
>

or try this one, and blame it on the boogie

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4871550/i-can-seal-the-beat.html

[Mike Duffy]

Mike Painter <mddotp...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
news:vtj4m8lm1js9us2ci...@4ax.com:

> I'm at the other end of the curve and carried a tune once.
> I have never been able to tell that a C played on one instrument is
> the same as that played on another.

They say that people like you ironically are the best orchestral musicians,
because no attempt is ever made to "interpret" the music.


--
http://pages.videotron.ca/duffym/index.htm

[Glenn]

"Burkhard" <b.sc...@ed.ac.uk> wrote in message news:121a3e2e-41d9-441e...@m9g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...

Yes, and horses can count and dogs can talk.

[TomS]

"On Sun, 7 Apr 2013 15:36:11 -0700 (PDT), in article
<a3adfc27-2347-4b6c...@googlegroups.com>, eridanus stated..."

Maybe I'm too cynical. I certainly don't have anything like the
expertise to judge this. So I'm posting this only to get shot
down by you folks.

I don't understand how a 4-year old has the physical capacity:
small hands, undeveloped muscles; and what of the ability to read
music?


--
---Tom S.

[jillery]

I don't understand how it happens either. But it does happen
semi-regularly. IIUC Mozart showed similar talents at that age. And
it's not just music - Tiger Woods was wiping the pros on the golf
courses from the age of three.

[eridanus]

El lunes, 8 de abril de 2013 12:33:56 UTC+1, Robert Carnegie escribi�:

I loved your comments. It shows that at least you had paid some attention
to this puzzle. I had collected some dozens, perhaps a hundred videos on
youtube about those kids that play something. Some do it better some do
it worse. To fake this ability, as in the kid moves his hands while
a tape player makes the sound, must be as difficult to simulate as the
real thing. Many of the tunes the kids are playing are well known, and
you can see when they commit some errors. To synchronize the movements
of the hands and fingers with the music must be as difficult as to make
the real playing.
Yesterday I was watching three BBC videos about the life of Mozart.
An hour each video. The three videos were recounting the problems
this man had. I was considering different problems around the geniality
of this man, and thinking how much effort and investment of time and
money was needed to create such a monster. The determination of his
father to make of his boy something of higher importance than a musical
servant of a noble man. If his father would had accepted that his son
would become a musical servant like himself, we had barely heard any
news about him. In spite of the success Mozart collected during his
life in Vienna, his life was far off from a continuous chain of triumphs.
A part of his success was due to the subversive connections and allusions
of some his works; like in the magic flute. The spies of the Emperor
would had informed him of the subversive nature of his works. Then,
a sort of rejection was working against him. Then, the success of an
artist must be like any other enterprise, it has a slow take off, some
soaring on the highs and then comes a slow descent to land. Then, an
extraordinary investment on some some particular behavior is done at the
expense of other abilities, other forms of intelligence. Even if Mozart
was a great musician, or a great composer, to the princes of the land
he was nothing more than a music servant who had not any master. This
was like the mark of Cain, a sign of having a rebellious spirit. If you
are the prince the prince of Saxony of or Baden Wuttemberg, such a "free
musical slave" roaming freely on the lands of Europe was a bad omen. A
premonition of some nasty future that was looming over their heads.
Mozart was living on the end of the 18 century.

I will continue later. I have to leave now.
Eridanus

[Kermit]

On 8 Apr, 04:33, Robert Carnegie <rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote:
> On Monday, 8 April 2013 00:56:44 UTC+1, eridanus wrote:

> > �ｿｽI was not asking for an explanation of the ability the boy is showing.

> > I was asking if someone could explain this as a virtue of genetics of
> > this boy in particular, excluding other humans boys in general.
> > For I was engage long ago in an argument with someone that said
> > Mozart was a musical genius for genetic reasons.
>
> > I understand that to play the piano this way, the boy should have a a
> > human brain. If the boy would had a chimp the brain he would have
> > serious problems to play the piano this well.
>

> Yes. �ｿｽAnd many of us believe that chimpanzees differ from humans

> only in genetics, and, not much of genetics.
>
> On the other hand, chimpanzees are pretty clever at some activities.
>
> Googling for (chimpanzee music) gets me an article that claims that
> chimpanzees prefer music without dissonance, and another that says
> they cannot keep time.
> <http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8174000/8174534.stm>
> <http://www.escom.org/proceedings/ICMPC2000/Wed/Merker.htm>
>
> As for your actual point, credible alternative claims have been made
> about exceptional skills in general - that nearly anyone can acquire
> an exceptional skill if they are interested in it and work very hard

> to develop it. �ｿｽ(And that's assuming that this really is a little boy

> playing the piano skilfully, and not a faked report which could be
> produced in various ways.)
>
> There was recently a book on this topic but I've forgotten the title.
> There was something in it about a neighbourhood that had several
> young people who were extremely able at some skill, I forget what,

> table tennis or playing tuba or whatever. �ｿｽI only heard about it and

> didn't read it, but my reflex reaction is that nevertheless some
> people will develop a really prodigious ability and some will be
> only competent at best.
>
> I think the book also referred to a recent claim in another book that
> there's a practical upper limit on useful development of practical
> or professional skills that is already evident in the length of
> approved training courses for these activities - doctor, lawyer -

> and it's the suspicious round number of 10,000 hours. �ｿｽFor scale,

> that's about 7 hours a day x 5 days a week x 50 weeks a year x 6 years.

> Or 10 hours x 7 days x 50 weeks x 3 years. �ｿｽThat's achievable for

> a four year old with very determined parents, but he probably
> can't talk.
>
> But I still don't believe that everyone can do anything they want
> by spending 10,000 hours at it.

Oh, they can do any activity pretty well with that amount of training
(assuming they are normal), but they won't be Mozart without the
genes. As a 62 year-old martial artist, I have long resigned myself
to the likelihood that I won't ever be Bruce Lee :(

kermit

[Kermit]

A paper released recently on practice has reviewed past papers and
came to the conclusion that mature masters of an art (typing, music,
etc.) depended more on prolonged practice than native talent (genetic
and developmental). However, I think that for this much talent to show
so early (as with Mozart and his sister) the difference is genetic.
Exposure to music and training helps, but no amount of training will
get most kids to this level.

Of *course other factors like normal nutrition, etc. play a role but
given normal conditions, it is pretty clear that some individuals are
just better at some skills than most other people are, and the younger
they are, the more likely is genetics to be the dominant difference.

kermit

[Kermit]

Here's another:
http://www.insidebayarea.com/bayarealiving/ci_3049622

Mark Savage, who as an autistic teenager still needed his mother to
help him walk to school (or he'd get distracted and lost), but who was
fronting a professional jazz trio (and not just a novelty act).

kermit

[SkyEyes]

On Apr 8, 6:18�am, Mike Duffy <Use.web.form@website_in_sig.com> wrote:
> Mike Painter <mddotpain...@sbcglobal.net> wrote innews:vtj4m8lm1js9us2ci...@4ax.com:

>
> > I'm at the other end of the curve and carried a tune once.
> > I have never been able to tell that a C played on one instrument is
> > the same as that played on another.
>
> They say that people like you ironically are the best orchestral musicians,
> because no attempt is ever made to "interpret" the music.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. As someone who took violin lessons for 20 years and
played in many an orchestra, this is *my* area of expertise. Please
believe me when I tell you that orchestral players *do* interpret the
music. Where did you get the idea that we do not? Of course, you
have to stay within the bounds of the written music and the
conductor's indications, but you've still got leeway to put some soul
into what you're playing. In fact, that's what good orchestral
players do.

Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
skyeyes nine at cox dot net OR
skyeyes nine at yahoo dot com

[Mike Painter]

On Mon, 8 Apr 2013 13:18:07 +0000 (UTC), Mike Duffy
<Use.web.form@website_in_sig.com> wrote:

>Mike Painter <mddotp...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
>news:vtj4m8lm1js9us2ci...@4ax.com:
>
>> I'm at the other end of the curve and carried a tune once.
>> I have never been able to tell that a C played on one instrument is
>> the same as that played on another.
>
>They say that people like you ironically are the best orchestral musicians,
>because no attempt is ever made to "interpret" the music.

Orchestral musicians play the music and follow the director or they
will never be in an orchestra.

People like me would not know, within a wide range if they are in tune
and when the piano gives out an "A" to tune on they would not be able
to relate it to their instrument.

[Mike Painter]

On Mon, 8 Apr 2013 11:52:25 -0700 (PDT), SkyEyes <skye...@cox.net>
wrote:

What's the difference between a violin and a viola? There is no
difference. The violin just looks smaller because the violinist's head
is so much bigger.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What's the difference between a violin and a fiddle? A fiddle is fun
to listen to.

http://www.mit.edu/~jcb/jokes/

Barrage (http://www.barrage.org/) starts their act with two women
coming on stage. One holds up an instrument and says it is a violin,
the other holds up an instrument and says it is a fiddle.
One of them asks what the difference is.

I was fairly close to the stage and yelled that one of them had more
beer on it.

[eridanus]

El lunes, 8 de abril de 2013 06:07:47 UTC+1, Mike Painter escribi�:

To say to learn to play music is similar to learn to speak it is a
little daring. While about 95% of people can learn about more than
8,000 words of its mother tongue, very few people learn to play
the piano or the violin. There must exist a formidable barrier,
like any of your parents had to know how to play the thing, and
have to have the will of teaching a kid to play. If parent who can
play the piano think it is a waste of time to teach his son this
ability, the boy is not going to learn, even if his mom or dad, is
professional musician. Just imagine that I was a high school
player of basketball and hat to retire because of a physical
lesion. I was a little pissed off for the time lost, and for being
obliged to start my life working on a shitty job. I had not much
help from insurance and I am feeling the sport is a risky bet.
Then, I am not going to push any of my kids to play basketball
by example.

To plan the future of a kid as a professional pianist in risky bet.
A parent that decides this has to be dementially optimist. But once
it had started had to invest a lot of effort and money into the
venture. For I see this as a risky venture. A little like the people
of the Mayflower that emigrated to America.

Then, for a boy to learn to play the piano is not a banal or trivial
enterprise, and the parents that start this venture can commit a lot
of errors. Depending on the quality and quantity of those errors,
the future pianist can be a success or a failure.

To learn to play the piano is not a trivial enterprise as to learn
to speak in our mother tongue. Unless you consider that one does
not know his mother tongue till he understands properly more than
60 thousand words.

Eridanus

[eridanus]

El lunes, 8 de abril de 2013 17:14:52 UTC+1, jillery escribi�:

a child at four years of age, has enough brain to learn to read and
write in a light manner at least. And a boy light the one in the
video "can or not read" a little the musical notations. It depends
on the importance his parents gave to this. But to play this melody
and few more the boy does not need to be able to read music yet.
One ability is independent of the other. You can know how to speak,
but not how to read or write. Those are independent abilities.

