Hygiene hypothesis

[dav...@agent.com]

Hygiene hypothesis

In medicine, the hygiene hypothesis states that a lack of early
childhood exposure to infectious agents, symbiotic microorganisms
(e.g., gut flora or probiotics), & parasites increases suscepti-
bility to allergic diseases by suppressing natural development of
the immune system. It is hypothesized that the TH1 polarized
response is not induced early in life leaving the body more
susceptible to developing TH2 induced disease. The rise of auto-
immune diseases and acute lymphoblastic leukemia in young people
in the developed world has also been linked to the hygiene
hypothesis.

There is some evidence that autism may be caused by an immune
disease; One publication speculated that the lack of early
childhood exposure could be a cause of autism.

Although the idea that exposure to certain infections may decrease
the risk of an allergy is not new, David P. Strachan was one of
the first people to formally suggest the theory in an article
published in the British Medical Journal (now the BMJ), in 1989.
In this article, the hygiene hypothesis was proposed to explain
the observation that hay fever and eczema, both allergic diseases,
were less common in children from larger families, which were
presumably exposed to more infectious agents thru their siblings,
than in children from families with only one child.

The hygiene hypothesis has been extensively investigated by
immunologists and epidemiologists and has become an important
theoretical framework for the study of allergic disorders. It is
used to explain the increase in allergic diseases that has been
seen since industrialization, and the higher incidence of allergic
diseases in more developed countries. The hygiene hypothesis has
now expanded to include exposure to symbiotic bacteria & parasites
as important modulators of immune system development, along with
infectious agents.

[SkyEyes]

Yes. The single best thing you can do for your immune system is to
arrange to get yourself born and raised on a farm.

Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
skyeyes nine at cox dot net OR
skyeyes nine at yahoo dot com

[Burkhard]

Unless you are a turkey, I guess,

[Paul J Gans]

SkyEyes <skye...@cox.net> wrote:

Yes, as long as one accepts that the survival rate is not 100%.
Of course it isn't 100% in urban areas either.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

[chris thompson]

For those of us born in urban areas, having a dog or a couple of
guinea pigs around the house seems to work just fine. It also helps if
you are not in a household where the caregiver is a bleach fanatic.

Chris

[TimR]

There was a recent article, perhaps in Scientific American, that says the hygiene hypothesis has failed to account for the data and is now quietly shrinking into the historical background.

I'm having trouble recalling specifics, but I think it had something to do with seeing the same increases in allergies in countries and socioeconomic strata that had not improved in cleanliness.

[eridanus]

El lunes, 6 de mayo de 2013 20:25:07 UTC+1, TimR escribi�:

> There was a recent article, perhaps in Scientific American, that says the hygiene hypothesis has failed to account for the data and is now quietly shrinking into the historical background.
>
>
>
> I'm having trouble recalling specifics, but I think it had something to do with seeing the same increases in allergies in countries and socioeconomic strata that had not improved in cleanliness.

all these are controversial arguments. It will take a while to settle this.

Hunter gatherers inhale a lot of smoke when starting a fire to roast
something. And the people that lived in caverns had to breath a lot of
smoke also. The smoke of firewood produces a lot bad gases, the worse
is sulphur dioxide and some.nitric oxide.

Eridanus

[Paul J Gans]

chris thompson <chris.li...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Yes. ?The single best thing you can do for your immune system is to

>> arrange to get yourself born and raised on a farm.
>>
>> Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
>> skyeyes nine at cox dot net OR
>> skyeyes nine at yahoo dot com

>For those of us born in urban areas, having a dog or a couple of
>guinea pigs around the house seems to work just fine. It also helps if
>you are not in a household where the caregiver is a bleach fanatic.

I think that research is starting to show that such a caregiver
causes more damage than be easily imagined.

[*Hemidactylus*]

This just seems disgusting, but here it goes:

http://www.webmd.com/allergies/news/20130506/want-tots-without-allergies-try-sucking-on-their-pacifiers

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2013/05/06/could-sucking-your-babys-pacifier-cut-allergy-risk/

Ewwwwwwwww!!!!!

[*Hemidactylus*]

I grew up with dogs, but have developed a mild allergy to cats. I don't
react to dogs though, which is cool with me. I can live without cats.

[*Hemidactylus*]

Those are pollutants though. It would be more important to consider the
exposure to bat guano, rat poo, bacteria in worn pelts, and rotting
fleshes. And if the cave harbors standing water there could be mold and
other stuff too.

[Tim Norfolk]

I've never seen a turkey with psoriasis.

[*Hemidactylus*]

But the deceased turkey could haunt the farm as a gobbling goblin.

[*Hemidactylus*]

On 05/06/2013 09:09 PM, Tim Norfolk wrote:

[snip]

> I've never seen a turkey with psoriasis.

Wild turkey can lead to a skin reaction though:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/alcohol-intolerance/DS01172/DSECTION=symptoms

[Walter Bushell]

In article <km8rks$q8o$2...@reader1.panix.com>,

But farming is dangerous work; wether it is more dangeous than the
drug trade, I don't know.