Eridanus

and a fe

[eridanus]

El lunes, 8 de abril de 2013 17:31:42 UTC+1, Kermit escribi�:

> On 8 Apr, 04:33, Robert Carnegie <rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> > On Monday, 8 April 2013 00:56:44 UTC+1, eridanus wrote:
>

> > > �I was not asking for an explanation of the ability the boy is showing.

>
> > > I was asking if someone could explain this as a virtue of genetics of
>
> > > this boy in particular, excluding other humans boys in general.
>
> > > For I was engage long ago in an argument with someone that said
>
> > > Mozart was a musical genius for genetic reasons.
>
> >
>
> > > I understand that to play the piano this way, the boy should have a a
>
> > > human brain. If the boy would had a chimp the brain he would have
>
> > > serious problems to play the piano this well.
>
> >
>

> > Yes. �And many of us believe that chimpanzees differ from humans

>
> > only in genetics, and, not much of genetics.
>
> >
>
> > On the other hand, chimpanzees are pretty clever at some activities.
>
> >
>
> > Googling for (chimpanzee music) gets me an article that claims that
>
> > chimpanzees prefer music without dissonance, and another that says
>
> > they cannot keep time.
>
> > <http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8174000/8174534.stm>
>
> > <http://www.escom.org/proceedings/ICMPC2000/Wed/Merker.htm>
>
> >
>
> > As for your actual point, credible alternative claims have been made
>
> > about exceptional skills in general - that nearly anyone can acquire
>
> > an exceptional skill if they are interested in it and work very hard
>

> > to develop it. �(And that's assuming that this really is a little boy

>
> > playing the piano skilfully, and not a faked report which could be
>
> > produced in various ways.)
>
> >
>
> > There was recently a book on this topic but I've forgotten the title.
>
> > There was something in it about a neighbourhood that had several
>
> > young people who were extremely able at some skill, I forget what,
>

> > table tennis or playing tuba or whatever. �I only heard about it and

>
> > didn't read it, but my reflex reaction is that nevertheless some
>
> > people will develop a really prodigious ability and some will be
>
> > only competent at best.
>
> >
>
> > I think the book also referred to a recent claim in another book that
>
> > there's a practical upper limit on useful development of practical
>
> > or professional skills that is already evident in the length of
>
> > approved training courses for these activities - doctor, lawyer -
>

> > and it's the suspicious round number of 10,000 hours. �For scale,

>
> > that's about 7 hours a day x 5 days a week x 50 weeks a year x 6 years.
>

> > Or 10 hours x 7 days x 50 weeks x 3 years. �That's achievable for

>
> > a four year old with very determined parents, but he probably
>
> > can't talk.
>
> >
>
> > But I still don't believe that everyone can do anything they want
>
> > by spending 10,000 hours at it.
>
>
>
> Oh, they can do any activity pretty well with that amount of training
>
> (assuming they are normal), but they won't be Mozart without the
>
> genes. As a 62 year-old martial artist, I have long resigned myself
>
> to the likelihood that I won't ever be Bruce Lee :(
>
>
>
> kermit

there is more than a mere amount of hours of training to become something
comparable to a Mozart. It is not a simple problem of learning some
mechanical abilities like to play a number of tunes. I see more the case
of Mozart and others, like a serious brain washing. That is the reason
why this profession is a risky business. If you invest too much effort
into this enterprise, is necessary a sufficient number of rewards, or reinforcers; I am using the jargon of behaviorism.

Then, to have a sufficient brain washing, needed to achieve the status
of a star in this business, it is also needed that a favorable audience
exists. If there not exist a favorable public eager to consume this
artistic product, the star can end his life in a mental hospital with
a chronic depression, or he can blow off his brain with a revolver.

If you watch the three videos of 58 minutes the BBC made about the
life of Mozart you can see that Mozart passed by several crisis, that
put him on the verge of insanity. The mere fact that he was buried
in a common tomb of those used for indigents, can tell you something
about his social status when he died with 35 years of age. He had his
moments of glory in Vienna, like a little supernova, but at 30 years
of age, he was burn out. This is the idea I got by watching those
videos. I watched also some videos from the life of Beethoven and
it looks a similar story. I got those videos from youtube.

Eridanus

t

[Mike Painter]

A casual search on the Internet will show a lot of research done that
supports the idea that children can start music lessons (piano) at
three and that it is of vast benefit.

http://earlychildhoodmusic.net/benefits-of-teaching-music-to-young-children/

[Mike Painter]

On Mon, 8 Apr 2013 13:38:10 -0700 (PDT), eridanus
<leopoldo...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>a child at four years of age, has enough brain to learn to read and
>write in a light manner at least.

My mother claimed I was a self taught reader at four and that most of
the learning came from National Geographic magazines.
I "blame" my incredibly poor ability to spell on this.

[eridanus]

El lunes, 8 de abril de 2013 17:31:54 UTC+1, Kermit escribi�:

Ok, kermit. Any theory can be more or less dubious or arguable.

If I put this in terms of genes, it is difficult to defend a thesis
that postulates, that if you are a good pianist, but a little short
of being called a genius, your ability is explained by the training.
But with a similar amount of training, if the public considers you
a genius this is explained by your DNA.

What can be said about the quality of the training? You can endure some
20,000 hours of training, but the base of your training was faulty and
did not enhance your self esteem, but on the contrary, your coach had
the vice of demeaning your self-esteem since your first steps in learning. With such a trainer you will never have enough self confidence in your
abilities. Watching the video made by the BBC on the life of Beethoven,
it presents that his father was failed pianist, or for some unknown
reason, he was a little of a drunker. One cannot be sure about how
much of a truth exist in a video like this. Even if made by the BBC.
But let's suppose the dad of Beethoven was often drunk, but had a worse
vice than this. He was a nasty authoritarian. This is a bad combination
for a teacher. His father pretended that his son would train in tiresome
useless exercises, that were customary at this time. Those boring
exercises pretended to dissuade, this is my personal theory, as many boys
as possible of learning the trade of piano playing. Too many pianists
already. There is too many individuals for everything. I remember the bad quality of the books that existed to learn English and the bad quality of
the teachers of English in academies. Then, I decided to study alone, by myself. After learning some thousands words, I began to read novels, in
the assumption that they would be a lot more interesting than any grammar
book of English. That was true really. But I avoided the novels of
authors that were too exaggerated in their vocabulary. Then I choose the
novels that had a simpler language, and it was rather easy to understand
them. If I were to follow the advise of some people that advise me to
read the Ulisses of Joyce, I would never had learned English in my damned
life.

Then, there is something subtle in the art of convincing a boy that he
will be a great pianist. To achieve this successfully, you must ignore
the errors of the boy, and do pay attention only to the parts that he
does more or less well. It is by convincing the boy that he is genial,
that you are cementing in his neurons the conviction that he is already
genial. The most genial that feels the boy, the most interest he will
have to play more an more, until his parent-teacher becomes exhausted.
In such a case you must convince the boy to stop the playing for you
are really tired. Then, instead of pushing the boy to play a little
more, you must ask and plead the boy to stop playing. When occurs this
you are before the sign that you are really doing a good job.
But if you had to remind a boy that it is time to do his piano exercises
this is a sure sign that you are doing a shoddy job of teaching.

Then the main problem in this case to instill a conviction in the kid,
that he cannot stop playing, because he is doing a wonderful job. How
would the child know this? Because you are constantly showering him
with praised for all the playing he is doing. Only a mum or a dad, can
do this careful and persevering job.

Then I think is difficult to affirm that if you are genius or something
this is due to your genes, but if you get short of being a genius, you
are a common folk that trained hard. Just image "hight". People is more
or less tall, you can postulate that hight is more or less genetic. But
it has also a component of your feeding circumstances. If you suffer
hunger during childhood you are not going to be very tall. Then, consider
that high is due mainly to the food you eat. But if you are specially tall
your hight is due to your genes. The hight must be related to the genes
always, either if you are short or you are tall. And food plays also an
independent role, that is difficult to determine with our present knowledge.

There several problems that can impede a child to learn the piano
efficiently. One is when the child is deaf. Other problem if the brain
of the child have problems with the reinforcers that enhance learning.
Or problem with a faulty memory. I am not sure if this phenomenon exists.
But if there is something like a poor memory in a brain, this must be
a serious problem for any serious learning of anything. It must had to
be a rare problem. But mental retarders can be affected by something
like this.

Eridanus

[TomS]

"On Mon, 8 Apr 2013 13:31:53 -0700 (PDT), in article
<d5ded88f-6901-43de...@googlegroups.com>, eridanus stated..."
[...snip...]

>To learn to play the piano is not a trivial enterprise as to learn
>to speak in our mother tongue. Unless you consider that one does
>not know his mother tongue till he understands properly more than
>60 thousand words.
>
>Eridanus
>
>

The Wikipedia article "Vocabulary", under "Native-language vocabulary
size" says:

"A 1995 study shows that junior-high students would be able to
recognize the meanings of about 10,000-12,000 words, while for college
students this number grows up to about 12,000-17,000 and for elderly
adults up to about 17,000-21,000 or more."


--
---Tom S.

[eridanus]

El lunes, 8 de abril de 2013 13:01:00 UTC+1, wiki trix escribi�:

I was making a pun. I know that a boy with two heads was a case
of twin brothers, and an autistic boy can be explained also by some
caring problem in early childhood. But I was making a bad pun.

Eridanus

[eridanus]

El lunes, 8 de abril de 2013 19:52:25 UTC+1, SkyEyes escribi�:

I agree with that, Brenda. A musician specially an orchestral musician
"feels the music, and somewhat modulates to some degree" the music he
is playing.

Then, to have a good conductor makes also a difference. I recall a
Polish movie from the times of the communist era. It was a sort of
critic for aversive authorities. A provincial orchestra was rehearsing
some work to give the welcome to some Polish emigrate that become a
famous conductor in America. He was born in that city, and they wanted
to welcome him at his town of birth. Then, the conductor was a little
son a bitch and rather aversive with the musicians. But the musicians
were doing their best to make the relations worse, by playing badly. It
was obvious by me, and I was not a musician.

Them suddenly, the "American visitor" came a week earlier and appeared
in the theater. The conductor greeted him, and the visitor greeted also
the musicians with some nice words. The conductor explain they were
rehearsing some work and the visitor asked if he could direct for a while.
You are welcome, said the conductor. You can take the baton.
Then, the orchestra started to play a well known work, (I do not remember
now what piece was) then, after some seconds playing, the visitor asked
to stop. The musicians were fearing the worse a little shocked. But the visitor said, "I came here expecting a provincial orchestra playing
badly and I was glad to discover that I had here great quality musicians
playing so wonderfully. It was such a pleasure to hear this passage
that ask you to start from the head again, to experience the same pleasure
once more." The musicians were delighted the way the visitor was treating
them, and as they started again it was noticeable the orchestra had
improved a lot the way it was playing. Moreover, you could see the faces
of the musicians and they were delighted.

Of course, perhaps this was an exaggeration of the movie, but I think that
it must exist something close to the idea that some conductors are magicians.
A good conductor can make an ordinary orchestra to play much better.