--
Gambling with Other People's Money is the meth of the fiscal industry.
me -- in the spirit of Karl and Groucho Marx

[SkyEyes]

On May 6, 11:14�am, chris thompson <chris.linthomp...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Let me just say that I am long past my childbearing, but if good
housekeeping is hazardous to your health, any kid born to me would
probably never die.

[Walter Bushell]

In article
<dc9329ae-13e3-496a...@pl9g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>,

You're saying Higene is another deity you don't believe in?

[Walter Bushell]

In article
<abc57c78-6d19-48c2...@e9g2000vbg.googlegroups.com>,

Burkhard <b.sc...@ed.ac.uk> wrote:

> Unless you are a turkey, I guess,

Turkeys are not born.

[Burkhard]

On 7 May, 13:39, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
> In article
> <dc9329ae-13e3-496a-a702-089c28051...@pl9g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>,

Isn't Ray strictly the person for Hi, Gene? The deity is Hygieia, and
she is easily upset when people get her name wrong, or confuse her
with Hyenas so better look out after your plumbing the next few
days..

[Burkhard]

On 7 May, 13:41, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
> In article

> <abc57c78-6d19-48c2-8d85-fb6415a8d...@e9g2000vbg.googlegroups.com>,

>
> �Burkhard <b.scha...@ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> > Unless you are a turkey, I guess,
>
> Turkeys are not born.
>

You mean they are raised - nurture, not nature,? Probably true, they
tend to vote for Christmas, silly birds, or so I've heard

[Walter Bushell]

In article
<5d0d3ac9-8678-4015...@a6g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>,

No they come to life by the Hatch act. Commercial turkeys are sired by
artificial insemination so they are only laid once.

[chris thompson]

I also grew up with dogs and I think that's why I have an allergy to
cats.

Chris

[Kermit]

My wife pointed out a paper to me some time ago that suggested a
beneficial effect only if two or more pets were in the household.
Didn't establish a causal relationship, yet, just statistical
correlation.

[Paul J Gans]

But with enough Wild Turkey you won't care.

[Paul J Gans]

Burkhard <b.sc...@ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>On 7 May, 13:41, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>> In article
>> <abc57c78-6d19-48c2-8d85-fb6415a8d...@e9g2000vbg.googlegroups.com>,
>>

>> ?Burkhard <b.scha...@ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>> > Unless you are a turkey, I guess,
>>
>> Turkeys are not born.
>>

>You mean they are raised - nurture, not nature,? Probably true, they
>tend to vote for Christmas, silly birds, or so I've heard

Too dumb to understand that they are voting against their
own self-interest?

[dav...@agent.com]

TimR <timot...@aol.com> wrote:

>There was a recent article, perhaps in Scientific American,
>that says the hygiene hypothesis has failed to account for

>the data & is quietly shrinking into the historical background.

>I think it had something to do with seeing the same increases

>in allergies in countries & socioeconomic strata that had not
>improved in cleanliness.

http://www.americanscientist.org/science/pub/why-are-asthma-rates-soaring

I think the problem is that suppressing our natural enemies
allows defective forms to persist, in addition to allowing
our numbers to keep increasing, with all the problems
that entails.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <kmbrg5$38g$5...@reader1.panix.com>,

Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:

But still turkeys are smarter than the median Republican.

[eridanus]

El martes, 7 de mayo de 2013 02:03:07 UTC+1, *Hemidactylus* escribi�:

in my home, my wife was mildly allergic. We were living in the country,
far from cities, and had always dogs, cats, even hens, and a duck.
Cats and dogs were always in the house, but both my children had mild
asthmatic problems. Specially the son, that was earlier in contact with
dogs and cats. The daughter started living in a flat in the city, where
we do not have a dog or a cat.
My son gets specially sick with pollen from the trees in Germany,
when he was studying there. A problem with the German spring. Now with
30 something years of age, he gets ill with the pollen when he travels
to Germany. He was there recently to do some works, and become rather
ill. His skin around the eyes swelled and even his hands swelled a little.
He had also problems breathing.

I can accept that allergies can have a genetic component. In times in
which the care of children were precarious, they would had die of any
of those allergies. And with them would have been buried the genes
responsible for those allergies. Today, as we care a lot for the kids,
they survive till the age of breeding.
This could be a plausible explanation.

Eridanus

[*Hemidactylus*]

Defective forms? Do you ever consider how others might interpret the
words you type or care? If it weren't for hygienic and medical
breakthroughs would you be here to type this or me to cringe in
reaction? Don't bite the hand that fed you and me or cut it off to spite
others.