I can be wrong, for I am not a musician. And do not know anything about
orchestras.

Eridanus

[eridanus]

El lunes, 8 de abril de 2013 22:52:58 UTC+1, TomS escribi�:

those are averages, of course.

Eridanus

[Desertphile]

On Sun, 7 Apr 2013 15:36:11 -0700 (PDT), eridanus
<leopoldo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omuYi2Vhgjo
>
> how could someone explain the performance of this boy could be explain
> by genetics?

Who said it can be, or has been?

> Eridanus
>


--
Nemo me impune lacessit.
"Let me put it this way, ['lord' Monckton is] the type of guy that masturbates
while looking at himself in the mirror." -- voicubogdan84

[James Beck]

Well, except that Zechmeister, et al were interested in what they
consider functionally important words, not total vocabulary. The
argument has been that native speakers know so many words that direct
instruction has little effect on vocabulary. Their response was that
if you don't know all of the "functionally important" words that you
can still benefit from direct instruction. Functionally important was
defined as the corpus of words in a moderately sized, but
comprehensive English dictionary.

Here's are lists of words ranked around 36,000, 46,000, 56,000, and
60,000 in the English corpus:

carpaccio
disquisition
codger
left-of-center
misty-eyed
drowse
trivialization
outfox
one-hit
paunchy
abstinent
sexton
must-win
toke
animating
intercity
ganache
multistage
roseate
piddling
sexualized
loamy
choked
penitent
flycatcher
baklava
bobblehead
heat-seeking
little-used
Harvard-educated

46,000
nonrecognition
two-timing
trustful
ethnicization
lecithin
kahuna
unnameable
lumpen
tautness
well-accepted
contrastive
fancifully
great-great-grandmother
interleukin
irremediably
rescission
two-liter
burbling
hemodialysis
white-on-white
asteroidal
macro-level
wall-size

56,000
type-2
organisational
dogmatics
developing-world
post-debate
faggy
drifted
pro-apartheid
two-semester
misspeak
trade-show
ex-general
refit
paper-like
sniffling
fire-control
reimposition
three-and-a-half-hour
gob
six-pointed
land-line
three-line
decile

60,000
scotoma
destructor
anthropoid
myasthenia
transmission-line
nonsterile
colectomy
reishi
bazar
goniometric
deafened
anti-Tamil
three-tone
anhydride
debilitative
holloware
anorectal
accentual
picador
pig-iron
agentry
berried
demonstrability
broadtail
jackscrew

In addition to recognizing most (perhaps all) of these words, you
probably also know all or most of the derivative forms that these
words can take within the English grammatical structure. At some
point, "functional" has to mean that the user has need of the word, so
you start teaching subjects or trades rather than vocab.

[alextangent]

Headline in the National Enquirer; "Orchestra Fooled As Cello Player
Admits: 'I'm Just Foot High Violinist'"

[SkyEyes]

Oh, absolutely, the relationship between the conductor and the
musicians makes or breaks the orchestra. (The conductor has to treat
the orchestra as if it is *his*/*her* instrument.) I've played for
conductors whom I've hated, and for those I've idolized. The latter
is better.

Brenda

[SkyEyes]

On Apr 8, 1:14�pm, Mike Painter <mddotpain...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Apr 2013 11:52:25 -0700 (PDT), SkyEyes <skyey...@cox.net>

When you play in an orchestra, why don't they take breaks longer than
15 minutes?
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
Because they don't want to have to re-train the viola players.

Brenda

[SkyEyes]

On Apr 8, 2:15�pm, Mike Painter <mddotpain...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Apr 2013 13:38:10 -0700 (PDT), eridanus
>

> <leopoldo.perd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >a child at four years of age, has enough brain to learn to read and
> >write in a light manner at least.
>
> My mother claimed I was a self taught reader at four and that most of
> the learning came from National Geographic magazines.
> I "blame" my incredibly poor ability to spell on this.

I taught myself to read before starting school, too, and nothing but
trouble ever came of it. I got in trouble in First Grade for hiding
_Treasure Island_ in my copy of _Meet Dick and Jane_ and it colored my
entire academic experience.

[John S. Wilkins]

SkyEyes <skye...@cox.net> wrote:

> On Apr 8, 2:15 pm, Mike Painter <mddotpain...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > On Mon, 8 Apr 2013 13:38:10 -0700 (PDT), eridanus
> >
> > <leopoldo.perd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >a child at four years of age, has enough brain to learn to read and
> > >write in a light manner at least.
> >
> > My mother claimed I was a self taught reader at four and that most of
> > the learning came from National Geographic magazines.
> > I "blame" my incredibly poor ability to spell on this.
>
> I taught myself to read before starting school, too, and nothing but
> trouble ever came of it. I got in trouble in First Grade for hiding
> _Treasure Island_ in my copy of _Meet Dick and Jane_ and it colored my
> entire academic experience.
>

I taught myself on Batman and Superman comics. To this day I can't read
books that are heavy on description, but low on dialogue.

I got to school able to read but not write. Nobody ever thought to teach
me, so my writing is the level of a five year old. Which is why I type.
--
John S. Wilkins, Associate, Philosophy, University of Sydney
http://evolvingthoughts.net
But al be that he was a philosophre,
Yet hadde he but litel gold in cofre

[jillery]

On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 17:12:40 +1100, jo...@wilkins.id.au (John S.
Wilkins) wrote:

>SkyEyes <skye...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> On Apr 8, 2:15 pm, Mike Painter <mddotpain...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> > On Mon, 8 Apr 2013 13:38:10 -0700 (PDT), eridanus
>> >
>> > <leopoldo.perd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >a child at four years of age, has enough brain to learn to read and
>> > >write in a light manner at least.
>> >
>> > My mother claimed I was a self taught reader at four and that most of
>> > the learning came from National Geographic magazines.
>> > I "blame" my incredibly poor ability to spell on this.
>>
>> I taught myself to read before starting school, too, and nothing but
>> trouble ever came of it. I got in trouble in First Grade for hiding
>> _Treasure Island_ in my copy of _Meet Dick and Jane_ and it colored my
>> entire academic experience.
>>
>I taught myself on Batman and Superman comics. To this day I can't read
>books that are heavy on description, but low on dialogue.
>
>I got to school able to read but not write. Nobody ever thought to teach
>me, so my writing is the level of a five year old. Which is why I type.

If by 'writing' you mean cursive penmanship, you were just ahead of
your time. Most schools don't teach that anymore. Or spelling,
apparently.

[eridanus]

El martes, 9 de abril de 2013 00:19:47 UTC+1, Desertphile escribi�:

of course, nobody here that I knows of. I was only teasing to see, if there
was anyone here that defended this thesis.

Eridanus

[TomS]

"On Mon, 08 Apr 2013 22:19:01 -0600, in article
<q427m8lc3cmj30f6c...@4ax.com>, James Beck stated..."
[...snip...]

>In addition to recognizing most (perhaps all) of these words, you
>probably also know all or most of the derivative forms that these
>words can take within the English grammatical structure. At some
>point, "functional" has to mean that the user has need of the word, so
>you start teaching subjects or trades rather than vocab.
>

Thank you.

What this suggests to me is that "vocabulary" is not a simple, clear-
cut thing.


--
---Tom S.

[eridanus]

El lunes, 8 de abril de 2013 21:56:42 UTC+1, eridanus escribi�:
> El lunes, 8 de abril de 2013 17:31:42 UTC+1, Kermit escribi�:

>
> > On 8 Apr, 04:33, Robert Carnegie <rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On Monday, 8 April 2013 00:56:44 UTC+1, eridanus wrote:
>
> >
>

> > > > �I was not asking for an explanation of the ability the boy is showing.

>
> >
>
> > > > I was asking if someone could explain this as a virtue of genetics of
>
> >
>
> > > > this boy in particular, excluding other humans boys in general.
>
> >
>
> > > > For I was engage long ago in an argument with someone that said
>
> >
>
> > > > Mozart was a musical genius for genetic reasons.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > I understand that to play the piano this way, the boy should have a a
>
> >
>
> > > > human brain. If the boy would had a chimp the brain he would have
>
> >
>
> > > > serious problems to play the piano this well.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>

> > > Yes. �And many of us believe that chimpanzees differ from humans

>
> >
>
> > > only in genetics, and, not much of genetics.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > On the other hand, chimpanzees are pretty clever at some activities.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Googling for (chimpanzee music) gets me an article that claims that
>
> >
>
> > > chimpanzees prefer music without dissonance, and another that says
>
> >
>
> > > they cannot keep time.
>
> >
>
> > > <http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8174000/8174534.stm>
>
> >
>
> > > <http://www.escom.org/proceedings/ICMPC2000/Wed/Merker.htm>
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > As for your actual point, credible alternative claims have been made
>
> >
>
> > > about exceptional skills in general - that nearly anyone can acquire
>
> >
>
> > > an exceptional skill if they are interested in it and work very hard
>
> >
>

> > > to develop it. �(And that's assuming that this really is a little boy

>
> >
>
> > > playing the piano skilfully, and not a faked report which could be
>
> >
>
> > > produced in various ways.)
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > There was recently a book on this topic but I've forgotten the title.
>
> >
>
> > > There was something in it about a neighbourhood that had several
>
> >
>
> > > young people who were extremely able at some skill, I forget what,
>
> >
>

> > > table tennis or playing tuba or whatever. �I only heard about it and

>
> >
>
> > > didn't read it, but my reflex reaction is that nevertheless some
>
> >
>
> > > people will develop a really prodigious ability and some will be
>
> >
>
> > > only competent at best.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > I think the book also referred to a recent claim in another book that
>
> >
>
> > > there's a practical upper limit on useful development of practical
>
> >
>
> > > or professional skills that is already evident in the length of
>
> >
>
> > > approved training courses for these activities - doctor, lawyer -
>
> >
>

> > > and it's the suspicious round number of 10,000 hours. �For scale,

>
> >
>
> > > that's about 7 hours a day x 5 days a week x 50 weeks a year x 6 years.
>
> >
>

> > > Or 10 hours x 7 days x 50 weeks x 3 years. �That's achievable for

I should like to add, that sometimes there is something aside that
influences the life of an artist like Mozart.
Mozart, 1756-1791 Laki eruption in Iceland, 1783-1784
Mozart has 27-28 years at that time
List of famines shows the close influence on clime this eruption caused
in the Northern Hemisphere. In 1788 in France a failure of the harvest
caused widespread famine.
If you read about Laki eruption in the wikipedia,
you can read that
The summer of 1783 was the hottest on record and a rare high pressure zone over Iceland caused the winds to blow to the south-east.[9] The poisonous cloud drifted to Bergen in Denmark�Norway, then spread to Prague in the Kingdom of Bohemia (now the Czech Republic) by 17 June, Berlin by 18 June, Paris by 20 June, Le Havre by 22 June, and Great Britain by 23 June. The fog was so thick that boats stayed in port, unable to navigate, and the sun was described as "blood coloured".[9]

Inhaling sulfur dioxide gas causes victims to choke as their internal
soft tissue swells � it reacts with the moisture in lungs and produces
sulfurous acid.[15] The local death rate in Chartres was up by 5% during
August and September, with over 40 dead. In Great Britain, the records
show that the additional deaths were among outdoor workers; the death
rate in Bedfordshire, Lincolnshire and the east coast was perhaps two
or three times the normal rate. It has been estimated that 23,000
British people died from the poisoning.[16]

The weather became very hot, causing severe thunderstorms with large
hailstones that were reported to have killed cattle,[17] until the
haze dissipated in the autumn. The winter of 1783/1784 was very
severe;[18] The naturalist Gilbert White in Selborne, Hampshire,
reported 28 days of continuous frost. The extreme winter is estimated
to have caused 8,000 additional deaths in the UK. In the spring thaw,
Germany and Central Europe reported severe flood damage.[9]

The meteorological impact of Laki continued, contributing significantly
to several years of extreme weather in Europe. In France a sequence
of extremes included a surplus harvest in 1785 that caused poverty
for rural workers, accompanied by droughts and bad winters and summers,
including a violent hailstorm in 1788 that destroyed crops. These events contributed significantly to a build-up of poverty and famine that may
have contributed to the French Revolution in 1789.[19] Laki was only one
factor in a decade of climatic disruption, as Gr�msv�tn was erupting from
1783 to 1785, and a 1998 study of El Ni�o patterns suggests an unusually
strong El Ni�o effect from 1789 to 1793.[20]

When Laki erupted in 1783, Mozart had only 27 years, but he died 8 years
later. I am trying to imply that climatic circumstances can influence
the mood of people in regard to the art.