[shudder]

[William Morse]

On 05/06/2013 03:25 PM, TimR wrote:
> There was a recent article, perhaps in Scientific American, that says the hygiene hypothesis has failed to account for the data and is now quietly shrinking into the historical background.
>
> I'm having trouble recalling specifics, but I think it had something to do with seeing the same increases in allergies in countries and socioeconomic strata that had not improved in cleanliness.
>

Part of this may have to do with the fact that a number of parasites
downregulate the immune system when they infect humans. The thinking is
that the immune system has evolved to be somewhat hyperactive, since it
is likely to be downregulated. These parasites are more common in
equatorial regions, which has been suggested as an explanation for why
the autoimmune disease MS is much more frequent among lifelong residents
of cold climates. But even in countries that have not improved general
cleanliness, many of these parasitic infections now receive treatment,
which eliminate the downregulation and lead to more autoimmune disease.

[Gary Bohn]

Just get your kids to play in the dirt occasionally.

[William Morse]

On 05/08/2013 04:29 PM, eridanus wrote:
> El martes, 7 de mayo de 2013 02:03:07 UTC+1, *Hemidactylus* escribi�:
>> On 05/06/2013 02:14 PM, chris thompson wrote:
>>
>>> On May 6, 2:18 am, SkyEyes<skyey...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> On May 5, 10:40 pm, dav...@agent.com wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> Hygiene hypothesis
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> In medicine, the hygiene hypothesis states that a lack of early
>>
>>>>> childhood exposure to infectious agents, symbiotic microorganisms
>>

>>>>> (e.g., gut flora or probiotics),& parasites increases suscepti-

>>>>> now expanded to include exposure to symbiotic bacteria& parasites

While I accept that autoimmune diseases seem to be a recent trend, and
may be related to hygiene, I have to say that some degree of allergic
reaction to pollen is so common that it is likely to have a more long
term evolutionary cause. My thought is that perhaps because pollen
contains a lot of DNA, it may also contain plasmids and inhaling large
quantities of it may cause potential health problems. Thus a mild
allergic reaction may be useful to expel the pollen.

[Tim Norfolk]

That would be my carpet.

[Gary Bohn]

Odd place to store your dirt. I store mine in my closet.

[Burkhard]

Bollocks, I object, refuse, reject, abuse this idea. Death is reality
today, better accept it.

[jillery]

On Thu, 9 May 2013 11:46:26 -0700 (PDT), Gary Bohn
<gary...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Odd place to store your dirt. I store mine in my closet.

Some people store their dirt under the bed.

[dav...@agent.com]

I'm not just thinking of myself & my contemporaries, but I'm looking
at the big picture, which includes everything & everybody, past
present & future, as far as anyone can see. Big difference.

[Tim Norfolk]

I don't exactly store it there, but 2 children and 350# of dog tracks quite a lot in, not to mention what comes in on shoes from the barn.

[TimR]

I had recently read Charles Mann's 1492, about the ecological changes resulting from the collision of old world and new world.

Then I found his 1491, about what the Americas were like before contact. Interesting stuff.

I don't have the book around, it was from the public library. But there was a discussion about why the locals succumbed to the Old World diseases so easily (something like 95% did not survive contact with the Europeans). It was not just lack of acquired immunity, apparently, but also an immune system tailored to react to parasites rather than bacteria. Maybe. My memory is not reliable on the details.

[Kermit]

On 9 May, 19:28, dav...@agent.com wrote:
> *Hemidactylus* <ecpho...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >dav...@agent.com wrote:

> >> TimR <timothy...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >>> There was a recent article, perhaps in Scientific American,
> >>> that says the hygiene hypothesis has failed to account for
> >>> the data & is quietly shrinking into the historical background.
>
> >>> I think it had something to do with seeing the same increases
> >>> in allergies in countries & socioeconomic strata that had not
> >>> improved in cleanliness.
>

> >>http://www.americanscientist.org/science/pub/why-are-asthma-rates-soa...

>
> >> I think the problem is that suppressing our natural enemies
> >> allows defective forms to persist, in addition to allowing
> >> our numbers to keep increasing, with all the problems
> >> that entails.
>
> >Defective forms? Do you ever consider how others might interpret the
> >words you type or care? If it weren't for hygienic and medical
> >breakthroughs would you be here to type this or me to cringe in
> >reaction? Don't bite the hand that fed you and me or cut it off to spite
> >others. �[shudder]
>
> I'm not just thinking of myself & my contemporaries, but I'm looking
> at the big picture, which includes everything & everybody, past
> present & future, as far as anyone can see. �Big difference.

David, this is a newsgroup devoted to the discussion of evolution and
extinctions. It *has occurred to most folks here that there have been
generations before us, and may be many after.

kermit

[Walter Bushell]

In article <8abd6bf7-8ff8-4224...@googlegroups.com>,

Tim Norfolk <tims...@aol.com> wrote:

> > > > Just get your kids to play in the dirt occasionally.
>
> >
> > > That would be my carpet.

> > Odd place to store your dirt. I store mine in my closet.
>
> I don't exactly store it there, but 2 children and 350# of dog tracks quite a
> lot in, not to mention what comes in on shoes from the barn.

And then there are those who store their filth on their confuser.