On the other hand, Mozart was very well educated to be a musician and
a compositor, but he lacked, perhaps, other abilities, like how to be
cautious with the money your had earned. But is seemed he was rather
optimistic about his success and the money he could earn. Then, he
borrowed money from many friends, and could not repay them. Money is
one of the main worries now with most people of middle class, and it
was also so in the times of Mozart. When Mozart was unable to repay
his friends the money he had borrowed, his many friends got colder,
perhaps a little frozen. This fact,coupled with the climatic problems
in Europe and the news from France (failure of crops in 1788) had
influenced a depressing mood in the market of entertainment that is
the music. He asked money once more, and began to travel across
Germany to see if he can win some commissions from rich patrons
elsewhere for in Vienna the mood was rather depressing. They were bad
times even for aristocrats, for they are not immune to economic
crisis. This can easily explained why Mozart was buried in a communal
tomb.

Eridanus

[Walter Bushell]

In article
<0c8d5002-749c-4845...@d8g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,

Kermit <free...@charter.net> wrote:

>
> A paper released recently on practice has reviewed past papers and
> came to the conclusion that mature masters of an art (typing, music,
> etc.) depended more on prolonged practice than native talent (genetic
> and developmental).

OTGH, it's hard to continue to practice when you have little innate
talent. A little early success can go a long way to establishing
motivation.

> However, I think that for this much talent to show
> so early (as with Mozart and his sister) the difference is genetic.
> Exposure to music and training helps, but no amount of training will
> get most kids to this level.

And without training Mozart could not have reached his level, he got a
lot of training from his father. His father was a musician of no mean
standing, for example he wrote Haydn's Toy Symphony.

>
> Of *course other factors like normal nutrition, etc. play a role but
> given normal conditions, it is pretty clear that some individuals are
> just better at some skills than most other people are, and the younger
> they are, the more likely is genetics to be the dominant difference.
>
> kermit

--
Gambling with Other People's Money is the meth of the fiscal industry.
me -- in the spirit of Karl and Groucho Marx

[Walter Bushell]

In article
<9cacdcc6-0983-4b27...@p12g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>,

Kermit <free...@charter.net> wrote:

> Oh, they can do any activity pretty well with that amount of training
> (assuming they are normal), but they won't be Mozart without the
> genes. As a 62 year-old martial artist, I have long resigned myself
> to the likelihood that I won't ever be Bruce Lee :(
>
> kermit

Hey, Bruce Lee isn't Bruce Lee just like people who see super models
at say the Russian Tea room may say they don't look like anything
special.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <vtj4m8lm1js9us2ci...@4ax.com>,

Mike Painter <mddotp...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 7 Apr 2013 15:36:11 -0700 (PDT), eridanus
> <leopoldo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omuYi2Vhgjo
> >
> >how could someone explain the performance of this boy could be explain
> >by genetics?
> >

> Normal curve.
>
> It's why sports figures get the big bucks.
>
> Add that the language the child speaks may require something akin to
> perfect pitch and that music may be considered a language and it's not
> hard to understand.
>

> I'm at the other end of the curve and carried a tune once.
> I have never been able to tell that a C played on one instrument is
> the same as that played on another.

It may not be, pitch varies from place to place.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Tuesday, 9 April 2013 05:19:01 UTC+1, James Beck wrote:
> Here's are lists of words ranked around 36,000, 46,000, 56,000,

> and 60,000 in the English corpus.

I see several there that aren't English and I don't blush not to
know them. And I'd expect that if you know "paunch" then you know
"paunchy" and vice versa. That's in the 36,000s.

I think it was comedian Alan Davies who, presented with a list of
words allegedly invented by Shakespeare, objected to "Frenchwoman".
In that spirit, what about "Harvard-educated"?

I'm thinking you made this up yourself.

[James Beck]

http://www.wordfrequency.info/files/entriesWithoutCollocates.txt

[Walter Bushell]

In article
<fa0d6514-e061-4af6...@ut5g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,

SkyEyes <skye...@cox.net> wrote:

> I taught myself to read before starting school, too, and nothing but
> trouble ever came of it. I got in trouble in First Grade for hiding
> _Treasure Island_ in my copy of _Meet Dick and Jane_ and it colored my
> entire academic experience.

Ah, yes. Dick and Jane, the most boring whitebread kiddies with boring
suburban lives, just the thing to motivate kids to read. Might be
exotic in the ghetto however. And yes, I was raised in darkest
suburbia.

[Kermit]

On 9 Apr, 04:41, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
> In article
> <0c8d5002-749c-4845-81ab-c4b2dfd77...@d8g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,

>
> �Kermit <freeh...@charter.net> wrote:
>
> > A paper released recently on practice has reviewed past papers and
> > came to the conclusion that mature masters of an art (typing, music,
> > etc.) depended more on prolonged practice than native talent (genetic
> > and developmental).
>
> OTGH, it's hard to continue to practice when you have little innate
> talent. A little early success can go a long way to establishing
> motivation.

Absolutely. Early success can motivate. There may also be something
harder to see; people who are especially good at something by nature -
art, music, dance - might find intrinsic pleasure in it which other
folks do not. And the ability or desire to practice itself may play a
role. I sometimes tell folks that I'm a natural athlete: I like to
sweat, to bleed if possible. That is, I like physical training and
practice. I have no particular innate co-ordination, flexibility,
strength, or speed. But other folks, perhaps most other folks, look at
physical exercise like I look at flossing teeth. Boring at its best.
It is not something to be proud of; it's hardly an achievement. But
it's fortunate, like having good eyes or being born wealthy, I
suppose.

>
> > However, I think that for this much talent to show
> > so early (as with Mozart and his sister) the difference is genetic.
> > Exposure to music and training helps, but no amount of training will
> > get most kids to this level.
>
> And without training Mozart could not have reached his level, he got a
> lot of training from his father. His father was a musician of no mean
> standing, for example he wrote Haydn's Toy Symphony.

Yes. And I note that his sister toured with him as a child wonder team
of two. Yet there was no place for female artists to be taken
seriously for another 150 years or more. What happened to her when she
reached adulthood? Social or familial discouragement can be a real
barrier.

>
>
>
> > Of *course other factors like normal nutrition, etc. play a role but
> > given normal conditions, it is pretty clear that some individuals are
> > just better at some skills than most other people are, and the younger
> > they are, the more likely is genetics to be the dominant difference.
>
> > kermit
>
> --
> Gambling with Other People's Money is the meth of the fiscal industry.
> �me -- in the spirit of Karl and Groucho Marx

kermit

[Kermit]

On 9 Apr, 04:49, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
> In article

> <9cacdcc6-0983-4b27-970d-44218621c...@p12g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>,

>
> �Kermit <freeh...@charter.net> wrote:
> > Oh, they can do any activity pretty well with that amount of training
> > (assuming they are normal), but they won't be Mozart without the
> > genes. As a 62 year-old martial artist, I have long �resigned myself
> > to the likelihood that I won't ever be Bruce Lee :(
>
> > kermit
>
> Hey, Bruce Lee isn't Bruce Lee just like people who see super models
> at say the Russian Tea room may say they don't look like anything
> special.

There are folks who are special, who are at the top of their game.
They are not superhuman, but they are still something special. Lee was
one such. Super models are something I don't get, but then I was never
completely socialized, and I don't get a lot of fashion, beauty,
trend, chatting, and other behaviors.

If I had put 10,000 hours into golf, I'd be pretty good, but I still
wouldn't be Tiger Woods.

>
> --
> Gambling with Other People's Money is the meth of the fiscal industry.
> �me -- in the spirit of Karl and Groucho Marx

kermit

[Kermit]

On 8 Apr, 13:56, eridanus <leopoldo.perd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> El lunes, 8 de abril de 2013 17:31:42 UTC+1, Kermit �escribi�:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 8 Apr, 04:33, Robert Carnegie <rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Monday, 8 April 2013 00:56:44 UTC+1, eridanus wrote:
>

> > > > �I was not asking for an explanation of the ability the boy is showing.

>
> > > > I was asking if someone could explain this as a virtue of genetics of
>
> > > > this boy in particular, excluding other humans boys in general.
>
> > > > For I was engage long ago in an argument with someone that said
>
> > > > Mozart was a musical genius for genetic reasons.
>
> > > > I understand that to play the piano this way, the boy should have a a
>
> > > > human brain. If the boy would had a chimp the brain he would have
>
> > > > serious problems to play the piano this well.
>

> > > Yes. �And many of us believe that chimpanzees differ from humans

>
> > > only in genetics, and, not much of genetics.
>
> > > On the other hand, chimpanzees are pretty clever at some activities.
>
> > > Googling for (chimpanzee music) gets me an article that claims that
>
> > > chimpanzees prefer music without dissonance, and another that says
>
> > > they cannot keep time.
>
> > > <http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8174000/8174534.stm>
>
> > > <http://www.escom.org/proceedings/ICMPC2000/Wed/Merker.htm>
>
> > > As for your actual point, credible alternative claims have been made
>
> > > about exceptional skills in general - that nearly anyone can acquire
>
> > > an exceptional skill if they are interested in it and work very hard
>

> > > to develop it. �(And that's assuming that this really is a little boy

>
> > > playing the piano skilfully, and not a faked report which could be
>
> > > produced in various ways.)
>
> > > There was recently a book on this topic but I've forgotten the title.
>
> > > There was something in it about a neighbourhood that had several
>
> > > young people who were extremely able at some skill, I forget what,
>

> > > table tennis or playing tuba or whatever. �I only heard about it and

>
> > > didn't read it, but my reflex reaction is that nevertheless some
>
> > > people will develop a really prodigious ability and some will be
>
> > > only competent at best.
>
> > > I think the book also referred to a recent claim in another book that
>
> > > there's a practical upper limit on useful development of practical
>
> > > or professional skills that is already evident in the length of
>
> > > approved training courses for these activities - doctor, lawyer -
>

> > > and it's the suspicious round number of 10,000 hours. �For scale,

>
> > > that's about 7 hours a day x 5 days a week x 50 weeks a year x 6 years.
>

> > > Or 10 hours x 7 days x 50 weeks x 3 years. �That's achievable for

>
> > > a four year old with very determined parents, but he probably
>
> > > can't talk.
>
> > > But I still don't believe that everyone can do anything they want
>
> > > by spending 10,000 hours at it.
>

> > Oh, they can do any activity pretty well with that amount of training
>
> > (assuming they are normal), but they won't be Mozart without the
>
> > genes. As a 62 year-old martial artist, I have long �resigned myself
>
> > to the likelihood that I won't ever be Bruce Lee :(
>
> > kermit
>

> there is more than a mere amount of hours of training to become something
> comparable to a Mozart. �It is not a simple problem of learning some
> mechanical abilities like to play a number of tunes.