[(David P.)]

Kermit <freeh...@charter.net> wrote:
> dav...@agent.com wrote:
> > *Hemidactylus* <ecpho...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >dav...@agent.com wrote:
>
> > I think the problem is that suppressing our natural enemies
> > allows defective forms to persist, in addition to allowing
> > our numbers to keep increasing, with all the problems
> > that entails.
>
> Defective forms? Do you ever consider how others might
> interpret the words you type or care? If it weren't for
> hygienic and medical breakthroughs would you be here to
> type this or me to cringe in reaction? Don't bite the hand
> that fed you and me or cut it off to spite others. [shudder]
>
>>I'm not just thinking of myself & my contemporaries, but

>>I'm looking at the big picture, which includes everything >>&everybody, past present & future, as far as anyone can see.
>>Big difference.
>
> This group's devoted to the discussion of evolution and

> extinctions. It *has occurred to most folks here that
> there have been generations before us, and may be many after.

hemi wrote:
"If it weren't for hygienic & medical breakthroughs would YOU
be here to type this or ME to cringe in reaction? Don't [YOU]
bite the hand that fed YOU & ME or cut it off to spite others."

[Arkalen]

I think Hemidactylus's point is that people who consider the fate of
everyone and everything on the grand scale, and in that context decide
it is acceptable for a large number of people to die, usually
(subconsciously or not) assume they're not part of that number.

Which, given you are using your fallible, self-interested human brain to
make this oh-so-general theorizing, often has an impact on the actual
theorizing.

[Arkalen]

I also heard that one issue could be the large number of exotic plants
people grow all over the place, which means more different kinds of
pollen to trigger allergies.

[*Hemidactylus*]

I'm still stuck on the "defective forms" part. Are children still alive
due to availability of potable water and vaccinations "defective"?
Should I opt out of a tetanus shot next time so I can writhe in agony
for the betterment of humanity?

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/tetanus/DS00227/DSECTION=complications

[*Hemidactylus*]

I was also going apoplectic over your usage of the term "defective
forms". When I look back recently and see someone say what follows I
cringe::

[quote]All kids are not created equal! Nature's way affords us
better quality control. Suppression of disease just allows
substandard, defective forms to persist, so you get more
autism, bipolar, ADHD, etc. Scientocracy has a snowball's
chance in hell of working. Just like that other flop, Technocracy.[/quote]

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/talk.origins/qh43GsRPYMI/FutKDJuNmJYJ

I'm glad such public health policy decisions have been left to softer
hearts than yours.

[dav...@agent.com]

*Hemidactylus* <ecph...@hotmail.com> wrote:

You're still talking about only yourself & your contemporaries!
Not a peep about previous/subsequent generations!


>http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/tetanus/DS00227/DSECTION=complications

[dav...@agent.com]

Well, he's wrong about that. I don't exclude myself.
And the only way to establish consistently successful diplomacy,
instead of the usual breakdowns, is to follow the Golden Rule,
which means you have to allow people the freedom to speak,
trade & travel. But when you allow uncontrolled population
increase, you're impacting those freedoms belonging to
future generations.

[(David P.)]

On May 12, 6:13�pm, *Hemidactylus* <ecpho...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 05/12/2013 03:22 AM, (David P.) wrote:
> > Kermit <freeh...@charter.net> wrote:
> >> dav...@agent.com wrote:
> >>> *Hemidactylus* <ecpho...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> dav...@agent.com wrote:
>

> >>> � I think the problem is that suppressing our natural enemies
> >>> � allows defective forms to persist, in addition to allowing
> >>> � our numbers to keep increasing, with all the problems
> >>> � that entails.

>
> >> Defective forms? Do you ever consider how others might
> >> interpret the words you type or care? If it weren't for
> >> hygienic and medical breakthroughs would you be here to
> >> type this or me to cringe in reaction? Don't bite the hand
> >> that fed you and me or cut it off to spite others. [shudder]
>
> >>> I'm not just thinking of myself & my contemporaries, but
> >>> I'm looking at the big picture, which includes everything >>&everybody, past present & future, as far as anyone can see.
> >>> Big difference.
>
> >> This group's devoted to the discussion of evolution and
> >> extinctions. It *has occurred to most folks here that
> >> there have been generations before us, and may be many after.
>
> > hemi wrote:
> > "If it weren't for hygienic & medical breakthroughs would YOU
> > be here to type this or ME to cringe in reaction? Don't [YOU]
> > bite the hand that fed YOU & ME or cut it off to spite others."
>
> I was also going apoplectic over your usage of the term "defective
> forms". When I look back recently and see someone say what follows I
> cringe::
>

> [quote]All kids are not created equal! �Nature's way affords us
> better quality control. �Suppression of disease just allows

> substandard, defective forms to persist, so you get more

> autism, bipolar, ADHD, etc. �Scientocracy has a snowball's
> chance in hell of working. �Just like that other flop, Technocracy.[/quote]

>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/talk.origins/qh43GsRPYMI/FutKDJuNmJYJ
>
> I'm glad such public health policy decisions
> have been left to softer hearts than yours.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/05/09/190852/government-cant-find-room-for.html

Wild horses, descended from steeds of Spanish explorers, Native
Americans, U.S. cavalry & ranch strays, are being offered for
auction this weekend in Ft. Worth as part of a desperate effort by
a federal government that can�t figure out what to do with them.
The Interior Dept, in roundups that outraged wild horse advocates,
has taken nearly 50,000 wild horses off their Western rangelands &
paid private ranchers to put them in corrals & pastures, largely
in Kansas & Oklahoma. More of America�s wild horses are now in
holding facilities than roaming the wild.