Yes, that was my last point above. All people can get stronger by
lifting weights properly, but only a handful can lift 200 kg over
their heads. Same is true for mental abilities, like music. The study
found that - as a group - for professional musicians and other pros,
the amount of study mattered more for their ability than their initial
talent. But for some, talent may still mean more, and for all, their
abilities are a combination of practice and natural talent. To be at
the top of the field, one needs both.

> I see more the case
> of Mozart and others, like a serious brain washing. �That is the reason
> why this profession is a risky business. �If you invest too much effort
> into this enterprise, is necessary a sufficient number of rewards, or reinforcers; I am using the jargon of behaviorism.
>
> Then, to have a sufficient brain washing, needed to achieve the status
> of a star in this business, it is also needed that a favorable audience
> exists. �If there not exist a favorable public eager to consume this
> artistic product, the star can end his life in a mental hospital with
> a chronic depression, or he can blow off his brain with a revolver.
>
> If you watch the three videos of 58 minutes the BBC made about the
> life of Mozart you can see that Mozart passed by several crisis, that
> put him on the verge of insanity. �The mere fact that he was buried
> in a common tomb of those used for indigents, can tell you something
> about his social status when he died with 35 years of age. He had his
> moments of glory in Vienna, like a little supernova, but at 30 years
> of age, he was burn out. This is the idea I got by watching those
> videos. �I watched also some videos from the life of Beethoven and
> it looks a similar story. �I got those videos from youtube.
>
> Eridanus
>

> �t

kermit

[Robert Carnegie]

On Tuesday, 9 April 2013 17:42:49 UTC+1, James Beck wrote:
> http://www.wordfrequency.info/files/entriesWithoutCollocates.txt

/Carpaccio/ - do you see my difficulty?

[James Beck]

No. Go to a decent Italian restaurant and order it.

[Robert Carnegie]

Excuse me, I didn't catch that - what kind of resturant?

[eridanus]

El lunes, 8 de abril de 2013 17:31:54 UTC+1, Kermit escribi�:
> On 8 Apr, 02:18, eridanus <leopoldo.perd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

>
> > I was not arguing anything. �Simply put, some people pretend than a boy
> > like this one is a rare phenomenon of genetics, like a boy that is born
> > with two heads, a dwarf, or a mental retarded. �I was teasing someone to
> > present a reasoned argument, that the ability of this boy is due to a
> > peculiar structure of his genes, like in the case of a mental retarded,
> > or an autistic. �Or if someone else can say the boy is a normal boy, and
> > its behavioral attitude is due to a carefully training.
> > Eridanus

>
> A paper released recently on practice has reviewed past papers and
> came to the conclusion that mature masters of an art (typing, music,
> etc.) depended more on prolonged practice than native talent (genetic

> and developmental). However, I think that for this much talent to show

> so early (as with Mozart and his sister) the difference is genetic.

A written paper is a written paper, and you can not enthrone an a paper
to make it a dogma. Then, any written paper's content is always arguable.

> Exposure to music and training helps, but no amount of training will
> get most kids to this level.
>

> Of *course other factors like normal nutrition, etc. play a role but
> given normal conditions, it is pretty clear that some individuals are
> just better at some skills than most other people are, and the younger
> they are, the more likely is genetics to be the dominant difference.

Ok, Kermit. You must know a lot to determine this with assurance.

Let me present a humble consideration. We can infer on the genes anything
we fancy. I am most in favor of attributing the influence of the genes
to some clear physical conditions, like skin color, hight, strength,
physical appearance, size of his penis, thickness of his lips, propensity
to be thin or fat, etc. Some other hidden qualities, like the immune system,
the blood group, the haplogroup and even the DNA itself are genetic in its
origins. Being blind, or deaf, mental retarded, or other conditions, can
also be due to our genes. But being more or less intelligent, more or less
musical, more or less warrior like, is perhaps a cultural condition. I do
think that a person plays more or less well at chess, because he has been
playing a lot since childhood. The most a player plays chess the most likely
is that he plays better. The same for the music.

As for the argument, perhaps a silly argument, that if two men had been
playing about the same amount of time, and one is much better than the
other the difference is explained by the genes... it seems a little hard
to swallow.
To start with this argument, we have several unknown variables.
a) How can we determine that two persons we are comparing had trained
the same amount of time.
b) How we can determined that the quality of the training was comparable.
One could had been trained by a bad coach and the other by a good coach.
There cannot be two coaches of equal competence.
c) How we can determine if some genes participate in a differential quality.

With this point I am asking, if some genes permit you to learn to play well
the piano, but do not permit you to become a genial pianist and compositor.

Then, I am thinking it is more plausible to postulate the quality of the
teaching can explain both the ordinary pianist and the genial one.

I do not see any problem to this postulate.

But if we a tribute this difference it means, it must exist some genes
that determine, not the ordinary capacity to learn, but the condition
of becoming a genius as well. Then, it should exist genes to become a
chess champ, a Marathon champ, a Mozart champ, a Picasso champ, a
Pavarotti champ, a Newton champ, and so on.

My theory does not postulate the need of special genes to become a champ.
It only needs that the person had not any special impediment to learn due
to genetic defects. Then you can had some genetic defects with your heart
that impedes you to become an athlete, but not a teacher of physics.
Mozart, to put an example was often ill as a child, and later on as an
adult. He had a weak immune system that made them often ill with flue,
and he die at 35 years of age, that do not tell much about some
favorable genes to be a strong lad working hard in a farm cultivating
potatoes. It is apparent also that his genes were not good to become
a soldier that needs more physical strength, and a strong immune system.

Then what had been the cause of the differences between Mozart and his
elder sister Mary Anne? Both had a musician father. Since long ago,
women had been complaining about the different attentions between boys
and girls at home. I do no think this idea was unfounded. I believe
it was real. I can see that father Leopold, taught his daughter to play,
both for entertainment, and because it was "posh" to have a daughter
educated and able to play the clavichord nicely. Even to be able to sing
nicely was a sign of status and good education. Then, while teaching
music to his first daughter, Leopold was not doing anything unusual.
But when the first son was born, all this fantasies of becoming a great
musician and free of his own servitude could become a reality in his his
first son. Then, he invested heavily on him, to make him a great musician
that would be free, and not a salaried servant to a prince or an
archbishop as he was. Then, with the experienced earned when he was
teaching his daughter he was much better prepared to teach the best to
his son. If master Leopold would had been loaded with the ordinary defects
that most musicians were loaded as teachers, his son Amadeus would not
had been the great musician he become. He would had in part been hating
the music and the eternal exercises, as some boys I had knew. I had met
a few boys that were hating to play the piano, and the eternal time they
had to expend playing to barely pass the official examinations.

But if you train well the child, he does not tire of playing. He does
not tire of playing because all children as hungry for praises. If you
given them enough praises for playing chess, or tennis, or the piano,
or for doing a lot of maths, for being hungry to learn more and more
of those silly matters written in the books of science... then you are
creating something bigger than ordinary people that barely want to work.

This would be a particular case of a very good conditioning. Then, the
elusive difference is not some hidden genes no one had yet determined, but
the ordinary process of education, that can be better or worse.

Some conditions are special. That is the conclusion I got from what I read
about the life of Richard Feynmann. In the Jewish families of middle class
exist some verbal exercises that are meant to develop intelligence. The
main carrier of intelligence I believe resides in language. You can have
a reach life at home if exist a culture of teasing the intelligence with
puzzles and riddles. The most complex and evolved are those exercises
the most self-esteem they built in the boy. This could be an simple
explanation for the abundance of Jewish scientist as a ratio, compared to
other races, or cultures. I am not a Jew, and I am not doing any propaganda
about the Jews. Then, some other conditions are also necessary. During
the first half of 19 century, Jews in Europe could not go to official
schools of the Christians, unless they had converted to Christianity.
The liberals changed this in some parts of Germany, and the Jew children
could assist to public schools; a little later to technical schools, but
not to Universities. In the previous years to this liberal politics,
the Jews cultivated at home the verbal intelligence. It was necessary a
lot of verbal intelligence and memory to become a rabbi. If you had not
money being a rabbi was the best thing you could do to have a social
rank. Then, they invented those exercises to develop a verbal
intelligence and to have a good memory. When the Jew children entered in
the Christian public schools of Germany, it was not yet an universal school,
this Jew children was succeeding very easily. They were training
very well at home at verbal intelligence. To be a good student is also
to some degree needed to have a verbal intelligence. You needed to
understand the language very well, and to have good memory. The children
of Jews of middle class had this sort of knowledge. But it was even worse.
If you were a Jew child in those times, you knew that it was too easy to
reject you for not being an excellent student. Many teachers were
expecting this opportunity to chase a bad Jew student out for not passing
the examinations. Then, if you were a Jew you had the clear knowledge
that you have to study harder than any Christian "goys". Then this is how started the excellence of Jew people in academy and sciences.
Then, it is not a question of genes, for there exist their own quote
of morons among the Jews.

Eridanus

[Greg Guarino]

On 4/8/2013 7:33 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:

> chimpanzees prefer music without dissonance, and [...]
> they cannot keep time.

As a musician, I can vouch for the fact that both of these
characteristics put them well within the mainstream of humans I have
encountered.