The Bureau of Land Management says the roundups are needed because
the swelling horse populations are too much for the wild range to
sustain. Wild horse advocates say it�s really about favoring the
interests of ranchers whose cattle & sheep graze upon the public
lands.
[...]
�You have wild horses on about 11% of BLM land. But even on that
small percent the BLM still allocates most of the forage resources
to privately owned livestock,� Roy said in an interview this week.
�You�ll have management areas with the annual equivalent of 1,000
cows & 100 horses, & when the horse population reaches 125 BLM says
the horses are overpopulating. What we really have is an overpopu-
lation of cattle and sheep on our public lands.�
[...]

[Walter Bushell]

In article
<97009618-e540-44de...@r3g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,
"(David P.)" <imb...@mindspring.com> wrote:

> On May 12, 6:13 pm, *Hemidactylus* <ecpho...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On 05/12/2013 03:22 AM, (David P.) wrote:
> > > Kermit <freeh...@charter.net> wrote:
> > >> dav...@agent.com wrote:
> > >>> *Hemidactylus* <ecpho...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>> dav...@agent.com wrote:
> >
> > >>>   I think the problem is that suppressing our natural enemies

> > >>>   allows defective forms to persist, in addition to allowing

> > >>>   our numbers to keep increasing, with all the problems

> > >>>   that entails.
> >
> > >> Defective forms? Do you ever consider how others might
> > >> interpret the words you type or care? If it weren't for
> > >> hygienic and medical breakthroughs would you be here to
> > >> type this or me to cringe in reaction? Don't bite the hand
> > >> that fed you and me or cut it off to spite others. [shudder]
> >
> > >>> I'm not just thinking of myself & my contemporaries, but
> > >>> I'm looking at the big picture, which includes everything >>&everybody,
> > >>> past present & future, as far as anyone can see.
> > >>> Big difference.
> >
> > >> This group's devoted to the discussion of evolution and
> > >> extinctions. It *has occurred to most folks here that
> > >> there have been generations before us, and may be many after.
> >
> > > hemi wrote:
> > > "If it weren't for hygienic & medical breakthroughs would YOU
> > > be here to type this or ME to cringe in reaction? Don't [YOU]
> > > bite the hand that fed YOU & ME or cut it off to spite others."
> >
> > I was also going apoplectic over your usage of the term "defective
> > forms". When I look back recently and see someone say what follows I
> > cringe::
> >

> > [quote]All kids are not created equal!  Nature's way affords us
> > better quality control.  Suppression of disease just allows

> > substandard, defective forms to persist, so you get more

> > autism, bipolar, ADHD, etc.  Scientocracy has a snowball's
> > chance in hell of working.  Just like that other flop, Technocracy.[/quote]

> >
> > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/talk.origins/qh43GsRPYMI/FutKDJuNmJYJ
> >
> > I'm glad such public health policy decisions
> > have been left to softer hearts than yours.
>
> http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/05/09/190852/government-cant-find-room-for.htm
> l
>
> Wild horses, descended from steeds of Spanish explorers, Native
> Americans, U.S. cavalry & ranch strays, are being offered for
> auction this weekend in Ft. Worth as part of a desperate effort by

> a federal government that can’t figure out what to do with them.

> The Interior Dept, in roundups that outraged wild horse advocates,
> has taken nearly 50,000 wild horses off their Western rangelands &
> paid private ranchers to put them in corrals & pastures, largely

> in Kansas & Oklahoma. More of America’s wild horses are now in

> holding facilities than roaming the wild.
>
> The Bureau of Land Management says the roundups are needed because
> the swelling horse populations are too much for the wild range to

> sustain. Wild horse advocates say it’s really about favoring the

> interests of ranchers whose cattle & sheep graze upon the public
> lands.
> [...]

> “You have wild horses on about 11% of BLM land. But even on that

> small percent the BLM still allocates most of the forage resources

> to privately owned livestock,” Roy said in an interview this week.
> “You’ll have management areas with the annual equivalent of 1,000

> cows & 100 horses, & when the horse population reaches 125 BLM says
> the horses are overpopulating. What we really have is an overpopu-

> lation of cattle and sheep on our public lands.”
> [...]

Free range horsemeat would undoubtedly command a premium price on the
market. Exported to France or China it could help solve the balance of
payment problems.