[eridanus]

El martes, 9 de abril de 2013 21:17:38 UTC+1, Greg Guarino escribi�:

many ordinary people, me included, feel that dissonances suck.
I had been trying to enjoy some works of Stravinsky and even
his works have "a something" his dissonances are excessive for me.
I think this dissonance trick has something to do with the aspect
of the "unexpected" or the "shocking" that was so common in abstract
art. I can accept that "new things" are great in art, even in music,
since we can get tired of the too often experienced. I mean, there
exist a concept in the theory of behavior that tells "reinforcers
can get worn". In other words, sometimes I put a disk in the player
of the car, and can be hearing the same opera for weeks or months.
Well, after a time you get tired of hearing the same opera. And you
need not only to change the disc, but to change also the author, or
whatever. You can get tired of hearing often the same thing. In this
sense, one of the virtues of Mozart in his time was that his music
"was different". Something like this occurred later with Beethoven,
and later with others. As the styles were changing, listeners were
also changing. I am now remembering my brother in law that love pop
music that I considered trash. One day, he was trying to convince me
of the excellence of the music he liked. Then, he said, "wait a moment;
listen this." he put a disc on a player, and as he hears a few seconds,
he said, "not. It is not this. Listen this one." He put another
disc on the player and then he said, "It's not this one. Wait a moment."
Then he was putting several discs on the player and saying "it's not this
one." Then, I told him, "forget about it. There is not way I ever can
love this music."

Sometimes I think, that the feeling the music gives us is the result of
an operant conditioned. Then, if you had not been conditioned pleasantly
by hearing music, it does not mean anything. I was doing the military
service in Spanish Western Sahara. After I was licensed I remained there
for a time working. In Sundays I went alone walking several miles on the
desert and turned back. I loved to walk alone in the desert for some
unexplained reasons. One day I was walking on the desert with some
portable record player. It worked on batteries. About at noon, I saw a
tent in the desert and I greeted two men that were there resting. They
had a land rover parked nearby. I saluted them in Arabic, for I could
speak a little Arabic. The older man invited to tea. I sat there at the
shade of the tent. Then, the man asked me what I had in that box. I
could not explain in Arabic, it is a record player, but I showed them,
the machine and some records. What does this thing, asked the older man
in French. While a young girl of 8 to 9 years prepared the tea, I showed
them what was able to do that box. I put a record with a suit of Peer Gynt
and it started the music. I tried to see what feeling their faces showed.
But it looked as if they do not understood or have any feeling with this
music. Then, in the part that says, Peer Gynt in the ling of the mountain
or something like this. A tuba made grave prolonged grave sound. Then both
men and even the little girl smiled, for this music had recorded the
sound of beautiful strong and grave fart. In this moment, I understood
that music can have different meanings, depending on the cultural
experience of each one. I was also smiling for I understood at once the
joke. The damned box was making the pretty fart. Technology was great.

Then we took the teat, that was very hot as is customary and scented
with some leaves of fresh mint. Then, as my knowledge of Arabic was
limited, we were talking a little in French for they came from a part
that was a French protectorate. We were talking like friends for a while
and the younger man told me that he was married, and that the girl was
his wife. I could not believe, but he showed me to prove it some finger scratches in his chest, arms, and even thighs that were supposedly made
by his young wife. Then, I understood that exists something like a
"cultural relativism". All this time the younger man showed me the his
marital scratches, the little girl was smiling naughtily. And the older
man that was the father of the younger man, was also smiling as
reassuring me that his son was telling the truth.

Well, I was happy this day with this experience.

Eridanus

[Earle Jones]

In article
<fa0d6514-e061-4af6...@ut5g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,
SkyEyes <skye...@cox.net> wrote:

*
More OT:

My older sister (she was 12 when I was born) had a congenital hearing
defect and had to attend special schools, etc.

She took an interest in teaching me and my twin sister to read when we
were about three or four years old. I remember that my job was to go
outside and get the Birmingham News, bring it in to my Mom and read her
the headlines. I pronounced 'democracy' accented on the third syllable!

Learning to read early was a total positive situation for me. On my
first day in school (no kindergarten) they stuck me in the second grade.
I think I could have gone on to the third grade, but my parents thought
at the age of six, it would not be a good idea.

I also remember, when I began to be able to add and subtract a few
numbers, trying to figure out how old I would be to live to see the year
2,000. I wrote down 2,000 and my birth year, 1931, and, with a bit of
help, subtracted. I would have to live 69 years! No way! Well, I have
now lived 82 years (tomorrow) and I'm still learning!

earle
*

[Earle Jones]

In article
<46c3d07f-9d3a-4988...@ut5g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,

*
I knew a guy, viola player, who owned a very expensive instrument. He
had to run some errands in San Francisco and, being in a hurry, left his
viola on the back seat of his car.

He took care of his business, hurried back to his car and noticed that
one of the windows had been bashed in. Shocked, he looked into the back
seat.

He saw two violas.

earle
*

[Michael Siemon]

In article
<earle.jones-D36E...@c-131-121-196-216.gonavy.usna.edu>,

That is usually told as an accordion joke, but of course in American
culture, accordions/banjos/violas are mostly interchangeable in jokes.

[Walter Bushell]

In article
<earle.jones-D36E...@c-131-121-196-216.gonavy.usna.edu>,
Earle Jones <earle...@comcast.net> wrote:

I've heard the same joke about squash in rural New England.

[jillery]

Congratulations. That's one way to stay young.

[James Beck]

On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 13:03:47 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie

<rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, 9 April 2013 20:35:46 UTC+1, James Beck wrote:
>> On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 12:18:56 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
>> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tuesday, 9 April 2013 17:42:49 UTC+1, James Beck wrote:
>> >> http://www.wordfrequency.info/files/entriesWithoutCollocates.txt
>> >
>> >/Carpaccio/ - do you see my difficulty?
>>
>> No. Go to a decent Italian restaurant and order it.
>
>Excuse me, I didn't catch that - what kind of resturant?

Ask for a side order of spaghetti at the same time. Have a nice order
of antipasto too, and don't forget the grissini. Maybe gelato and
cappuccino for dessert. It's possible that your palate runs more to
macaroni and cheese. A little extra parmesan hits the spot. Feel free
to substitute.

Which part of that isn't in English?

[eridanus]

El mi�rcoles, 10 de abril de 2013 00:28:33 UTC+1, Earle Jones escribi�:

I was in primary school and the teacher was explaining the case of comet
Halley. He said the comet comes back each 75 years, then it will soon
come back again. The children was enthusiastic, when will it come back?It would come back in the year 1986. All the kids were disappointed, they
were expecting the comet to come back in a few days. Some say, this is
too late. We will not being alive by them. Then the teacher told the kids,
you will be able to watch it, you will be only 49 years old. This age
looked a very remote age for us all. Nobody was figuring to be alive
longer than a few years more.

Eridanus

[eridanus]

El mi�rcoles, 10 de abril de 2013 00:28:33 UTC+1, Earle Jones escribi�:

I remember the movie 2001: A Space Odyssey. My children were 7 and 13
years old. I went to see this film with them. 2001 was so remote,
that it was easy to believe we would have bases in the moon to be mining
something there. Travels to Mars would be as easy as to eat peanuts.
But this was not our fault in reasoning. Our mind had been misled by
people writing nonsense about space travel being a trivial thing, like
doing some 100 miles with a car to visit your granny that was ill.

Eridanus

[Barba]

Well... As James Nicoll said:

The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English
is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on
occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them
unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.

So I suppose it's all in English. But I am Italian so I slightly resent
that....

B

[eridanus]

El mi�rcoles, 10 de abril de 2013 10:22:56 UTC+1, Barba escribi�:

there does not exist any pure language. Not only because languages
are constantly evolving, but because there is constant trade of goods
and words and ideas among nations. All romance languages, by example
are creole languages based on Latin, incorporating local words
and adopting words from other conquerors that came later to the place.

Eridanus

[Barba]

True, but English is unique as the borrowed word are considered, as you have
seen above, english words. In italian we use a lot of borrowed words but they
are not considered part of italian, in french they are even considered
"illegal".

B

[Robert Carnegie]

On Wednesday, 10 April 2013 03:40:39 UTC+1, James Beck wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 13:03:47 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> > /Carpaccio/ - do you see my difficulty?
>

> Ask for a side order of spaghetti at the same time. Have a nice
> order of antipasto too, and don't forget the grissini. Maybe gelato
> and cappuccino for dessert. It's possible that your palate runs more
> to macaroni and cheese. A little extra parmesan hits the spot.
> Feel free to substitute. Which part of that isn't in English?

In an Italian restaurant, /nothing/ is in English. That's kind of
the point of going there. "Cheese" is English, and I guess "parmesan"
is English because in an Italian dictionary online it comes out as
"formaggio parmigiano", but spaghetti is noodles (from "Nudel"
in German) and I don't know what a lot of the other stuff even is.

I'm not happy about "corpus", in fact. Anything whose plural isn't
a decent English one isn't properly English - like "spaghetti" -
and in this case "corpora". I'm not saying that smart people
/shouldn't/ know words that aren't in English. But they are not.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Wednesday, 10 April 2013 10:04:33 UTC+1, eridanus wrote:
> * I was in primary school and the teacher was explaining the case of
> comet Halley. He said the comet comes back each 75 years, then it will
> soon come back again. The children was enthusiastic, when will it

> come back? It would come back in the year 1986. All the kids were

> disappointed, they were expecting the comet to come back in a few days.
> Some say, this is too late. We will not being alive by them. Then the
> teacher told the kids, you will be able to watch it, you will be only
> 49 years old. This age looked a very remote age for us all. Nobody
> was figuring to be alive longer than a few years more. Eridanus

Anxious days in Guernica.

The amateur astronomer - but professional broadcaster - Sir Patrick Moore
had a habit that came to bother me, of telling his audience on various
astronomical occasions, including the appearance of Halley's Comet
in '86, that he certainly would be dead before this thing happened again.
It turns out that he was right - he passed away last December -
but still it seemed - what to say - pessimistic? or self-centred?

[James Beck]

On 10 Apr 2013 09:22:56 GMT, Barba <snotana...@notmail.invalid>
wrote:

The US has about 20 million Italian Americans. When you were
colonizing us, did you think those people would leave their words
behind? And that's only the recent history. What right does a
conquerer have to complain about being admired and emulated by the
subjugated? It's not our fault that you kept Berlusconi and gave us
scientists, engineers, writers, scholars, and last but not least, good
cooks. ;>)

[Barba]

That's a low blow, dude... really. :-|

B

[Robert Carnegie]

On Wednesday, 10 April 2013 14:41:16 UTC+1, James Beck wrote:
> The US has about 20 million Italian Americans. When you were
> colonizing us, did you think those people would leave their words
> behind? And that's only the recent history. What right does
> a conquerer have to complain about being admired and emulated
> by the subjugated? It's not our fault that you kept Berlusconi
> and gave us scientists, engineers, writers, scholars, and last
> but not least, good cooks. ;>)

On the other hand, do we count Al Capone, John Gotti, and Don Corleone? ;-)

(American; American; fictional. But - )

[Mark Isaak]

On 4/9/13 4:28 PM, Earle Jones wrote:
> [...]

> I also remember, when I began to be able to add and subtract a few
> numbers, trying to figure out how old I would be to live to see the year
> 2,000. I wrote down 2,000 and my birth year, 1931, and, with a bit of
> help, subtracted. I would have to live 69 years! No way! Well, I have
> now lived 82 years (tomorrow) and I'm still learning!