[Kermit]

On 13 May, 10:51, "(David P.)" <imb...@mindspring.com> wrote:

> On May 12, 6:13 pm, *Hemidactylus* <ecpho...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 05/12/2013 03:22 AM, (David P.) wrote:
> > > Kermit <freeh...@charter.net> wrote:
> > >> dav...@agent.com wrote:
> > >>> *Hemidactylus* <ecpho...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>> dav...@agent.com wrote:
>
> > >>> I think the problem is that suppressing our natural enemies

> > >>> allows defective forms to persist, in addition to allowing

> > >>> our numbers to keep increasing, with all the problems

> > >>> that entails.
>
> > >> Defective forms? Do you ever consider how others might
> > >> interpret the words you type or care? If it weren't for
> > >> hygienic and medical breakthroughs would you be here to
> > >> type this or me to cringe in reaction? Don't bite the hand
> > >> that fed you and me or cut it off to spite others. [shudder]
>
> > >>> I'm not just thinking of myself & my contemporaries, but
> > >>> I'm looking at the big picture, which includes everything >>&everybody, past present & future, as far as anyone can see.
> > >>> Big difference.
>
> > >> This group's devoted to the discussion of evolution and
> > >> extinctions. It *has occurred to most folks here that
> > >> there have been generations before us, and may be many after.
>
> > > hemi wrote:
> > > "If it weren't for hygienic & medical breakthroughs would YOU
> > > be here to type this or ME to cringe in reaction? Don't [YOU]
> > > bite the hand that fed YOU & ME or cut it off to spite others."
>
> > I was also going apoplectic over your usage of the term "defective
> > forms". When I look back recently and see someone say what follows I
> > cringe::
>

> > [quote]All kids are not created equal! Nature's way affords us
> > better quality control. Suppression of disease just allows

> > substandard, defective forms to persist, so you get more

> > autism, bipolar, ADHD, etc. Scientocracy has a snowball's
> > chance in hell of working. Just like that other flop, Technocracy.[/quote]

>
> >https://groups.google.com/d/msg/talk.origins/qh43GsRPYMI/FutKDJuNmJYJ
>
> > I'm glad such public health policy decisions
> > have been left to softer hearts than yours.
>

> http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/05/09/190852/government-cant-find-roo...

>
> Wild horses, descended from steeds of Spanish explorers, Native
> Americans, U.S. cavalry & ranch strays, are being offered for
> auction this weekend in Ft. Worth as part of a desperate effort by

> a federal government that can t figure out what to do with them.

> The Interior Dept, in roundups that outraged wild horse advocates,
> has taken nearly 50,000 wild horses off their Western rangelands &
> paid private ranchers to put them in corrals & pastures, largely

> in Kansas & Oklahoma. More of America s wild horses are now in

> holding facilities than roaming the wild.
>
> The Bureau of Land Management says the roundups are needed because
> the swelling horse populations are too much for the wild range to

> sustain. Wild horse advocates say it s really about favoring the

> interests of ranchers whose cattle & sheep graze upon the public
> lands.
> [...]

> You have wild horses on about 11% of BLM land. But even on that
> small percent the BLM still allocates most of the forage resources

> to privately owned livestock, Roy said in an interview this week.
> You ll have management areas with the annual equivalent of 1,000

> cows & 100 horses, & when the horse population reaches 125 BLM says
> the horses are overpopulating. What we really have is an overpopu-
> lation of cattle and sheep on our public lands.

> [...]

I concur. I resent subsidizing the ranchers here in the west, by
letting them graze cattle on public land. I especially resent having
to watch for grouchy bulls when hiking on public land. If people want
to eat steak, they can pay for the full price of raising them and
bringing the good parts to the dinner plate. But to control the
subsequent horse or wild cattle population we really need to have some
predators of size roaming the plains. Good luck getting ranchers to
agree with letting lions roam the hills in Colorado; they don't even
accept wolves.

And elephants! We used to have them (their cousins, anyway), just
15.000 years ago.

kermit

[Gary Bohn]

We need to recreate some Titanis walleri

[dav...@agent.com]

*Hemidactylus* <ecph...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Arkalen wrote:

>> (David P.) wrote:
>>> Kermit <freeh...@charter.net> wrote:
>>>> dav...@agent.com wrote:
>>>>> *Hemidactylus* <ecpho...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> dav...@agent.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think the problem is that suppressing our natural enemies
>>>>> allows defective forms to persist, in addition to allowing
>>>>> our numbers to keep increasing, with all the problems
>>>>> that entails.
>>>>
>>>> Defective forms? Do you ever consider how others might
>>>> interpret the words you type or care? If it weren't for
>>>> hygienic and medical breakthroughs would you be here to
>>>> type this or me to cringe in reaction? Don't bite the hand
>>>> that fed you and me or cut it off to spite others. [shudder]
>>>>
>>>>> I'm not just thinking of myself & my contemporaries, but
>>>>> I'm looking at the big picture, which includes everything

>>>>>& everybody, past present & future, as far as anyone can see.