Happy birthday!

--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) curioustaxonomy (dot) net
"It is certain, from experience, that the smallest grain of natural
honesty and benevolence has more effect on men's conduct, than the most
pompous views suggested by theological theories and systems." - D. Hume

[eridanus]

El mi�rcoles, 10 de abril de 2013 11:08:51 UTC+1, Barba escribi�:

it is a question of attitude. In Italiano there is a lot of words from
German origins, specially in words related to the military life and,
and also from French and other languages. But if the words are old enough
people consider they are Italian words. The same occurs with the French
and other languages, like Spanish or Portuguese. Only a few purist of
the language are worried by the arrival of new words. It is a form
of linguistic chauvinism. A French word that you can find probably in
Japanese or even in Chinese. I had met in French and in German the word
"gongorism". I had find this word also in English, and you probably can
find it in text written in Italian. Gongora was an extremely pedantic
Spanish poet. Such was the exaggeration of his pedantry that his verses
gave to Europe the word "gongorism".

Eridanus

[jillery]

more precisely, fictionalized.

[eridanus]

El mi�rcoles, 10 de abril de 2013 14:15:23 UTC+1, Robert Carnegie escribi�:

Oh, dear, Robert. Do not be so delicate.

The English language was not made by Shakespeare. The English language
is a mixture of all the ways it is spoken. Some people
speak a sort of English, and other people speaks another. Depending
on which ere place do you are or where have you been. While speaking,
or writing some people is expressing their own status as well, to show
they are not common folk, but a sort of member of an elite. Then
the enlightened gentlemen used some words of French or German, to show
they were enlightened. The aristocrats of the "grand tour" by Italy
in the 18 century, were using some words of Italian, and mentioned the
names of some Renaissance Italian artists, and painters, to show that
they were not common folks, but gentlemen that were touring Italy. It
cost a lot of money such a tour. I remember to read something written
by Victorian gentlemen, and they had imported words from the India, or
from China, from Shanghai or Hong Kong, probably. Those stories, while
translated to Spanish contained these Indian or Chinese words.

Then, I was not pissed off by reading this Indian words in stories
translated from English to Spanish. In a way, I was very happy reading
this, for it gave me a vision of the world that I could not have ever
by reading classic Spanish literature. Then, in a way, we are all a
sort of cultural mongrels. We had learned a little bit from here and
a little bit from there. If we had remained in a permanent state of
virginal purity all our lives, we would had not relished our
wallowing in the mud of countless lusty and sinful copulations.
It is a metaphor, of course. I had not been that lucky.

Eridanus

[Walter Bushell]

In article <37bc9244-e917-4679...@googlegroups.com>,

eridanus <leopoldo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> many ordinary people, me included, feel that dissonances suck.

Hey, music without dissonance is really boring, consider all the
dissonance in J. S. Bach, for example.

I dislike the music of, for example, Stevie Wonder, because he doesn't
use any that I can catch.

[Steven L.]

On 4/8/2013 7:33 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:

> On Monday, 8 April 2013 00:56:44 UTC+1, eridanus wrote:
>> I was not asking for an explanation of the ability the boy is showing.
>> I was asking if someone could explain this as a virtue of genetics of
>> this boy in particular, excluding other humans boys in general.
>> For I was engage long ago in an argument with someone that said
>> Mozart was a musical genius for genetic reasons.
>>
>> I understand that to play the piano this way, the boy should have a a
>> human brain. If the boy would had a chimp the brain he would have
>> serious problems to play the piano this well.
>
> Yes. And many of us believe that chimpanzees differ from humans
> only in genetics, and, not much of genetics.
>
> On the other hand, chimpanzees are pretty clever at some activities.
>
> Googling for (chimpanzee music) gets me an article that claims that
> chimpanzees prefer music without dissonance, and another that says
> they cannot keep time.
> <http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8174000/8174534.stm>
> <http://www.escom.org/proceedings/ICMPC2000/Wed/Merker.htm>

The more intelligent species of birds can keep time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7IZmRnAo6s

But why the human brain evolved to appreciate music at all, I don't
understand.

You don't have to compose concertos to hunt woolly mammoths.



--
Steven L.

[eridanus]

El mi�rcoles, 10 de abril de 2013 22:18:16 UTC+1, Walter Bushell escribi�:

I was not ever aware that Bach music had dissonances.
Can sky eyes tell us something about this point?

Eridanus

[Burkhard]

On Apr 10, 11:31�pm, eridanus <leopoldo.perd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> El mi�rcoles, 10 de abril de 2013 22:18:16 UTC+1, Walter Bushell �escribi�:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <37bc9244-e917-4679...@googlegroups.com>,
>

> > �eridanus <leopoldo.perd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > many ordinary people, me included, feel that dissonances suck.
>
> > Hey, music without dissonance is really boring, consider all the
>
> > dissonance in J. S. Bach, for example.
>
> > I dislike the music of, for example, Stevie Wonder, because he doesn't
>
> > use any that I can catch.
>
> > --
>
> > Gambling with Other People's Money is the meth of the fiscal industry.
>
> > �me -- in the spirit of Karl and Groucho Marx
>
> I was not ever aware that Bach music had dissonances.
> Can sky eyes tell us something about this point?
>
> Eridanus

The most famous example surely is the Toccata and Fugue in D minor,
with the diminished seventh chord over a tonic pedal.

A very good account about dissonance in Bach in general is here, but
it might be behind a paywall for you
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/41054346?uid=3738032&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21102123604937

He used the tritonus quite extensively - and there was even
theological debate about this, with the modernisers following Luther
all in favour, the Calvinists strictly opposed

[eridanus]

El mi�rcoles, 10 de abril de 2013 22:27:23 UTC+1, Steven L. escribi�:

I have a theory about the music. It is a personal theory, then I am
not sure if anyone had presented a similar one.

There is a moment in the life of humans, that they have a sort period
of rest and relaxation. One of the things that can be done in such
periods is drawing something, not only on walls or in caverns, but
even on the floor. They can carve something, because it causes some
feeling of... something new. Humans had to have a sort of feeling
for the unusual. This must be the root of the invention, or perhaps
the conservation of the fire, and other inventions, like the
observation of how some stones can break and show a blade with a sharp
age. Then, this amazement, or this attention to the "new" is on the
root of many rare inventions, like the sling, or the bow and the arrows,
the thrower of a spear at a greater distance that simply throwing it
by hand, etc. I had seen a video of San people of Kalahari making sounds
with a tendon from an animal. The tendon works as a string in a common
string musical instrument. He ties the string on a toe of his leg, and
the other end is tight on his teeth. Then, they had like a string with
more or less tension, By plucking the string they made a sound, that
resonates in the cavity of his mouth. Changing the tension of the string
resonates in different musical notes. My theory considers that humans
had some interest, some affinity for "new things", new images, sounds, etc
Perhaps, for primitive humans have a a great capacity for memory. And
somewhat, it exists some pleasant effect in memorizing things, even if
they are not useful for any apparent purpose. I had experience, that we
love a melody that can easily be memorized. Just imagine a computer that
were composing a melody based on aleatory notes, based on a pseudo-random
algorithm. I am sure it would not be pleasant to our minds, for being
random is not possible to memorize. But on the other hand, there can be
considered other question that reinforces this love for novel stimuli.
We are able to take care of these novelty stimuli when we are in a state
of relaxation without any stress at all. We have to be satiated, not
hungry; we have to be rested, not tired. We have to be in a situation
without alarms of predators, or not suffering of extreme cold or heat.
For when we are alarmed, or stressed, or hungry, or tired, or in panic,
feeling too hot, or a freezing cold, our brain is not in mood for
pleasantries and discoveries. Not even for musics or dancing. Then,
in some weird movements like in a dancing can be "interesting", or
when watching a paint of an animal, or hearing some weird sound, is
possible when that such generate a pleasant feeling, but only in absence
of stress. Here comes what I call "conditioned stimuli". The dog of
Paulov salivated when he heard the bell, that he learned it meant,
"here comes the food". In a similar situation, music is conditioned
by the circumstances we are when we hear it. But it can be conditioned
by the pleasant circumstances, or by the bad. If we are listening a
municipal band playing some pieces of music on a Sunday morning, while
we are caressing the ass of our sweat heart, this music becomes
pleasant conditioned. But it can be otherwise. Just imagine a nightmare
world, in which from time to time you have to assist to the flogging
of some people, and perhaps you are one of those to be flogged. While
you are waiting to be flogged, some loudspeakers are playing the 5th
symphony of Beethoven. Besides the you can here the cracking of the
flog and moaning of pain of the penitent. You know by previous
experience that a session of flogging is close to an agony of pain.
Then, even if you are only waiting your turn, you can hear both the
music and the cries of pain of the one is being flogged at this moment.
Then, an operant conditioning is occurring. A music that could had been
indifferent is now being "aversive conditioned". It is obvious the
association it has with the flogging. When you will be being flogged
you would be barely aware of this music, for the stress is so extreme
when you are being flogged that is impossible to be aware of the music.

You see here different examples of conditioning. One is a pleasant
conditioning and the other an aversive conditioning.
I will tell you an example more real of aversive conditioning of the
classical music. In times of the dictatorship of Franco, the holy week
was dominated by religious processions and dramatic preaches of the
catholic priest trying to make people feel the drama of the death of
Jesus. In this week, the radios only emitted classical music. Then,
all the drama of the passion of Christ was associated with classical
music, and made of it an aversive conditioning. I discovered this when
I was a short period of time living with an aunt. I had a little record
player and used to put classical music. My aunt was telling me "shut
this music off!!" I asked my aunt why she did not like it. And she
told me, "this music made me sad. For it makes me recall the holy week,
and the holy Friday. In this day, Jesus died in the cross, and all
the radios put this sort of music." That was true.
Then, to most people, classical music is the music of "educated people"
and the music of aristocrats, and authorities. When some important
politician dies or a dictator, the radios put for a day or two classical
music. The connexion could not be more obvious. Most of the people
associate the popular music dancing, and perspectives of founding a
partner for a bedding, etc. Then, this music is conditioned by pleasant
expectations.

But as I put it before, the conditioning of the music and other activities
started some hundred thousand years ago, in times of plenty and relax.

Just try to imagine the invention of agriculture, or the invention of
domesticating animals for herding. This two moments would had not been
possible in periods of scarcity and environmental stress.

I think that my theory makes some sense.
Any one can argument against it; of course.

Eridanus

[eridanus]

El jueves, 11 de abril de 2013 00:05:32 UTC+1, Burkhard escribi�:

I had listened the toccata several times and I was aware of the
contra-punt but not of any dissonances. I mean, dissonances like
we can hear in the Rite of Spring of Stravinsky. Here is was
the first time I was aware of what was a dissonance. I am not a
musician and I never was interested in technical comments of music.