>>>>> Big difference.
>>>>
>>>> This group's devoted to the discussion of evolution and
>>>> extinctions. It *has occurred to most folks here that
>>>> there have been generations before us, and may be many after.
>>>
>>> hemi wrote:
>>> "If it weren't for hygienic & medical breakthroughs would YOU
>>> be here to type this or ME to cringe in reaction? Don't [YOU]
>>> bite the hand that fed YOU & ME or cut it off to spite others."
>>>
>>
>> I think Hemidactylus's point is that people who consider the fate of
>> everyone and everything on the grand scale, and in that context decide
>> it is acceptable for a large number of people to die, usually
>> (subconsciously or not) assume they're not part of that number.
>>
>> Which, given you are using your fallible, self-interested human brain to
>> make this oh-so-general theorizing, often has an impact on the actual
>> theorizing.
>
>I'm still stuck on the "defective forms" part.

Maybe you wouldn't cringe if I said "less robust immune systems",
but bottom line is you're interested in just the presently living,
and origins, and don't give a damn about consequences,
but aren't honest enough to admit it! You spend no time at all
thinking about what the world will be like with 8 or 9 billion!

[Kermit]

Do you have any evidence that Hemidactylus or any of the rest of us do
not think about this? Aside from making claims which you are not
willing to support with evidence, what are you doing to ameliorate the
coming crisis?

>
> >Are children still alive
> >due to availability of potable water and vaccinations "defective"?
> >Should I opt out of a tetanus shot next time so I can writhe in agony
> >for the betterment of humanity?
>
> >http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/tetanus/DS00227/DSECTION=complications

kermit

[dav...@agent.com]

Of course...very few of your posts are concerned with the
subject, and only when prompted.

[*Hemidactylus*]

Yeah I'm too stuck on the people alive in my time horizon to care much
about how my benign intent *might* cause calamities down the road. I
think the categorical imperative has rare merit here as your maxim
(passively let "defectives" die) pretty much sucks.


--
*Hemidactylus*

[dav...@agent.com]

There's no reason for you to take the future seriously,
because no one else is!

>I think the categorical imperative has rare merit here as your maxim
>(passively let "defectives" die) pretty much sucks.

/Everyone/ is "allowed to die" (there are no exceptions!);
it's just a question of when. The fact that you don't like it
has nothing to do with nothing. You don't like paying taxes,
but still have to do it. The popularity of an idea has no
bearing on the determination of its truth.

[Kermit]

On 17 May, 11:51, dav...@agent.com wrote:
> �*Hemidactylus* <ecpho...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > dav...@agent.com wrote:

Actually quite a few people are. They tend not to be the one making
decisions, however - those are sociopathic oligarchs and their pet
politicians.

>
> >I think the categorical imperative has rare merit here as your maxim
> >(passively let "defectives" die) pretty much sucks.
>
> /Everyone/ is "allowed to die" (there are no exceptions!);
> it's just a question of when. � The fact that you don't like it
> has nothing to do with nothing. �You don't like paying taxes,
> but still have to do it. �The popularity of an idea has no
> bearing on the determination of its truth.

I don't have to pay taxes, although I do.
I *do have to die; that's not a choice.

I am continually surprised to discover that I am not "taking the
future seriously". Do you have any evidence for that? As far as I can
tell, you do nothing but post here, which I sometimes read and respond
to. I might guess that you do other stuff, but I have no idea what
that might be.

You have not yet provided evidence that letting people die of
preventable diseases reduces the population. Right now the evidence
seems to indicate that low vaccination rates are statistically linked
to high birth rates.

I do consider this a distraction, BTW, from the very real dangers of
global warming, ocean acidification, unsustainable corporate
agriculture practices, and other looming disasters. Unless you have a
virus ready to unleash now with a *significant death rate, very high
contagion rate, etc., I don't see how any of these will reduce the
population enough or in time to do any "good" to ameliorate these
other problems.

I would, for instance, prefer to convince the general population that
anthropogenic global warming and other nonsustainable processes are an
emergency, and we should take steps while it is still possible to
reduce the effects. I don't see how letting some family's kid die of
measles will help that. And I have a hard time imagining your
convincing people to do so.

You might consider trying to take the long view sometime, and stop
indulging in death porn pseudoscience.

kermit

[*Hemidactylus*]

You're using words in a very offputting way here. There's a big
difference between allowing someone who wants to die in certain
circumscribed cases to sign a DNR or living will or even in the extreme
to say consider physician assisted suicide if they are terminal and the
prognosis is for a long painful death *versus* not allowing someone who
prefers to live access to the preventatives or treatments that
facilitates a longer life span. I don't assume anyone needs my
permission to die. I do assume a good number of people would like access
to things such as vaccinations or medications which allow them to live
longer than they would without such things. Who am I or who are you to
withhold that from them?