Eridanus

[Michael Siemon]

In article
<199c11f7-725f-4d71...@b3g2000vbo.googlegroups.com>,

A note to Eridanus: you can't have a decent cadence without a progression
involving a release of tension -- i.e., dissonance. "Music" without (an
appropriate to its style) dissonance is insipid and boring. Bach
was a master, of course... (also Stravinsky, in a rather different
style! :-))

[Walter Bushell]

In article <48058f3b-4f22-4eaa...@googlegroups.com>,
eridanus <leopoldo...@gmail.com> wrote:

<http://whybach.crosstownbooks.com/c2_flash/index.php>

or for an example

<http://whybach.crosstownbooks.com/c2_flash/passion3/passion3.html>

It's not Beethoven's Large Fugue for String Quartet #133, but is
enough will serve.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <5817d157-7644-4219...@googlegroups.com>,
eridanus <leopoldo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> El jueves, 11 de abril de 2013 00:05:32 UTC+1, Burkhard escribió:
> > On Apr 10, 11:31 pm, eridanus <leopoldo.perd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >

> > > El miércoles, 10 de abril de 2013 22:18:16 UTC+1, Walter Bushell
> > >  escribió:

A little knowledge of musical theory does help in appreciation. At
some point one becomes aware of how composers get there affects. Then
musicianship become a matter of choosing what effects in what sequence
to use. This makes Hayden a great composer to study because you can
watch him develop, step by step as compared to Mozart who sprang full
grown from the head of Athena, or perhaps Dionysus.

[jillery]

My impression is music appreciation is a spandrel, a consequence of
greater intelligence generally, and abstract reasoning specifically.

[James Beck]

You get some bad with the good, but they seem to have sent us their
lamest mobsters. We also got stuck with Ken Cuccinelli, though. He
thinks you'll go to hell for getting a little head.

[eridanus]

El jueves, 11 de abril de 2013 01:59:10 UTC+1, Michael Siemon escribi�:

you can be right on technical grounds that I cannot understand.
Then, I like Bach all right. But I cannot listen any of his works
more than half an hour. But Stravinsky, by example, even it has
something interesting, I feel it has, I tired of listening him
in just ten minutes or so. But I am not a real fan of music. I
started to get interest for the music being more than 30 years old.
My family, of very modest means and education, had not any interest
for the music, or the books. I enter into the realm of books and
classical music as a result of being a very lonely person, with scant
social abilities. So, I �must had felt that if I do not shared the
the taste as the common folk it was for I was different. In this sense
I was the first person in the family that read books. But music was
totally out of my budget. I never went to a theater, or to a concert.
But as I was becoming an adult, I saw a movie about the life of
Tchaikovsky, just to see what was this about. I loved the music. Then
perhaps it started my interest for classical music.
It is recently that I had been collecting music from youtube, for I never
had been into the business of buying discs. So, in a way, I am not only
an ignorant in regard to music, but in many other questions as well.

Eridanus

[eridanus]

El jueves, 11 de abril de 2013 02:57:17 UTC+1, Walter Bushell escribi�:

> In article <5817d157-7644-4219...@googlegroups.com>,
>
> eridanus <leopoldo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>

> > El jueves, 11 de abril de 2013 00:05:32 UTC+1, Burkhard escribi�:

>
> > > On Apr 10, 11:31�pm, eridanus <leopoldo.perd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >
>

> > > > El mi�rcoles, 10 de abril de 2013 22:18:16 UTC+1, Walter Bushell
>
> > > > �escribi�:

Beautiful phrase, he came already grown from the head of Athena or
perhaps Dionysus.

Perfect phrase. You do not mentioned Apollo, for he was a god less...
less festive. Then, your hesitation between Athena and Dionysus,
invokes both aspect of Mozart's music; the wisdom and the
divertimento, the playfulness of his music. Perhaps as he matured, his
music was becoming more dramatic and serious. But I am not an expert
that could comment on this with assurance.

Eridanus

[Ron O]

My first guess is that music appreciation is a side consequence of
selection for our ability to interpret sound to aid our survival.
Listening and sound interpretation gets associated with pleasure and
reward systems because it was important to survival in a hunter
gatherer or more likely a previous lifestyle or styles of our
ancestors. You throw in a complex brain development and mess ups with
unexpected consequences occur.

Ron Okimoto

[Burkhard]

On 11 Apr, 12:02, eridanus <leopoldo.perd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> El jueves, 11 de abril de 2013 02:57:17 UTC+1, Walter Bushell �escribi :
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <5817d157-7644-4219...@googlegroups.com>,
>

> > �eridanus <leopoldo.perd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > El jueves, 11 de abril de 2013 00:05:32 UTC+1, Burkhard �escribi :
>
> > > > On Apr 10, 11:31 pm, eridanus <leopoldo.perd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > El mi rcoles, 10 de abril de 2013 22:18:16 UTC+1, Walter Bushell
>
> > > > > escribi :
>
> > > > > > In article <37bc9244-e917-4679...@googlegroups.com>,
>
> > > > > > eridanus <leopoldo.perd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > many ordinary people, me included, feel that dissonances suck.
>
> > > > > > Hey, music without dissonance is really boring, consider all the
>
> > > > > > dissonance in J. S. Bach, for example.
>
> > > > > > I dislike the music of, for example, Stevie Wonder, because he doesn't
>
> > > > > > use any that I can catch.
>
> > > > > > --
>
> > > > > > Gambling with Other People's Money is the meth of the fiscal industry.
>
> > > > > > me -- in the spirit of Karl and Groucho Marx
>
> > > > > I was not ever aware that Bach music had dissonances.
>
> > > > > Can sky eyes tell us something about this point?
>
> > > > > Eridanus
>
> > > > The most famous example surely is the �Toccata and Fugue in D minor,
>
> > > > with the diminished seventh chord over a tonic pedal.
>
> > > > A very good account about dissonance in Bach in general �is here, but
>
> > > > it might be behind a paywall for you
>

> > > >http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/41054346?uid=3738032&uid=2129&u...

>
> > > > d=70&uid=4&sid=21102123604937
>
> > > > He used the tritonus quite extensively - and there was even
>
> > > > theological debate about this, with the modernisers following Luther
>
> > > > all in favour, the Calvinists strictly opposed
>
> > > I had listened the toccata several times and I was aware of the
>
> > > contra-punt but not of any dissonances. I mean, dissonances like
>
> > > we can hear in the Rite of Spring of Stravinsky. �Here is was
>
> > > the first time I was aware of what was a dissonance. �I am not a
>
> > > musician and I never was interested in technical comments of music.
>
> > > Eridanus
>
> > A little knowledge of musical theory does help in appreciation. At
>
> > some point one becomes aware of how composers get there affects. Then
>
> > musicianship become a matter of choosing what effects in what sequence
>
> > to use. This makes Hayden a great composer to study because you can
>
> > watch him develop, step by step as compared to Mozart who sprang full
>
> > grown from the head of Athena, or perhaps Dionysus.
>
> Beautiful phrase, he came already grown from the head of Athena or
> perhaps Dionysus.
>
> Perfect phrase. You do not mentioned Apollo, for he was a god less...
> less festive.

You think so? There were several festivals for him, including the
quite important Carnea in Sparta, then the three day Hyacinthia in
honour of his lover, the Delia, the Pyanopsia (more about food - but
of a kind t makes its own type of music afterwards :o)) and a couple
of others. And he wasn't called Apollo Musagetes for nothing either.
He was of course the master of the lyre, which Hermes made for him as
payment for cattle, and once bested Pan in a competition who the best
player was. And of course he also bested Marsyas, though with a bit of
cheating, and it did not end at all well for Marsyas...



�Then, your hesitation between Athena and Dionysus,

[eridanus]

El jueves, 11 de abril de 2013 12:05:54 UTC+1, Ron O escribi�:

oh, Ron. Many animals can have a fine ear and this do not develop into
an appreciation of music. But our interest for "not profitable"
activities or observations, because there is some pleasure involved
in taking attention to them, put humans in the path of many discoveries,
like keep care of a fire, or even inventing a way to make it. The
pleasure of discovering new ways to break flint stones to make tools,
the invention of some form of percussion, or singing, etc. were a result
of humans having some moments of relax in which to enjoy new ideas,
effects, or artifacts. Somewhere in the Caucasus, or the Balcans, it
had been discovered a sort of bone flute in a cavern that was habited
by humans some 20 thousand years ago.
Theres is some natural pleasure in "novelties"; either new techniques,
or new forms of music, or paintings. Novelties had been a driver for
science and technologies. The great masters of ancient civilizations
were favoring technicians, artists and people with stored words from
ancient wisdom the past times.

The novel forms of arguing presented by Plato or Aristotle not only
impressed ancient Greeks, but Romans as well, some centuries later. So
huge was the success of this two philosophers that their ideas were
very respected for nearly 2,000 years.

Eridanus

[eridanus]

El jueves, 11 de abril de 2013 12:23:00 UTC+1, Burkhard escribi�:

it is evident that you are much better informed about Apollo than I was.
I only read a little story about Hyacinthus killed by a disc thrown by
Apollo.
Eridanus

[wiki trix]

I agree. That could be true.

[jillery]

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 04:05:54 -0700 (PDT), Ron O <roki...@cox.net>
wrote:

Interesting point. It might be possible to design an experiment to
test whether music appreciation is better correlated with general
intelligence or auditory discrimination. I was thinking of measuring
music appreciation among bats and dolphins. A complication might be
that different species might have different ideas of what they
consider to be music.

[eridanus]

El jueves, 11 de abril de 2013 16:39:47 UTC+1, jillery escribi�:

there is a bird in the forest of New Guinea, that have the capacity
to imitate different sounds. It can imitate the sound made by the motor
of a car, the sound of a motor saw, and even the clicks of the cameras
of photographers. It is a question of verifying if the bird can imitate
a short piece of music. Rats can discriminate between two different
melodies, pressing a lever behind the green light when he hears a piece
of music, or another lever if the it sounds other melody. Another
psychologist taught a chicken to play a short melody in a toy piano.

Eridanus

[Robert Carnegie]

On Thursday, 11 April 2013 20:50:47 UTC+1, eridanus wrote:
> there is a bird in the forest of New Guinea, that have the capacity
> to imitate different sounds. It can imitate the sound made by the motor
> of a car, the sound of a motor saw, and even the clicks of the cameras
> of photographers. It is a question of verifying if the bird can imitate
> a short piece of music.

The lyrebird of Australia is an amazing mimic.

Birds do imitate other bird calls, which may
as well be music, but I hadn't heard of them
using a keyboard to do it!

[eridanus]

El jueves, 11 de abril de 2013 21:37:56 UTC+1, Robert Carnegie escribi�:

then it was a bird of Australia; norther Australia, I suppose.
But I was unsure, for I do not remembered the details of the
documentary.
A chicken looks quite a dull animal to play a short tune on a
toy piano. But with a lot of work is something possible to do
it. I am not sure how many notes a chicken can memorize, perhaps
only ten or twelve notes. Perhaps less, I did not read so many
details about this experiment.
Eridanus

[jillery]

Chicken music is nothing to crow about.
Just sayin'.

[Burkhard]

Yeah, that would be fowl play