Would you allow people to live longer than the span of years they might
in a milieu of widespread pestilence without hygiene and vaccination?
Are Joseph Lister and Lady Montagu evil incarnate in your worldview for
what they have wrought?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Lister,_1st_Baron_Lister#Antiseptics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Wortley_Montagu#Ottoman_smallpox_inoculation

> The fact that you don't like it
> has nothing to do with nothing.

The fact I don't like it might mean that people with psyches shaped
similarly to my own might not like it either. This shared dislike for a
negative situation compels us to do something about it, like when I get
a yearly flu shot to reduce my chance of nasty illness AND reduce my
chance of spreading illness to others like elderly folks with lowered
immunity to such things. My flu shots may have saved some lives other
than my own. The more people receiving the shots, the more herd immunity
and the less effect of free riders afraid of needles or who think the
lizard people who live in underground caves are putting mind control
chemicals into the shots.

> You don't like paying taxes,
> but still have to do it.

I don't hate paying taxes. Taxes are a necessity for keeping our fiscal
house in order and the long term neglect of this need has caused us to
push debt burdens onto future generations...so I do care about the
future beyond a time when I will be here.

> The popularity of an idea has no
> bearing on the determination of its truth.

You're not talking about factual truth as much a your own moral
prescription for what ought to be done, which conflicts with my moral
system and perhaps the moral systems of countless others who read your
posts. You're fighting an uphill battle against what you perceive as
ignorance. Good luck convincing others you are right. The odds are
stacked against you...thankfully.

--
*Hemidactylus*

[William Morse]

Thanks, I hadn't thought of the influence of invasive species on allergies.

[dav...@agent.com]

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/india-decides-9/india-s-water-crisis-a-man-made-problem-with-no-solution/276047

India's water crisis: A man-made problem with no solution?
Published On: May 20, 2013 | Duration: 18 min, 43 sec

This summer as temperatures soar, the story is one of water, or rather
the lack of. There is now a complete water crisis around India. What
seemed a scenario somewhere way into the future is now a reality: from
policemen actually guarding water in western Maharashtra to officials
warning in Bangalore that more than half the city won�t have water in
10 years.

[*Hemidactylus*]

> warning in Bangalore that more than half the city won�t have water in
> 10 years.

What does this have to do with my reply to you? You may as well have
started yet another thread.


--
*Hemidactylus*

[dav...@agent.com]

It would be very difficult to enforce a ban on treatments
by doctors, but much easier to enforce a ban on vaccines.

[Kermit]

On 22 May, 10:33, dav...@agent.com wrote:
> *Hemidactylus* <ecpho...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > dav...@agent.com wrote:

> >> � *Hemidactylus* <ecpho...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>> dav...@agent.com wrote:

You have forgotten to link to the evidence which supports, well, any
of your claims.

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Would you allow people to live longer than the span of years they might
> >in a milieu of widespread pestilence without hygiene and vaccination?
> >Are Joseph Lister and Lady Montagu evil incarnate in your worldview for
> >what they have wrought?
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Lister,_1st_Baron_Lister#Antiseptics
>

> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Wortley_Montagu#Ottoman_smallpox_in...

>
> >> The fact that you don't like it
> >> has nothing to do with nothing.
>
> >The fact I don't like it might mean that people with psyches shaped
> >similarly to my own might not like it either. This shared dislike for a
> >negative situation compels us to do something about it, like when I get
> >a yearly flu shot to reduce my chance of nasty illness AND reduce my
> >chance of spreading illness to others like elderly folks with lowered
> >immunity to such things. My flu shots may have saved some lives other
> >than my own. The more people receiving the shots, the more herd immunity
> >and the less effect of free riders afraid of needles or who think the
> >lizard people who live in underground caves are putting mind control
> >chemicals into the shots.
>
> >> You don't like paying taxes,
> >> but still have to do it.
>
> >I don't hate paying taxes. Taxes are a necessity for keeping our fiscal
> >house in order and the long term neglect of this need has caused us to
> >push debt burdens onto future generations...so I do care about the
> >future beyond a time when I will be here.
>
> >> The popularity of an idea has no
> >> bearing on the determination of its truth.

But evidence does. Have any?

>
> >You're not talking about factual truth as much a your own moral
> >prescription for what ought to be done, which conflicts with my moral
> >system and perhaps the moral systems of countless others who read your
> >posts. You're fighting an uphill battle against what you perceive as
> >ignorance. Good luck convincing others you are right. The odds are
> >stacked against you...thankfully.

kermit

[dav...@agent.com]

You can't think of one thing you don't like to do,
but still have to do, in your life? Not even one?

It's not doing the things we like to do,
but liking the things we have to do
that makes life blessed. --Goethe

[dav...@agent.com]

Kermit <free...@charter.net> wrote:

> dav...@agent.com wrote:

Got any evidence that the world would've beem a better place
had there never been any communicable diseases?

[(David P.)]

dav...@agent.com wrote:

Well, THAT shut 'em up!!
.
.
--